2013 Agoraphobia Thread [Archive]

lindadiana

15-02-13, 15:52

im now 54,been agoraphobic since age 11,had a couple of years free from it from aged 16 to 18,dont know why other than i had a good husband i married young and a new baby followed by two more children me thinks its because i felt loved,spent most of my adult life on diazepam.after my divorce and second marrage was ok for a year again (theres that being loved again)but found out id married the man from hell i had a daughter and was expecting my 5th child,then i lost my eldest son whilst trying ti be rid of the man from hell,really bad nerves back on on diazapam,where ive stayed alone on tranqulises rasing kids on my own my parents were old but my savours they took me out everyday so at least i got out,lost my mum xmas 08 my dad had vascular demetia so i took care of him till he passed in xmas 09 they had moved next door to me so i i could help them as i couldnt go down to their house my ex was not allowed any contact with his kids,now im alone living next door to where my beloved parents lived,my kids are teenagers who dont seem to care about my anxiety bbut then thats teenagers i suppose my oldest daughters moving to cornwall and im lost and so lonely,does anyone know of any dating sites for people with mental heath problems that way id have no explaining myself to qoute normal men as i put it,people say your not ready for a relationship but i know from past that when ive someone to love and be loved by i get a lot better,ive treid dating sitesmet quite a few at my home of course ,but i get too embarraseed to say oh im a nutjob by the way lol( i dont think that) but looks i got from those i did manage to tell and never seeing them again said it all,is there anyone on this site looking for partner who maaybe cn advise me where to look,love doesnt just happen ive waited 14 years too long,i still laugh act silly im normal, like many on here just trapped by this illness best wishes to all

steveo

15-02-13, 15:53

Well I am about to see a very expensive psychiatrist (£250!!!) and I'm absolutely bricking it. Just taken half a diazapam to be able to leave the house. Not seeing him so much for my agoraphobia but my mental breakdown in general.
I've built this up to be my last resort. So scared.

flossie

15-02-13, 17:32

Good luck with your appointment steveo. He'd better be a bl***y miracle worker for £250. I'd want him to do my ironing too at that price!
Have you been in contact with your GP at all? You should be able to access CBT through the NHS by being referred by your GP.
There is also an organisation called No Panic. Have a look at their website. They run a telephone helpline if you want to talk through any worries about your anxieties. It is run by volunteers who have all had anxiety problems or are going through recovery themselves. They do not judge, are very kind and understanding about your concerns.
They also run one to one and group CBT courses over the telephone. I have done a group course and am hoping to do another before too long. http://www.nopanic.org.uk/resources.html click the Click Here link in the middle of the page.
There is never a last resort, there is always something worth working towards. It's just that we get to feel so absolutely bogged down and wretched about the whole thing that we forget to appreciate ourselves for all the good things we are and can do. And we are good people and there are lots of good things that we can do. Thinking negatively becomes a terrible habit, a trap that we all fall into at times. I am just coming out of such a period myself.
Please let us know how your appointment went this afternoon and if we can help you in any way.

---------- Post added at 17:10 ---------- Previous post was at 16:33 ----------

Hi lindadiana. Goodness, you had been through the mill haven't you. I am so sorry to read of all the losses you have had.
I'm afraid I am going to join in with your friends about the dating thing at the moment. How about you concentrate just on yourself at the moment, put all your energy into loving you and doing things that make you happy and not worry about anyone else. Make some steps toward recovery then you won't have to worry about explaining yourself and if the time comes to do just that you can be proud of what you have achieved. I am about your age, just a couple of years younger and I don't have a partner either.
You are a good person who deserves to be happy. Learn to love yourself first and to have confidence in your own abilities then hopefully the right man will walk into your life without you having to go on dating sites. Hark at me, I'm beginning to sound like Marje Proops.:D There is probably a man who has his eye on you anyway and when you start to get out a bit more and smiling instead of worrying about panic he will be there waiting to sweep you off your feet. (The local road sweeper just sprung to mind then)
Just don't worry about a man at this time, put yourself first and concentrate on getting to a better place with the agoraphobia thingy.
Have you ever been referred for any kind of therapy by your GP? Would you consider going to see someone for help? As I have just mentioned to steveo in my previous post, No Panic are a lovely group of people. They are another option to consider for your recovery. Please keep them in mind and don't hesitate to call them for help. They have helped me. I can't get out for support so they are ideal for those of us who have problems like ours.
Recovery isn't easy, it is exhausting and frustrating but I hope you will stick with us and we can all help and support each other as we take our little steps to getting out and about again.
I hope I haven't put you off as I'd love to hear if you have any ideas how you would like us to support you. Please keep in touch.

---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 17:10 ----------

Sometimes I look for the excuses not to leave the house and that really is a disappointment to me as I should be stronger.

When I was at my worst it would be weeks on end before I would set foot out of the house and then the world seemed a scary place it was like I was walking slow and the world was zooming past me.

Now I'm learning that my feelings I get are from my mind not my body giving up on me I feel that I can and should be able to push myself more and more but when I do I find that it is so mentally and physical draining it takes a few day to recover.

Hi xtremx. You have probably summed up how we all feel I reckon.
Don't make the mistake of pushing yourself. Accept that this is how you are feeling. That some days it is easier to go out than others and if you are feeling absolutely drained then don't feel bad about having a days rest. When we are exhausted then the anxiety levels rise and it is understandable that the panic is more difficult to accept and relax into.
Feeling guilty because you missed a day going out is negative thinking. Concentrate on all the days you have been out, accept that you are tired and that it will do you good to recharge your batteries for your next outing.
Even those who have no anxiety about going out enjoy a day or two at home thinking about nothing in particular.
You don't have to take giant leaps into recovery, that's when the anxiety will rocket. Take small steps forward, enjoy being out and being able to work through those lesser feelings of anxiety and gradually widen your comfort zone. Accept that recovery cannot be hurried, it takes as long as it takes and it will then be more likely to all fall into place.
Good luck.

steveo

15-02-13, 17:37

Thanks for the luck... turns out my mum got the wrong bl**dy day! It's tomorrow at 4:30pm! I took a diazapam and spent the day shaking about leaving the house for no reason. I only found out when I got there! Still I wouldn't of left the house otherwise so me and my dad went for a nice walk around a lake.
He is the top dog apparently. Registered doctor in 1978 and then went on to do psychiatry. He has been specialising in anxiety and depression as a consultant for longer than I've been alive. That's just the price for going private.
Unfortunately CBT isn't available here on the NHS so i've been paying privately for that too!
Bit annoying when I'm not working (self employed but not taking on any clients).

flossie

15-02-13, 18:12

Oh no. All that build up too. At least you had a nice afternoon with your dad though so it has been a positive day. Try to relax this evening, I expect you are feeling quite wound up with tension at the moment and I hope all goes well for you tomorrow.

nomorepanic

15-02-13, 18:54

Steve - how many sessions for £250

Who told you CBT wasn't available there? The NICE guideline say everyone has have an option of CBT.

kittikat

15-02-13, 19:17

Sometimes I look for the excuses not to leave the house and that really is a disappointment to me as I should be stronger.

When I was at my worst it would be weeks on end before I would set foot out of the house and then the world seemed a scary place it was like I was walking slow and the world was zooming past me.

This sounds exactly like me. Even now I feel that derealisation when I am out. I explained it to my therapist as like being in a bubble and everything around me was distorted and whooshing around. I think it's our minds way of trying to protect us, like we are there, but not, shutting out the external stimulus which could trigger panic

I also believe the reason we look for excuses not to go out is because we feel most safe in our home. That is our comfort zone and the place we would want to be if we were to go into full blown panic mode. I'm sure others will relate to this too. Kitti :)

ricardo

15-02-13, 19:59

I also believe the reason we look for excuses not to go out is because we feel most safe in our home. That is our comfort zone and the place we would want to be if we were to go into full blown panic mode. I'm sure others will relate to this too. Kitti :)[/QUOTE]

This is the biggest mistake I have made in 32 years of having this illness. I got into a comfort zone by only ever feeling moderately stable at home instead of pushing myself more.

kittikat

15-02-13, 20:07

Very true ricardo. Graded exposure therapy and 'baby steps' are the way foward. I have been able to extend my small comfort zone using these methods but the key is facing our fears and staying in the situation until our anxiety reduces itself naturally (which of course it will eventually). Not easy at all, but it's how my therapist taught me to face some of the situations and places that scared me.

AuntieMoosie

15-02-13, 20:34

I'm loving this thread :)

It's such a comfort just to know that there are a few of us about with agoraphobia, it's not quite so isolating then.

Well my story is a pretty long one so I will condense it down.

I believe that all my anxiety and panic and fear started off in my childhood, I was a very frightened child for most of the time. The thing is, when I was frightened as a child, I was having no positive input or help from anyone, so I just learned that anything and everything that I was frightened of, was to be avoided at all costs.

Okay, life went on and I grew into adulthood, a few ups and downs but nothing too terrible. I worked full time and managed to support myself and life was pretty tickety boo :)

Fast forward again and I got married and a couple of year later had my first child, a Son. Although I got a bit of the "baby blues" in the first few weeks, I managed and life carried on pretty much normal.

A couple of years later gave birth to my second born, a Daughter, and, unfortunately, this time I developed severe post natal depression within 8 weeks of her birth and I became so ill that I had to be admitted to hospital where I stayed for 7 weeks.

I believe it was the post natal depression that kicked off my anxiety and panic.....it acted as a trigger.

On the whole I recovered from the depression, but was left with a low level of anxiety, I was aware of it, but on the whole, I coped and managed.

In the 1990's I, sadly, suffered a complete nervous breakdown and was once again admitted to hospital for a 6 week stay. This is the time that my anxiety really reared it's ugly head!!!!.........but I still didn't become agoraphobic.

I went back to full time work when my children were teenagers and, once again, all was fine apart from an unhappy marriage.

I left my marriage, still continued to work full time, I needed to be busy at that time, and I coped with life as best as I could.

I then decided I wanted to further my career. So I started a computer technology and an administration full time course. I really enjoyed the course, loved it in fact and I made some good friends while there.

I was just undertaking my exams when BAM!!!!!!! A full blown, terrifying panic attack hit me on the walk home one evening, I have never experienced anything so petrifying in my life.........I thought I was going to die in the middle of a very busy street :scared15:

This was the start of my agoraphobia, as the panic attacks kept coming every time I was out, so in the end, I just would not go out any more. The world then became this "big, black, horrid and scary place" I went back to what I had learned back in my childhood......."if something scares you.....you just don't do it"!!!!!

This has lead me to being 100% housebound from 2004 right up until last year. I'm now doing the CBT4PANIC via NMP and I'm happy to say that I'm making steady progress with it, it's a lot of work, really hard work, but it's so worth it, finally, I feel that I might be getting my life back on track once again and it's a nice feeling too.

I still have a long way to go, but I will get there in the end :)

I hope this explains me and my history without boring you all half to death :roflmao: :hugs:

xtremx

15-02-13, 21:54

I have a mentour who helps me out when I feel really bad and he replys really quickly to me and he is a you lad in South Africa and he has covered in his emails to me most of the feeling that are discussed on this thread.

And he is studying how anxiety works as he is a fellow sufferer I will post what he has said to me on here it is stuff that we hear from places like cbt but he puts it in a way that is more understandable because he is also using the same advice.

If this makes any sense:)

steveo

16-02-13, 10:31

Steve - how many sessions for £250

Who told you CBT wasn't available there? The NICE guideline say everyone has have an option of CBT.

One session.... Just one. That's the price you pay for private.

I've lived in Cardiff for years and tried getting CBT several times and every time I've heard the same thing. I did have the option to wait 12 weeks for a councillor. In the state I was and still am in, I needed things done now.

I think it's awful. I was lying hopelessly on my bed for 5 days, in constant fear and panic, crying uncontrollably, thinking about self harm and suicide. I rang my GP who came out and just told me to keep taking diazapam. I rang NHS direct LOADS and the best they could offer me was details on free book prescription service, I rang anxiety helplines, I rang a panic attack helpline where a woman just told me to breath, I rang Samaritans, who were more useless than anyone.
There is absolutely nothing available. That's why my 71 year old father has had to come up and stay with me for 2 weeks and my nearly retired mother has had to double her shifts at work to afford for me to get help. They can't see me suffer like this for 12 weeks and I don't think I would be alive if they hadn't intervened over these last weeks.

It's outrageous. I just thank god I have parents like this who would rather go bust than see me like this. When I'm able to return to work I will make sure I pay every single penny back to them.

ricardo

16-02-13, 10:41

Steveo

I live in Spain and the going private rate for CBT (or any other therapy) sessions on a one to one basis for a group of 4 lessons is 280 euros which is approx £235.00 .

I may add that private medical treatment is extremely expensive but all forms of dentistry is half the price of the UK

Alabasterlyn

16-02-13, 10:59

I think it's nice to have an agoraphobia thread, think someone else started one a couple of years ago, not sure what happened to it!

Like many others I think I've been anxious all my life but thought how I felt was how everyone else feels, little did I know.

I was 15 when my anxiety began to interfere with my life so I always use that age as when it started. I had my first panic attack when I was 16 and that was back in 1971 and I can still remember it vividly.

Despite developing agoraphobia around that time I managed to be what I can only describe as a functioning agoraphobic for quite a number of years. I could get the tube into the centre of London to get to the office, but was unable to walk from the tube station to the office as there were no places to seek help if I had a panic attack :ohmy:

Somehow I managed over the years to get married, have a child, ended up divorced and then spent about 7yrs hardly leaving the house.

I'm now living with my partner of 15yrs, who I have to say is very understanding of my agoraphobia. I can get out but not really on my own. However it's nice to be able to do some of the things that people without agoraphobia take for granted, like just being able to go round the supermarket and pick my own groceries.

I haven't had a holiday since 1973 and it still makes me sigh when I hear people go on about how much they "need a holiday" when compared to most of us their lives are blessed as they don't suffer with this awful condition. I'd love to just be able to go out for the whole day, never mind go away on holiday!

ricardo

16-02-13, 11:35

Lyn
you bring up a number of points that I can associate with very well.
Firstly I have been lucky that my wife has stood by me for thirty two years and it has restricted her life and our life and our children's lives as we have never really done anything outside the home together.

It would be nice to just do normal things that others do without even thinking, like go for a walk, just get in a car or just go out on impulse anywhere.

Where I differ is that I have had bouts of this condition. We moved over here for a number of reasons and one was the weather which is meant to lift depression and also to give us a quality of life which was completely different to London. That move in itself was like a military operation and was done in stages.

I play bowls have done since I was thirty on and off and my wife would take me and collect me a couple of times a week and I enjoyed it and am also quite competitive.

Last march I had a major panic attack on the bowls green and had to stop playing during a league match. Someone phoned my wife and it seemed like an enternity until she "rescued" me.

A few days later our daughter got ill with numerous problems and to this day even though she has seen countless specialists she is not much better and it had a dramatic effect on me that I haven't left the house (bar doctors and dentist). for 11 months.
So I seem to have spasmodic agrophobia .

impulse81

16-02-13, 12:25

My agoraphobia kicked off when my first son was born and I got post natal depression,I couldn't do the normal day to day things that a mother would usually enjoy,I couldn't leave the house without having a panic attack,I had no idea what had happened to me,my mother also passed away whilst I was pregnant,so when I finally gave birth all sorts of emotions just took over me,I thought I was going crazy,I was put on medication but it didn't seem to help my partner at the time was a volatile person also and I had no one to talk to,so I turned to alcohol..biggest mistake of my life!,I found the alcohol cured my fear of leaving the house and curbed my anxiety..short term relief!,I ended up drinking every day and functioning for a while I had 3 more children which was selfish of me really as I obviously had developed a drinking problem,any way to cut a long story short I couldn't no longer manage looking after my children under the influence I wasn't drinking to get drunk the alcohol just took the edge off my panic and I was able to go out as long as I had a drink,people started to smell the alcohol on me,social services got involved as I was also being physically abused by my partner also..9 years later I lost my children as they were put Into care I was now an alcoholic,my drinking spiralled out of control for one year after that,and it was to late to get my children back,they got put up for adoption,except my eldest son who was placed with a guardian,I am now 7 months sober and fighting to get my son back,my agarophobia is still here,I can only leave the house with my new partner,I'm taking 100mg of sertraline and on the waiting list for c.b.t..hoping this helps me!,thanks for listening guys! X

---------- Post added at 12:25 ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 ----------

I totally admire people on this site for coping with anxiety and phobias,as I took the wrong route probably the cowards way out by turning to alcohol,it was the biggest mistake of my life,as at the end of the day I've lost everything and all I'm left with is my anxiety and agoraphobia,if I would of known then what I no now,things would of been so different!

AuntieMoosie

16-02-13, 18:18

Ricardo I agree with you about our "comfort zone's" :)

The thing you have to watch though with that, is that I found that my comfort zone became smaller and smaller........in fact sometimes, I wouldn't want to leave my bedroom to go downstairs :unsure: I found I was becoming more and more restricted, my world was getting smaller and smaller :weep:

The common thing with all the agoraphobics that I know, is that we all make that fate full mistake, and that is, we all "stop doing" and we all "stop going" That plants the first seed of the "big, black and bad forest" that we end up trapped in :)

My advice to anyone who suffers with panic attacks or anxiety while they're out is......please DO NOT stop "going" and "doing" to take this action is to just confirm to ourselves, mistakenly, that there is something to be frightened of :)

impulse.....I'm so sorry that you've suffered so badly with your agoraphobia.
I can see how turning to alcohol, for anyone who suffers with panic and anxiety, is a very easy route to go down, many have fallen into that trap in order to try to relieve themselves of the awful symptoms of panic. Trouble is, you then end up with yet another problem which will need to be addressed.......alcohol is a short term fix for a long term problem :) I will freely admit to you all now, that several times, I have been tempted to have a drink in order to be able to go out......thankfully, I chose not to do that, but I really do understand just how easy it is to go down that route when seeking relief. :)

Thank you to everybody that is taking part in this most interesting thread :)

It's sometimes really hard to talk openly about our issues and it takes some bravery to do that :)

I think we are going to all learn a lot from this thread, I know I am already :) :hugs:

robinhall

16-02-13, 20:47

Hi Auntie Moose

Just wanted to say thank you for encouraging others to try CBT4PANIC - it has clearly helped you which is really great. :)

I hope you don't mind if I add something to your post - that while eventually learning to stay with panic for prolonged periods through controlled graduated exposure is very important - it is equally as important that people know HOW to do this without becoming overwhelmed.

Some people try too much too soon and then they get put off the idea of exposure (or CBT) altogether.

Auntie Moose is doing so well because she followed the correct steps - she learned the necessary cognitive and behavioural skills needed BEFORE she undertook gradual exposure work.

Without these skills and an understanding of how and why exposure practice works I wouldn't suggest that anyone just tries to 'stick it out'. You could either feel under considerable pressure or feel overwhelmed. Even during controlled exposure practice it's not always easy to stay with it.

The best thing is to get some CBT or work through CBT4PANIC

I know you (Auntie Moose) meant all this in your post so I hope you don't mind me clarifying this point which you know is vital :)

Robin

Col

16-02-13, 20:51

Hi all. Mine was breakdown then severe tick all the box, panic attacks then ~ agrophobia crept in for 6 months of my life! The only thing I had to do and imperatively COULD NOT avoid was school run, a 5 minute drive up the road! Luckily my daughter, being 8-9 and she was sensible enough fo me to tell her that I wasnt able to walk to the school entrance and plus had a 1 year old ~ I was exhausted and petrified and felt strange and that's why I wanted to just stay home! So my daughter would wave to me as she walked through the school gate, I'd turn round cross a little road , jump in the car and whizz off! Didn't want to talk to other mums like I used to and I used to stand and chat sometimes up to a good 40 minutes after kids had all gone into school! That was my day! I'd order food via the web and any extras milk & bread I'd text hubby & ask on his way home can you get some plz! 6 months and the guilt especially as I used to be so up and go with the kids I'm the type of mum who felt guilty before I was a panic sufferer , if I didn't take my kids out most days in the hols! My daughter is my saving grace in a way because being gun to the head forced to send your kids to school, u can't get out of that for a week NEVER mind 6 months! And yep I could have asked my friend to get her and did a few times but, I still HAD to take my little girl in the end. I thought well being such a crap mum right now , it's the least I can do getting her to school and back is her right and I DID NOT want my illness to affect her schooling! It used to get to 2pm and knowing school run was imminent, my heart would race like I'd ran a marathon CONSTANTLY . A few times I'd drive crying my eyes out with my little baby in the car. It took 6MONTHS to calm down and do school run without a surge of adrenaline.

I'm improved not better, never will be. Im Not giving up but when you feel sosooooo bad every time your out, why would anyone want to bother, the feelings/sensations are horrendous, any respite from that even if it's not the right respite, I'd quite easily resort to, even now! It's no fun any way when you feel like crap every time your out! NOW I do go out , go park again, do shopping myself BUT I feel like I'm crumbling inside 2 yrs on ~ still not recoverd. I just have learnt that in a way I have to plod on and tell myself " Collette you feel like this every time, nothings gonna happen you'll be home soon"!

Robin hall, exposure and all these techniques when you have dependants - is not a choice, I used a common sense approach and adopted little and often mantra! I'd set a goal and I'd walk to first lamp post and do this a few times and then try walking to the next post! I started a hobby to take my mind off me, slept more and started eating a bit better, I tried Manukau honey and tapping and they did help!

AuntieMoosie

16-02-13, 20:58

Hi there Robin :)

Yes I agree 100% with what you've said and I'm glad you have added that as it is very important :)

I've still got a way to go myself yet, it's something I'm having to constantly work with all the time that I'm out.

I, sadly, still haven't managed to go anywhere on my own yet Robin :weep:

I've tried having my partner stay in the car while I go in a sit in the doctors waiting room on my own and I've sometimes had him park then I'll go into a small shop on my own, I seem to be able to manage to do that now :) But I'm still petrified of going completely alone :weep:

I've got myself a bit stuck on quite how I plan that move??....even when thinking about it, and now, by me just posting about it, I can feel panic welling up and I'm frightened :weep:

Robin can you possibly give me any guidance on how I can tackle this next stage, cos I'm stuck with it??

Many thanks :)

robinhall

16-02-13, 21:09

Hi Auntie Moose

I wouldn't want to cause any confusion by trying to answer that in the short space of a forum reply so we could discuss it via PMs and then maybe post some of that to the forum at a later date?

Can I at least say here that you ARE moving forward slowly but surely so give yourself a pat on the back for that. Isn't it great too that you want to do MORE exposure :)

It will just be a matter of careful planning.

Robin

nomorepanic

17-02-13, 01:26

One session.... Just one. That's the price you pay for private.

I saw a private therapist and the sessions were £95 for 50 minutes

£250 is way over the top !

little wren

17-02-13, 08:34

it is equally as important that people know HOW to do this without becoming overwhelmed.

Some people try too much too soon and then they get put off the idea of exposure (or CBT) altogether.

...learned the necessary cognitive and behavioural skills needed BEFORE she undertook gradual exposure work.

Without these skills and an understanding of how and why exposure practice works I wouldn't suggest that anyone just tries to 'stick it out'. You could either feel under considerable pressure or feel overwhelmed. Even during controlled exposure practice it's not always easy to stay with it.

The best thing is to get some CBT or work through CBT4PANIC

Robin

Hi Robin

Well said! I have always thought that part of tackling agoraphobia is knowing that I have a toolkit of coping mechanisms to see me through when I am outside and start feeling unwell. Perhaps its about confidence in coping skills.

kittikat
Thanks for letting me know cbt is available on the NHS and that it has helped. I think I am going to ask psych. if I am eligible for cbt for agoraphobia. Will not get my hopes up though as I don't think its part of NICE guidelines (correct me if I'm wrong anyone) so I will not be able to argue my case for it very well, but I definitely want to give it a go if he says ok.

---------- Post added at 08:34 ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 ----------

Hi everyone,

I would like to be able to walk my dog too little wren, and i know rain would too, maybe this is something we can all help each other to do over the summer?
Hugs to you all
Stelly xxxx

Stelly

That is a good idea - it's strange how something so simple like dog walking is difficult. The good thing about this is I know I cannot get out of it as our dog needs time to unwind outside and hubby cannot always do it. Nice to know others understand.

little wren x

flossie

17-02-13, 09:23

It's great that so many are joining in this thread and sharing their story. Hopefully others will join in too along the way.
So, it is one thing saying 'I want to feel better about going it' and another thing to actually putting in the time to learning the coping skills and then exposing ourselves to putting them into practise.
What are you immediate goals? Is there something you want to be able to do but can't work out how to go about it?
For myself, I need to go back to basics. I have fallen back over the winter but on the positive side I feel that I will be able to move forward to where I was in recovery if I take it steadily. Starting from today I will focus on my breathing and relaxation exercises. My head has been a bit muddled lately and I haven't been able to concentrate or had the motivation to do anything.
Getting back to doing the meditation each day I know will help me. I find it really balances me emotionally.
I am not going to worry about going out at this point. As long as I do go out that front door at some time every day is good.

My dog has been brilliant for me. He has been so important in my going out. I was housebound with agoraphobia for 20 years and getting Ollie is the best thing I have done ever. For those of you who have a dog take advantage of having them as a tool to getting out. Dogs don't care where they go as long as they do go out. Just take them to the nearest tree or lamp post at first. Up and down the road, then to the post box. I cannot describe to you the first time I posted a letter myself, I was on a high for days. With a dog you can walk up a street and turn round at any time without feeling as self conscious as you might if on your own. I started going out with him in the evening, no one would see me panic or that I had poo'd my pants or wet myself, being out was more impotant. I would only be going down the road so I could get back home if I needed to. And guess what? I didn't do any of those things that had kept me in for years and years. Don't think of it as having to go out, do it because it is what you want to do. Wanting to go out just to please myself rather than feeling I have to because of what everyone else wants or expects of me has been a big and important change of thinking for me.
Especially at this time of year when everything is springing back to life, step outside of your front door, breath in the fresh air and feel the sun on your face. Listen to the birds and just enjoy it.
Anyway, I have rambled on from my original reason for posting.
I am going to start my meditation and breathing again.
What would you like to do to move forward with recovery?

Kells81

17-02-13, 10:34

Hi everyone.
I had emetophobia from a very young age and this escalated into agoraphobia a few years ago-mainly due to all my avoidance through emetophobia. The agoraphobia gradually got worse and worse until I was house bound for several months, I'm now at the point where I can leave the house and go for a drive on my own for a few miles but I don't get out the car, I can also go to the local shops with my mum occasionally. My life is extremely restricted at the moment.
One thing that has always helped me, especially when I am going through a stage of not leaving the house it to keep a diary with weekly goals. Each Monday at the top of the page I write my weekly goal eg to drive a certain distance- I then highlight this in green. Each day I write everything I do and if I reach my goal I highlight that entry green as well. If I do anything else that I think is a real achievement I highlight that it pink. at the end of the week i put a tick or cross next to my weekly goal. The next week I then have the same goal if I didn't do it the week before or I have a new goal-one that I think is more challenging.
This method really works for me as it allows me to tick off progress, I also get to the point where I want lots of goals achieved so I try really hard to do this.
It is great being able to look back and seeing all the green and pink entries, especially when I'm having a bad day a feel like I can't do anything.
This week my goal was to drive specific circlular route twice in one week-I have done it once this week so far so I know that if I don't do it tonight I can't tick off my weekly task and I will have it again next week!

steveo

17-02-13, 11:57

I saw a private therapist and the sessions were £95 for 50 minutes

£250 is way over the top !

This isn't a private therapist. He is a consultant psychiatrist. The most senior in south wales.

flossie

17-02-13, 13:24

steveo: Was he able to give you any advice and help?

steveo

17-02-13, 17:06

Yes he was the most help I've had since my mental breakdown.

It was more medication advice. He is basically as qualified as you can be in this field.

He has advised me to up my Citalopram to 30mg and put me on Pregabalin for a month. Also told me to not fear taking diazapam as I won't get addicted in the short term.
He also told me in the nicest way possible that this is my fault for coming off my tablets last year. Basically last year I was in the best mental health state of my life so I decided to come off the tablets. Big mistake. That's when things happened.

So it's a case of getting this medication back into my system. The road to recovery is long but I think I can finally see some light at the end of this horribly dark tunnel.

My dad is taking my back with him to Cornwall on Wednesday so I will hopefully start going outside in the quiet countryside there fingers crossed.

These new tablets are making me feel drunk/stoned though.

He has been the most helpful since this happened. Better than CBT. I've cancelled my CBT infact.

little wren

18-02-13, 09:57

flossie - I agree with making small steps - today took dog out (early morning when no-one around) just down the road by self before he had his proper walk with hubby. I just made myself go. Like I said on my other post I feel as if I have so few coping skills though - I literally fling myself into it and hope for the best x
ps thanks for the link about no panic :) I hope it works well for you - I have a book about tackling agoraphobia using cbt and I am aiming to work through that. I just wish I felt I had some coping skills to fall back on.

flossie

18-02-13, 11:10

little wren: please give some serious thought to trying the help through No Panic.
They will teach you the skills you need to cope with going out. The nice thing compared to a book is that you have the feedback and support from the group leader and the others in the group who are facing their own difficulties. The group leader will have been through similar problems as you so will completely understand your anxieties. They will understand the need to take recovery slowly and you would be able to talk about your next steps. Having a voice on the end of the phone, understanding and giving encouragement is very helpful during times of confusion on how to tackle recovery and making forward steps.
The most important part to recovery for me are the breathing and relaxation exercises. Do you spend a part of your day listening to a relaxation CD and reminding yourself how to breathe properly?
Well done for taking the dog out this morning. Just enjoy the feeling of being out, do it because you want to rather than need to.
It took me a long time to accept that as an agoraphobic I could make going out either the most horrendous experience or fun. I have chosen the fun option. My problem is still there but how I tackle it is up to me. I now view it as a challenge to be relished and each time I go out, usually with the dog, I look at it as an adventure. I have days when I'd rather not go out but I do, maybe for just a short walk and because I am becoming used to taking more notice of what is around me on my better days it becomes a habit even when it is a rough one. This is when the breathing exercises help so much. You can't panic when you are relaxed.
Keep thinking small steps. Build up the foundations for moving on to a wider comfort zone. Have faith in yourself. We are all so much stronger than we give ourselves credit for.

little wren

18-02-13, 19:58

Thank you so much flossie for your kind words. I think it would be easier with the support too. I am hoping I will get onto a CBT list with a clinical psychologist locally but I know they are inundated. If they say no then I think giving the telephone cbt a try may be helpful.

You are so positive - I know how hard it is to keep pushing yourself so you don't slip backwards. I love that you view it as a challenge - a chance to use your breathing techniques. Thanks for the positive words - I really needed to hear them.

little wren x
ps I gave up on my relaxation cd but I may start on it again - perhaps it is practicing to relax the body so the brain gets feedback that all is well.

steveo

20-02-13, 11:51

Today is going to be fun. After almost a month of being agoraphobic, my dad is taking me back to his house to look after me. That's a 4 hour journey from Cardiff to Cornwall. I'm having difficulty even him driving me up the road to the doctors.

Not sure how I'm going to manage this one.

bab

20-02-13, 15:50

How are you doing Steveo?

steveo

20-02-13, 15:53

Still haven't gone! Waiting for a prescription to be filled in at my doctors surgery!! Meant to be done yesterday!

So still sat here all packed up with my dad, anticipation increasing about being on the road for 4 hours!
Can't even plan my diazapam in time as I don't know when the doctors will be ready!! So annoying and increasing my tension unnecessarily!

bab

20-02-13, 16:04

the comforting thing is that you are with your dad to be looked after. I know what your feeling as I live in Glasgow and often feel like this when I visit family in Mnachester. Take water, books, magazines,crosswords, pen and food. Not that you will need it but you are never far away from emergency services.

steveo

20-02-13, 19:56

Does anyone else have trouble adjusting to a changed situation?

For instance, the other night I drove to my girlfriends house which is about 20 mins away. I was dreading leaving the house and the car journey there and for the first few hours I felt awful! I slowly got used to the situation and felt fine. Then around 9pm as I was leaving I starting to feel nervous again about having to go back to my house, which is my 'safe zone'.

I'm writing this as I'm on my way to Cornwall to my dads house. It's a house that I grew up in as a kid, I still have a bedroom there. It's a lovely quiet house in the middle of nowhere. But I'm dreading the change!

I''ve only just become agoraphobic after a nervous breakdown so this is new to me. Does anyone else experience this?

flossie

20-02-13, 21:30

You can have more than one safe zone. It doesn't have to be the home only.
A safe zone can also include a friends home, the car, the library for example.

symptsons

21-02-13, 04:04

How can i receive treatment when i can't even make it to the end of my street ? Does anybody know if home treatment is available in Ireland ?

little wren

21-02-13, 07:12

symptsons - I feel that way too. I don't know if there's anything available in Ireland - I'm trying to see if there is anything available in England. Have you asked your GP? The most in need - those who cannot go very far from the house seem to be left to just get on with it. I am asking about cbt this week and how I could access it - I may not even be eligible. I think there are telephone support lines which help with cbt (flossies post).
little wren x

Rain

21-02-13, 08:31

Symptsons, I am in Ireland. I received Cognitive Behavioural Therapy for agoraphobia after a wait of about six months free of charge, on the state. The therapist came to my house and first went through a list of questions with me. Then we progressed to me going to places I had chosen as 'least scary' with her in her car. She took me to pubs (!), where I sat with her and had to rate my anxiety on a scale of 1 to 100 and we stayed there until the number went down. On my last session with her we went to Tescos. This was about 7 years ago but hopefully such a service will still be available for you. Good luck.

Alabasterlyn

21-02-13, 10:13

My experience with CBT for treating agoraphobia in the UK hasn't been very successful. Despite managing to get a "therapist" to come to the house I got nowhere. It seems that a lot of these people have been fast tracked from other specialities and I soon realised I knew more about agoraphobia than the person who was supposed to be helping me. I was also really disappointed to be told that we couldn't go out in the therapist's car as they didn't have insurance cover to take out patients. I find that quite stupid as what I wanted was someone to go to places that I found difficult which for me always means going out in the car.

flossie

21-02-13, 10:40

I walked to the High St in the small town near the village I live on Monday. That is the first time since the beginning of December. I even went into a shop to buy a birthday card. Also a couple of days this week I have taken the dog for a longer walk than I have managed for quite a while. The weather was nice which helped lift my mood too. :yesyes:

---------- Post added at 10:40 ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 ----------

My experience with CBT for treating agoraphobia in the UK hasn't been very successful. Despite managing to get a "therapist" to come to the house I got nowhere. It seems that a lot of these people have been fast tracked from other specialities and I soon realised I knew more about agoraphobia than the person who was supposed to be helping me. I was also really disappointed to be told that we couldn't go out in the therapist's car as they didn't have insurance cover to take out patients. I find that quite stupid as what I wanted was someone to go to places that I found difficult which for me always means going out in the car.

Perhaps you need the help from a CPN now to follow on from the CBT.

Rain

21-02-13, 10:47

Well done Flossie! :yesyes:

Col

21-02-13, 19:10

Yep fantastic that Flossie - great will power & determination x

flossie

21-02-13, 20:17

Thank you, it is appreciated.

little wren

22-02-13, 06:50

Flossie - well done :) I bet you felt great afterwards x

beautifulfreak77

22-02-13, 11:20

hi good morning..im agoraphobic with panic disorder...and my first panic attack was 15 years ago and i did start to become agoraphobic then but i didnt understand what was happening but it sort of went for a few years,but the last say 5 years it slowly crept back,and as you all my world has shrunk,i can only go out with my kids or my dog i dont have a partner,and i cant go very far from home,i have had cbt but to be honest as it was out of my comfort zone i just sat there and shook and wished the hour away,only taking in half of what was said...but i have been pushing myself a bit more lately..i can walk about a mile and a half from my house and i went 10 miles in a car the other day..i dont drive that was with a family member altho i did feel quite bad but didnt have full blown panic attack..i also find it weird and i think this was mentioned by rain on another thread how somedays i can go out and not feel to bad at all and other days i step outside and i just wanna cry and run back in doors...i think il always be agoraphobic..im starting to accept it now...anyway thanks for reading,and its been good reading your experiences too...and at least we have each other to talk to and support each other..i hope your all having a good day...take care x

Pinktel

22-02-13, 11:30

Just thought I would add my name to this thread!
Battled agoraphobia, health anxiety, GAD, social anxiety and Panic Disorder with depression, hyperventilation syndrome, throughout my twenties and thirties (approaching the big 4 0 this year :scared15:) and decided i needed a more systematic approach to recovery at this milestone.

I turned to cbt4panic having read so much about it on this website.

Have read most every self help book on the market, the linden method, acupuncture, meditation, counselling and private CBT with a psychologist, I thought I pretty much knew all there was to know about anxiety.

Turns out I was pretty much right but for some reason Robin Hall presents the same information I understood already but in a way which actually resonates and makes more sense to me. That alone spurs me on to understand how important the process is of re training the brain (which CAN be done), and the clever systematic methods needed to go about this are explained in a clear way.

Plus for me the main bonus is I can work at my own pace. Even if I was scared to step outside the back door to my garden (fortunately as I have operated with this anxiety for over twenty years with a young family albeit I lost my job due to anxiety, I can go out at least to do small local quick things!) then I would spend as long as I need to just getting comfortable with stepping outside the back door until I was ready to go out the front door.

In this way the pressure to flood yourself (which put me off other CBT programmes) is eliminated.

I am still a long way from doing all that I would like, restaurants, holidays, planes, driving long distances, theatres, supermarkets, watching school plays etc. but I know I am better than I was when I ordered the cbt4panic. And just because I am currently unable to do all these things, I now understand that does not mean I won't be doing them one day.

flossie

22-02-13, 11:41

Hi beautifulfreak77. I can't call you a freak so I would like to call you beautiful77. I have mentioned this in earlier posts but there is a charity who do fantastic work called No Panic. You can access help from them over the phone. They run CBT courses for people like us who find it difficult to leave home. There is a £12 annual membership fee and you will then be able to ask for one to one support or a group course. No Panic also have a helpline if you need to talk anything through regarding your anxiety and recovery. Take advantage of them, they are there waiting to help.
Well done for taking that car journey the other day. That is something I haven't been able to do yet.

---------- Post added at 11:41 ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 ----------

Hi Pinktel. Thanks for telling your story. I am struggling with lack of confidence and motivation to keep going at the moment. Your post was just what I needed to read to remind me that it is worth keeping working toward better things. :yesyes:

beautifulfreak77

22-02-13, 12:01

hi flossie...thanks for that info il look into it...its not something i could do everyday (the car journey) i was so tired when i got in gosh it takes it outta you dont it...but there are things i need to do closer to home that upset me more,like my daughter has to go up the hospital every couple of months and i feel like a failure as the hosp is only a mile,i can do that,but her appointments are up on ward 10,thats the bit i cant do...i cant go in the lift so means using the stairs...and then im to far from the entrance so i feel trapped,and if i feel like i cant get out quick enough i start panicking...silly isnt it...but thats me...and i have so many of these little fears that when im out they are all swirling around in my head and its hard to concentrate...thats why the cbt never really helped last time...it was hard enough trying to hold myself together let alone be able to take on board what was being said...i must of looked quite funny tho looking back on it now..
do you have a dog?? iv found it much easier going out alone but with the dog as if i start to feel panicky or odd i talk to the dog yes i may look mad haha but it does help me...also pushes me to go out as she needs to be walked...iv even been stopping and chatting to a few other dog owners lately...which i couldnt of done before...

flossie

22-02-13, 12:29

I totally understand what you are saying about having to go to the hospital and then getting panicky because you feel trapped. I am sure that so many of us recognise that in ourselves. I am bad enough if I pop into a neighbour and they close the front door. Yes it is silly, it is totally irrational, but it is also very real to you. The feelings you experience become overwhelming and out of your control. But, you can learn to control the panic. You can learn the skills to go to the hospital with your daughter and feel more comfortable being there. Don't give up on trying CBT. I closed my mind to any help and just felt unable to take on board any information. I was certain that nothing would work for me. I think that like being on a diet, if your heart isn't really in it then it isn't going to work. You need to want to move forward. The hard part is that each of us is the only one who can take responsibilty for whether we do that moving forward or not. I know that £12 isn't easy for some of us to find at the moment but the rewards it could give you, well, no amount of money could pay for the buzz you get when you conquer a new challenge.
I also know that just the thought of trying something new can be daunting. There honestly isn't anything scarey about calling No Panic. I have had problems using the phone for years, that feeling of being trapped, but it is all easy going, nothing at all to worry about there.
Yes, I have a dog. I have made all my recovery so far because of him. Like you, he is my motivation for going out and my distraction when I need it. I have used trees, lamp posts and waste bins as target points to get to :winks:
Do you practise muscle relaxation or breathing techniques to help you through your panicky moments? It has probably been the most valuable thing I have learned to help when I feel panicky.

beautifulfreak77

22-02-13, 13:01

i do try and do my breathing exercises when out and feeling panicky and i know that i must stay in places longer,as i know eventually it will all die down,i think its just very hard to believe that in the middle of a panic attack...i know now when calm that its just a panic attack,and it cant harm me and so on,but once im out and panicking i cant be so positive i tell myself come on it cant harm you it will soon pass but then i start doubting it,what if this time its not a panic attack,what if its something more serious,i expect everyone with agoraphobia thinks this way and i know it will take time to get over it,i am a little impatient at times...i also find it hard as no one understands,no friends or family they just think im weird...so i have cut myself off from most people,which was also silly of me but i didnt know what else to do..
i will try what you have suggested £12 is nothing if it helps me to feel better..and thanks for listening to me moan...and im glad your dog has helped you too,id be lost without mine,she knows when im down or upset,and starts nudging me and even if im sat there crying my eyes out she makes me smile...thank you for taking the time to write to me :) its much appreciated...

Pinktel

22-02-13, 13:24

beautifulfreak77 i can totally relate to your hospital post - and you are right, whatever paths and reasons made us all the way we are, one thing we have in common is that from the moment we let anxiety become our focus we all will have the same identical thoughts about what will happen to us, are we trapped, are we going to stop breathing, are we going to collapse, is everybody thinking we are weird.... the list goes on...

the no panic website sounds worth checking and also I will recommend again that you look at the cbt4panic.

CBT is proven as THE gold standard in treatment for anxiety and neurosis. We know the brain can be re trained, we know the most effective cognitive (thinking) methods with which to do this and we know the most effective behavioural (practical) methods for doing this.

It is a proven science and your brain is no different to my brain, it will learn the exact same way - just as we learned the anxiety and its crazy behaviours in exactly the same way. The same processes are going on in all of us. We are all reacting and behaving and thinking in the same way.

Therefore, we can all react, behave and think in new ways which will improve our confidence and abilities.

No, it is not easy. If it were, none of us would be on these forums.

It is a methodical, painstaking process. Some days you think the CBT is working, then the next day you try something and fail and feel like an idiot again.

But Rome wasn't built in a day as they say!! and what keeps me going with it is that I look back and i KNOW i am better, I was desperate when i ordered cbt4panic. I have just driven to collect my eldest daughter from somewhere i had my last major panic before ordering cbt4panic. Okay, it was only at a friend's house 7 miles away, but last time I was there my friend had to drive me and my children home, i was painfully embarrassed and thought i was going to stop breathing at any point. Of course I DIDNT stop breathing, as soon as i neared my comfort zone surprise surprise the feelings began to fade. Don't you just love them!!!

Anyway, my point is I did that same journey. No i didn't enjoy it. Yes there were points when I thought i would have to stop. But what I am learning is the ability to say to myself... "I am just scared, that is all", cbt4panic helps you deal with the panic feelings and welcome them almost, you are taught to try and run towards them, sometimes I feel myself just breathing erratically in an exaggerated way as if to say "come on then body... do your worst I will just breathe like a mad woman if that's what you're wanting me to do". :D:D and yes, i get mild symptoms from it, but somehow by challenging it, they never seem to progress to where they used to do.

panicpanda

22-02-13, 15:55

Hello, great thread thankyou Rain, thought I'd add my story.

I've had panic attacks since I was 15, 23 now. Managed through school and college somehow, quit uni as it was too hard with my anxiety. Always had problems with public transport but managed. Since 2011 I've been extremely agoraphobic, practically housebound, after a trip to London. Going there overwhelmed my senses and had panic attack after panic attack, the most severe I'd ever had. The air is horrid there and I simply felt I couldn't breathe. Since that day my everyday anxiety has been hightened.

I rarely go out alone now, if I do it's no more than 100 metres! My biggest achievement since London is going to my local shop alone, it was empty and I've only managed it once. I go for little walks within my comfort zone with my boyfriend and support worker (within half a mile of home). I also have a CPN who takes me for a short drive every fortnight (within a mile and a half of home).

Recently it's all been making me feel very depressed, I feel stuck because I don't feel I'm getting far enough quick enough, I don't feel like I've made progess in a long time. My CPN and I wrote up a plan today, hopefully it will help.

This agoraphobia is very isolating and it's good to know I'm not alone (well, not good, wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy!)

x

Kells81

22-02-13, 16:03

Hiya

People often talk about their CPN helping them etc but I don't have one of those. I had CBT through my gp but that has now finished and I am still almost completely housebound. I haven't been back to my gp since because I'm not sure what else can be done or me. Should I be requesting further help such as a CPN? I really don't know how to move forward from this at the moment.

beautifulfreak77

22-02-13, 16:13

hi pinktel....i have downloaded the cbt4panic this afternoon and so far have read the 1st book,i will read the rest and try my hardest,lets hope this time it sinks in as it didnt before,probably cos i was so panicky..
well done that you managed to do that journey thats really good..i bet you are well happy about that..another thing im not good at is praising myself when i have done something,seems so silly...
hi panicpanda it does take a long time to get over things and i do get very depressed too,all i can say is to keep going out with your boyfriend and support worker and maybe go a little further each time...even if its only a few steps further each time...well done for doing so well up til now..its tough...but there are people her you can talk to...we all know how you feel...take care x

Pinktel

22-02-13, 16:56

Beautifulfreak77 well done for giving things another try. Also watch the corresponding videos Robin does where he talks you through each section of the workbooks, it really brings it to life, you can find them once you have logged in and I think you can download them so you don't have to watch them online.

I was pleased after the event as I very nearly bottled it this morning. Although it was hard and there was a high level of anxiety I stopped short of a full panic, and even if I had panicked I would have had to carry on. That is something I have noticed is finally beginning to happen to me, the panic attacks are further apart because they are becoming less scary to me.

Panic panda doing something you find tricky once a fortnight won't get you anywhere. It is far too infrequent. You have to get good at being okay with panic. It's the same as if I wanted to learn the piano or learn a language, I need to practise practise practise, this is a new skill for you, you want to re train the brain into new ways of thinking and behaving. Practise must be almost daily. Even if that means for two months you walk to the end of you driveway alone. Once that can be done without panic you will have re trained your brain to not fear it. Your confidence will grow and you move on to walking 50 metres down the road etc.

Look at cbt4panic for a start!

beautifulfreak77

23-02-13, 10:16

morning pinktel,i have to give it another go,i aint letting this beat me,its ruined things for to long...so i will read the books and watch the videos and push myself to go out more..yea i know what you mean,i have to walk half a mile to my daughters school and then back and then again in the afternoon,a few months ago i used to dread it but its getting easier,i do still have the odd bad day where i really dont want to or something happens and its that that i feel on edge about but it makes me worse when out,like a couple months ago just before i left for school a car crashed right outside my house,it made me so anxious that the walk to school that morning was horrible,i cried all the way there and back but i spose the good thing is i did it??
i think you did really well and should be pleased with yourself and next time it will hopefully be a bit less scary...maybe i should do the same with the hospital...just go in and wait for anxiety levels to drop then gradually go up to different levels..god i feel sick just thinking about it,but i know its what i need to do...hope you have a good day today :)

bernie1977

23-02-13, 16:44

Hello all, I'm 38 and female.

I've been agoraphobic for approximately 9 years. Sounds weird saying approximately but when I've sat back and thought about it I was avoiding situations long before it became apparent to me.

The last 2 years I have been totally housebound. This has been hell. I also stopped everyone coming to my home as visitors, even family, gave me panic attacks. I only see my partner who I live with and my CMHN and support worker, even though I can't always let them in if I'm really bad.

I haven't seen my own Dad and sister for over a year, which causes me great distress. I put things off with regards to my health.

I did well last month by having the dentist come to do a check up. I was paranoid my gums were receeding due to the dry mouth I get from my meds but it was caused by me over brushing so I can stop it now.

I became housebound by gradually letting the panic attacks make my world smaller and smaller. I get so mad at myself for letting this happen, I should've fought harder to stop this happening as the fight I have to get better is bigger now.

I had a serious physical illness and mental health problems resulting from several unexpected bereavements all happening in a short time frame. I lost my job of 12 years working for a High Street bank. The panic attacks got more frequent and this is when the avoidance kicked in.

I've recently started having small victories with my support worker. Walks to the top of my road and then round the block. We've even managed to go in my local shop!

Then I was told recently she's taking retirement. I was distraught but have come round to the idea that someone else will also be able to help me. I'm worrying I won't be able to cope with a new person and meeting them for the first time but I had those feelings with the other support worker and they went away and she was helping me. I have to keep it in mind that the new one will also be able to help me and not let it make me slip back in my achievements.

Thank you Rain for setting up this thread. It helps to know I'm not the only one. Thanks too to Serentie for the guided meditation link, that's now part of my daily routine.

Pinktel

23-02-13, 17:52

Berne your post made me well up, I could very much relate to not wanting to see relatives, I remember a phase I went through when my eldest was a baby of doing just that (she is 15 now!) and it lasted over a year in varying degrees.
How my husband put up with me I will never know.

Don't beat yourself up saying you should have been stronger. You have merely fallen victim to the most powerful human emotion, designed to create the biggest of punches, fear and anxiety. It's a true monster of a hormone (adrenaline) and the only thing you have done wrong just like everyone on here, is make an honest mistake in associating those feelings with being out of your safe place.

It CAN be improved. You say you are making steps with a support worker which sounds great. Do not underestimate what YOU have done. Ok the support worker may have helped with that extra bit of confidence etc but at the end of the day it was YOU who walked yourself to the local shop etc.

Getting rid of a pattern of fear needs repetition so just keep doing a little walk each day even just 10 steps by yourself out of your door. Repeat that everyday until you are happy to do 20 and so on and so on.

What we have is eminently treatable, it is just a matter of understanding why our bodies react how they do and learning what will happen once we have he grit to ride it out and realise we should not fear panic.

bernie1977

23-02-13, 20:25

Thanks for taking the time to reply Pinktel and your kind words mean a lot.

As I've said before it nice to know that people understand. Until you've experienced what we have no one can ever appreciate how awful ths illness is.

Take care :)

Kayla-Marie

23-02-13, 21:03

hello all i'm 43 and have suffered with agorophobia since 2008 after suffering a severe breakdown in 2007 and losing my baby daughter and dad within 7 weeks of each other in 2008 the last time i went out was to the local shop and i suffered a massive panic attack and that was the downward spiral for me.
i found out i was pregnant again in 2012 and gave birth to my little girl in august 2012 and feel so guilty that i can't take her out and cry every day.
i have 2 grown up sons of 26 and 21 and a caring partner of 20 years but i feel suicidal and frustrated what has become of my life (i used to be a taxi driver before my breakdown so long distance driving was involved) i also suffer with derealisation which i think makes my agorophobia even worse and if i did'nt have that i could probably handle it more.
i have a cpn and was sent a letter asking for me to ring and book a course of CBT but i'm petrified as i have a friend who had it and said they do extreme exposure which scares the lfe out of me....yet i'm determined to beat this for my baby daughters sake.
i have just started a new course of meds paroxetine 20 mg and propanolol twice daily to see if they help as i feel like sxxt at the minute
thanks for reading x

flossie

24-02-13, 08:14

Hi Kayla-Marie. Firstly, I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your daughter and dad. I cannot imagine your grief at losing a child. I had a brother who passed away and I know that although my mum learned to live with her loss it was with her every single day.
A huge congratulations at the birth of your little girl. You have the most precious reason to work toward recovery.
Your daughter has no idea that you are not taking her out. She just accepts her world as it is. This is what you need to do. Accept. Accept that at this point in time you find it difficult to go out. You can cry everyday about it if you like but it will not change it. All it will achieve is to make you more depressed about the situation you find yourself in. Accept that today you find it hard to go out but that your daughter doesn't know and she really doesn't care. What she cares about is having a happy mum. Sometimes you have to say 'stuff the world, I'm looking after myself.' Do not feel guilty about not going out. You just pile the pressure on yourself.
Give the CBT a try. CBT shouldn't be about forcing you into situations that overwhelm you with panic. In fact it should be the complete opposite. CBT teaches you the skills to manage the anxiety when it occurs giving you more confidence to try new situations. With these skills you will then want to very slowly increase your comfort zone.
Be confident in what you want. Do not let the CBT therapist force you into anything that you feel desperately uncomfortable with. They are there to help and support you not increase your anxiety. Do not be afraid to say 'no' but do listen to their reason why they may want you to think about something. CBT is about taking recovery gently and slowly.
You can work through this. I was housebound with agoraphobia for 20 years and am now going out. If I can do it you can too. Have faith in yourself. Just take it little steps at a time and you will get there.

Pinktel

24-02-13, 16:24

Kayla Marie, I just read on another thread that in a few weeks time the CBT4PANIC will be offered for FREE!!! So that is something everybody should definitely get busy downloading... What have you got to lose? It's something you can work at in your own time and at your own pace being fully in control.

Beautifulfreak hope you are having good weekend also, I have mostly pottered getting kids stuff ready for school next week and helping with last minute homework but have been taxi driver to all 3 kids over weekend (only local trips though :blush:) as I find if I let hubby take over the reins totally for more than one day I lose the progress I have made during the week which makes school run Monday morning that bit harder.

Bernie look at the announcements section and there is a bit about the cbt4panic becoming free, it would be another cbt avenue for you, the more you read and educate yourself on the psychology of cbt the better equipped you will feel.

Actually I can't find it in the announcements section but Robin Hall was on this forum saying in another thread that he was going to make it free in a few weeks.

---------- Post added at 16:24 ---------- Previous post was at 14:56 ----------

Actually I have found the announcement now it s on the announcement section in a thread called "thread titles" I think the no more panic website will lose some small revenue it made from endorsing the programme but I think it is wonderful if this programme is made freely available to all, Robin Hall will be helping a great many people with a very very well researched programme that I personally think GPs should start prescribing it. It is a million times better Than my own personal experience of NHS CBT.

beautifulfreak77

24-02-13, 20:45

Evening pinktel.my weekend has been pretty good thanks,i started reading thro the cbt stuff that Robin hall sent me and im feeling pretty positive about it at the moment..
thats good that you have kept it all up,i even walked to the shop a couple of times cos like you if i dont do it it makes monday that little bit worse..weekend seems to off flown by tho..hope everyone has had a good weekend...:)

little wren

25-02-13, 07:43

I personally think GPs should start prescribing it. It is a million times better Than my own personal experience of NHS CBT.

Pinktel - that makes me feel better as I may not get CBT on NHS still waiting to hear. As you have experienced both NHS CBT and Robin Halls 'programme' I am really pleased to hear that. I am still just starting to read the downloads - I need to start in earnest today x

---------- Post added at 07:43 ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 ----------

Just an aside - I have a raging toothache (desperate need of a filling) as other agoraphobics are aware it is not as easy as just phoning up the dentist and going (actually I am not even registered anywhere it has been over 20 years since I went to the dentist:lac:). At present I have fallen backwards and cannot even get out of my street. Has anyone got any ideas of how I should go about this? I am thinking maybe Robins programme may help but how long until you feel it working? x

robinhall

25-02-13, 12:12

Hi Little Wren

To be honest it would be difficult for CBT4PANIC to help you in just a few days with going to the dentist - eventually it will but it will take time and much study and practice.

So, you are left with what to do because it is very important that you get your tooth looked at.

My suggestions for now are..

Consider going to the dentist with someone you feel very safe with.

It may help to tell the dentist that you have severe anxiety - keep in mind that dentists encounter this problem a LOT - many people have anxiety in this area so you are not alone

When finding a dentist ask someone you know if they would recommend their dentist (as being someone who can deal with a patients anxiety)

If you feel TOO scared to go then consider doing it in a more graduated way over several days. Better late than never if you know what I mean.

For instance
1 - at least register with a dentist - do this today (perhaps even arrange an appointment)
2 - If the appointment is a few days away go to the dentist (with someone you feel safe with) and just sit in the waiting room - even if it's only for a few seconds - the key is to change it from the complete unknown to the known - which is always less fearful
3. In the first appointment - tell the dentist that you feel very anxious and that you want the tooth examined but you may not feel up to getting treatment at the same time - tell them that you will phone and make a second appointment

If you find the right dentist they MAY even be prepared to call to your house first to help put your mind at ease. No harm asking.

When you make the appointment - let me know via PM and I will give you a few ideas on how to stay calm during the visit.

Robin

little wren

26-02-13, 07:14

Thanks Robin x

Pinktel

26-02-13, 19:51

Managed to tackle a 5 mile drive to a shop in which I had a MAJOR attack of depersonalisation last time I visited. Was a lot of anticipatory anxiety this morning as I knew what was coming, but used my CBT techniques and acknowledged the anxiety for what it was and challenged it.

Trip was about 100 times easier than I had imagined.

Even spoke to 3 different people in the shop and lingered to make a 5 minute job take 20 mins just to ensure I was really in no way rushing I case I panicked.

The drive back bordered upon leisurely at times :ohmy:

Haven't experienced that feeling for a long time.

Felt very uplifted all in all. :)

robinhall

26-02-13, 20:04

Hi Pinktel

That's fantastic and great to hear that you really understand that you aren't using the skills to avoid the fight or flight. It can be tempting to do so.

You are well on your way to overcoming your panic.

Well done :)

beautifulfreak77

26-02-13, 22:06

hey well done pinktel, :)
thats great,and you should be proud of yourself staying longer than you had to..
keep up the good work :)

Pinktel

27-02-13, 07:01

Thanks beautifulfreak I did have a proud moment (something I am RUBBISH at) which doesn't happen often! How is your week going?

Thanks Robin for your words of encouragement, the penny is finally dropping that I must completely be okay with the panic in order to be free of it. That in itself is hard but what is also dawning on me is how much of the day I spend avoiding, distracting, carrying out safety behaviours and hoping I DON'T panic.

Once you begin to change your thoughts on this it feels VERY strange, you realise truly how much the panic has permeated through every little bit of you and your life because now I am challenging pretty much every behaviour and thought I have!!

This feels a massive adjustment for me because it is a big change and weirdly when I find myself carrying out something fear free I almost have a panic because it is such a forgotten way of being!

little wren

27-02-13, 07:15

Really pleased for you pinktel - well done - that anticipatory anxiety is horrid, the fear of 'what ifs', but you started your 'mission' despite of it and came to challenge it. x :yesyes:

flossie

27-02-13, 08:20

Well done Pinktel on your shopping trip. Keep moving forward with the positive thinking, you are doing great.

Rain

27-02-13, 09:20

sandramick

27-02-13, 12:24

:hugs:to u rain xxxx

u are ill not a useless lump and before you can even think about getting a job u need to get yourself betta .

so much of what you have said i can relate to . my partner works 7 days a week just to keep our heads above water and it makes me feel so bad ,he never complains just gets on with it .

i am semi agrophobic i dont like leaving the house but i make my self do small things . i drive every where park right outside small shops get what i need and come home .

i was working for a friend she knew me well an all my anxietys it was only 4 hours 3 times a week i felt safe there and was ok .
unfortunatley the business has closed .

i have been home for 2 months now and am finding going out harder and harder / yesterday had interview gat so worked up all day nearly turned round half way ther but i went and i did ok !! how i would manage the job if i got it i dont no.

it sounds to me that u have got yourself into a very deep rut i dont want to sound nasty or unsimpathetic but the only way out is too help your self
easiersaid than done i no .

small steps ..stop worrying about the big badworld ...

stand up go to your back door open it an stand there for a minute shut it again and think yes smile and realise this is the start of your recovery

tomorrow put one foot out the door then the next day two feet it may seem stupid to alot of people but it will be massive to u , this is how i started when i wasreallyill a few years ago .

very slowly i got further till one day i went out in the car with partner soo scarey but the only way forward is to fight .

as i said i am now at the point i can get out to safe places and am hoping to find a safe job.
it so tiring an frustrating but please dont give up.

sorry if i gone on just sometimes i just want us all to get well

sandra xx

Rain

27-02-13, 12:32

Thanks for your reply, Sandra and well done for going to that interview! :yesyes:
I do leave the house sometimes. I go to the dentist a couple of times a year with my partner. This is very hard but the fear of losing my teeth is stronger than the fear of going there. I can also walk up the lane a little way with my partner and the dogs as long as we go first thing in the morning. Lately we have been driving a 20 mile round trip to the local garage every Sunday to get the papers. I get very scared waiting in the car while my partner is in the shop but I do manage.

Alone, I'm afraid I don't do anything. I go round to the side of the house to collect our letters from the mailbox once a day. This is done with a fast beating heart and swift feet that scurry back inside at top speed.

I want to work on sitting out in the garden alone when the spring comes. I have done it before but always race indoors if a car comes along. I'm so scared that someone will try to interact with me and I won't cope.

sandramick

27-02-13, 12:47

wow the dentist !! i havent done that in 20 years.
brill that u do get out a little now u need to try a little harder by yourself even very small things start to give u a sence of achievement and as that builds so will your confidence making u stronger .
do it now go on get a piece of bread go in the garden an feed the birds stay just as long as u can . u will be scared but the relief when u get over it will be worth it i promise :winks:.
sandra xx

little wren

27-02-13, 12:56

Rain - I just had to respond to your post...I could have written it myself.

My hubby (partner for over a decade) works and so I cannot claim benefits either. He also used to travel over 50 miles (one way just to get to work) for years. I always say we've lived our vows without even being married 'for richer for poorer - in sickness and in health'.

As for the world changing whilst behind closed doors -yes it certainly does. Rain - you have got things to say of interest. You will still have opinions about the news or clothes or the garden or whatever grabs an interest for you.

Have you thought of asking for a new support worker to take those small steps again - eight years is a long time - perhaps you would be eligible for support. If you managed to get out before (however small) then you can do it again with support Rain. x

I'm glad writing (typing!) it out helped - I bet a lot of people on this site can relate. :flowers:

Rain

27-02-13, 13:12

Thanks for responding, Wren. I agree, 8 years is a long time since my last CBT. Incidentally, I have also had psychotherapy and hypnotherapy, but again, many years ago. I had to pay for those two treatments but my CBT was free. When I had my CBT, the lady, (who couldn’t have been nicer) said she had ‘taken me as far as she could’ and the rest was up to me- to practise by myself. Our final trip out together was to Tescos. I have been told before by people that my inner panic and turmoil doesn’t show so I probably looked like I was doing fine.

If I can make an analogy with weight loss… I feel I need a whole new way of eating rather than a diet. In other words, I’m not sure I really benefit from little trips out. I believe I need to have a new lifestyle that involves being out and around people all the time. I am alone for more than 10 hours every day and live in the middle of nowhere. I don’t drive anymore but we only have one old banger of a car and my partner has that at work. The only thing open to me would be to go for a walk round the lanes here by myself, which I am too scared to do at the moment.

I feel like those who make progress and become cured of agoraphobia are somehow less abnormal than me. My situation reminds me of that Smiths song that goes ‘And if you want to live, how do you start, where do you go; who do you need to know’! I’m not sure I’m explaining it very well but I feel if trips out were part of normal life they’d work better than going out purely to overcome my agoraphobia.

Pinktel

27-02-13, 16:02

Rain did you say you had a dog? Or have you got a neighbour with a dog?? :D:D because lots of us find that a good way to start getting out, the feeling you need to do it because the dog wants a walk is good because it gives you that incentive.

Are you CBT4Panic registered? You sound to me like you would take it really seriously and put in the work required. I know walking the lanes is boring and not exactly what "normal" people spend their time doing but if you are not happy doing that currently then its a good place to start.

Agoraphobia sucks, but it CAN be overcome, it really can, how about trying the walking around outside your house first and your goal is to manage without fear of panicking, get the CBT in place and that's your first mission, being able to walk around outside your house without the pounding heart etc, you could practise that multiple times a day, what do you think?

Rain

27-02-13, 16:37

I have two big dogs but they both pull on the lead like crazy and don’t like to be separated so I couldn’t actually take them on my own. I did buy the CBT4Panic course a year ago but I wasn’t as diligent as you at putting it into practise. I printed out the pages that I found especially helpful and read them as much as I could and tried to commit as much of it to memory as possible. For example, I remember the cartoon of the man ignoring the chair and the speech bubble saying ‘No safety behaviours’! I did go out a few times with my partner without my ‘props’- a walking stick, a hat and a bottle of water (gosh, I sound like I’m on ‘Dancing on Ice’!)

Anyway, I didn’t keep it up for long enough, so I need to dig it all out again and get working on it. Thanks for the encouragement, Pinktel. Today has shown me that miracles can happen. We were in such a panic about how to pay the mortgage at the end of this week. My partner just phoned me to say someone who owed us money from two and a half years ago – money we had written off – turned up this afternoon and paid up. I never thought that would happen so maybe it was the universe’s way of showing me that the unexpected is still possible. For instance, me getting better at going out!

Pinktel

27-02-13, 18:10

Yes Rain - that is a sign - you never know what is around the corner and nobody can predict what is going to happen tomorrow for anybody!

Get digging girl and pull out that CBT4panic - did you watch all of Robin's accompanying videos online? Have you still got your login details? if not why not pm Robin and tell him you are a client from last year and have forgotten login details etc - he can either retrieve your passwords etc or give you new ones.

I find watching the video tutorials so much better than just reading the workbooks alone. They clarify it to me so much more.

I KNOW it is hard to be diligent, the constant filling of analysis sheets, working out fear hierarchies, but it DOES work, you can't expect to just be told about fight and flight and then just sail off into the sunset anxiety free. Just as I couldn't sit you down and explain to you how to play the piano from a book and then expect you to give a recital! Our bodies and minds need physical practise to show us the way, show us that we can indeed have lots of fabulous panic attacks and they mean bugger all!

You CAN do this Rain, with or without your big dogs!! :D my dog is a nightmare on the lead, but perhaps you could do some heel work training! You could all learn some new skills!! Stranger things have happened :)

---------- Post added at 18:10 ---------- Previous post was at 18:06 ----------

And by the way, my fear hierarchies (things I am scared of doing in order of scariness) are several pages long because anxiety has been a constant in my life for over 20 years.

I have only worked on the first 2 or 3 on my list so far :blush::blush: but who cares!! I am 40 this year and I am buggered if I'm going to be sitting here in another 20 years making more excuses to myself as to why I haven't faced down the panic.

God only knows how I face my biggest demons (flying and driving alone on motorway) but for now i focus on driving locally, attending appointments, school runs and shopping. The rest will come.

Kells81

27-02-13, 18:12

I love your attitude pinktel :flowers:

little wren

28-02-13, 06:53

... I’m not sure I really benefit from little trips out. I believe I need to have a new lifestyle that involves being out and around people all the time. I am alone for more than 10 hours every day and live in the middle of nowhere. I don’t drive anymore but we only have one old banger of a car and my partner has that at work. The only thing open to me would be to go for a walk round the lanes here by myself, which I am too scared to do at the moment...

... I feel if trips out were part of normal life they’d work better than going out purely to overcome my agoraphobia.

Rain I can actually empathize a lot with what you say. Little trips are positive (they get you out in the world and used to the outdoors again), but as a long-term strategy I believe there needs to be more. I personally think having a relevant destination point is important and that destination should include being around other people so when the support worker has gone you still have contact with people.

One of the things I wanted to do was voluntary work (so I would have a reason to get up and go out and I would be around people). Is your partner off work weekends? I know it will take time away from spending it together, but what about something like a Saturday morning voluntary position to aim for (with your support workers help - I would deffo ask about seeing if you are eligible). Your partner could then drive you and you will know he is available should you not feel well. It's just a suggestion but it could be worth thinking about. This could be something to eventually work up to - we all need hope.

little wren x

Alabasterlyn

28-02-13, 10:20

I have been thinking this morning about the repercussions of my agoraphobia. I have had agoraphobia for 12 years and haven’t worked in all that time. As a result, we survive on my partner’s wage alone. I am not entitled to any benefits because it is means tested here in Ireland, and if your partner works, you don’t get anything.

Because of the recession, which is especially bad in this country, my partner hasn’t had a pay rise in over 5 years. We just sit helplessly by as taxes, prices, and utility bills go up and up. When I was a young teenager, imagining my life as an adult, it never occurred to me that I would be cold on a daily basis because we couldn’t afford heating. But this is our reality. I can’t imagine what it must be like for my partner, driving a 50 mile round trip to work every day and working so hard just to end up existing rather than living.

Our situation is all down to me. Two people subsisting on one wage. One carrying the other. If I could just earn the minimum wage we would be fine, because we have learned to live on next to nothing.

Agoraphobia and social anxiety have made me feel like a useless lump. I have had it so long that I now feel like a woman from another century or even another planet. The last time I was in a shop was 2005. That was with my CBT lady. I haven’t even any idea what colour the various euro notes are any more as I never handle money. How does one get out of a hole like that? Can you imagine how surreal I would feel if I made it into a shop after nearly 8 years? How would I even attempt to act normally when the proximity of just one person is alarming? How do you adjust to real life when you’ve been hiding for over a decade?

It all comes down to one thing. I don’t have life skills. I have no idea how cash machines work these days or self scanners in supermarkets because these things were all different when I was ‘out in the world.’ I haven’t driven a car since 1996 and my last bus trip was in 1992. I fear I have become too bogged down in a weird lifestyle that excludes everyone else, except my partner.

Having friends is a dream I no longer believe in, because how can I have anything interesting to say when I am not really living? I feel very guilty to have been given this gift of life and health when I am just not living a normal life. The thing I would love most in this world would be to get a job. Any kind of poxy job that would enable me to redress the imbalance of my partner having supported me all these years. Bringing home a wage would make me feel human again. But it’s hard enough for well adjusted people to find work, never mind someone like me.

All of this is the result of my agoraphobia and social anxiety. Normally I manage to remain cheerful but today is not one of those days. It has helped just to get it off my chest this morning.

Reading your post I can definitely relate to so much of what you are going through. I spent 7yrs hardly leaving the house and like you had no idea of new technology when I did gradually start to push my boundaries. I still haven't got around to going on a bus and the last time I did go on one was back in 1976!

What I have managed to do in the last few years is just start to do what I call simple things like going with my partner to walk the dogs. I can go into the local shops and get a paper etc but I have to be having a very good day to be able to do that on my own. Even then I stand there counting the money a few times before I hand it over as that's about the only time I handle any cash!

On a Saturday morning we have got into a routine of getting up early and going to our local Tesco Extra. When I started doing that last year I could only just get into the bits close to the door and even then I would put my sunglasses on as it's so bright in there. Now I can get around the whole store with no sunglasses, although I do keep them in my bag just in case. I have managed after many efforts to get used to the self service checkout, although I still manage most weeks to mess up something and have to get an asst to come and sort something out. But you know I think most 'normal' people find those checkouts a bit of a pain to use so now I don't care what anyone thinks.

Like you I am also stuck at home all day while my OH is out at work. From just after 8am to 5.15pm I am indoors and the only person who comes round is my mum and that's usually just once a week, usually less and although I still have a few friends they all work.

You really can do all these things you think are going to be beyond you. Is it possible for your husband to try and take you to a supermarket when it's really quiet and just take a few steps inside to see how you feel? Maybe we should all start to think of a small goal and help each other to work towards that.

Rain

28-02-13, 11:44

Thanks for the replies folks. Just knowing you guys are behind me, rooting for me, is so encouraging. I'm going to redouble my efforst this weekend to push myself. :)

sandramick

28-02-13, 11:57

the lovely thing about this site is that u realise u are not alone :Di have just been offered the job that i went for :yesyes:
i am so scared it rediculous i start mothers day so have 2 weeks to get myself into a right state !!
i still can not do supermarkets or walk through the town how on earth i going to work i dont no .... but i no in my heart that i have to do it
as wren says being around people is the way forward
pinkel like u i have the spent too many years letting these feelings rule my life i am 44 now it has to stop .
i think the idea of setting small goals an helping each other is brill .
good luck all
sandra xx

Rain

28-02-13, 12:03

Huge Congratulations Sandra! :yesyes: Well Done!

Pinktel

28-02-13, 12:28

what great news Sandra - that's a confidence booster right there! :D One way or another you will cope with it, there are so many applicants for every job at the moment you must have really impressed them :)

Setting small goals, first steps, that is the ONLY way to go in my opinion. Because there is a massive cycle of lost confidence that works in exactly the same way as the cycle of fear. You fail at completing a task, your confidence gets knocked, you feel rubbish, you don't feel up to completing the next task, you fail at completing the next task, you feel more rubbish etc etc etc...

fishman65

28-02-13, 17:10

Congratulations Sandra that's brilliant :)

Pinktel

01-03-13, 04:49

Something just occurred to me as I am lying here unable to sleep at 4.30 am :mad: (horrid head cold), and apologies is its blindingly obvious to some of you, but here is something I realise is becoming an important tool for me in battling agoraphobic feelings...

The old chestnut "don't think of a white bear" then of course everyone cant help but think of a white bear. I think that has a name, where the brain hates dealing with being told NOT to do something.

For me it's the same when I go out and say to myself "don't panic". I used to put so much effort and thought into NOT panicking at any cost (because obviously it is SO horrid) that actually it makes it 100 times worse.

cBT is giving myself permission to panic and psychologically that is such a help to me. It doesn't necessarily change my symptoms when I do panic, but they are becoming more infrequent and less prolonged due tO CBT allowing me to practise panic on my terms. In a weird way I almost feel at times I am beginning to take ownership of the panic, having the attacks under my terms more.

Just that small psychological freedom of changing my attitude and saying to myself "I CAN panic" takes an enormous pressure away from myself and my brain.

This for me is another way of breaking my agoraphobia into crumbs! :D that is my birds and bread analogy :D if I wanted a sparrow to eat a loaf of bread I wouldn't just chuck him a whole unsliced loaf and tell him to get on with it, I break it into crumbs and feed it bit by bit. That is how I am tackling my agoraphobic feelings. Breaking them down into manageable chunks.

Hope my early morning rumblings are making sense, that's enough thinking, will try to get a bit more sleep before school run :D hope everyone else is sleeping soundly :)

little wren

01-03-13, 07:50

So pleased for your sandra :D well done x

---------- Post added at 07:50 ---------- Previous post was at 07:44 ----------

Pinktel - yes it is like being told not to think of the pink elephant in the room and low and behold what do you think about lol! I am still on my reading. One of the interesting things was 'go towards your anxiety' a bit like the elephant/bear thing - fighting tooth and nail to get away from anxiety makes it worse - prolongs it. I guess by trying so hard to get away from anxiety all we do is focus even more on it. x

Alabasterlyn

01-03-13, 12:12

Congrats on the job Sandra, hope it goes well for you :hugs:

sandramick

01-03-13, 13:14

thanks all:flowers:
i have just made myself drive into town and walk down the high street even managed two shops !!
so chuffed with myself
i can do this :scared15:
if i can u all can too :yesyes:

just quick question do any of u ladys find your hormones make u worse ?
i am on my good week so hoping i can keep things going when they kick back in again .
sandra xx

Pinktel

01-03-13, 13:58

nice one sandra! just don't start spending your earnings before you've got them :D

flossie

01-03-13, 19:15

:yesyes:Congratulations Sandra.
Hormones have played havoc with my anxiety over the years.

beautifulfreak77

01-03-13, 19:59

yes hormones i hate them....and congratulations on the job..and well done for going into town :)

little wren

02-03-13, 07:31

Pinktel

02-03-13, 07:51

Right, here are my tips :D

Firstly check those mental images of not being able to rush home, that is your anticipatory anxiety right there :D challenge it with your CBT as you know there will be no real valid reason why you suddenly have to be home and one way or another you WILL get home, you always have done and always will.

Secondly you won't be going far, plan your route even if it is just 5 minutes.

Work out on your analysis sheet what your absolute concern is about being stuck outside with the panic, boil it down to its most fundamental concern,( ie for me it's basically I am now going to stop breathing,then die or go mad and be committed to an asylum! ).

Then pick some tasty treats like bits of sausage or cheese or something, stuff some in your pocket and I guarantee there will be no sniffs on your stroll that are more interesting than your treats and if you need help persuading him to walk where you want the food will do the trick.

Good luck you can do it, remember to keep the task realistic and achievable :)

little wren

02-03-13, 08:00

Pinktel - thanks -but I'm wondering one point - I know you've followed CBT I am still reading Robins lit. but he says 'go towards the panic' not away from it. So when/if the panic comes am I supposed to just stand there and let it come (my fear is I will lose control and run out into the road taking puppy with me). How are you getting on Pinktel? you always take time to help everyone else out. x

Alabasterlyn

02-03-13, 08:48

Has anyone been out and about with their dog? Mine is a pup and I'm scared he will just sit down and not 'shift his butt' :unsure:when I need to get home. He's too big to pick up. He also pulls on the lead - any tips?

Yes we go out and about with our dogs. We have one old dog who gets tired out half way on her walk and a nearly 11mth old puppy. When we got the puppy she hadn't been leash trained and as soon as she had the lead on her she would just sit down and refuse to move! What we were told to do by the teacher at dog training was to put her lead on when she is in the house and just let her walk around with it to get used to it which did help. You could maybe take some treats with you if your pup decides he doesn't want to move and then praise him when he does walk properly. With the pulling on the lead we were told to stop and walk back a few paces so that the dog realises the more they pull the harder it is for them to get anywhere.

Pinktel

02-03-13, 08:55

Little wren, boil your fear down more, what happens when you lose control and run into the road? Do you get run over? Do you collapse and die..... Tell me what happens next you aren't getting to the underlying fear yet... What does "losing control" mean to you...

flossie

02-03-13, 11:49

[QUOTE=little wren;1127565]Pinktel - thanks -but I'm wondering one point - I know you've followed CBT I am still reading Robins lit. but he says 'go towards the panic' not away from it. So when/if the panic comes am I supposed to just stand there and let it come (my fear is I will lose control and run out into the road taking puppy with me). How are you getting on Pinktel? you always take time to help everyone else out. x[/QUOT

You won't run into the road. You won't run anywhere. You are a very rational person who can make decisions even when experiencing high anxiety. The very worst that would happen is that you will turn round and walk back toward your front door. That is all.
The more you take pup out the more confident you will become about trusting yourself.
Taking my pup out was how I started. Your attention will be more focused on him than yourself. Don't forget that they only need little walks themselves to start with, it is a big world full of smells and noises they have to get used to, so it is an ideal time to get used to it together. If pup sits down then become the most interesting thing in the world. Jump up and down, calling him and making silly noises if that is what it takes. You will work out what holds his attention as you go along. Walk up and down the road in front of your house to start with if you want. You are in charge to do as much or as little as you choose.
Walk with a straight back and your head held high. Pretend that you are the most confident person in the world. If we can convince ourselves so easily that we are unable to go out then the reverse also is true.
Enjoy going out and showing your puppy off to the world.

little wren

03-03-13, 08:58

Flossie Yes I think I will distance myself from the thoughts (observe them instead of engaging with them and giving them importance). It is the 'what if' scenario. I hope pup will help me get out and about too.

Pinktel I don't think Ive really understood that part of the lit. yet. I suppose I should really pm Robin - try and make sure Ive got it. I don't think Ive understood why getting to the underlying fear would help.

Lyn - he is going to be a big boy when grown and stopping lead pulling is crucial if I will ever feel confident walking him. I think combining lead training (focus away from anxiety) and going out. Eating is one of his favourite hobbies and yes treats are always taken whenever he goes out even with hubby. x

The lit says make sure you've understood before taking gradual exposure - but I am looking at tomorrow early morning. My hubby is coming out of hospital tonight we think and I will only ever venture out even to the bins if he is available to me even by phone. The pup has been trapped in the house with me whilst hubby in hoppy (6 days now) and he needs to go out. x If Ive got it right then Ive got it right if not then tough!

flossie

03-03-13, 09:26

Pinktel

03-03-13, 09:35

Little wren getting to the underlying fear is part of it as this is what you are subconsciously or consciously scared will happen, your anticipatory anxiety will work constantly to reinforce to you that this supposed fear will happen and that is why we avoid and carry out safety behaviours to protect ourselves and keep us safe.
As part of the re training we must identify our absolute basic fears because you then need to examine the reasons why we think this may happen and also consider rational real reasons why we think it may not happen. You can write this all down as a powerful reinforcing tool. Then after the event you write up what actually happened, the fact that your feared consequences did NOT happen, and that it was the anxiety making you think it would happen that is all.

So here would be one of my examples...

Situation... I got scared to driving my kids to school and walking them in.

What was I scared would happen... (really boil this down don't just say well I am scared I will panic infront of people, play it out to the actual basic fear, this would usually be death, being committed to a mental hospital cos you have gone mad etc)... So for me in this situation it may be.. I will be unable to breathe and so will die or my heart will start up a fatal arrthymia and I will die (see how I have taken what symptoms affect me most in a panic attack ie shortness of breath and palpitations and carried them through to what the worst they could do to me are, not enough to just say I am scared of having palpitations, it needs to be what those palpitations will DO to me)

Now I would take both those fears, stopping breathing and fatal heart arrhythmia and for each one I will list the reasons I think this is true. So for example for stopping breathing I would say, my chest feels tight, I can't take a deep satisfying breath, I feel dizzy etc

Next you list all the reasons why you will NOT stop breathing in a panic attack. So I would say, my GP has told me NOBODY just stops breathing ever in a panic, my chest feels tight because this is a muscular reaction from anxiety, I have never stopped breathing before from the thousands of panics over the years etc

Then the crucial conclusions can be drawn and written down, ie, that despite feeling that I was unable to breathe, all the symptoms were being caused by anxiety, and so I was never in danger of stopping breathing.

The practise and repetition of this begins to erode your cognitions, which is so important as this is how you will change your thinking. It feels a bit boring, you think oh well I know all this now I don't need to write it all up and fill in the sheets but it is a very important structured path that works on your cognitions. This is the way to practise new thoughts.

This is how you can tackle your own thoughts and over turn them.

Keep your first trip small, like you say just out in the garden, keep near your house, prepare yourself don't do it before you are ready. Have you begun to de sensitise yourself to the feared symptoms you have? Robin has a great section on this which saw me breathing through a straw to mimic my feared symptom of how I feel when I am anxious :D to start with I could only do it for 10 seconds :blush: my kids thought it was hilarious and all wanted to do it. I think that was a powerful moment for me as I began to laugh at the stupid feelings I give myself :D

Preparation is the key on this and the great thing we probably all have in common is that we are great at preparation, as being agoraphobic we leave nothing to chance, we don't fly by the seat of our pants, we think through every scenario a thousand times, that is why you will be GREAT at preparing yourself for your little trips and great at analysing everything afterwards and DISPROVING your own thoughts xx

little wren

03-03-13, 10:54

little wren. What are you frightened will happen to you if you go out alone, even to the bins? Can you explain it to us. It doesn't matter how silly it might feel to express it, we all have our thoughts that are equally daft. Just seeing it written down may take some of the fear away for you and maybe between us we can break it down into something less threatening for you to manage.

Thank you so much flossie for helping me to 'hear' myself. Hearing it come back to me has shown me my thoughts became caught up in the 'i can't do it' mentality. The fear of going to bins (my bins are actually set away from the house and garden) stemmed from a very real threat a year ago but I needed to remind myself that threat no longer exists. Ive been to the bins - no probs whatsoever - I just need to keep reminding myself to just do it! :doh:

flossie

03-03-13, 11:19

I find that sometimes just realising how absurd my fears are in reality and laughing at them can help. They are still there but it lessens the importance I have placed on them.

fishman65

03-03-13, 19:54

I'm reading some excellent analysis in this thread,your post back there was quite brilliant Flossie.And as I was reading I was thinking 'yep that's me'.Isn't it incredible how similar we all are.

One thing to remember is that anxiety is a liar.It tells us 'going outside is going to be a nightmare,you're going to be a total mess'.But 9 times out of 10,its not as bad as the anxiety said it would be,and we find ourselves feeling much better than anticipated.I was like that this morning while pruning shrubs in my back garden.I was thinking 'oh no,what if Sarah (my neighbour) is out in her garden too and wants to talk?'

But when I was out there,she wasn't anywhere to be seen and because I felt ok,I was disappointed!! How crazy is that??

flossie

03-03-13, 20:51

If your neighbour does come out into her garden and stops to chat just go with the flow. Use her as practise for when the time comes to meeting someone another time. Practise practise practise. You will find some days are easier than others but don't be put off if you have a fidgety experience. You can stop the conversation at any time. I cannot tell you the number of times I have used the 'I must go, I need to spend a penny' line. After all, Sarah will do the same when she needs to move on. We are not obliged to wait until the other person decides it is time to go. We can take charge too.
If Sarah is nice and someone you can trust then just be open with her. We all have our own wishes whether or not to tell our friends but I don't hide my anxiety issues. Mine accept that sometimes I can't stand still or stop to talk for long so if I disappear it isn't interpreted as me being offhand, it's just part of my character.
Our anxiety is a liar but it is also a bully. Treat that bully with the contempt it deserves.

little wren

04-03-13, 07:07

Pinktel - thanks. I think as I am just starting the literature it will probs take me a bit of time to actually really understand it. Yes, small steps - hope you are getting on well with the CBT - let us know how it is working for you. It is nice to hear positive stories - little wren :)x

bernie1977

04-03-13, 11:58

If any of my fellow agoraphobics are logged I need yor help and advice please.

I was assigned a support worker by my CPN last year. She's a lovely lady and managed to get me out of the house! I've managed to build up to a 5-10 minute walk where I live. I can in my local shop when it's not busy. I'm also managing to take myself for drives in the local area, which I enjoy as long as I don't encounter any queues!

the support worker has been a great help in my achievements. I feel comfortable with her, as one of my main fears is embarrassment in front of others this helps a great deal. I was told recently she's retiring, I was distraught. I had a choice of two other support workers, one male one female. My CPN advised me to go with the male as the female was near retirement age and she didn't want me to be in the same situation again with someone leaving.

I was distraught about my current SW leaving as I have trust in her and terrified of having to meet someone new. I have trouble meeting new people. The CPN and SW are the only people I have in my home as other people cause me to have panic attacks, even my own family. Time has passed since I was told and I'm to meet the new SW with my CPN tomorrow at my home. I'm terrified I'll have a panic attack in front of him and I won't be able to stay calm so I'll have to ask them to leave. This happened a couple of times when I was first assigned help, I couldn't cope with them in my house as I have to be alone when having a panic attack as I don't want to be ill in front of anyone.

My stomach is on fast spin and I hardly slept last night so I can't imagine what I'll be like tomorrow when the visit is due.

The negative voice in my head is telling me to ring up and cancel, but that won't achieve anything so I won't. I want to get better and the support worker can help me to get better but I'm so scared.

Any advice would be much appreciated as i need someone to talk some sense into me!

sandramick

04-03-13, 13:15

ah bernie i feel for u :hugs:
i too hate change . if everything stays the same an i feel safe i can cope ,anything new and different and i go to pieces .

u have been doing really well going for small walks and quiet shops well done :yesyes:

its a rel shame that u are loosing the support worker who u trust but u have to stay possitive your new support worker might be even nicer they have lots of experiance so wont worry at all if you panic they will understand thats what they there for .

try not to get too worked up "pot kettle black comes to mind "lol
dont cancel give it a go

good luck hope all goes well for u tomorrow

sandra xx

bernie1977

04-03-13, 13:22

Thank you Sandra.

It's hard to put into practice what we tell others isn't it??!! It's all about common sense really. I'm sure the support worker has seen people have panic attacks a thousand times, he may even of had one himself. If I have one in front of him so what. Then that voice that I hate says you might be sick in front of him, faint in front of him. I then tell that voice this has never happened before and that voice says there's a first time for everything. It's crazy!

Pinktel

04-03-13, 13:29

Bernie, it's a horrid time for you and you won't want to hear my advice but I'm going to say it anyhow :D:D:winks:

Until you get past your fear of panic attacks infront of others you can't expect to move on, you will continue to live in terror moving from one thing to the next, never relaxed, never confident, never truly enjoying any little trip out. Because the threat of having a panic infront of others will never be removed unless you live as a hermit in the outer Hebrides. It will lurk in the back of your mind always.

I know because I speak from experience.

The most powerful thing you could do is allow yourself to lose it infront of your helpers or family or friends. And I know that is the thing we just cannot imagine doing, it would almost be like a death for us. And in a way it is, it would signal the beginning of the death of your panic and anxiety. You would be chipping away at the hold it has on you. You would be doing the one thing your panic instructs you NEVER to do at all costs, ie, panic infront of others.

It took me 20 years to admit to others and have the odd panic infront of people. I am not suggesting go into Sainsburys and flail around on the floor by the check out screaming and struggling to breathe, but at least to start with in your own home, could you not be really really really brave and take a leap of faith on it and see what happens when you panic infront of a carer..... Bet you would be surprised at their response. If they are worth their salt they will remain calm and just leave you to do what you have to do. Once the adrenaline has left your system you will feel very proud of yourself and they will have a clearer vision of your needs :)

bernie1977

04-03-13, 13:44

Hi Pinktel thanks for your reply. I understand and agree 100% with what you say.

I've had numerous panic attacks in front of my current support worker and CPN. As I got used to their visits I didn't worry about having attacks in front of them as I felt comfortable with them, so of course the panic attacks stopped. It's more than likely I'll have one tomorrow in front of the new support worker but I'm sure I'll get used to him and the panic will subside.

It really all is about common sense but I feel like my mind is split in two. One side is rational and trying to talk sense then I have the panic side which attacks everything the rational side says.

Talking like we are doing now I'm not feeling any fear but I know I'll wake up in state tomorrow and want to cancel. I know I'm wrong to predict this will happen as its like I'm going to make it happen by thinking ths way. I need to learn to ignore the negative thought part for my brain.

Thank you for replying Pinktel it's great to hear about people who having success with recovery as it gives me hope and makes me see it's possible if you put the work in.

Pinktel

04-03-13, 13:55

sounds to me like you're doing a lot of the work without realising... you have learned to appreciate the anticipatory anxiety already for what it is, you are already catching yourself thinking negatively ahead and predicting failure - each time you can find yourself doing that you can now apply techniques to change your attitude as much as you can in preparation for the event. Acknowledge that it is the anxiety making you think that way and allow that thought to sit in your head, appreciating it for what it is, just a thought, just a feeling, just anxiety making you think it will go badly. That is a powerful way for you to dispel the thoughts as having real meaning. It is the start of your journey into changing your cognitions.

If you do panic infront of the new person, then all well and good, you are another step closer to being totally comfortable with them, and once you are totally comfortable with them you can continue your journey to being unconcerned about having a panic attack.

Don't get me wrong, i don't think ANY of this is easy to do. I am far from cured, but I am 100 times better than where I was last year.

Admitting the panic to friends and family goes a long way to helping for me. It was painful to do, I almost felt at times I was infact just losing my sanity, it was like the death of my old persona actually... now I am busily trying to build a new me - yes I know that sounds dramatic and clearly there's lots of the 'old' me still in here, but leaving behind all the behaviours, thoughts, habits, actions that were hand in hand with my panic for 20 odd years, means I am beginning to feel a different person. I would like to think an 'improved' version, but my family may disagree :D

bernie1977

04-03-13, 14:04

Good for you, by reading what you post I can see you've the got the thought process worked out. That is something I'm still working on but I can see I've made improvement as I never used to try and rationalise my thoughts. I've got a book on CBT that I was using but Robin Hall has just sent me a link to his programme so I'm going to give that a whirl.

I want a new me too, it's not dramatic it makes sense. The new me is going to be a lot tougher!

20 years is a long time for you to suffer so say goodbye to it and begin again. Good luck!

bernie1977

05-03-13, 15:37

I DID IT!! I let the new support worker come and visit me today. I was in a state this morning, cried myself out then began to feel calmer as I'd got rid of a lot of tension.

Kept myself busy and tried not to clock watch. Filled in a worksheet from Robins programme, could've done with a full A4 pad to write down all my anticipatory anxiety thoughts!

The support worker came with my CPN and he seemed very calm and relaxed which helped me a great deal.

Thanks for your support guys it's much appreciated as I really needed the help you gave me the other day xx

flossie

05-03-13, 17:16

I DID IT!! I let the new support worker come and visit me today.
:yesyes: Well done. That's a huge achievement and another step toward recovery. Be very proud of yourself. Keep up the good work and the positive thinking.

fishman65

05-03-13, 17:37

That's fantastic Bernie!! Give yourself a huge pat on the back,be proud :yesyes:

bernie1977

05-03-13, 17:49

Thank you Flossie & Fishman I'm still on a high from earlier!

Torri

05-03-13, 19:11

Loved reading everyones stories, here i have suffered with a mild form of agrophobia for about 2 years, i will only walk with someone, or go somewhere in the car so i no i can escape whenever i want, i do have really bad weeks and some really good where i feel good and postitive, but i always get knock backs, such has at my sons football match, i can't wait for it to end and im feeling dizzy and panicy....i can not remember the last time i walked to town, library etc by my self, i still go to work but i will cycle as i don't want to walk as i feel lightheaded

little wren

06-03-13, 06:58

Well done bernie really pleased for you :)

Hi Torri - It is surprising how many people on this site suffer agoraphobia - until Rain started this thread I had no idea. Seeing how others cope with it, or just their experiences, or people being able to voice their present worries and have support seems helpful.

sandramick

06-03-13, 11:09

so pleased for u bernie :yesyes:
sandra xx

Pinktel

06-03-13, 13:02

nice one bernie :)

use that scenario to reinforce in your thinking how the anticipatory anxiety made you die a thousand deaths, and then examine how the meeting went and how none of the feared consequences actually happened - yes you may have been anxious infront of them but it did not lead to you losing the plot, becoming sectioned or dying infront of them! That's cognitive therapy right there :D

Exactly those methods are going to change your thinking in the same way with regards taking some little trips out.

The little trips out will form the behavioural part of your Cognitive Behavioural therapy and learning to meet the panic, allow it to exist inside you, that will begin to alter your behaviours with the panic.

Just a little update on how I am getting on - driving pretty much happily now up to 10 miles from home (couldn't sit in a car last year without having a melt down!) have watched 3 school plays - albeit i said to myself I would only watch parts at a time as it is more important to me to break it down into manageable chunks still.

The confidence you gain from just small tasks is the key. For me there is no point rushing in and flooding myself. I am on a steady if slow improvement and that is the best way for me. In december I could not drive into my local town (3 miles) and get out of the car. Now I am able to get there, walk around a few shops and come home.

bernie1977

06-03-13, 13:58

Congratulations & well done Pinktel!

Sounds like you're coming along in leaps and bounds. Others peoples success helps to spur us all on.

I made full and detailed notes of how I felt yesterday so it's something for me to read back on when I'm feeling anxious about the next visit. I got through the visit fine and therefore I can do it again.

flossie

06-03-13, 15:27

Well done Pinktel, especially going to the school plays. I think that's a great achievement.
All these little steps gradually build up to bigger things don't they.

Pinktel

06-03-13, 17:00

Thanks guys, small steps are working for me.

Flossie, replied to you on other thread that cbt4panic now free, message robin hall and I think he is offering the programme free to those who wouldn't have afforded it otherwise and I think he is launching a new site shortly anyway where it will automatically be free, I think that is his aim, check it out, you have nothing to lose :)

flossie

06-03-13, 17:31

Thanks Pinktel. I would feel uncomfortable contacting Robin. I'll wait to see what he offers for free later.

little wren

07-03-13, 09:32

nice one bernie :)

The little trips out will form the behavioural part of your Cognitive Behavioural therapy and learning to meet the panic, allow it to exist inside you, that will begin to alter your behaviours with the panic.

Just a little update on how I am getting on - driving pretty much happily now up to 10 miles from home (couldn't sit in a car last year without having a melt down!) have watched 3 school plays - albeit i said to myself I would only watch parts at a time as it is more important to me to break it down into manageable chunks still.

The confidence you gain from just small tasks is the key. For me there is no point rushing in and flooding myself. I am on a steady if slow improvement and that is the best way for me. In december I could not drive into my local town (3 miles) and get out of the car. Now I am able to get there, walk around a few shops and come home.

Hi Pinktel - you have done so well. From sitting in the car to be able to travel 10 miles is amazing to do it within a year. Breaking each step down along the way. Not giving up when it got tough. Was there an obvious turning point for you - when you thought I just have to get better (as it had been 20 years)? For me I think I am a bit like flossie in that my dog is what has changed things for me.

Pinktel

07-03-13, 10:48

Little wren there have been a few 'eureka' moments i would say...

Firstly watching the CBT4panic videos after reading the first workbook. I realised that after years of panic and trying CBT/hypnotherapy/flooding/counselling etc etc I had missed the link between feeling anxious and then allowing those feelings to escalate into panic. They are two separate situations, and I had equated anxiety to thinking "oh god and now i will panic". The realisation that one does not have to lead to the other is empowering.

Secondly being stuck at night alone waiting to pick somebody up in a car, i HAD to stay there. I had to work through the breathing which I thought would kill me. It didn't. If there were any way I could have left that situation more easily i would have but due to the CBT there was a tiny part of me that knew I should see it through. But it was horrid. But it taught me that the debilitating feeling of not being able to breathe is a lie. I'm not saying I don't still get that feeling, but when I do it doesn't hold such terror. I could probably do with a few more panics involving it to really clarify my thoughts on it further.

Thirdly, accepting that I over analyse and scan my body and thoughts constantly is important. Recognising that others don't and that is why they are less troubled. Each time I find myself thinking peculiarly, worrying that something isn't quite right, I just use my CBT on it and observe the thoughts as interesting and pay them no more attention.

Lastly I would say I am NOT cured at all, I still have a long way to go but I am focusing on how far I have come so far. Perhaps I will never drive myself alone on the M25 or fly to Australia but that's ok. I just need to concentrate on small steps, if you try to take it all in at once it becomes too great a task and then you lose confidence in your abilities.

The really weird thing is that i am beginning to view panic attacks as learning experiences, another step towards them not mattering to me, now i NEVER thought I would be thinking like that. Losing the shame about having a panic infront of people goes a long way to help.

Alabasterlyn

08-03-13, 10:03

I'm really struggling with my agoraphobia and anxiety at the moment. It's weird how the smallest health symptom seems to set me off and once again I have flipping problems with my teeth and I'm just at a point where I feel I just can't handle any more. I started going to the dentist back in October 2009 and since then I've had over 20 appointments and had root canals, gum surgery, crowns and regular fillings. The past few months one of my so called "successful" root canals has been playing up and then earlier this week one that I had done twice is also playing up. I have a lovely dentist who is always very good about my anxiety but at the moment I'm a bit annoyed as she has always made it clear to me that she would see me at a time that she knows I can get there, which is really early evenings and she does do one late night a week. However apparently she can't see me till the middle of April! You just start to think someone understands your problem and then you realise they obviously either don't have a clue or just don't care. I'm not sure whether to hang on till April or phone around to find a different dentist but I'm not very good with change.

Pinktel

08-03-13, 11:45

Alabasterlyn

08-03-13, 12:14

Alabasterlyn how about an early appointment - like the first one of the day? Then you know you won't have a waiting room full of people and won't be made to hang around? Could that be worth trying?

Also don't forget that the Easter break is coming up, perhaps she/he is going away or has childcare commitments that decrease the evenings she can do. There are only a few weeks until April anyway, so if she /he only does one late evening a week anyhow I guess it will soon fill up appointment wise.

It sounds like you have a good dentist who you already have a bit of an understanding with, if you like them I would be tempted to stick with them, perhaps as i say, try to be a bit more flexible yourself and ask for an early time slot, I doubt they are trying to upset you, sometimes life just gets in the way... even for dentists!! :D

I did just phone them again to try and sort out a different time. Their first appointments are at 8.30am which for me is a bit late as the roads from here to there at that time of morning are blocked solid with traffic.

What has really peeved me is the fact that this dentist has always said to me that she would accommodate me time wise regarding appointments and normally a wait of 6/8wks wouldn't bother me, but it does when I have pain on both sides of my mouth. Also the last time I went to see her they put my appointment back an hour to 7.30pm so that she could deal with another patient, so it kind of doesn't make sense to me.

Bonnibelle

11-03-13, 21:50

What is it I have? Here we go, long story hopefully cut short.

I was attacked by my brother last September, slowly I started withdrawing from the outside world, staying at home, scared in shops/cafes etc.... I stopped visiting friends too so became so lonely. My 'family' took my brothers side saying he is 'ill' so can't control his anger and because I cut him off I am the bad guy, so basically I became very low and lonely. I have a wonderful husband and 3 beautiful children who have been very understanding.

By December going into a public place was hell, at school concerts I wanted to run out, I felt dizzy, anxious, light headed, sickly, heart racing and hot flushes in my face. In the end I stopped going out so my GP had to come to my house to see me. He put me on an anti depressant to help anxiety which worked well but 7 weeks in I woke one night with my heart racing in the night, I had never had this before, nor had I ever worried about my heart so I decided to come off the medication as my GP said they can cause heart problems.

I am now off medication, 4 weeks now and feeling ok but the feelings of going into shops are creeping back and I am starting to find it hard again where as the med had helped abit. I am pushing myself and going to shops, resturants etc... but when I am there I feel trapped, can't wait until the end is in sight, I find it a very scary experience. The fear is of fainting infront of people and everyone seeing me having a panic attack, and doing this infront of my children. Once I had a panic attack in a shop, my heart raced, I was hot, my legs went to jelly, all at the checkout, that was another reason I stopped going out, I felt such a fool and it scared me.

I hate that these feelings are creeping back:-( I don't know how to stop them and just live a normal life. I want to work, I have a job interview monday but I doubt i will go because I can't sit in a room feeling trapped.

Can I do this without medication? I push myself daily to the shops, take my children out, but it is exhausting. I don't stay indoors but it is getting me down feeling like this, I fear it will beat me.

In the past I have only suffered health anxiety, so this is so new to me and I am not sure how to beat it. My GP referred me to the mental health team and after my assessment he said I could fight this on my own using past CBT techniques, but I had CBT for health anxiety, 5 years ago, very different.

Any advice appreciated. I am only 33, I have my life ahead of me, I am sick of being stuck at home or having to force myself to do things I used to take for granted.

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:47 ----------

Tomorrow I've a mobile hairdresser coming to my house, I so need a tidy up, but been able to go in six months but I'm scares stiff about her coming here:(( My fear is the same as going out. What if I have a panic attack infront of her and make a fool of myself?:( so I'm dreading tomorrow but don't want to cancel as I really need my hair cutting, as do my children. Any advice on how to cope is appreciated x

Pinktel

12-03-13, 09:51

Pearl there have been many times during the past 20 years when I could have written your exact post word for word (apart from the brother bit - don't have one!) but your tale is not unfamiliar.

Firstly I think you will only add fuel to your anxiety by constantly trying to work out "what you have" - be it agoraphobia, panic disorder, GAD, OCD whatever you want to call it, in a way it is largely irrelevant. What we all suffer from is inappropriate responses to anxiety. Resulting in panic. There can be many causes of how our anxiety began and again in a way this is also largely irrelevant. It won't have any real bearing on your recovery. We all trod different paths to get stuck in the same cycle of fear. And the way to break the cycle is the same method for each and every one of us.

Have you looked at some CBT either through your GP or from CBT4Panic, that is working for me and many others on here. The key thing to work on is getting to a mindset where you don't care about having a panic and there are methods and ways of reaching that point which are outlined through CBT.

Bonnibelle

12-03-13, 10:05

Thanks Pink,

I've suffered health anxiety for years but its never affected me leaving my house. I lost my nan last Juky, then I was attacked me in September and all my family took my violent brothers side, I've even lost my own mum:( I feel so upset and alone. It's affected me so much and I struggle going anywhere or people coming to visit, how I will cope with the hairdresser today I don't know, I am so scared I will make a fool of myself infront of her:(

I've had CBT in the past for health anxiety. I've had an assessment recently and was offered no help, no funds available on the nhs in our area so I'm just sat on a very long waiting list for therapy.

I've signed up for the CBT 4panic and downloaded the material which I'm going to start today.

I'm on no medication after a nasty reaction recently where I ended up in an ambulance. D rate he do this without meds but I'm worried you can't:(

I cry most days. I take my children to school, they are 10, 9 and 7. I come home, do housework the just sit on my own. I sometimes go for a drive in my car, I can some days manage a take away costa. Nip into our little local sainsburys but only in and out, and quickly back to my car. Some days I can walk my dogs, but only up and down outside my house. To think I need to walk all around the town, the woods... It's so sad:(

I hope I can get better, I panic about my children's wedding days, what if I can't go:( I think to the future and cry. I can't work, I wan to, I had to leave university, I was training to be a nurse. I feel my life is over and i just keep pushing myself for my children, I'm scared this will affect them. I can't even take them on holiday:( I feel I'm failing them.

So nice to have support here, thank you all x

Pearl there have been many times during the past 20 years when I could have written your exact post word for word (apart from the brother bit - don't have one!) but your tale is not unfamiliar.

Firstly I think you will only add fuel to your anxiety by constantly trying to work out "what you have" - be it agoraphobia, panic disorder, GAD, OCD whatever you want to call it, in a way it is largely irrelevant. What we all suffer from is inappropriate responses to anxiety. Resulting in panic. There can be many causes of how our anxiety began and again in a way this is also largely irrelevant. It won't have any real bearing on your recovery. We all trod different paths to get stuck in the same cycle of fear. And the way to break the cycle is the same method for each and every one of us.

Have you looked at some CBT either through your GP or from CBT4Panic, that is working for me and many others on here. The key thing to work on is getting to a mindset where you don't care about having a panic and there are methods and ways of reaching that point which are outlined through CBT.

reddevil

12-03-13, 10:21

Hi,

I'm the same, started with health anxiety then it moved onto being afraid to be sick and its making house bound and I had to tell the barber at the weekend to hurry up, embarrassing.

Red

Bonnibelle

12-03-13, 10:40

It is very frightening. I had anxiety for donkeys years, I sometimes felt a tad anxious when out but not often. I did the big food shop in huge supermarkets, took my kids to shows, cinema, bowling, shopping, parks....... Things i just can't do now and it breaks my heart.

Pinktel

12-03-13, 10:46

Pearl yet again i could have written most of your post, our kids are also similar ages and your daily routine sounds very familiar. I too lost my job and had to leave my PGCE course through anxiety. Health anxiety has always featured in my life.

Downloading the CBT4panic will be a really positive step for you. I think you should get reading the workbooks and after the first workbook watch the corresponding videos where Robin talks you through what you have just read. I think you will find it both enlightening and empowering.

I turn 40 this year and thought I cannot spend another 20 years as a victim to this. I am far from cured but this is a work in progress for me and I am 100 times better than I was last year when I freaked out on a car journey that was less than 3 hours and involved a dual carriageway (i wasn't even driving)!

Whatever you have done in the past you will be able to do again. Totally.

It is just a question of learning the right methods to retrain your brain and its responses and it boils down to fundamental psychology. Read some of my other posts on threads you will see how bad my phobias and anxieties have been in the past. CBT is working for me not meds (i have resolutely been far too anxious to take them!! despite my GP and husband and parents wanting me to!!)

It is hard for me to give you tips on coping with the hairdresser (another feeling I can totally relate to) because in my mind I KNOW you will be okay - as in - nothing bad will happen to you... but that is because the CBT I am practising is changing my opinion on panic so that i don't see it as a bad thing... hence why I say nothing 'bad' will happen.... I no longer view panic as quite so bad.

I still have a way to go but the fundamental shift in my opinions on panic is what is changing my life for me.

What's the worst that can happen?? You need to boil that down, clarify it in your mind. What you should actually do is use the hairdresser as your first practice of panic. Analysing how you feel after the event and realising none of your anticipated fears happened is key.

So for example if I were to take your hairdresser example, this is how I would work through it after...

What was my feared consequence of the visit? Well, I didn't want to have a panic infront of her and the kids... but I need to boil that down, what do I ACTUALLY fear? When I panic, what are my symptoms... short of breath? racing heart? fear of madness? Pick whatever your basic concerns are, perhaps you have never really focused on them so use your next panic to identify the underlying concerns. We don't so much fear panic as fear the unpleasant symptoms and what we then misinterpret those symptoms as meaning.

So let's pretend it was a racing heart. You feared you would have a heart attack and die. Now that's horrid, if you are having a hairdresser visit you in your home and all the while in the back of your mind you are telling yourself "This is all very well but in a moment I am going to drop down dead of a heart attack, traumatise my children for life and leave them motherless..." you can see that this genuine thought in your mind is quite rightly going to deliver a rush of adrenaline from your adrenals because you have told your body... prepare to die. Your poor body is trying to respond in the only way it can to fear, release adrenaline, it's the only thing it can do to try and help you. Of course, it's not needed, so its going to make you feel awful.

After your panic you need to think of all the symptoms you had that reinforced why you thought you were having a heart attack, and discount them, tell yourself that a pounding, skipping, racing heart is the number one result from adrenaline, tell yourself your GP has checked your heart and it is fine, think of all the many reasons why you KNOW there is nothing wrong with your heart.

After all that, conclude in your analysis sheets that you are NOT going to have a heart attack and die, leaving motherless children etc and that it is down to anxiety.

Do this infinite number of times!!! as many times as you panic. Do it til you are so bored of printing off the sheets etc. Work out your fear hierarchies, all the hundreds of things that you can't do without feeling anxious and then pick the one you feel most comfortable with currently and let that become your first challenge.

And take things slow. Small achievements will be hard won but they will boost your confidence immeasurably once you make them.

The other thing that has helped me the most is changing how I viewed panic. It was the most shameful thing in my life. I would go to the ends of the earth to avoid letting on I was anxious.

Friends were deeply shocked when I told them. (although some - the more intuitive - had guessed over the years). I fell into a slight decline in the months after being more open, felt I was losing myself, it is a hard adjustment when you have spent most of your adult life pretending to be something you are not. But now that I am beginning to work my way out of the panic I feel better that others know my struggle. the most surprising thing for me is that a) loads of people then tell you about little issues they have b) you would be surprised how many people have been through similar things or know someone who has and c) most people by far are NOT judgemental about things and offer only support. I didn't lose any friends, they still respect me for who i am (I thought they wouldn't) and the only person who found the process of admitting my shortcomings awkward in any way was ME.

I bet if you said to your hairdresser, hey come in, do you want a cup of tea, and by the way please don't think I'm insane but I have a panic disorder and have been really worried about this visit incase I panic infront of you.... I think she would warm to you instantly and feel sorry for you. Showing vulnerability is not a bad thing.

Anyway, let me know how you get on, keep in mind, you all need your hair doing, this is the best way for you to achieve this at present, and you are in your own home which you feel safe in.

hope this helps x

just read that last bit back, sounds a bit rude!! don't mean you need your hair doing cos it looks awful!!!!! just that you said in an earlier post you needed hair cuts xx

Bonnibelle

12-03-13, 11:07

Thank you so much for your helpful reply.

With me it is a fear of panic, the symptoms scare me but not in the way I may die, heart attack etc..... It started after my brother attacked me, I then became scared of going out, I had no idea what was going on but suddenly I started having panic attacks in public places, shops mainly..... I couldn't mix with anyone so stopped people coming to my house, incase I panicked infront of them, so for me it is a fear of a panic attack and showing myself up infront of others:-(( My symptoms are very unpleasant, I get all shaky, heart pounds, I get weak heavy limbs, I feel sick, feel I will faint........ They scare me even though I know they can't hurt me, it is just the embarrasment of someone noticing and showing myself up so I find going anywhere where I feel trapped, dentist, a que in a shop, hairdressers..... very scary. I am not sure how I can cope with that today when she comes to the house and I am too scared to tell the hairdresser I have this problem as she is a young girl, she is on my Facebook, I dont know her too well but she used to work at the salon I used to go to and we kept intouch as I wanted her to still do my hair and my childrens.

I just hope some day I can stop fearing this and overcome it, for my childrens sake as much as my own.

Pinktel

12-03-13, 11:25

You are going to get bored of me saying this but I could also have written that reply!!! :D:D:D

I used to also think I was scared of the panic itself, that I understood my body physically had nothing wrong with it etc. But I have learned that I was missing the point.

It is a subtle difference, an underlying psychology. You say you feel faint, funny feeling in limbs, heart pounding, feeing you will lose the plot and be insane. That is all excellent, you can identify your symptoms already.

Now imagine you don't have any of those symptoms.... they can't happen... none of those symptoms arise when you feel anxious... where would your panic be? It would be a bit of an anti climax.

The CBT will allow you to discount your symptoms.

You need to start picking apart your panic, separate it from the symptoms, it is a complicated idea to get your head round but KEY to understanding and rebuilding your thoughts.

It is not as simple as "oh I just fear having a panic attack, I know there's nothing physically wrong with me..."
think about it.... if you really believed that and it was that simple to cure you wouldn't be feeling the way you feel.

The psychology of it is far more involved. Please believe me when I say to you this is a fear of the symptoms you are invoking in yourself.

Learn to discount those symptoms and your panic will have not a leg to stand on, it is the symptoms which give your panic meaning. Who can have a panic attack completely free of symptoms??? Without them your panic is nothing. Panic IS the symptoms.

Even if you don't fully yet understand that, how about taking a leap of faith on this and getting stuck into the CBT4PANIC and take a punt on what I am telling you, start working on those symptoms, then when you start to see results in a few months time you will have the proof that it was the symptoms which were scaring you.

I can understand what you are saying about the young girl coming to do your hair, perhaps I was over zealous in my approach, it is harder with people who have less life experience etc. I can't think of a magic answer for that at the moment, but please do keep in mind that the more you can shed the stress of trying to hide your anxiety, the more you can rid yourself of the burden of keeping up appearances, the less anxious you will become naturally.

Hope this is making sense to you? I do waffle on a bit :D

---------- Post added at 11:25 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------

They scare me even though I know they can't hurt me

just re read your post and saw this - here is your proof, you have said it yourself, your symptoms scare you. As long as your symptoms scare you - it will result in panic. If you really really really knew they couldn't hurt you, they wouldn't scare you, not one jot, not a bit. Are you scared of a leaf? No, because you truly understand it cannot hurt you. That is how it feels to not be scared of something. You have admitted here that your symptoms do scare you, and that is where you need to begin, don't get caught up in making the same mistake that I did that I was scared of the panic. It was the symptoms all along.

Bonnibelle

12-03-13, 11:41

Thanks Pink.

Yes I understand what you mean. Yes the symptoms scare me but when I feel anxious and dread the symptoms happening it isn't because I fear a heart attack or anything like that, that was what I was trying to explain but not doing a very good job of it, lol! It is just that I fear the symptoms as they are frightening even though deep down I know nothing will happen. I just fear them happening and them scaring me, showing myself up and others noticing me. It is because once in Iceland at the till I had full blown panic attack and the girl knew, it was infront of my son too. I got to the car and broke down crying, i felt weak and shaky all day afterwards, from that day I stopped going out:-( so now I fear that happening again.

I will start the CBT course today, will it really stop me fearing the shaking, heart racing, weak limbs, hot flushes.....? I hope so as I know they are what are my reason for being agoraphobic.

Rain

12-03-13, 11:53

Pinktel, if I may say so, you have a really excellent understanding of panic attacks and your posts here are really interesting and helpful. Thanks so much for your input on this thread.

Pearl, I noticed that you are loath to let anyone know you have panic attacks in case they judge you. I have to go to the dentist every six months despite my agoraphobia and social anxiety for cleaning. I am always nervous but I realise people are often nervous at the dentist so I needn’t say anything. My reaction is ‘normal’ even though no one realises it’s the waiting room I fear and not the treatment.

However, I had to go to the chiropodist recently for the first time and after waiting half an hour I had become very nervous. I worried I might panic in the treatment room when I got in there. Even if I didn’t, I was going to be highly jittery. People are not usually ultra nervous in that situation, as they are not with hairdressers. So when I was called in I just said to the man, ‘I suffer from agoraphobia so if I appear nervous, it’s because being here is difficult for me. It’s not because I’m scared of the treatment.’ He couldn’t have been nicer and immediately I felt the pressure was off for me to ‘appear normal.’ We chatted for a little while about my agoraphobia and it relaxed me so much. I think we often feel like our panic is a guilty secret. If we simply refer to it in a matter of fact way, no one is going to go screaming out of the room shouting ‘Oh no- my client has panic attacks, she must be crazy!’ I think your hairdresser will be more understanding than you think.

I believe the more we try to hide our panic the worse it gets. Expose it to the air and watch its roots curl up and die!

Pinktel

12-03-13, 12:05

Yes it will work - it really will but you have to put the work in :D
I have had similar things happen to what you describe and it is horrid. Luckily my eldest is old enough to just roll her eyes now, but my youngest is totally unhelpful and will just melt down if I panic. I really do feel for you.
If you can already pick that these symptoms are not going to finish you off then you are already a step along the way on your journey to recovery.
You will have no problems with listing out the many reasons why after each panic your symptoms are meaningless.
This is how you will undermine your panic.
You will take away the its fuel.
If you don't give a stuff about shaking, heart racing, weak limbs, hot flushes, if they become as meaningless to you as scratching your armpit, you will find yourself laughing at yourself and your panic.
I know that sounds crazy but it is true. Once each and every one of those symptoms are no longer dreaded, you cannot have a panic attack. You WILL get there!

---------- Post added at 12:05 ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 ----------

Thanks Rain - glad if it can help people but can't take credit for it - that is down to the CBT4panic and Robin Hall's programme. For some reason it has struck all the right chords with me so for the first time in 20 years I see all the little ways in which I have been going about my recovery in the wrong way. Reading other people's messages on all these threads I see people left right and centre making the same repeated mistakes I have been making.

I laughed at your analogy of somebody running from the room screaming "help my client has panic attacks" but also felt great admiration for you that you could bring that to the chiropodists attention - it takes courage but isn't it incredible how that admission brought you the ability to carry on with the treatment. You had undermined your panic by removing the worry about appearing 'normal'. Another great 'feeder' of the panic is trying to pretend it's not there - a very stressful way of being and acting - you took that pressure off yourself and surprisingly found that it didn't send you into a full blown attack involving you having to leave etc.

Relish those small triumphs, remember them on any occasions you have when things don't go smoothly. They remind you of how things CAN be.

Rain

12-03-13, 12:24

flossie

12-03-13, 12:53

I am completely open about my agoraphobia to everyone. My thoughts about it are if someone cannot deal with it is that it is their problem. I have enough problems of my own to worry about their ignorance or intolerance. Nor will they be someone I wish to have as a friend so their opinion is of little value to me.
Having said that, in over 30 years I have had very little negative reaction. Maybe I have just been very lucky. The vast majority are extremely supportive and it is surprising the number of times people have been through or had a loved one going through the same type of anxiety issue. Those who work with members of the public deal with anxiety sufferers on a daily basis so while it is a big thing for us it is just all in a days work for them. Don't forget that many of them will have some kind of anxiety problem too. The main thing I realised was how I present the agoraphobia topic myself. I tend be upfront and matter of fact about it but I also laugh about it and about myself. I will say something like 'Don't worry if I start to do the River Dance around the room or disappear for a couple of minutes, it's just me getting the fidgets because I am anxious.' Also if you need a break while having your hair cut it doesn't become a huge issue, the hairdresser will be patient and wait until you feel able to continue.

I am very impressed with CBT4Panic so far. The important part for me is being able to watch the videos. I have read many CBT books over the years and watching someone actually present the information is much better to relate to. I think during times of contemplation imagining Robins face and his words will come to mind easier than written text.

Pearl. Remember that the agoraphobia is only a little part of who your are. The trouble is that it comes to overwhelm everything we do. We give it too much importance. Don't worry about the childrens weddings or other events that we have no idea whether or not they will come about. As anxiety sufferers we all spend too much time worrying about things that may never happen.
Don't forget that No Panic are there for you to call if you feel you need to talk to a fellow sufferer about your anxiety. I have called them in the past when I got confused about my recovery and how I was tackling it. They are also there as an option for a telephone CBT course.

Bonnibelle

12-03-13, 13:10

Thank you both.

I think I need to remember that I do still do some things and I need to be proud of those. I take my children to school, I take them to the sweet shop, to their clubs, parties, to the park, walk the dogs with them, I even attempted Nandos a few weekends ago, I was packed but I did it,I panicked the whole time and felt dreadful but I did it for my sons birthday. I just hope I can do today for them, we all need our hair cutting,I just hope I can sit relaxed and have it done and not let extreme panic hit, as it will scare them.

I have started the work books, it scares me even reading book 1 I feel anxious, lol!

---------- Post added at 13:10 ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 ----------

Thanks Flossie.

I have told family and close friends about battling agoraphobia, they don't seem to understand though. My mum and sisters have no idea what I am going through, before I had to cut them off I told my mum how bad I was and she told my sister and she said I was attention seeking as anyone with agoraphobia can't even go outside their house:-(

I don't fancy telling my hairdresser I suffer with it, she is a very young girl, and I feel a little embarrassed telling her really. I know I shouldn't but I do. I am just hoping I can stop myself from full blown panic, where my heart starts thudding, legs shake and I go into full on shaking and dizziness, because then I fear I will show myself up and not be able to calm down. I know I am building myself up and convincing myself it will happen. I did this last year, I had a gynae appointment at the hospital in October, I knew agoraphobia was creeping in then as I had dreaded going. As soon as I got in the room, I went hot in my face, dizzy, couldn't focus, heart raced, I couldn't keep still.... it was awful. Since that day I panic about it happening again. Then it did in the shop in November, it isn't nice and it has terrified me of it happening infront of people as it really shows me up.

I am completely open about my agoraphobia to everyone. My thoughts about it are if someone cannot deal with it is that it is their problem. I have enough problems of my own to worry about their ignorance or intolerance. Nor will they be someone I wish to have as a friend so their opinion is of little value to me.
Having said that, in over 30 years I have had very little negative reaction. Maybe I have just been very lucky. The vast majority are extremely supportive and it is surprising the number of times people have been through or had a loved one going through the same type of anxiety issue. Those who work with members of the public deal with anxiety sufferers on a daily basis so while it is a big thing for us it is just all in a days work for them. Don't forget that many of them will have some kind of anxiety problem too. The main thing I realised was how I present the agoraphobia topic myself. I tend be upfront and matter of fact about it but I also laugh about it and about myself. I will say something like 'Don't worry if I start to do the River Dance around the room or disappear for a couple of minutes, it's just me getting the fidgets because I am anxious.' Also if you need a break while having your hair cut it doesn't become a huge issue, the hairdresser will be patient and wait until you feel able to continue.

I am very impressed with CBT4Panic so far. The important part for me is being able to watch the videos. I have read many CBT books over the years and watching someone actually present the information is much better to relate to. I think during times of contemplation imagining Robins face and his words will come to mind easier than written text.

Pearl. Remember that the agoraphobia is only a little part of who your are. The trouble is that it comes to overwhelm everything we do. We give it too much importance. Don't worry about the childrens weddings or other events that we have no idea whether or not they will come about. As anxiety sufferers we all spend too much time worrying about things that may never happen.
Don't forget that No Panic are there for you to call if you feel you need to talk to a fellow sufferer about your anxiety. I have called them in the past when I got confused about my recovery and how I was tackling it. They are also there as an option for a telephone CBT course.

Pinktel

12-03-13, 13:22

remember to watch the accompanying video to workbook 1 once you have read it, Robin makes it all NOT scary :)

well done for taking action against how you are feeling, that is the firststep and yes, continue to remember how much you are already currently achieving - with or without panic symptoms.

---------- Post added at 13:15 ---------- Previous post was at 13:14 ----------

flossie - i really like the videos too :)

---------- Post added at 13:18 ---------- Previous post was at 13:15 ----------

Rain I am certain people will not be thinking you are a drug addict, I can only speak from my experience but if I saw someone fidgeting/acting suspiciously I wouldn't think they were a drug addict. I think we are all victims of thinking poorly about ourselves, weight, looks, are we funny enough, clever enough, etc etc, it's something a lot of women contend with daily.

Finding ways to overcome these self doubts would make someone a lot of money :D

---------- Post added at 13:22 ---------- Previous post was at 13:18 ----------

and pearl - one final point from me - i think you are actually already some way towards understanding and getting under the skin of panic.

you know your body is sound physically.
now you will begin to apply the psychological methods that will PROVE this to your unconscious mind.
one by one you will undermine all those symptoms you so desperately do not want to happen.
once you have undermined them, exposed them for what they are, you will be panic free.
Let us all know how you get on with your hairdresser, remember - we have all been right where you are many times :)

flossie

12-03-13, 13:22

I think wanting desperately to appear normal is behind a lot of our panic attacks.My agoraphobia and social anxiety are very much tied up with my physical appearance. When I first started getting panic attacks, I was upset at having being constantly mistaken for a man. I am very androgynous and I can understand why people aren’t sure of my gender at first glance, but this really embarrasses me. I see people do a double take or hear them call me ‘sir’ and it is such an awkward moment it makes me want to curl up and die. For a time I’d deliberately try to look more feminine when I went out, but this just made me feel even more weird as I am naturally what you might call a tomboy. So I stopped doing that. But the more I stopped trying to be something that I’m not, the more I felt ashamed of how people might perceive the real me. This led to years of avoidance.

Over the years, mainly because of medication following a breakdown I gained loads of weight. Now my whole view of myself has shifted. I don’t care too much anymore if people are unsure of my gender. I just feel they are shocked and repulsed by my size. I feel I will never tackle my agoraphobia and social anxiety until I manage to become what is perceived as a normal size.

The other thing I fear is people noticing how nervous I am and worrying that they might think I’m a drug addict or something because I’m shaking. Or else they might think I’m a shop lifter because I look shifty in a shop. I guess all three things come down to feeling ashamed of falling short of the norm. My dream would be to blend in and go un-noticed. I feel like I stand out as being freakish and I can’t bear anyone staring at me. This goes back to my childhood because when we would have the class photo taken, I always thought I stood out as being ‘different’ in a bad way. I wonder how many more of us with agoraphobia feel like misfits?

Rain, you are who you are. Be true to yourself and don't change to please others. Anyone of any worth will accept and love you because you are Rain.
If you decide to wear a pink frilly dress every day then you will be denying yourself to live your life as yourself. We all come in different shapes, sizes, colours, faiths, nationality and gender preference. Just go out as you. Be proud to be you. You are not a bad person, you don't go round mugging grannys or stealing sweets from kids. You have as much right to live your life as you wish as everyone else. I suppose that others will look at you in much the same way as we all look at each other. Sometimes we take more notice of one person as we may feel drawn toward them. It doesn't necessarily mean the attention is from negativity or malice. I think our anxiety makes us feel that others are always noticing our looks or that we are having a panic. It isn't true. Everyone else is far too busy and caught up in the things they have to fit into their day that we don't even register on their radar, and if we do then they obviously have very sad lives and need to get a hobby. You cannot change other people so don't worry about them. Concentrate on yourself and what you would like for you. Work on the things that you can change.

Just wanted to add I wouldn't wear a pink frilly dress either - so if that makes you peculiar then I am happy to be peculiar too.

Rain

12-03-13, 13:29

Thanks very much. Lovely words. :hugs:

Bonnibelle

12-03-13, 13:30

I will Pink, thank you for your kind words, thank you Rain and Flossie too x I will update tonight:-) Wish me luck;-) x

Rain

12-03-13, 13:32

Good luck Pearl. You'll do fine, I'm sure. You'll soon have a funky new hairdo.

Bonnibelle

12-03-13, 13:42

If I don't chicken out, I have very long hair, right down my back andI am going for a shoulder wavy style type bob. I must be mad!!! I have grown my long hair for years, lol!

Good luck Pearl. You'll do fine, I'm sure. You'll soon have a funky new hairdo.

Pinktel

12-03-13, 20:58

How did you get on pearl?

Bonnibelle

12-03-13, 21:04

I did it, I didn't panic at all!!! I felt fine. I'm amazed!!!! Thank you for asking:)) Thank you all for today. X

Pinktel

12-03-13, 22:03

Nice one pearl!

Bonnibelle

12-03-13, 22:34

Thank you:) x

Bonnibelle

13-03-13, 11:23

Major set back today:-( I have been ill twice recently with sinusitis so spent alot of time at home, I haven't been out much recently because of this but when I have I have been ok. This morning I felt a little tired, and didn't feel I could manage a shop or even getting out of the car to drop the children off but I did it. I then went to get diesel and I decided to nip to the local Tesco just to get a mop head as ours is disgusting and I wanted to get cleaning at home. I knew I wasn't up to it and this shop isn't one of my 'safe' shops, I never go to it alone if I do go. I went in, got the things I needed, all near the till or I wouldn't have attempted it. I felt my heart thudding as I approached the till, then as I was scanning I started shaking, such strong shaking it frightened me. I felt like I was going to collapse, then just my luck it said I needed assistance so I had to wait for the lady to come over to sort out what wouldn't scan, nightmare. I was there absolutely shaking, and heart thudding, I felt like I wanted to run out but I stuck through it.

Once I got to the car I cried and cried, I have only just stopped now 2 hours on. I am so dissapointed. The last time I had the shaking and heart racing like that was in Iceland in November and that was when I stopped going out:-( In the last 2 months I have got out more, pushed myself, had mild anxiety symptoms but never anything like today. Why was I shaking so much? it hit out of nowhere, I didn't get the weak limbs and light head like I usually get and I can cope with them. This was full on shaking and I am scared now it will hit again so I can see myself never going out again:-(

I am so upset, why did this have to happen. I have 3 children, I can't let this hit me this bad again. It is so upsetting, yesterday I managed the hairdresser at my house and now I am devastated I feel I am back to square one.

I have just been sat at home crying, I am 33, I feel like giving up now:-( maybe I can't fight this.

---------- Post added at 11:23 ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 ----------

I usually go to Costa each morning for a take away, local small Sainsburys.... I can't see me ever doing them again after what happened in Tesco this morning. I took for granted what I had started doing:-(

Pinktel

13-03-13, 13:35

Pearl this is NOT a major setback this is just what happens with anxiety.

If recovery were as simple as being told by somebody

"you have anxiety stop being silly, just get on with it now, you are just feeling flight or flght symptoms... is that clear now?"

.... well then, we would all skip off into the sunset happily and never have another panic attack or anxiety episode again.

But that's not how this disorder works. We wouldn't all be on these boards asking endless questions if the answer were that simple.

Start your CBT. Get out workbook 1 and start absorbing it. Watch the accompanying videos with Robin discussing workbook 1.

You have described nothing to me that I haven't experienced myself countless times. You dread that shaking, it's uncontrollable, you dread the pounding heart, the feeling that you must escape immediately incase you collapse or embarrass yourself to death.

The ONLY way to successfully get over this is to equip yourself with the tools and methods that allow you to lose your fear of shaking, pounding heart, or whatever else your symptoms happen to be (and they can and do change - but no matter - you just use exactly the same techniques you are going now to learn).

It takes time. It can be unpredictable. It is hard.

But the psychological processes involved to get over this are the same for me, you and everyone else suffering this way.

The more you learn about this the more you will see you had picked a situation that you were not prepared for. You say you don't go into that Store alone. You weren't feeling great anyway. List out all the reasons why this was difficult for you... why would you expect to just magically be fine with it all when you were probably full of anticipatory anxiety at the mere thought of entering the shop.

What you should do now is use this panic as a great learning experience. List your symptoms, boil down what you feared would happen what could the shaking have lead to, what could the pounding heart mean, what were your darkest fears from these symptoms, then begin to rationalise all the reasons why that could NOT happen, leading to the conclusion that it was caused by anxiety. As obvious as it sounds, (because you already know it is anxiety caused) you still need to do this, this is the cognitive re training bit of the CBT, it is tedious and boring but it is the repetitive re thinking that needs to be drilled into your mind.

You WILL get there but you have to put the work in :)

Bonnibelle

13-03-13, 13:45

Thank you PInk,

I am on workbook 2, up to the panic attack diary. I started yesterday.

I have pushed myself daily since November when I had a bad attack in a shop which made me stay in for weeks on end. Today was the first timem I have had a bad attack since then. I usually feela little weak, light headed etc... but never like this. My heart was racing and and the shaking just hit out of nowhere, I couldn't stop, why was I shaking so badly? it really did hit out of the blue. I usually feel a little scared in shops but never to that extent:-( so now I am scared I won't go out again as i will work myself up expecting the shaking again, even in places I was comfortable in:-(

I am going to work so hard at the workbooks x

Pearl this is NOT a major setback this is just what happens with anxiety.

If recovery were as simple as being told by somebody

"you have anxiety stop being silly, just get on with it now, you are just feeling flight or flght symptoms... is that clear now?"

.... well then, we would all skip off into the sunset happily and never have another panic attack or anxiety episode again.

But that's not how this disorder works. We wouldn't all be on these boards asking endless questions if the answer were that simple.

Start your CBT. Get out workbook 1 and start absorbing it. Watch the accompanying videos with Robin discussing workbook 1.

You have described nothing to me that I haven't experienced myself countless times. You dread that shaking, it's uncontrollable, you dread the pounding heart, the feeling that you must escape immediately incase you collapse or embarrass yourself to death.

The ONLY way to successfully get over this is to equip yourself with the tools and methods that allow you to lose your fear of shaking, pounding heart, or whatever else your symptoms happen to be (and they can and do change - but no matter - you just use exactly the same techniques you are going now to learn).

It takes time. It can be unpredictable. It is hard.

But the psychological processes involved to get over this are the same for me, you and everyone else suffering this way.

The more you learn about this the more you will see you had picked a situation that you were not prepared for. You say you don't go into that Store alone. You weren't feeling great anyway. List out all the reasons why this was difficult for you... why would you expect to just magically be fine with it all when you were probably full of anticipatory anxiety at the mere thought of entering the shop.

What you should do now is use this panic as a great learning experience. List your symptoms, boil down what you feared would happen what could the shaking have lead to, what could the pounding heart mean, what were your darkest fears from these symptoms, then begin to rationalise all the reasons why that could NOT happen, leading to the conclusion that it was caused by anxiety. As obvious as it sounds, (because you already know it is anxiety caused) you still need to do this, this is the cognitive re training bit of the CBT, it is tedious and boring but it is the repetitive re thinking that needs to be drilled into your mind.

You WILL get there but you have to put the work in :)

Pinktel

13-03-13, 14:07

Thank you PInk,

I am on workbook 2, up to the panic attack diary. I started yesterday.

I have pushed myself daily since November when I had a bad attack in a shop which made me stay in for weeks on end. Today was the first timem I have had a bad attack since then. I usually feela little weak, light headed etc... but never like this. My heart was racing and and the shaking just hit out of nowhere, I couldn't stop, why was I shaking so badly? it really did hit out of the blue. I usually feel a little scared in shops but never to that extent:-( so now I am scared I won't go out again as i will work myself up expecting the shaking again, even in places I was comfortable in:-(

I am going to work so hard at the workbooks x

You will learn how to overcome it. Even saying "now i am scared I won't go out again as I will work myself up expecting the shaking again..." can you see how this is all adding fuel to the fire? We all do it. It's why we have the problems we do. If you left that shop and never thought about your experience again and didn't care that it had happened, you wouldn't suffer next time you went in there. We perpetuate the whole thing continually.

Why does it happen? Because adrenaline is such an effective drug and our bodies our incredible machines which respond to mechanisms that are in play without you even realising. It was a shop you don't go in alone, you had already set the scene that this was a step outside your comfort zone. That's all that is required for your mind to be on higher alert, then like a rolling snowball it can very quickly get to a point where you feel you have lost control.

If you have a shop where you feel more comfortable then that is where you are going to have to begin your journey. I started mine with the school run. it was something I had been having to do daily so I knew I could do it but I knew i wasn't entirely comfortable with it. This is what I started my fear hierarchy with. It was my first goal. Until I could do this and enjoy it, feel confident, not a hint of dizziness, anxiety, shakiness, or any heart symptoms etc, only when I was actually bored of practising my CBT on this situation did I turn my attention to the next thing on my list.

Find something you can do - the school run perhaps? Be honest with yourself, are you entirely confident, comfortable, happy, etc doing it? If the answer is no then start on this. It may take a while before you have the knowledge, confidence and tools to attempt the Tesco, but when you do you need to have everything in place to make it a successfull trip - and that will only come once you have practised having panic attacks and surviving them and analysing and learning from them.

Get cracking with those workbooks and you will get there.

Bonnibelle

13-03-13, 14:40

Thanks Pinktel.

I am so determined. I have been to Tesco before but only with my children or husband but always felt anxious in there, today it was a full on panic attack but I was alone so maybe I should not have done it. I should only stick to my usual safe shops I can manage.

I just had to go and collect my son early from school as he is ill, I felt so anxious driving to the school, my heart was racing walking in but I knew I had to do it, I couldn't leave him there. THen once I got him I decided to go to my 'safe' shop, I go to Sainsburys Local often, it is a very small one, I was scared but thought i would go in and just buy the children some sweets as a treat for after school and I managed it, I felt ok, a little scared and heart was fast but I didn't fall apart like this morning or shake. I feel much happier and so glad I forced myself to do it, maybe i can put a positive spin on today after all.

No, the school run is hard for me, I never walk now, I haven't in years. I had a misscarriage 3 years ago, needed an operation to remove it and after that I had 12 months of horrendous heavy periods which I guess caused some form of agoraphobia then as I hated going out, I was often at home all day, and I left work. I stopped walking to school for fear of bleeding, I ended up with a phobia of bleeding all month, not just during my period. I then started using the car, and my car became my safe place too. Then after my brother attacked me I used the car even more. I would occasionally walk with my dog to pick up the children but I can't do that now. When I go to the school now I park as close as I can, if I have to park further away and walk I get anxious, I am even more anxious about that today to be honest.

I will get stuck into workbook 2 later today once the children are settled, I am so determined.

flossie

13-03-13, 18:19

Pearl, I agree with Pinktel. This is definitely not a set back, not even a teeny one. You are thinking negatively. Stop and think of all the things you have achieved in these 2 days. You had your hair cut. The build up to that will have made you tired as you have been anxious about it. You took the children to school - another achievement. Then you went to fill up the car :yesyes: And then you decided to push yourself again and go and do some shopping. OK, so it didn't go as you would have wanted but you didn't run from it, you stayed and stuck it out. Don't start fretting about going back to the shop. Walk in the door and pretend that you are looking for someone if need be so that you haven't the pressure of going through the till. Just put your head in the door if that is all you feel you can manage. You are in control. It is up to you how far you go or do not go. You can decide that you will walk up to the door and not go in. That is fine too. Get used to being around the Tesco store again and learning that you can be there without the anxiety you experienced today.
Are you sure that the crying is not really a release of all the tension you have built up over the last few days rather than disappointment? Also realise that anxiety makes us tired, tiredness makes us more anxious which makes us even more tired, and so it goes on. Once you can recognise that in yourself you will know that sometimes you need to take a step back and give yourself a bit of breathing space. You tried to fit in a lot this morning when you were already tired. You had a blip, that is all. Learn from it. Take recovery little steps at a time. Be kind to yourself when you achieve and be even kinder when things don't go as smoothly as you would have liked.
Don't make recovery into a battle. Relax into it, don't fight it.

Bonnibelle

14-03-13, 06:49

Thanks Flossie.

I'm just so disappointed as its knocked what little confidence I had.

I can't work, I'm such at home all day, I usually take the children to school then go for a drive, Costa for a take out... I seriously can't face that again for a while after yesterday. I don't want to show myself up in there as they know me. Maybe I need to get a bit tougher first, and do more on this course.

I'm under alot of stress, lost my nan to pneumonia, my mum and sisters because of my brother attacking me. I then started with all of this, its not been at all easy:( I've woken up this morning and I feel so sad:( hoping all this was a terrible nightmare.

I know people have it far worse than I do, but i am scared of getting worse. I've 3 children and I've been in tears thinking things like I'm a terrible mother. I'm shattering any memories they should have, holidays, days out..... I feel I'm letting them down the last 4-6 months being like this:(

little wren

14-03-13, 07:52

Pearl - Keep heart :) I think progress is going to be like that - up and down (or that's the way I see it). Don't feel disheartened (believe me I know that's easy to say and hard to do)...I would echo pink and flossie of small steps...just heading in the right direction. I don't think there is one person who reads this thread who cannot empathize with how you are feeling...It sounds like it was a bit too much too soon - can you go back to the last step you felt ok with and then work up to tesco at a slower rate? xxxxxlittlewrenxxxx

Bonnibelle

14-03-13, 11:09

Thanks Little Wren.

I went back to Sainsburys again today, it is just a small local one so not big at all. I felt anxious at the till, racing heart and felt like running out but I paid and walked out casually. The shakes didn't kick in but it proves yesterday has really set me back mentally. I even felt anxious in the car today, and at home, these are my safe places:-( if I can't be comfortable here where can I be?:blush:

I am terrified of being totally housebound, I have 3 young children and I feel so guilty for being this way, I can't be the Mum I should be.

Pinktel

14-03-13, 11:22

Well done for making yourself do difficult stuff again pearl, it is that exact spirit that is going to be your biggest ally in all this.

We all feel guilt that we aren't good enough, not a good enough parent, friend, partner, sibling... The list goes on. If you asked your kids they wouldn't want anybody else but you, even my teenage daughter says this to me and she's always rolling her eyes at my shortcomings!

The uncomfortable answer to your question "if I can't be comfortable here, where can I be?" ?.. is nowhere.... Until you lose the fear of what you are feeling and thinking. Our scary symptoms are manufactured by our own bodies and we are entirely capable of experiencing them wherever we fancy. If you start trying to NOT have them in your car.... Guess where you' ll start having them?

The only key to freedom from this is to teach yourself through thought and behaviour that panic is NOT to be feared. When you get to the stage that you say come on panic, do your worst, THAT is when the tide will begin to turn for you.

Bonnibelle

14-03-13, 12:04

Thanks Pinktel, I hope one day I get to that stage.

I suffered panic attacks when I was 19 for about a year but then I married my husband, had children and it all went away. I still suffered health anxiety but not having panic attacks. So to suddenly start with panic disorder again is a shock and I can't begin to remember how I fought it last time but I do remember I became strong and didn't fear them. It didn't cause agoraphobia back then though, I still used to use the bus, go to work every day.... how i did it I don't know feeling that anxious, I used to have panic attacks on the bus home. I can't do anything like that now.

I just walked my dogs, up and down on the main road outside my house, my house was never out of view but I did it. I feel silly though that I was right by my house, did people look and wonder why I didn't venture any further. I did it 6 times up and down then brought the dogs home.

little wren

14-03-13, 13:05

I just walked my dogs, up and down on the main road outside my house, my house was never out of view but I did it. I feel silly though that I was right by my house, did people look and wonder why I didn't venture any further. I did it 6 times up and down then brought the dogs home.

Pearl - walking the dog is a common theme on here. I am only able to walk mine around my cul-de-sac and onto the main road very briefly. I do wonder whether people are thinking - what is she doing? There is a park just down my road where the other dogs from my cul-de-sac go. I think I no longer care anymore...thing is people are so caught up in there own lives they probably aren't even paying much attention to what you are doing. Flossie put a nice post on here about the dog being happy just to be out and sniffing and going out as far as you are able each time :)

---------- Post added at 13:05 ---------- Previous post was at 13:03 ----------

The uncomfortable answer to your question "if I can't be comfortable here, where can I be?" ?.. is nowhere.... Until you lose the fear of what you are feeling and thinking. Our scary symptoms are manufactured by our own bodies and we are entirely capable of experiencing them wherever we fancy. If you start trying to NOT have them in your car.... Guess where you' ll start having them?

The only key to freedom from this is to teach yourself through thought and behaviour that panic is NOT to be feared. When you get to the stage that you say come on panic, do your worst, THAT is when the tide will begin to turn for you.

Wow pinktel ... that is so well put - profound even.

Bonnibelle

14-03-13, 13:46

I felt anxious as I walked my dogs but at least I did it.

I still feel very low today. I am doing the CBT4Panic course but reading through it I can't ever see me being comfortable and not fearing the extreme panic when it hits, there is no way I could stand there in a shop shaking, heart racing, feeling like I may collpase and not feel like I needed to run out. THe shaking I had yesterday was so intense.

Pinktel

14-03-13, 14:11

I used to think like that Pearl.

But you are not going to ask those questions of yourself yet.

you are going to list out your fear hierarchies including everything you no longer feel confident doing - and the list will be long - and you are going to start at the very beginning.

If that means you walk your dogs in the garden and concentrate on the school run then that is where you begin.

Forget about the Tesco experience - you're not ready for that - be guided by your own feelings on it, stick with the least worrisome event for now and practice getting that one right. The rest will come later. :)

Bonnibelle

14-03-13, 14:22

You're right, I need to work on being comfortable at the school, then walking the dogs, then shops.....but big supermarkets are a way off yet.

x

fishman65

14-03-13, 14:50

Hi guys,

OK I'm not going to go to parent's evening with my wife and 13 year old daughter.I went to the career's evening last week and I managed it but really struggled and it went by in a blur.

These parent's evenings are tough at the best of times,you have to go from table to table,sitting face on to each teacher and every time I'm thinking of it,I'm getting surges of high anxiety.I could take an extra dose of diazepam,but really don't want to have to do that.Sorry guys I've kind of butted in here.Hope you are having better days.

Take care, Fishy

Bonnibelle

14-03-13, 16:07

I feel the same at parents evenings, always found them daunting but worse now. I couldn't go to my childrens last Monday but I was ill in bed with a virus and sinusitis. I know if it was today I couldn't go, so I can totally relate to how you feel. You made last week that is what counts. Don't beat yourself up about parents evening, I don't for not going last week, it is just one of those things, sometimes my husband hasn't been and I have had to do it alone. xx

flossie

14-03-13, 16:11

fishman. You haven't butted in at all. Your anxieties are equally as important as everyone elses. Many parents who do not consider themselves to have anxiety get extremely tense and jittery at having to go to parents evening, it isn't just you. We become so focused on ourselves that we forget that there are situations when the average person feels uncomfortable too.
Well done for making the careers evening last week:yesyes:

Pinktel

14-03-13, 16:40

yes it's like flossie says - because we have lost the naievity (spell??) of life without panic we automatically associate all uncomfortable situations where anxiety is present as potential/definite panic situations.

Other parents may be sitting there thinking - gosh this is all very formal and serious, there are a lot of people here I don't know, what if I see so and so who isn't very nice, what if the teachers say something bad, I hate being in school it brings back bad memories etc etc etc..... it's just that because they have never experienced a panic attack - that's as far as the anxieties go - they remain simple anxieties, they haven't learned to misinterpret and catastrophize their feelings of uneasiness into the inevitability of a panic.

We will never regain our naievity of life before panic which is why recovery is hard. But it is possible when we truly understand the repeated mistakes we are making, learn to truly believe the symptoms we are suffering are meaningless and that therefore we have nothing to fear from a panic other than it making us feel horrid/potentially embarrassing ourselves. At that point the real recovery can begin.

Don't beat yourself up for not making the parents evening. If it is beyond you at present then it is beyond you at present.

Pick something that is less frightening and let that be your start.

flossie

14-03-13, 16:52

Pearl - Do you realise just how brave you are? Every day you are coming on here and telling us that you have taken the children to school, popped into the shop and taken the dog for a walk. All while coping with high anxiety. Then you tell us how everything is going so wrong and you can't do these things. Well you can do them because you are proving it time and again. Everytime you tell yourself that you cannot do it you are putting yourself down and bullying yourself. Change the way you think about things.

for example:
For years I continually told myself that I couldn't go out. Why couldn't I go out. No one had bricked up the door. I realised that I could go out but that in fact I was choosing not to. Because I was frightened of experiencing the anxiety and the panic I was actively making the choice not to do something. It took me a long time to realise it but once I did that was one of my lightbulb moments. I changed my thinking to 'I can go out if I wish but I am choosing not to.' Just thinking differently took a lot of the fear away. I suddenly took control of whether I went through the door or not. I chose whether or not I walked to the post box or the shop. I took control of my choices rather that the anxiety having the control.

I know that I am not explaining myself very well here. Stop telling yourself that you can't do these things. By doing this you keep reinforcing the negative thoughts that hold us all back. It becomes a bad habit that we are not even aware of doing. If you are not going to go to the Tesco shop again yet don't fall into the trap of thinking 'I can't go into Tesco again, I shall panic and feel awful like last time and everyone will see how bad I am feeling.' Change it to something like 'I am choosing not to go into Tesco at this time.' That way you change the statement to a decision that you are making and are taking control.
I know some will call not going back avoidance. Personally, I call it knowing your limits.
Dog walking? For years I walked my dogs just a few metres up and down the road either side of my front door. I often couldn't even do that and I couldn't cross the road. Who cares what the neighbours think. Your actions have nothing to do with them. Live your life to please you, you do not have to account yourself to anyone. Your dog doesn't care how far he goes, he just likes to go out the door and sniff the lamp post.
Also stop using all that energy worrying about the future, about things that will not happen as you are tackling your anxieties. Worrying about the future stops you from enjoying today. Use that energy on recovery and put it into your partner and children. Enjoy today and feel proud of yourself for all you achieve every day.

Bonnibelle

14-03-13, 20:36

Thank you so much Flossie.

You are right, I am just thinking so negatively because of one bad day yesterday. I had a good cry tonight to my husband, I actually said some things I shouldn't have said and he hated me saying them. I said if I didn't have my children I would give up, it made him worry and he said he hates hearing me so low and seeing me so isolated. I was the kind of person that woke up and couldn't wait to go out, I took my daughter girly shopping on a Saturday, lunch together,.... I loved every moment with my children. Now I can't do those things and I know it is affecting them. They have me, I love them and I will battle on for them, they know that. :)

I just feel so sad because before yesterday I was making changes, even though I had to come off the anti depressants for my anxiety due to the heart thing, I still continued to go out. I went to the post office, Sainsburys Local, Costa for take out, Spar, school runs...... Now I feel so set back, I managed to try Sainsburys Local today but only bought a few things that were right near the till and I felt on edge doing that, could feel my heart pounding. I know walking the dogs was an achievement but I felt anxious the whole time, my legs were like jelly.

I should be proud I went back out today but instead I feel very sad. I do keep beating myself up for it all and I know I shouldn't do.

I am saying Tesco is just too much right now, not avoidance but right now it is just a bit too much of a a challenge for me on my own just yet. I will one day try again but once I know I am capable.:winks:

I just hope I can get strength and be able to go into shops and not panic. I am reading the work books with the CBT 4 panic course and they say to let the panic happen, and not panic at the symptoms just accept them. I know they can't hurt me, I said yesterday to myself it was just adrenaline but the violent shaking wouldn't stop, nor would my heart calm down, so how can I ever relax when that happens, if it happens again:blush: that is my concern that this course won't help me because that violent shaking does terrify me even though I know it is just a panic symptom, it feel so awful and I fear I may collapse, it is so horrible feeling like that.

Thank you for your reply, this place is a god send, having people who understand means so much right now. x

Pearl - Do you realise just how brave you are? Every day you are coming on here and telling us that you have taken the children to school, popped into the shop and taken the dog for a walk. All while coping with high anxiety. Then you tell us how everything is going so wrong and you can't do these things. Well you can do them because you are proving it time and again. Everytime you tell yourself that you cannot do it you are putting yourself down and bullying yourself. Change the way you think about things.

for example:
For years I continually told myself that I couldn't go out. Why couldn't I go out. No one had bricked up the door. I realised that I could go out but that in fact I was choosing not to. Because I was frightened of experiencing the anxiety and the panic I was actively making the choice not to do something. It took me a long time to realise it but once I did that was one of my lightbulb moments. I changed my thinking to 'I can go out if I wish but I am choosing not to.' Just thinking differently took a lot of the fear away. I suddenly took control of whether I went through the door or not. I chose whether or not I walked to the post box or the shop. I took control of my choices rather that the anxiety having the control.

I know that I am not explaining myself very well here. Stop telling yourself that you can't do these things. By doing this you keep reinforcing the negative thoughts that hold us all back. It becomes a bad habit that we are not even aware of doing. If you are not going to go to the Tesco shop again yet don't fall into the trap of thinking 'I can't go into Tesco again, I shall panic and feel awful like last time and everyone will see how bad I am feeling.' Change it to something like 'I am choosing not to go into Tesco at this time.' That way you change the statement to a decision that you are making and are taking control.
I know some will call not going back avoidance. Personally, I call it knowing your limits.
Dog walking? For years I walked my dogs just a few metres up and down the road either side of my front door. I often couldn't even do that and I couldn't cross the road. Who cares what the neighbours think. Your actions have nothing to do with them. Live your life to please you, you do not have to account yourself to anyone. Your dog doesn't care how far he goes, he just likes to go out the door and sniff the lamp post.
Also stop using all that energy worrying about the future, about things that will not happen as you are tackling your anxieties. Worrying about the future stops you from enjoying today. Use that energy on recovery and put it into your partner and children. Enjoy today and feel proud of yourself for all you achieve every day.

robinhall

14-03-13, 21:44

I just hope I can get strength and be able to go into shops and not panic. I am reading the work books with the CBT 4 panic course and they say to let the panic happen, and not panic at the symptoms just accept them. I know they can't hurt me, I said yesterday to myself it was just adrenaline but the violent shaking wouldn't stop, nor would my heart calm down, so how can I ever relax when that happens, if it happens again:blush: that is my concern that this course won't help me because that violent shaking does terrify me even though I know it is just a panic symptom, it feel so awful and I fear I may collapse, it is so horrible feeling like that.

Hi
You are doing well even considering going towards the fear - we all know how scary that is.

Can I try to clarify that 'acceptance' and 'letting the panic happen' are part of what you PRACTICE doing when panic strikes - because resisting and fighting the symptoms leads to an increase in adrenaline and more symptoms.

But remember this takes time and you may not see any changes right away.

Understandably most people think this practice should make the panic stop - but in the early stages the fear of the sensations is still very strong and usually overrides anythinh we think or do.

Like any discipline - it takes time to see results. If you had a fear of swimming or water you may still for a long time feel very frightened every time you got into the water - but if you kept practicing every day you can imagine that over time your fear would become less.

and this is why very gradual exposure is best. If you just jumped in at the deep end every time your fear may stay the same but if you built it up gradually - paddling, going up to your waist, sitting down, using arm bands and so on you would grow more and more confident that you weren't actually going to drown and that swimming was a real possibility.

So - try to see practice as 'inching' forwards. Remind yourself that the practice isn't about stopping the panic (which is a subtle form of resistance anyway and can make you more anxious) it's about ATTEMPTING to chip away at the absolute belief that something catastrophic is happening

and afterwards even if you FELT that you made no progress write up your panic diary. You said "the violent shaking wouldn't stop, nor would my heart calm down" but the reality is that the shaking DID stop and your heart DID calm down - even if you may have had to escape whatever situation you were in the symptoms DO die down - so that can give you more evidence that it doesn't last forever. Eventually you can discover this in the midst of trigger situations - but very gradually.

You can also go over your thoughts "I fear I may collapse" - "my concern that this course won't help me" - "how can I ever relax when that happens" and any more you can remember and restructure them as best you can to more helpful thoughts

ie I fear I may collapse but I didn't and I haven't..
I have only been studying the course for a few days so I can keep reading and see what happens
Even though I feel I can never relax when that happens the sensations do eventually die down and now that I have a new understanding and some new coping skills if I keep practicing then I may get better at coping with the feelings
etc

Keep reading over the books
Remember that you are 'practicing' new ways to respond to fight of flight symptoms - this will take time - this practice isn't about stopping the panic - it's about gradually CHANGING how you react with thoughts and behaviour so that you can break into the cycle of fear.
It's not about FORCING yourself to 'accept' or 'let it happen' - that can make you anxious - like when we 'try' to go to sleep we feel more awake.
it's about gently trying the new skills and even accepting that it's really NOT easy to accept :-)
Give yourself a pat on the back - you have been through a lot - you are extremely brave in having to face this every day
Take your time

and can I say that this thread has been filled with some really great advice from everyone.

Robin

fishman65

14-03-13, 21:56

Many thanks to all who replied.I didn't go in,I had psyched myself up to do it but was secretly glad when my wife said she didn't need me to come in.So I sat in the car,its been a long time since I did that but hey,I've been here before and I survived.

Flossie,thank you for your kind words.I was feeling pretty anxious and was looking for reassurance from people who really KNOW how I'm feeling.

Pearl,I know just how you feel about feeling sad.It is strange how some days we think 'I just can't keep battling this'.And yet on other days we feel a sense of achievement in even the smallest victories.Try to keep your chin up,you are among people here who know your pain.

Bonnibelle

14-03-13, 22:41

Thank you so much Robin.

I think yesterday really upset me, I find it very hard to accept that I've agoraphobia:( its a living nightmare.

I'm hoping as I progress through the course I will improve and learn some valuable skills.

I do try to keep going out, I fear that if I stay in I won't go out again after yesterday. I know I didn't do much today but its better than hiding in the house all day.

One day I just hope I can not fear the shakes, it is those that scare me and I can't see me ever accepting that and not feeling worried about it happening. I've a gp appointment Monday, not even sure I can do that now:(

little wren

15-03-13, 08:54

Alabasterlyn

15-03-13, 09:40

Hi guys

How do you guys deal with anticipatory anxiety?

I worry that because it went so well yesterday i won't be able to do it today - I've set the bar too high on my first attempt if that makes sense. I write my worries down - but then what - do I just do it regardless of how I am feeling at the time. The thing is I know I am a 'scientist' and if I go and come back ok then I have disproved the worries, but if I am overly anxious does that mean they have been supported?

Is anyone worried they may become conditioned into panicking at certain things?

little wrenxxxxxxxxxxxx

ps sorry for being nosey but pinktel and flossie how long have you been practising cbt? I read through all the posts on this thread last night and you both seem very informed.

I think one of the hardest thing with recovery from agoraphobia is this constant "testing" ourselves rather than "practicing". Every Saturday morning my OH and I go to our local Tesco Extra and it really is huge. I know I should be using it to practice but in the back of my mind I also see that I am testing myself. Some days I can get right to the far corner of the store with no anxiety and now that's the bar I have set, even if I try hard to not to. So on a day when I can only get 3/4 of the way round the store I am really hard on myself afterwards.

little wren

15-03-13, 09:54

Thanks Lyn...I can see you understand...reading your post made me realize I am still testing myself. I think when I had cbt seven years ago the psychologist would say 'but you know you can do this as you've done it before'. I have to remember I will have good days and bad days and not to beat myself up about it.

Bonnibelle

15-03-13, 10:49

I test myself constantly, if I panic in a shop, I will beat myself up, hate myself even, go home and cry but then a few hours later I will tackle a smaller shop to test how I react. I feel like life is one big long test right now. Because I see it as testing I of course feel anxious before leaving the house, on the way in my car and then when I go into the shop my heart is racing so of course the anxiety symptoms kick in.

robinhall

15-03-13, 11:16

This is the reason CBT uses the term 'behavioural experiments'

when we 'test' ourselves we think in terms of success or failure - all or nothing - good or bad and so on

but when we 'experiment' we are just gathering information that we hope will help us move forward and most people accept that 'experimentation' will involve some negative results

as Thomas Edison said "Results? Why, man, I have gotten lots of results! If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is often a step forward...."

Treat beating yourself up in the same way you are trying to deal with the panic

As soon as you realise you are doing it - remember it isn't helpful
Then accept that you are doing it - that's ok - it's not your fault
dont beat yourself up for beating yourself up ;-)
observe the thought process - let it happen but step back from it slightly
remember this is a common thing that people with anxiety do
write the thoughts down and then restructure them based on what you are learning about anxiety
Then read over the workbooks and particularly book 3 which explains how to conduct graduated exposure that won't involve 'testing' yourself.

flossie

15-03-13, 12:19

Hi little wren. My postings come from my own personal experience more than a CBT approach. I was housebound for 20 years and started to go out 6 years ago when we got our new puppy. I took part in a CBT group course with No Panic last summer and have just started Robins CBT4panic.
Many of my comments may not necessarily fit in with the CBT therapy but I am just relating how I manage my fear of the anxiety and panic. I am by no means 'cured.' In fact, most of you do much more than I do. I still have the same fears but I am gradually learning that I can do the things that I thought I couldn't and that I can trust myself to manage and cope with the anxiety.

Accept that the anticipated anxiety is part of the condition. We have programmed ourselves for this to be a part of the routine for preparing to go out. It is just another part of the cycle that needs to broken down. As you keep practising accepting the anxiety and giving it less and less importance the anticipated anxiety will naturally lessen. You will no longer fear going out so there will be nothing to worry about. Be patient, the worst thing you can do is constantly check if todays anxiety is better or worse than yesterdays. This way you keep focusing on how you are feeling which in itself will make you anxious. Each day is different for everyone regardless of whether they have anxiety issues or not. Some days are brilliant others difficult. If you have a day when nothing seems to go well for you do not become despondent, it doesn't mean that you are losing all the progress you have gained. It is just a bad day, everyone has them. In much the same way that we over react to the anxiety and blow it out of proportion we also do the same when we have a rotten day and convince ourselves that we can't go to a particular place again.

Don't worry if you can't do what you did yesterday. Worrying about it is putting pressure on yourself and makes sure that you are guaranteed to become anxious to the point where you cannot even face going anywhere near. Relax into it. Take pleasure in what yesterday brought you and think 'I really would like to do that again. I don't know if I can do all of it but I can go back and do as much as I can manage for today. I can manage a small amount of anxiety but I won't push myself to the point of a full panic attack as I know from past experience that this would cause me to lose confidence in ever going back again. I know that I can choose to quietly walk away when I feel I have had enough. If I don't go as far as before that is OK, just going again and doing a little bit still makes me a winner because I am practising and learning to work through the anxiety.' Smile while you are thinking it. Smile when you think about going out. Start to turn the fear into thoughts of having an adventure. You are going out anyway so you can be out, anxious and miserable or out, anxious and happy because you are working toward better things.

Stop expecting to be able to do it all every day. You will become too tired to think straight and that is when the anxiety will kick in hard and make life difficult for you. Make sure you give yourself permission to take a break from worrying about going out. Staying home for a day or two will not mean that you won't be able to go out again. Every now and again I get really tired and decide to give myself a weeks holiday. It isn't long before I get bored and end up going out more than I would normally have. It is like I have given myself the OK not to get uptight about not going out. I am more relaxed so am not putting the pressure on myself. As we struggle with anxiety going out is such hard work and tiring it sometimes becomes a bit of a chore that we need to take a rest from. It is OK not to go out every day.
Going out, no matter for how long or how far, makes it a good day.

sorry it's a bit jumbled, I type as if I was speaking to you.

---------- Post added at 12:19 ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 ----------

I test myself constantly, if I panic in a shop, I will beat myself up, hate myself even, go home and cry but then a few hours later I will tackle a smaller shop to test how I react. I feel like life is one big long test right now. Because I see it as testing I of course feel anxious before leaving the house, on the way in my car and then when I go into the shop my heart is racing so of course the anxiety symptoms kick in.

You are pushing yourself too hard Pearl. You do not have to go into the shop.
Start by just going to stand outside the shop. Accept all the feelings you experience. Listen to the traffic, the birds, the chatter. None of it harms you.
Accept the anxiety if it comes. You have felt it all before and know that when it has done its thing you will still be OK. That is all they are, feelings. Know why they happen because you have read Robins work. Then quietly walk away and go home. That's it. When you become comfortable with that then you can do the same standing just inside the door. Do not pressure yourself to go and buy anything, your reason for being there is to just practise, to learn that if the anxiety comes you will manage. Recovery is made in little steps. By going into all these shops and frightening yourself you are continually reinforcing the negative experiences. Then you constantly berate yourself and become more unhappy. Who does your weekly shop? Can you work it so that you have enough groceries to last for all next week? That way you will have no pressure on you to go in any shop at all for a whole week. (Don't worry that you will not be able to go into a shop again, it will be OK) During the week you can then practise being at the shop because you want to. You can stand outside, go in, wander round, come out, go back in or to another shop, whatever you like. Don't rush it, just amble quietly, you are in no hurry as you aren't buying and you do not need to go to the till. Take in the atmosphere and know that you can walk out anytime you choose.
Recovery comes slowly. It will take as long as it takes. The more you push at it the harder it will be. Stop pushing yourself to be able to do it. Pushing isn't working. Take a step back, think about how you keep trying to do all these things and how you feel it keeps going wrong. Accept that as it isn't working you could maybe try another way.

Bonnibelle

15-03-13, 14:24

Thank you Flossie,

I get Asda to deliver. I go to a shop daily like a small corner one to force myself/test that I can still do it, to prove a point. I take the children to the shop after school for a treat a few times a week, again as a test:blush: Maybe I am pushing myself too hard, but I think to myself I am in all day being a housewife, I should go somewhere.

Hi little wren. My postings come from my own personal experience more than a CBT approach. I was housebound for 20 years and started to go out 6 years ago when we got our new puppy. I took part in a CBT group course with No Panic last summer and have just started Robins CBT4panic.
Many of my comments may not necessarily fit in with the CBT therapy but I am just relating how I manage my fear of the anxiety and panic. I am by no means 'cured.' In fact, most of you do much more than I do. I still have the same fears but I am gradually learning that I can do the things that I thought I couldn't and that I can trust myself to manage and cope with the anxiety.

Accept that the anticipated anxiety is part of the condition. We have programmed ourselves for this to be a part of the routine for preparing to go out. It is just another part of the cycle that needs to broken down. As you keep practising accepting the anxiety and giving it less and less importance the anticipated anxiety will naturally lessen. You will no longer fear going out so there will be nothing to worry about. Be patient, the worst thing you can do is constantly check if todays anxiety is better or worse than yesterdays. This way you keep focusing on how you are feeling which in itself will make you anxious. Each day is different for everyone regardless of whether they have anxiety issues or not. Some days are brilliant others difficult. If you have a day when nothing seems to go well for you do not become despondent, it doesn't mean that you are losing all the progress you have gained. It is just a bad day, everyone has them. In much the same way that we over react to the anxiety and blow it out of proportion we also do the same when we have a rotten day and convince ourselves that we can't go to a particular place again.

Don't worry if you can't do what you did yesterday. Worrying about it is putting pressure on yourself and makes sure that you are guaranteed to become anxious to the point where you cannot even face going anywhere near. Relax into it. Take pleasure in what yesterday brought you and think 'I really would like to do that again. I don't know if I can do all of it but I can go back and do as much as I can manage for today. I can manage a small amount of anxiety but I won't push myself to the point of a full panic attack as I know from past experience that this would cause me to lose confidence in ever going back again. I know that I can choose to quietly walk away when I feel I have had enough. If I don't go as far as before that is OK, just going again and doing a little bit still makes me a winner because I am practising and learning to work through the anxiety.' Smile while you are thinking it. Smile when you think about going out. Start to turn the fear into thoughts of having an adventure. You are going out anyway so you can be out, anxious and miserable or out, anxious and happy because you are working toward better things.

Stop expecting to be able to do it all every day. You will become too tired to think straight and that is when the anxiety will kick in hard and make life difficult for you. Make sure you give yourself permission to take a break from worrying about going out. Staying home for a day or two will not mean that you won't be able to go out again. Every now and again I get really tired and decide to give myself a weeks holiday. It isn't long before I get bored and end up going out more than I would normally have. It is like I have given myself the OK not to get uptight about not going out. I am more relaxed so am not putting the pressure on myself. As we struggle with anxiety going out is such hard work and tiring it sometimes becomes a bit of a chore that we need to take a rest from. It is OK not to go out every day.
Going out, no matter for how long or how far, makes it a good day.

sorry it's a bit jumbled, I type as if I was speaking to you.

---------- Post added at 12:19 ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 ----------

You are pushing yourself too hard Pearl. You do not have to go into the shop.
Start by just going to stand outside the shop. Accept all the feelings you experience. Listen to the traffic, the birds, the chatter. None of it harms you.
Accept the anxiety if it comes. You have felt it all before and know that when it has done its thing you will still be OK. That is all they are, feelings. Know why they happen because you have read Robins work. Then quietly walk away and go home. That's it. When you become comfortable with that then you can do the same standing just inside the door. Do not pressure yourself to go and buy anything, your reason for being there is to just practise, to learn that if the anxiety comes you will manage. Recovery is made in little steps. By going into all these shops and frightening yourself you are continually reinforcing the negative experiences. Then you constantly berate yourself and become more unhappy. Who does your weekly shop? Can you work it so that you have enough groceries to last for all next week? That way you will have no pressure on you to go in any shop at all for a whole week. (Don't worry that you will not be able to go into a shop again, it will be OK) During the week you can then practise being at the shop because you want to. You can stand outside, go in, wander round, come out, go back in or to another shop, whatever you like. Don't rush it, just amble quietly, you are in no hurry as you aren't buying and you do not need to go to the till. Take in the atmosphere and know that you can walk out anytime you choose.
Recovery comes slowly. It will take as long as it takes. The more you push at it the harder it will be. Stop pushing yourself to be able to do it. Pushing isn't working. Take a step back, think about how you keep trying to do all these things and how you feel it keeps going wrong. Accept that as it isn't working you could maybe try another way.

flossie

15-03-13, 15:18

I get Asda to deliver. I go to a shop daily like a small corner one to force myself/test that I can still do it, to prove a point. I take the children to the shop after school for a treat a few times a week, again as a test:blush: Maybe I am pushing myself too hard, but I think to myself I am in all day being a housewife, I should go somewhere.

Go back and read Robins response to your earlier post. He gave some very important advice.

Recovery starts with accepting that you are how you are right now. Right now you have agoraphobia. You will make no progress until you accept that. Agoraphobia is not a living nightmare (taken from an earlier post you made) the way you respond to it dictates whether it is a nightmare or not.
Stop testing yourself, stop fighting and forcing. You are bullying yourself and it isn't achieving anything.
You do go somewhere. You take the children to school and collect them each day. Work on that right now and taking the dog to the lamp post. Once you have learned the skills to be more comfortable doing this then you can think of going to the shops.

Pinktel

15-03-13, 16:17

fishman65

15-03-13, 20:21

I think one of the hardest thing with recovery from agoraphobia is this constant "testing" ourselves rather than "practicing". Every Saturday morning my OH and I go to our local Tesco Extra and it really is huge. I know I should be using it to practice but in the back of my mind I also see that I am testing myself. Some days I can get right to the far corner of the store with no anxiety and now that's the bar I have set, even if I try hard to not to. So on a day when I can only get 3/4 of the way round the store I am really hard on myself afterwards.Oh wow I can relate to this Lyn.I did it only today.I had done some housework,my wife had gone to bed (chronic fatigue syndrome amongst other illnesses) and I was reading the paper thinking 'what if someone comes to the door?Will I be ok with them?'etc etc.So,I jumped in the car and went to the local shop,even though we didn't really need anything.I was just trying to exorcise that agoraphobic mind-set,plus test myself into the bargain.I did it ok,but what do we do to eradicate the agoraphobia? Sometimes I think I have to take a chair and my newspaper and sit out in the street reading it?? :ohmy:

Bonnibelle

16-03-13, 07:54

Yesterday I managed to go for a drive a few miles from my house. I always drive to this town to get my take out Costa but since Tesco I'm too anxious to go and do it now, lost alot if confidence even in my safe places. Driving I felt anxious in my car the further I got from home but I kept going. I drove for 45 minutes just round town, the next town then back home. My friend then called for a cuppa and a chat, I told her how I feel at the moment, she understands alot. I'm usually anxious about people in my house but she stayed 3 hours.

After I got the children from school I went to town, got money from the cash point then to thd local Sainsburys for some treats for the kids and me. I even talked to the man at checkout. When I walked back to the car my daughter gave me high 5, oh bless her it nearly made me cry.

I've just woken up for the second morning running with heavy breathing and anxiety feeling. Tesco has triggered this because I wake every day worrying about my life.

I know I always look at the negatives instead of what I've managed to try and do.

little wren

16-03-13, 08:35

Its ok pearl I really don't mind people posting on my thread :) All I'm doing is trying to take the most relevant posts for me from here and put them on my thread so I have instant access to them when I am stuck. I will probably convert them to word eventually and print them off.

You are doing so well - I wish you could see that. You seem so determined not to lose any of your hard earned ground - you still make the trip in the car even though it is not easy for you. Well done for not allowing your life to shrink any more.

A lot of what you say I can relate to. I read the cbt4panic and I think 'have I really understood it? What am I doing wrong? Why is it so damn hard?!!!' xxxxxlittlewrenxxxxxxx

Bonnibelle

16-03-13, 09:18

I think you do really well Little Wren, walking the dogs is a huge achievement, even I struggle doing that so well done to you.

Sorry I wrote on the wrong thread, I got confused.

---------- Post added at 09:18 ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 ----------

I've cried all morning because the last 2 mornings I've woken up with anxiety racing around me and that's in the house:(( its horrible. I feel even at home I'm not relaxed.

I have the gp Monday but my husband can't get time off to come with me so I can't face it alone with the children incase I panic.

I'm just worried if I'm feeling anxious inside even at home like I am today my gp will suggest medication again and I'm not sure I want that again:(

Pinktel

16-03-13, 09:34

Pearl I have had anxious days in my own home more times than I can remember! Yes it is horrid but it all goes eventually. Remember that, you WILL have good days again it is just impossible to imagine that when you feel as you do.

My gp has wanted me to try meds for years, I never have :blush: rightly or wrongly I can't cope with the feeling of not knowing whether what I feel is down to me or not. It's your choice, nobody else's.

This CBT is a gradual drip feeding of altered ideas. It takes time. And I think actually in the first few weeks of starting I got worse before I saw improvements because it was a time of admitting I had the problem, no more avoiding or hiding, I was having to face it, which was a bit overwhelming if I am honest. I think this is where you are at the moment, but know and understand it will not last and the anxiety in your home will fade if nothing else because you cannot escape your home, you will be proving to yourself that panic in your home is not to be feared as you emerge each time unscathed.

little wren

16-03-13, 09:36

flossie -

I am really pleased to hear you have been getting out the last 6 years after 20 years of being housebound. Something inside saying 'enough' I'm going out...I love your description (a different post) of no-one having bricked up the front door - we are free to leave whenever we choose. Knowing that we have the choice - not anxiety - is liberating.

When I feel low about the exposure I just remember what you say about a dog is happy even sniffing the nearest lamppost. If I can enjoy any of the exposure then it will be by letting go of testing and pushing and fighting for every inch made. There is a nice saying by Morris West 'If you wait your whole life waiting for the storm you never enjoy the sunshine'. I am allowing myself to take any bit of joy I can from being out. Try and change the way I see things. A few posts on here have spoken of regaining that naivety - I look at my pup and he brings me joy in that he is living that naivety of life being fresh and new and an adventure to be relished not necessarily feared.

It is about the total package - cbt is a part of it (a massive part for me) but I also aim to use mindfulness later on (as the dvd says so I don't use it to hide from the anxiety). I am a firm believer that deep down we all know what we need and cbt is like being shown a way through this which is based in empirical evidence, but other helpful strategies are added to it along the way.

If agoraphobia is a learned behaviour it can be replaced by a more productive behaviour.
little wren xx

Bonnibelle

16-03-13, 09:48

Before Christmas I gave in as the anxiety racing around my body 24/7 even at home was horrible. I'm allergic to ssri meds so agreed to go on Dosulepin, a tryciclic anti depressant for anxiety as I'd taken it for a year 9 years ago, again for anxiety. It worked well but after 6 weeks I woke in the night with a racing heart:( Dosulepin isn't usually prescribed these days as it can cause heart problems so my gp took me off it. I do miss how much better my anxiety was, and it helped me to start going out again but the anxiety of being on them was too much. After 3 weeks of feeling better I went really odd on them,, I had intrusive thoughts and I felt suicidle one day:( I didn't tell anyone then one day I broke down to my gp as the intrusive thoughts were horrific, I was so ashamed, I thought he would take my children away:( I'm crying now just typing this, I adore my children, they're my world.

My gp thought maybe the meds and isolation made me feel worse, then the racing heart one night which required an ambulance out to me, it was best to come off them. Coming off abruptly was hell and I've vowed never to go back on medication. Today though I'm shallow breathing, ears ringing and adrenaline racing round my body, I feel horrible:( I'm starting Kalms again and I use rescue remedy.

I know I need to accept this is me for now, I will get better but I need to stop being so hard on myself, I beat myself up daily about this. It's not my fault, I've suffered a trauma, it's my brothers doing, my families too for turning their backs on me. I feel such anger inside towards them for doing this to me but I'm not an angry person, wouldn't hurt a fly, I just cry alot:( I think I'm mostly hurt by my mum right now, she said she wouldn't turn her back on me, she knew my brother and sisters were in the wrong but she's all for them, she never calls or visits to see how I am and she knows I'm struggling:((( but she's never been a loving mum so why do I expect her to be one now. I have to let go, my husband said she makes me feel worse rejecting me.

It hurts so much. My brother attacked me! He accused me of calling social services, which I didn't. He bullied me over it all last year, then my nan died in July and I was with her all the day before watching her die, then 2 months later my brother attacked me and my family turned on me because he was arrested:( I've been to hell and back. I'm a good person, I've a lovely husband, 3 beautiful children, my dogs, my cats, nice home... I've a good life, it just makes me so sad I'm struggling:(

Sorry I've rambled on and taken over here again. I've just nowhere to turn.

Pearl I have had anxious days in my own home more times than I can remember! Yes it is horrid but it all goes eventually. Remember that, you WILL have good days again it is just impossible to imagine that when you feel as you do.

My gp has wanted me to try meds for years, I never have :blush: rightly or wrongly I can't cope with the feeling of not knowing whether what I feel is down to me or not. It's your choice, nobody else's.

This CBT is a gradual drip feeding of altered ideas. It takes time. And I think actually in the first few weeks of starting I got worse before I saw improvements because it was a time of admitting I had the problem, no more avoiding or hiding, I was having to face it, which was a bit overwhelming if I am honest. I think this is where you are at the moment, but know and understand it will not last and the anxiety in your home will fade if nothing else because you cannot escape your home, you will be proving to yourself that panic in your home is not to be feared as you emerge each time unscathed.

Bonnibelle

16-03-13, 14:28

Also can I ask, do any of you take medication for agoraphobia and panic disorder? if you don't can I ask why? I don't take any medication.

Pinktel

16-03-13, 15:01

Have pm'd you, but most people on here probably know my views on them for pure neuroses.

little wren

16-03-13, 17:38

Little wren - I'm not sure that I am "dealing" with anticipatory anxiety as such in that all I really do is acknowledge it for what it is, catch myself when I am dwelling on things and winding myself up, and try to rationalise what I am feeling and remind myself what effect it will have on me. I am awful for painting extremely vivid pictures in my mind's eye of exactly how bad things may turn out! I am very imaginative!

I ordered the CBT4panic in january but bear in mind I have had 20 years plus of self help books, NHS run CBT attempts, private CBT and reading all I could to help myself.

Not sure why the CBT didn't work for me up until this point but something clicked with me about this particular course. I thought I knew everything there was to know about the mechanism of fight or flight. And in a way I did! I don't think CBT4panic has told me much information I didn't already know (well perhaps a few things) but it was the WAY in which it was presented and explained that struck a chord this time. I don't think I had fully understood the mechanisms involved before - plus I was refusing to accept the fact that I was actually scared of the symptoms. I kept saying - i KNOW it is just panic I am fearing, I dont really feel I am going to die. But having examined a proper panic I realised that in the actual moment of a panic I really did feel I was about to die/go mad. This gave me something to begin working on.

I also didn't want to believe that the best way forward was by having more panics! I had spent 20 years doing everything I possibly could to STOP myself having them.... why should I let go and experience them?? they were so damn horrible - all I would prove to myself by having them was that yes, they were still horrible.

But I was missing the point.

I need to get through and be spat out the other side of the panic still in the situation I would normally leave. That was the only way for my brain to really learn.

Pinktel
Your post really got to me - really made me think - I was really intrigued by you saying something just clicked which had never done before. I also know a lot about anxiety and the effects on the body, but I think perhaps I never really 'got' it either. If I had done I would not have agoraphobia now. Perhaps I was just going through the motions with nothing really sinking in beyond a superficial level. Intellectually I understood how adrenaline gives rise to bodily symptoms and how fear has taken the 'quick and dirty' pathway and it takes time for our rational mind to catch up, assess the situation and come up with reasons not to be scared. However, I never really believed that anxiety could be conquered by staying in the situation - not running - seeing it out until it reduced - seeing I was ok at the other end. Even when I did practice 'not fleeing' and the anxiety came and went it was always like 'well I survived that one...I can't bear when it is going to happen again'. I never believed it would not harm me, not that I would die or anything, but that I would somehow condition myself into having panic attacks - like the more I had the more I would have. Just hearing peoples experiences and thoughts alongside Robins dvd's has allowed me to really think about what it is that I am afraid of.

xxlittlewrenxx

robinhall

16-03-13, 18:14

Hi

Can I just say again that this thread has a lot of great insight in it :-)

And can I add something that I have mentioned on other threads. It can be very helpful to start changing the word/s 'panic' or 'panic attack' with the words 'fight or flight'

The more we say we had a 'panic attack' the more we feel that something bad has happened TO us - almost as if some external entity has 'attacked' us

But once we start to understand what is taking place and we are practicing letting go towards the anxiety we may not actually be going into 'panic' so the word is no longer accurate

It is more accurate and more helpful to say "I am experiencing (frightening) fight or flight sensations"

This reminds you that the sensations are simply a result of an increase in adrenaline and although they may FEEL terrifying, ultimately we are not in the danger that we imagine ourselves to be in.

It can also help remind us that how we respond to the fight or flight sensations will have an effect on how long they hang around - so, rather than some outside entity attacking us - it is we who unwittingly trigger MORE fight or flight

Try this next time you feel the sensations arise - rather than "Oh no I'm going to have a panic attack" - say to yourself "ok I can feel some fight or flight sensations coming up" and then you can use your cognitive and behavioural skills after that point

Try to get used to using fight or flight (or fight, fight or freeze) in place of panic and see what happens.

Robin

flossie

16-03-13, 18:39

Thank you for your input Robin. I am finding it interesting and extremely helpful.

Bonnibelle

16-03-13, 20:01

Thank you Robin.

My problem is that my panic attack in tesco on Wednesday was so severe I really can't get over it and I'm terrified of going out now. I know the symptoms didn't hurt me and can't if they happen again but I tried to control them and it just wouldn't stop. The pounding heart led to the worst shakes I have ever experienced:( so this ha s set me back an awful lot, I thought I was bad before, it's far worse now and I can't see me not worrying about the attack I had Wednesday.

I've had shakes before with anxiety but nothing that severe. I'm terrified of it happening again:(

I wanted to walk my dogs this weekend in the woods behind me, I managed it fine 2 weeks ago with my husband and children, I loved it. Now I can't even imagine doing it without feeling panicky at the thought. It makes me so sad. I had started doing things recently and I was really happy, now my agoraphobia is worse than ever.

I used to worry about feeling panicky in a shop, feeling lightheaded, racing hear, weak limbs... But I could cope, if I felt too dizzy I'd leave hubby to go to the till and I'd walk calmly to my car, but usually I stuck it out recently. Now I'd do anything to have those symptoms back, not this awful shaking I had Wednesday:(

Can adrenaline really make you shake that bad? Everyone saw:( my heart was pounding out of my chest. I knew it was anxiety, but worse than I've ever experienced in my life. It's scared me so much I'm stuck in the house today:/

Pinktel

16-03-13, 20:21

Here's another tip from the CBT if you doubt it IS the adrenaline giving you the shakes (which I DON'T doubt by the way because it's one of the MOST common symptoms of fear) ... Then ask yourself what else could it be?

What else can cause uncontrollable pounding heart and shaking, but then stop?

Dr google and health anxiety has taught me well over the years :D:D but even I would struggle to come up with a serious contender for you regarding what else delivers symptoms like that, which then go away.

robinhall

16-03-13, 21:01

Hi Pearl

Trust me I know exactly what you are feeling - I was virtually a prisoner of my own house for about 3 years and had severe panic attacks regularly throughout the day even at home. I reckon I have had every symptom you could mention.

What Pinktel has replied is very important

It is a very useful observation that when we are in a trigger situation we get the extreme reaction - then we escape and it calms down - then we go back to the trigger situation and get more or less the same symptom - then we escape and it dies down again. If we observe this again and again we can see that our fear ABOUT the situation is clearly increasing our anxiety and the fight or flight sensations.

I remember trying to walk 100 yards to my local shop and feeling overwhelmed about half way there with fear and extreme pain in my legs - I was convinced that I just wouldn't be able to go on - but when I turned to go home I usually got there pretty quickly. I also remember that I could walk up and down stairs without pain but as soon as I stepped outside I could barely move one foot in front of the other.

so - yes - anxiety can appear as very extreme bodily symptoms and 'uncontrollable pounding heart and shaking' is the symptom that most people report so it is extremely common - you are not alone with that.

I also had many 'setbacks' which I felt were too extreme and I would never be able to try going out again. All I can say is that that too is a very common and understandable reaction to setbacks. Give yourself a few days then read over the material again without worrying about doing exposure.

Fill in some more worksheets - the panic diary and panic sequence profile and write down some of your thoughts and see if you can restructure them. For now make study and learning the coping skills your first priority. After a while you will again feel ready to try to put everything into practice and then it is important to study workbook 3 very carefully. If you break everything down into manageable steps you will get back on track.

And please consider the Interoceptive Exposure practice - I know it can seem a bit daft but it can be very very helpful especially because you can do exposure to the feared bodily sensations in a totally controlled way at home.

If you need any help on this PM me.

Robin

Bonnibelle

16-03-13, 22:11

Thank you.

I knew it was panic but shaking so bad was really frightening at just how intense it was.

Why couldn't I control it and stop it? I told myself its just anxiety, adrenaline, it can't hurt me, yet the shaking got worse. How I stayed at the till I don't know:(
Here's another tip from the CBT if you doubt it IS the adrenaline giving you the shakes (which I DON'T doubt by the way because it's one of the MOST common symptoms of fear) ... Then ask yourself what else could it be?

What else can cause uncontrollable pounding heart and shaking, but then stop?

Dr google and health anxiety has taught me well over the years :D:D but even I would struggle to come up with a serious contender for you regarding what else delivers symptoms like that, which then go away.

---------- Post added at 22:11 ---------- Previous post was at 21:45 ----------

Thank you Robin.

Yesterday I managed a small shop with my children, I drive alone for 45 minutes, went to the car wash... So I've managed a few things without the shakes kicking in but a racing heart a little at times.

I guess it's normal after an attack to feel low for a few days as you're disappointed it happened. I've been beating myself up ever since thinking I should never have home and pushed myself that day.!

I'm still on the second workbook, find it a great, I just worry what if it can't ever make me feel relaxed about my symptoms. I doubt I'd ever feel comfortable feeling that shaking:(

Thanks for your emails and help on here, it's been so helpful.
Hi Pearl

Trust me I know exactly what you are feeling - I was virtually a prisoner of my own house for about 3 years and had severe panic attacks regularly throughout the day even at home. I reckon I have had every symptom you could mention.

What Pinktel has replied is very important

It is a very useful observation that when we are in a trigger situation we get the extreme reaction - then we escape and it calms down - then we go back to the trigger situation and get more or less the same symptom - then we escape and it dies down again. If we observe this again and again we can see that our fear ABOUT the situation is clearly increasing our anxiety and the fight or flight sensations.

I remember trying to walk 100 yards to my local shop and feeling overwhelmed about half way there with fear and extreme pain in my legs - I was convinced that I just wouldn't be able to go on - but when I turned to go home I usually got there pretty quickly. I also remember that I could walk up and down stairs without pain but as soon as I stepped outside I could barely move one foot in front of the other.

so - yes - anxiety can appear as very extreme bodily symptoms and 'uncontrollable pounding heart and shaking' is the symptom that most people report so it is extremely common - you are not alone with that.

I also had many 'setbacks' which I felt were too extreme and I would never be able to try going out again. All I can say is that that too is a very common and understandable reaction to setbacks. Give yourself a few days then read over the material again without worrying about doing exposure.

Fill in some more worksheets - the panic diary and panic sequence profile and write down some of your thoughts and see if you can restructure them. For now make study and learning the coping skills your first priority. After a while you will again feel ready to try to put everything into practice and then it is important to study workbook 3 very carefully. If you break everything down into manageable steps you will get back on track.

And please consider the Interoceptive Exposure practice - I know it can seem a bit daft but it can be very very helpful especially because you can do exposure to the feared bodily sensations in a totally controlled way at home.

If you need any help on this PM me.

Robin

robinhall

16-03-13, 23:37

Hi Pearl

A very important sentence you said is "Why couldn't I control it and stop it?"

This is the area where the problem arises and where it gets maintained

go through book 1 over and over until you catch a glimpse that when we desperately try to control it and stop it (by either fighting, resisting OR even using coping strategies) that we ever so subtly send out more fear signals and so our body responds with more adrenaline and the fight or flight response is again activated

I know this seems like an impossible puzzle but this is important to understand

That is why I use the analogy of stirring a pond with a stick. What would be the best way to stop the pond getting churned up? Would it help if we tried to control the stirring - maybe by stirring in reverse or putting our hands in? No - that would keep it going - the quickest way would be to take out the stick and stop stirring - in other words do NOTHING - and the pond will just eventually return to stillness

so too with the adrenaline - if you try to control or stop it you send out subtle fear signals which the body picks up on

so what you are trying to do is stop reacting with so much fear, stop fighting it, stop trying to control it and even stop trying desperately to relax or make it stop

this is why the word acceptance is used - let go towards it - do nothing - let it happen - let it 'do it's thing' - it will have a certain amount of momentum and will then die down as we add less fear

but this is NOT easy - so we must also try to accept that this takes much practice and for a while it will seem like it doesnt help at all

but over time we learn all our little subtle saftey behaviours and resistances and we modify our reaction each time

eventually most people reach the point where they say "right - go ahead - it's just adrenaline - do your worst" - and then they understand acceptance. But even then it will be 3 steps forwards and 2 steps backwards

Keep at it - you will get it

Robin

Bonnibelle

17-03-13, 06:55

Thank you Robin.

I really tried:( Thst day in Tesco when it started, I felt my fast heart st first but I carried on, I got tehe 3 things I needed but by the time I got to the till my heart was racing and I was violently shaking. I knew it was panic but I told myself it was panic, adrenaline, do I did try to use the methods I'm learning but if anything the shaking got much worse. I think that's why I feel frightened. I can't face experiencing that violent shaking again.

I've barely slept, my daughter has a bad ear, she has a doctors appointment Monday aswell as mine and I can't face taking her, I feel like a terrible mother. She really needs to go but I can't do it. I'd started going to appointments with my husband for support, but the last two I've gone alone with my children and managed despite being anxious. Now I just can't do it, I feel I can't even with my husband so I'm going to cancel mine and ask my husband if he can take our daughter. I hope he can get half an hour out of work to help her.

I've woken so much in the night feeling anxious, worrying I can't take her, feeling guilty. I feel sick this morning about it. I'm so upset a week ago I could do quite a few things, had been going to small shops again, costa takeout, doctors, hairdresser to my house, walk dogs by my house but now I feel I'm back to where I was after the massive panic attack I had in a shop in November that stopped me going out.

Pinktel

17-03-13, 07:51

Pearl you are going round and round in a little circle beating yourself up about having the panic.

"I really tried..."

don't doubt you did but you had only just downloaded the CBT hadn't you? Or had you even really started it? Do you think it is as simple as reading it once and then skipping off out the door without a backward glance? It is going to take you weeks/months or baby steps. It doesn't just fall into your lap. The hard work starts now.

"I did try to use the methods I'm learning.."
I would find it hard to think that in that short space of time you had managed to process and put into practice ANY methods. Just telling yourself it was fight or flight is NEVER going to do it for you, if it was that easy none of us would be on this website. There are a whole host of subtle thoughts and coping strategies you need to start working on, I don't think you could possibly have come to terms with them all yet.

"I feel like a terrible mother"
You are not. You love your children, that is why you have decided to seek help for your condition. Guilt like this is going to serve no purpose at all, you have built yourself a lovely family which is hard in this day and age and you are to be congratulated on that. You need every scrap of self confidence to help you with the tasks ahead so give yourself a break and make this a bit easier on yourself!

"she really needs to go but I can't do it"
You can do it you are just choosing not to. At the moment you have assessed the facts and decided that it is too big a step. You are currently going to choose something lower down on your fear hierarchy as your starting point.

Finally here is a question for you.
When you were actively going out and doing things like getting a take out from costa, going to little shops etc, they all sound like you were visiting in a very prescribed way, ie, why didn't you stay in costa for your coffee, why visit just small shops etc. sounds like you were just managing to do these things rather than doing them without a care in the world or a second thought. In which case you were just hoping for the best and doing them. What if there had been a massive queue in costa, would you have waited in it? Adding between the lines I think you have just been managing things as best you can but always with a low level of anticipatory anxiety and a greater level of avoidance of certain places.

Until you can drive to a small shop, not caring if you have fight or flight symptoms or not, walking into the small shop taking your time in it, daydreaming your way round, chatting to whoever, all the while not giving a hoot if you shake, have a racing heart etc. until that moment is reached then you know you have still got work to do.

I have been doing this CBT since January. Yes I am improved, undoubtedly, but do I think I have it cracked? No I don't, but I am working my way through the workbooks and watching the videos and little by little trying to change my attitudes. These changes are NOT easily gained. But are they possible? Absolutely.

Many people give up on CBT. Either the practitioner is rubbish, or they don't practice between sessions, or they don't take the time to read and inwardly digest the subtle questions being asked of us.

Even people like Robin who wrote the blinking course :D. are telling you he had times in his recovery where he felt he wasn't getting anywhere! 3steps forward 2steps back etc. it requires a major mental overhaul and a vast dollop of bravery (and we probably all feel a bit low in our bravery reserves).

But remember that what you have is emmenently treatable.

Every journey starts with a step and you have taken your first one by admitting things aren't right and reading the workbooks. Now you are going to begin restructuring you thoughts, do analysis sheets until you are bored of them, complete your fear hierarchy. They are there for a reason.

QUOTE=Pearl35;1134360]Thank you Robin.

I really tried:( Thst day in Tesco when it started, I felt my fast heart st first but I carried on, I got tehe 3 things I needed but by the time I got to the till my heart was racing and I was violently shaking. I knew it was panic but I told myself it was panic, adrenaline, do I did try to use the methods I'm learning but if anything the shaking got much worse. I think that's why I feel frightened. I can't face experiencing that violent shaking again.

I've barely slept, my daughter has a bad ear, she has a doctors appointment Monday aswell as mine and I can't face taking her, I feel like a terrible mother. She really needs to go but I can't do it. I'd started going to appointments with my husband for support, but the last two I've gone alone with my children and managed despite being anxious. Now I just can't do it, I feel I can't even with my husband so I'm going to cancel mine and ask my husband if he can take our daughter. I hope he can get half an hour out of work to help her.

I've woken so much in the night feeling anxious, worrying I can't take her, feeling guilty. I feel sick this morning about it. I'm so upset a week ago I could do quite a few things, had been going to small shops again, costa takeout, doctors, hairdresser to my house, walk dogs by my house but now I feel I'm back to where I was after the massive panic attack I had in a shop in November that stopped me going out.[/QUOTE]

flossie

17-03-13, 08:22

You can do these things Pearl. It is just that right now you have pushed and pushed yourself to the point of mental exhaustion. This is why we have been telling you to take a step back. It happens to all of us. As you progress you will learn to recognise when you need to have a break to recharge your batteries.
It doesn't matter what you could do 2 years ago or 2 months ago or 2 days ago. Yesterday doesn't matter. Today matters. Right now, this minute. Right now you are exhausted. You have so many 'problems' churning your brain into mash that you cannot think straight. You need to let them go, you cannot change the past. What you can do is accept how things are right now and how you are going to deal with them. Being agoraphobic does't make you a bad person in any way. Would you regard someone who has asthma or diabetes as a bad person? No, of course you wouldn't, and it is the same for us. Our agoraphobia is just another problem that we have to learn to overcome.

Being a good mum is definitely not determined by whether you can go out with the children or not. There are many mums who for many reasons are not able do that. Going out is only a tiny part that makes up a mum. My own mum was very poorly when I was young and she was confined to bed for a time. She was a mum who needed rest and looking after. I would come home from school, climb on the bed with her and we would talk with me snuggled in her arms. Then when she could get up but not out we would play games and do crafts and things together. My mum wasn't able to take me out but she was a brilliant mum.
Stop beating yourself up about the kids, they will cope. They can see for themselves that you are tired and need rest and will be only too willing to help if you let them. In fact they will learn a valuable lesson, to understand mental health problems can happen to any of us, to be tolerant of others and to care. Let them help you as well as you caring for them.

Stop trying. Stop fighting. Accept.

Bonnibelle

17-03-13, 08:41

Thank you Pinktel, I am being far too hard on myself and I need to stop. I'm expecting to be the old me, the mum I was and you're right I should be proud of my family and stop thinking I am a failure.

Yes that is true, I wasn't completely comfortable, I'd go to places still rushing to get out, never took my time, I still found it hard but seemed to avoid a full loan panic until Tesco this week, this had been me sine january, I was managing small things but never feeling totally a ease. I stayed in costa once, I was on my meds then and felt calmer. There was a que in costa a couple of weeks back, I stayed in it but after 5 minutes had to walk out, go to my car for a breather but I got out, went back in and did it once the que had gone down, don't think I could even walk in there now

I'm just finding it very hard to accept, and I guess deep down very angry my brother has done this to me yet he can still go out, he's not agoraphobic.

Pearl you are going round and round in a little circle beating yourself up about having the panic.

"I really tried..."

don't doubt you did but you had only just downloaded the CBT hadn't you? Or had you even really started it? Do you think it is as simple as reading it once and then skipping off out the door without a backward glance? It is going to take you weeks/months or baby steps. It doesn't just fall into your lap. The hard work starts now.

"I did try to use the methods I'm learning.."
I would find it hard to think that in that short space of time you had managed to process and put into practice ANY methods. Just telling yourself it was fight or flight is NEVER going to do it for you, if it was that easy none of us would be on this website. There are a whole host of subtle thoughts and coping strategies you need to start working on, I don't think you could possibly have come to terms with them all yet.

"I feel like a terrible mother"
You are not. You love your children, that is why you have decided to seek help for your condition. Guilt like this is going to serve no purpose at all, you have built yourself a lovely family which is hard in this day and age and you are to be congratulated on that. You need every scrap of self confidence to help you with the tasks ahead so give yourself a break and make this a bit easier on yourself!

"she really needs to go but I can't do it"
You can do it you are just choosing not to. At the moment you have assessed the facts and decided that it is too big a step. You are currently going to choose something lower down on your fear hierarchy as your starting point.

Finally here is a question for you.
When you were actively going out and doing things like getting a take out from costa, going to little shops etc, they all sound like you were visiting in a very prescribed way, ie, why didn't you stay in costa for your coffee, why visit just small shops etc. sounds like you were just managing to do these things rather than doing them without a care in the world or a second thought. In which case you were just hoping for the best and doing them. What if there had been a massive queue in costa, would you have waited in it? Adding between the lines I think you have just been managing things as best you can but always with a low level of anticipatory anxiety and a greater level of avoidance of certain places.

Until you can drive to a small shop, not caring if you have fight or flight symptoms or not, walking into the small shop taking your time in it, daydreaming your way round, chatting to whoever, all the while not giving a hoot if you shake, have a racing heart etc. until that moment is reached then you know you have still got work to do.

I have been doing this CBT since January. Yes I am improved, undoubtedly, but do I think I have it cracked? No I don't, but I am working my way through the workbooks and watching the videos and little by little trying to change my attitudes. These changes are NOT easily gained. But are they possible? Absolutely.

Many people give up on CBT. Either the practitioner is rubbish, or they don't practice between sessions, or they don't take the time to read and inwardly digest the subtle questions being asked of us.

Even people like Robin who wrote the blinking course :D. are telling you he had times in his recovery where he felt he wasn't getting anywhere! 3steps forward 2steps back etc. it requires a major mental overhaul and a vast dollop of bravery (and we probably all feel a bit low in our bravery reserves).

But remember that what you have is emmenently treatable.

Every journey starts with a step and you have taken your first one by admitting things aren't right and reading the workbooks. Now you are going to begin restructuring you thoughts, do analysis sheets until you are bored of them, complete your fear hierarchy. They are there for a reason.

QUOTE=Pearl35;1134360]Thank you Robin.

I really tried:( Thst day in Tesco when it started, I felt my fast heart st first but I carried on, I got tehe 3 things I needed but by the time I got to the till my heart was racing and I was violently shaking. I knew it was panic but I told myself it was panic, adrenaline, do I did try to use the methods I'm learning but if anything the shaking got much worse. I think that's why I feel frightened. I can't face experiencing that violent shaking again.

I've barely slept, my daughter has a bad ear, she has a doctors appointment Monday aswell as mine and I can't face taking her, I feel like a terrible mother. She really needs to go but I can't do it. I'd started going to appointments with my husband for support, but the last two I've gone alone with my children and managed despite being anxious. Now I just can't do it, I feel I can't even with my husband so I'm going to cancel mine and ask my husband if he can take our daughter. I hope he can get half an hour out of work to help her.

I've woken so much in the night feeling anxious, worrying I can't take her, feeling guilty. I feel sick this morning about it. I'm so upset a week ago I could do quite a few things, had been going to small shops again, costa takeout, doctors, hairdresser to my house, walk dogs by my house but now I feel I'm back to where I was after the massive panic attack I had in a shop in November that stopped me going out.[/QUOTE]

---------- Post added at 08:41 ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 ----------

Thank you Flossie,

i beat myself up far too much and I think it's because I want my children to have the best life, because I look back a my childhood and cry, I didn't feel loved,I still don't now by my parents. I guess im angry my ex brother a family have hurt me so much I'm liked this. I suffering from PTSD and its s hard when the NHS can't help me as they've no spaces for therapy right now, it could be a year!

I didn't go out yesterday, I accepted it better, I shouldn't keep forcing myself.. I drove to asda, my husband went in with the children, I admit it made me very sad sat in the at alone, watching people in and out if the shop knowing I just couldn't go in. My children came back to the car, and my daughter, she's 7, to.d me to close my eyes and hold out my hands. She handed me abox of Creme eggs, galaxy bar and some other chocolates. She had spent her £3 she had saved up and spent it all on me. I started crying, my children are so thoughtful and just want to make me happy. She told me she loved me and she wanted to treat me because I'm good mummy. It made my world, I've such beautiful, kind hearted children.

:D
QUOTE=flossie;1134373]You can do these things Pearl. It is just that right now you have pushed and pushed yourself to the point of mental exhaustion. This is why we have been telling you to take a step back. It happens to all of us. As you progress you will learn to recognise when you need to have a break to recharge your batteries.
It doesn't matter what you could do 2 years ago or 2 months ago or 2 days ago. Yesterday doesn't matter. Today matters. Right now, this minute. Right now you are exhausted. You have so many 'problems' churning your brain into mash that you cannot think straight. You need to let them go, you cannot change the past. What you can do is accept how things are right now and how you are going to deal with them. Being agoraphobic does't make you a bad person in any way. Would you regard someone who has asthma or diabetes as a bad person? No, of course you wouldn't, and it is the same for us. Our agoraphobia is just another problem that we have to learn to overcome.

Being a good mum is definitely not determined by whether you can go out with the children or not. There are many mums who for many reasons are not able do that. Going out is only a tiny part that makes up a mum. My own mum was very poorly when I was young and she was confined to bed for a time. She was a mum who needed rest and looking after. I would come home from school, climb on the bed with her and we would talk with me snuggled in her arms. Then when she could get up but not out we would play games and do crafts and things together. My mum wasn't able to take me out but she was a brilliant mum.
Stop beating yourself up about the kids, they will cope. They can see for themselves that you are tired and need rest and will be only too willing to help if you let them. In fact they will learn a valuable lesson, to understand mental health problems can happen to any of us, to be tolerant of others and to care. Let them help you as well as you caring for them.

Stop trying. Stop fighting. Accept.[/QUOTE]

flossie

17-03-13, 09:20

Pearl. I understand to a small extent how you feeling about your family.
My father married a violent woman. When the time came that she had me pinned against a wall with her fist in my face, fortunately my neighbour stopped her, I knew that it was up to me to determine how I wanted to be treated. My father and she both knew that if anything like it happened again there would be consequences. I cannot tell you how hard it was to know that my elderly, fragile father was living with a woman who used violence to get her way but I had to accept that it was his decision to live like that. I could not understand it, did not agree with it nor like it, but to have a relationship with this woman was his decision.
I chose to walk away. Maybe some would think me a bad daughter to leave him but it was the hardest thing to do. Nobody, absolutely nobody, deserves to be threatened with violence. It is even harder when the person who is violent is a family member, someone you should be able to turn to for protection.
The only person who should be taking responsibily for your brothers bevaviour is your brother. Do not feel any guilt for informing the police. You did the right thing. If he hadn't hit you then there would have been no need to do so in the first place. He needs to take responsibilty.
Stay firm with your belief that violence is wrong, that you will not tolerate it from anyone, including family. It is difficult to believe this now but they will respect you for it in the end.

little wren

17-03-13, 09:23

[COLOR="blue"]

My children came back to the car, and my daughter, she's 7, to.d me to close my eyes and hold out my hands. She handed me abox of Creme eggs, galaxy bar and some other chocolates. She had spent her £3 she had saved up and spent it all on me. I started crying, my children are so thoughtful and just want to make me happy. She told me she loved me and she wanted to treat me because I'm good mummy. It made my world, I've such beautiful, kind hearted children.

.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Pearl that is so sweet :)

Bonnibelle

17-03-13, 10:35

Flossie, you did the right thing, you couldn't keep subjecting yourself to such violence, it really does have a huge imoact on us, sometimes when we least expect it.

I never thought from my brothers accusations and bullying last year, I'd have ended up this unwell but my GP post traumatic stress hits us hard eventually.

I am dedicating my week to the course, I'm going to work hard. I will take the children to school, maybe try small shop for sweets if I can, just so that I'm not staying in altogether, as that makes it harder to go out when you do try. I'm determined to beat this, I'm not letting my violent brother and family destroy my world. I'm 33, this isn't forever.

Pearl. I understand to a small extent how you feeling about your family.
My father married a violent woman. When the time came that she had me pinned against a wall with her fist in my face, fortunately my neighbour stopped her, I knew that it was up to me to determine how I wanted to be treated. My father and she both knew that if anything like it happened again there would be consequences. I cannot tell you how hard it was to know that my elderly, fragile father was living with a woman who used violence to get her way but I had to accept that it was his decision to live like that. I could not understand it, did not agree with it nor like it, but to have a relationship with this woman was his decision.
I chose to walk away. Maybe some would think me a bad daughter to leave him but it was the hardest thing to do. Nobody, absolutely nobody, deserves to be threatened with violence. It is even harder when the person who is violent is a family member, someone you should be able to turn to for protection.
The only person who should be taking responsibily for your brothers bevaviour is your brother. Do not feel any guilt for informing the police. You did the right thing. If he hadn't hit you then there would have been no need to do so in the first place. He needs to take responsibilty.
Stay firm with your belief that violence is wrong, that you will not tolerate it from anyone, including family. It is difficult to believe this now but they will respect you for it in the end.

---------- Post added at 10:35 ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 ----------

[COLOR="blue"]

My children came back to the car, and my daughter, she's 7, to.d me to close my eyes and hold out my hands. She handed me abox of Creme eggs, galaxy bar and some other chocolates. She had spent her £3 she had saved up and spent it all on me. I started crying, my children are so thoughtful and just want to make me happy. She told me she loved me and she wanted to treat me because I'm good mummy. It made my world, I've such beautiful, kind hearted children.

.[/QUOTE]

Pearl that is so sweet :)[/QUOTE]

Thank you a little Wren. They've hearts of gold, they are what keep me going that's for sure x

Alabasterlyn

17-03-13, 12:05

I can't remember if I already mentioned on this thread that I had been waiting since last December for a referral for some counselling. I had to visit my GP last week for a medication review and asked him why I hadn't heard anything. It would seem that despite having filled in all the paperwork my referral never got to the mental health team.

Anyway my GP said he would get the mental health team to contact me and I had a phone call from them yesterday. They went over all the same questions that I had filled in at the GP's and at the end of it said they would offer me some CBT. I told them I'd tried it 3 times and had got nowhere and that the last 2 times the therapist wasn't able to take me out as they weren't insured to use their cars with patients. I was then informed "oh we will just have to go walking then". Honestly I was really disappointed as I'm done with doing things that I don't want to do, selfish as that sounds.

I have done really well in the last year with walking the dogs with my OH and can easily walk around the block which is about a mile but I can't do it on my own and I really don't want to go with a complete stranger in the middle of the day when it's busy as we live on a main road and all the heavy traffic really grates on my nerves at the best of times which is why we walk the dogs when it's very early or when it's late and the traffic has calmed down.

Right now I feel so depressed that I had hoped to have some talking counselling to bring my mood up enough to be able to tackle the anxiety, but obviously that isn't going to happen.

Sorry for the rant :blush:

fishman65

17-03-13, 16:57

Pearl,you're no more a bad mother than I'm a bad father.Just wanted to say that,I'll leave the CBT to the other guys here who have more experience of it.I'm struggling right now too,but hang in there :hugs:

MargaretHale

17-03-13, 20:29

Hi all,
someone pointed me in the direction of this thread a few weeks ago and I only just caught up with it.
I've been suffering for ag. for over two years. It started with a panic attack due (I think ) to an aura migraine. I worked in a stressful jpb and my new boss hated me. Instead of going on sick (silly I know) I actually left my job. A job I'd done well for 8 years. I was very good at it but she was a bully and I let her make me feel like a nothing. I guess it wasn't all her.
I've piled weight on and had some friends (ha) who liked to point it out..I started going to the gym a while before my panic attack. I was doing so well and eating healthily then when someone at a party said 'wow, you're looking well' I said 'Thanks, I've been going to the gym' and a 'friend' stopped everyone and said 'ha ha, listen to this...she's been going to the gym!' and everyone laughed. I have gone from being an outgoing, happy confident person to this nervy, jumpy insecure..unhappy person.

I try to get out. I've tried cbt and read the books by clare weeks but no joy. Battling on, but going through a rough patch

mh xx

Bonnibelle

17-03-13, 20:40

Sorry you're all struggling, there's great support here. It's early days of this condition for me, 4/5 months and I'm still not sure how to manage it. I'm sure you'll get lots of advice and support like I have.

Good luck x

---------- Post added at 20:40 ---------- Previous post was at 20:39 ----------

Thank you Fishman xx
Pearl,you're no more a bad mother than I'm a bad father.Just wanted to say that,I'll leave the CBT to the other guys here who have more experience of it.I'm struggling right now too,but hang in there :hugs:

Bonnibelle

18-03-13, 10:46

Can I ask, if any of you need to see a GP what do you do, do you go to the surgery or will your GP call to see you?

I had an appointment today at 3.50, and my daughter at 4. I have had it booked a while but after my set back last week I really can't face it so I have cancelled mine and my husband is taking our daughter to hers.

I have re booked to see my GP in 3 weeks time, hoping then I will feel much stronger to go. This morning though I have been in tears, feeling so doom and gloom, worrying if I am depressed, do I want to carry on.... of course I don't want to end my life, I don't think like that but I just feel so frustrated and angry inside because of the isolation. I have 3 children, I don't want to feel like this. I'm not on any medication after the last one I tried earlier this year gave me a racing heart in the night so my GP took me off it just incase as Dosulepin can affect the hearts rhythym. It wasn't nice stopping it either, I felt dreadful and never do I want to go through that again.

Maybe I am just thinking too much being stuck at home but I am suffering with PTSD after the attack, now agoraphobia and panic disorder so the isolation is making it all much worse. I also in January had intrusive thoughts which my GP wondered if they were also caused by the Dosulepin but I still battle them too, which he said could also be the PTSD and isolation.

If I want to see my GP do you think he will do a house call if I really feel I can't go to him right now? I am too afraid to ask. Before Christmas I was in a state, I needed to see my GP but couldn't leave the house, he came out to me but I felt terrible for asking. He was lovely and didn't seem to mind but I felt so silly. I haven't called him out since, I have gone to my appointments with my husband or alone, but now I feel back to square one and can't face it. 3 weeks seems so far away when you feel like this. I am scared of the way I am feeling today:-( Hopefully it is just lack of sleep, 3 nights now I have barely slept, and being stuck at home alone is horrible, I cry alot.

Sorry to ramble on here.

Alabasterlyn

18-03-13, 11:35

Pearl I usually go to the surgery and I think most GP's seem to insist that agoraphobia is not a reason to have a home visit, but obviously it's down to each GP's discretion and if you have already managed to get your GP to visit you at home then I really wouldn't feel bad about asking him to come out to you again if you can't get there.

I'm sorry you are feeling so down right now, have to say I can totally relate as I feel the same and it's an awful feeling so I hope things start to get better for you soon :hugs:

sandramick

18-03-13, 12:20

hi all
thought i would add a possitive note to this thread :yesyes:
i have suffered panic and anxiety for over 20 years have spent many months off and on housebound .

i can relate to everything that has been said on here supermarkets / hairdressers /doctors/ school runs/nights out /walks have been unable to do any of them .thank goodness for a lovely partner .

i was coping so much betta lately getting out on good days (still having bad ones but have learned over the years not to push myself if i dont feel i can do somethinng i dont then you dont get the feeling of failure )
had lovely little job working for a friend but hae business closed at christmas :weep:

have spent 2 months at home and the dreaded anx getting so much worse again !

last week i started a new job . it wasnt easy cryed my eyes out on the journey there on the first morning . but i did it . my new boss is lovely havent told her i have anx but told her i was very nervous she was lovely and really put me at ease :yesyes:

i am feeling so much betta about myself even managed the supermarket

it is so tireing and hard work but to keep on top of anx you have to keep on fighting it

all the advice given on this thread is so good

just to say i also thoght i had been a rubbish mum couldnt do school events go on trips out holidays etc .but i loved them to pieces and now my son is 17 goes to college my daughter is 19 and at uni they are beautiful well ajusted people leading lovely lives :hugs:

i no i will always suffer with anx and that i will get good times and bad times but i will never give up the fight

sorry not very good at explaining things but just wanted to say there is light at the end of the tunnel you just have to keep heading for it .

:flowers:sandra x

flossie

18-03-13, 13:01

Hi Pearl. My surgery does telephone consultations and I keep in contact that way. It definitely isn't as good as a face to face appointment but it may be an option.

Hi Sandra. I am pleased that you have joined us and for sharing your story.
Well done for starting the new job and going in the supermarket :yesyes:

Bonnibelle

18-03-13, 13:29

So glad things are going better for you. Nice to hear a positive story:-) xx

hi all
thought i would add a possitive note to this thread :yesyes:
i have suffered panic and anxiety for over 20 years have spent many months off and on housebound .

i can relate to everything that has been said on here supermarkets / hairdressers /doctors/ school runs/nights out /walks have been unable to do any of them .thank goodness for a lovely partner .

i was coping so much betta lately getting out on good days (still having bad ones but have learned over the years not to push myself if i dont feel i can do somethinng i dont then you dont get the feeling of failure )
had lovely little job working for a friend but hae business closed at christmas :weep:

have spent 2 months at home and the dreaded anx getting so much worse again !

last week i started a new job . it wasnt easy cryed my eyes out on the journey there on the first morning . but i did it . my new boss is lovely havent told her i have anx but told her i was very nervous she was lovely and really put me at ease :yesyes:

i am feeling so much betta about myself even managed the supermarket

it is so tireing and hard work but to keep on top of anx you have to keep on fighting it

all the advice given on this thread is so good

just to say i also thoght i had been a rubbish mum couldnt do school events go on trips out holidays etc .but i loved them to pieces and now my son is 17 goes to college my daughter is 19 and at uni they are beautiful well ajusted people leading lovely lives :hugs:

i no i will always suffer with anx and that i will get good times and bad times but i will never give up the fight

sorry not very good at explaining things but just wanted to say there is light at the end of the tunnel you just have to keep heading for it .

:flowers:sandra x

---------- Post added at 13:29 ---------- Previous post was at 13:28 ----------

Thanks Flossie. That is an option, thank you. Is that what you do instead of going to the surgery?

Hi Pearl. My surgery does telephone consultations and I keep in contact that way. It definitely isn't as good as a face to face appointment but it may be an option.

Hi Sandra. I am pleased that you have joined us and for sharing your story.
Well done for starting the new job and going in the supermarket :yesyes:

---------- Post added at 13:29 ---------- Previous post was at 13:29 ----------

Thank you, I hope things get better for us both. xx

Pearl I usually go to the surgery and I think most GP's seem to insist that agoraphobia is not a reason to have a home visit, but obviously it's down to each GP's discretion and if you have already managed to get your GP to visit you at home then I really wouldn't feel bad about asking him to come out to you again if you can't get there.

I'm sorry you are feeling so down right now, have to say I can totally relate as I feel the same and it's an awful feeling so I hope things start to get better for you soon :hugs: