View Full Version : Problems at work - disciplinary action for absence :(
Hi all, wondering if anyone's been in the same position as me and can offer any advice... :(
I was signed off work just over a year ago with GAD and stress. I was off for quite a while, but returned full time into the office in May.
Since then, I've had a LOT of sick days. I had a disciplinary meeting for absence in October which led to a formal written warning, and I've got to have another one on Monday as the situation isn't really improving.
Back in October, work asked that I get a dr's certificate every time I'm off sick - even if it's just for one day. I've been doing this, but my doctor has enclosed letters saying that it's a waste of their time and that work shouldn't be making me do it.
I have this disciplinary meeting coming up on Monday, and I'm waiting for a supporting letter from my GP which will essentially list out days off and treatment, a suggestion that I should see Occ Health (again - work ignored their suggestions last time) and that I should be treated under the terms of the Equality Act as this has been going on for longer than a year. The letter won't be ready until after the disciplinary meeting, but despite that, my boss has refused to reschedule.
I feel like I'm being victimised - it's not as if I don't want to be at work, but it's partly their attitude that makes things worse. I'm not allowed to go part time, and not allowed to work from home - even for just one day a week - as "this is a full-time, office-based contract". Not really sure what I can do or what my rights are here :(
You should telephone the MIND legal helpline. They're able to give you specialist advice in relation to work & mental health issues. I've called them before and they were very helpful.
I'm no expert, but I noticed a few things from your post:
- As far as I'm aware, legally you can't be made to provide a sick note for fewer than 7 calendar days of sickness absence
- Your office should, after the first hearing, have worked with you to see if/how they could help you to re-integrate into work more successfully
- You are entitled to be accompanied (by a colleague or trade union rep usually) to any disciplinary hearing. If you haven't yet arranged this for Monday you could request that you wish to, and your boss would be obliged to reschedule. This would give your letter time to arrive. It would be best for you to be accompanied in any case.
I am in the same position as you, although I haven't got to the disciplinary action stage. I think that will be the next thing for me if I don't get back soon. Elle-Kay has given some good advise. Are you in a union? If not I would suggest you join either Unison or Unite. You can look up their website and they will support you straight away. I had a Union rep represent me at my last sickness review meeting and he was very helpful. I have another occupational health assessment on Wednesday.
Sorry to hear that Annie :( Thanks for your advice, both. I phoned Mind and was basically told that I need my GP to confirm that my anxiety's classed as a disability (well we all know that it DOES impair day-to-day life!!), and that disability absences should be counted separately to other "normal" absences due to sickness.
Problem is, I've been told that I can't reschedule the disciplinary meeting on Monday - my boss has out and out refused. I really don't think they appreciate how much worse they make things when it gets to this stage... :(
Hi Emily! Sooo sooo frustrating and the last bit where you've put you feel victamised is an understatement, people in management tend to behave like this - I think a power trip. If they only knew how bloody miserable they are making you and if this isn't a difficult problem as it is!
I say this because you said - their attitude & the fact the boss imphatically WILL not reschedule a mutually convenient time and is neither willing to do all she/he can to help you still do your job such as a day working from home.
Elle -Kay IS SOOOO RIGHT , her advice is spot on!
Like they won't bend at all, but unfortunately the country we live in, they have to show as your employer , that they are doing all they can at this stage , surely before they try and dismiss you, which they haven't or aren't doing!
Hope u sort this, good luck
Sorry to hear that Annie :( Thanks for your advice, both. I phoned Mind and was basically told that I need my GP to confirm that my anxiety's classed as a disability (well we all know that it DOES impair day-to-day life!!), and that disability absences should be counted separately to other "normal" absences due to sickness.
Problem is, I've been told that I can't reschedule the disciplinary meeting on Monday - my boss has out and out refused. I really don't think they appreciate how much worse they make things when it gets to this stage... :(
I can't remember the precise wording, but I think that a disability (in law) is classed as "anything which has a significant effect on your ability to carry out day to day activities", so yes, anxiety conditions often count. In forms where it asks I have started to answer 'yes' to the disability question, as I think fore-warned is fore-armed for the company.
wendy35107
11-01-13, 14:46
I'm in exactly the same postition as you hun. I've had 13 days off in the last rolling year and I've just had a disciplinary today which I'm sure with lead to my final written warning.
I've already had my verbal and 1st written.
I'm not sure what to do either, I obviously can't help it but equally I don't want to be sacked for having anxiety and subsequent panic attacks.
I hope you get on ok, I'm sorry I have no advice, I just wanted to let you know I'm in exactly the same boat.
Take care.
They can not actually 'sack' you. They can dismiss you will so many months pay depending on how many years you have worked there. Another alternative is to give you a larger sum of money and a good reference. The latter of these should be the preferred option as it means it doesn't have to be taken to court thus the employer having to pay solicitors fees. I do recommend a union helping you though as they can advise and act on your behalf taking the extra stress and pressure away from you.
Ahhh I'm sorry Wendy :( It's horrible - none of us want to be in this position...I'd give anything to be back to normal and fighting fit again! Even when they know that it's my home and social life that's affected too, not just work, it just feels like they don't believe me. If I had a broken leg I don't think I'd be in this situation as it's more visible!!!
Advice I've just had from ACAS is to get something from my GP confirming the anxiety as needing to be treated as a disability. My company handbook says that normal "tolerable absence levels" shouldn't include any absence due to disability, which should be dealt with separately. Apparently there could be a good case to appeal if they give me another formal warning - Wendy, I recommend you give them a call and see if it applies in your situation too... x
wendy35107
11-01-13, 14:53
Hi Annie
Can I ask why they can't sack me? Surely if I've gone through the disciplinary procedures and it gets to the final written warning stage, the next stage is dismissal?
I wans't aware they had to give me money in what is the equivalent of redundancy.
Thanks for this, very interesting.
I'm in exactly the same postition as you hun. I've had 13 days off in the last rolling year and I've just had a disciplinary today which I'm sure with lead to my final written warning.
I've already had my verbal and 1st written.
I'm not sure what to do either, I obviously can't help it but equally I don't want to be sacked for having anxiety and subsequent panic attacks.
I hope you get on ok, I'm sorry I have no advice, I just wanted to let you know I'm in exactly the same boat.
Take care.
Only 13 days!! That seems a bit harsh. I have been off since June!
---------- Post added at 14:58 ---------- Previous post was at 14:55 ----------
I am just quoting what the union told me. Being ill isn't really a sackable offence, especially with some thing like anxiety. they also have to look to see if there is another department/role they could employ you in that would be less stressful (you don't have to accept it) A lot depends on how many years you have worked there though. If I remember correctly you may have to have worked there for 2 years or more.
They can, of course, do anything they want in practice. What matters is whether it's allowable in law. For instance, they could dismiss you for sickness absence if they haev followed the disciplinary procedures, but if you can claim that their behaviour has discriminated against you (e.g. on the grounds of disability, or on the grounds that your case has been dealt with more harshly than a colleague's) then you have very good grounds for a claim of unfair dismissal through an employment tribunal. The employment specialist at your local CAB would be able to advise you, help you fill in the necessary forms, etc. A tribunal claim has to be made within a finite time, but is free (the state pays), so you wouldn't need to worry about costly legal representation.
Hi, I am so sorry to hear what you are going through.
I am in a very similar position, had 11 weeks off work following my breakdown last November, returned to work mid January 2012, was asked to go for a Formal hearing in July which led to me having a bad relapse. Have been signed off sick since then.
Long story short...1st hearing July = written 6 month warning. 2nd hearing = 18 month final written warning...appealed. Went to CAB for advice, referred to employment law solicitor who is now taking up my case for discrimination under the Equalities Act. My union were rubbish.
He said I should not have attended either of the hearings, you don't have to if you are signed off sick. I never knew that.
See if your GP will write a letter stating that you are not well enough to attend. Your employer has a 'duty of care' to you. They should at least postpone the hearing if nothing else.
I have postponed 2 Appeal Hearings and have been told that unless I attend the 3rd re-arranged date, the appeal will go ahead without me. I am now waiting for my solicitor to respond to me and contact my employer outlining his case.
I would advise you to book an appointment at the CAB as soon as possible....take all relevent documents, correspondence, emails, evidence with you. You ARE being discriminated against. Each time they contact you they are causing you more unnecessary anxiety.
Feel free to PM me if you want any further info. I wish you the best of luck.
Kitti :hugs: x
Kitty, that's really helpful, thank you - and great to hear a positive story!
I've just contacted our HR people by email (we use an external company) to appeal against the upcoming hearing on Monday. Going to contact CAB later too. Wasn't doing too badly at the start of the week but all this has meant that the anxiety's back with a vengeance - fun and games.
Wish I'd known that I could appeal the first warning - it's too late now, has to be done within 5 days of the disciplinary letter according to our company handbook :(
Will keep you posted... x
I have had so much time off this year as well. I haven't been warned yet but they have stopped my sick pay for the first time in 10 years.
Emily, your outcome letter should have said you can appeal. it's your right. I didn't appeal my first warning, union rep said it was normal procedure & I was scared and didn't know what to say in any appeal...I guess I just thought "well, I was off sick so maybe thats just what happens now" sort of thing.
The solicitor asked why I didn't appeal the first warning. He said my employer has basically used the most punative and harsh outcome at both stages of the process. Very hard on someone who is suffering an anxiety disorder and tryin their best to recover and get their life back on track.
They definitely seem to be doing the same to you hun. Be warned, get help asap. I wish I hadn't left it so long. Take care x
Can I just chime in here as I am having problems re work (NHS!!!). My sickness started due to bereivement amongst other things...had total breakdown last July, been off since. I have had 2 HR and management meetings and while they pretend to be sympathetic, it is plainly obvious that they are losing patience with me and can't understand my problems, made it clear that they could dismiss me if I don't return soon (I am desperate to feel like going back) unfortunately there is someone in my office who is very insensitive and unsympathetic and has made comments behind my back which have got back to me. I was also encouraged to make social visits to the office 'for coffee' and the last one I made he made me feel very uncomfortable and has now commented that this is disruptive so they now say don't come in. These visits were also encouraged by Occupational Health who have been very good. I was even told to bring any sick notes at lunch time if I wanted to see my friend as again it was disruptive. I too feel like I am being victimized...my manager kept texting me ridiculous questions and was told by my Occupational Therapist not to contact me (I do not have a problem with him otherwise). He has now taken this personally and shown another side to him. I'd like to see them cope with the trauma I have, but then what do they really care???
Oh Katy that's horrible...so sorry to hear what you're going through :(
I think a lot of it is due to them not really understanding anxiety - I talk quite openly about it when I'm at work as I don't think it's something we should be ashamed of - there's definitely a stigma attached when it comes to mental health, though. Even my boyfriend doesn't really understand despite me explaining and despite him seeing me at my lowest points!
Katie, that's awful especially for the NHS!!
This again mirrors what happened to me...solicitor said they definitely should not be calling me or contacting me while I am signed off with a MH issue. This would only add to my anxiety, which of course it does.
Again, I would say the same to you as I did to Emily. Make an appointment with your local CAB as soon as possible. Take any 'evidence' you can with you...I have 3 ring binders full of letters, emails, work policies, occ health reports etc. It's all relevent.
Don't feel bullied or manipulated into going back if you are not ready. I did and ended up having a relapse. I feel very angry that my employers done that to me when I was making real progress. It was a massive setback for me.
I agree with Emily about the stigma. In the workplace that is called discrimination. It is happening to you too. Take some positive action now.
Best of luck to you too :hugs: Kitti x
Thanks Kittie, your input is valued. I will definately seek advice as I do hope to return soon but if the situation regarding the bully in my office continues it may well hamper my recovery. Who wants to sit in an office in silence because one person is in a mood and then picks on you if you dare complain about the atmosphere. I do know that when it kicked off about me bringing my sick note in and I got upset he rang my managers manager when he found out we were having a HR meeting and i had already complained to her. He knew he was in the wrong but was covering his tracks as so many people have commented on his unpleasantness. He even commented to someone that he only had one day off when his dad dies!!!!! Nice
Katy, I asked if I could visit on a lunch time to see my colleagues (as suggested by occ health) but I was told No I can't visit my colleagues but they can arrange a 10 minute meeting with my line manager! that's the last thing I want!
Annie - they have no idea and they should be guided by occ health. Believe it or not I am based on a Mental Health Hospital site, even though I don't work for them but it is still NHS!!!
They can not actually 'sack' you. They can dismiss you will so many months pay depending on how many years you have worked there. Another alternative is to give you a larger sum of money and a good reference. The latter of these should be the preferred option as it means it doesn't have to be taken to court thus the employer having to pay solicitors fees. I do recommend a union helping you though as they can advise and act on your behalf taking the extra stress and pressure away from you.
whats difference between sack and dismiss?
um i had 6 seperate longish sicknesses between week and 7 weeks in last 2 years..... um im off now.... been off 5 weeks.... got bk to work as needed to be back tried to go bk mon but then couldnt get out of car park for two hours and then was tight chestedkm couldt breath, went all hot and sweaty and felt chocked etc all day.
I guess sack and dismiss are the same in words but what I mean is they can't just tell you to leave. They can dismiss you but will have to give you so many months pay and also show that they have done all they can to support you. They should also try to find you alternative employment in a less stressful position. To dismiss you it would have to go through a tribunal. They can however as an alternative and if you agree to it , do a 'compromise agreement' where you agree to leave with a certain amount of money (slightly more than first option) and a good reference. The latter in my opinion is best as it avoids the tribunal process.
Provided your GP can back it up you should get covered by the Disability Discrimation Act (DDA).
As previously said absence under this should be treated very differently else your employer will be on thin ice for sure.
Good luck
seek legal advice. anxiety is a disorder which is covered under the disability discrimination act. All - any number - of absences should be counted as ONE absence only. ive been through the same process myself and had advice from my union. my work have now accepted this, hope yours do too
So...I had my meeting, and threw the Equality Act at them. No written warning this time - just a statement that they want to see the sertraline that I've recently been prescribed actually working (like I have a choice...!!) and that they'll make another Occupational Health appointment.
Still feel like I'm being victimised, though. In 2011 I submitted a request to have a second job outside work (I run a local food and drink website, I hardly make any money from it though, haven't even withdrawn anything from my business account!!) They accepted, as long as I only did it outside working hours - which I have no choice about anyway, as the website is blocked on the office computers!
In the absence meeting today, they told me that as of March 1st I will no longer have permission to do my second job as they feel it's contributing to my absence. This is despite me saying that my anxiety affects life both at work AND outside of it, and that there's no link whatsoever. It's ridiculous! It's essentially just a blog that makes a little bit of money from advertising! I think they're just trying to throw anything they can at me, which doesn't help the matter at all. They wouldn't even tell me in the meeting WHY they think it's affecting my work - I had to submit a formal request by email afterwards to find out why. I doubt I'm going to get a reply.
This is starting to feel a lot like harassment now... :(
Well done for trying to stand up for yourself, but your work can't govern what you do in your own time (i.e. your food & drink blog). The only reason they would have anything to do with a second job is for tax reasons, and even then if you don't make enough to pay tax on the second job there is no reason why your primary work should know about it.
I do make enough in my day job to pay tax on both, that's the problem :(
Not enjoying being here at all any more, now that they know they can't go down the disciplinary route, it just seem like they're doing all they can to make my life here as miserable as possible!!
As far as the tax goes at least then, if I were you I would declare your main job as your primary income and pay basic rate tax on whatever you make from the second job. The actual tax paid will work out the same, but your first job shouldn't need to know anything about the second one going forwards as it won't affect your tax deductions by them.
I sympathise with you, really, as I went through the same thing in June & July last year. I ended up leaving because of the kind of treatment you're describing. It isn't a course of action I would recommend for everyone, but it worked for me and 6/7 months on I'm all the better for it.
HOW DARE THEY treat you like this! They can say its affecting your first job having a second job BUT won't elaborate on their comments? Bizarre !!! Elle-Kay is right they don't really need to know what you do, I suppose because you've used thier computer for that purpose, at times, they think they've got ammunition to fire which strengthens their case towards you.
My advice - make a diary of times, comments they made & how they made you feel.
:winks:
It's insane. It honestly does just make me think that they're looking for a way to get rid of me - but it's not as though the quality of my work has suffered (but obviously on the days when I'm sick, they can't rely on me to get things done which is understandable). They don't seem to be able to understand how I can update my website when I'm off sick from work - despite me saying "well my brain and my hands still work, if you let me work from home instead of phoning in sick then it wouldn't be an issue". They won't let me work from home as "it's a full time, office-based role".
I thought employers had a duty of care to uphold?!? Today's decision by them has made me feel worse, not better!!!
And Ellie-Kay...just reread your tax post again...my employer will still know about the second job because it's a blog that they're all aware of :(
Well...as requested, I submitted a formal written request to my boss, asking for her reasons behind removing permission for a second job. I explained that I don't make a huge amount of money from it (I haven't withdrawn any money from the account in the year and a half that it's been open!) and only originally applied for permission as I wanted to do the right thing. I explained that - as a blog - it's a useful distraction from the anxiety, and that it's more of a hobby than a job. I told her that her saying permission is being removed has just made me more anxious, as it's forcing me to stop doing something I enjoy and that other people love (the blog won an award recently, that's how big it is, I can't just stop doing it!)
Yesterday I had a letter back from her saying that they believe it's affecting my energy levels and the decision still stands.
I honestly don't know what to do - it just feels like victimisation :( In my letter I also suggested waiting to see what happens when my sertraline kicks in, and highlighted the fact that I haven't had any time off this year so far (it's a big thing for me, and there are days when I really wish I'd stayed at home - I'm making myself worse by coming in to an environment where things are so stressful!)
It made no difference whatsoever. I'm not sure what I should do now - it's starting to affect my relationship too as I'm so down and anxious the whole time :(
I'm very sympathetic for your situation, but I can only think of a way to word this that is very plain so please don't be offended: your employer CANNOT dictate what you do in your non-work time. No matter how many times they say their decision stands, or for what reasons, they CANNOT dictate your leisure time. If they tried to dismiss you for ignoring their demands I think they would find themselves in a whole heap of trouble.
It's confusing, though...it's in my contract that I need written permission for a second job, and I can't keep the blog running without this small amount of revenue from it :(
I think it all honesty you need to get an appointment with your local Citizen's Advice Bureau employment specialist for more specialised advice.
I have a blog too, and did whilst I was working, and I would have hit the roof if my employer had tried to dictate that I could no longer use my blog because of my work with them.
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