Advice Column For Sufferers - Keeping it all 'momentary'

[will beswick]

Hi all, hopefully, this post 'may' shed some light on your problem and give you some hope! Please feel free to post any questions here as I will read this daily and come back, as maybe others will do if they want to contribute. This really follows on from my post a couple of weeks back which outlined the 'processes' at work when we panic.

I spend a lot of time counselling sufferers - and feel now my experience could be put to better use - especially when I see so many people visiting this site - I think Nic has done a great job in making something positive come out of her own anxiety and think it is fantastic that so many seem to have a lot more understanding 'because' of this - especially when the medical profession are really clutching at straws with anxiety - certainly in my experience anyway!

Lets start with the 'notion' that some/many of us may have that dream - 'one day', everything will be rosy! Where, we are completely calm and 'don't' suffer at all! Whilst, on reading this, you might think ''Oh well - perhaps this 'is' a bit unrealistic - believe me - it is! Anxiety/panic sufferers, as we know from other helpful posts - do tend to live on that very fine line, but what I am going to say is that we often forget the very positive characteristics we have which 'also' come with the territory!!

We can be extremely caring, positive, intelligent individuals - immensely creative etc and this is why I sometimes say why medication 'wasn't' for me - please dont think I say people shouldn't take this option - no - I can imagine it can be a great crutch - in the right circumstances - but, for me, it really 'kept' the whole panic issue at the forefront of my mind - ''Is this going to work/is my problem physical/is it because Im mad/will it work/what if it doesnt?'' - hopefully you will see that it actually 'spurred on' my panic and intensity/questioning whether I 'should be' who I was.

So, I suppose the next point is to say that - regardless of whether you take meds or not - one thing I 'do' know, is that it comes a time when we can make significant headway with this affliction and 'keep' on a sane side of that fine line simply by 'understanding' our mind processes at work - understanding that, in fact, you 'can' 'live with' being you/who you are - and not constantly operating as someone who would rather 'not' be who they are. What I am saying is that 'acceptance' of you is something which will 'take the pressure off' and help you to understand and live a happier life - in rational mode - without always thinking you're odd/mad.

This is where I get to the nitty gritty!! I wont go on too long - and will of course answer any questions that may come on here...but, quite simply, what we 'do' as a repetitive panic sufferer is simply meet tension with tension. So much of my work focuses on the solution to our panic scramble/over-controlling which leaves us in that awful mind race of desperation.

What I am summarising here is that you 'can' live as YOU - yes, this will 'never' be perfect BUT you will be able to exist without a complete re-vamp of your character - and just need to understand that any panic/anxiety just further 'implicates' your tension when it 'doesn't need to' - it is an unnecessary 'follow-on' process..

This is answered as follows:- As said, we ARE tense beings and have that 'fast mind'/maybe advanced state of adrenaline pumping constantly which makes us feel uncomfortable...However..'when' we cut-off from any tense thinking/feeling which we've just 'had', we THEN 'tense up' in reaction to those now bygone thoughts/feelings. This is where so much of my work focuses on us developing an awareness not to 'do' anything at this stage. Basically, without going into the fine detail - when you feel 'ready' to panic, at this very point, you 'do' have a choice - as you are actually at the point of leaving those thoughts/feelings (tension) - so you can either tense up against that thought/feeling that you've 'just had' OR leave that now-conscious tensing up ALONE.

How? Well, it's important to realise that, to tense up post your subconscious flow 'does' take more effort and this is what the panic sufferer constantly 'does' - understandable 'because' of your inherently 'worked up'/intense/confused state - BUT you really can help yourself here, as we are constantly further implicating that intensity by tensing up to 'fix' it!

So basically sufferers of repetitive panic/anxiety and subsequent obsessive behaviours are caught up in a spiralling web of tension meeting (conscious) tension. The first tension (us being us - thinking 'what' we think) is FINE. The second tension (reaction) is both unnecessary and actually forced. When we can actually learn that there are 2 separate processes at work here, we will eventually start to see that we 'can' actually keep things rational - without 'taking part' in that post-thought interference -and can also focus more rationally as 'us'. So many people I advise 'know' there may be something 'out there' that they 'do' that further implicates their problem, but are so lost in it all that they have turned to whatever they can to give them some sort of crutch - understandable when you're so desperate - I have been there!!

Please feel free to come back to me on this with nay question/or contribute. What I mean by the title 'Keeping It All Momentary' - is that, surprisingly, when we learn to accept that we 'won't' always be in that perfectly calm land - we can actually 'work towards it' far better by simply avoiding that forced post-thought interference - we 'can' keep our identities and actually develop that better habit of being generally calmer/less intense - by simply 'not tensing' against that imperfect us. Not interfering with/stopping our flowing journey does mean we have to 'accept' who we are - yes, as said, very uncomfortable at times - but nevertheless, our challenge and one, believe me, we can move on from. Will

[Chem]

Thanks Will.
Just one point I'd like to take up:

You said:
"We can be extremely caring, positive, intelligent individuals - immensely creative etc and this is why I sometimes say why medication 'wasn't' for me - please dont think I say people shouldn't take this option - no - I can imagine it can be a great crutch - in the right circumstances - but, for me, it really 'kept' the whole panic issue at the forefront of my mind - ''Is this going to work/is my problem physical/is it because Im mad/will it work/what if it doesnt?'' - hopefully you will see that it actually 'spurred on' my panic and intensity/questioning whether I 'should be' who I was."

Some of us have conditions where we do not produce the chemicals needed to keep us stable, or produce too many. For those people, meds are necessary, not crutches.

[will beswick]

Hi Chem many thanks for your comments...this is something which I, too, have debated for many a year. 'However', I honestly believe that our 'core' characters would be 'lost' if we were 'not' the people we were.

As said, there is enormous debate - psychiatrists vs psychologists etc and I am not going tell you the 'fact' is this or that...what I will tell you is my opinion..based on personal experience and from helping other sufferers - many of whom have been on meds for many years and who have needed to make a major decision to move on in a different direction. So, from this experience, I believe the panic/anxiety sufferer will pretty much 'always' suffer unless some headway is made with 'understanding' this illness - with a self-belief/drive 'not' to stop at thinking ''well this is the way it will always be for me'' (and I dont think anyone would really want this anyway).

I use the word 'crutch' because I believe medication would have never 'moved me on' with this affliction, though I understand it can help. In all honesty - and I have had this same discussion with a lady who would not agree it was 'anything' other than her hormonal imbalance - I agree that it may be that in part/or part of our genetic make-up etc...but I also think that we will never move forward with this 'sole' view.

In fact, I believe it holds us back in many ways - thinking ''well this is my physical imbalance and that is all that ever needs addressing/or can be changed''? Don't mean to upset/unsettle anyone, but I will tell it as I believe it - with plenty of self-experience and positive messages to give - if you think I have sailed through this all easily because I do maybe 'don't' have a chemical imbalance/have never thought of it, then that would be misleading. Yes, maybe a 'mixed' therapy might benefit and so there is hope for us all, but there is 'sooo' much room for understanding 'what goes on' when we panic to help us with this!

There is, as said, too much proof, factually, that I and many others have started to lead more rational, happier lives simply by understanding 'what' they do which exacerbates the problem (re their initial intensity/negative state) - as you may know, so much of my work is about our 'reaction' and not our initial woe(s) which form the the 'core' of our 'then' irrational flare-ups/subsequent obsessive behaviours.

As I say, we 'are' intense maybe by nature/or nurture - BUT we 'can' change - it IS possible - all I say is that we can actually invoke natural change just as any other person who needs to learn to manage their life better - others indeed have challenges just like us - look at those who have reached the dizzy heights - has it all been plain sailing? Ironically though, this change can 'only' take place 'naturally' if we just stop that 'over' conscious reacting to our difficulties, many of which are incredibly normal, but which we may find we perhaps we 'feel' more than others.

Please also dont confuse my message as NLP - as this I see as one of many 'forced' 'lets pretend its all ok' advisories (this increases self-pressure 'further'?). In fact, what I say is we shouldn't and don't have to interfere with our natural ability to move forward with our challenges as that is what panic does (ref also our cut-off protective processes) - and also see medication as something which masks that natural recovery.

Regardless of whether you take meds or not - all I am saying is that you 'can' make headway with your problems if you really understand 'you' and how you sometimes may 'get in the way' of naturally 'moving forward' as you - as you further implicate your challenge by panic over-reacting to your 'way' of thinking. Regards and please feel free!! Debate is healthy!


'There 'is' hope for us all'

'We can feel the tension - no need to react with tension'

[Chem]

All choice comes from within. Your comment "We can feel the tension - no need to react with tension" is correct. However I am choosing to react to your post with irritation as I found it patronising and wordy, with little substance.

I did not confuse your message as NLP. The message seemed too confused to have followed any particular theory. I'm sure you mean well, but most people on nmp have not received any training or experience and need clear, concise responses, especially as they are usually upset when they post.

I am not intending to debate here and nor do I require your permission to comment. I will simply repeat my initial point: some of us have conditions where we do not produce the chemicals needed to keep us stable, or produce too many. For those people, meds are necessary.

[will beswick]

Chem - what I find bemusing is that you seem to state things 'as fact' without due regard for any opinion. I think I will leave it there re patronising ...however, this post is not just intended for an angry response, but simply to help people.
One thing I will take up is the pt made re my thoughts/ideas being confusing - I apologise to any readers who may concur so I will outline briefly here as I think so many people on here have a good idea about their condition that I also gave more depth.

The 'one' thing that is quite important here is that panic takes 'more' effort and is one thing that many of us get 'drawn' in to without really understanding this.

It is like a 'double control' if you like, where we try to consciously control thoughts that we have 'just' come out of. Indeed, my work is based on the fact that this secondary control is unnecessary, conscious and forced. In fact, we dont need this secondary control as our subconscious cut-off process will be enough to bring us out of our thoughts - we just dont understand that this primary cut-off process works and thus try to consciously control those thoughts.

To make this even simpler - basically our subconscious primary state is 'enough' to get us through our woes - and this is where I say I 'feel' we 'can' make headway without medication. Many of us take medication because we have lost all other hope of recovering - understandable - but I know how my understanding improved! So to summarise...

Process 1 is where we have those incoming positive and negative thoughts (i.e. ALL of our thoughts) - we 'cannot' help any of this.
Process 2 is where we 'let go' of these thoughts. This, too is subconscious and needs 'no' conscious effort from us.
Process 3 is our panic - this always happens when we are 'coming out' of our thoughts. We 'don't' trust the cut-off process 2 that has just stopped us from overthinking and so tense up and try to fight back in to those thoughts as we think we need to 'do more' to consciously control/or get away from them.

As said, tension is the key - or more to the point 'post-thought' tension - it takes more effort, hence why we 'can' actually recover by 'not partaking' in that extra effort tensing - it IS actually easier 'not' to panic. Will

[Anxious_gal]

I do agree we need to accept our anxiety may always be part of us .
As for THAT dream, I never had that, I always imagined a life where I was comfortable enough to be able to do the normal things that everyone else can do.
But I guess once you start working on your anxiety you realize how hard its going to be to reach your goals so it's good to make lots of little dreams/goals along the way :)

The problem is anxiety is not just anxiety, it's genetic, conditioning, upbringing, child hood experiences, life traumas , personality etc...
On the surface it seems easy to treat, I do believe CBT NLP etc.. all can really help people learn how to manage their anxiety and help them live a more comfortable life.
But then there's all the issues underneath the surface, not figured out yet how do you go about fixing those really deep issues you have.

As for medication? Well I am not a fan of antidepressants but they have not worked for me. The problem is the drugs might cure the anxiety but once you come of them, your brain and body need to readjust and you go through withdrawal resulting in your anxiety coming back.
But then they are people with psychotic disorders who by all means most of the time need to be on medication to cure their terrible symptoms. But things such as schizophrenia over time can develop resistance to medication.

Problem is you cannot separate, brain from mind or body, but which came first? The anxiety or the change in brain chemistry?
But depression/anxiety in some people can be cured by medication, can be cured by daily exercise , or electric shock therapy...

I think Chems frustation in the post is because the advice lacks instruction.

"Basically, without going into the fine detail - when you feel 'ready' to panic, at this very point, you 'do' have a choice - as you are actually at the point of leaving those thoughts/feelings (tension) - so you can either tense up against that thought/feeling that you've 'just had' OR leave that now-conscious tensing up ALONE. "

Ok but HOW do you do that?? (I'm sure CBT would answer that)

It's like saying just relax, haha relaxing for anxiety sufferers is a rather complicated process and different things/thoughts work for different people.

I am not sure what you mean by our reaction is forced,
for example my anxiety makes me jumpy, I hear a loud noise, my body involuntary jumps and my heart races, actually that's true for most people.
Also what about PTSD anxiety? Or Phobias, they fear is just there, over time the whole thinking process has been cut out. We just react
Like Pavlov's dogs
But like the dogs with therapy the reactions can be reversed.

Could you like have a written example of Processes 1, 2 and 3 ?
It does seem very simplified and maybe it's too early in the morning but I am so not 100% getting what you mean.

[will beswick]

Hi Mishel and many thanks for your post.

Yes, I agree totally with what you say about anxiety's origins being a mixed bag! There are so many things to take into account with depression and anxiety and the forever question for so many of us is 'What came first?'.

However, sorry if my message is too simplified/not clear enough at the moment and what I have said so far is certainly an overview. Additionally - I agree with your point re how, for example, we can 'panic' in the moment - like with that loud noise - just like if a dog runs out in front of your car - these are still momentary reactions like anyone would have. However, what I am talking about is that we 'prolong' the moment. These are definitely 2 different things.

...So, with the example of your loud noise - you say you 'jump' when it happens - this is FINE and an entirely normal reaction - it is momentary. If you THEN tensed up about 'having' that reaction/thought/feeling - then this would be you retrospectively forcing yourself to 'go back' into that experience - i.e. our panic. This is 'typified' by us tensing up. It is these 2 separate entities - I call them primary and secondary thinking which I try to highlight.

To go into more detail as you said re these 3 processes - our 'primary state' basically 'covers' processes 1 and 2 - where we are in 'subconscious' mode - we cannot 'do' anything consciously about it.

...This is where our imperfect 'spread' of negative and positive thoughts/feelings 'come in' - process 1 - we can do nothing about this - so for those of us say who are in a bad phase of stress - they will unfortunately have a 'lot' of incoming negatives at this time!

However, process 2 is 'also' where we subconsciously 'let' these thoughts/feelings 'go' - this is what I call our 'cut-off' processes. So, in our primary state - processes 1 and 2 see thoughts/feelings coming AND going - keeping them in their momentary form so we can keep our flow.

Indeed, my work is all based on the fact that this is ALL we need in life to rely on. We will survive life in this state - and indeed, the 'positives' too only need to be in their momentary state to take effect, but more about that later!

However, what 'happens' with the panic sufferer is that 'because' of maybe very stressful/traumatic times/an intense/worrying character - for 'whatever' origin this stems from - we consciously 'react' inadvertently 'post' these primary thoughts. In fact, we react by tensing up against these thoughts 'just' at the point as they are leaving us - so, in summary process 3 (our panic) happens particularly when we 'have' bad thoughts, but if you understand this - we panic actually when thoughts are leaving us - it's like we are inadvertently trying too hard to deal/get rid of discomforting thoughts when they have alreay been and gone AND been (subconsciously) controlled (by our cut-offs).

These 3 processes become so interwoven for the panic sufferer that we can't see the wood for the trees. Hope this helps - re your Pavlov dogs point - this is also exactly what I say too - by 'not' tensing when tempted - we will actually steadily develop better habits of allowing our thoughts to 'happen' without this unnecessary further investigation. In turn - we will, in time, actually become calmer all round by not always tensing up. This is really what relaxation is - 'not doing' really as opposed to 'doing' something! So many people get this mixed up and 'try' too hard relax - our forever irony!


Let me give one Advice Column situation where a young lady had a very distressing time ....of course, again, I can elaborate further as I did with her, on this forum...to the point where she now realises that there is nothing 'wrong' with any initial momentary thought - its just what we 'do' next which makes it an issue - making it 'more' then the momentary form it should be in. thanks and feel free to come back Will

ADVICE COLUMN

Here is a very recent Advice Column with a lady who had some ‘perverse’ thoughts when she saw a movie with her husband – it involved young boys being taken out of a room to be abused and her guilty feeling by getting ‘turned on’ by it. Very good of her to allow this to go on here – but it is very important to ‘show’ that we ‘can’ have any thought – no matter how odd/weird/extreme/perverse/horrible etc. The problem ‘is’…and I hope you are slowly ‘getting this’ now, that we then magnify/make issue ‘post’ cut-off from that single, or string of thoughts/feelings – when we just need to avoid ‘taking part’ in that forced ‘after’ tensing process. This abstention from forced tension… post our cut-off – or that ‘temptation pt’ (which is the SAME thing), will ensure those thoughts are simply ‘left’ just as momentary thoughts – harmless and all – we ‘can’ think anything – but ‘don’t’ need to follow it up.

We ALL – particularly we – have VERY imaginative minds! When we avoid panic – we will laugh it off as just one of those very many quirky thoughts that we can have and then move confidently on. I get so many questions about perverse/violent thoughts – understandably – we react with horror if we lack the confidence in our mind processes. Here’s my response… I have to say this has recently helped a lot of sufferers as Sara’s pain with this is all too familiar – I think what it has done, as with Nick, is highlighted that I give the same message every time – and that sometimes sufferers are so ‘wound up/confused’ that they cannot see the point which can actually be much clearer to those reading this!

Hi S - understand totally and the thing is - you have a good awareness of all the processes which are making this thought unnecessarily big! Thing is - if you look at my MORD - we can have 'any' thought - for the panic sufferer, they are usually very intelligent and very creative too due to an intense/fast working mind - so these thoughts are indeed, VERY common.
What is the problem then? Well, understanding is everything here - we can all and 'do' all have way out thoughts - we really do - the ONLY thing that makes it so bad for you is that you care and dont want to be that type of person who might harm others or spin out of control.
However, the fact is, 'by the time' you have had that thought - it has actually 'gone' - so any further panic 'beyond' the ok temptation just makes you revisit that thought unnecessarily - this is crucial to my concept. I will include my latest email to a sufferer just to give you a guide so you can 'fit' your own situation into the 3 thought processes, but the main thing to tell you is that 'because' you have had a bad thought (MORD pt 1) - the time you panic is actually when you have just 'cut-off' from that thought - ok it was bad/scary - but it has just gone. Any 'MORE' panic beyond this 'panic temptation' is actually you forcefully 'pushing' yourself into unnecessary retrospection…by...tensing up ‘unnecessarily’.

By simply understanding these processes at work - you should see that if you just 'dont take part in that 'pushing' yourself into tension after-bit - the thoughts will subside in time as you allow yourself to flow through them every time. Then you will steadily see positives coming in like ''dont be daft'' - you have an active mind but so what?'' I once thought I could 'smack' a friend right in the mouth and got very worked up about it thinking I would have to follow it through so I know it! Please feel free whenever. cheers Will