So tired of thinking about thinking/worrying about thoughts.

[LiveAboveIt]

I cant stop thinking about my anxiety or automatically questioning every single thought I have about anything.

Its like this disgusting state of awareness and an incredibly overactive mind.. This is like every single day. Its not intrusive thoughts about anything in particular, its just a constant awareness/judgement about every thought I have or every emotion I feel..

And it feels like each thought/emotion has very rough edges and bothers me so much, because I just want to be able to think and feel like a normal person without habitually questioning every damn thing.. How the hell are you supposed to cure or manage something like this? I dont know how to break the habit of having automatic judgement thoughts and I dont know how to just not let it bother me...

Is this going to be an issue for the rest of my life, or do things like this just go away on their own? Is this OCD or just anxiety?

I know that some of this is probably due to Citalopram withdrawal, but Im just so tired of being so hyperaware and feeling like I have no control.

[Holds1325]

Hi there,

Could be OCD or Anxiety, either way they can be controlled by you if you want to.

Just a curious question, how long were you on the citalopram, if you dont mind me asking?

Did you taper off of it?

Hyperawareness is an anxiety trait, and could be linked to OCD. One thing I would do is find something that interests you (I know thats difficult at a time like this) but try and focus on that only and practice each day. Mine was a combination of videogames and exercise. I'd go do one task and force myself to focus on that only.

If the anxiety does cause panic, just surf through it like they say, it goes away quicker the moment you accept that it can't hurt you.

Remember we CAN control our thoughts it just takes practice sometimes.

Hey who knows sometimes for people it just gets better on its own, either way it will get better for you I'm sure.

[LiveAboveIt]

Hey Holds,

I'm having a tough time controlling them. I worry that I've convinced myself that it is impossible and I'm not sure how to undo that state of mind.

I initially was put on Citalopram 20mg after discontinuing Effexor XR because of severe withdrawal (anxiety/breathing symptoms/IBS) that I did not have previous to the Effexor XR. I was on Effexor XR for around 3 weeks, drug free for 4 weeks, and then on Citalopram for 5 weeks, and now have been off Citalopram for about 31 days.

Did a VERY almost non-existent fast taper from both the Citalopram and the Effexor XR. Went from 20mg on Citalopram to 10mg for 3 days and then quit.

I'm trying to use distraction, but will I ever be able to actually conquer my anxiety/hyperawareness if I am constantly afraid of it? I've tried ignoring and accepting the thoughts/awareness, but it seems all-encompassing and too powerful to handle, the anxiety is higher than it's ever been in my life.

I don't really experience panic attacks, persay. I've only ever had physical panic attacks during startup or withdrawal of medication, mostly on Effexor. But I do have moments where I have anxiety attacks my mind spins out of control.

We CAN control our thoughts, even when idle? Does medication help lower the anxiety to make this easier? I just.. I'm having trouble seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. I cant see just one day being okay with these thoughts and the anxiety, it feels almost impossible. I know this is probably just the anxiety talking, its just been really rough.

[Holds1325]

Medication helps for some, sometimes it doesn't, either way it will get better the more you endure it. I sort of take it like its some kind of fight that you don't have to be in, but you are in it, soooo you take each day, breathe it in and just go out and live. Eventually you get better at this, your brain starts not caring about it, its not objectifying the fear in your life as something relevant and therefore it very slowly begins to lose its grip.

With those suffering from anxiety disorder, we don't just have 1 or 2 days, not even a week of anxiety, we have it constantly and even now I myself although fine most times, can easily slip back into it if I let it get to me.

The anxiety/hypersensitivity-awareness etc. Is just anxiety, and your fear of it is the anxiety wanting to hold onto you. I sometimes liken long-term anxiety sufferers having a wonky fight or flight response because theres nothing to fear, nothing to worry about. There is plenty to fear in the world but, its not happening right now so why worry? Sometimes you don't really have to NOT fear it, or acknowledge it, just feel the fear, feel the worry, but don't think about it.

Basically, FEAR but not THINK, does that make sense? Sometimes it comes as a thought like "I will never be the same again" or "this will never end" then the fear comes on. Just feel it, don't let that thought go further than that.

Sometimes, it comes on as a feeling, just an overall feeling of fear and panic but no thoughts, however if you let the thoughts come in and ruminate, then begins the chain of endless anxiety.

Its helpful to put a mental stop sign, feel it, recognize it as only anxiety and then just let it happen, don't fight it and move on about your day, go about a task anything to get your mind elsewhere.

Takes practice though but if you're willing, it does help alot.

Lastly, it WILL get better either way, I promise. Post here, PM me or anyone else, you'll get through this

[MyNameIsTerry]

I think the big question with you is over how this happened and what you have done. This got much worse as you upped the Cit, you were having more severe side effects. You dropped it, it improved, but then you dropped completely so ended up in withdrawal.

It is possible to control thoughts but if this needs some medication to rebalance this withdrawal, that seems more likely to me because all the will in the world doesn't correct everything as we are talking about chemicals here and whilst we can influence their production and their countering, sometimes we need some help to do this if the cause has been medication.

Racing thoughts are not just about the neurotransmitters we often hear about, Serotonin and Adrenaline, they can be due to others such as Glutumate and this has to be countered by GABA. GABA is where the Benzo's do their work in the brain. The brain works hard to keep a balance between all these chemicals, and it does so very successfully, but it needs to keep making enough of what it needs from the precursors of these to keep being so efficient.

You won't be like this forever, you weren't born this way and taking Cit hasn't done anything permanent to your brain. What Cit does is a two part thing, the early effect being increasing levels of Serotonin in the between the sending and receiving receptor, the later effect is "down regulation" which simply is just stopping that sending receptor taking it back which means it stays in the "space" and keeps getting used by the receiving one. When you withdraw from a SSRI like Cit, all that happens is the process starts to reverse itself to put it back to how you brain had it before.

All this upheaval as caused you some problems because your anxiety has been greatly increased by the Cit and the cold turkey is causing you problems too. You may just need a little help getting your Serotonin up again, and the brain will take care of all the other chemicals anyway.

So, whilst we can control our conscious thoughts (only the conscious ones) this may be very hard if you need some support to correct the situation you have been put in. Either that or a whole load of effort & time to correct it yourself, but it's not permanent since Cit doesn't do permanent changes.

In terms of thoughts, you can control your conscious thoughts because you choose to think them. If your conscious thoughts are racing, don't get upset with yourself if you can't calm them because like I said, this is about chemicals too and those are influenced, you don't choose to increase those. So, trying to influence it the other way can mean using things like relaxation techniques or anything to encourage your thinking to be anything other than continuous and bouncing thoughts around all the time.

Unconscious thoughts, you can't control. Intrusive thoughts are the ones people most know. You don't control these and you don't try to since that's just fighting them. These can be influenced by how we respond in order to change them in the future, but this takes time.

Another form of unconscious thought is a new thing being researched called Mind Pops. These are not intrusive, but they are subconsciously triggered by something we may see, hear, smell, etc. Again, you don't control these.

You mentioned automatic judgemental thoughts, well this is getting into Cognitive Distortions then. These take time to employ but you can learn how to do it. Personally, I think with all anxiety you are feeling, this won't come right now because it's a long process of changing how you think and anxiety fights you all the way, but that's just my opinion and I'm remembering how I was in that I just couldn't seem to see it from the other side or accept anything else. Working on acceptance might help with this though, but it's hard. If this is what you are having problems with, read about them and there are Thought Records used in CBT where you do paper based exercises to counter them which may help. I'm just not sure if this is what you mean.

[LiveAboveIt]

So I continue to struggle with this issue, but I find the most alarming thing is that I appear to have become afraid of THINKING about the anxiety, in general.. Or how thoughts work. This constant metacognition issue is driving me nuts and when I discuss CBT therapy in the form of targetting specific distortions, it scares the crap out of me that this is even a thing. It makes me feel like we are all programmed robots. I feel my best when I forget about the anxiety and when I'm not thinking it through thoroughly. It's the strangest thing.. thoughts used to feel so natural, but now anytime I analyze my thought process, it just provokes anxiety in me and I don't know how to get around this issue.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I can understand how this affects you because I had something similar in terms of regularity, normality and impact - for me it was about any physical activity. Moving an arm, breathing, bending, brushing my teeth, eating, etc. Nothing feels right somehow. A sort of constant "how does this feel", "is that how it should feel" process that seemed automatic. Way too much fight or flight.

I still deal with this years on, it hasn't gone. My therapist described me as "symptom-focussed" but the reality is, it's not just symptoms, it focusses on natural feelings too. Physical pain can be amplified. I find the amplification is at it's worst in my blips where it all feels like it's in HD.

When it's like this, at it's peak, it's affecting everything you are doing all day long.

What do you think scares you about the programmed robots issue? That could be argued as a DP/DR issue but that doesn't sound right because of what else you are saying?

[LiveAboveIt]

I can understand how this affects you because I had something similar in terms of regularity, normality and impact - for me it was about any physical activity. Moving an arm, breathing, bending, brushing my teeth, eating, etc. Nothing feels right somehow. A sort of constant "how does this feel", "is that how it should feel" process that seemed automatic. Way too much fight or flight.

I still deal with this years on, it hasn't gone. My therapist described me as "symptom-focused" but the reality is, it's not just symptoms, it focuses on natural feelings too. Physical pain can be amplified. I find the amplification is at it's worst in my blips where it all feels like it's in HD.

When it's like this, at it's peak, it's affecting everything you are doing all day long.

What do you think scares you about the programmed robots issue? That could be argued as a DP/DR issue but that doesn't sound right because of what else you are saying?

I'm not quite sure how to explain it.. I feel like we shouldn't have to think about our thoughts at all and the idea that we have to retrain our brain or challenge our thought processes.. I don't know, when it gets complex it frightens me, almost as if this illness has taken away my free will. This is what I meant when I mentioned programmed robots. I feel so disconnected from my thoughts and not myself anymore and the idea that the only way out is to change my thought process when my thought process SHOULDN'T be this way in the first place is what terrifies me.

I guess I just want to naturally feel better and go back to the way I used to think without constantly worrying and monitoring every thought and everything that I feel. I was able to do this once with my Sensorimotor OCD Breathing Obsession that I had back in the day.. I came to accept it and eventually forgot about it enough that it stopped being an issue.. But I feel so disconnected from my thoughts at this point and the fact that it is mainly THOUGHTS in general now, drives me to believe that I will never be able to accept this or be okay. In a perfect world, I want to eliminate my thoughts of anxiety altogether, almost as if it didn't exist. I'm tired of thinking about it and habitually monitoring my thoughts and having to judge them or act as a TSA agent at the airport.. It gets exhausting and paralyzing. :\

Not to mention its made me feel powerless and out of control and my self-doubt has risen to unbelievable levels now that I feel as though I don't have any control over what pops into my head. I try to remind myself that it's normal and that everyone has intrusive thoughts or tends to worry/think about things they'd rather not.. I always have, but without this constant hyper-awareness.. I used to just "go with the flow" when it came to thought.. If you're sad or depressed, you're sad or depressed.. You might think about why you're depressed and try to talk yourself out of it, but it never became this complex existential thought about why you feel, why you think..

This rant probably doesn't make any sense. It's really difficult for me to explain how I feel and why it bothers me, because even I find it to be irrational but still can't seem to cope with my reactions.

[MyNameIsTerry]

It does make sense, just in a different way to me. The way I explained above was my version of what you are talking about. I would be thinking "my arm is outstretched, is this how I should now feel or am I anxious?". I would eat and it would say "should I feel like this or is this a risk?".

It's still hyperawareness, just a different way. I focussed on my bodily sensations, your focus on the subject of what thought is. It's still questioning things to ridiculous levels of detail that we just don't need to do. What we are questioning is how the body works, it's just we are making it a problem. We don't mean to, it's how our anxiety has manifested itself.

Think of a neutral example. Think about people on the HA board who find a lump. If I find I lump, my reaction is "meh". When they do, in pops the negative thinking of "Oh god, what is this lump?", "is this a risk?", "oh no, it must be cancer!!!", etc.

It's the same thing really, but what tends to separate it all is the continuous nature. Since thoughts come & go all day long, you are constantly in a trigger. Mine was the same because any movement, even breathing, was questioned. Some of the HA guys are like this, some are tortured with these thoughts day in day out, whereas some have periods of these thoughts and feel better in between. There was NO in between for me, it just stayed on high alert daily for a long time. It took ages to work out of that and years on, I still have it now just to a lesser extent. It holds me back because it will look at new activities as risks and so I find change still difficult.

Basically it's finding the off switch for this current problem. I haven't found mine yet, but I have found a way to lower it. So, I believe if you can work on doing the same, you will start to see progress. At first though, you may find yourself treading water a lot and seeing no progress, but then something will just change and it will be a little easier.

"Going with the flow". Another phrase for "being present". The whole point of Mindfulness. That could help you but it is likely to take time. Mindfulness teaches how to not control thoughts until they need steering. That's what you need to learn again.

[LiveAboveIt]

It does make sense, just in a different way to me. The way I explained above was my version of what you are talking about. I would be thinking "my arm is outstretched, is this how I should now feel or am I anxious?". I would eat and it would say "should I feel like this or is this a risk?".

It's still hyperawareness, just a different way. I focussed on my bodily sensations, your focus on the subject of what thought is. It's still questioning things to ridiculous levels of detail that we just don't need to do. What we are questioning is how the body works, it's just we are making it a problem. We don't mean to, it's how our anxiety has manifested itself.

Think of a neutral example. Think about people on the HA board who find a lump. If I find I lump, my reaction is "meh". When they do, in pops the negative thinking of "Oh god, what is this lump?", "is this a risk?", "oh no, it must be cancer!!!", etc.

It's the same thing really, but what tends to separate it all is the continuous nature. Since thoughts come & go all day long, you are constantly in a trigger. Mine was the same because any movement, even breathing, was questioned. Some of the HA guys are like this, some are tortured with these thoughts day in day out, whereas some have periods of these thoughts and feel better in between. There was NO in between for me, it just stayed on high alert daily for a long time. It took ages to work out of that and years on, I still have it now just to a lesser extent. It holds me back because it will look at new activities as risks and so I find change still difficult.

Basically it's finding the off switch for this current problem. I haven't found mine yet, but I have found a way to lower it. So, I believe if you can work on doing the same, you will start to see progress. At first though, you may find yourself treading water a lot and seeing no progress, but then something will just change and it will be a little easier.

"Going with the flow". Another phrase for "being present". The whole point of Mindfulness. That could help you but it is likely to take time. Mindfulness teaches how to not control thoughts until they need steering. That's what you need to learn again.

It makes a lot of sense.. A few years ago I severely struggled with an issue that revolved around focusing on my breathing.. Sensorimotor OCD, I guess? It was all day, everyday. And it was truly the only real symptom I experienced.. I didn't have severe anxiety and constant racing thoughts/adrenaline during this, even with as much as it scared me. Always made me feel as though my breathing was labored and uncomfortable, because I was CONSTANTLY breathing manually and just couldn't stop, regardless of how much I wanted to just let my body take it over.

Eventually I read some things about how common it was and I found it easy to take the advice of others and not be afraid of it, to which caused it to lessen and eventually I forgot. It came back often and I would struggle, but then it would leave.

Surprisingly this issue has pretty much disappeared entirely once this new bout of severe anxiety came. I'm assuming because I'm MORE afraid of these anxiety symptoms, the breathing OCD doesn't seem so scary and thus isn't around as much. I'll have small bouts of it here and there, but it literally only lasts for minutes at this point.

I wish I could do the same with the constant anxiety, but the fact that my thoughts have become the trigger seems to have made this a much more complicated issue.. With the breathing, it was easier to decide not to worry about it when I wanted to and just go on about my day once I accepted it.. But with the thoughts, even when I decide that I no longer wish to worry about it, the racing thoughts won't stop and just keep me influenced and make me feel stuck and trapped.

I keep trying to convince myself that this is just anxiety and that the racing thoughts and uncontrollable worry will eventually fade with time, but I just can't seem to find any sort of inner peace, regardless of distraction. When I did find myself becoming totally distracted by things, the new fear became that I can't forcibly become distracted. It has to be an accidental distraction, and even so, it doesn't matter because I will always be constantly plagued by the worry and thoughts when my mind is idle.. Which is bothersome because I have trouble finding motivation to do things when I'm struggling with severe anxiety and I just want to lounge around because I'm so exhausted. It's just a constant loop.

That's why I keep hoping that I can find a medication out there that will break this constant fight or flight adrenaline feeling that doesn't ever seem to leave me, so I can slow my thoughts down enough to think through everything.. So far, Clonazepam .5mg is the only thing that remotely helps me get a small breather and makes it easier to think by slowing everything down.. But it doesn't last and it's not something I want to rely on forever.

But so far, these SSRI's haven't helped with the anxiety at all. I will say that they managed to improve my mood at certain points, but never did much for the constant fight or flight state.

That's why I'm looking more towards SNRI's, because I remember Venlafaxine making me feel happy and whilst I had my breathing OCD that terrified me at the time, I just didn't care and was able to easily dismiss it. Mind you, this was the honeymoon stage on 37.5mg, so I wasn't even at an NE dosage. It wasn't placebo though, I could clearly feel that it was chemical. It didn't last long, but this gave me hope that there might be a medication out there that can help me, but maybe I just haven't found it yet.

I know I can work through this if I could just get better control over my mind and stop the constant racing thoughts. They make it so hard to think. Not to mention my memory issues makes it difficult to remember mantras and reasoning that I have already worked through on specific areas. It feels like I start at the beginning all over again, every morning.