View Full Version : I feel so so sad and pointless
Iv just realy had enough of this kind of existance.I just cant hack this anymore.iv tried and tried and trird.Iv tried meds of all kinds cbt , advice etc etc.you name it iv had it.iv changed my lifestyle i exorsize i eat healthy and yet i get NOTHING BACK FROM ANY OF IT.I feel cheeted and pointless .Just existing from one day to the next , hoping , dreaming i'll have a good moment,, not asking for much..Just 1 moment of feeling some kind of joy, upbeat moment...NOTHING...I feel shit I hate my life I have no confidence about me or anything i do..I cant talk or socialize i cant enjoy anything..not my familly my kids my wife..It has all become a diststant dream of something i had a LONG TIME AGO..my wife is sick of hearing my shit she dosnt know what to say and i feel so so isolated and alone.when i dare to talk to ANYONE i get heavy derealization effects and depersonilization so i cant even hear my own voice without it feeling odd and scary.I cant escape it no matter what i try..I just want to evaparate and disapear..I wake every night around 3-4am and dont get back to sleep so i feel heavy tierd and with bad head pains and my eyes hurt so much for not sleeping for months and months..I have no outlook in life i feel traped imprisoned in a shell as i watch the world go by...So what could i POSSABLY have to look forward to when every day and night is filled with everything i just described...Iv never yet felt this negative and im not even worried if suesidle thoughts crept in.I would welcome them and act on them as they would take control of my mind making me feel its tne right thing to do...and finally have some sort of desire ...I cant spell which is so frustrating...Im 46 male and been on this forum to long..
ladymillion
18-01-13, 18:11
I know how you feel, i feel so isolated and lonely and it seems like noone understands or they get embarrased when i want to talk. i keep my problems a secret there are only a few close family members that know some of my problems but i just find it all too embarasing to share.
Anyway the reason i have replied to your post is to let you know that other people feel the same way and also that i hope you can get through it.
All we want is to be happy.......take care
Hello Gregcool
You sound so angry and low it's difficult to know how anyhting I could say would make any difference - but that won't stop me from trying. I'm new to this depression lark so no expert but what I do know now, is that you have to experience it to understand the pain people who suffer it go through.
I only hope that the support you can get on here can give you some hope that things can get better for you and your family. I have read accounts of how people have made a full recovery even though they have felt like you do now.
I don't think you should worry about being on this site for too long - that's what it's here for - there's no limit on love and care you know and that's what people here are trying to do. As for your spelling - that's completely irrelevant and no reason at all to feel bad about yourself. You describe how you feel exceptionally well so are obviously an articulate and intelligent person so what's a few spelling mistakes between friends? You shouldn't be so hard on yourself.
I really do think you need to talk to someone about your present thoughts. It's important you see someone as soon as is practical. Never give up hope that this illness will be cured.
Sending positve thoughts and love and stregnth to you by the magic of the internet . Take care. :hugs:
hi Gregcool, forgive me for asking but i've only just joined so don't know your story & background, but what, if any, meds are you on just now? and are you still receiving any kind of therapy?
i agree with Pigeon, you need to talk to someone - someone who won't be hurt or emotionally affected by the extent of your sadness & frustration. human beings are incredible, we can come back from being so far down, both mentally and physically, with the right care... you'll get there!
have you thought about doing a couple of hours in a charity shop? i know it might sound silly, but just helping out somewhere, with no pressure, and adding an achievement to your day, might help you start feeling like the important & worthy person you are. :)
gregcool
It's two week to the day since you last posted and then you seemed fairly positive and now if I may say you seem to be desperate.
Has something dramatic happened in the intervening two weeks ?
If so, we are here to help you.
I am so sorry you are feeling like this at the moment and I know this will be hard for you to accept but it will get better. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make things better for you but I am sending you virtual hugs and hope things improve for you soon. Try to think about the positive things over the past week and focus on those. You will get better, it takes time :hugs::hugs::hugs:
Nothing has happend just sliped into some dark place over the last couple of weeks.I think i had a day or so of feeling slight possitive thinking,but it just hasnt lasted and iv never felt this lowor fedup with it all.My sleeping ( notnsleeping ) is making it all so much worse waking every night at silly times and not falling back to sleep.Then going down stairs and just sittingand waiting for sleep to return...Its rediculous having to do this every nigh.nlt getting any sleep or respite from my day..i dont look forward to bedtime as it brings me sp much destress and depression..so i cant even escape to my bed and sleep it off...im not on any meddicatipn other than Trazadone 50mg judt to help me fall to sleep..its the staying asleep thats the problem..iv tried various snti depressants and cbt etc etc..none helped.meds made me worse for weeks and weeks..so fed up with spending a year to try 2-3 different meds then coming off them ...ahhh its just a big fad..my life is like a running comintary in my head , min by min..im constantly telling myself how i feel every moment qestioning myself about everything i think and do...Its all draining and i am just running out of energy to cope with it anymore.I take risks in my day because i wouldnt care if something bad happend to me because of silly desissions...im just sick and fed up being like a walking diary and spectator in my day and life..i just want to be able to switch it ALL off..ind wonder how the day has gone by so quick...
Greg, you say - it's all become a distant dream, after the wife and kids bit! Has something happend or are you not happy at home???
I'm just trying to clarify your very serious thread. You sound like your not telling the full story! Not like you have to off course, just seriously want to help you because of the feeling I get from reading your thread! Hang in there and great advice above,u need to talk to someone really whose disconnected!
Many:hugs:
Sorry I must have posted same time as you. Ignore the first bit - has something happend. X
I think sleep is a vital factor here, u need sleep!
I have been having problems with sleep and someone had posted about sleep, can't remember who but they said their therapist told them when they can't sleep to count backwards from 500. I have tried that and it is actually working. I always wake about 3am with all sorts of things on my mind but this counting backwards has helped me get back to sleep. I have never got lower than 300. :hugs:
Col and I got the same vibes and obviously we were perhaps on the wrong track.
It is indeed a serious thread and at this stage I would seriously advise you to see your doctor ASAP. You said meds haven't helped you before but there are so many different kinds of medication that at least could help you short term and make you think clearer, feel a bit better and of course sleep.
Sleep is a wonderful start to recovery.
Please go and see your doctor.
Guys thankyou for your advice..Nothing has happend , just have got so much worse dont know why..its been getting worse over the last 5 months or so, with some respite.and while being possotive around that time , thinking it will improove soon..but i can just feel this deep dark shadow with all my isues iv named just all very full on , all day and all night like im being tortured beyond my coping abilities...like a dripping tap on your head for weeks and weeks.. the torment is just to much..i have nuroulger in my face which is so painfull and gets worse when stressed.and i dp work volentary in a shop and an outreach program to help others, and still i just feel very desperate,,,I keep having dreams where i die in some way..eather being shot or killed in some other way..i keep having thoughts of me and a 4 pack of cider and 20 fags.and going to my red light district and paying for a hooker....
I gave up smoking 9 years ago and gave up drinking about 5 years agp..but keep having this feeling this is what i want to do and then die prehaps in the woods after consuming my desires..i dont know what this all meens but its real and im not aftaid that i feel like this anymore..I almost feel i wosh it would just draw me to doing it because they wete all pleasures i havent had that i know made me feel good..sorty if this is grafic but its how i feel.
The dreams are just dreams becuase you are troubled and nothing else. The thoughts are because you're exhausted and stressed and not thinking rationally. You really, really need to go back to your GP.
Show him/her what you posted on here if you can't explain it. Do it for all the people on here who care what happens to you
xxx
Greg,
please please go back to your doctor, if only to tell him how you feel or even
a and e and ask to see the psych on call. if you don't want to go to hospital please go to your doctor on Monday and tell him the tablets you take for sleeping are not working and you won't something else be upfront and tell him how you feel. you can't carry with no sleep hardly.
I don't sleep very well if I take a zopiclone(sleeping tablet) I take it at 10pm and go to bed about hour later and will prop wake at 4.30am turn over then wake again at 8ish.
I know how you feel as I have been there and some days still not good
but just think if you did anything your wife and kids would never get over it.
Clio how often do you take Zopiclone ? I was on that for 2 months solid.after 3 weeks it stoped working but i was still adicted.and took them for a total of 2 months..but started to wake on them around 3am every morning and found it hard to go back...it took me a couple of moths to come off them..I then suffered reblund insomnia which took a further 2 months to ease off.but iv never been the same since...
Greg. doc told me to make sure I have a break, so I take 7.5mg about 4 Times a week just to make sure I get some descent sleep instead of 2 hours here and there. only had them for 2 weeks.
please go back docs Greg xxxx
Clio I will go to the doctors mon am..I dont have any faith in them at all...iv been there sooooo many times and they are useless all of them..they put you on any med just because they dont really know what to do...Im interestead in your zopiclone intake...if you take 4 times a week, do you sleep on the other 3 days you are not on them...
bernie1977
18-01-13, 22:41
So sorry to hear you're feeling so bad. As others have said you need to see your GP asap.
I've spoken to you before about Trazodone. Have you ever managed to increase above 50mg like your Doctor asked you to? I'm on the maintenance dose of 150mg for anxiety and depression and I feel like a dark cloud has been lifted. I went from 50 to 75 for 2 weeks and had no problems. Then went upto 100mg and after a week I upped to 150mg. I feel groggy and I'm sleeping lots but that's better than the dark moods I had. My anxiety isn't as bad either.
Like you I couldn't tolerate SSRI & SNRI meds. Apart from the tiredness and dry mouth on waking I haven't had any other side effects. If you need any advice regarding the Trazodone please get in touch, I can't offer any medical advice as I'm not qualified but I can share my experience with you.
Take care
Greg. it varies sometTimes I can get off but sometimes it can be about 2 hors before I drop off my mind is constantly going over things like it won't shut up, then when I do drop off I wake up 2/3 Times in the night. but I was like this before using the zopiclone Greg.
why don't you up your dose? like Bernie says is it a sleeping tablet.
I was concerned about zopiclone so phones my local hospital psych ward and spoke to sister and she told me to take 7.5mg I as scared and told her she said it's fine you can take up to 15mg in some cases.
tell them you want to see a psych,somebody who will listen and no more than they do
Greg,
So sorry to hear how you are feeling. The thing is, the more you dwell on it the worse it becomes. I agree you need to see your GP or go to your local A&E as soon as you can. It is not doing you any good at all feeling this low.
The dreams can be frightening, worrying and also exciting...like you are dreaming of negative things, which is how you are seeing your life right now, and also things that may bring you some pleasure. You are in that spiral of negative thinking which is made worse by the lack of sleep & ruminating.
Plan something exciting for your wife & yourself if you can. Something to look forward to. Right now, all you are seeing is negatives. You have a family, they need you, but you also need to take some time out for YOU.
I was in a bad place & went and had a small tattoo. It sounds stupid, but it felt so good to do something for ME. Build on the small things that you can still get pleasure from...write a 'things I want to do list' anything, no matter how small the things are, to give you some pleasure. Try to do one small thing that is pleasureable each day.
I wondered, have you had CBT? I found it really helpful but I know it's not for everyone. Please seek some proper professional help soon.
I wish you well :hugs: Kitti.
i think someone else touched on this earlier - some of what you're feeling could be sleep depravation. another avenue to consider or try is something called Melissa Dream - you can get it from health shops. over the years i've gone through sleeplessness, even diazepam didn't help to a great degree.. tried so many things which didn't work, and in recent months i've done all-nighters, still downstairs at 5am waiting to feel sleepy... the Melissa Dream gives me a lovely night's sleep and no wonky feelings the next day so, if the ingredients are ok for you, and won't contra-indicate anything else you're on, maybe give them a go.
Hi Greg, nothing more to add really to what has been said but just to let you know I am thinking of you and hope this darkness lifts soon so that you can feel better,:hugs::hugs:
Bernie..I got to 100 mg on the traz and i was on it for a couple of weeks..in the whole2 weeks i was still not sleeping and worse i was even heavyer tierdness in the day.My mouth was BONE DRY unbarable...every bteath i took , just felt like a can of dry air being sprayed into my mouth..couldnt stand it after 2 weeks solid..
CLIO.. I still have some Zopiclone 7.5 so will be having one tonight..im so mentaly tiered..wokr again at 2am this morning..drifted back around 3am..woke again 4.30...never went back...aftet days of this torture you just want a way out...i feel like my body and mind are not conected in any way..heavy heavy depression and tierdness...
KITTKAT..I did have CBT..I didnt have any effect fot me..i gave it a good chance but it just didnt work for me.I am today sitting down and ttying to plan things , But i just do not have the disire to want to do anything...Because of my agaraphobia i am limtd to what i can do..but i know what you ate saying is true..so i will try harder..
DAISY i think you are right with the sleep depravation ..Not sleeping for so long now has become a sepetate problem and stress of its own, and def has had a massive impact on my mind...if i had 6-7 hrs sleep every night i would prob be much strongernand feel far more in control...
I have just got back ftom my local shops and purchaced
Melissa Dream and a vit B50 pot of daily tablets..im going to start this tonight..my health shop adviced me not to take for to long, as like any sleep aid it will become addictive...ahhhrrrr just cant win..My only concern is, because im so desperatly tired , I am at the point i will do anyyhing to get my eyes shut and blot out my day..So how do these tablets work in the short tearm..and thankyou all for your support..
---------- Post added at 13:07 ---------- Previous post was at 13:06 ----------
Thankyou for your support Annie
Hope you'll manage to get some sleep tonight :bighug1:
Greg. don't think you can take zopiclone with Melissa dream,think its one or the other I would b wrong though check with your pharmacist at your local chemist they are quite knowledgable.
have you any diazepam take the edge off?
Thanks Ynos,,
I will leave the zopiclone for now..I have 1 Diazepram but have always been nerious about taking it...what ate they for and what are they like...do they effect your mind like taking drugs...etc
Greg when my anxiety gets really bad I take a diazepam they really calm me down and help me to relax and get some sleep. I don't take them regular just when I really need to. They just have a really calming feeling.
gregcool
I don't wish to be rude but don't self analyse yourself and pop up to the chemists.
Several people have advised you to go to your doctor ASAP.
You are clearly in distress and more than likely unable to think clearly.
Please listen to some of the good advise given, though remember we are sufferers not doctors.
really pleased to hear you managed to get some of some Melissa Dream so quickly and easily :) i was also told about the dependence thing... i reckon if you take one a night for say 5 nights out of 7, you should be fine and not become addicted.. it might even kickstart your own natural sleeping pattern so that you don't need them as much in weeks to come.
just take one tonight, probably an hour before you want to get sleepy, and then just go with the flow... if it works on you like it did me, i was taken by surprise that all of a sudden i really wanted to lie down & sleep - and i did :)
hi Greg.
diazepam works within about 20mins, it doesn't space you out or anything,just brings done your anxiety. mine a're 2mg bt at first when I was really bad was 5mg and they were ok nothing to be scared off honest, there's nobody worse than me .
I purchased some Melissa dream today also so will be taking 2 tonight and I got some tea that's suppose to help your sleep there nothing in it to counteract with the venlafaxine I take only things like camomile and few other herbs.
so we can compare To moz greg if it works . happy sleeping xxx
Melissa Dream does not interact with many anti depressants, so I would check first.
You say you have one diazepram which could be 2mg or 5mg. They will relax you possibly but for only 4/5 hours,so I say again check with your doctor first.Good luck
hi Greg
well took 2 Melissa and a cup of tea that's for helping sleep. waste of bloody time!!!!! and money well for me anyway.
took hour's to drop off, mind was so active nothing in particular and if I did sleep it felt like a very light sleep. I just lay there most of the morning dozing very tired only just got up 10.50 and that's because I need to take ven. I feel so irratable,snappy wound up can' t be bothered talking not good. this is what I'm like when I don't sleep good.
well that's me ,
how was your sleep????
Thanks Richard..I will lok into it all.
Well I had my Melissa Dream last night and woke around 4 times..ahhhhrrrr...why does nothing wotk on me...I will try again tonight
---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 ----------
Clio same as me..hard tp drop off mind more active than norm.and woke a few times and only got light small amounts off sleep.. £13 for that
---------- Post added at 12:10 ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 ----------
I am having a very strong sleepig pill tonight.I need to get some solid sleep or im going deeper in my hole.
sorry guys :( it really did seem to work for me.
Not blameing you Daisy, just really fedup nothing works for me..I got excited when I got the stuff and hsd complete faith in it..after about 40 mon of taking it, I started to feel a bit alert and aware, then I felt slight warmth in my body..But never tired..I couldnt even drift of for ages, which I norm can fall to sleep.then when I did sleep it was so short and light it just didnt seem like I slept all night I just kept waking , then lieing there for ages then small drift and awake again and so on all night...It was worth a try but I will be taking STRONG sleeping pill tonight..
maybe it's a lot to do with your/our state of mind, Greg.. when i took it, i didn't think it would help me sleep. i've tried herbal stuff, various things from the doctor, all the warm bath, camomile drinks, fluffy pillows, lavendar.... bits & pieces of advice you pick up, and absolutely nothing gave me a chance to fall asleep apart from exhaustion which usually kicks in around 5am.
so when i took Melissa Dream, i had no real expectation of it working.
i do feel bad that both of you went out and spent the £13 on my advice, and that it didn't help either of you... maybe give it another go sometime.. but i'm glad you have something stronger to take, to make sure you do get some kip tonight.
Greg I really hope that sleeping pill works for you tonight. sleep deprivation is so bad and increases anxiety so much. I have been having trouble sleeping this past week and last night saw every hour on the clock. I don't know if it is because I have made the decision to return to work. I can't remember the last time I had a full nights unbroken sleep. I think it may have been before my daughter was born and she is 28 this yeaar!
it's horrible isnt it anni
well tried to have a kip this afternoon but my bloody mind won't shut up talking to me about crap.( sorts like I've lost the plot doesn't it)
trying to be positive as much as I can because if I stay with a negative thought I,'ll just go down hill. so at mo, it's so tired and negative then next min come on do something ,move it but I've no energy.
so 2 zopiclone for me tonight, I'm even getting anxious about them now don't want to become reliant on them because already I can't get to sleep without them without laying there for hours and then waking up. aghhhh sick off this it's bringing me down.
well at docs to moz so going to write anything down. also getting things mixed up went to take zopiclone yesterday morning instead of diazapam notice last min. plus I can't think of words I want to say either. oh god
keep plodding on . xxx
I really hope I can sleep tonight, the fact that I have a cold at the moment doesn't help. Maybe I should have some whiskey and lemonade for medicinal purposes only :) I don't usually drink alcohol so when I do it doesn't take long to knock me out!
Daisy. Dont feel bad ..I made my own desission to try out what worked for you...You dnt know till u try..I just found I felt more anxious and not relaxed in any way...Everything effects peps different .I am very hatd when it comes down to medication s.they very rare work on me and Imallways come into that minority that suffer worse..Clio sorry to see you ate going deep to ..Like me , get your Zopiclone in you even just for 1 good nights sleep..If you have days or weeks of not sleeping its very very hard to remain positive about anything..Annie Have a small drink if it works for you and calms you, It prob is extra stress of returning to work, thats a massive shift in life and has so many hidden stresses that your subconscious mind will be thinking about and raising your anxiety levels.Clio just be carefull with the Zopiclone As I told you earlier I had the same desire as you to take them , then I needed more and more..then every night, and then they only put me to sleep but didnt keep me there..and coming off them caused rebound insomnia which was worse than my orig prob and took weeks to slightly improve and asyou can see by all my posts, I still have major sleep probs..
I wish we had a switch that we could turn our minds off on a night time! Honestly some nights I lie awake thinking about things that seem so major in the middle of the night and in the daytime seem like nothing! Whatever we are all taking tonight, i hope we all get a decent nights sleep for a change :hugs:
Greg
what's rebound insomnia??
xx
missfishlash
20-01-13, 19:04
Feeling foryou greg, hope you sleep tonight and feeling for you....massive hugs :hugs:
Rebound insomnia is insomnia that occurs following discontinuation of sedative substances taken to relieve primary insomnia. Regular use of these substances can cause a person to become dependent on its effects in order to fall asleep. Therefore, when a person has stopped taking the medication and is 'rebounding' from its effects, he or she may experience insomnia as a symptom of withdrawal. Occasionally, this insomnia may be worse than the insomnia the drug was intended to treat.
---------- Post added at 19:10 ---------- Previous post was at 19:09 ----------
I had to google it :)
thanks Annie your a star.
bloody hope I having got this
Very well put Annie...Yes Clio from my experience on the rebound insomnia...I went from not sleeping most of the night, to not sleeping at all no matter how tired I was...I wouldnt wish it on anyone...
My Gran always used to have half a sherry glass of brandy before she went to bed to help her sleep. She always slept well and lived to the age of 97 so it did her no harm. Not sure if it was just coincidence that she slept well. (I am not saying we should all start drinking brandy either :) )
Nice storry Annie.I would still say if a small 1 glass of drink helps..then no big deal.I know my mum and dad have for years, had a glass of sherry or whisky before bed, they are both still healthy and in there 70s.they will never stop ...
---------- Post added at 07:11 ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 ----------
Didnt sleep well again last night, ahhrrr.bed at 11.15pm woke at 3am ish..drifted back after some time, only to wake again at 5.30am.been up since...but my brain is saying, I need tons of hrs sleep.Very heavy feeling of exhaustion. ?.
Greg I had exhaustion and this is what lead to panic attacks then anxiety and then agrophobia. It scares me to death that dreaded feeling almost breathless as if someone's sucked the life out of you. I was that exhausted that I used to stand at my window and look at my car parked opposite and I used to think, how on earth am I gonna manage walking to my car.
Ohhhh feel for you, you really need to go docs.
Gregg I was much the same last night. Went to sleep at 11 woke at 3, got back to sleep at 3.30 then woke at 5.30, I was a bit more fortunate though as I did manage to drop off to sleep again and slept until 9.
get to the doc's Greg.
I had 2 zopiclone went to bed 11 and woke 4.40, drifted back off woke 8ish
back at docs 11.30 for 2weekly check
'
AnnieI think you must be waking me up at these times.lol..I have appt to see a main doctor with the mental health team in a week, not the locsl GP who is a kind of jack of all trades.This Doc specialises in Mentsl health and will take my case far more seriously. And know far more options then any local GP...Fingers crossed.they are referring me to a assessment with the sycolagy team for treetmet..I hope something good comes out of this...Clio good to see you having some sleep lets hope you are getting some rem sleep.Col I am allready having these kind of neg feelings you talk about I am literally exhausted from lake of sleep every night of my life then long long days with neg thinking..At least if you get sleep , you have escape from the crap day, somewhere to hide away from it all..I have not bern getting that..In fact because I get so little sleep, when I do get up early hrs am, I just feel like im still in the same day just gone by, just very very extended with no refreshment sleep or rest from my weeks gone by..This is why I have become so low and neg....They say take one day at a time,,, but in my life I do not get seperate days to tske, one at a time, I just seem to get one very very long neverending day that goes on forever..
Greg, I think it must be my husbands snoring waking both of us up! I am sure you can hear it where ever you are in the country lol. I really hope this referral you have will get you sorted and on the road to recovery. :hugs:
I hope you get some help from the MH doc. It must be awful for you having no sleep and constant negative thoughts...like Groundhog Day :mad:
Stay as positive as you can. I know I felt much worse when I wasn't sleeping...I still have some problems with it but usually manage an afternoon catch up which really helps me. Keep us posted. :hugs:
Snoring , thats what I can hear..lol...ohh well at least someone is getting some sleep..anyway Ill keep upto date and hopefully have some positive news soon..Thanks Guys and Girls for ALL THE SUPORT..REALY MEEN THAT.. Please keep me upto date with your own progress es...Im goimg to go ofline for a few days I dont want to keep postimg the same song over and over..see you all soon..
If you are having a bad day, don't think you are boring us with the same story, we are here to help and support so please post if you feel the need to :hugs::hugs:
Greg
God you got appointment very quick with mh team, have you been under them before?
only asking because my doc had to refer me and then it took 2 days for somebody to come to my house then quite a few visits before I was accepted.
good luck Greg, my thought are with you. please let us knows when you can how you are .
xxxxx
good luck with your appointment Greg, this could be your turning point :) please keep us posted!
Greg
God you got appointment very quick with mh team, have you been under them before?
only asking because my doc had to refer me and then it took 2 days for somebody to come to my house then quite a few visits before I was accepted.
HI Clio..yes I have been under them a few months back.they did an assessment on me then 1.5 hrs worth, and said I needed help havnt heard since then other than a appt with the duty doc who put me on traz for sleeping.Spoke to him and asked for this meeting and a change in some new medication...so we will see..Ill keep you posted and hopefully be able to support you guys soon...If I can get this sleep sorted, that would be 1 big thing I can put to rest.but not sure what they will do about it..
---------- Post added at 21:14 ---------- Previous post was at 18:48 ----------
Thanks Daisy
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