mindfulness - a thought

[Munki]

Recently I've started reading a book called 'Mindfulness for Dummies' which is a form of self help but unlike anything I've ever read. It's used by Buddhists and the like and is a proven form of self improvement that enables you to focus on and deal with negative thoughts as opposed to the all to familiar way of dismissing them. Although it's still early doors I recommend this book to you. It has a calming factor that, for me, has taken the edge off anxiety at times.

It's made me question something and I want to put it to you:

Years ago medication was unavailable to people with mental illness or anxiety/depression. Therefore, people had to find alternative and natural ways of doing it. My Nan for one suffered a nervous breakdown in her 20's and had no help other than those in front of her. She pulled through and is now one of the strongest women I know.

Do you believe that you can do it without medication? I am still on Venlafaxine 75mg but am trying to get to grips with the theory that we can do it on our own. Maybe this realisation could give us an immediate sense of freedom?

I'm waxing lyrical here so feel free to tell me to shut up. I'd just like your views :)

[ShazyA]

Hi mumki my own personal opinion is yes you can do it without medication. I have taken cypralex twice before for a few months when I felt I couldnt cope with the anxiety and panic, but they dont cure the problem just gloss over it, but gave my body and mind some down time which I really needed at the time. I am a great believer in alternitive means like relaxation therapy, retraining your thinking and self help, although I do believe it also depends on your personality, you need a strong will and determination to "go it alone", and also a great deal of support from family and friends. it can be done. but be prepared for a the long haul it takes time and although I am on the up, I am nowere near the finish line yet, but heading in the right direction.

[mandshere2000]

Hi
I found your post really interesting because anxiety runs in my family right back to my great grandma and I've often wondered how they dealt with it all those years ago, I have also ordered the book you talk of I at the moment take 40 mgs daily of Prozac and have for over 20 yrs on/off and I just don't seem to be getting much respite from depression/anxiety
Manda

[Forest]

Where can you get this Book?

[ShazyA]

Where can you get this Book?
amazon have it

[Munki]

Here's a link
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindfulness-Dummies-Book-Shamash-Alidina/dp/0470660864

I find there's something calming about this book. When you're having a bad moment or day, have this book with you and read it. You can even turn to an appropriate chapter relating to how you're feeling if one exists. The other day I was having an 'ugly' day and the chapter on 'stop trying to strive for perfection' really cooled me down.

[Ingenious]

Yes I have this book - but IMO there is a better one. It's called Mindfullness by Mark Williams and Danny Penman and comes with a CD like the Dummies one (ISBN: 978-0-7499-5308-9).

I found this book easier to do on a daily basis because it is more structured (as an 8 week course) whereas the Dummies book for me was more a quick read, or dipping in and out of, though it does contain lots of very good info. Basically I read the Dummies book and then it ended up on the bookshelf gathering dust. But this other book I found to be more engaging and more motivating, because of the structure and also because the initial meditations on the CD are short at about 7 mins.

For example, the Dummies book is a bit open ended and although you can read it and it sounds like a great thing, having a course laid out in front of you where you do a different CD track (and some different exercises) each week really keeps things moving and interesting.

Doing this course has been a game changer for me, it has reached the parts no tablet could - right at the roots of my thoughts.

However as with anything like this, different approaches will appeal to different people, looking at the low price of these books, why not try both?

Munki I don't know about you, but I always felt like medication was only ever helping the symptoms, never the root cause. It has only been the meditation that has gone to the root causes for me, and enabled me to change how I think and head off the problems at source.

[Munki]

I'm going to have a look at this book. Thanks for that. Anything that helps is great as far as I'm concerned.

Yes Ingenious, absolutely true. I kind of got lazy for years, expecting the medication to make me feel better but I now realise that it's up to us to do the work if we want to improve. I don't want to rely on pills for the rest of my life :)

---------- Post added at 15:08 ---------- Previous post was at 15:01 ----------

Is it this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindfulness-practical-guide-finding-frantic/dp/074995308X

[mandshere2000]

Yes I have this book - but IMO there is a better one. It's called Mindfullness by Mark Williams and Danny Penman and comes with a CD like the Dummies one (ISBN: 978-0-7499-5308-9)
Hi ingenious
Could I get this book off amazon also
Manda

[theharvestmouse]

I think if you can deal with anxiety without medication then you are in a stronger position, I succumbed to taking medication but I sometimes wish I had tried to beat it without.

[Connor_cbt]

Hi Munki :)
I think you're exactly right about treating anxiety/depression etc. The
treatment for anxiety, the way to cure it is therapy be it self directed therapy
or supervised counselling. You change the thoughts to change the feelings
and that changes the behaviour and for that to work it requires a lot of work
on behalf of the helpee. Medication can assist that process but it will never
replace it, you could never continue to live as usual and take a pill and
expect it to get better.



Years ago medication was unavailable to people with mental illness or
anxiety/depression. Therefore, people had to find alternative and natural ways
of doing it. My Nan for one suffered a nervous breakdown in her 20's and had
no help other than those in front of her. She pulled through and is now one of
the strongest women I know.


dont be offended but i think you have the wrong idea
about the history of mental health. I live in a village that grew up around one
of the largest victorian asylums in the uk (it is now luxury apartments lol)
but that is what happened before to people with mental health problems,they
sedated/tranquillised people until they could barely move or knew if it was
night or day, it was then that they strapped them to beds or left them in
padded cells. Even that was before your grandma was born go back further
and people only lived until they were 30, and they drowned baby's that
appeared abnormal or simply left them to fend for themselves. I used to look
after a guy that was Autistic/OCD and in his sixties, he was taken to a facility
when he was 8 or 9 years old and left, he had been in the same facility for
almost 50 years before the institution was closed and he came to our home.
Modern healthcare has is faults and doesnt have 100% success rate but dont
be fooled by romantic notions of the past that it was better back then it was
horrifying and cruel :scared15:

all the best,

[Munki]

Hi Connor,

You're talking about people that were seriously ill and hospitalised. My Nan was nowhere near this severe but had daily anxiety and depression. For this, there was no treatment.

[Connor_cbt]

Nope, not in those days. Sadly even girls that had children out of wedlock were even candidates for the asylum :( a panic disorder would have got you a place for sure.

[Ingenious]

Munki yes the link you posted was exactly the one I mean :) Please do try it - if you stick to the course and the daily meditations (which start off easy and never more than 10 mins) it could change your life, it certainly changed mine. I must get around to posting up a review on Amazon, that's where I bought it too.

---------- Post added at 22:52 ---------- Previous post was at 22:40 ----------


the way to cure it is therapy be it self directed therapy
or supervised counselling. You change the thoughts to change the feelings
and that changes the behaviour and for that to work it requires a lot of work
on behalf of the helpee.

I can't agree more. The truth is there is no quick fix and tablets alone rarely do more than ease the symptoms. To genuinely get better you do need to stand up and fight and above all to work hard on your recovery by going after the root causes. That's not easy when you're down of course. We are so conditioned these days into expecting/hoping for a quick fix solution to everything. I wouldn't be surprised if there's even an app for it :)

[hoshi]

i have some experience on this subject aswell. my college support worker was recently going through some anxiety problems with me relating to how i constantly felt sick and nervous when i had work due in, and she suggested mindulness to me- she'd recently started a training course that integrated mindfulness as a main theme into her counselling work and asked if i'd like to try it out with her. when she explained what it was about i realised that i was already aware of many of the techniques, just from having already begun listening to my body over the years of suffering anxiety. even my CBT counsellor had suggested 'relaxation' techniques over the course of our sessions that i had nodded and said 'yeah i do that all the time already', and i supposed it was just an instinctual reaction to the damage i was putting my body through with all the stress and worry i constantly feel. and so when i started reading more about mindfulness it seemed like a reiteration of what i already knew deep down inside, which is what i really like about it. it genuinely does 'tune you in' to your self and your body and relieves the 'out of control' feelings you can often be overwhelmed by.
anyway, my college support worker gave me some links to a website including some 'mindfulness' podcasts which i found very useful:
http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-information/podcasts/

[PanchoGoz]

My grandma had a nervous breakdown a good 70 years ago, she was put in bed and she got better, that was that :) but she was always "nervy" ever since and I suppose now adays she would have been diagnose with anxiety.
Oh and I'm a big fan of mindfullness yes. It's helped me "switch on and switch off" my thoughts without the whole red rose paradox and it's an allround lovely feeling. Mindfulness is like having a friend with you all the time :)


Do you believe that you can do it without medication?

Do you mean can you get better with out medication, or simply survive?
Because I think nobody really needs medication because anxiety is not a life threatening illness. However, if they are suicidal, this could be seen as life threatening, but even then, just talking can get someone out of that position. It's amazing what we humans can endure, and even if we are lying there immobile, we will not "succumb" to anxiety. I think medication can speed things up and make it easier, but will the treatment be as effective ie. if you have CBT, you want to be unafraid of the fear that keeps the cycle going, so medication rather defeats the point of it.
I'm a little anti-meds as you can see, but I would never see it as a weakness to take them if you believe it will help you get better - then I would see it as a tool - but using them to escape from your turmoil is what I have an issue with.

[Munki]

Great that so many of us have the same idea. It seems that we're all of one mind. You know, my Mums always said that us anxiety and depression sufferers are part of an elite club! We're the most intelligent, creative and imaginative (sometimes a curse!) and that ultimately, we're incredibly spiritual. This always makes me feel a bit better :)

[Rach29]

Hi there im doing it without meds and it can be very hard havin g a bad day today actually coz i havent been well : ( but it is possible to do yes ive relapsed at the mo but i know i will beat this again no matter how long it takes and im determined to do it coz theres only ourselves that can get us out of this horrible cycle its just finding that way to break it but it will be done the book sounds interesting tho :)

[PanchoGoz]

Great that so many of us have the same idea. It seems that we're all of one mind. You know, my Mums always said that us anxiety and depression sufferers are part of an elite club! We're the most intelligent, creative and imaginative (sometimes a curse!) and that ultimately, we're incredibly spiritual. This always makes me feel a bit better :)

Amen to that :D