Do any of you have intrusive thoughts?

[Bonnibelle]

That's great, thanks Terry.

Your posts have really helped, thank you for taking the time to reply to me. I know i shouldn't reassurance seek but sometime you need to hear you're not alone in it and trust it is anxiety causing the thoughts.

I love mindfulness and how you describe knowing it was helping you gives me hope that in time I will feel that way too and I will see my thoughts differently to how I do now.

The thing I struggle with is that I am still scared of the thoughts meaning I am suffering with something far worse than anxiety. I still get the thoughts and sometimes the image in my head with the thought and I feel very on edge around those I am having the thoughts about. It's tough at times, I just wish I knew how to react better. I have tried so many times to just let them be there, and be ok with them but it's hard when you're a mum. I feel very on edge with the thoughts around.

Thanks again for helping me out

Bon

It again makes sense though if you think about it Bon, anxiety knows when to pull the trigger as it knows our weak points. This is why its so important not to run from that situation or avoid it later because it will reinforce itself off that.

I'm glad to hear a GP say that, it sounds like yours has some experience dealing with this.

In the NICE guidelines they tend to try therapy first and combined therapy with meds later. Anxiety can be severe enough to stop therapy getting anywhere so by introducing a med they bring the anxiety down just enough to give you that control back so you can progress through therapy. So, I think it was the same principle with my issues, reduce the one propping up all the rest and you get enough control back to work under your own steam.

When these thoughts come, don't judge them and use the curious awareness Mindfulness teaches. If you are new to it, it will come with practice.

I didn't feel it working for over a month and then I started thinking slightly differently about things and it went from there. I had some eureka moments too where things just seemed to click and I understood. I can remember when I was out walking once and just felt like I wanted to sit on a grass bank next to a stream. I sat, felt the grass, watched the insects, listened to the birds, etc. I felt the free and I hadn't felt that in years. It happened a few times that week and then not again but ever since I have had lesser feelings of that freedom and felt more comfortable. After 6 months I suddently felt my attitude change to greater compassion too.

If you want a weird example of a moment of realisation, I have one. I suddenly felt quite woosy and thought I had better head to the toilet downstairs as I felt sick. When I got there I ended up on my knees being sick and the strangest thing happened, I felt a thought come that said "ah, so this is how nausea truly feels and how you would be sick" and from that day on I have never had my nausea issues again. I had a stomach bug for the next few days and despite that I felt somewhat pleased due to this realisation.

I still get the odd bit of nausea but its not due to anxiety anymore.

---------- Post added at 13:59 ---------- Previous post was at 13:57 ----------

Thank you NoPoet.

That's what I have been told, these thoughts are the opposite of who we are and that should reassure me that I am not my thoughts. I also was told everyone gets them. I think that's true but mine have lasted 16 months and been daily. I may have less anxiety surrounding them now but I do wonder why I can't be fully ok with them.

Bon

What we need to keep in mind is that intrusive thoughts upset us so much because they are the opposite of what we really want. The emotional distress comes from our rejection of these thoughts, but because we fight so hard against them, our subconscious keeps projecting them; it's like a dog fetching a stick that you're trying to chuck away.

Try to keep in mind that intrusive thoughts exist for everyone, whether or not they're ill, but people with anxiety issues treat the thoughts seriously instead of simply thinking "What the hell was THAT crap?"

---------- Post added at 14:00 ---------- Previous post was at 13:59 ----------

Thank you very much Harvestmouse.

Mine have always been about myself and my family, I find it very difficult to be ok about them. I've also had them for 16 months now, I have less anxiety around them but I am still scared by them somewhat which is frustrating.

Bon

Yes I have them, they can be very scary but they are thoughts and even though they are there they are not controlling us, they pass.

[NoPoet]

It's those eternal questions - "If I keep having these thoughts, why don't I lose my fear of them?" and "If I don't want to think these things, why do I keep on thinking them?"

Maybe it's because on some level, we do believe them. This isn't the same as meaning they are true, and it doesn't mean we want them to be true. Maybe this whole thing is nothing more than cognitive dissonance, which is the weird, internal conflict we get when we have two beliefs that contradict each other. (e.g. "I know I'm not seriously ill, but I believe I'm seriously ill.")

Maybe it's not so much the thoughts that create the problem. After all, they may really be nothing more than symptoms of anxiety. Maybe what really upsets us is that we know a part of ourselves believes the thoughts. Maybe THAT'S what gives the thoughts their power over us, and maybe it's why we never really adapt. If this is true then the thoughts themselves are inconsequential. We need to eradicate that fearful belief that they may be true, and that is what will stop the thoughts from coming, or reduce their impact on us to normal levels.

It's a theory at this point but it seems to fit.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Don't feel bad about reassurance, Bon, its gets a bad rap on here but its something all people do in all areas of their life. Its only an issue when its a response to the obsession so it becomes a compulsion/ritual as it just reinforces it. People ask others to check their work for them if they are unsure or someone asks another to have a quick look to see if their understanding is correct.

So, like everything else its not that reassurance is bad, its that its used excessively. Like everything else in anxiety, normal behaviours get dialled up & down.

You are doing the right thing, don't be tempted to leave that situation as avoidance sends a strong message to the subconscious. These explain it:

http://psychology.tools/thought-suppression.html
http://psychology.tools/intrusive-th...-metaphor.html

Can you see how avoidance tells the subconscious it is doing its job right? So, despite being anxious staying in a situation, its better than sending than sending the subconscious another option to play with since it already knows staying in the situation is connected to anxiety. Add more into the equation and things get harder to overcome.

Aside from the non judgemental method, there is also the Cognitive Reconstruction method. Here is a link to some tools used in CBT to change this:

http://psychology.tools/cognitive-restructuring.html

[jonjones]

Hi Bon,

I used to get terrible intrusive thoughts, especially if I´d just woken from a nap. And I´d get so tense, I just couldn´t shake them off. It was just pure anxiety.

Now however I can think the same thought on purpose and there´s not prob, they just melt away.

It was mental and emotional fatigue, together with tension that was causing me the problem. Once I learned to relax and not tense against myself when I had the thoughts, and take deep breaths, exhale slowly, and float, let go of myself and loosen up, and let the thoughts be there then I lost my fear of them.

Fear of them is what gives them energy. If you consciously think the thought but dont add fear to them then you will see that they have no effect. You see them for what they really are, words of the alphebet put together to make sentences. Whats so scary about that?

Once you start to see it like this then the power of the thoughts loses their hold on you!

If I could offer some advice it would be to let go, sag, loosen up, deep breaths, let your shoulder, arms, tummy muscles fall, go limp, and float.

Best,

Jon

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Bon,

I noticed your OCD thread has come down. If you weren't getting many responses its probably because its a quite board on NMP to be honest. I can promise you that I have seen lots of parents talk about intrusive thoughts, many off this website so if you are not getting what you need on here go a Google search for it and you will see the other forums out there discussing it. Also, you can view the forum on OCDUK's website without signing up (a few of their boards are locked to registered members only) so you should find a lot more on there. You could also look at Steve Seay's articles on intrusive thoughts because he tends to have a lot of people adding comments underneath them and I've seen some of them are parents.

[Bonnibelle]

Thank you Poet. That is a good theory :-)

JonJones - Perfect words, thank you. I cried a little reading that.

I do notice that they seem to come when I am highly anxious. Yesterday I watched a film and it had some horrible scenes in it. Afterwards I felt very anxious and had intrusives near my children, I didn't like being left alone with them. So I then noticed the high anxiety and intrusive connection. I guess it's good I can observe it now.

Also, my big issue is that I get images in my mind with the thoughts if my anxiety is very high and it's during those moments I will be sat with my child and I think oh no am I going to act on it, and I panic and sometimes walk out the room or go and keep busy. I wish I knew how to lose my fear of that. Thoughts themselves I can but the scary images with the thoughts scare me alot. I have been told they are the same as thoughts, it's just your mind imagines the thing you are thinking. I then worry I am not normal which fuels my fear I am a danger. I wish I could cope better with those moments as to be honest they are what keep me scared of my intrusives. Any advice?

The thoughts I can just accept now and I can have days where I am noticing that I didn't have them that often but on the days where I am so scared of them and if I am alone and have the images I just panic inside and my fear of them returns.

During my CBT/ERP I was told to write the script out and read it to myself daily of the very thought i was thinking. I must admit reading that 10x a day did lessen the impact. Sounds just like what you have suggested.

Thanks for your helpful reply.

Bon.

---------- Post added at 14:31 ---------- Previous post was at 14:22 ----------

Hi Terry

Thank you so much. Sorry it's taken a while for me to reply, I haven't been about that much and also I have had a little health scare so I have taken a break from the internet.

Good links, I shall have a proper read through them now. Thank you.

If you see my reply above to Jon, what I am left with now after 18 months of intrusives is the way I don't cope with the images. I have thoughts and I can be ok with them, they are just thoughts but for example last night. I was feeling some anxiety after watching a film with a few upsetting scenes in it (I should know better than to watch anything that makes me jumpy lol) and my daughter sat next to me chatting adn I had intrusives of what if I lashed out and hurt her, which then I see in my mind. I then feel agitated and need to move away from her. It's those moments i hate and I still react badly too. I know thoughts are just thoughts but the images scare me, I have been told it's just a movie script likening and the image is just the mind imaginging what you are thinking. But the way I feel in those moments freaks me, I get scared because I am imagining it in my mind then I am about to do it. I feel a rush of agitation/panic, it makes me feel horrible.

So yes it's that I can't seem to get over. I have made huge improvements but how can I react better to that? I add so much fear to those moments as I fear they mean I will just lose control and act on those thoughts/images. I then worry is it anxiety, or something far worse if i get images in my mind with my thoughts. I told my therapist this months back and she said the images were no different to thoughts, it's just the imagination She said they are the same thing and part of OCD.

I still worry though

If I could overcome this fear, or not add fear to it and truly believe that I am ok then I could brush them off like I can the thoughts alone. I read things like you are not your thoughts, you cant control your thoughts but you can your actions but I get scared what if I lost control because when the anxiety and agitation hits I feel horrible inside and it freaks me out I am not in control. I know people say we are and that's just adrenaline flooding the body, but it still frightens me alot.

Thank you for your help.

Bon

Don't feel bad about reassurance, Bon, its gets a bad rap on here but its something all people do in all areas of their life. Its only an issue when its a response to the obsession so it becomes a compulsion/ritual as it just reinforces it. People ask others to check their work for them if they are unsure or someone asks another to have a quick look to see if their understanding is correct.

So, like everything else its not that reassurance is bad, its that its used excessively. Like everything else in anxiety, normal behaviours get dialled up & down.

You are doing the right thing, don't be tempted to leave that situation as avoidance sends a strong message to the subconscious. These explain it:

http://psychology.tools/thought-suppression.html
http://psychology.tools/intrusive-th...-metaphor.html

Can you see how avoidance tells the subconscious it is doing its job right? So, despite being anxious staying in a situation, its better than sending than sending the subconscious another option to play with since it already knows staying in the situation is connected to anxiety. Add more into the equation and things get harder to overcome.

Aside from the non judgemental method, there is also the Cognitive Reconstruction method. Here is a link to some tools used in CBT to change this:

http://psychology.tools/cognitive-restructuring.html

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Bon,

Those links will be useful to you because they explain how our reaction can reinforce it. Leaving the situation for instance, is one that will reinforce the thoughts so its worth staying in that situation so that you don't send those signals.

Don't try to suppress them either, that has been shown in some studies to have a paradoxical effect and cause us to focus on them more.

Distraction techniques can also be a no-no in OCD if practicing ERP.

From reading about some of this in the past I've seen therapists advise to use methods such as sitting with a person in that danger catagory and actively thinking the thoughts. Its an exposure technique. I can't say I've ever thought this to be a good idea (with POCD mostly) as it means you engage with the thoughts but therapist obviously understand it to work without a detrimental effect so it must be useful. In ERP they also do this by telling you to think the thoughts to purposely make yourself anxious so that you can then practice seeing the anxiety decrease after the 20-30 minutes where anxiety seems to start to drop.

I have also read about treatment of Sensorimotor/Somatoform OCD where they use Mindfulness as the environment for creating these thoughts consciously so that you can then examine them in a non judgemental way. This would need to be in meditation form then. This seems worthwhile since its not really engaging, just observing without judgement or reaction. This might be a gentler way of inviting the thoughts as you will be in a controlled calm state.

Images are more provocative than simple thoughts alone. You've resolved the simple thoughts, you can do this too but its just a bit more detailed than you would like and actually seeing yourself doing something seems more real. They are right, its just a thought, intrusive images are just the same as intrusive thoughts.

---------- Post added at 10:38 ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 ----------

Hi Bon,

I was adding a link to some tools for someone else and came across a useful page with tools that gives examples of how to conduct a Behavioural Experiment to test the Cognitive Bias issue. It includes one for harm around others so this coule be useful to you. I would also suggest reading section 3.

http://self-help.tools/obsessive-compulsive-disorder/

It may also be useful to drill down your intrusive thoughts this way:

http://media.psychology.tools/worksh...ocd_en-us.pdf?

Perhaps you will discover some themes? These beliefs can then be worked on, something Davit's "Core Beliefs" thread on the Panic board has a load of tools for. You could also use Thought Records to write down evidence against the thought. There are various Thought Records on this link http://psychology.tools/download-the...orksheets.html