I dont know why i cant accept that a panic attack cant harm me. I am petrified of having a panic attack or anxiety symptoms because i believe that im in some kind of real danger . i think il collapse and die .. i see images in my mind of been rushed to hospital or i think il loose control or that i am crazy!
i dont know how to over come this feels like im stuck at the moment even though i know im alot better than how i used to be ..i still dont have a life . i cant do anything on my own because im too scared of having a panic attack and being on my own . im so frustrated i just cant see a way out of this . I dont know how to loose this fear. also i really should be learning to drive by now but the thougth of it just seems impossible im stressed that im not living a normal life and im avoiding so many things x
Aww bless ya.
Have you been to the doctors or tried any CBT, read books, tried Clare Weekes CD's?
It is hard to face the feelings, lord knows its hard, probably the hardest thing we will ever do.
The only way you will break that fear of fear cycle is to keep trying, every day, no matter what, keep putting yourself in situations that you know will make you panic, every day, try tomorrow, but this time when you get that ''OMG i need to get out of here now'' feeling, stay for 10 more seconds.. just 10 for now.. what happens? The feelings come more intense right? The need to get the heck away from there ( there could be anywhere) NOW intensifies .. but wait..10 more seconds and just see if you can go with those thoughts and feelings.. slowly slowly slowly make it 20 more seconds.. then 30.. your rational mind knows its panic, it knows why you are panicking, it knows that each symptom is because of the panic response. Your irrational mind is freaking out. To make your rational mind heard you have to give it a chance to be heard. Repeatedly running out on situations or avoiding them fuels your irrational mind.., staying and letting those horrible feelings hit, even if just for 10 seconds, for now, will give your rational mind a chance to be heard.
Baby steps :bighug1:
What Mindful said :)
Confront situations. Accept that you will have panic attacks, and just roll with it.
And definitely go see your doctor - look into medication and CBT.
Thankyou for both of your replies . i Have had cbt but im still stuck . I cant confront thease situations because i feel like the panic attacks will cause something bad to happen. i dont feel safe at all when i feel so bad especially if i was on my own. I really want to get my life back though ! i will try what you have said though x
scottishxlass
23-12-11, 13:47
awww i feel so sorry for u i have GAD and i still get panic attack but i can control them now i cant stop them before they make me feel horrible and my anxiety has settled loads... u need to start getting into the mind set of i have just had a panic attack and i am still walking about fine, only when u start believing that will it start to ease up in the mean time try and concentrate on things that will take a lot of thought..i use crosswords and i do my hair or tidy up lol i really think if the thought pattern breaks, anxiety becomes a lot easier to deal with. I also think because i haven't always had anxiety if i can change to think that i have i AM able to change to think that i haven't. it is hard but believe me you will get there. when mines started i couldn't move of the couch, now i am back living my old NORMAL life. If i can do it u can to! this much i am sure of! best of luck xx
Thanx for your reply :) Thats brilliant that you can now control them and have your life back to normal. That must be the best feeling . Your right about focusing on something else that can really help. i think i just have this fear that i will collapse when i have a panic attack even though thats never happened i just feel like its going to. i know i need to push myself to do thease things that make me panic .. but i find it so hard to do thease things xx
hello 12ema (:
I have the same exact feelings you have. It feels good to know that im not alone. I been suffering from anxiety for about 6-7 years now. I dont leave my house at all because i am afraid i feel i will stop breathing, pass out or just freak out. I had my first real panic attack last week and it has really took over me. I get scared easily now and fear this will happen again. Since then i havent really left my room other than to use the restroom and go to the kitchen to get something to eat. I feel like i am caught up in four walls and dont know what to do anymore that i just break down crying :weep: What helps for me tho is doing crossword puzzles, drawing, writing in my journal and talking to someone so i dont think of those negative thoughts. I really hope things get better for the both of us because i know how hard this is. If you need someone to talk to anytime, im here :bighug1:
cymraig_chris
30-12-11, 22:54
Hi, there is a lot to say so I'm going to cheat and quote from my site, sorry for the length of this reply.
Anxiety removal would be easy without negative thoughts.
New negative thoughts in the mind are like deer tracks in the woods, the more they are used the more trodden down the deer tracks become, soon other animals and people start to use these path ways, these path ways become bridal ways, these bridal ways become B roads, then A roads, then Motorways. They seem unstoppable.
One method of removing the thought is to change the meaning of anxiety to what it truly is; a beneficial tool for survival.
[Example thought: "my heart is palpitating" - <MOTORWAY> - Conclusion "I'm going to have a heart attack!!!!!!"] = FEAR
Using this example this is the way you can make anxiety work for you:
You can't simply get rid of the ‘motorway’ short term, but you can find the benefit.
[Example thought: "my heart is palpitating" - <MOTORWAY> - Conclusion "I'm making my heart stronger !!!!!!"] =REASSURANCE
This is the reason why we need to view anxiety as a positive thing because in truth it is.
Sticking with the above example the subsequent pattern emerges, as the reality of the reassurance outcome is realized the motorway becomes less used (because we do not fear the outcome) and returns to being the deer track, and eventually this pathway is bypassed completely by a new beneficial pathway.
Know that thoughts are harmless; I viewed my negative thoughts in the same way as I would watch subtitles on my television set. They are merely thought patterns. I learned not to fight the thoughts, but simply accept them. They would come and go; it took me a while to let them flow freely in and out of my mind. But once I did this the vicious circle began to fracture. In the anxiety ‘disorder’ negative thoughts cause the physiological changes and the physiological changes cause the negative thoughts. You only have to eliminate one of these for the circle to dissipate.
It is true that one of the hardest aspects of dealing with any anxiety-based disorder is the issue of the negative thought.
What is a negative thought? Any creative thought with a detrimental outcome. They pander to the three main fears of the human self.
Example Thought
1) I’m going to die
2) I’m going mad
3) People will laugh at me
Root Fear
1) Fear of physical death
2) Fear of psychological death
3) Fear of social death
These thoughts seem to pop into our conscious minds without warning or invitation, they can be extremely distressing.
They can make us feel like we are no longer in control and often promote notions that we are somehow 'losing-it'; going 'mad'; becoming severely mentally unstable; having a nervous breakdown or experiencing massive cognitive (thinking) collapse. Don't worry none of these are true.
Reminder: There is nothing wrong with you, there never has been anything wrong with you, you are completely fine.
My own condition caused me to experience negative thoughts every fifteen seconds of every waking hour regardless of where I was. Consequently, there were many occasions when I would wrap pillows around my head to deaden the sounds whilst in a protected foetal position and be literally screaming. Not my finest hour considering there was never anything wrong with me. But nothing to be ashamed of either considering this is a very common reaction to severe anxiety-based disorders.
I was (what I believed to be) under attack from a part of my sickeningly-crazy mind which was hell-bent on my own mental, physical, social and emotional destruction.
I was of course completely and utterly wrong.
You can see that it often is difficult to see-the-wood-for-the-trees. If it is difficult for the traditional well-read and intelligent psychologist to grasp the big picture, you can bet your cat that in the midst of an anxiety disorder where everything but scary protection based thoughts are filtered-out (due to them being incorrectly categorized as non-pertinent) it seems almost impossible.
During my early days of exceptionally high anxiety, I remember reading a government mental health help booklet that briefly discussed the existence of the persistent negative thought.
I was presented with a new murky character called the Unhelpful Thoughts Mugger.
The name given to this character is simply the result of the (incorrectly perceived) nature of the thoughts themselves. I can't blame the author for that, that is exactly how these thoughts initially seem.
You are busy going about your day and bang! Your own thoughts are 'hijacked' by this oh so malevolent and shadowy assailant.
Well the perpetrator has to be malevolent surely? ... he's a mugger! ... When is the last time you met a 'nice' mugger who thrust ten crisp new pounds into your pocket with a warm smile, no questions asked and then simply buggered off to share his endless generosity with another unsuspecting beneficiary?
He was even given a cartoon depiction as a masked, overweight, comic-book street-thief with an air of menace about his person, as indicated by his home-made cudgel with which he was ready to batter his next victim. He hid poised to strike behind a gloomy bricked-wall corner.
Frankly I’m surprised he wasn’t drawn in black-and-white surrounded by darkly sinister swirls to fully deepen the negativity of the intention he was designed to represent!
Now the naming conventions of traditional flight/flight psychological literature has always been one of my bugbears.
'Mugger' indeed! It would be far more helpful and a mountain more accurate if we called this character the Good Samaritan.
Why?
Because he is. Because the function of these so-called 'negative' thoughts is simple protection. They are formed because we have taught ourselves that we and our loved ones (we are social animals) need protecting, all because we have taught ourselves that there is something very wrong with us. These protective thoughts can take on some frightening forms:
What If I hurt myself?
What If I hurt my spouse?
What if I hurt my children?
The reality is that if you were the type of person who could really hurt yourself or others with no remorse you would not be fearful of the thought. Your protective thoughts, subsequent fear and the consequent fear-loop produced is proof that it is impossible for you to do harm to yourself or others.
These thoughts can take two main forms:
Form 1) The What-if thought … or to give it the big word ... "Catastrophizing”.
Form 2) Persistent Self-checking … a constant reminder of your predicament
I mentioned earlier in this reply that "These thoughts seem to pop into our conscious minds without warning or invitation"
High Anxiety is simply the fight/flight response that we have inherited from our evolutionary past:
Let’s see why that is, let's return to origins of anxiety disorder and a sabre-tooth tiger scenario.
If protective thoughts and their subsequent actions had to be invited the following scenario would unfold:
In this example Mr Tiger is not strolling into your camp on the off chance of a potentially scavenged meal. He has seen you first, his brain has identified you viable and easy prey. He has been patient and has stalked you with elegant stealth. He has the speed and size advantage and the element of surprise. The first you know of his existence is you seeing him running directly at you. There is maybe fifteen feet between you both. You have maybe two or three seconds at best to respond with an action. Do your protective thoughts need an invitation to be present?
"Excuse me, I’m your fight/flight response … do you mind if I offer you some options regarding your current predicament? … which as both of us can see is getting rather precarious with the advancing seconds. You see, I’ve just received some information relayed to me by your visual cortex which has all the characteristics of an imminent and grotesque death in the shape of a rather large hungry tiger. To wit I strongly urge you to temporarily provide me with control of all your relevant physical and mental functions for the purposes of providing you with a series of potential exit strategies. Would that possibly be ok?”
If this was the way the fight/flight response worked then the scenario would play out like this:
"Excuse me do you mind if I ...." at this point the tiger has ripped your throat out.
In the real world, your thoughts would issue the following instruction:
“Run”
They may not even be time to form the word consciously, but the concept would still be rationalized and implemented.
If the threat was as imminent as the above example describes then you would be running even before having to consider the concept of ‘run’. Not only would you be running but you would be running in the most appropriate direction which would give you the greatest percentage chance of survival based on all the factors available: tiger speed; tiger bearing; tiger estimated weight, tiger inertia and thus predicted turning speed of tiger; Etcetera.
That is why exactly anxiety always seems to get there first, it is exactly why anxiety-based disorder driven thoughts arrive uninvited. Simply because they are supposed to. There is nothing wrong with you. There never has been
In the modern day situation there is no tiger so we simply invent new fears and think about them because they frighten us.
You are simply running through the fight/flight response, because you incorrectly fear anxiety.
In my experience the best way to initiate the reset/digest response (calming down/restful and happy result, i.e the opposite of the fight flight response) ... is to act completely normally. Accept your situation for the short term because it will soon get better.
Now we know a little more of the negative thought and how it is completely harmless, we are less scared of it, when we don't fear it ... it goes.
Question: How should we label the negative thoughts, OCD? GAD? Panic? Anxiety?
Answer: It does not matter how we label the thoughts, GAD, OCD, Pure O, Panic Attacks, Panic Disorder, ROCD, Phobias, Depression etc are just the different clothing that the anxiety based-disorder wears. They are simply symptoms, or more accurately classifications of the Fight/Flight response.
In the same way, symptoms of the Rest/Digest response (clothed) could be categorized as conditions such as happiness, laughter, relaxation, enjoyment, social confidence, self assurance etc.
When we are happy (utilizing the Rest/Digest) we don't try to classify it, nor should we do with the Fight/Flight response.
There is nothing wrong with someone who overuses the Rest/Digest, thus there is nothing wrong with someone who overuses the Fight/Flight. Its the same feedback mechanism.
To stop using the Fight/Flight, practice using the Rest/Digest, your brain will automatically rewire itself and all the negative/irrational thoughts will be replaced with positive/rational thoughts.
A common thought is this, I wish my Fight/Flight response was cleverer, then I would not be in this condition. Use that to your advantage. The Fight/Flight does not know the difference between a real and pretend threat (the cause of the 'disorder'), thus it does not know the difference between a real and pretend response (the cause of the cure). Pretend, and act like all is well, you will then initiate the Rest/Digest response, keep at it and you'll be laughing.
Everything is in balance, it always has been, and there is nothing wrong with you. All you have to do is prove it to yourself. Every time you are feeling anxious, you are using anxiety links in the brain. Every time you react positively and ignore anxiety you delete these links.
What you understand on a Monday effects what you do on a Tuesday.
What you do on a Tuesday effects how you feel on a Wednesday.
What you feel on a Wednesday effects how you think on a Thursday.
What you think on a Thursday effects what you understand on a Friday.
Byproduct = Cure
This now leads nicely into the concept of acceptance.
Acceptance is one of the anxiety removal strategies championed by many experts. When they use the term acceptance, it is very difficult to understand what they mean, after all it's just a word, how can anxiety be solved with just one word?
We are conventionally told what to do:
"Accept your feelings and your feelings will go away"
There is no magic happening during the acceptance approach, it is simply cause and effect. The thinking behind why this strategy works lies in understanding the dynamics of the anxiety vicious circle.
Our bodies produce adrenaline in response to stress triggers. This adrenaline produces huge changes in the body to enable us to fight or take flight. The thoughts available to our conscious mind become limited, we filter out all notions except those based around the concepts of fighting or fleeing. We become scared of these changes and produce more adrenaline. The circle is formed.
The notion of acceptance works like this, if we simply accept that we produce high levels of adrenaline, accept that we experience the bodily sensations produced as a result of this high adrenaline, accept that our thoughts will be negative, and ultimately accept the fear, then the vicious circle is undermined and as a consequence eliminated. In other words, we accepted we didn’t react.
So we know that this method agrees with the irrefutable laws of cause and effect.
Well I mentioned briefly that we are told what to do:
"Accept your feelings and your feelings will go away"
... but we are not told how to do it.
Time for another question: Why is it so incredibly difficult to implement Acceptance in practice?
First a reality check.
Why on earth do we call it a vicious circle when its sole reason for being is to keep us safe and protected? The world of anxiety-based disorders has (for as long as psychology has been used) been the unfortunate victim of negative spin. In other words, on the surface the condition seems horrible, non-beneficial and on the whole destructive so it also feels natural to describe it negative terms. It does not take a genius to conclude that if we identify something as negative, our responsive interaction will also be negative, and our situation exasperated.
Irony is afoot. In the field of psychology/psychiatry which prides itself on looking beneath the surface, this negative superficial terminology is rife.
Of course many psychologists/psychiatrists appreciate this irony but nothing has been done to change the wording. In a world of economic limits, I imagine (and completely without sarcasm) that it would be too expensive.
If we remove the confusion and give the vicious circle a far more accurate and fit-for-purpose name we would choose terminology such as a 'Safety Loop' or 'Protection Circle' or 'Positive Feedback Shield'.
You are now starting to see that an anxiety-based disorder has never been an illness; it is merely the body doing what it is designed to do.
How on earth are we supposed to accept living within a vicious circle which attacks us with episodes of panic, all compounded by the existence of an unhelpful thoughts mugger?
We each attach emotions to words.
The fight/flight response interprets these words and their emotional connotations (rooted in personal memory) as a cue to initiate additional protection (produce more adrenaline).
We are designed to keep ourselves safe so why would we (at the time when we feel most vulnerable) simply accept being mentally ill and under attack from a mugger who perpetuates chronic vicious condition.
Sometimes I wonder why we don't go the whole hog and call the unhelpful thoughts mugger the mind rapist (sarcasm restored).
Accepting being under attack is simply outside the parameters of our design.
Our natural reaction to such terminology is to keep fighting.
But acceptance arrives so much easier if we know we are accepting being protected by a Good Samaritan who operates the short term safety loop for our benefit.
That's how acceptance is achieved.
The rest/digest response interprets these words as a cue to initiate relaxation.
Now we know that the fight/flight response is harmless. It will serve us better if we develop a method of acceptance that directs our attention to the wider world and away from the pointless scrutiny of our own anxiety situation.
The answer to complete acceptance lies within the bravery and wisdom to leave the question unanswered. I have a strong belief that most people misinterpret the notion of what true acceptance is. Acceptance is not the acceptance of the anxiety condition. That is a small part of the solution. We need to accept the reality that our reactions and conversations with the anxiety condition is now firmly in our past... it is, in truth the acceptance that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with us in any way, shape or form. We are not accepting anxiety, we are accepting recovery.
Our subsequent action becomes inaction with regards to fight/flight 'advice' and we get on with our lives, our rest/digest response is initiated and our unneeded 'protection' memory associations deleted.
The Good Samaritan described here is an odd fellow. It is obvious to us that we don’t need his advice. But on first impressions he has convinced us he is very clever, always there first to give us safety ‘advice’ we don’t need.
If only he stopped giving us advice we could recover. We have told him time and again he is no longer invited, but he simply does not listen.
Not strictly true. He does ‘listen‘, in fact he’s listening and watching all the time, it’s just that we have never intentionally ‘spoken’ in his language. We have spent, weeks months if not years telling him in our spoken language to stop.
Here’s the problem, when we talk and write we predominantly use the language centres of the brain (Broca’s Area/Wernicke's Area).
These areas have relatively little to do with the Limbic System compared to our raw senses.
Ok there are minor linkages, however, the influence of Mr Broca & Mr Wernicke is negligible in relation to the language of the Good Samaritan.
Question: Can you remind me of what language the Good Samaritan speaks?
Answer: The language of Sensory feedback.
Act normal, live your life, look and act outwards and anxiety will start to dissipate and subsequently be removed.
I hope this helps,
Kind regards,
Chris.
www.nothingworks.weebly.com
This is a great reply I look forward to reading your site!
I've been struggling a bit lately but I'm putting myself out there still and going with the flow!
you will learn to control them educate yourself an read as much as you can about panic attacks i kept reading an reading til it sunk in that nothing bad was going to happen going out was a nightmare id shake an cry for hours before i had to do the school run i found when i went out i started to use a ipod an the music was a really good distraction good luck keep at it you will get their :)
Connor_cbt
02-01-12, 01:43
Hi, 12ema
Mindfulness meditation can also help, it's a little like cbt in the way that it interrupts the negative thought process and encourages you to analyse exactly what is occurring in your thoughts and in your body. The other benefit with meditation is it is good for general relaxation and can be practised at any time! So you can cultive the skills for meditation at a time when you don't feel as anxious, then once you do experience an anxiety attack you can apply you meditation technique and hijack that negative thought process. With practise you will get better at acknowledging anxiety as it arises and intercept the negative thoughts early on, so the anxiety never really has a chance to take hold.
Whatever path works for you I really wish you all the best, there is life on the other side :)
dont want to hi jack the thread but connor do you use meditation cds or dvds just wondering any recomendations :)
Connor_cbt
02-01-12, 02:06
There's a free website Audiodharma.org and it takes a little digging but they have heaps of talks and guided meditations on there all freely available as mp3 audio files, some go into Buddhist philosophy but many are very practical meditation instructions and I found them to be very helpful, there are other audio tracks you can buy from iTunes et al that are pleasant to listen to once to are comfortably meditating, but to be honest if you google mindfulness meditation, or guided meditation you will find heaps of free stuff.
you will learn to control them educate yourself an read as much as you can about panic attacks i kept reading an reading til it sunk in that nothing bad was going to happen going out was a nightmare id shake an cry for hours before i had to do the school run i found when i went out i started to use a ipod an the music was a really good distraction good luck keep at it you will get their :)
really good tips lisa :yesyes::yesyes:
i found reading and educating myself on panic really helped
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