View Full Version : Dangers of SSRIs
I didn't know which thread to post this in.
I've always been a big advocate of SSRI's. I believe Citalopram helped me massively over the last 11 years.
Since coming off them last year and then coming back on them due to a relapse of worsened anxiety, I have been rather concerned.
It's been 2 months back on the medication and there has not only been no improvement, but a decline. I tried to take my own life thursday night and I've been self harming. This isn't me. I was put on the meds for anxiety not depression.
I'm struggling badly with a whole host of other side effects. I can't sleep, I feel sick etc.
My biggest concern is my suicidal attitudes and deep deep depression as well as my constant non specific anxiety. I've had anxiety my entire life but never to the point where it's constant and non specific.
I also, don't feel me. When I started to relapse and have panic attacks again, I still felt like me. I no longer do. I feel numb and different.
I explained to my dad how SSRIs work this evening on youtube and when typing in how they work, I noticed A LOT of videos from a few whistleblowers who used to work for big pharma companies. This led me to some google searching and saw alot of information that shocked me. Statistics such as prozac being as effective as a sugar pill (placebo) in many many trials. Also how they tried to cover up the links between SSRI's and suicides.
I'm not against them at all and not trying to put people off the medication, but I think there is more to these drugs that people need to be told about.
I bet less than 1% of us on SSRI's are told BEFORE taking them by the GP prescribing them, that they will be difficult to come off of and also that they WILL cause very nasty side effects to start with.
I also understand that the serotonin argument is just a theory and is not fact. It's impossible to measure serotonin levels in the brain. No one can out rightly prove that Serotonin reuptake needs inhibiting. And trials show that most SSRI's are very similar results to placebos but come with a whole host of side effects.
I'm merely bringing this up because of how close I was to taking my own life the other night and how I've had non stop suicidal thoughts. I'm not blaming the drug but I feel it might be something to do with it. I'm also massively concerned that in all my life of having anxiety, I've never been this bad in all my life.
Why can doctors give out such a cheap pill to us without following us up and doing more checks and giving us more information? Without the internet, I would think there is something very wrong with me, but I only need to have a look in the SSRI section of this forum to see the nightmares people are going through, both coming on and coming off of the drug.
It's really made me rethink. I really badly want to come off Citalopram right now. I think I'd rather face anxiety armed with a clear mind and CBT along with some health supplements and some anti stress measurements in place.
I'm going to start very slowly lowering my dose and also switching to another SSRI in the meanwhile as this clearly is doing nothing for me.
This really has opened my eyes. I'm not ME right now and it's VERY scary!
Hi Steveo.... I read your blog by the way.... you are remarkable for doing that... :)
from my experience with a ssri i was put on sertraline... and it made me 100x worse with my anxiety... i was absoloutly all over the place.... for 2 weeks i stuck it out and couldnt take it anymore.... i was having awful thoughts and was so unwell.. my doc decided to try me on a snri called mirtazapine.... and it worked wonders...
That was just my experience but maybe a thought for you ??
Carls xxx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIjOZq_AUeE
---------- Post added at 21:31 ---------- Previous post was at 21:30 ----------
Yeah I'm not against them at all. Like I said, I think they did me good for 11 years.
But right now I'm in a worse place I was before starting the medication a second time round. This has caused me to really read up on everything.
Thanks so much for reading my blog Carls :) xxx
Steven,
Moved to the medication forum.
Pip
Thanks Pipkin!! I didn't know where to put it!
Please be aware I'm not trying to scare others into not taking medication!! I just don't want people to end up suicidal like I am and never have been before.
Here's a very interesting video on a mans struggle with Paxil - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuYZMW-_nII
Steven,
No, I don't think you're trying to scare people. It's made very clear in the leaflets for all SSRIs that this is a potential side effect but, I agree, I'm not sure how often GPs draw attention to it. Mine didn't though I was having very frequent reviews (at least weekly) when I was at my worst.
As with all medication, it's a balance between the potential to improve quality of life and the adverse effects. For many people on ADs, the side effects are well worth it, for others, they're not. Regardless of how they work and how large a role the placebo effect plays, there's no denying that ADs have been lifesavers for many people. You're quite right though, people need to be aware of the potential to cause suicidal ideation and should be told what to do if it happens.
Citalopram may not be working for you but I think it would definitely be worth discussing other options with your GP or the psychiatric team. Like Carly above, I took Sertraline and it nearly sent me over the edge - it was horrendous - other people say it's fantastic. I now take Venlafaxine and it's worked wonders, though I had taken it before when it first came out and it was great then too. Unfortunately, it's often a case of trial and error.
For anyone reading this and taking SSRIs or similar for the first time, don't let this frighten you as they could change your life for the better. Just be aware of the potential side effects and make sure your family and friends know what to look out for.
Pip
I'm sorry you've had such s bad experience Steven but there's one point I'd like to make. Perhaps docs dont tell us too much about SEs etc because people are so suggestible. The suicidal thoughts one is difficult though because that is something people should know. I hope you feel better soon.
SSRIs did change my life first time round, there's not doubt about that.
If I knew that this was going to happen this time round I would of rather not taken anything. I'm going through hell and have out my family through it too.
I really don't want this post to scare people off which is why I was very reluctant to post it on here.
I think I really just want to raise awareness of the potential dangers it can SOMETIMES cause.
I'm sure I'll be singing their praises once my medication has been changed!
AuntieMoosie
10-03-13, 04:42
Hello there Steven,
I do kind of understand exactly what you're saying.
I had a bad experience with Citalopram at the end of last year when they had to reduce my dose because of the heart scare with being on 60mgs.
They didn't even wean me off slowly, I was told to got straight from 60mgs to 40!!
I ended up with SSRI withdrawal syndrome and it was hell believe me.
I ended up having quite a heated debate with my GP about the effects of SSRI's, and I questioned him then as to were they addictive in any way, he told me definitely no, they weren't. But I have to say that I still have my suspicions, I just don't understand how coming off them would cause me to feel so unwell if they weren't addictive in some way or another??
Please anyone reading this, don't be frightened, I'm not into the frightening game and you have to remember that this is my experience, and what I'm saying about the addictiveness, is my opinion, it isn't fact, it's just what I'm worried about.
Something that has had me worrying for quite sometime now is what exactly causes those "brain zaps"??? I know lots and lots of people get them too and it's only with the SSRI's. Now, my doctor contradicted himself a bit when I asked him what causes them and are they doing damage to the brain, his answer was "they don't really know what causes them" but "they're not harmful"........that doesn't make sense to me.......how can they say they're not harmful when they don't even know what's causing them????
Steven I'm now on 2 different SSRI's. They have left me on 20mgs of Citalopram and have put me on 100mgs of Sertraline. I don't even know it that's right??
I have to say on a positive note, that I have found Sertraline to be a lot more helpful with my anxiety than I ever found Citalopram was, so, in a way, I'm glad I was switched.
The one thing I have found when trying to discuss these things with doctors, is that they really don't like giving you a lot of answers, I kind of picked up that they are somewhat scared to tell you a lot??? they seem to skirt around the subject and that, in itself, worries me.
Steven I hope you can get some relief from your anxiety, I know it's an absolute pig to live with, it can make you feel so utterly ill and detached. I hope you find something that can help you and bring you relief.
Hang in there, it will get better Steven, you just need to discover what helps you and what doesn't.
Sending you my best wishes.
Once again everyone, the fact that we're discussing this does not mean there is any need for alarm. We are just discussing our experiences that's all. So please DO NOT EVER STOP TAKING YOUR MEDICATION without your doctors advice and guidance. This is just a discussion that's all :hugs: :hugs:
For anyone that's been on a high dose of Citalopram I've been on the refined version escitalopram (lexapro) for 12 months and its been a god send. If you are struggling in Cipramil get off it and try lexapro.. I know it's alot more expensive over there though?
Steveo
I am drawn to this part of your post.
My biggest concern is my suicidal attitudes and deep deep depression as well as my constant non specific anxiety. I've had anxiety my entire life but never to the point where it's constant and non specific
but firstly I admire you for being so frank in your post.
I am no doctor but though many people will argue that severe anxiety leads to depression it is not always the case but to have suicidal attitudes is something that you must address.
Googling can make one even more anxious and some professional medical sites will list all the side effects of every anti depressant and they vary from saying they are generally quite tolerable and then give a whole list of side effects and that includes having suicidal thoughts.
No two people react the same to any one drug and there are a mutitude of reasons for that including age, if one is taking any other form of medication as well for totally different condition, or simpy the side effects outweigh the original diagonis and one just can't carry on taking them.
I believe SSRI drugs are the most commonly drugs prescribed these days and they all work basically in the same way but with small deviations.
They help a lot of people but only mask the problem though in some cases they help the initial problem, people feel better,come off them as instructed by their doctors only to relapse some time later.Others acccept that one pill a day for an unspecified period of time gives the person a better quality of life which I always gauge from 0 to 10 .
I won't talk too much about myself but just to say I have been prescribed nearly every SSRi feasable and before that MAORI's and have had mangeable times and times when I am practically housebound with real physical side effects 24/7 and the side effects of any SSRI are horrendous for me.
I can't personally link extreme anxiety with suicidal thoughts but with deep depression I can.
I believe you really need to go back to your doctor or better still a psychiatrist and talk everything through, and if you are not satisfied with what they suggest try and find another specialist in this field who you can realate to, as this is so important.
Hi mate,
I've been thinking about this a lot ever since my last chat with my GP. He told me that I shouldn't be too keen to stay on ssri's as we don't know the long-term effects yet. He says they've been shown to effect how the brain forms memory. I did some google-ing and found a good piece:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/antidepressants-long-term-depression_b_1077185.html
It's so confusing :(
xxx
I do strongly Echo Auntie Moosie here in which I am really not trying to scare anyone against taking SSRI's! They truly help so so many people. This thread post is more intended for those of us who have been on them for a while etc.
Last March, my girlfriends brother died after a very long battle with alcoholism. He had been very unwell for much of his adult life. My girlfriend was obviously ruined, as any sister would be.
She took some time off to grieve and got herself slowly better over 4 months until she was ready to go back to work. She's a primary school teacher so she has to be very happy and positive and to me, she is the most positive person ever. She's amazing.
She comes from wales which is where I met her but couldn't get a job there so had to work in London and live there but comes home every other weekend to see me and her family. One weekend she came home last November time, and her parents were getting rid of all of her brothers items. A lot of memories there with hit my girlfriend very hard. She was too upset to go back to London as she hadn't properly got over her loss. She decided to take a few weeks off to continue to grieve back at her family home. She needed a doctors note this time around. She went to her doctors and obviously she was upset and in tears and just explained she lost her brother back in March and that she's still finding it slightly painful and needs a few more weeks so needs a doctors note.
Without saying anything he said 'I think what we'll do is put you on some anti depressants and give you some diazapam just for a short while'. She said 'NO!'
I'm so so happy she said no. There is nothing wrong with my girlfriend. She lost her incredible brother. She is grieving. The doctor didn't explain SSRI's to her OR diazapam.
To me, that doctor should be struck off. Attitudes towards SSRI's and patients NEEDS to change. My girlfriend could quite easily now be having withdrawal issues due to the diazapam (Which I'm having now after only 4 weeks, and told I was perfectly safe to stop at any time) and she could of reacted terribly to SSRI's. She wasn't offered counselling or anything else, surely because that costs the NHS money. Citalopram costs pennies which is why it's the first line of drug. Same with Prozac for depression.
I used to be on Escitalopram when I first started an SSRI when I was 17 and I don't remember any issues coming on the drug. I was switched back in 2007 and wasn't told why. I've now discovered an NHS document explaining that despite the benefits of escitalopram, it costs £30 compared to 44p for Citalopram so patients now have to be changed over.
We are not even being given the best treatment options. We are not being closely monitered and I think MOST GP's are not educated enough on the dangers of SSRI's.
I can honestly tell you, if it wasn't for my dad, I would of died on Thursday night. I wouldn't be here typing now. I've never suffered depression to this level, and I've never suffered anxiety to this level after having it over 23 years. Yes a level of my depression is caused by how bad and crippling my anxiety is, but to want to kill myself.... that's just not me. I've got some terrible terrible cuts on me right now. I mutilated myself with a stanley knife.
These drugs have done something to me. Citalopram, the drug that worked so well for me before, has changed me.
On another note, Diazapam, which I was told was safe to keep taking, is also causing me big problems. I've taking it for almost 4 weeks now and only through a few people on here telling me, I need to taper off slowly. I was told I could come straight off by the GP's. 2mg now no longer does anything for me. Yet another chemical in my brain messing me up!
I honestly feel non human right now! I'm so so scared that there are these chemicals in my head, taking over my emotions and increasing my anxiety and depression and I can't just STOP taking them!
We all know SSRI's cause SSRI withdrawal. We are NEVER told that when we start taking them!
Something needs to be done. Maybe we could get a petition going to try and change the way that we are just given SSRI's as a first line of treatment? We need proper educating on the good and bad sides of them, we need telling that they MIGHT not work, we need CONSTANT monitering on the medication but most importantly we need counselling as a first line of treatment. I used to LOVE the NHS and be so so proud of it. It made me so proud to live in a country of free health care. That was until I was a nurse. I can't believe the cost cutting measures there are. Patients are not being given the best treatments available or the best medications. I've seen drug reps at work! I've been taken out to LAVISH lunches and given many freebies by drug reps as they try and push their drug and treatment to our surgery. They are more pushy that broadband suppliers!!
I'm sorry for my very long rant. I feel I've got alot of my chest right now. I just feel I need to tell someone how I feel. I'm not one of those anti medication people at all! I love medication. But something needs to be done about SSRI's. This post wouldn't exist if my dad hadn't of found me on Thursday night.
Thanks for reading this.
I feel your emotion steveo, but it's a sweeping statement to say a doctor shold be struck off for prescribing SSRi and diazapam to your sister for a short time.It is not uncommon in a case such as bereavement for a doctor to do as this doctor has done.
You may be sensitive to diazapam but speaking as a long time user taking 2mg once or twice a day for 4 weeks shouldn't give you major withdrawl symptoms.
I feel you really need some expert advise and quickly, to help you and to fully explain any anti depressant that is given to you and if after a week or so you feel they are giving you side effects that you feel you can't cope with,tell the doctor and together reassess the situation.
I think GP's need more training in dealing with anxiety disorders. I've seen 3 GP's over the last 4 weeks (because I have the flu, needed a sick note and I'm coming off meds) and each one has gave me different advice. The first said I should switch to citalopram from zoloft, the 2nd said I should try pregabalin and the 3rd said I shouldn't take SSRI's at all because my problems are psychological (he didn't offer any therapy) and SSRI's are dangerous. What to do?!
I had truely awful withdrawal from zoloft - the night terrors were unbearable and I became scared of random objects (like the charm on my necklace). I'm now stuck on a low dose just because I can't come off them. The only option I have that gives me some hope is to pay for a private psychiatrist to get some expert advice on meds - which I really can't afford. It's so confusing, I just wish there was some reliable guidance.
The only option I have that gives me some hope is to pay for a private psychiatrist to get some expert advice on meds - which I really can't afford. It's so confusing, I just wish there was some reliable guidance.
Now this is my personal experience but that won't help too much either. I paid £240 to see a CONSULTANT psychiatrist. The 'top dog'!
I saw him in his house. I sat across a long posh dining table while he spent the entire time scribbling notes and not looking at me. I was clearly in distress and fighting back tears. He just kept saying 'yeah yeah yeah' as if I'm telling him something he's heard so many times before that to me, it's not effecting my life.
He said 'well this is a clear case of just upping your Citalopram to 30mg and starting Pregabalin for a month and keep taking Diazapam. If I hadn't spent 20 minutes asking questions then it would of been a 20minute appointment.
Now the Pregabalin made me WORSE because I explained my worse problem was depersonalisation so he put me on a medication with the main side effect being 'feeling spacey or drunk'. Tried it for 2 weeks and came STRAIGHT off it. It took me 3 days to be able to call him again to explain that I'm no better and he said 'well just stop Pregabalin and up to 40mg Citalopram'. He told me on the day of seeing him that I would be back to normal in 2 weeks. This was on the 16th of Feb.
My dad was so happy at this news that he cried. I started my new medication regime with such a positive attitude despite not feeling any different for weeks.
Now this isn't the case with every psychiatrist. My mum saw one in Surrey and she said he was so kind and caring and spent so much time with her.
I would of rather spent £240 donating to this website.
Psychiatrists etc are a terrible mixed bag. My last contact with the MH services was with a nurse who was truly fantastic, better than some of the psychologists/iatrists I've seen. If I had wanted to see a psychiatrist on that occasion I'd have waited a year. Sadly I don't think things are going to improve
---------- Post added at 13:38 ---------- Previous post was at 13:32 ----------
On the ssri issue, I think It's worth pointing out withdrawal problems aren't a given. I cold turkeyed off Prozac once when I became pregnant and had no trouble at all.
Wishing you a good day Steven.
Steven,
I don't think anyone on here is trying to scare people. Everyone who's commented has experience of ADs and what's really obvious is how we're all different. No matter what, we need to be aware of potential side effects.
Regarding first-line treatment for anxiety being SSRIs, the NICE guidance is quite clear that this shouldn't be the case. From memory, I think they are third line and, even then, it is upto the patient to make the decision based on all the information being made available. I know my GP follows this to the letter but many don't.
The NICE guidance also states benzos should only be prescribed for crises and only for a maximum of (if I remember correctly) 2 weeks. Only when I've been at my absolute worst have GPs suggested short-term use of diazepam but have suggested beta blockers as preferable. I've always heeded this advice and have never taken diazepam. For me, beta blockers completely calm me down but I do recognise that benzos have their place for short-term crisis situations.
There are some interesting viewpoints here and I think everyone is being fair and balanced in their comments.
Pip
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/antidepressants-long-term-depression_b_1077185.html
This article has shocked me the most.
This could very well explain why I've been on SSRI's since I was 17 for 11 years, and then came off after feeling fine for YEARS, and then now at a point where I can't get through the day. I have NEVER been this bad in my entire life, EVER.
I honestly believe that the 11 years of taking SSRI's whilst my brain was still developing, has damaged my brain somehow or the process of serotonin has compensated as it says in the article.
More and more and more is coming out of the woodwork about the dangers of SSRI's and they are a fairly newISH drug so we don't really know the long term side effects. I also don't know anyone who has constantly been on an SSRI for 11 years.
I know most GP's now will not give Antidepressants to people under the age of 24. My doctor advised me of this when I took my son to see him as he suffers with anxiety. This is due to the fact that the brain of a teenager/young adult is still in the developmental stage and also because of the suicide risks associated with taking AD's at such a young age.
I'm glad that your son was declined SSRI's because of his age.
I was happily put on the medication at 17. My brain has now developed to require the SSRI mechanism.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/antidepressants-long-term-depression_b_1077185.html
This article has shocked me the most.
This could very well explain why I've been on SSRI's since I was 17 for 11 years, and then came off after feeling fine for YEARS, and then now at a point where I can't get through the day. I have NEVER been this bad in my entire life, EVER.
I honestly believe that the 11 years of taking SSRI's whilst my brain was still developing, has damaged my brain somehow or the process of serotonin has compensated as it says in the article.
More and more and more is coming out of the woodwork about the dangers of SSRI's and they are a fairly newISH drug so we don't really know the long term side effects. I also don't know anyone who has constantly been on an SSRI for 11 years.
I think that you raise some very valid points Steven. I can totally relate the the anger that you are feeling after your experiences. Your anger is also very valid. I am concerned about it's impact on your current mood, so as a friend, I would advise you to use the information you are raising constructively in your meeting tomorrow to discuss the best treatment options for you. Please call me if you need to talk / vent :)
However, as a patient, you do have rights including the right to challenge proposed treatment options for you.
A GP has less than 1 weeks specialist mental health training out of the 7 years they train. The practice of automatically prescribing diazepam alongside SSRI start up is a relatively new and poor practice which was very much frowned upon when I started practising as a mental health social worker in the late 90's when a high proportion of my work was supporting a lot of people addicted to long term benzodiazepine use to withdraw from long term addiction in the absence of any rehab programmes or resources.
This practice is very much resource and time led and not at all in the best interest of the patient. In my experience, personal and professional, diazepam is still over prescribed for long term use without adequate supervision causing addiction to prescription medication with no recourse to rehabilitation.
I have known benzodiazepines to be prescribed to known recreational drug users and alcoholics and those with a known history of addiction and those with a history of suicidal ideation and attempts. I consider this bad practice and negligent at best and possible grounds for malpractice.
I refused to use mine as a result of my awareness of the hazards of this drug and potential for addiction. I explained this to my GP and advised her that as a smoker I have an addictive personality and was in a vulnerable position at that time. She prescribed them anyway.
I also take issue with the fact that any crisis, is more often than not, responded to by a GP upping the dose of medication or suggesting the start up of SSRI's. When we suffer a bereavement or crisis it is a perfectly natural response to feel awful. Why medicate these feelings? A little support and space to grieve is often all that is needed and essential to develop coping strategies for future use. A referral to counselling would be much more beneficial, but the lack of counselling resources often means that medication is offered as a 'quick fix'.
Like with any treatment, mental health and GP services are very much a postcode lottery and vary hugely. There are some amazing practitioners and some truly poor practitioners. The treatment received should not vary so greatly or be based on something as arbitrary as a postcode. Unfortunately this continues to be the case.
I believe that there is a place for SSRI medication. But I also believe that the patients in receipt of this treatment have a right to make informed choices which they cannot do in the absence of valid information on their treatment, which includes side effects and resources to support such episodes.
Good luck with your meeting tomorrow, Steven. Let me know how you get on :hugs:
Thanks Cat. Unfortunately I'm not part of the meeting. It's done on my behalf from the assessment that 2 mental health nurses made when they came over the other night so I'm unable to speak to the psychiatrist but if there is anything I'm not happy about then I'll demand to see him or at the very least speak to him via phone.
I also failed my mention my current diazapam problem so I need to call early tomorrow before their meeting!
x
Thanks Cat. Unfortunately I'm not part of the meeting. It's done on my behalf from the assessment that 2 mental health nurses made when they came over the other night so I'm unable to speak to the psychiatrist but if there is anything I'm not happy about then I'll demand to see him or at the very least speak to him via phone.
I also failed my mention my current diazapam problem so I need to call early tomorrow before their meeting!
x
Yes, do update them on your diazepam use and make sure that they have the full facts to assess appropriate future treatment. Keep us posted on the outcome of this meeting, Steven.
You have made significant progress in the last few days and got things moving in terms of re-assessing your current treatment. Things are on the up for you :yesyes: Just think about how you were feeling this time last week.
I see that your feisty side is re emerging and you are fighting your corner, which is great! Just balance your reading and fighting your corner with a little you time and self care. It's all about balance, like we spoke about - something that I have to consciously be aware of and practice for ongoing progress! Not easy at times but you do reap the benefits :yesyes:
You have a lot of support here to encourage your continued progress.
Enjoy the remainder of your weekend :)
Cat x
Serenitie
it appears that I seem to take issue with some part of each of your posts and though you started practising as a mental health social worker in the late 90's for you to say that A GP has less than 1 weeks specialist mental health training out of the 7 years they train is totally incorrect, how do I know because my uncle is a practising GP., and attends refresher courses every year in England.
Then you go on to say When we suffer a bereavement or crisis it is a perfectly natural response to feel awful. Why medicate these feelings? A little support and space to grieve is often all that is needed and essential to develop coping strategies for future use. A referral to counselling would be much more beneficial, but the lack of counselling resources often means that medication is offered as a 'quick fix'.
I am sure your attentions are honourable but no two cases are the same and personally speaking when I suffered bereavement of both of my parents within 3 years no amount of counsilling would have helped at the time.
Patients are not always in a position to make an informed choice if they are close to having a breakdown.
Your post is informative but it is too generalised.
Speaking for myself - I think when Serenitie says - "When we suffer a bereavement or crisis it is a perfectly natural response to feel awful. Why medicate these feelings?" she is agreeing with me that to prescribe SSRI's to someone who is suffering from a bereavement is an awful thing to do. A SSRI isn't a quick fix for a bereavement! That suggests this person has a Serotonin issue!! My girlfriend doesn't have a serotonin issue, she just needs some time to bereave.
In my opinion, to prescribe SSRI's for someone who just came into the GP to get a sick note for a bereavement is absolutely appalling behaviour!
No amount of medication or counselling was going to get my girlfriend over her brothers death... the only thing that does is TIME. Feeling sad because we lose a loved one DOES NOT mean that we require an SSRI!
I understand you can't take SSRI's Ricardo but from a point of view of having taken them for many many years, taking them again, and doing many years study into them, I have slowly learnt that they are NOT a safe medication and not to be handed out lightly like paracetamol! These are psychoactive drugs, they mess around with the chemical reactions in our brains under an unproven theory that depressed or anxious people suffer from a lack of Serotonin.
My girlfriend has now been given the time off she needed and is now feeling MUCH better thanks to just TIME. Had she been medicated then she would be going through the absolute wonders of trying to withdraw from Diazapam and SSRI's and be going through another hell.
Steveo
As I said previously no two people are the same and neither is their level of either anxiety,depression or any other related mental ilness.
it would be wonderful if we could all live practically normal lives without any medication but just reading through the countless posts on here most people are on some medication or another.
Some of course do conquer their illness, and let's face it is an illness which none of us pre emptied and over the years it has been proved that many drugs administered in the 70's and 80's are now known to have had more long term harm than good,but it took twenty years to find that out.
SSRI's maybe the answer for many and now CBT for others and of course there are more ancient routes eminating from the far east which is an option to many.
There is no definite answer I am afraid with regards to medication but in my case,where i have failed miserably is that one can get into a comfort zone and never progress further.Those who have had the will power to conquer their illness i admire tremendously.
I belive a lot of this is in own's genes and people are positive or negative by nature and therefore again i say it is hard to generalise.
I'm right with you on your opinions Steveo. I'm 55 now but suffered my first episode of anxiety when I was 24 and my GP put me straight onto Ativan! There were no sites like this then or google to see what was hapenning to me so I was petrified of the sensations. Looking back I can see it was probably hormonal after just having my third child. The drugs made me 100 times worse and the compulsion to throw myself under a bus or off a bridge was almost too much to resist. I'm really angry when I think back to that treatment.
I'm now suffering again after losing my son in an accident (so I can relate to your girlfriends feelings). The pain of grief has been unbearable but I also know that I have no choice but to bear it and I'm doing it without drugs. Grief is a natural state, as is sadness.
I can also understand a GP's point of view, he has to be seen to doing SOMETHING and also people actually want medication as a 'quick fix'. they have no idea what they're getting into.
I'm so glad you've found this site to share your feelings. I can't bear to think of your suffering and that you might be compelled to take your own life, knowing the immense pain this causes to loved ones left behind. Please try and stay strong, life never stays this bad for ever. You WILL rise again. x
Serenitie
it appears that I seem to take issue with some part of each of your posts and though you started practising as a mental health social worker in the late 90's for you to say that A GP has less than 1 weeks specialist mental health training out of the 7 years they train is totally incorrect, how do I know because my uncle is a practising GP., and attends refresher courses every year in England.
Then you go on to say When we suffer a bereavement or crisis it is a perfectly natural response to feel awful. Why medicate these feelings? A little support and space to grieve is often all that is needed and essential to develop coping strategies for future use. A referral to counselling would be much more beneficial, but the lack of counselling resources often means that medication is offered as a 'quick fix'.
I am sure your attentions are honourable but no two cases are the same and personally speaking when I suffered bereavement of both of my parents within 3 years no amount of counsilling would have helped at the time.
Patients are not always in a position to make an informed choice if they are close to having a breakdown.
Your post is informative but it is too generalised.
Hi Ricardo :)
I think that it is healthy for you to disagree and voice your opinions. I do not take this personally. I'm very passionate about the issues discussed but that does not mean that I think everyone should agree with me. My opinions are formed through years of personal and professional experience, but I appreciate that people's experiences will vary.
I agree, practicing GP's do have refresher training at intervals, but as General Practitioners they only studied a mental health module lasting up to a week in their original training. I find this wholly inadequate when such a high proportion of GP visits are mental health related, increasing year by year (second only to back complaints as far as I recall and maybe obesity related problems now).
I find it very unsettling when I know more about my medication and symptoms than my own GP. My last contact with a GP involved a discussion about depersonalisation and derealisation. It was a very brief conversation as she did not know what these symptoms were! She is relatively young, which suggests to me that little had changed in terms of General Practice training.
Put very bluntly, looking at this from a different perspective, I would not trust a hairdresser to cut and colour my hair if they had only had a weeks training with refresher courses annually, so why would I trust a GP with my mental health? (Without at the very least questioning their methods or knowledge base).
I am in complete agreement with you, Ricardo, that no two cases of bereavement or crisis are the same. I started SSRIs following the death of my uncle who I nursed through cancer. I would have benefited hugely from bereavement counselling to work through my grief, but it was not available. I was not given the choice. Consequently, I did not process my grief and had issues and huge difficulties dealing with loss (not just bereavement) as a consequence for many years later, as I never learned strategies to deal with these issues. This impacted negatively and caused a deterioration in my mental health, which spiralled downwards when I lost another close family member again some years later. Until I processed my grief and learned coping strategies and developed resilience, no amount of medication helped me. It just masked the problem.
I'm really not saying that medication should never be issued. Practice guidelines state that it should not be a first line treatment. It so often is. Of course there will be exceptions. But look at it this way - if we never developed resilience through coping (with appropriate support) through whatever crisis be it bereavement or otherwise, how do we ever have that resilience or the skills to deal with future crisis's which we will inevitably face?
My concern and experience is that automatic medicating of such life events leads to learned helplessness where people never learn to cope independently of medication, where this is possible.
In relation to your last point, I have to disagree. In most cases of mental distress, with few exceptions (usually psychotic episodes) individuals remain capable of making an informed choice. It is often the lack of information in the first place or feeling that a person in distress is not being listened to that is a source of huge distress to them. Steven's own experience is a case in point.
I have sectioned people who were unable to self care or posed a risk to others. However, even at this stage of extreme distress, I consulted with them on how they would like to proceed with their transportation to hospital and other decisions which they were able to make or contribute to in relation to their hospital care, which family to contact and temporary re-homing of pets during their hospitalisation.
I stand pretty firm on user involvement in their care and actively advocate listening to people and giving them the ability to make informed choices.
---------- Post added at 20:16 ---------- Previous post was at 20:01 ----------
Steveo
There is no definite answer I am afraid with regards to medication but in my case,where i have failed miserably is that one can get into a comfort zone and never progress further.Those who have had the will power to conquer their illness i admire tremendously.
I don't believe for one minute that you have failed miserably, Ricardo. I think that the system has failed you as it fails so many. Your recovery and progress is by no means over. It is a case of finding what works for you. You have as much strength within you to make progress as any one of us do along with the right support. Not at all easy, but the length of time of your struggle does not make recovery impossible. Hard and painful, absolutely. But never impossible :hugs:
Serenitie,
one day I will put a post up about my own situation but for personal reasons I have too much going on in my life at the moment which affects me,my daughter who has an icurable ilness and the pending move back to England, and of course my wife who is in the midlle of all of this.
These are major issues which have to be dealt with.
For various reasons i have to be in the right frame of mind to do this accurately,so forgive me for the moment.
Serenitie,
one day I will put a post up about my own situation but for personal reasons I have too much going on in my life at the moment which affects me,my daughter who has an icurable ilness and the pending move back to England, and of course my wife who is in the midlle of all of this.
These are major issues which have to be dealt with.
For various reasons i have to be in the right frame of mind to do this accurately,so forgive me for the moment.
Ricardo,
I am so sorry to hear about your daughter. My heart goes out to you. There are no words to make you feel any better, but know that I, along with your other friends on here, would like to offer whatever support I can.
I'm sure that you will cherish the time that you have with your daughter and say all that needs to be said.
I have so many precious memories of the last year I spent my uncle almost 20 years ago that I still recall fondly now. I think that I was the only person to tell him that I loved him. I still remember how he blushed and flashed a lopsided smile that made him look like a little boy again :) My uncle's illness broke all the boundaries that were in place before. Every second was precious and had to count and it did.
I hope that your return to England goes as smoothly as possible.
Be kind to yourself. You are in my thoughts :hugs:
Cat x
Sparkle1984
10-03-13, 20:42
I'm sorry you've been feeling so bad lately, Steven. I hope they will switch you to a different medication urgently as citalopram clearly isn't working for you the second time around. If it's making you feel worse, then that should be treated seriously.
With regards to your girlfriend, I think the doctor probably made an innocent mistake. Sometimes the symptoms of grief and depression can be very similar, so sometimes grief can be misdiagnosed as depression. Grief isn't depression, so in most cases people won't need ADs in order to recover from a bereavement. However, in some cases I think that grief could contribute to depression or lead on to it, particularly if the person has other nasty things going on in their life at the same time. For example, if someone is going through a bereavement and then they are made redundant or fall out with their partner all at the same time, it could put them into an anxiety or depression episode. In that case, the patient probably could benefit from ADs to give them some relief and thinking space.
This is how my doctor diagnosed me (although my episode wasn't due to a bereavement): as well as a general discussion about my symptoms and my negative feelings, she asked me to fill in a PHQ-9 questionnaire (http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Patient-Health-Questionnaire-%28PHQ-9%29.htm) for depression and a GAD-7 questionnaire (http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Generalised-Anxiety-Disorder-Assessment-%28GAD-7%29.htm) for anxiety. These 2 questionnaires ask about your symptoms over the last 2 weeks, so if someone has been through a bereavement recently, they may score highly on the depression questionnaire even if they don't actually have clinical depression. I think that is how misdiagnosis can happen. However, as long as the doctor discusses the issues with the patient instead of just relying on the questionnaire scores alone, the chances of misdiagnosis should be minimised.
I hope that makes sense. I think the doctor in question probably needs more training about anxiety/depression, but I don't think they should be struck off. Of course, if someone doesn't feel they need medication, they can just say no (as your partner did) or not take it.
I was given diazepam with my citalopram (just a low dose of 21 tablets) but I never needed to use them. The doctor offered them to me just in case the side effects of citalopram got too much for me, and in case I got panicky, but as it turned out I got through the side effects pretty quickly and they weren't severe enough for me to need the diazepam. I'm glad I didn't need to use them, but even if I did, I don't think there was a risk of me getting addicted as I was only given 21 tablets which would've only lasted 7 days.
Anyway, I really do hope things are sorted out for you quickly, as I see you've suffered terribly over the last few days. Sending hugs. :bighug1:
Thanks for all the replies. This thread is turning out to be rather interesting as I enjoy seeing other peoples perspectives on this issue.
There are no right or wrong answers here. Just personal experiences. Thank you to everyone for your support towards my difficult time also. It really does mean alot.
And Ricardo, it sounds like you're really have a tough time too so my heart does go out with you. We are all here to support each other and you can feel free to PM me or any of us for anything we might be able to do.
As regards for SSRI's I am still on the fence here. I'm going to do some further reading into the subject just to get a more varied view on the matter. I have purchased a few books on Amazon, one written by a woman who used to be a pharmaceutical Rep in USA who is now speaking out against what she knows and another book who wrote that article I linked from the Huffington Post. I'm going to take the books with a pinch of salt and not take sides. If I'm being given a drug, I would like to know everything there is to know about it, and why I've been given it, and if possible, are there going to be long term issues with taking this? More and more people and stories are coming out of the woodwork, speaking out against drug companies.
I know Serenitie mentioned GP's only having a weeks mental health training. During my nursing degree we did one afternoon of training and with that one afternoon I was expected to be able to look after any mentally ill patient that might be admitted on any of the medical wards.
I think this post really boils down to my own personal experience of 23 years of having anxiety and my experiences of being through all of the systems etc. I do hugely understand that we live in a country where we are cutting the NHS budgets so tightly that it's almost at breaking point so therefore it's easier for a GP to hand out some tablets as he is unable to offer counselling anytime soon. I understand that waiting lists on the NHS for other therapies are very long if even available!
I think however, this is having a detrimental effect on peoples lives. My girlfriend is a very educated person with two degrees and a PGCE and I believe it was only her intelligence that was the reason she declined the tablets. She, like myself, questions things and doesn't put their full trust into something so easily. She understood that she doesn't have depression. Some people however, dare not to question someone in such high authority such as a doctor and put their full trust of their lives in their hands.
Even so, SSRI's are not the answer! If they were, this website wouldn't exist. Look at the medication thread of this website. 95% is full of horror stories, withdrawal hell stories, terrible side effect stories, nightmare stories.
I honestly believe in less than 20 years time, SSRI's will have such strict regulation or will even be banned because of new knowledge about how dangerous they are on our long term health.
Anxiety and depression is not physical. It's a cognitive disorder. The theory of chemical imbalance is JUST still a theory!! No arguments about that. Placebos in many cases have been shown to be far superior than many SSRI's for treating depression and anxiety. Plenty of research out there to prove that. So why are we being given something to chemically alter our brains, to physically alter our brains, when we don't have a physical problem? We have cognitive problems.
I'm very fearful for my future. My brain has learnt to compensate for the tablets for the amount of time I've been taking them that I can no longer function without them. I am a customer of the drug companies for life it seems.
Steven,
As you said, there's no right or wrong answer. I firmly believe that the answer is within us and it's through determination that we'll improve. There's no doubt that medication plays a very important role for some people and can give the respite to see things more clearly which can help us to deal with the real issues. Whether anxiety disorders are caused by genetics, chemical imbalances, learned behaviours or difficulties in living, none of us knows. We all have opinions but science, including medicine and psychiatry, doesn't have the answers yet. That particular subject is really interesting but the more important part is our quality of life. We are real people after all, not cases in a textbook.
I completely understand what everyone's saying about GPs and training. I can't comment on how accurate that is as my experience of mental health is either personal (from experience) or conceptual (from my studies and qualifications), not clinical. All I know is that my experiences with the medical profession have been nothing but positive and my GPs have never rushed to prescribe medication as the first-line treatment. When I have been prescribed medication, it's always been my choice. My GP talks me through the options, I go away and do my own research and then go back and discuss a little more. Maybe my experience is the exception, I don't know. Maybe, in some cases, people expect to leave the surgery with a prescription as a solution. I guess it comes back to the fact that we're all different with a wide range of expectations.
Regarding grief, some people find it virtually impossible to survive one day to the next having lost a loved one, even with counselling. I don't think anyone's suggesting this is a chemical imbalance but medication can help some people to get through a very difficult period. I have witnessed this in people close to me. This should never be at the cost of masking grief and not facing it head on.
Finally, I've seen various sources of evidence (I have read a lot during my studies) both in support of and calling into question the effectiveness of SSRIs, often written or presented by individuals with a vested interest. There is clear evidence that they can work. How much is the placebo effect, I don't know. My own experience tells me that medication (an SNRI in my case) has really helped me to live in less pain and put some structure back into my life. Have they been a miracle cure? Of course not and I never thought they would be. I've put in some very hard work which, at times, has been excruciating both to me and my partner. To be where I am now has taken a combination of lifestyle changes, CBT, my dog (you may laugh but it's true), the marvellous support from friends on here AND medication.
Not that I'm a religious person but I always recall my grandmother saying to me 'pray to god sailor but row for the shore'. I think that sums up what I think, with the prayers substituted by all the external help I've had.
I'm sure the debate will continue and it's very interesting reading.
Pip
Hi Steven,
I am in agreement with several points raised in your previous post.
I believe that the ability to educate ourselves and question authority or so called established facts is essential to empower ourselves. We are not taught to question things and those who do can be viewed as trouble causers or subversive. We are taught to fit a social order, know our place and defer to authority. I stopped doing this a long time ago. If you defer to anyone, you put both responsibility for and control of your wellbeing in their hands. This does not sit comfortably with me, especially in relation to mental health, with the knowledge that GPs and some medical professionals with licence and authority to treat mental distress are not adequately trained or knowledgeable enough to do so.
The long term side effects of SSRI's are unknown as yet. We live in a culture of medicalising emotional states, functional disorders and maladaptive (faulty) thought processes with no organic / biological origins.
As a long time user of a range of SSRI medications, I have tried at intervals to withdraw only to relapse a short way down the line. I am a very positive person, but do believe that I will be medicated for life. Not to keep mental distress at bay, but to keep my system topped up with the drugs that it has become accustomed to. I'm currently on a pretty low dose and plan to keep it that way if I am unable to withdraw completely in the future.
In the meantime, I perceive myself as as an addict of prescription drugs. The only way that my addiction differs from others, who chose their drug of choice, is that I did not have the information available to make an informed choice, I got no buzz and my addiction was instigated and legitimised by a GP.
Fascinating discussion, indeed, Steven! I've been on here for far too long today as a consequence! :winks:
Night All :hugs:
---------- Post added at 23:14 ---------- Previous post was at 23:08 ----------
Steven,
Not that I'm a religious person but I always recall my grandmother saying to me 'pray to god sailor but row for the shore'. I think that sums up what I think, with the prayers substituted by all the external help I've had.
I'm sure the debate will continue and it's very interesting reading.
Pip
I love this, saying Pip:yesyes: Never heard it before
Also, my cats have also been are a great help and comfort to me. I can totally understand that your dog has been a source of help and comfort. I think that most of us on here are animal lovers and can relate to that :)
Cat! You've taken what I've been trying to say but said it perfectly! I think both you and Pip have summed this up completely!
I really am very happy now that I've brought up this topic because everyone here has raised such great points.
There is no first line magic treatment for our emotional problems yet so at this stage we have to take what is available and what we believe might help. And yes Pip.....we all have to put a hell of a lot of work into our recovery on top of what ever medication we can find that will meet us half way.
This has been very interesting for today but I really should get some sleep for now as tomorrow I get to find out what different SSRI I will be moving on to. The 11 year relationship with Citalopram was good while it lasted, but that short period we spent away from each other changed us both. We no long get along! So tomorrow I get a lovely new companion to have it's turn to play havoc on my brain and probably spend the rest of my days doing so.
I will of course let everyone know on here and on my blog about the outcome of tomorrow. It's rather important and of course I'm very nervous! A change could make things worse or better or no change at all so I'm very nervous about it all! Despite the hell I am in, I remain fairly positive as I know for now, I need an SSRI (or maybe SNRI).
I'm really upset that I can no longer function off medication despite a year of tapering.
I look forward to other peoples views on what we've discussed on this thread also!
Speak you all soon! xxx
I am also finding this thread interesting and your grandmother's saying is brilliant Pipkin.
I am a journalist and it is second nature for me to question everything. I am also a sceptic and a cynic. And yet. I have read lots about antidepressants, particularly SSRIs, much of it by their critics. The placebo effect is an extremely interesting phenomenon and I don't doubt its existence. And yet. I always come back to this: looking back on more than 30 years of adulthood, the only time when I have been consistently panic-free is when I taking Prozac. I had a degree of success with a tricyclic and no success at all with what was, IIRC, a SARI.
It is not a magic bullet, I have to do other things to keep myself mentally well, most notably CBT. But I do feel that Prozac makes an essential and profound difference to my quality of life. If I eventually pay a price for my decision to make long-term use of it, then it is one I am willing to pay. That is my personal take.
Serenitie, do you not think think you are being harsh on yourself to describe yourself as being an addict? It seems such a negative label. I wonder if it isn't more constructive to think that it's just something your brain needs, not in a dependant way but in the way more like a deficiency. Some will regard that comment as a cop out but just as we don't know whether the chemical theory of depression is true, we don't really know that it's false.
I have three children and a husband who depend on me. I have to do whatever it takes to allow me to function. There are certain circumstances in my life that are not going to get easier, in fact they may well get harder. We're we to reach a stage where SSRIs were banned, I doubt I'd survive.
Steven, I wish you luck in your quest to find a drug that works for you. That can be both life saving and life changing. I also hope that the professionals working with you are the good and caring kind. I have experience of both those and their polar opposite.
And yes, do be prepared to kick up a fuss to get what you want. I have just been through this with my daughter and our adolescent mental health team. It paid huge dividends.
AuntieMoosie
11-03-13, 00:33
Hello all :)
I have to say to everyone taking part on this thread and in this discussion, that this is just the sort of topic that I love, secondly, even though we may not fully agree on certain issues with each other, we are all being respectful and listening to each other and learning different things as we go:) This is NMP at it's best and I'm enjoying learning and listening to all the different ideas and views :)
I do very much agree on what's been said about SSRI's being given out too freely nowadays, but looking at it from the doctors point of view, sadly they are very limited in the time that they can spend per patient, so I can kind of understand that they will see AD's as a "quick fix" just in order to get the patient better in a quicker and less time consuming way. I know it should never be looked at like that, but I fear it is, so it's not completely the doctors faults, I think it's more our Government, not that I want to get involved in any political debate :)
All that I really see with our GP's now, is that they have to meet this target and that target and, in most cases, their success is measured in physical means such as tests.
One example is diabetes, my GP's surgery is near on obsessed with Diabetes. Even before you're due your 6 monthly blood tests, a letter drops through the door urging you to make an appointment for the tests to be done, now I'm not silly, thought I admit that I do look it sometimes :winks: but this isn't in my opinion "patient care" it's more like "let's make it to our next target"!!!
So, getting back to the care of mental health patients, I suspect that we're not really that high on the list of priorities, I may well be wrong, but that is what I suspect. I also suspect that if targets were brought out for the care of mental health patients, the tables would turn pretty swiftly!!!
I have been an impatient on a mental health unit 3 times in my life so far. Now we have to remember that my stays were during the 80's and 90's, so things are probably very different now, I do hope they are in so many ways.
I found that I kind of just got swept away with all the professionals, I couldn't think clearly anyway so was in no shape to be making rational decisions at that time, but I just felt that I didn't really have a voice.
I remember one time in particular, when a nurse came up to me holding some water and a tablet, she said "here you are Mandy, Dr ******** has said for you to take this, so just pop it in" I was reluctant and I asked her what it was......."oh it's just something that will make you feel better" was her answer. Once again, feeling a bit powerless and without a voice or opinion, I took the medication, it was fine and nothing terrible happened but it was worrying me as I didn't even know what the heck it was that I'd just swallowed :wacko:
Fortunately a nicer nurse was on duty on the next shift, I got on well with her and I told her that I was worried about it. She duly went to my records and had a look and told me it was an anti psychotic, I was shocked!! and asked her if I was indeed psychotic???? she laughed, bless her, and told me no you're not, they use this drug a lot to help with the symptoms of anxiety and that's why the doctor has put you on it.
Does that sort of thing still happen now?? I really don't know, but I do hope not.
Serenitie I am in full agreement with you that patient, no matter what and how ill they may be, do need to feel partly in control of what's happening to them. The one big thing that scared me witless when I was ill, was the feeling of being "out of control" it's petrifying, well, it was for me anyway.
Patients must be given an element of control of what is happening to them, that gives then strength and builds their confidence which is just what is needed to aid recovery. I think long gone are the days that the doctors decide what's best and what's not, it has to be team work with the patient involved as much as is possible depending on how unwell they are and what they're able to understand.
I still have my doubts about what damage these SSRI's may or may not be doing to people brains.
Steven you'r not on your own, I've been taken them for longer than 11 years non stop, several different types but all SSRI's.
It's interesting that you mention memory loss. The one thing that I've never recovered fully, following my illness, is my memory?? My long term memory is all there and I can remember many years back, sometimes in great detail, but my short term memory is shot to bits!! lol
Now I'm 52 years old, so it could well be an age thing?? but I'm not sure?
The other thing that I wanted to mention about Citalopram is that it made me completely emotionally numb.........I hardly felt any emotions, I couldn't cry or really "feel" anything, has anyone else had that same thing?? Now that I'm on Sertraline too, my emotions are slowly waking up again and I'm able to cry which I do find helpful as a way of release.
So, to round up, as I've probably bored you all into a deep sleep now!!! :winks:
It's my opinion that patients with mental health problems need to feel in control and included in all decisions, medication shouldn't be the one and only "fix all" although extremely helpful and beneficial, other things need to be in place too, that's why I like to encompass all forms of treatment, I never say no to anything, just try and see what helps for you, it probably wont just be the one thing, but a mixture of many different things and remember, it does not matter 2 jots what you find helpful, if it helps you and aids your recovery then go for it, it's your health and you are in charge of yourself.
Many, many thanks to Steven for stating this thread and for all of you that are taking part, I'm learning a lot and I'm finding this thread very helpful to me as I hope it is to you too :hugs: :hugs: :hugs:
I am also finding this thread interesting and your grandmother's saying is brilliant Pipkin.
I am a journalist and it is second nature for me to question everything. I am also a sceptic and a cynic. And yet. I have read lots about antidepressants, particularly SSRIs, much of it by their critics. The placebo effect is an extremely interesting phenomenon and I don't doubt its existence. And yet. I always come back to this: looking back on more than 30 years of adulthood, the only time when I have been consistently panic-free is when I taking Prozac. I had a degree of success with a tricyclic and no success at all with what was, IIRC, a SARI.
It is not a magic bullet, I have to do other things to keep myself mentally well, most notably CBT. But I do feel that Prozac makes an essential and profound difference to my quality of life. If I eventually pay a price for my decision to make long-term use of it, then it is one I am willing to pay. That is my personal take.
Serenitie, do you not think think you are being harsh on yourself to describe yourself as being an addict? It seems such a negative label. I wonder if it isn't more constructive to think that it's just something your brain needs, not in a dependant way but in the way more like a deficiency. Some will regard that comment as a cop out but just as we don't know whether the chemical theory of depression is true, we don't really know that it's false.
I have three children and a husband who depend on me. I have to do whatever it takes to allow me to function. There are certain circumstances in my life that are not going to get easier, in fact they may well get harder. We're we to reach a stage where SSRIs were banned, I doubt I'd survive.
Steven, I wish you luck in your quest to find a drug that works for you. That can be both life saving and life changing. I also hope that the professionals working with you are the good and caring kind. I have experience of both those and their polar opposite.
And yes, do be prepared to kick up a fuss to get what you want. I have just been through this with my daughter and our adolescent mental health team. It paid huge dividends.
Hi Jane :)
I see my definition of myself as an addict as a factual one. For me addiction is a craving of a substance (or behaviour) that has to be taken and re taken to provide temporary relief. This accurately reflects my relationship with SSRI's. There is absolutely no judgement attached to this definition, which is often what causes the stigma. I'm really proud of the progress that I have made and really like who I am (it took a long time and a lot of hard work!)
I would not disagree that in cases of organic mental illness, medication is necessary. Substance induced mental illness and psychosis also warrants medical intervention as the abuse of substances can cause changes in brain functioning which in some cases can only be managed by medication. There is also evidence to suggest that PTSD and Complex PTSD can cause irreversible changes to the functioning of the brain and as such may benefit from medical intervention.
Anxiety, however has no organic origin. It is a product of environment, learned behaviour, life events, trauma (and the breakdown of family and community - but that is another discussion!)
I wish that there was more consultation and consideration given prior to prescribing. These are very strong, mind altering psychoactive drugs. As a teen, I had a ball! But I made an active informed choice not to take psychoactive recreational drugs as they were an unknown quantity and I really didn't feel the need to try them. SSRI's are also an unknown quantity, but we take them because our doctor tells us that they will help. The drug industry also has a vested interest in us being ill and staying ill. If we all had CBT or therapy as a first line treatment, had the time and space to work though our problems and got better or learned to manage our anxiety, the drug industry would be redundant.
However, most of us do not have the luxury of the time, space or access to resources for a full and lengthy recovery period if required. Most of us, like you quite rightly point out, Jane have to function ''I have three children and a husband who depend on me. I have to do whatever it takes to allow me to function.''
SSRIs will not be phased out for current users as the fallout would be unmanageable. Best case scenario would be that in the future, with more access to research and information, people will be able to make more informed choices and have better access to practical support, CBT and therapeutic resources.
Cat :)
---------- Post added at 02:00 ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 ----------
Hello all :)
I have to say to everyone taking part on this thread and in this discussion, that this is just the sort of topic that I love, secondly, even though we may not fully agree on certain issues with each other, we are all being respectful and listening to each other and learning different things as we go:) This is NMP at it's best and I'm enjoying learning and listening to all the different ideas and views :)
I do very much agree on what's been said about SSRI's being given out too freely nowadays, but looking at it from the doctors point of view, sadly they are very limited in the time that they can spend per patient, so I can kind of understand that they will see AD's as a "quick fix" just in order to get the patient better in a quicker and less time consuming way. I know it should never be looked at like that, but I fear it is, so it's not completely the doctors faults, I think it's more our Government, not that I want to get involved in any political debate :)
All that I really see with our GP's now, is that they have to meet this target and that target and, in most cases, their success is measured in physical means such as tests.
One example is diabetes, my GP's surgery is near on obsessed with Diabetes. Even before you're due your 6 monthly blood tests, a letter drops through the door urging you to make an appointment for the tests to be done, now I'm not silly, thought I admit that I do look it sometimes :winks: but this isn't in my opinion "patient care" it's more like "let's make it to our next target"!!!
So, getting back to the care of mental health patients, I suspect that we're not really that high on the list of priorities, I may well be wrong, but that is what I suspect. I also suspect that if targets were brought out for the care of mental health patients, the tables would turn pretty swiftly!!!
I have been an impatient on a mental health unit 3 times in my life so far. Now we have to remember that my stays were during the 80's and 90's, so things are probably very different now, I do hope they are in so many ways.
I found that I kind of just got swept away with all the professionals, I couldn't think clearly anyway so was in no shape to be making rational decisions at that time, but I just felt that I didn't really have a voice.
I remember one time in particular, when a nurse came up to me holding some water and a tablet, she said "here you are Mandy, Dr ******** has said for you to take this, so just pop it in" I was reluctant and I asked her what it was......."oh it's just something that will make you feel better" was her answer. Once again, feeling a bit powerless and without a voice or opinion, I took the medication, it was fine and nothing terrible happened but it was worrying me as I didn't even know what the heck it was that I'd just swallowed :wacko:
Fortunately a nicer nurse was on duty on the next shift, I got on well with her and I told her that I was worried about it. She duly went to my records and had a look and told me it was an anti psychotic, I was shocked!! and asked her if I was indeed psychotic???? she laughed, bless her, and told me no you're not, they use this drug a lot to help with the symptoms of anxiety and that's why the doctor has put you on it.
Does that sort of thing still happen now?? I really don't know, but I do hope not.
Serenitie I am in full agreement with you that patient, no matter what and how ill they may be, do need to feel partly in control of what's happening to them. The one big thing that scared me witless when I was ill, was the feeling of being "out of control" it's petrifying, well, it was for me anyway.
Patients must be given an element of control of what is happening to them, that gives then strength and builds their confidence which is just what is needed to aid recovery. I think long gone are the days that the doctors decide what's best and what's not, it has to be team work with the patient involved as much as is possible depending on how unwell they are and what they're able to understand.
I still have my doubts about what damage these SSRI's may or may not be doing to people brains.
Steven you'r not on your own, I've been taken them for longer than 11 years non stop, several different types but all SSRI's.
It's interesting that you mention memory loss. The one thing that I've never recovered fully, following my illness, is my memory?? My long term memory is all there and I can remember many years back, sometimes in great detail, but my short term memory is shot to bits!! lol
Now I'm 52 years old, so it could well be an age thing?? but I'm not sure?
The other thing that I wanted to mention about Citalopram is that it made me completely emotionally numb.........I hardly felt any emotions, I couldn't cry or really "feel" anything, has anyone else had that same thing?? Now that I'm on Sertraline too, my emotions are slowly waking up again and I'm able to cry which I do find helpful as a way of release.
So, to round up, as I've probably bored you all into a deep sleep now!!! :winks:
It's my opinion that patients with mental health problems need to feel in control and included in all decisions, medication shouldn't be the one and only "fix all" although extremely helpful and beneficial, other things need to be in place too, that's why I like to encompass all forms of treatment, I never say no to anything, just try and see what helps for you, it probably wont just be the one thing, but a mixture of many different things and remember, it does not matter 2 jots what you find helpful, if it helps you and aids your recovery then go for it, it's your health and you are in charge of yourself.
Many, many thanks to Steven for stating this thread and for all of you that are taking part, I'm learning a lot and I'm finding this thread very helpful to me as I hope it is to you too :hugs: :hugs: :hugs:
Hi Auntie Moosie :)
Mental Health, during the time of my practice was known as a 'Cinderella Service' second only at the bottom of the pile, to care of the elderly. In social care terms this meant that these services were often under resourced, under staffed and 'low priority'. Child protection being the priority service for political reasons and to appease public approval as children are perceived to be more valuable than the mentally ill and elderly by the general public and media. It is also easier to fob off someone in mental distress or an older person as they are vulnerable and less able to fight their corner. Sad but true.
I'm so sorry to hear of your experiences as an inpatient, Auntie Moosie :hugs: Antipsychotics were often administered inappropriately to manage the smooth running of understaffed psychiatric wards. This practice was known as the 'chemical cosh' a form of controlling patients, that still takes place, to a lesser extent today.
As a former inpatient, it is valuable to hear your feedback in relation to participating in decisions during times of extreme distress. Distress in itself can often arise from and brings about a loss of control. To take all control from an individual is in my opinion unnecessary and cruel. I imagined how I would feel and like to be treated in that situation and this guided my practice.
The other thing that I wanted to mention about Citalopram is that it made me completely emotionally numb.........I hardly felt any emotions, I couldn't cry or really "feel" anything, has anyone else had that same thing??
Yes!!! I am a very sentimental, emotive person, but the second time I was on citalopram, I was an emotional void. I only stayed on them briefly before switching and rediscovering my emotions! I'm glad that you have switched and found the release of your emotions too.
'' it does not matter 2 jots what you find helpful, if it helps you and aids your recovery then go for it, it's your health and you are in charge of yourself''.
:yesyes:
little wren
11-03-13, 09:24
GPs and psychiatrists follow the medical model - balancing the brain chemistry so a person can function. I have been desperately trying to get cbt (or any kind of counselling via NHS). Within the NHS perhaps this is a luxury (it can barely afford).
ssri's were esteemed as a 'wonder' drug (look at all the things it says you can take them for - again in the interest of the pharmacological company). Prozac was even suggested for weight loss at one point. Maybe their relatively fewer side effects compared to the older tricyclics goes some way for its popularity and over prescribing. I suppose it is balancing the benefits of taking it with how much you are willing to put up with side effects - there comes a point when the side effects do not warrant taking the medication (or increasing the dosage) though.
Just think how much money the NHS would save if it invested in early intervention talking therpies for disorders like anxiety! The current system allows (IMO) anxiety to become an ingrained, chronic condition because it is not treated effectively when it first arises. This inevitably costs the NHS more in the long run.
I've still not had that phone call today regarding my medical switch over so I will carry on slating SSRI's again hah.
Thanks to all the new people that have joined in on this topic of conversation. It's great to get more and more different personal view points from everyone.
Going back to when Serenitie said that she is now an addict, yes I believe I am. When a depressed and anxious Steven walked into the doctors surgery at 17 I was put on escitalopram (later changed to Citalopram). I knew nothing about this tablet. An SSR WHAT? 11 years ago, the internet wasn't what it is now. I was vulnerable. The the doctor told me then was gospel.
In the last 11 years during my improvement I tried coming off many times as I felt so much better. Everytime different doctors would tell me not to. So last year I tried doing it myself using my own medical knowledge and advice from others. I spent a year anxiety free, tapering very very very slowly. NO problems coming off! And now, through no life events, I am worse than I EVER have been in my entire life?! Non specific anxiety hitting my constantly, suicidal etc?! To tell me that the drugs haven't permanently changed me must be wrong.
Since coming off my meds in October, I noticed my mood and behaviour change very slowly. I socially isolated myself, I became terribly depressed, my anxiety crept back but I didn't really notice it until January.
I HONESTLY believe that my brain at 17 and onwards, compensated for the medications effects to the point where it can't cope without the drugs mechanism.
Currently on Citalopram I'm also unable to feel emotion. At the start of this 'breakdown' I cried an awful lot but I also felt happiness. Right now I feel nothing.
This whole thread has stemmed from my personal hell that has happened to me since October 2012, coming off medication after many many anxiety free years. It's very easy to say 'Well you came off the tablets after having no anxiety, then off the tablets you had anxiety, obviously the tablets work!!' But I don't think it's as simple as this. I honestly think there's something more to it than that.
I just wish that I was given a very long chat about SSRI's, both the dangers of starting and the very difficult time stopping, etc when I was 17 and vulnerable. I think if the 17 steven was the 28 year old steven, I would of declined the medication and just taken the option to try and see that tough period through with the help of CBT. My biggest regret in my life was starting SSRI's. I honestly feel they have permanently imparied my cognitive function and that my brain has compensated for the effects of what the tablets do. So I feel very much a victim here. I believe the SSRI's are to blame to why my life is in the toilet right now, because this is not me nor has ever been.
I'm very scared about my future, even if I get myself back to anxiety free on a different SSRI, I know that I will be stuck on that SSRI for life. Now I never really had a problem with that before but I'm young, I'm 28, I don't plan on dying any time soon (assuming I don't have another repeat of last thursday) so the rest of my life could be another 40 even 50 years. 50 years on SSRI's... is that really not going to cause my brain to compensate in some way or another?? Plus that would make me a life long customer of the drug companies.
Right now I just want to be out of this hell. I've just had yet another night of the most vivid dreams ever (drug side effect).
I'm in a place where I don't have too many choices. This isn't a pain I can put up with for much longer so I'm going to try whatever medical intervention I can have.
I didn't mean to divert this topic into my own personal moan, but I just wanted to explain what made me start this topic. I think it's ok to start being more cynical and skeptical about the drug companies when I've been this personally effected by them.
And I am writing all this also, because I would like to see a change in the system so that people don't go through what I'm going through.
Steven
x
I think its been a great thread and allowed people to voice their concerns which are all too often ignored by their GP's. I for one feel like a total hypochondriac if I ask my GP about the damage these drugs can cause.
My boyfriends little sister has just been put on Sertraline for OCD, she's only 12. :(
Hope your meeting goes well today Steven and they come up with an effective recovery plan for you x
I was put on Prozac at 7 years old for a year too Lissa101. Something they would NEVER do now!!!!
I also believe that they won't normally start SSRI's for people under 21. So that's 2 new rules that have come in since I started... unfortunately I had both these experiences though!
I just look forward to the day we are told SSRI's 100% cause permanent brain damage and they are outrightly banned. Then I will say 'I told you so!!'
lol, maybe we can sue and retire somewhere sunny. Now THAT would cheer me up!
Just think how much money the NHS would save if it invested in early intervention talking therpies for disorders like anxiety! The current system allows (IMO) anxiety to become an ingrained, chronic condition because it is not treated effectively when it first arises. This inevitably costs the NHS more in the long run.
I totally agree on all points you make, Lissa :)
---------- Post added at 15:01 ---------- Previous post was at 14:50 ----------
I've still not had that phone call today regarding my medical switch over so I will carry on slating SSRI's again hah.
Thanks to all the new people that have joined in on this topic of conversation. It's great to get more and more different personal view points from everyone.
Going back to when Serenitie said that she is now an addict, yes I believe I am. When a depressed and anxious Steven walked into the doctors surgery at 17 I was put on escitalopram (later changed to Citalopram). I knew nothing about this tablet. An SSR WHAT? 11 years ago, the internet wasn't what it is now. I was vulnerable. The the doctor told me then was gospel.
In the last 11 years during my improvement I tried coming off many times as I felt so much better. Everytime different doctors would tell me not to. So last year I tried doing it myself using my own medical knowledge and advice from others. I spent a year anxiety free, tapering very very very slowly. NO problems coming off! And now, through no life events, I am worse than I EVER have been in my entire life?! Non specific anxiety hitting my constantly, suicidal etc?! To tell me that the drugs haven't permanently changed me must be wrong.
Since coming off my meds in October, I noticed my mood and behaviour change very slowly. I socially isolated myself, I became terribly depressed, my anxiety crept back but I didn't really notice it until January.
I HONESTLY believe that my brain at 17 and onwards, compensated for the medications effects to the point where it can't cope without the drugs mechanism.
Currently on Citalopram I'm also unable to feel emotion. At the start of this 'breakdown' I cried an awful lot but I also felt happiness. Right now I feel nothing.
This whole thread has stemmed from my personal hell that has happened to me since October 2012, coming off medication after many many anxiety free years. It's very easy to say 'Well you came off the tablets after having no anxiety, then off the tablets you had anxiety, obviously the tablets work!!' But I don't think it's as simple as this. I honestly think there's something more to it than that.
I just wish that I was given a very long chat about SSRI's, both the dangers of starting and the very difficult time stopping, etc when I was 17 and vulnerable. I think if the 17 steven was the 28 year old steven, I would of declined the medication and just taken the option to try and see that tough period through with the help of CBT. My biggest regret in my life was starting SSRI's. I honestly feel they have permanently imparied my cognitive function and that my brain has compensated for the effects of what the tablets do. So I feel very much a victim here. I believe the SSRI's are to blame to why my life is in the toilet right now, because this is not me nor has ever been.
I'm very scared about my future, even if I get myself back to anxiety free on a different SSRI, I know that I will be stuck on that SSRI for life. Now I never really had a problem with that before but I'm young, I'm 28, I don't plan on dying any time soon (assuming I don't have another repeat of last thursday) so the rest of my life could be another 40 even 50 years. 50 years on SSRI's... is that really not going to cause my brain to compensate in some way or another?? Plus that would make me a life long customer of the drug companies.
Right now I just want to be out of this hell. I've just had yet another night of the most vivid dreams ever (drug side effect).
I'm in a place where I don't have too many choices. This isn't a pain I can put up with for much longer so I'm going to try whatever medical intervention I can have.
I didn't mean to divert this topic into my own personal moan, but I just wanted to explain what made me start this topic. I think it's ok to start being more cynical and skeptical about the drug companies when I've been this personally effected by them.
And I am writing all this also, because I would like to see a change in the system so that people don't go through what I'm going through.
Steven
x
I really believe that your meeting should have been held at your Dad's with you (and your Dad) present to have input into your care planning. It sounds like you did not have this as an option?
I hope that you get some feedback soon, Steven x
---------- Post added at 15:08 ---------- Previous post was at 15:01 ----------
I listened to this earlier this year. It was fascinating. You might like to add it to your research list, Steven :) http://www.amazon.co.uk/Voluntary-Madness-Year-Found-Loony/dp/1433235633/ref=tmm_abk_title_0
Cat, interesting that you "crave" ADs, my own experience is that I have never had this, not even when having hideous withdrawal effects from a tricyclic. I get up in the morning and immediately reach for my cigarettes, not my Prozac. I feel I choose to take them rather than "need" to take the them, although on a different level I do believe I need them. But we all know everyone's experience is different.
I agree with all those who say the NHS is currently failing sufferers of anxiety and depression. To my mind, this situation has worsened, witness the fact I saw a psychiatrist pretty quickly 16 years ago, last year I would have had to wait a year - what use is that to anyone?
My faith in the mental health services has been severely shaken by two recent encounters with our child and adolescent MHS. Firstly I was told that my son couldn't be referred to the (separate) eating disorder team because they only see serious cases. As opposed to helping people before they reach that position.
Then the CAMHS nurse who saw him recommended a great book for his issues - a student cookbook. Talk about banging your head off a wall.
The nurse who more recently assessed my daughter (she has epilepsy and is therefore at greater risk of having issues such as anxiety and depression) came out with such gems as "she's a clever girl, she'll be fine" and "if she walks away today there will be not mention of treatment for mental health probs on her records, if she comes back there will be". Talk about a fundamental lack of grasp of things.
So, yes, I agree the mental health services are far from doing their job (although my daughter's situation has now been sorted out). Realistically though, what prospect is there of things changing.
On top of that, while talking therapies have helped me, they haven't "cured" me, hence my ongoing use of ADs.
Something that I don't think has been mentioned on this thread is self-help, and I think that's something a lot of us need to do a lot more of. This can, of course, be a complete lottery in finding out what works for you but even at the most basic level financially there are a lot of good books out there, some of which, in my experience, can strike a greater chord than anything eg a psychiatrist is going to come up with.
Gotagetthroughthis
11-03-13, 15:14
Very interesting thread.
Not trying to scare anyone but here's a video of 1 guys opinion on SSRI's;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuYZMW-_nII
Just to add, the non-SSRI I took was in fact an NRI, no serotonin action involved, not that this was something I thought about at the time. I became agoraphobic. As soon as I returned to something that worked on serotonin levels, I was fine.
Cat, interesting that you "crave" ADs, my own experience is that I have never had this, not even when having hideous withdrawal effects from a tricyclic. I get up in the morning and immediately reach for my cigarettes, not my Prozac. I feel I choose to take them rather than "need" to take the them, although on a different level I do believe I need them. But we all know everyone's experience is different.
I agree with all those who say the NHS is currently failing sufferers of anxiety and depression. To my mind, this situation has worsened, witness the fact I saw a psychiatrist pretty quickly 16 years ago, last year I would have had to wait a year - what use is that to anyone?
My faith in the mental health services has been severely shaken by two recent encounters with our child and adolescent MHS. Firstly I was told that my son couldn't be referred to the (separate) eating disorder team because they only see serious cases. As opposed to helping people before they reach that position.
Then the CAMHS nurse who saw him recommended a great book for his issues - a student cookbook. Talk about banging your head off a wall.
The nurse who more recently assessed my daughter (she has epilepsy and is therefore at greater risk of having issues such as anxiety and depression) came out with such gems as "she's a clever girl, she'll be fine" and "if she walks away today there will be not mention of treatment for mental health probs on her records, if she comes back there will be". Talk about a fundamental lack of grasp of things.
So, yes, I agree the mental health services are far from doing their job (although my daughter's situation has now been sorted out). Realistically though, what prospect is there of things changing.
On top of that, while talking therapies have helped me, they haven't "cured" me, hence my ongoing use of ADs.
Something that I don't think has been mentioned on this thread is self-help, and I think that's something a lot of us need to do a lot more of. This can, of course, be a complete lottery in finding out what works for you but even at the most basic level financially there are a lot of good books out there, some of which, in my experience, can strike a greater chord than anything eg a psychiatrist is going to come up with.
Hi Jane :)
My craving is physiological. I can tell when I'm due my next dose as I start to feel disorientated, have increased itching and agitation. My craving does not achieve a buzz, but simply alleviates withdrawal symptoms. The same way as someone would take a drink to stop DT's or smoke a cigarette to top up nicotine levels.
I appreciate your frustration in relation to accessing mental health services. A lot of them are target focused based on 'outcome management' with a focus on 'throughput' rather than actually helping people. When I started practising social work in the 90's there was more focus on prevention and proactive social work. I saw it increasingly move towards a crisis intervention model which meant that proactive work diminished until people reached crisis point and fitted the 'criteria'. This is one of the many reasons I left the profession.
It was very much a postcode lottery back then too the work that I did in the 90's in Liverpool was much more innovative and effective. When I moved to Yorkshire and started practising here, it was like stepping back into the 70's with the use of outdated practices and little focus on research based, best practice.
I totally agree with you on self help being the biggest factor in recovery or any type of growth. If you read my posts, you will see that I credit my progress and ongoing recovery for the most part on my attitude and the things that I have put into place to help myself. Such things range from regular exercise, good nutrition, self massage and self care, expanding my comfort zone, increasing my social network and social interaction, engaging in meaningful activities and interests and setting up a monthly support group in Liverpool.
Steven and I discussed these this things on the phone. However, it is impossible to expect someone to engage in these activities when their body chemistry is so off balance from SSRI start up or increases that functioning from minute to minute becomes a huge challenge which becomes too overwhelming to endure.
I am also enjoying this thread and the different points of view.
i have often been asked what started my illness ( I like to refer to this as an illness ) and I have even often said this to myself.
Several theories have been put forward but none conclusive but when I first met my wife i was pretty normal :) and she saw that after the loss of both my parents and a former marriage which was over before it begun,all in the space of three years I was prescribed a mixture of mogodon and ativan for three years by just getting repeat presecriptions from my family G.P. and I turned into a total zombie and then the anxiety had already started.
I also wonder if people of an addicted nature might be harder to cure than others as they may believe that medication is the b all of everything .
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I spend most of my time thinking about the past when I was normal as opposed tothe uphill struggle I face on a day to day basis.
'' it does not matter 2 jots what you find helpful, if it helps you and aids your recovery then go for it, it's your health and you are in charge of yourself''.
I agree with the above quote from Serenitie completely
I know that the best person to help me is me.
Sometimes it is very difficult when you are in the depths of despair to think beyond the next few minutes, and to concentrate on anything rational seems impossible, but all of us on this site have the survivor instinct within us as we are seeking help and comfort as well as providing this to others just by being on here.
I agree that mental health is near the bottom of the pile as far as the NHS is concerned. It is such a complicated issue and there is still so much we don't understand about mental health. In an ideal world there would be more research, more accessible, proficient mental health professionals, more knowledgeable GP's.
This is obviously sadly lacking, and there are so many people out there not knowing what to do or where to turn to, or maybe unable to or unwilling to understand what is happening to them.
Everything is run by statistics and targets - I too work for the NHS, and I have grown very sceptical of the adequacy of the mental health services provided.
I don't blame the GP's - It's not their fault they haven't been given enough training, and their pressures are extreme. I can be at the surgery at 7.15 am and the queue is already building up even though it doesn't open until 8am.
If you turn up any time past 8am for the drop in service, you are lucky to get a seat, and you can wait anything up to 2 hours. The gp's probably dread patients like us. They like patients with an irritating cough, or some other physical ailment they can treat.
We live in a difficult world where to thrive, we have to make many decisions.
That may mean taking Sertraline or Citalopram or not. CBT or other forms of counselling, or whatever is available/offered. It is our choice -if we are able to- to make these decisions, and to find out as much knowledge about these treatments as possible before deciding. Some of the decisions I have made have been wrong I know, but it is trial and error and I am doing everything that I feel is right for me. I have a husband and 3 children who need me, so I continue to do whatever it takes.
I am also enjoying this thread and the different points of view.
i have often been asked what started my illness ( I like to refer to this as an illness ) and I have even often said this to myself.
Several theories have been put forward but none conclusive but when I first met my wife i was pretty normal :) and she saw that after the loss of both my parents and a former marriage which was over before it begun,all in the space of three years I was prescribed a mixture of mogodon and ativan for three years by just getting repeat presecriptions from my family G.P. and I turned into a total zombie and then the anxiety had already started.
I also wonder if people of an addicted nature might be harder to cure than others as they may believe that medication is the b all of everything .
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I spend most of my time thinking about the past when I was normal as opposed tothe uphill struggle I face on a day to day basis.
Hi Ricardo :)
Research shows that we can deal successfully with one crisis at a time, but when we face with several life events or crisis situations at once, as so often happens, it stretches our coping resources and makes us susceptible to stress related illness. It is completely understandable that you developed stress and subsequent illness as a consequence of the life events you experienced within a relatively short space of time. I believe this to be the trigger of my anxiety too.
http://www.pluk.org/training/Stress_Management.pdf
By being medicated in response to my anxiety, I believe that I was not taught how to cope with these issues and medication reinforced my own perception that I was unable to cope, which exacerbated my anxiety, caused me to have no faith in my abilities and caused a temporary loss in hope for my future.
I have an addictive personality, I am addicted to SSRIs, but do not believe that impedes recovery. I have made huge progress in the last year. This time last year I was jobless with no income from work or benefits, very close to being homeless (3 months in arrears with my mortgage), had no social life whatsoever and could not leave my home.
I'm not fully recovered yet, but I have repaid my mortgage, I'm in the process of developing my own business, I have developed a great social network and my social life is expanding to incorporate new adventures monthly :)
I still panic when I go out. But I go out and enjoy myself in spite of it. I push myself out of my comfort zone by visiting new places and trying new activities. The benefits outweigh the anxiety. I have lapses in concentration and co ordination as the day progresses (side effect of medication) so I complete tasks earlier in the day. I laugh at myself a lot now when I get clumsy or forgetful instead of fearing that I'm losing my mind and getting worked up about these things. I'm working towards being anxiety free in terms of everyday functioning, but if that never happens I can live with it. I have a good quality of life, I finally like who I am, I live very much in the present and I am grateful for all that I have. I also have great hopes for the future.
I think it is about balance. I exercise, eat well and have great interests and social interaction. So what If I smoke and enjoy red wine in moderation? I want to be happy, not perfect :winks:
Just to top up - this extract of an audio podcast (PM if you want the full link) is more proof that I believe 11 years on Citalopram has caused me to have depleted levels of Serotonin in my brain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDw7NjuJGy4
Quote:
'' it does not matter 2 jots what you find helpful, if it helps you and aids your recovery then go for it, it's your health and you are in charge of yourself''.
I agree with the above quote from Serenitie completely
I know that the best person to help me is me.
I agree with you completely, ruthless :yesyes: I just want to point out that I was re-quoting from Auntie Moosie's previous post. This is her quote. I re quoted in agreement :)
Cat, I am not disputing your experience but I do think it's a little unusual. I have twice stopped Prozac dead without experiencing any problems. The time I take my dose varies a lot day to day and I can easily miss a day with no effects. My husband has a bad habit of running out of citalopram and it is usually three or four days before he notices. I also appreciate that there are people in a position where they are unable to help themselves - been there - but there are also a lot who appear not event to try when they are in a position to do so.
Well done on facing your panic. It is a very hard thing to do but definitely important. Avoidance is such a counter-productive thing. When I had to drive on the motorway daily, I did it even though I hated it and would regularly panic. Now I'm back not needing to and freaked out on the rare occasions when I might be required to.
As for the YouTube videos, well you can find anything you want on the internet. The first one was interesting from the brain/gut aspect, however - there is a lot of discussion about this in an epilepsy context too. I see a naturopath who works on the basis that a lot of our health problems (of many different types) are caused by the fact our food no longer contains the nutrients we need. Eating organic produce may help but she also prescribes celloid mineral treatment. I have ME and it has gone into remission in the time I have been seeing her. I can't say as a result of seeing her because who knows? It has also allowed me to stop using betablockers and IBS medication. I'm sticking with that even though I can't really afford it. Meantime, I'm also sticking with the Prozac.
Cat, I am not disputing your experience but I do think it's a little unusual. I have twice stopped Prozac dead without experiencing any problems. The time I take my dose varies a lot day to day and I can easily miss a day with no effects. My husband has a bad habit of running out of citalopram and it is usually three or four days before he notices. I also appreciate that there are people in a position where they are unable to help themselves - been there - but there are also a lot who appear not event to try when they are in a position to do so.
Well done on facing your panic. It is a very hard thing to do but definitely important. Avoidance is such a counter-productive thing. When I had to drive on the motorway daily, I did it even though I hated it and would regularly panic. Now I'm back not needing to and freaked out on the rare occasions when I might be required to.
As for the YouTube videos, well you can find anything you want on the internet. The first one was interesting from the brain/gut aspect, however - there is a lot of discussion about this in an epilepsy context too. I see a naturopath who works on the basis that a lot of our health problems (of many different types) are caused by the fact our food no longer contains the nutrients we need. Eating organic produce may help but she also prescribes celloid mineral treatment. I have ME and it has gone into remission in the time I have been seeing her. I can't say as a result of seeing her because who knows? It has also allowed me to stop using betablockers and IBS medication. I'm sticking with that even though I can't really afford it. Meantime, I'm also sticking with the Prozac.
Hi Jane :)
I'm currently taking escitalopram. From speaking to other escitalopram users, my experience is common amongst users as were my start up effects and the vivid (sometimes disturbing) dreams that started at the same time I started taking this drug.
I have taken prozac, citalopram, and seroxat in the past without these immediate effects, but all drugs act differently.
I think it is simplistic to say that there a lot of people who don't try to help themselves. I believe that we all do the best we can with what we have to work with at any given time. We are all on different journeys so I avoid making comparisons or passing judgement. I share my experiences, knowledge and support and remain open to learning.
I think that worrying about what others think of us and what judgements they pass on us compounds anxiety and played a huge part in my anxiety in the past. I now subscribe to the opinion:
“What other people think about you is none of your business.”
Who cares?! :D
I'm glad that prozac is working for you and you have found other methods to support your well being :yesyes:
Hi Jane :)
I think that worrying about what others think of us and what judgements they pass on us compounds anxiety and played a huge part in my anxiety in the past. I now subscribe to the opinion:
“What other people think about you is none of your business.”
Who cares?! :D
I totally agree. Unfortunately it is something I still struggle with on certain levels, although, at the age of 51, I have finally made some inroads.
It's so good that you were able to stop Prozac without any problems at all! I was a bit like your husband at times with my medication regime! I would find that I had ran out and forgotten to put my prescription in for days. I would really notice though after a few days! I would get terrible terrible symptoms. The longest I went without the meds was about 4/5 days and it was horrible. Had to get an emergency supply. A few hours after taking my first one after that, things were instantly back to normal.
So in that way, I was an addict, and I guess I still am as I tried coming off and things got worse than they ever have.
I didn't yearn to take one in the morning like some people have to have a cig, or crave my medication like chocolate. I just had to take it otherwise it would make me feel physically unwell.
AuntieMoosie
11-03-13, 23:40
Serenitie thank you so much for your very helpful and supportive reply to my post :hugs:
I'm having "brain fog" today so I hope I make sense in what I'm saying.
I do agree with all of you on this thread for various reasons.
I think the addictive nature theory that Ricardo pointed out does hold some weight too. But my underlying fear really is that are these SSRI's in anyway addictive?? If they're not, as the doctors claim, I just don't quite grasp why they seem to cause so many problems when trying to get off of them??
My GP told me that they're not addictive at all and he went on to explain to me what addiction means, he said that if they were addictive, we would have to keep having more and more to gain the same effect, he said that that was what addiction meant, you keep needing more of something to get the same effect.
I'm not too sure if I quite follow that or not, am I right in thinking that surely even if you have to remain on something, or there are terrible problems coming off of something, then that too would make that addictive?? Please do tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree with this theory of mine :) it's just something that I often think about.
A doctor did mention to me last year that I could be "SSRI sensitive"?? as I really wasn't feeling well when we had this conversation, I'm afraid that I didn't really go into it too deeply, my brain wasn't in a position to take in the information anyway, but does anyone know what "SSRI Sensitive" means please??
Years ago, well, when I had my post natal depression which was back in the early 80's. I was on the Tricyclic's, although they had to get me off the first one, imipramine, as it sent my blood pressure down to almost hitting the floor!!!
I was then changed to lofepramine and I had very good results with that one, I know there were some side effects, but to be perfectly honest with you, I didn't find them any more of a problem than I have found the SSRI's, in fact I would even go so far as saying that I found the initial starting of SSRI treatment much more problematic then I found with Lofepramine??
I agree totally with everyone that the care and treatment of mental health patients needs a complete overhaul I think, yes, I do agree that treatment, where at all possible, should be carried out in the home setting as opposed to the hospital setting but in order for that to work successfully, the resources need to be put into place and patients should be able to access services of all sorts at the point of need.
Anyway I'd better stop now but just to say this is a most interesting subject and one that I'm enjoying taking part in.
Best wishes and hugs to you all :hugs::hugs::hugs:
little wren
12-03-13, 09:01
Steveo this topic is very interesting and thought provoking.
I just want to say Auntie Moosie I too questioned about addiction and ssri to psychiatrist and was basically told the same as you - addiction is a craving of more of the substance to get the same effect. So what do they call having to keep on taking a medication JUST so you don't feel bad by the withdrawal effects? Withdrawal syndrome or whatever just seems so mild a description when some people who try to come off ssri can get SEVERE symptoms lasting a long time and after stopping the medication find themselves worst than when they started the medication. When I started trying to come off prozac (7 years ago) after taking them for about 3 years or so I not only experienced SE but also a few months later became severely affected by ocd (which I had NEVER experienced before). I know we all have our individual, anecdotal stories and I know the counter-argument is well I may have just gone onto develop this anyway (or it was being masked by prozac etc). However, I do think ssri's are 'addictive' to some people in this sense for years. I am told I will likely take ssri for the rest of my life to keep the ocd at bay now. Moreover, at a much higher dose than I was originally prescribed.
Steveo you can find anything on the internet to support or refute claims I would take them with a pinch of salt. What I am interested in is peer reviewed medical journals - we are finding new things out about ssri that initially were not mentioned like suicide ideation, loss of libido - new symptoms are supposed to be reported to the company who manufactures the medication, but it would be interesting for them to hear from people world-wide who have this 'withdrawal symptom' as they call it just so that it can be called to attention and independent research be done (is it 2%, 20% 50% 70% what?).
This is a subject I feel strongly about - I rarely get involved in debates on this site as Ive seen a few get ugly with people shouting each other down but this debate is really refreshing. (you watch me get shouted down now lol :unsure: x
Little Wren, this might answer some of your questions
http://www.aafp.org/afp/2006/0801/p449.html
I came off Cipralex completely cold turkey in December, and felt dizzy and a bit spaced out for a few days. That didn't bother me at all as I often ran out of meds before I got my new prescription and often went days, so I was used to that feeling.
It was only after 6 weeks without Cipralex that my anxiety started again. Or maybe it had been building up slowly, and I was too busy to notice, but 6 weeks later I was really unwell, much more so than ever before.
I don't suppose I will ever know if it was because the meds had completely left my system by then and the Serotonin in my brain had stopped functioning as it should have. I had been taking Cipralex for 5 years without any real anxiety symptoms.
Does this mean I am addicted to AD's and will always have to take them?
Maybe coming off them cold turkey was the wrong thing to do. I suppose I was the type of person who deep down never believed they would work for me anyway, even though I took them as a 'just in case' maintenance type of thing, I was always pretty slapdash with them.
I ask myself if my anxiety would have resurfaced anyway. I became very anxious and panicky just after I had completed all my mums affairs as she passed away last November, and there was lots of sorting out with solicitors etc which caused me some stress, but certainly nothing I couldn't handle.
This is a very interesting debate, and I can't be certain that I for one am addicted/not addicted to AD's. I still don't really know if I've done the right thing going back on them. It was a knee jerk panic reaction after my symptoms got worse and worse.
Yes, I am feeling less anxious, but still not my normal self, and the side effects were horrific at first - or would my anxiety without the meds have been that severe anyway?
I suppose I am just questioning everything. Do the meds really work? Are the side effects genuine side effects, or just anxiety symptoms which may have happened anyway? Would I have felt better anyway without the meds now as a natural progression? Is it possible to become dependant? I take my meds because 'they may be working' but it is something I would prefer not to do
You bring up some of the same questions I bring up. We have similar stories where we took them for years, felt fine so came off the meds. Then it comes back much worse than ever and I believe it's because the Serotonin in my brain had stopped functioning as it should have.
If only I had a twin who had exactly the same situation as me but instead of coming off the meds last October, stayed on them. I think if I stayed on the meds, I wouldn't be been January, February and March's most prolific poster on this website.
Unfortunately for me, coming BACK on the meds is only making my problem worse. Over 2 months back on Citalopram and I've spent last night and this morning in my bed, shaking and crying my eyes out. As a 28 year old man, I haven't done this for many many many many years.
Right now, I don't care if I am an addict or not, I just want the bloody meds to get me back to health again. It's a scary situation I'm in.
A lovely book came for me in the post today called 'Your Drug May Be Your Problem - How and Why To Stop Taking Psychiatric Medications' by Peter R Breggin M.D. and David Cohen, Ph.D.
Worth taking a lot at the other side of the fence.
Oh Steven
I am sorry you are feeling so bad today. Maybe it's because you are changing your medication. I hope you are feeling a bit better now
No, I don't really care if I am an addict or not either. Just as long as I am ok for my husband and kids
Personally, I wouldn't want to read the book you ordered. I only want to read positive stories about my meds, and I think I may become disheartened. But that's just me.
If I look into my meds to deeply, I am scared I will not believe they are going to help, and I need to stay positive.
A couple of the books came in the post today and I've thrown then in the corner of the bedroom. I've spent the entire day in floods of tears, shaking and crying. I'm so scared.
Just another thought. Many of us take other medication for heart,cholestral,diabitis and others together with anti depressants and though the doctor should always check that they are compatible with one another it still may give additional problems when taking anti depressants or even stopping them , which are not always listed.
A couple of the books came in the post today and I've thrown then in the corner of the bedroom. I've spent the entire day in floods of tears, shaking and crying. I'm so scared.
Sounds like you could do with a friendly ear? Are you up to talking, Steven? If so, please feel free to call me :bighug1:
xxx
Alison 1971
12-03-13, 17:40
Hi iam currently taking 45mg of mirtazapine and in the last 4 days 10 mg of citalopram, I was on citalopram 20 mg for approx 4years up until last dec when I had a serious set back and I panicked when my dr doubled the dose so I was referred to a psychiatrist who stopped the citalopram cold turkey straight onto mirtazapine! It was hell and I'm still struggling with really bad nausea and restless legs and in general agitation, saw my mental health nurse today and I broke down, I recognise that I appear to me highly sensitive to any increase or change but she like me wonders if I can stay on these combinations or reduce the mirtazapine? I am in constant panick and the anxiety has got a lot worse as has the nausea, I certainly haven't found mirtazapine to increase my appetite it has the opposite effect? My husband and I pushed the psychiatrist into putting me back on the citalopram? Am I expecting too much too soon and has anyone had anyone else had experiences similar? my life is just horrible and I can't see a way out its a living hell :weep:
is fluoxetine a ssri as iam worried after reading this thread
Mrsnobody, please try not to worry. The negative things that are said about SSRIs (yes, fluoxetine is one) are theories and opinions, that's all. No-one can say they are facts. Prozac has been, literally, a lifesaver for me. Whatever you do, don't stop taking your drugs suddenly. If you did want to come off for whatever reason, it can be done slowly with little or no problem.
Sparkle1984
12-03-13, 22:18
is fluoxetine a ssri as iam worried after reading this thread
Please try not to worry. It is very rare for someone to have a bad reaction like this. From what I've read (not just in this thread but on these forums in general), it seems that the risks of a bad reaction are higher if someone starts SSRIs when they're very young (ie when they're still a teenager as it's believed the brain isn't fully developed), if they've been on them for many years, or if someone suddenly stops taking their medication without tapering off.
I successfully used SSRIs (10mg citalopram) from August 2012 right up until last month, and it helped me a lot while I put into practice what I'd learnt in my CBT course. I don't think I could have got to where I am now without them, so I certainly don't regret taking them. I weaned off slowly over a period of 5 weeks (as my doctor agreed that I was ready to come off them) and I've been off them completely for nearly 2 weeks. I have felt fine since coming off, and even if I do get anxious I feel that I will be able to handle it better in future.
AuntieMoosie
13-03-13, 00:21
Aww please don't be frightened.
This is why I had to think twice before posting my opinions on this thread.
JaneC has got it 100% right :) All that you read on this thread are just opinions and theory's of individual people and they're own experiences and questions :) They are not to be looked at as "fact" or "proven" just experiences and questions that's all :)
You must never make any decisions about anything that you read on the internet really, in regards to medications. Remember each one of us is different, we're individuals who will react very differently to medications and therapy's :)
That is why any discussions regarding your own treatment must be discussed with your doctor and your doctor alone :)
This is a most interesting thread and I'm still learning a lot from it.
Steven I can hear the desperation in your posts, I've been there, desperately waiting for relief, but you will get your relief, it may take a little time, remember what I said about breaking the day up?? just take it bite by bite. Be your own very best friend and be kind to yourself, all good things will come soon :)
Steven the fact that you're crying is really good. Sounds daft doesn't it? but truthfully, crying is such a good release of emotions, that's why we humans do it. To give in, and leg go of your emotions, like crying, is a most healthy thing to do, I know it helps me a great deal, it feels like a release. I believe that the crying is doing you probably more good than anything else, it's a natural healing process and is a positive thing :)
Alison you will get to the end of your living hell. I know it doesn't feel like it now, but you will :) Just take it steady and slowly, and with time, things will get better :) It's good that you've got a mental health nurse supporting you along the way, just hang in there :hugs:
little wren
13-03-13, 07:31
is fluoxetine a ssri as iam worried after reading this thread
Hi yes fluoxetine is prozac and it is an ssri.
I am so sorry the thread got you worried - the title perhaps is a bit dramatic and so is more likely to attract people on this site who have had problems with ssri (like me) rather than positive stories. If you read some of the other threads on prozac/fluoxetine alongside this one they may show the other side of the coin and the success stories of the drug.
Please don't worry - I think a lot of people are posting about long term use or high dosages and then coming off rather than short term use. If this thread was for scaremongering I certainly would not have responded to it - but I actually think its the other way around - asking people to question their doctors about any worries about the medicine before they start it. Just to be informed.
I take this thread as a debate - the stories are anecdotal and not to be generalized to everyone who takes ssri. As some of the posts say it helps a LOT of people regain their lives back. The link Jane gave shows that withdrawal syndrome actually only affects 20% of patients meaning 80% are fine when coming off the medicine. Prozac is one of the oldest ssri's and the most studied - like all medicines it has its pros and cons and affects each individual differently. I hope this has helped :)xxxxxxx
---------- Post added at 07:31 ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 ----------
Little Wren, this might answer some of your questions
http://www.aafp.org/afp/2006/0801/p449.html
Thanks Jane - this was really interesting and did answer some of the questions I had :)
thankyou for your feed back you have put my mind at rest. i think its because i have had alot of bad reactions to medications in the past, my head just went into panic mode again.
That's why I was very reluctant to starting this thread as I didn't want to scare people off from taking medication.
I think this is more of a moan at the general system that the dangers of medication. Please don't be scared of taking your meds. They are a live saver to so many people including 11 incredible years I had and so many other people on here.
This thread was intended for us 'lifers' who prehaps feel at some point we have been maybe misled or given the wrong information over the years. A general moan. No one on here is qualified to give real dangers of these meds. It's mostly heresay and our own personal experiences.
Some meds work so well for some people, and for some they don't. If my Citalopram worked 2nd time round for me then I wouldn't of started this thread! I'd be out playing in the sun!
Only a very very few percentage of us have any real horror stories or proper moans so please disregard anything you may have read on here. It's also helpful not to get bogged down in the particular medication forums as you can often read some nasty things there too which can play in the back of your mind.
Go into the medication with a healthy positive attitude and you will be fine :)
dont know what to do. had a terrible day feeling dizzy, blurred vishion and foggy headed. my gp is no help and hasnt given me any advice. iam on day 27 of fluoxetine and although they seemed to have carmed me down the side effects are getting to me. i carnt sleep , tired/sleepy, dizzy and carnt think straght. maybe iam better not taking them???
Hi MrsNobody, side effects are different for everybody and can take up to 12 weeks to disappear. Of course, I'm not a doctor and anything that is troubling you should be spoken over with your GP. But just from experience these meds take a while to settle. Don't be over concerned with this thread, it's mainly directed at people who have long term exposure - e.g years. And even then most of the alleged damage (if any exists in the first place) is reversible.
Hope you feel better soon :hugs:
indigogirl
25-03-13, 02:50
That youtube vid was a waste of 10:24 seconds of my life. Citalopram has saved my life. I did go off them and had to go back on and I don't care if I have to stay on them for the rest of my life.. if it means I can get up and go outside and not worry about things that will probably never happen. I do feel for everyone on here suffering from panic as I have most of my life. Maybe give it a bit of time to work for you. I had to when I went back on it. Im sorry you feel bad and you are having such a rotten time love and light to you.
:) Hi Guys,
Having read through a number of posts on here and being a sufferer of anxiety and panic attacks I thought I would share a bit of advice (gained from my own personal experience and research).
1) There is depression (flat mood) and (2) Aggitated depression (low mood with extreme anxiety and panic). These two conditions require seperate approaches in terms of med's:-
1: Flat depression tends to respond better to SSRI as they are allerting/mood lifting.
2: Aggitated/anxious depression tends to respond better to double bind med's such as Mirtazapine. This offers a more sedating effect which often comes as a great relief to people with anxiety and depression. SSRI's in this sensitive group can be overstimulating leading to extreme anxiety/panic (due to lifting effect) can also cause insomnia and a feeling of being 'over wired'.
A full assessment of the TYPE of depression should be completed prior to prescribing.
BW
Gotagetthroughthis
11-08-13, 18:20
Been reading through this thread again as I am thinking about going back on meds. I really wanted to avoid going back on an SSRI but I don't think I can cope without them.
I have just read so much on these meds now it worries me what they do to the brain. I have read to much for my own good.
My doctor has prescribed me Paroxetine this time and from what I have read it is the hardest SSRI to come off with terrible withdrawal symptoms.
I may one day have to face up to the fact that I may have to stay on one of these meds for life but my plan for now is to try once more to spend a year or so on a med and hopefully create new positive pathways and thoughts in my brain and then be able to come off the meds without relapsing. Thats if I find a med that actually works for me.
Has anyone actually been on these meds for more than a year and managed to come off and stay off without problems eg relapsing or having neurological problems, memory problems etc?
---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 15:27 ----------
Anyone?
Been reading through this thread again as I am thinking about going back on meds. I really wanted to avoid going back on an SSRI but I don't think I can cope without them.
I have just read so much on these meds now it worries me what they do to the brain. I have read to much for my own good.
My doctor has prescribed me Paroxetine this time and from what I have read it is the hardest SSRI to come off with terrible withdrawal symptoms.
I may one day have to face up to the fact that I may have to stay on one of these meds for life but my plan for now is to try once more to spend a year or so on a med and hopefully create new positive pathways and thoughts in my brain and then be able to come off the meds without relapsing. Thats if I find a med that actually works for me.
Has anyone actually been on these meds for more than a year and managed to come off and stay off without problems eg relapsing or having neurological problems, memory problems etc?
---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 15:27 ----------
Anyone?
You could post a question in the Paroxetine forum?
Pip
Gotagetthroughthis
11-08-13, 19:46
Hey Pip,
Yea I will post in the Paroxetine forum at some point. Just wanted to find out if many people have successfully come off meds and stayed off without problems so thought id ask in here first.
I will make a thread and ask if I have no luck in this one :)
AuntieMoosie
12-08-13, 00:55
Unfortunately I haven't been able to come off of anti-depressants without there being problems, normally I've ended up with a depressive episode and twice had to go into hospital.
I've since been told that I will have to always be on anti-depressants in order to keep me as well as possible.
Of course, this is not to say that the anti-depressants have caused this problem or if it's a problem within myself, who knows really.
But equally, I'm sure there are millions of people worldwide that have successfully managed to stop taking them without any problems at all :)
Gotagetthroughthis
12-08-13, 14:23
Hi AuntieMoosie,
How long were you on anti depressants before you first tried to come off if you don't mind me asking?
AuntieMoosie
12-08-13, 19:20
It's usually been about a year I think, if I can remember rightly as it's a long time ago now :)
Gotagetthroughthis
12-08-13, 21:15
It's usually been about a year I think, if I can remember rightly as it's a long time ago now :)
Thanks :). Its looking very much like a will be going back on them. Now I have to decided which 1. I think its down to Fluoxetine/Prozac or Paroxetine/Paxil.
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