OCD

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Andy,

Yeah absolutely. Its not something I've ever researched to be honest but I know I have this happen to me. I've mentioned before on OCD threads how as you recover and break the chains in these thoughts, you end up artifacts or just pieces of them that you still need to work on, yet cause no anxiety. I have some touching routines that cause me no anxiety at all yet I still do them.

Another member who had largely recovered, to a degree more than I have, said that he also had this.

The thing is, compulsions are part of the chain but they are associated with the obsession in the brain. So, I think that perhaps we remove the anxiety yet still have the ritual in place that becomes what other people would just refer to as a habit, a normal habit. You still work on getting rid of it, but at least it isn't part of countering anxiety so its easier, its just a bit weird that its there when it serves no purpose.

Another possibility is that we become so used to be anxious that bit becomes our new normal. Then when you have a good day, you question what it is you are even feeling and bring the anxiety back. This is part of the recovery, or at least has been for me and it gets easier and the better periods get longer as you question them less. Its called Schema Bias. Schemas (beliefs) become biased in favour of being anxious, so anything outside of that is now abnormal. I wonder if when this happens, some of these thoughts shift so that we don't really feel as anxious about them? Like we kind of habituate in a negative way, if that makes sense? I'm not sure, its just something I wonder about.

But yes, I do think we can desensitise. I think as well that as part of recovery, you will notice changes in some of these obsessions and rituals and you may start to see them decouple as mine did. Maybe this is what you are feeling right now? Because you are going the right way with how you are trying to cope with the thoughts, by not surpressing them, you just have to be accepting and non judgemental from there.

Your therapist can shed more light on it, but I don't think you should worry about it.

There have been several threads on here by people having a feeling of 'liking' the thoughts and then their anxiety would kick in, not because of the thought as they used to but from the fact they think they may have 'liked' it. This is also something you may experience, I no I have, but I've seen it on several OCD threads with the same theme as yours.

Maybe you can change sexuall preferences throughout life, I don't know. What I do know is that children are not part of sexual preference and we've discussed how the fact you feel the way you do means its OCD, nothing more sinister.

Let me also spin it another way for you. There are different ways to treat this form of OCD, the way you doing now and if you did some Googling (including on here) you will come across some people who, under the guidance of their therapist, actually practicing 'liking' these thoughts in a cognitive sense. I think the idea is to remove the anxiety first and then you must have to work with the therapist from there. I don't knwo much about this, and I'm wary of it given the theme, but if therapists use that method then it must be beneficial in recovery. Using your logic, your concerns over changing to want these thoughts because they are who you are, then wouldn't all these people be turned into paedophiles by their therapists? Why aren't their therapists struck off and facing some form of criminal charges? Do you see what I am getting at there?

[AndyJ73]

Hi Terry,

Again, thanks for a very detailed response.

I see exactly what you are saying. I guess I need my therapist to help with this. We've been practicing the 'scenario A' vs 'scenario b' method, where scenario a is all the thoughts of being a monster and scenario b is that is just amxiety playing its tricks. The hardest part of that is accepting scenario b only, as it can be easy to think 'what about scenario a tho...'.

The main thing for me is reminding myself that this was brought on and not something I've struggled with through life. Even up until a week or so ago I could use my phone without worry. It's that worry, in terms of ease of typing something, which has snow balled. I don't even want to, its just the fact of the thiught appearing everytime I use my phone, which is distressing.

Thanks again

[MyNameIsTerry]

You will get there Andy, its just a ton of hard work but the alternative is being stuck like this so its well worth putting it in, even if you start to get some respite because it will come as such a relief to you when when you stop spiralling.

You mean one of these? http://psychology.tools/theory-a-theory-b.html

They are good because so many people tend to spiral in their thoughts. You see this a lot on the HA board where people are being drawn in more & more by their fear but to an outsider it can be plain as day that their worry is about nothing of consequence. HA is similiar to OCD as well, I've seen articles discussing whether its more a subtype of OCD, so these kind of things are good to get them taking control of the situation.

Its not easy though. I remember when I started CBT, I thought "how on earth will writing down the logic change it, I already know its irrational?". This is hard. People who can't see the logic will find something like Theory A/Theory B good and find when a therapist does an example that they go "oh yeah, that makes sense" and you see this on the HA boatd loads. I think the challenge is those of us who are naturally more logically because we tend to know but just can't seem to accept it.

I know after a period in CBT, this started to change for me. I still had it for some areas but for others I found myself more open to this. I think that just comes with the work.

I also found the Mindfulness really good. I don't think I would have made the progress without hence I mention it on here quite a lot incase it could help someone else.

You will probably find that you will do some exposure work at some point as well. Sometimes actions really do speak louder than words when it comes to the subconscious, you have to prove to it that there is no danger. This is hard at first, its fear provoking, but this one definately does get easier and is more visible to you than things like the Theory A/Theory B if you are ok on the logic side because you get to experience the fact things are ok via habituation as opposed to just knowing they are ok and trying to get your subconscious to understand it.

Don't worry about the spiral Andy. Its done. Concentrate on what to do to get better and you won't spiral further. Then you will start moving forward as well and the progress with give you confidence. I'm betting right now you've got thoughts like "I will be like this for the rest if my life", "there is no way out of this, its too hard", etc. I've been there, and as you recover you still have phases of this, its all bumps in the road but you get better at managing them. At first, its just too much. Do the small things, you may not feel they are helping but thats not always the point, because you don't know whether your subconscious is noticing them and building those new neural pathways. Honestly, after 6 months doing daily Mindfulness meditation, I suddenly felt strangely different, more positive and optimistic. I put this down to the work going on in the background and then your focus is suddenly on it and you realise that something has changed. Thats one of the reason I speak highly of Mindfulness, its been proven with MRI scans to make physical changes to the brain in not only the fear centre (the right Amygdala) but other areas such as the hippocampus (also part of the fear and memory storage issue) and the inula (which I think is more about compassion). So, you get a two-fold effect.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Andy,

I was posting on another thread and thought about you because of something I thought relevant to how you have issues with whether your intrusive thoughts have a deeper meaning about yourself.

Have you ever considered that adult toy & clothing companies sell items of clothing to allow women to dress as schoolgirls? These are typically provocative in appearance or name or may appear like the St Trinians styles ones.

Are the men who ask their partners to wear these active or future paedophiles? What if a woman wore this to surprise her partner, would he be uneasy because of what it could imply?

If these uniforms made for adults were linked to paedophilia, they would very quickly be defined in law and banned from sale.

The men who have that fantasy with their partner do not consider themselves paedophiles and there is no link to them changing their attitudes to the opposite sex.

You never asked for your intrusive thoughts, they were triggered by reading an article. You did not read the article for pleasure.

So, doesn't that mean that your chances are even lower than these men who have these fantasies with their partners?

Is that something that you can use to rationalise with?

If you ever had such fantasies about adult women like that, it also means nothing otherwise it takes us back to the issue of the items on sale.

[AndyJ73]

Hi Terry,

Thanks very much mate, that means a lot. I have never been interested in any of that kind of stuff. I've also been using evidence to try and prove to myself that I'm not who I say I am. I went on holiday with friends and their child. Nothing untoward, nor any inappropriate thoughts. I also used to train youngsters to play football, again nothing untoward.

I just worry that this experience has changed me. Weird as it sounds, all of the uncertainty and questions have shaken me to my core. The harder I seem to fight the stronger the thoughts seem to come.

Weird eh?

Thanks again.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Andy,

That's interesting because from reading around about this kind of thing, it often seems to be parents. I wonder if because you have similar characteristics in that you gave your time to coach & teach, showing a dedication to children, whether that is significant?

This Pure O stuff seems to go for the throat by finding what it is that would most shock you.

I think that's good evidence because surely a paedophile would have feelings in those situations? You never noticed anything, and I think you would have known before these situations anyway, so it proves it.

It takes time to retrain the brain, it never got retrained this way over night.

Fighting doesn't work, it just reconfirms it as valid. Remember that diagram? Fighting it is more about taking the correct steps without causing further anxiety or habituation if in ERP.

[AndyJ73]

Hi Terry,

I don't have children. My other half is desperate to though. Given how I've been feeling, it's the last thing on my agenda at the moment.

I think I've experienced possibly the worst OCD and anxiety there is. Socially and morally abhorrent. I keep punishing myself, but it's hard to control your thoughts. In fact I know that you can't, with the pink elephant and all that. The thing is, my thoughts seem to stick regardless of trying to stop them or allowing them.

Like you say, this has been engrained in my mind for the past nine months. It's probably going to take time to get over it.

Thanks again

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Andy,

Yeah, I can understand that and its perhaps best to get a handle on this first but thats firmly an issue between the two of you to decide upon.

Whilst you don't have children, you obviously have an affinity for them by volunteering your time to coach & train. I think your anxiety has searched for what will shock the most and knowing the affinity, its easy for it to scare the life out of you with these thoughts.

I found this for a while with my OCD. You do the rationalisation, you stop the rituals or cut them down but its still in there pushing you. I think this is about perseverence though. The subconscious has to be retrained and its going to take time practicing more healthy ways of thinking so that it catches up. Its like how it happened. You read an article, it scared you and it went from there but it intensifies over time which and you have to dismantle it which means it will likely reduce in stages, but by bit, brick by brick.

It is a bad one. Its also pretty common yet still pretty unknown. I think the level at which it affects you depends on some of your characteristics as well such as whether you have children of your own mixed in with the thoughts. Can you imagine the parents, and it happens to men & women, who start to feel that way about their own children? It must make them worry they will abuse them (but they won't)

There are so many ways anxiety can do this to us. Look at Sensorimotor OCD, you spend the whole day manually breathing, so its just non stop and everyday is making it more entrenched by reinforcement. Then there are the HA guys on here, its debated whether HA should be a subform of OCD as it shares so many characteristics, who are terrified they are dieing of cancer or something equally horrible or worse. There obsession drives them to Google when they know what they will find will scare them.

[AndyJ73]

I think my main issue at the minute seems to be centred around using my phone and the Internet.

What feels like an impulse has (I hope) been driven from a 'what if'. Which isn't particularly nice at all. I've fallen in to the old trap of avoidance too. I deliberately let my phone reduce its battery to the point I know it will run out during the day at work and not have a charger there. It brings me relief knowing I won't have the thoughts durimg the day. Although I cant work out what this actually means for me. Unfortunately I've also been using suicidal
Fixation as a way of getting clarity. So saying to myself 'if anything ever happened, you would have to kill yourself'.

I've been unfortunate in my therapist being off for three weeks, so won't see her again until next Thursday.

[MyNameIsTerry]

You need to change that because the evidence all points to the fact you never will do anything. By using a statement like that, its almost admitting that you are capable and whilst I don't know whether that constitutes a reinforcement, its certainly not going to tell your subconscious its not valid. I don't think this is an unnatural thought though, I reckon a lot of us have said things like that to ourselves.

I think you should discuss the issue of the internet because you need to be able to feel comfortable being around it. You also need to be able to be unaffected by future stories about this subject because you are going to struggle with the media otherwise. I would expect your therapist would at some point use Exposure Response Prevention (ERP) for a lot of this so that you habituate to the stimulus.

I've often thought that a big part of OCD is a lack of self trust. I've thought this because of the checking rituals and I know I tended to double check before. Your case makes me think this even more because you are removing technology on the basis that you don;'t trust yourself not to suddenly want to do something that you know is wrong.

Do you know about ERP?