I'm 99.9% sure that my anxiety/panic is caused by my gut

[jonchoo]

I'm 99.9% sure that my anxiety/panic is caused by a malfunction in my gut or perhaps another organ in my midriff. I'm not saying that *all* anxiety works this way (there are probably multiple different causes / types). I wont bore you with details but I've had this horrible condition for a long time and I've spent a good amount of time and money 'experimenting' on myself to find a cure or a treatment. Pretty much everything that works for me is directly or indirectly gut related. I just recently realized that I can have a massive surge of panic/anxiety come out of nowhere WITHOUT having any 'bad thoughts' at all. But I have NEVER had anxiety without gut related pain / discomfort.

Now I'm sure many of you will know how hard it is to get a doctor to listen to you (especially if you are obviously in the middle of a panic attack), and mine have been no different. Any suggestion that I make about the anxiety coming from somewhere other than my mind is met with a blank stare and a prescription for more Venlafaxine, Mirtazapine, Citalopram, Prozac, Seroxat or [insert drug du jour here]. None of them have worked unless I supplement them with my own 'blend' of OTC items).

The received wisdom is that 'irritable bowel' and other 'odd sensations' are caused by the gut reacting to the adrenaline in the system. However, I'd like to posit the following :
- there are many areas of the body that have no nociceptors ('pain' receptors)
- these organs are still capable of transmitting signals to the brain.
- signals may be created for a 'genuine' reason (inflammation, damage) or by 'faulty' nerves, but the outcome is the same
- the subconscious mind (as in the part of the mind dealing with automatic signals such as pain, breathing, digestion etc.) may interpret these signals as 'warning' signals
- the mind now has a 'warning' signal floating around but no particular 'danger' to attribute it to
- warning signals trigger the body's survival reflex (fight or flight)
- the conscious mind does what it does best - tries to find an explanation (the "what ifs" begin to cascade)
- conscious panic / anxiety ensues
- vicious cycle

Some people's anxiety can be attributed to pain / physical distress. I suppose my theory (if you can call it that) is that perhaps ALL anxiety is caused by pain or distress, but that certain forms of pain / distress are interpreted in odd ways in some people's brains.

Loperamide (Imodium) is a drug I have seen many anxiety sufferers mention. It was, in fact, the first OTC drug I discovered that helped my anxiety. Why did I try it? Because [fanfare] I had gut discomfort. Loperamide essentially puts your gut to sleep. Sleepy gut = no distress signals to the brain = no anxiety???

When I was a child they called it 'butterflies in your tummy'. In my teens it was 'eating too much junk food'. In my 20's it was 'irritable bowel'. And in my 30's it became 'general anxiety disorder and depression'.

I have scoured the internet for anything resembling the above explanation and only found a few vague mentions of 'gut flora ' , so I'm turning to you guys. Have you ever heard anything like this? Ever read a scientific study with a similar outlook? Ever had a doctor who suggested something similar? Does this sound like your own experiences?

[ErinKC]

I've read a bit about this - the connection between anxiety and IBS. I think there are more recent studies that have made this connection as one that's sort of a two way street - IBS can cause anxiety and anxiety can cause IBS. There's a very strong connection between our brains and our guts, specifically when related to the fight or flight response, so this makes sense. I have a friend who was suffering terribly with IBS symptoms for months and months. That, combined with some other behaviors signaled anxiety to me. She'd been to GI doctors repeatedly to try and stop the stomach issues. I told her she should look into treating anxiety. She thought I was nuts, but finally explored it. She started seeing a therapist and taking meds for anxiety and her stomach issues disappeared.

[Catherine S]

Did you watch the recent programme about this on UK TV by any chance? It did prove the connection between bad gut bacteria and anxiety/depression. I did wonder how many anxiety sufferers would latch on to this after it was broadcast. But it did make alot of sense and redressing the balance of good bacteria in our system could be the answer to alot of our physical symptoms.

Cath ☺

[Fishmanpa]

Even as a non-sufferer, during very stressful times like when my wife was in the hospital for two months, my gut was a mess and I had many stress related symptoms. When things calmed down, so did all the stress related symptoms. That's why I always say treating the real illness often treats the symptoms associated with it.

Positive thoughts

[ankietyjoe]

I have known for a long time that the digestive system and brain are inextricably linked. There are some suggestions in new research that shows your stomach is actually a part of your brain. This is obviously connected with age old wisdom that the mind and body are linked so that if one is stimulated, the other will respond.

There is no doubt in my mind that diet plays a big role in mental health conditions, especially as you get older (30s and onwards).

There is a kind of feedback loop. Something in your body plays up, your mind responds. Because your mind responds and you become anxious, that part of your body reacts even more. This is especially true of the stomach. I also agree that you don't have to actually sense it for the body to react. No pain is necessary for the body to know something is wrong.

Whatever the trigger however, I have found that the treatment for anxiety remains the same, and that is a kind of accepting indifference. Accepting that's the way it is helps calm the whole system down slowly over time. In my case it took 2-3 years of practising this to really feel the effects (this included daily meditation).

I've also found that intermittent fasting really helped calm my digestive system down and I only experience digestive issues now if I make stupid choices about what I eat.

I don't think you're alone in your own assessment of your mind/body connection, but I don't think any one person truly understands the complexities of the parasympathetic nervous system, leaving the patient in a situation where they have to heal themselves as much as rely on outside help.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Well, the brain & gut are essentially from the same birth tissue separated from by the Vagus nerve.

Interestingly they performed a rat study a few years back where they cut the channels. The gut uses a channel to talk to the brain and the brain uses a separate one to talk to the gut. They knew fear experiments cause communication from the brain to the gut but were not sure the other way around so they cut the channel from the brain to the cut, subjected the rats to the fear triggers and proved the gut does indeed send a fear signal to the brain via it's channel which caused the brain to react with fear.

If you want to look for info about gut bacteria and anxiety there were recent studies in the UK (I think) which used a certain commercial form of probiotics which gave a favourable outcome. Not the cheapest probiotics you can find and it is limited to this one product due to which strains (and volume)it contained.

Then there are the studies showing how mood is changed by what we eat. And further studies which show what we eat changes the make up of our healthy gut bacteria. We can eat more healthily to alter it our gut bacteria to a more healthy balance. But then this isn't much of a leap when you consider how we can do the same with our mouth bacteria to cause thrush.

When you say you are looking into whether it's your root cause it sounds like you are looking at the leaky gut issue that doctors are divided on.

[jonchoo]

Did you watch the recent programme about this on UK TV by any chance?

No, I gave up TV about 10 years ago. After about a year you realize how 'weird' everything on TV is. OT : The way TV presenters talk and act is actually quite bizarre, but you don't notice it until you unplug.
That being said, if you can remember what the program was called I'd like to see what their results were.

probiotics

I'm not convinced by probiotics. I have tried the expensive ones and they didn't seem to do anything at all (for me).

leaky gut

That's the sort of thing I'm leaning towards. But it could equally be something like inflammation.
For example, I have suffered on and off with psoriasis all my life, which is thought to be caused by undamaged skin trying to 'repair' itself for no reason (again, doctors really have no idea and just hand out steroids). If a similar thing happened in the gut you'd get small patches where the walls of the gut were (a) inflamed and (b) weaker/more likely to let the 'wrong' chemicals pass into the blood. None of this would necessarily be 'painful', but it would certainly cause plenty of internal distress that could be misinterpreted by the brain.
But as I said, I'm not a doctor and I only have myself to experiment on, which is why I'm reaching out to find people who might be in the same position. At the very least we can compare notes

---------- Post added at 07:02 ---------- Previous post was at 06:56 ----------

IBS can cause anxiety and anxiety can cause IBS

That's the vicious cycle right there. The problem is that nobody in the medical profession seems to want to believe that the chicken might come before the egg.

[Catherine S]

The programme is called Live Well for Longer on channel 4, and it was episode 4 shown just last week. The episode was titled 'Diet & Gut bacteria' and they had people tested for good and bad bacteria both before and after a month's trial diet. They also told us what the effects on our body & mind of too much bad gut bacteria can be. It was nothing scary, it just made sense.

Anxiety can be down to many different things both physical and mental, and some of us ..because of the way we react to life in general...are pre-disposed to it. I was an anxious child and was labelled as 'highly strung', and doubt that my chilhood diet had any influence, I was just a fearful child who grew into a fearful adult.

However, over the years I've learned to recognise my triggers, and for me that also includes not eating or drinking the stuff that can trigger stress in my system. The programme also talks about the stimulation of the Vagus nerve...the connection between this major nerve pathway and physical symptoms which ive been aware of and often talked about on this forum, so it was good to see it being mentioned In connection with the gut.

Anyway, if you can locate the episode it's worth a watch, you might get some useful information from it.

Cath ☺

[jonchoo]

not eating or drinking the stuff that can trigger stress in my system

Yes, but WHY does it trigger your anxiety? What is it about your body in particular that reacts badly to [food chemical x]? Why should eating [food chemical x] have any affect on your brain at all if it isn't psychoactive (eg. caffeine), poisonous, or an allergen?
I'm down to about 5 foods I can eat without triggering my gut and/or brain. There is no way all those different chemicals are getting through the gut -> blood -> brain barriers unless something is wrong with the gut.
Nobody seems to be asking these sorts of questions. Doctors are just happy with "Its all in the mysterious mind, we don't really know why or how, so have some more psychoactive drugs".

[Capercrohnj]

Well, the brain & gut are essentially from the same birth tissue separated from by the Vagus nerve.

Interestingly they performed a rat study a few years back where they cut the channels. The gut uses a channel to talk to the brain and the brain uses a separate one to talk to the gut. They knew fear experiments cause communication from the brain to the gut but were not sure the other way around so they cut the channel from the brain to the cut, subjected the rats to the fear triggers and proved the gut does indeed send a fear signal to the brain via it's channel which caused the brain to react with fear.

If you want to look for info about gut bacteria and anxiety there were recent studies in the UK (I think) which used a certain commercial form of probiotics which gave a favourable outcome. Not the cheapest probiotics you can find and it is limited to this one product due to which strains (and volume)it contained.

Then there are the studies showing how mood is changed by what we eat. And further studies which show what we eat changes the make up of our healthy gut bacteria. We can eat more healthily to alter it our gut bacteria to a more healthy balance. But then this isn't much of a leap when you consider how we can do the same with our mouth bacteria to cause thrush.

When you say you are looking into whether it's your root cause it sounds like you are looking at the leaky gut issue that doctors are divided on.

I have gastroparesis which they believe is caused by damage to the vagus nerve. It is gastric emptying delay food sits in my stomach for a long time).It causes severe nausea and pain, vomitting, lack of appetite, getting full fast, etc.

---------- Post added at 09:38 ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 ----------

No, I gave up TV about 10 years ago. After about a year you realize how 'weird' everything on TV is. OT : The way TV presenters talk and act is actually quite bizarre, but you don't notice it until you unplug.
That being said, if you can remember what the program was called I'd like to see what their results were.



I'm not convinced by probiotics. I have tried the expensive ones and they didn't seem to do anything at all (for me).



That's the sort of thing I'm leaning towards. But it could equally be something like inflammation.
For example, I have suffered on and off with psoriasis all my life, which is thought to be caused by undamaged skin trying to 'repair' itself for no reason (again, doctors really have no idea and just hand out steroids). If a similar thing happened in the gut you'd get small patches where the walls of the gut were (a) inflamed and (b) weaker/more likely to let the 'wrong' chemicals pass into the blood. None of this would necessarily be 'painful', but it would certainly cause plenty of internal distress that could be misinterpreted by the brain.
But as I said, I'm not a doctor and I only have myself to experiment on, which is why I'm reaching out to find people who might be in the same position. At the very least we can compare notes

---------- Post added at 07:02 ---------- Previous post was at 06:56 ----------



That's the vicious cycle right there. The problem is that nobody in the medical profession seems to want to believe that the chicken might come before the egg.

Psoriasis is often an autoimmune response. Inflammatuin in the gut (especially Crohn's and UC) are autoimmune diseaaes. If you had stuff leaking through your intestinal walls you would be very very ill. Plua intestinal inflammation is very very painful.