SAMe for depression

[SADnomore]

I found the link below when researching supplements, and from that link, on to look at SAMe (2nd link). I have decided to try to augment my antidepressant with natural supplements, in an effort to keep the dose down this winter. Being able to make do with less, if possible, was suggested to me as a strategy against "poop out". I don't know how much this strategy has been studied or anything ... but I figure it's worth a try. And if, down the road, my medication poops out anyway, I will have a natural protocol to follow once that's resolved.

For those of you not taking psychotropics who are trying to cobble together such a natural supplement protocol, the first link may be helpful. And for those of us who need an extra boost and would rather not take yet a higher dose or yet another medication, the second link provides some food for thought!

http://www.omegavia.com/supplements-...ssion-anxiety/
and that link for SAMe,
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/....2009.09081198

It's true, it's true, SAMe is very expensive, but it has applications for pain and more, as well.

As for "B vitamins", I have finally found a tonic that doesn't make me anxious (I actually feel calmer since taking it), and gives me lots of energy, too! This is the first time I have been able to take a B supplement without stomach upset, and I love the effects! (Take it before meals). NOTE: cannot be taken with MAOIs. I take an SNRI (Effexor) and have taken it for a couple of weeks, works great for me already!
http://www.avogel.ca/en/herbal-remed...ath-elixir.php

Marie

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Marie,

I've just a scan of some of this, the first one is a lot to go through and very helpful.

Are you working with your doctor to add in SAMe? Or just starting small? It doesn't have interacts with Ven, which seems a bit strange when it does interact with some SSRI's, why is that? Is it a matter of SSRI's doing more Serotonin whereas SNRI's being a half & half hence not as potent on the Serotonin? (I've never looked into that so have no clue about it).

I know I've seen SAMe products but I've never really looked any further with there being that many brands of things to try out there.

There no interactions for my Duloxetine either. So, one for the possible list there, thanks

Thanks for the Omega 3 link. I can never remember whether it's EPA or DHA and that will save me saying this on every post from here on! I guess it's a matter of understanding what the impact of the DHA is and whether you can top up the EPA without the DHA affecting it (my product is combined of equal value, but I could add EPA on top if it helped). I'm interested in Omega 3 as it has certainly helped with balancing my moods than the current med ever has but cost is an issue for meat the moment as some of them are so expensive.

Psychobiotics, eh? I'll definately be reading about that one over the weekend. I'm all up for probiotics and making my own when I get chance to start the batches running.

I asked you on another thread but I think you might have missed it, whats the story with the Serrapeptase? I've got some of that as I read it helps with asthma so I thought it worth a try as all doctors do with us asthma sufferers is throw more meds at us and ignore all the stuff the charities are telling us to do. I've got a standard product, not one of those really strong ones they use but I've read it's very credible and used in some surgeries in is it France or Germany?

Glycine is on your list. Seems interesting. Not read much about using that but I know it's a neurotransmitter.

Creatine is an interesting one. Creatine is very very safe and used by many millions of people for sport. It does have some side effects but there are ways around the gastro ones. It can make you short of breath so I will have to be careful with that one with my asthma but I used to take it years ago when I was training. I want to start training again and using this anyway so those studies will be a useful read as I can get the best of both worlds out of that.

Thanks for sourcing this stuff.

[SADnomore]

Okay, more on SAMe: I am finding doctors recommendations to try to find 100 mg tablets of SAMe, or else to split the tablets in half, as, indeed, less is more with many people getting satisfactory benefits from just 100 mg daily, or even just 3 times per week. As an aside, I see that my tablets are enteric coated, which is what we want with such supplements intended to pass through the blood-brain barrier to do some good. Therefore I imagine that cutting the coating will subject the contents to stomach acids and render it much less useful. The recommendations of taking one 200 mg tablet with breakfast or up to half an hour beforehand, and for no more than two days in a row, are meant to alleviate possible side effects of insomnia, anxiety and gastrointestinal issues.

It seems that its very effectiveness calls for caution in the use of SAMe. It seems best suited to a protocol for those who are not taking prescription antidepressants and want to include it in a natural regimen, for mood enhancement. Since positive effects can be expected by the two-week mark, it does seem to be worth speaking to one's doctor about!

Cautions abound on two points: SAMe, like some pharmaceutical antidepressants, is not to be taken by those with bi-polar disorder. And, it is not to be taken by those on MAOIs.

For those who have intractable depression, the second link to that shows it to be effective as an adjunct to other drug therapies in relieving treatment-resistant depression is heartening.

Mine is not intractable, I am getting relief from Effexor. So it seems that my doctor would need to concur that SAMe should be taken just in an effort to keep my Effexor dose low. I know that I do feel side effects on startup and dose changes of any medication I have tried, and wouldn't want to increase those with the addition of ANY supplement.

I have also found EPA to be really helpful with mood, especially since I have bumped up to two doses per day. I take a flavoured fish oil liquid to which I add my vitamin D drops, then usually follow it up with a magnesium capsule because magnesium requires vitamin D to work. On the other hand, I just read that magnesium doesn't like fat, so, I will be splitting it off from the omegas and D drops. ...

I hear you about the DHA and will probably add a plain EPA capsule to bring my dose up to 1000 units, rather than add more of both in an extra fish oil dose. *correction: on reflection I realize that eating fish at least twice a week will no doubt cover me off for that

Serrapeptase: well, I am happy to report that it is proving to be effective on my arthritic pain! I do take the 120,000 unit capsules because it is something that was advised as working best in high doses to establish blood levels, then reducing as pain subsides. In fact, I am now proceeding to finish the rest of the bottle by taking 4 capsules per day, then switching to 90,000 for a couple of weeks (splitting a bottle with my sister), then on to 60,000 capsules. These are all enteric coated, and taken on an empty stomach, always. The idea is that for acute pain and for start-up, you want to hit it hard with the high dose, then work down to where you have a maintenance dose of 60,000 units 1 to 3 times a day. The lowest dose is the cheapest, I have found them for less than $40. for 120 capsules, on regular sales at the health food store. Because of its systemic application against inflammation body-wide, it makes sense to take it all the time. The breakdown cost of as little as $10 a month (no idea in your currency, ha ha!) should hopefully be worth it. So far, so good! And my sister, who has pain from sciatica as well as fibromyalgia and arthritis, has definitely noticed a difference. She, like me, is happy for any appreciable pain relief, and is looking to a magnesium oil application to do even more.

So, the serrapeptase, and the amazing Swiss elixir, have been the biggest finds for me and I plan to continue with those regardless. I also picked up a bottle of L-tryptophan which is also said to cross the blood-brain barrier with the assistance of a simple carb like corn syrup, on an empty stomach, to go on to facilitate serotonin increase there. I think that once I have dropped down to taking fewer serrapeptase per day (freeing up an "empty stomach" time), then I will start up with that for awhile. Again, I figure that by increasing the amount of serotonin to work with, I may be able to keep the Effexor increases down this winter.

Terry, do you know what happened to the thread the young lady started on natural supplementation against anxiety and depression? There was a lot of good info on there and I remember you posted to it as well as me?
Marie

---------- Post added at 15:09 ---------- Previous post was at 13:12 ----------

Wait, i think it was more about foods to increase serotonin! Anyone??

[Greenman50]

Not wanting so sound negative but i,m skeptical about ANY claims from any product , to help when someone is making money out of it .

You could just research the best diet online and add that from the health store .

Please let us know how you go on but its not for me

[SADnomore]

Hi, Mel!

Right. My position is that, since we have to eat anyway, we do need to try firstly to get our nutrients for body and brain from our diet. It's just that there are some diets, and some nutrients, that call for some supplementation for certain results. I always research thoroughly any that I'm interested in, and only incorporate them when they've been proven to work in double-blind scientific studies. Really!

For sure, a lot of unscrupulous companies are jumping on what they see as trends, and trying to make money from inferior supplements (not enough of the active ingredient, or a cheap version that doesn't work). That's why I research to death what it is that is proven to work, in what amounts, what to look for and what to avoid. And I take this information with me when I shop. I don't want to waste my money and time. It takes discipline for me to stay on track with what I take as it is, ha ha!

Trust me, I am really committed to getting the majority of my nutrients from good food, and making up shortfalls, only, from supplements. And when I hit on some that work, I like to share them!!! Wooo hooo!

[MyNameIsTerry]

It can be daunting researching all this stuff, I've done my share over the last year or two and you find one thing then see something attached to it or a study reference and off you go. I often end up with a lot of tabs open and a slow lappy because of that!

Then it comes to the companies and the prices. I like to be as cost efficient as possible so that just adds another layer of complication to the searches and ties me up in knots for a bit sometimes.

Some companies you have to be careful with but you also have to remember that all the big supermarket chains and even the health food chains don't make any of these supplements so what old Fred sells on Ebay for a few quid can be coming off the same production line as the biggest supermarkets for their generic ranges. I've saved plenty by taking chances on companies that show a decent image on Ebay or Amazon.

It's great if you can get it from food, but also don't get ripped off by your supermarket in the process but some things just aren't possible. A good example of this is Mari's Serrapeptase, unless you like eating silk worms that is?

It's sooooop complicated isn't it, Marie? Vitamin D needed for this thing to absorb, calcium for another, etc. I think you will be at certified nutritionalist level soon

What dose of Omega 3 are you taking? I go for around 800mg+ of each but I'be been adding a capsule on top as I have a pack to use up. I'm glad it's helping you, I know it's helped me.

I seem to recall that the old advice of "oily fish" isn't accurate and that certain types of fish within that category are best. I can't remember now. Have you come across that?

It makes perfect sense about the Serotonin. It's something I find annoying about our GP's who throw pills at us to stop us wasting it yet don't offer us advice on filling up the tank. I wonder how many people could be helped simply through adopting a diet condusive to more of this?

Have you looked at the Wiki list of Serotonin foods? Spirulina sits at the top. That might be worth a look as thats been touted as a superfood for a while and has a good amount of nutrients like B vitamins in hasn't it?

Cool on the Serrapeptase. I shall get on with that then because I have had what I thought was sciatica for about 15 months now although it is getting better thanks to...transdermal magnesium. I have 90 80,000IU strength of the enteric Serrapeptase but it cost about £8 I think, so it's pretty cheap over. There are loads of generic brands so it's a bargain really. I'm glad you mention that thought because I hadn't looked at it for pain but I knew it was for inflammation too so this is likely to help me on several fronts. I'll probably take a few to ensure no issues and maybe double up to build it up. Any advice on how long you need a loading dose? I think I've seen more expensive specialist brands going up to 250,000IU. I've mentioned it to my GF because she has scare tissue in her shoulder from years of archery and the tearing she had. It is supposed to help with scarring on the surface too I think which is useful as I had Eczema so I have a load of scars all over. I had read it had to be enteric coated or the stomach acid will just destroy it. Did you have any side effects starting? I've heard there are none but it's always worth checking with someone who has tried them as supplements have been (and still are) a battle for me so I have expose myself to them and challenge any thinking or sensations that arise.

Magnesium oil is good stuff. I went for this as my first magnesium supplement. If you rub it on your feet it won't sting. If you rub it on an area that is magnesium deficient, it will sting. It's not painful like some people make out on the reviews, god it won't be to any woman who has been through childbirth . I made a mistake a few weeks back when I rubbed it over an area of skin I had scratched in the night that had meant an open wound...and it was like a burn. It has helped me greatly with my knees. I have been having aches & pains in them for about 6 weeks and they would throb in bed. Exercise or no exercise, they ached so I thought I might be getting osteoarthritis. I gave the oil a try and the difference in noticeable. I used it after walking and it takes it off and over the last few weeks it has greatly reduced the daily aches to very little. I really need to do in the morning as well to sort that out. A word of caution though, it can stick to your clothes so I would wash it off after it has absorbed into the skin. It's not a bad price either, cheaper than the chelated forms and last for ages. I don't think I was using enough the first 6 months until I started on my knees. I can't say I've noticed a difference with anxiety yet but it could be because of the other areas needing it so much at the moment.

Can you remember when that thread was on here? Is it a really old one from someone I won't know that was getting updated? I might have a look but I'm trying to remember about it and can't at the moment. I remember seing one about cortisol reduction as well, was it anything like that?

[SADnomore]

Well, I do treat myself when it comes to fish oil, because I have learned if I am to keep taking it, I can't have the fishy taste coming back to haunt me and causing possible tummy problems :(

So, here it is, the one I take. And love. Yum! Contains 525 mg of EPA per 2 tsp serving! Which is more than twice its DHA. And yes, this is what we strive for, more EPA than DHA, unless we have cut out processed foods and bottled salad dressings, etc., which commonly have high levels of DHA needing balance with EPAs. (Due to soy in one form or another.)
http://www.botanicahealth.com/produc...s-peach-mango/

I have looked at topping up with capsules and chewy treats that are said to be "just EPA", but they invariably contain DHA too, but in any case, the amount in mg is laughable. 55 mg and such. Not worth buying. However, once the 3 doses of my yummy liquid are taken, then just one egg at 340 mg of ALA will top up my needs. Not being a fan of eggs and fish every day, though, I am really looking to limit them to twice a week, and to get my nutrients from a plant-based diet the rest of the time. Omega 3s are easy peasy, from just 1/2 ounce (7 halves) of walnuts I get that much! 1 tablespoon of ground flax seeds allows for 1 and 1/2 times the 1000 mg allowance, which is probably one reason we see them in all these healthy smoothie recipes.

For all you who are able to take regular fish oil supplements, you are fortunate, keep at it! These fatty acids, particularly the omega 3s, are essential to brain health, that's been proven now for years!

Terry, just today looking at the sources I have done for this post, I am seeing that you are closer to the new recommendations than I am! Indeed there are some references to 4,000 mg a day as being optimal! Surely though, with all the whole foods that contain them, supplementing with fish oils by more than 2,000 mg isn't necessary?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________

By all means, do try taking serrapeptase as a one-off first thing one morning, and after half an hour have a good breakfast. See how you do. Oddly enough, I did notice an increase in pain for a few days (?) before it then got better. That was it, and could have been for any number of reasons, including an inadvertent intake of oxalic acid from say, tomato sauce or spinach. The improvement since has been slow but then, after about 3 weeks, very steady, with NO side effects, I am happy to say. I am just following the advice of staff at the health food store who have been trained on it, and sell to locals all the time. So far, so good, as I say, and I am optimistic that I can taper down soon for the fall. *In answer to your question: My 120,000 strength is in a bottle of 140 (bonus size), so I would think that if you took 4 per day until your bottle of 90 80,000s are gone, that will concur with what they would tell you* ... I am now taking mine 2 at a time on rising, and 2 at a time 1/2 hour before dinner.

*I just took my first l-tryptophan, empty stomach, 2 hours + since lunch, and have had no side effects. The label reads: L-Tryptophan (glucose fermentation) 220mg; Vitamin B6 (pyridoxal 5 phosphate) 50mg. Because of the glucose fermentation, I skipped the corn syrup, lol! I trust it is being used now to create more serotonin. I'm not at all sleepy, so I doubt it went the other way to melatonin

*Forgot to mention, I have seen it advised that for SAMe, optimal dosing is to be taken, empty stomach but with 100 mg of a B-complex, and with a fat like coconut oil to follow, perhaps in warm tea or coffee. This is for best absorption, and to disarm any homocysteine that may be formed. I think that following with my tonic just before breakfast will provide my Bs. I will be waiting on it for a bit until I am on a roll here with everything else.

I may need to bump the serrapeptase up again mid-winter if the arthritis flares badly, and have extra bottles of 60,000 to work with in that case. However, winter is when I typically juice my greens for a few weeks, and otherwise avoid the nightshades to keep oxalic acid out (this aggravates arthritis). Fingers crossed this will do enough so that I may not need to increase serrapeptase or at least, not for long. Keep us posted on your progress, and your gf's and her shoulder if she tries serrapeptase too!

Finally, re: sciatica, Terry is the mag oil best applied directly to the lower back?

Thanks for info, my sister has some at the ready!
Marie

---------- Post added at 16:25 ---------- Previous post was at 16:20 ----------

SAMe:
http://wholehealthchicago.com/2009/05/19/714/

[SADnomore]

I think this is probably the most comprehensive article by a doctor that I have read on the subject of SAMe. Conditions helped, dosing, etc. I have also read other things that also make me feel more confident about trying it!

http://wholehealthchicago.com/2009/05/19/714/

Oh, yes, spirulina! I have indeed heard that it is very high in tryptophan, and have trialed one tablet a couple of times to make sure I could take it fine, as I wanted to purchase a raw protein powder that contains it. I was fine! (A reputable company is essential, because there can be toxins in algae if it's not tested properly. And you find out right quick :P )

[MyNameIsTerry]

Thanks Marie,

I'll give them a try for tolerance for a few days and then ramp them up. It says 1-2 anyway but I known I've seen 250,000IU units. It's an interesting enzyme and seems to do quite a lot. It's also pretty cheap in the UK. The benefits to arterial plaque alone are good as thats normally meds only territory. I will let you know how I get on.

For my sciatica I have been rubbing the oil on the lower back & buttock (left side). I've only been doing it a couple of weeks so it's better but still up & down some days. I don't know if I really have sciatica or something causing it like making something pinching. So, I thought it worth a go but I had added glucosamine (started at 750mg for a bottle, now 1500mg) and later added MSM (500mg) hoping it would help. when I started Glucosamine I did notice a difference within days but after a week or two it didn't seem to keep getting better.

Have you looked at taurine? There are chelated magnesium versions but they are sparse so they are a bit pricey. Taurine is a GABA precursor but the only problem is that it is used all over the body too so it might mean dosing upwards until you see a change.

Something I have started looking into is L-Glutamine. This is one that could be a double edged sword because it supplies not only all the muscles in the body in large amounts but the exhitory neurotransmitter Glutamate. Thats not a bad thing as it's the largest neurotransmitter but it needs to be balanced by GABA, the 2nd largest. That could be an issue for experimentation in those of us with anxiety as who knows if we are lacking in GABA. But maybe along with taurine there may be something. The interesting thing is that L-Glutamine is very cheap as it's been a mass market bodybuilding product and it's just an amino and it's high in all the protein powders and weight gainers. Taurine is as well but other than in protein powdes & weight gainers, in tablet form it will be a higher dosage (probably, not checked yet) but probably more costly on it's own than L-Glutamine tends to be.

A new version of magnesium chelate has come out from one company so far so it's pricey. It's called Threonine, I think. I can't remember for sure but I think it's a theanine version so that might be worth checking out given that helps in the teas? It's being more touted for the brain but I don't think there are any studies beyond the manufacturer's own.

What is the 4000mg against though? Is that all Omega 3? So, EPA, DHA & ALA? Some products e.g. hemp milk, contain quantities of SDA but I don't know what use they are as they aren't considered part of our physiology . I am certainly interested in Omega 3 though, I know it has some studies in asthma too so a potential double whammy for me.

Have you looked at the ratio of 3 vs. 6? I've read before that too much 6 can be a problem for anxiety/depression. I haven't got any further with it though.

I haven't looked at 9's either but I do eat a little bit on peanut butter daily on a couple of crackers with a big dollop of Quark so I'm getting some.

Oosh has a thread called "Fish Oils". There is some issues with competition of EPA vs. DHA hence Oosh was saying the DHA should be less. I posted an article in there somewhere. I have been stuck on this due to cost so I'm not sure whether I could be gaining more by limiting DHA somehow but it's tricky with cost involved. It also mentioned about GLA being connected to DHA, I think, so may need some balancing.

I suppose if price is no problem, you could look at chia seeds. They are tiny so you could probably add them to flatbreads or crackers if you were making them. Perhaps add some sunflower or sesame seeds?

On the subject of L-Tryptophan, as far as I read it was competition from BCAA's which would take priority with the meal being protein in nature. So, they said to add carbs because it destabilises this balance to allow L-Trytophan to take proirity. If you are taking it alone, this may not be needed as the competition won't be there so all you would need is the carried across the blood-brain barrier (thats the B6 isn't it?).

[SADnomore]

Right, that's what they have said all along, that DHA should be less than EPA, and also that 3s should outnumber 6s, mainly due to their preponderance in our diet. Sorry, I misremembered that! Sometimes I just make notes of what to look for, once I am convinced of the merits of these recommendations, and go to the stores and online to compare prices.

Once I have bought and incorporated a supplement, I may not remember just why it is I am taking it, but, I am now trying to group them accordingly, and make a point of remembering generally why I am taking which. ... For example, thus far today I have taken my serrapeptase ("pain") and now am about to eat and take my omegas ("brain"). I have "tag-alongs" like B12 which is best taken on an empty stomach, so I took a sublingual a bit after. As always, plenty of water is suggested when taking anything on an empty stomach. Empty stomach really is imperative with the serrapeptase, so I am religious about that. Yesterday I ended up out for dinner and missed taking it beforehand, so I waited and took the last 2 at night, then gave a half-hour between that and the rest of my meds.

*My understanding with the L-Tryptophan is that the B6 is included for homocysteine elimination as this may be otherwise problematic. ? And while what you have said about adding carbs to destabilize competition from BCAAs is probably the technical explanation, it was said in one study that the size of the carbohydrate molecule allows it to take priority as carrier for the trypt. Corn syrup was successfully used in the study I read. I'm thinking that if a "fancy" glucose-fermented kind isn't available, then a tablespoon of a concentrated carb like that would do just as well, on an empty stomach. I'm just going to take it for maybe 10 days and call it good for now. I will be ramping up my ven more as time goes on, and will be considering the addition of SAMe. I think it is prudent to be a bit conservative so as not to go too far with serotonin.

Also of course there is the critical Vitamin D, which I drop in with my omegaliscious. (I don't mean to keep harping on it but, as I say, while I have been taking my magnesium along with these last, I am concerned about what I read briefly about magnesium being best taken without fat? Does that include fish oil? I wonder.) I take it morning and evening, but am now considering taking both capsules at bedtime. I take the bisglycinate, 200 mg capsules. I will likely need to adjust once I start using mag oil. Naturally, as a topical, with that it shouldn't matter what's also in your stomach, am I right?

Lastly on the fish oils/omegas, I don't really know anymore either what the ratio of 9 should be, and whether, like 6 from soy, it abounds in salad dressings, packaged goods and so forth. I am sure a person could spend a couple of hours looking at the 3-6-9s and, by choosing one for a lower ratio of 6 to 3, also manage to fit in the 9s appropriately? Meanwhile, whole foods have proven themselves again. Junk food is bad for anxiety and just about everything else! There are reasons behind that, clearly. I have to say that if you are eating pretty clean, Terry, your equal proportions of 3 and 6 are probably okay! It is when we eat soy in all its ubiquitous forms in prepared foods that we tip the balance the wrong way and need to claw in more 3s. That said, the balanced 3-6-9 supplements appear to be cheap enough at least here that you might look at those for future reference.

*Chia seeds/Flax seeds. Actually, when looking at detailed nutritional profiles of these two, Flax seeds presented as being 4 times as rich in omega 3s as Chia seeds. Of course, Flax have to be ground though.

*I keep hearing the same as you report about the glucosamine supplements, they help at first, but then that's it. I am looking to the anti-inflammatory effects of the serrapeptase to at least ease the pain issues for now, until something comes along that really helps to regenerate cartilage itself. Someday!

*Taurine and L-Glutamine. No, I haven't looked at them and what with being on an anti-depressant, I confess I am reluctant to start such delicate tinkering in fear of opening up a real pandora's box, you know?

*Glycine. I am clueless about it, but it is present in that protein powder I mentioned.

Well, fingers crossed that the serrapeptase successfully augments the relief you are finding with magnesium oil against your pain. I will be hoping for similar with the addition of the mag oil to my serrapeptase supplementation. As has been commented, at least if nothing else we are reducing inflammation nevertheless, and that's a hugely positive thing.