Does it take time to accept the fear/anxiety and not be afraid? [Archive]

phil6

31-03-14, 06:57

Hi,
Acceptance is very hard. But don't lose faith as it is the key. Anxiety disorders are definately kept alive by fear. Fear of the symptoms, fear of losing control, fear of being like it forever. These are common threads.
I struggle like you to find how to let go when the adrenaline rushes through you and that horrible feeling of dread hits your stomach. I think it is impossible to like that. I also think it is impossible to suddenly learn to lose all fear of it. It is a long process to slowly change your reaction from terror, to discomfort. I know this can happen, but you have to keep practicing.
The hardest thing is understanding that acceptance is not a thought process, it's about not doing things rather than doing something.
I am still struggling to accept. Feeling discomfort, sick etc is not nice and it's very easy to think that it's too hard to bear, to look for relief. I suppose it's learning that relief will come in its own time, but not by your efforts.
Feel anxious but keep in mind that it's a transient feeling which will come and go. Some days it stays all day but don't blame yourself when this happens. Sometimes you accept, and sometimes you don't... That seems to be what happens. But if you expect to do this right all the time you will just get frustrated and despair.
Remember, any attempts to rid yourself of anxiety doesn't work. It feeds it.
I am with you , it's hard, and there are ups and downs, and I often lose faith that I can do this, but what is the alternative??
Just look for that feeling of slight relief of lifting the weight off your mind when in the midst of anxiety you can tell yourself that you don't need to think your way better. It's not a job that your mind can do.
I also try and think, it's ok to feel unwell for now...it's ok to feel anxious. Give yourself permission.
Phil

LiveAboveIt

31-03-14, 07:52

Once again, Phil. Wonderfully said. It's nice to know that I'm not alone. I've made a simple change recently.. When I begin to feel the anxiety or it's symptoms begin to bubble, this creates fear.. So I've been whispering or thinking to myself.. "It's alright. It's just anxiety. You are fine. It's nothing to be afraid of." I always feel a subtle relief, or the fear/anxiety begins to slowly back away from where it began to bubble.

Also, one of my biggest issues is forgetting that it's just anxiety, nothing to fear, and that I need to accept my feelings and dislike of the my current symptoms. At first I fought this idea entirely, the dislike of the symptoms, because I thought it would mean I was fighting against them. This was not the case. It was my way of acknowledging each symptom and letting it go, so that I didn't continue to fret about it for the next hour or so.

Rumination is a huge weakness of mine and I'm slowly learning to identify my feelings and to leave them alone, to be alright with the fact that they scare me.. Who wouldn't be scared of the way it feels? And this seems to be fine and calming. It's when you WORRY about the feelings, that it seems to change to negative..

Those intrusive thoughts like "Why won't this just go away? Will I have this forever? Why can't I seem to beat this? Why does this bother me so much? Why can't I calm down?"

Those thoughts are the only things that appear to increase my anxiety and cause depression/despair. I feel as though, if I can learn to not give much thought to these ideas, and just have faith that I'm on the right path, they are becoming much less frequent.

In other words..: The anxiety and the symptoms of the anxiety suck. You are allowed to feel dislike over them.. And don't beat yourself up if they make you afraid, just calmly remind yourself that it's just anxiety and it's just a sensation or a transient feeling, as you would say. It took me a long time to learn this.

It is definitely an uphill battle, but I'm glad to have friends that are supporting me and people that I can talk to on this forum that are enduring the same struggles.

phil6

31-03-14, 08:14

Well said. That certainly describes my struggle exactly.
It can get very confusing as I find myself thinking it's ok, it's ok, it's ok! And then I realise I am desperately trying to rid myself of it.
Your description of accepting your dislike and even how they can scare you is very interesting. This is a real issue with me since I find myself trying not to be frightened, but I am! It's about not thinking fearful thoughts as this fuels the anxiety, but not getting caught up in trying not to think, or not to feel. Sometimes I get so tied up with all this, it's best to just say STOP.
This morning I woke at 3 am and kept having bursts of anxiety as I tried to get back to sleep. I know that the thoughts are causing these but they are almost automatic. It is also true that some of my symptoms I will never come close to liking! Nausea is one for sure!?
Thanks for your reply. It is helping me this morning as I am very nauseus.
I have had a couple of days which have involved wine and beer. I am aware that this has also not helped... A bit of temporary relief but not long term!
Also a lot of renewed searching for reassurance and help on the Internet. I think we have all learned enough and need to start practicing what we have learned.
I am off all medication now as none seemed to help, and so self help and acceptance has to be the way for me.
Phil

LiveAboveIt

31-03-14, 08:20

Hang in there, buddy.

The best we can do is to acknowledge the anxiety and it's symptoms, remind ourselves that it is alright to feel the way that we do, but don't struggle against it. This anxiety will leave us when we have learned to accept what it is and that we aren't afraid of it. Just please remember, you never need to LIKE your symptoms, just do your best not to let them bother you.. And keep your mind calm, avoid searching for answers or solutions, as this will only be done in vain and will continue to escalate the situation.

It's almost as if life is trying to teach those of that are so anxious, to find our center and inner zen. :P

I'm glad that I could help, as you have helped me many times with your posts.

MrAndy

31-03-14, 09:24

I simply ignore my anxiety ,it has taken a year but 99% of the pyhsical symptoms have gone.I have blips still but I do feel im winning this war very slowly with some ups and downs.Im not sure if ignoring anxiety can be classed as acceptance but it works for me.Time is also a great healer

phil6

31-03-14, 09:42

Andy,
Ignoring is absolutely accepting.
For me accepting is allowing the anxiety to be there but not reacting to it or trying to fix it.
If you are able to just carry on and pay it no attention then that's fantastic.
I have not achieved that far yet. When my tummy trembles and I feel shaky I am not sure I can just ignore it. The best I can hope for now is to try and not get involved in a struggle with it. I try and just carry on... Do things even though I feel very uncomfortable. And try not to be quite so impressed by it.
Also trying not to think of it as evil or bad....which I don't find easy!
Phil

MrAndy

31-03-14, 10:11

all you can do Phil is keep going ,the blips get shorter and the gaps between them get longer.
The Paul David book is very good and worth a read,I didnt find the claire weeks books much use they seemed very dated to me.
Stay strong Phil you will get over this , you said you have before so why not again

JoeNoir

31-03-14, 12:10

I've been trying to fight the anxiety, the stomach knots and nausea. Looks like the wrong approach. Never considered giving in, and getting on. Is ignoring the anxiety a workable strategy?

MrAndy

31-03-14, 12:26

I've been trying to fight the anxiety, the stomach knots and nausea. Looks like the wrong approach. Never considered giving in, and getting on. Is ignoring the anxiety a workable strategy?
well its worked for me :) fighting only makes it worse .I also found out through trial and error that you have to be a bit selfish and be very kind to yourself.

LiveAboveIt

31-03-14, 18:31

I've been trying to fight the anxiety, the stomach knots and nausea. Looks like the wrong approach. Never considered giving in, and getting on. Is ignoring the anxiety a workable strategy?

As Andy said, ignoring it is absolutely a great strategy.. When we sit and ruminate on our symptoms, or try to figure out a reason why or how to stop it, this only increases the anxiety and/or panic.

I've had this "full anxiety cycle" in the past and it's lasted months.. But I've always managed to inadvertently beat it and make it go away. Although I lose hope and I, too, tend to forget the good and positive affirmations whilst going through anxiety and panic.

This most recent one, though, I feel as though I finally understand WHY I've managed to get rid of this in the past. I always seem to get to this point where I think "I know that I can't make this go away.. As much as this scares me, I'm done trying to find a way to fix this in my head, because I know that I can't. So I'm going to live my life and do my best to ignore how much the symptoms bother me."

This is never an easy process, especially with the anxiety at it's worst.. But, I've always managed to get it to leave. I don't fight it, I know that I'm going to feel the way that I feel regardless of fighting it or not.. So I do my best to not let it bother me and continue to tell myself "It's okay, it's just anxiety" when I start to feel the anxiety spikes.

But yes, the very worst thing you can do is sit and ruminate about your condition.. I've done this for a total of 4+ weeks now and all it seems to do is cause panic and increased anxiety.

Even KNOWING all of this, it isn't easy, but I KNOW that it will go away, because I have managed to beat this in he past without knowing what the hell I was doing.. Which is why it always came back, because I never knew to remember to NOT be afraid of it and just let it run it's course. It reminds me of a wound on your body.. You need to just let it heal. The more you poke and prod at it, the more irritated it becomes, and the longer it takes to heal itself.

Just remember.. Don't think about it. It WILL go away, but only once you stop wishing it away and just learn to live with it, for only the time being. And it's not about tricking your mind to be okay with the symptoms and accept them.. It's basically just about accepting that there is nothing you can do to stop it from happening.. And the longer you can go without fighting it, the easier it will become. I'm sure you've noticed this through your own experience on good days.

Just remember to continue to tell yourself that it's alright to be afraid and it's alright to feel what you are feeling. It's almost like losing a loved one.. Don't beat yourself up because you're depressed, sad, and afraid.. It's all part of life and it too, will pass, but only with acceptance.

And acceptance is a funny word. When I first heard the word, it did nothing for me.. I think, like you said, acceptance is different for everyone. But I used to fight it and try to find "acceptance" through what I had perceived as someone else's acceptance.. For example, I thought I had to LOVE the symptoms/fear/anxiety and be absolutely fine with the idea that I would be this way for the rest of my life.. And that is simply not the case.

My acceptance came in the fact that I know this will pass and the fear is only natural.. Dislike of the symptoms is only natural.. If it weren't uncomfortable, how would the body tell us that something is wrong? It's all part of our built in security system. Sure, something is glitched right now.. But we have the most advanced A.I., our brain, and it will mend itself through time.. But you have to let it and stop rebooting your mind in a panic, and halting the progress. :P

Hopefully this made sense. xD

Rennie1989

31-03-14, 18:46

To me, treating anxiety is like treating a toddler with a tantrum. Ignore it and let it happen, let it do its worst, and when it has burnt out you can sit there and go 'Well that wasn't so bad'. Concentrating on the symptoms only makes them worse, you're feeding them with attention. The less attention you give them the less severe they'll become, to the point where their presence does not faze you at all.

LiveAboveIt

31-03-14, 18:59

That's a great way to look at it, Rennie. Sounds like a safe bet, to me. I'll give that a try.

aprilmoon

31-03-14, 19:08

So will I.Thanks Rennie.x

MrAndy

31-03-14, 19:16

Phil if your still reading this thread from your posts you seem to suffer with bad morning anxiety.I tackled this by telling myself at bed time ,right in the morning I'm going to wake with bad morning anxiety .That stopped the fear of it and the will I wake up bad etc.When I was anxious in the mornings no mater how early I would get up and go make a cuppa and sit on the sofa,as I felt better I would drift off to sleep. I don't get morning anxiety anymore.

LiveAboveIt

31-03-14, 21:09

MyNameIsTerry

01-04-14, 05:53

I like the point you make about acceptamce being individual and not a one size fits all concept.

I struggle with acceptance of symptoms but I have managed to fix a lot of the intrusive thoughts & OCD to this point. That has required a bit more than acceptance alone because I needed to relax my subconscious so I could break the repetitive cycles and allow me to tackle the underlying anxiety.

I always see acceptance and it's always "this is what it is", but thats not helping me because I've spent many years training my mind to be logical & analytical so it looks at something and tries to pick it apart. For me, this makes acceptance hard because I view it in a negative manner...a curse of so many years in a job like that!

It's good to hear this because it's obvious from your thread that you are really making progress and that encourages those further behind you in the race.

I also like the concept of a trial to find your inner zen. I think we are far too concerned with the rat race and materialistic concepts and I would love to come out of this as a more spiritual person who doesn't care for those things anymore.

phil6

01-04-14, 11:42

Yes Andy,
Getting up when you wake is definitely a good idea. In fact it is also a Claire Weekes thing.
I do try, but usually I am calm when I wake... And think, ah, let's have another half hour of lovely sleep, as I am naturally lazy and enjoy my bed. The calmness changes to anxiety after a couple of checking type thoughts and BAM... Anxiety. Then I have the bad habit of trying to get calm again to get a bit more sleep. That rarely works, or if I do manage to pass through it and get a little calmer I seem to drift in and out of a nightmarish snooze with anxiety coming and going.
It is another think I ought to change.... Rise on waking even if after a cuppa you can return to sleep.
Phil

MrAndy

01-04-14, 11:52

I truly hope you can find a way around this horrible illness nobody deserves to go through this in retirement ! I have a very stressful job but I think in reality it is a good distraction for me,if I had more time on my hands I would go bonkers for sure :)

Brunette

01-04-14, 13:24

Trying to "ignore" anxiety can be a bit like trying not to think of an elephant!

I found it helped to acknowledge it was there but to belittle it or dismiss it. Just say, aloud or in your head, something like, "You're only anxiety, you can't hurt me so don't bother trying," or even, "Oh f*ck off anxiety I haven't got time for you now."

aprilmoon

01-04-14, 13:28

I'll second that brunette
Let tell it to get lost,or words to that effect.

Rennie1989

01-04-14, 14:39

When I mean 'ignore' I meant to not give it attention.

LiveAboveIt

01-04-14, 19:47

Acceptance is realizing that the symptoms can't harm you and that YOU cannot make them go away.. This in turn causes you to stop searching your mind for an answer and stops you from constantly checking your symptoms and anxiety. Realize that it is there and it will go in it's own time.. But you need not fight it.. Be aware that you have the symptoms. It's alright to feel discomfort from them, you don't have to LOVE them.. And you can want them gone all you want.. Just know that they will go in their own time and don't WORRY about them. Usually, the thought of "I want this gone" leads to "How do I get this to go away?" Thus, starting the worry/panic cycle. Instead of "I want this gone", change your thought process to "I look forward to not feeling this anymore. I know that I can't do anything to change the way I feel, but I can accept that I feel this way.. Yes, it sucks and feels horrible, but there is nothing I can do." WORRYING about it, feeds the anxiety and further strengthens it's grip.

I'm on day three of practicing this, and I feel great. It still isn't 100% gone, but I can barely feel it now, I'm no longer obsessing. I've used this method to get out of the anxiety/panic cycle, several times throughout my life. Trust me, it works. The bottom line is.. Do NOT worry about it. Just let it be. It will be tough at first, because you will feel it and instinctually want to understand why and search for answers. Don't. That is the problem. The mind will heal itself, you just need to leave it alone. This shows the mind that you no longer fear it, even whilst feeling discomfort from it. Eventually this will train your brain to stop reacting and the symptoms will begin to fade. It just takes faith and patience.

cwright

02-04-14, 03:01

LiveAboveIt

02-04-14, 03:49

Day three only?? Wow!!! Are you taking any medications? What is the most helpful thing to say to yourself?
Cindy

---------- Post added at 20:01 ---------- Previous post was at 19:59 ----------

I have such a hard time with work. It is where I had my first panic attack. I'm in constant fear of losing control again like that ...in front of everyone. How do I accept that and move past that?
Cindy

Hey, Cindy. Initially, my psychiatrist tapered me off of Effexor and onto Luvox.. Had horrible withdrawals from the Effexor and the Luvox only seemed to be making my problems worse. I've now been off of the Effexor for 32 days and I've been off of the Luvox for about 25 days.

I struggled with constant thinking/worrying about how to overcome the anxiety and it's symptoms.. I struggled with anxiety 24/7 for about a month and a half..

Finally, it just clicked.. And it wasn't an overnight process.. I just decided that I needed to stop worrying about it.. I've had it in the past and it ALWAYS seems to go away when I've begun to NOT be afraid of it.. The constant thinking about it/worrying thoughts are by far, the worst thing can you do, and only fuel it.

You have to stop searching for answers on why you feel this way and how to fix it or get it to go away. Acknowledge that you have it and that it feels uncomfortable. NEVER worry or be hard on yourself for hating the anxiety and wanting it gone. I did that and it only worsened my anxiety. Just have faith that it will leave in it's own time.. The longer you can go without constantly worrying about it and just learn to live with it, you will notice that each day is much easier. Be patient.

I've also begun applying this strategy in other areas of my life.. If something scares me, like being around people or doing a certain something, I do it now instead of avoiding it. This begins teaching your mind not to react to every fear with anxiety or panic. It really is a matter of retraining your brain. You can't help but worry and think negatively when you're stuck in an anxiety loop.. But if you work at it, your brain and habits will finally begin to react and change to positive.

Just have faith that you're on the right path and do your best to not worry about the anxiety, it WILL fade on it's own. Sometimes it takes days, weeks, etc. But it WILL fade, but only if you stop poking and prodding at it. This works for me everytime. And tell yourself that it's OKAY to be afraid, anyone would find these feelings uncomfortable and worry if they will ever go away.. Acknowledge the symptoms and your discomfort of them and just move on. Do not let them impede your life. You have to continue LIVING a normal life, to get your normal life back. Your brain is very intelligent and will follow suite, even if it may not seem that way.

Also: As far as your panic attack and losing control is concerned.. I, too, had this problem. I was trying to sleep one night and could not get my mind off of my anxiety and caused myself a panic attack. Same thing the next night. I was in constant fear of this happening again that I began to avoid sleep.. Remember, this is JUST a fear. You won't lose control. Worry is what causes panic. Because you are constantly thinking about/trying to fight against your anxiety. If you just acknowledge that you have anxiety, that it's uncomfortable, but remind yourself it is JUST fear, which is a false transient sensation.. I promise this works.. I used this method the last 3-4 nights.. Went to sleep fine each time.. But I STILL was worried about having another panic attack and that I wouldn't fall asleep, all the way up until night 3. That worry and fear of the next attack is slowly starting to fade since I've begun training myself to not have irrational fear and understand that I can't fix or change my anxiety. Once I stopped trying to control and worry about my anxiety and the way it feels and its symptoms, I haven't had another panic attack, and my anxiety has begun to lift more and more each day.

MrAndy

02-04-14, 08:54

float above it ,around it ,through it but dont engage in it,it sounds simple but it really works

robinsky

02-04-14, 16:43

Someone and I can't remember who, said that you can't just wave a magic wand and expect everything to be OK, just like that.

I suffer from anxiety and have done so for several weeks due to a high pressure work situation.

Currently, I am slowly recovering but it took a major point on my mental health, even to the point of where I had suicidal thoughts and even contemplated it to make all the pain go away - then I came to my senses.

So to answer your question, you may not first be aware of what your issue is and over time, you could become aware of what your issue is and then take positive steps to try and find ways in which to overcome it.

cwright

02-04-14, 19:27

LiveAboveIt

02-04-14, 19:45

I've had a much better day so far...thanks everyone. I've been trying to just feel it, and do my normal routine. And I sang a few rounds of "let it go". Hahahahah. So, feeling hopeful. It is still here, but I am more hopeful.

Perfect, Cindy! You've got it! That's EXACTLY what you need to do. If you continue on this path, you will slowly begin to notice that each day is easier.

Even if you have a blip or two, hold on to how much easier the days prior were, compared to when this first arrive.. And have faith that those are the signs that you are heading down the correct path.

phil6

02-04-14, 20:30

Back all that up...
It is very possible, but not easy, to feel anxiety but change your reaction to it from.... I have to do something, run, avoid, rush, work it out, find an answer or anything to make it go away to a new attitude of do nothing, slow down, realise it's not your fault and your efforts to rid yourself of it is not helpful.
You have to catch yourself getting hooked by the anxiety " fight or flight" system as it is a very well designed system which makes you want to act.
Mindfulness meditation is a great way of practicing and recognising when your mind has been hijacked and bringing yourself back to reality.. The here and now, rather than all the worries and stories about the past and the future. When you find yourself thinking what if .... It is not easy to not follow that thought but it can be done. Following these unhelpful thoughts and worries is very unhelpful and cause anxiety, and they are just part of the anxiety trick. Once you catch yourself, you can let them go. There is no point in following thoughts that are just anxious stories. What ifs are a waiste of time and feed the anxiety. They are not reality, just stories.
So feel anxious, that's Ok . You are allowed to be anxious. But stop believing all the stories you tell yourself. They are just your hijacked mind, your anxiety bluffing again.
Believe me it is ongoing work in progress for me but I am convinced it will pay off. You cannot feel good when you feel anxious so stop trying. And get through those blips. We all get them, especially when we have had some good days... It always feels like you have slipped right back, and it's hard to remember feeling OK, but they are just blips and a good opportunity to practice again. You need to understand how anxiety fools us every step on the journey to recovery... It's a clever adversary, but you are bigger than it.
Phil

robinsky

02-04-14, 20:57

That sounds very promising cwright! Keep it up!

phil6

03-04-14, 11:57

This has been a very good thread as it is dealing with the core of the disorder.
Just thought I would describe how anxiety gets me hooked up and struggling and how we all struggle with accepting.
This morning I wake with anxiety. It starts shortly after waking and I understand why. It's my habit to body check, to see if I am anxious. This sparks thoughts about anxiety which is all it takes to get the adrenaline flowing.
My mind then instantly goes into trying to accept mode. Trying not to add fear, trying not to think incorrectly etc etc.
It is so difficult to realise at this point that you have entered into the war. Trying is not accepting. Like we have said on this thread, acceptance is not a thought process, it's just an attitude. But you cannot stop thinking!! And I find myself imagining how I would cope if I was in a restaurant feeling this way, or on a plane on holiday.... This is really very unhelpful.
My mind then tries to find some affirmation it can hang on to whilst I am starting to feel close to panic, as I now start to think this is too difficult.
Then I think... This is anxiety, and I am doing what I always do, and getting the same results. Remember, this will pass and this is normal for me as I have an anxiety disorder. Although the stories start, I don't need to believe them and I need to allow myself to feel these sensations. They are horrible, but they will pass.
And the biggest calming thought is that I need to remember it won't always be like this. I have to believe this is the best I can do and it is the right way. Because I am feeling high anxiety does not mean I am doing something wrong, or that I need to do something right. It means I am feeling anxious and all I need to do is understand that is the way it is. I have some choices when it comes to the stories that start, as although they seem irresistible, I can at least recognise them as those old rubbish stories. But as far as the rest goes, I can only encourage my mind not to get involved. I suppose it's by practicing not to care, after all there is no real danger and all my imaginations won't actually happen.
But.... the last point I need to remember... If I manage not to care... The symptoms will probably remain for a while. It's so easy to check to see if the new attitude is working.....wrong!!
Work in progress !
Phil

---------- Post added at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 ----------

As I am having a difficult start to the day (again!), I thought I would add a little to my above comments. It may also help.
Any sensations that feel a bit different can lead your mind down a new path of thinking... Maybe I am different, maybe this is the sign of something new... Etc etc. This also needs to be recognised as just more rumination and of no help.
And finally, I find myself imagining myself in situations feeling like I do at the moment. E.g. How will I cope if I feel like this at the dentists later.
Our minds just want to imagine things to try and prepare itself to cope. This is also almost irresistible but again doesn't work and so a waiste of time.
It's hard not to follow where the mind wants to go. It wants to solve the problem. That's the problem... It's just about practicing giving up these things when you find yourself hooked. It's as hard as giving ip smoking, which I did a long time ago. My point is it's an up and down journey and takes a lot of practice but remember it is the only way. Have any of your other methods worked?
Phil

Sunflower2

03-04-14, 16:44

I defnitely think that when you worry about having anxiety forever it makes it feel so much worse. I'm slowly accepting that maybe this is just the way I am and will be. It doesn't make me a broken person, just more cautious and emotional. And with that acceptance and not labelling myself as a weak person with this "disease" I actually have started feeling a bit better. I've also accepted that maybe sometimes my moods will be a little extreme, but that's ok too. Maybe some people wouldn't agree with me and say that you should fight it till it's completely gone, but for me that isn't realistic and just makes me feel like I'm fighting a losing battle.

phil6

03-04-14, 17:21

Kimberley,
It is our natural response to fight something we don't like. Our minds have evolved to solve problems when they arise. So we treat anxiety the same.. It's not nice and we feel frightened by it. So we try and solve it.
But I have never been able to solve it. I don't think anyone has thought there way out of it as it is not logical. If you have a specific life problem that is external, then you need to do something about it if you can, but so much nervous illness is about coping with nervous illness. And it makes sense that the more you fret about your nervous illness, the more nervous you get. It's a simple vicious cycle.
But just how do we teach our minds to drop the subject and just let it go when it is internal. That is our minds do worry, and do ruminate, and when it does we feel anxiety, then we worry that we are worrying and making it worse, which we are. How do you stop?
Well I think we can only recognise what is happening and try and find the faith to stop believing our own anxious mind.
I keep reading that we are bigger than our "thinking mind". That we don't need to believe or react to our thoughts. This takes practice and time because this is all part of us.
If it was easy then millions wouldn't get trapped in this merry-go-round.
Somehow, we have to remember that we are feeling fear, but this is OK for now. Everything else that bugs us in our own heads are just stories.
I hate feeling like I have all day today. It also feels like it's here to stay. I also cannot recall the good days or what it felt like. It makes me want to give up and despair. It does all this very convincingly. It convinces me!
But a little voice is starting to say... You have been here before many times, bought the T-shirt and where does it lead to if you follow your thoughts and feelings.. It leads nowhere.
I will be honest and tell you that the little voice gets drowned out a lot of the time, but he is right and my anxious mind is wrong. It plays all the stories and I cannot stop it, but the practice is learning to say... Ah! I am doing it again, believing all this crap!
Today I am going to do something different. I am going to feel anxious and not despair about it.. And if I feel anxious tomorrow then so be it. I cannot rid myself of it.
Now this seems like giving in and resigning yourself to a life of misery, but every book and therapist will tell you that this is the way you eventually lose your fear of it. And doesn't it make sense that if you are no longer frightened then you won't feel frightened, EVENTUALLY.
Now of course there are many who will feel that they cannot accept. The symptoms are to great, there mood too low. But are they actually taking the hardest route. They struggle and fight heroically and I empathise totally, but they can never win the fight. Their aim is to feel better, and who can blame them or us, but is it working? Are they getting better? I don't have an issue with medication if it helps, but there still has to be a change in the way we think or we are just masking the problem.
I make no apology for keeping this thread going... It's very important to encourage acceptance and to clear up the confusion about it. And remember if anxiety was not scary, and we all learned to remove fear and anxiety totally then we would all be in BIG trouble, and so would the human race.
And please don't think that I don't struggle as much as all who read this.... I do! And I fall into all the same traps... Every day!
Be patient, and be kind to yourself. Join with me and let's get through this.

Phil

cwright

03-04-14, 17:57

Phil...
Thanks for your last post. I just saw my doc, and have a prescription for pristiq. I don't know yet if I I will take it...I really really do not want to. But I've been having such a terrible day so far, taking Ativan was all I could do. Couldn't talk myself out if it today, and I'm not sure why I could yesterday, and not today. So now I have the guilt with that. I don't want medications, I think they can cause more problems sometimes, and maybe delay getting better. Or do they help? I don't know what to think. I just know this is an exhausting way to think, and to live. And I need to feel normal for my family's sake.

Sunflower2

03-04-14, 18:19

I think it's a great threat to read when you're feeling despairing. Every day you wake up and think, today WILL be different, I will not let it stop me today. And then it gets too much and you feel like a failure and feel even worse than if you hadn't done anything at all that day. I think you need to find a balance between challenging yourself so that you can manage it and doing too much. It's so hard because it's like one part of your mind saying do it, you can accomplish anything! And the other shouting noooooo it's too dangerous!

phil6

03-04-14, 18:36

Cwright,
Been there... I am off medication as for me it was all side effects. Now that's just me.
Also I knew I was never going to feel happy if I needed medicating, but that's just me.
I don't know if I hit rock bottom again maybe I will try medication again.
So if you feel it might help, give it a fair go.
If you really don't want to, then don't.
I think the thing I try and convince myself of is I can do this without medication and many people agree nowadays. I am no expert, I am a sufferer.
It's what you believe isn't it. I go through days when self doubt overwhelms me. Like you I don't know what to do. But it's about passing through these spells and coming out the other side with something gained, not just more bad memories.
If I can get through today without feeling like I failed and crumbled again, then it's a small step forward. This surely has to help me tomorrow.
I treat this a bit like the battle I had to give up smoking many years ago. I used to get to about midday and then give in to the urge and physical feelings and the thought that I just need one cigarette to feel a bit of relief. I failed, again and again.
Then one day I got to the end of the day and slept. I knew I could do the same again and I have not smoked since. It was so so hard. I also used patches ..so I accept some help.
Anxiety is the same for me in a way. I accept but then I don't and I despair. The urge is to look elsewhere for a fix, but I think I am coming around to the idea that this isn't a pain free journey. Also it's a mistake to measure your progress by how you feel. That's the wrong measure and will just lead to more disappointment.
Please make a start by feeling awful, but reducing your fear of the feeling. That is step one. You will be amazed at what you can still do whilst feeling like this...absolutely anything... Believe it, cus it's true.
Please don't think your struggle is different to the rest of us... We are all designed the same and we all struggle
Phil

---------- Post added at 18:36 ---------- Previous post was at 18:23 ----------

Kimberley,
Yes, this is what I mean by being kind to yourself.
Yes I have a glass of wine some evenings, cus I need a break. But I try not to drink too regularly as it is also not the answer. I will admit I am having one tonight, which probably explains my last post a little, But hey, sometimes it's nice to have a rest.
The down side is the effect is temporary so I am in no way suggesting that we all turn to alcohol, all things in moderation.
And yes, I am not suggesting we all go sky diving. I get very anxious about public speaking. I have forced myself many times, but although avoiding is also not the answer, I am not going to be grief stricken if I decide to drop this from my life..
Phil

cloudbusting

03-04-14, 20:38

Great thread and a huge help for me tonight. Thank you x

xrachykinsx

03-04-14, 21:12

Really reassuring thread. I'm again having a bad few days. I struggle to work out whether it's my anxiety or my depression- they tend to bounce of eachother! Generally...I get on with life, despite the unsettling feeling in my tummy, I get on with everything I need to do. I go out, I play with my son, I do the housework, I cook the dinner...I just get on with it. It's hard and there are times where I just want to cry because I don't feel very good and I have at times had a little cry to my husband or my mum but I pick myself back up and I carry on. I am sure that this can be beaten, I totally get that it can't be forced. I've spent many months forcing myself not to think about it and failing miserably. I just let myself think about it now, and then I tell myself that it will get better. This is my first ever episode of depression & anxiety and I get angry at times how I managed to get like this. I definitely underestimated how cruel this illness is, how you can be so low and anxious when your life is actually pretty good. I'm on medication but it's not really helping me at the moment despite being upped to the max, i've been on an increase for just under 2weeks so hoping I have a bit more calm soon to help me tackle this last bit xx

MrAndy

03-04-14, 21:20

If people need reassurance that it works I was hospitalised for nearly three months and about as low as I could go,suicidal and crawling the walls with anxiety.I accepted this was how I was going to be for the foreseeable future and looked after myself a bit more than normal.Slowly I started to get better hour by hour day by day,somebody in my family who recovered from severe pnd told me to just carry on,I did and it worked.

xrachykinsx

03-04-14, 21:26

MrAndy

03-04-14, 21:29

I love your little signature at the bottom of your posts 'don't panic, put the kettle on'....a cuppa always makes me calm! lol

Your right though Andy, if you're not going to feel any better anytime soon...what do you do?...you're just going to have to get on with life whilst feeling like absolute sh!te....it's the only way I'm getting through- I am having good days though, but they are always followed by a few bad....it seems my anxiety is set off by the idea of 'being happy'....which seems so unfair! lol xx
It's cruel but carrying on is the only option,crawling up in a ball and feeling sorry for yourself won't help either.Your doing the right things which help by distraction ,you will get better because you have the right attitude

xrachykinsx

03-04-14, 21:39

I certainly hope so! I don't think my meds are particularly working so I'm kind of coping all by myself! My meds help me sleep though so I would miss that if I stopped...and no sleep does not help anxiety in the slightest! lol xx

phil6

03-04-14, 21:54

Hi xrachykinsx
Give yourself a big hug as you are very strong.
Accepting is the opposite of control and carrying on as if you are not anxious is a great way of practicing acceptance. Not allowing your anxiety to determine what you do or don't do is exactly right. Not sure what meds you are on but if they don't help then you need to go back to the GP.
WELL DONE
PHIL

Charlotteee89

03-04-14, 21:55

I've had a horrible 7-8 weeks of Anxiety.. but I think I'm through the worse of it now but I still struggle to not be 'convinced' by certain obsessive thoughts & I hate the depressive mood that follows these thoughts. I'm scared of feeling depressed. I think I'm more fearful of how the thoughts are making me feel rather than the thoughts themselves now.

I don't know how to be rational & 'un-convince' myself of these thoughts, I find it very hard to not be affected by them.

Any advice on how to not be 'convinced' by obsessive thoughts?

xrachykinsx

03-04-14, 22:00

I'm the same Charlotte. It's the fear of how I'm feeling that's been my main battle. I have struggled to 'just be', to just feel at peace with myself. I'm practicing now though, I do have days where I feel suprisingly calm so it can only get better.

Thanks Phil, that's exactly the thing, I think to myself, I either go upstairs curl up in bed and stay there, or I just carry on even if this anxiety comes with me. I have times where i'm so distracted that I forget about the anxiety which is great and much relief for my mind. I still struggle to stop worrying about how I feel, but I just need to keep busier really...once I get myself back to work, and socialising more, I think the anxiety will be pushed right to the back and I will forget so much easier :) xx

phil6

03-04-14, 22:03

Hi Charlotte
Thoughts are just another symptom of anxiety, no different to the physical sensations.
The only advise given to deal with thoughts like these are to allow them but then let them go. You are not your thoughts and they are just words that your mind creates. You will feel them as physical reactions because they are acknowledged in the brain in the same way as reality... But this doesn't mean they are real. Once again you give them power by fearing them or trying to push them away... You cannot stop thoughts coming, you can only treat them as passing thoughts with no significance.
Mindfulness meditation helps with learning to visualise thoughts as clouds passing in the sky. The sky is massive and the clouds just come and go. You are the sky, not the clouds.

MrAndy

03-04-14, 22:16

I had terrible intrusive thoughts,I gave in to them and just let them come and go .I gave them no attention and eventually they faded away.Patience really is a virtue when recovering from anxiety,it taks time but you will heal naturally

xrachykinsx

03-04-14, 22:25

Tell your thoughts to 'do their worst'... and you will find that nothing gets any worse. It's easier said than done, and I'm not perfect..I still have moments where I feel weak but I have learnt better to just go 'so what' because that's all you can do in the end xx

Charlotteee89

03-04-14, 22:27

I'm the same Charlotte. It's the fear of how I'm feeling that's been my main battle. I have struggled to 'just be', to just feel at peace with myself. I'm practicing now though, I do have days where I feel suprisingly calm so it can only get better.

"The fear of how I'm feeling" Yep that's exactly it! When I'm feeling really anxious or really low about my obsessive thoughts I get even more obsessive thoughts & then I get scared of feeling severely depressed as I'm scared of how that will affect me.

Hi Charlotte
Thoughts are just another symptom of anxiety, no different to the physical sensations.
The only advise given to deal with thoughts like these are to allow them but then let them go. You are not your thoughts and they are just words that your mind creates. You will feel them as physical reactions because they are acknowledged in the brain in the same way as reality... But this doesn't mean they are real. Once again you give them power by fearing them or trying to push them away... You cannot stop thoughts coming, you can only treat them as passing thoughts with no significance.
Mindfulness meditation helps with learning to visualise thoughts as clouds passing in the sky. The sky is massive and the clouds just come and go. You are the sky, not the clouds.

Yes, I've read to 'allow them in' not to push them away or block them out. The more you allow yourself to think of something the boring it will get in the end. If you try & block it out the more your mind will rebel & push them forward even more. It's just so difficult to allow them in as the thoughts make me feel so low & I'm scared of feeling low. & The more I allow them in the more I allow my mind to find 'reasons' for these thoughts which convince me even more! It's a horrid cycle.

Interesting though - The thoughts being a symptom of anxiety. Never really thought of it that way! But these obsessive thoughts did come after my initial panic attack 8 weeks ago that triggered all this mental chaos!

I can go a few days with virtually no obsessive thoughts but then BAM they appear again & knock me sideways! :wacko:

aprilmoon

03-04-14, 22:31

Thank goodness that there's others out there like me.They are just a symptom. .

cwright

03-04-14, 23:54

Charlotteee89

04-04-14, 00:19

charlotte...mine started the same time as yours! and i am struggling, but it is interesting to think of the thoughts as a symptom, instead of the cause. i too am scared to feel low...and i try to let the thoughts come- but today the physical feelings were too much for me, and i didn't do a very good job.
what else are you doing to try to help yourself? i honestly thought i'd be better two months later...sigh...guess not.
Cindy

---------- Post added at 16:54 ---------- Previous post was at 16:53 ----------

and one more question. how is it possible to say "so what" and "do your worst" when you're worried that they WILL do their worst and give you another panic attack at the worst time possible! struggling with this though process...
Cindy

Awww :hugs: I think my panic attack was a build up of 3-4 months of stress & a more Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I've had SAD for years but that's mainly gone but this is far worse! Never have I felt so out of control of my life. It's completely threw me.

I am too trying to 'allow' my thoughts through - mine are obsessive thoughts about being lonely & having no friends at the moment (neither which I actually think are true deep down) & there's triggers everywhere! Once the obsessive thoughts come BAM I instantly feel low & that brings more anxiety as I'm so scared of what could happen if I do indeed develop a more severe depression. :/ Those thoughts, like you, make me feel so panicky! I already can get horrible intrusive thoughts about death as it is!

I'm just really trying to not let my obsessive thoughts convince me but it's so hard! Some days are harder than others. Certain things like being tired make the obsessional thoughts come anyway. It doesn't help that distractions don't always distract me so I try & change my routine a little, routine can bore the heck out of ya when you're suffering from anxiety! It does me. Like today I went into town rather than stay at home on my day off work, it did help.

I definitely feel better 2 months on, more 'aware' that my thoughts are just anxiety but I'm still struggling to not be convinced by them. I'm not getting as panicky now either. But I am struggling with Anticipatory Anxiety. I'm kinda wondering what feeling 'normal' is now too! Can't remember what that feels like anymore ugh.

cwright

04-04-14, 00:30

Awww :hugs: I think my panic attack was a build up of 3-4 months of stress & a more Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I've had SAD for years but that's mainly gone but this is far worse! Never have I felt so out of control of my life. It's completely threw me.

I am too trying to 'allow' my thoughts through - mine are obsessive thoughts about being lonely & having no friends at the moment (neither which I actually think are true deep down) & there's triggers everywhere! Once the obsessive thoughts come BAM I instantly feel low & that brings more anxiety as I'm so scared of what could happen if I do indeed develop a more severe depression. :/ Those thoughts, like you, make me feel so panicky! I already can get horrible intrusive thoughts about death as it is!

I'm just really trying to not let my obsessive thoughts convince me but it's so hard! Some days are harder than others. Certain things like being tired make the obsessional thoughts come anyway. It doesn't help that distractions don't always distract me so I try & change my routine a little, routine can bore the heck out of ya when you're suffering from anxiety! It does me. Like today I went into town rather than stay at home on my day off work, it did help.

I definitely feel better 2 months on, more 'aware' that my thoughts are just anxiety but I'm still struggling to not be convinced by them. I'm not getting as panicky now either. But I am struggling with Anticipatory Anxiety. I'm kinda wondering what feeling 'normal' is now too! Can't remember what that feels like anymore ugh.

wow, we are for sure very similar!!! my intrusive thoughts revolve around some tooth issues i've had for a few months. and now i have to get a wisdom tooth out and the thoughts are scaring me to death. it's all i can think about - and it does get worse at night when i'm home from work, or my kids are in bed. mine too, built up and up...and then i had a health issue and it triggered everything. totally threw me! i still am so angry that this has happened to me...struggling to accept that i will just wake up and feel like garbage and be okay with it.
i'm glad i don't have death thoughts- but i think that mostly comes from being religious...not sure though, i guess those thoughts could be about anything...
anyhow, this is hard, but you know? i'm so glad there are others sharing their experiences and willing to talk to me!!!!
:hugs:
cindy

Charlotteee89

04-04-14, 02:16

wow, we are for sure very similar!!! my intrusive thoughts revolve around some tooth issues i've had for a few months. and now i have to get a wisdom tooth out and the thoughts are scaring me to death. it's all i can think about - and it does get worse at night when i'm home from work, or my kids are in bed. mine too, built up and up...and then i had a health issue and it triggered everything. totally threw me! i still am so angry that this has happened to me...struggling to accept that i will just wake up and feel like garbage and be okay with it.
i'm glad i don't have death thoughts- but i think that mostly comes from being religious...not sure though, i guess those thoughts could be about anything...
anyhow, this is hard, but you know? i'm so glad there are others sharing their experiences and willing to talk to me!!!!
:hugs:
cindy

Mine too get worse at night, when I have nothing really to do. :/ I also have an association with my house & feeling lonely, trapped & imprisoned as that's how I felt when I first had my panic attack 8 weeks ago.

I'm also angry with myself! I do NOT want to be feeling like this & I just wish it would all go away (which probably makes it all worse) so I can get on with & enjoy my life.

I know, it makes you feel less crazy when there's others who are going through the same thing. :hugs: :flowers: xx

cwright

04-04-14, 02:32

seriously it really helps knowing i'm not alone. my hub is trying to be supportive, but he wants me to be back to normal and doesn't know how to help. same with me!! sheesh. sooo frustrating, i have a fear that for some reason it won't go away and i will end up on the drug merry go round for years to come. that fills me with such a sense of dread!!! i just don't know what to expect. it's hard to go to bed at night now, knowing i'm going to wake up feeling like this. and that also brings on a sense of depression. is it true that this can be fixed? naturally, but our thoughts? i just don't know.
Cindy

phil6

04-04-14, 07:37

Cindy and Charlotte,
I am reading your posts as like you the mornings can be a shock. I have been awake since 5am, and after retiring last night feeling calm and better, it feels like dread now.
Yes it's really hard not to get hooked by the feelings and start struggling to feel better. At this moment I feel very nauseous, and this makes me want to withdraw from life as I feel very unsure of myself. How am I going to go out to a lunch invite today?? How can I possibly cope? I have never been actually sick, but I urge and gag. It all just adds to the anxiety.
These are the thoughts that are running wild now. The thoughts are bound to increase the feelings. And the feelings reinforce the thoughts!
Somehow, we need to step back and realise what is happening. Observe it. It's a process of practicing breaking into this loop. I know I cannot change the physical feelings directly. I can try and take a deep breath and carry on slowly, and try and let the thoughts go rather than take part in the thinking.
I know that I post as if I find this easy... I don't . I find this as hard as you do and I regularly fail miserably at this.
The thing is, I have never come up with an alternative. There is no way to turn all this off unless you turn to drink or drug yourself up with tranquillisers. Not really a good idea.
Recovery is a painful process. It seems to involve going through these feelings time and time again until they become less fearful. That's all I can try and stick to.
Phil

MrAndy

04-04-14, 08:33

this might sound to simple but when i was at my worst i would go for long walks ,it really cleared my head and burnt off the anxiety.Keep going people recovery will come in small doses and eventually take over

xrachykinsx

04-04-14, 08:44

cloudbusting

04-04-14, 08:54

This thread and all of your posts are such a massive help to me, the best thread on NMP at the moment.

I want to do a 'reset' today for myself. I have just had two weeks of poor health and today is the first day that I have woken up with a sense of purpose and an idea of where I am going in my life ... I'm not sure that I truly believe that but I am going to go ahead with it anyway.

Today I am going to start not thinking about things so much. Instead of 'what if' thinking I am just going to have an idea to do something and just do it (hope Nike don't sue me :roflmao:). This will be incredibly difficult, *incredibly*, but I know that you all know that too.

It's the morning here. Lets just accept what the day throws at us. If we start to think 'what if' then be aware that we are thinking that but then move on and do the 'thing' anyway. Look back afterwards and realise that the 'what if' we were so afraid of didn't materialise anyway.

That's what I am gonna try today.

Lisa x

---------- Post added at 08:54 ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 ----------

Great post rachykins x

MrAndy

04-04-14, 09:11

well done Lisa ,i bet you have a productive day and it ends up ok lets face they always do but anxiety trys to trick us into feeling bad.
Go for it ! :)

phil6

04-04-14, 09:21

Thanks for that Lisa... You are dead right.
I am really struggling to reassure myself this morning. It is strange that I did my best yesterday not to dwell on my anxiety and take part in the day but it never fails to embroil me in all the what ifs etc in the mornings. I really feel sick and this always fills me with what ifs. I am going out this morning and going to the gym, then out to lunch. All sound good doesn't it. But when I have just forced down some breakfast and it is not sitting well it is so easy to start descending into self pity and panic about how I am going to get through the day. A big thought at this moment is how on earth am I going to eat a meal out feeling like this.
I look at the clock at its 9:15 am. You tell me why I am worried about my lack of appetite now when the meal isn't till 1pm. Then I think so what if I still feel sick then... What can I do.
Now I am sure you will all read this and think just eat what you can, or leave it. But these are my fears and like your fears they stick around and it's difficult to disengage from them.
I keep posting about acceptance and not believing thoughts, but I just wanted to say that I struggle with this as much as anyone. I really need my little voice to kick in now and tell me it's OK to feel sick and anxious for now.. It will pass.
And Andy, you are right, I will probably be fine... If only I could really be sure of this. We anxious sufferers do like to be certain!
Phil

cloudbusting

04-04-14, 10:35

Hi Andy and Phil

I have just got back from a (short !) dog walk. My anxiety level at the start was about 4/10, 0/10 when I had finished. Just called my Ma ( she doesn't know about the anxiety, she lives a long way from me) she's been worried about my chest infection. Felt ok speaking to her but then got a wave of panic and said goodbye quickly and hung up ... grrr ...

Phil6, you know that you are psyching yourself up for your lunchdate. You also know, I hope, that it's perfectly ok to feel nauseous. It's not very nice and you'd rather not but it's ok if you are, let it be. I hope you still manage to enjoy yourself, it's a huge thing that you are getting out and doing it anyway so you deserve a pat on the back just for that !

Andy, I have a few 'obstacles' today, nothing major but there is a supermarket shop looming a little later (deep joy :shades:) plus, as it's Easter holiday time, there is the added 'stress' and guilt of trying to think of something to do with my daughter that will be in my comfort zone and that I shall be able to manage for her :wacko: Mind you, she won't care if she can just play on her laptop all day #parentfail

OK, have a good rest of the day folks ! Shall check in here later to see how we all got on :yesyes:

Lisa x

Veebear

04-04-14, 11:22

Hey all,

Like a few of you have said, it's great to know I'm not alone - what a relief!
I too find it hard to 'let go' of the fear. It's always there in the background, I've spent thousands on therapies and am on a cocktail of meds and it's just SO frustrating. I can't even pinpoint what causes it, it's like it's just always there and a part of m, I wake up and I feel fear, all I want to do is stay in and hide. And I'm so tired, all the time.

All you can do is keep going, and I do. But sometimes, it IS hard.

Hugs
Vx

cloudbusting

04-04-14, 11:38

:hugs: For Veebear x

Cheesemonster13

04-04-14, 12:15

Yes, I find the acceptance part almost impossible to get to grips with. I would love to be able to switch off the (almost) constant internal dialogue. :scared15:

Just re-read what I posted, and I thought I'd better amend it in case anyone thought I was suicidal. I've started using distraction (reading and writing) to get away from my endless worrying thoughts.

Charlotteee89

04-04-14, 14:59

I don't normally wake up till about 12pm as my sleeping pattern is terrible! I'm tired in the evenings whilst at work then after I've finished after about an hour or so I'm wide awake! Literally have to force myself to go to sleep at 3-4am in the morning. :wacko: When I do wake up I'm not too bad to be honest, but questions like "How am I feeling today?" "Am I anxious?" come into my head but I try & block them out & relax. I find my anxiety gets worse throughout the day. There's triggers everywhere for my obsessive thoughts which doesn't exactly help. But then I find when I am faced with a 'trigger' I'm already obsessively thinking as I'm aware it causes my obsessive thinking... :doh: I hate anxiety cycles!

I have a busy weekend this weekend so I'm trying to focus on that & not over-think everything.. Easier said than done!

phil6

04-04-14, 17:16

Just thought I would update you...
Went to the gym, anxiety slowly reduced to a manageable level... Went out to lunch and was laughing and joking and enjoying the meal.... Typical.
When will I ever learn to drop all this anticipation!
Phil

sophrbk

04-04-14, 18:06

Hi everyone,

First post on here, although I've been reading the stuff on the forums for ages! I signed up just so I could let you all know that it was really helpful reading about everyone's experiences on this thread today, particularly the parts about accepting anxious thoughts; it totally complements what my counsellor was saying this morning about accepting that thoughts can be scary and allowing myself to be frightened as a way to move forward.

Suffering massively from general anxiety disorder at the minute with a lot of really dark intrusive thoughts, leading to having to have a sick note for work to take some time off from my long commute! (As an aside - anyone else find commuting to be particularly bad for intrusive thoughts? Too much time to be introspective, I think). Anyway, it's good to be able to read about the experiences of others, even though I wouldn't wish panic or anxiety on anyone.

I thought I'd also share something my counsellor was discussing with me this morning (though I'm sure you've all heard it before if you've been to therapy/ done your research etc.) - but because anxiety releases the same chemicals as excitement, one way of dealing with anxiety symptoms is to tell yourself that you accept the feeling as one of excitement. It feels really stupid doing it at first, but I used it earlier when I was really starting to freak out, leapt off my bed and told my cat I was "REALLY excited"... and had a bath :)

MrAndy

04-04-14, 18:12

cloudbusting

04-04-14, 19:38

That's great Phil ! Thanks for coming on here to let us know how you got on, I had a feeling it would turn out as it did :winks:

Hi sophrbk

I hear ya with regards to the commute to work. I don't think we do 'waiting' very well, gives us too much time to think, as you said. Would you listen to music or an audiobook or something ?

Your counsellor sounds great, by the way.

I have had an ok day really. I got everything done that I needed to including the Tesco shop (yuk, yuk, yuk). Went with my husband who has a really annoying habit of running over my toes and into the back of my legs with the trolley:lac:
I did dash a bit, I wasn't very 'in the moment' and 'accepting' *sigh*
Nevermind, I can always practice again tomorrow.

Anyone got plans for tonight ?

Lisa x

phil6

05-04-14, 09:05

All,
I know there have been a lot of people learning from this thread. It has a lot of great advice and is encouraging and reassuring.
Acceptance is a simple method for recovery but it is not pain free. In fact we only get to practice acceptance when we are feeling anxious.
When there are spells of feeling better, there is a determination and belief that we can do this, and we can, but when anxious it becomes apparent that it needs a lot of practice and there is much doubt. Doubt, negativity, fear al all part of the disorder and we all fear that we are failing at these times.
I am having a good day today, probably as a result of having a good afternoon yesterday, facing up to some of my fears and carrying on. But in reality there will be anxious times ahead. It seems the journey has to include blips, and painful days.
I also think, however unique we feel our situations and sensations are, we are all facing the same journey.
It would be excellent if people can post what holds them back, and more importantly what helped to move on. Keep it positive!
It will really help everyone if we can help each other to keep going, through those stuck moments when we flounder and we loose the faith.
Phil

cloudbusting

05-04-14, 09:27

Hi everyone

You know, I couldn't wait to get on here this morning to see how everyone was doing, to read the successes and the not so good stuff. I'm not understood very well in my 'offline' life and this place has become a real haven for me that I am very grateful for.

Have been up about an hour today, slept ok.

I can feel, however, minor heart palps (I have HA centred on concerns about my heart) blipping around. I just ate a banana (good for the potassium) and am sipping red bush tea. I am trying not to think about it. I want to go out today somewhere nice with my daughter. We live in a beautiful part of the world and we hardly ever go anywhere as I am so scared of *something* happening when we are out :weep:

It's just rubbish. I don't feel very 'accepting' yet today. I'm sorry for such a down post. Any ideas how I can turn today around ? :)

Lisa x

phil6

05-04-14, 09:41

Hi Lisa,
Yes, no blame or judgement from me, but you are allowing your fear of what might happen stop you doing things. Anxiety persists if you allow it to decide what you do or don't do.
Go out today without any expectation of feeling good or bad. You have to start teaching yourself that although you may get all these nasty sensations, nothing.. NOTHING is actually going to do you harm.
This is the pain I keep banging on about. We all want to do things feeling great. That's often not possible. How can it be when we are so scared of what might happen. Being scared is what is making us feel this way.
But we can move forward by DOING things. Not sky diving but ordinary things. And if you feel awful then that is when you can feel it and learn that you won't actually die. The trick is to take a breath, losen up that tight hold you have on yourself (I find my shoulder raise up towards my ears) and feel like running away but don't run!
Who knows, maybe this will be a lightbulb moment, but you need to do things to get there.
Good luck, take a risk!
Phil

cloudbusting

05-04-14, 11:34

Thanks so much for that, Phil. I am taking your words out with me today !

Have walked the pooch. Thought, ok, what can we do today ? My daughter is disabled and has mild learning difficulties, this does impact on the kinds of stuff that we can do. So, we are going to the local art gallery with our sketchbooks and then we are gonna have a bite to eat in the cafe :D

I have no expectations for today but just knowing that we shall be out and doing something interesting has lifted my mood.

Hope everyone has a good day today ... see you later !

Lisa x

MrAndy

05-04-14, 11:55

Feel the fear and do it anyway,you will enjoy the time with your daughter
Everything will be ok

phil6

05-04-14, 18:35

Let us know how you got on Lisa...

Charlotteee89

05-04-14, 23:34

Having a bad day today. =/ I thought I was doing okay but it's all got worse again. I can literally have 1-2 days of feeling good & wondering what the hell was all the obsessive thinking about to then having 2-4 days of the obsessive thinking! :unsure: At the moment I'm obsessing over being alone & not having many friends to hang out with especially since I'm not doing anything tonight (I feel really annoyed about having no plans on a Sat night even though pre 8 weeks ago it didn't really bother me!) I'm hating the idea of being stuck in my house with nothing to do or no one to really talk too (apart from my parents) It's driving me mad! Independence was something I was really good at but since my anxiety kicked in I HATE being alone especially in my house where I get horrible anxiety over feeling trapped, imprisoned & alone. :scared15: Seeing groups of female friends buying alcohol etc tonight at work didn't help matters! Made me feel so jealous & low. I've got plans tomorrow though.. Thank god!

EDIT: Also, I seem to be obsessively thinking about whether people think I have no friends, like wondering what people think I'm doing with my life, who my friends are etc, do people think I'm lonely? These thoughts freak me out & make me go "OMG". I hate these thoughts... I just want them to go away. It's like I'm obsessing over my social status... Ugh!

phil6

06-04-14, 07:43

Charlotte,
The truth is that it's the anxiety that brings all these thoughts of inability to cope. You said that your fearful thoughts didn't mean anything when you were feeling good. And yet we believe these thought and get caught up in them when we are feeling anxious.
When you are anxious, a different part of your mind takes over and it hijacks our thoughts. But the real us, is still there. It's just been pushed into the background. This happens because we are in fight or flight mode. We are in survival mode.
But with practice, and a lot of practice, we can learn to step back and observe the thoughts and let them go. It's hard because they are believable and feel real... But they are not. They are just anxious thinking.
We have to allow these thoughts and feelings, but try not to react to them with more fear. The only way to do this is to understand what is happening and to take a step away. Say to yourself, " this is just my anxiety story again" and remember these are not meaningful and will pass.
I think it's very normal. I am feeling anxious this morning and playing my stories again. All the What ifs come.... But I did this yesterday and the day before, and none of the what ifs happened and I also realised that even if they did, it wouldn't be the end if the world and althogh I cannot feel it right now, I was feeling Ok most of yesterday, and maybe I will again today.
It's learning to think, this will pass, and if it doesn't then that's ok aswell. Not nice but, so what!

Phil

cloudbusting

06-04-14, 08:43

Good morning !

Thanks for asking, we had a lovely afternoon yesterday :D Went to the museum and art gallery, had a cheeky McDonalds for lunch :lac: *tut tut* (my daughter has been a veggie for several months now and we hardly ever go to the dreaded McD's but, what the heck ...) and then a wander around one of those 'bargain' stores, bought some 'tat' :D

Now, how did I feel ? Fine at the museum, anxious whilst waiting to be served at McD's and I was worried sick about walking around the shop (busy shops, for me = lots of anxious thoughts and sensations). Almost changed my mind but my daughter really wanted to go in so we did - and it was *fine* once we got in there ! I deliberately changed my thoughts from 'What if ... ?' to 'So what !' and it helped enormously. I also stopped thinking of it as a 'test' and changed it to a 'practice'. I still had the edge of panic feelings, shoulders up around my ears (I do that too, Phil !) but I didn't back off, I did it. :yesyes:

We have made some plans for the rest of the week and next weekend now, too.

When I got home I started work on the book 'Get Out Of Your Mind & Into Your Life' that was flagged up by someone here on NMP. It uses 'Acceptance and Commitment Therapy' or ACT for short. This is what it says -

This work features step-by step mindfulness and acceptance exercises for effective relief from emotional pain. This book develops acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT), a revolutionary and exciting new direction in psychotherapy, into step-by-step exercises that readers can use to get relief from emotional pain. Written by ACT's founding theorist, it offers a self-help programme proven to be effective for coping with a range of problems, from anxiety to depression, eating disorders to poor self-esteem.

So far it has really shone a light on stuff that I hadn't been able to figure out for myself in my addled brain and so I'm hoping that working through it, plus am starting to see a psychotherapist this week, will be a good two pronged approach in tackling this.

Hi Charlotte

I can only agree with Phil once again when he says that the anxiety is trying to trick you - it does do that. Concentrate on the days when things felt 'good' and remind yourself that you *can* have days and times during the day when you feel like that. Also, when I was younger, I thought that there was nothing worse than being in on a Saturday night ! I used to feel like a proper sad sack ! I'm glad that you have plans for later. If you do have a night in is there anything that you can occupy yourself with ? Even allow yourself to have, say, 30 minutes of worrying about stuff and then packing it away mentally and then getting on with something else ? If intrusive thoughts start to trickle back (as they do) you can write it down and save it for your 30 minute session the following day. Do you think that could help ?

Hi Phil

I think you have a good attitude there, it actually sounds like a very positive start to the day to me :) Do you have any plans for today ? I am the only one up right now so I shall work on my ACT book a bit more.

Have a good one, everybody.

Lisa x

MrAndy

06-04-14, 09:26

Well done Lisa !

cloudbusting

06-04-14, 12:30

Thanks Mr Andy ! Blimey I went on a bit there, didn't I ? :whistles:

phil6

06-04-14, 18:39

Hi Lisa,
Well done...
I have been out doing what I do for my local rugby club all day. It's been a very long day. The day has been up and down. Practicing well and even getting spells of feeling I am getting the hang of accepting.
But there are also spells, especially after it got to late afternoon, when I feel on the edge of despairing. I have to admit I was rushing around and getting in a real sweat because I was feeling a bit like I wanted to go home as the day went on.
What really disappoints me as once I got home I felt like I really wanted to just go upstairs and bawl my eyes out. I have resisted doing this but I don't seem to be able to gain any confidence about how I got through the day taday. I also seem to have a warped memory of how the day went. I am sure that there were spells of feeling not too bad but my mind at the moment is telling me it's been hell all day.
I think I have a bad habit of exagerating things.
I just cannot seem to get a balanced view of the day at the moment. It is frustrating when it seems that when I am willing and doing my best not to react to anxiety it seems to go on all day.
Phil

Charlotteee89

06-04-14, 18:57

Hi Charlotte

I can only agree with Phil once again when he says that the anxiety is trying to trick you - it does do that. Concentrate on the days when things felt 'good' and remind yourself that you *can* have days and times during the day when you feel like that. Also, when I was younger, I thought that there was nothing worse than being in on a Saturday night ! I used to feel like a proper sad sack ! I'm glad that you have plans for later. If you do have a night in is there anything that you can occupy yourself with ? Even allow yourself to have, say, 30 minutes of worrying about stuff and then packing it away mentally and then getting on with something else ? If intrusive thoughts start to trickle back (as they do) you can write it down and save it for your 30 minute session the following day. Do you think that could help ?

Have a good one, everybody.

Lisa x

Charlotte,
The truth is that it's the anxiety that brings all these thoughts of inability to cope. You said that your fearful thoughts didn't mean anything when you were feeling good. And yet we believe these thought and get caught up in them when we are feeling anxious.
When you are anxious, a different part of your mind takes over and it hijacks our thoughts. But the real us, is still there. It's just been pushed into the background. This happens because we are in fight or flight mode. We are in survival mode.
But with practice, and a lot of practice, we can learn to step back and observe the thoughts and let them go. It's hard because they are believable and feel real... But they are not. They are just anxious thinking.
We have to allow these thoughts and feelings, but try not to react to them with more fear. The only way to do this is to understand what is happening and to take a step away. Say to yourself, " this is just my anxiety story again" and remember these are not meaningful and will pass.
I think it's very normal. I am feeling anxious this morning and playing my stories again. All the What ifs come.... But I did this yesterday and the day before, and none of the what ifs happened and I also realised that even if they did, it wouldn't be the end if the world and althogh I cannot feel it right now, I was feeling Ok most of yesterday, and maybe I will again today.
It's learning to think, this will pass, and if it doesn't then that's ok aswell. Not nice but, so what!

Phil

The loneliness/having no friends obsessive thoughts are awful as there's so many triggers! Everything I say & do seems to trigger an obsessive thought about it. :wacko:

Like today I've been out with a meal with 2 friends from work but I'm still having a hard time believing I even have friends. When they're talking about their other friends I'm sitting there like "Um.." as I don't have many friends outside work & it's like a knife in my stomach, where as before this bout of anxiety those thoughts never even entered my head. :dry: It's really frustrating me. I can't even enjoy actually doing something without the thoughts being there! It's like I've opened a can of worms in my head & can't shut it back up!

Interesting about a different part of your mind taking over when you're feeling anxious which makes your thoughts mean something different... Didn't think of it that way!

Yeah I think I was so miffed as I really don't want to be at home as I know my obsessive thoughts will start harassing me! Anticipatory Anxiety? But I was actually okay in the end.. Today has been worse ironically! My friend from work is coming round in a bit for a girly night so that's good. :)

I do try & distract myself/occupy myself but I think the things I would normally do I get anxious over as I think my anxiety is associating them with a lot of different stuff... Routine is not my anxiety's best friend right now! Maybe I should try doing something different when I'm alone? But not something that will become a safety behaviour. & Maybe I should just 'allow' my thoughts in? I suppose the more you try & block them out the more they'll come.

Gosh, I hate this! What annoys me the most is that I am aware it's all obsessive thoughts but I still can't help but be 'convinced' by these thoughts. :mad:

phil6

06-04-14, 19:48

Does anyone else feel this way too.
If I wake in the morning and get very anxious and add fear to the situation until it feels like it will overwhelm me, I seem to reach a peak, which can be absolutely horrible, then bring myself back from the pits and start the day with some kind of determination to really try accepting. Maybe the day turns out well.
Today I left the house with as much acceptance as I could muster without fear. I practiced discarding thoughts about not being able to cope. Made great efforts to not avoid any situations, chatted to people , had some lunch, carried on all afternoon, feeling quite anxious but doing my best to allow it, and keep reminding myself that it's just anxiety etc etc.
Then as the day wears on, I really start to feel and think that it isn't fair. There seems to be little reward for all this suffering and effort. My stomach seems to churn with more vigour. Then of course self pity starts to rear it's head. Why me? What am I doing wrong? I can't do this for much longer.
Of course I do carry on, and I don't show any sign of anxiety to anyone. But I start to rush. I start to want to run away and get back home. I don't, but I want to.
Is this self pity, because as soon as I get in my car and am alone on my way home, i feel absolute despair. Nobody is aware of how hard it has been. I looked and acted like Mr Confident and I have a sort of need to tell someone! Now this is invariably my wife when I get home... But you have done so well she says. You did everything and you did cope. Yes I did but why can't I feel like it was a success? Why do I feel like it was all worthless. It makes me feel like a victim.
This has to be unhelpful... Why can't I pat myself on the back as despair seems to cause a real setback.
Phil

Phuzella

06-04-14, 21:11

Do you write a diary at all Phil?

phil6

06-04-14, 22:18

I did start to, but gave it up.

Sands

06-04-14, 22:44

Hi Phil. I can totally relate to how ur feeling, it takes a lot out of u going out like u did today. From my experience I had to just keep doing it and I despaired a lot. All I can say is it gets easier. I don't feel like that now, I have like flashbacks of my suffering which I just try to pass through now. Every time u face things like u did today is a step closer to getting over this. I know it doesn't feel like it when ur in it but u really need to try to accept that u will feel like crap for now. U won't always u are doing all the right things. When u feel a bit better it will become clearer
Sarah x

cloudbusting

07-04-14, 08:44

Is this self pity, because as soon as I get in my car and am alone on my way home, i feel absolute despair. Nobody is aware of how hard it has been. I looked and acted like Mr Confident and I have a sort of need to tell someone! Now this is invariably my wife when I get home... But you have done so well she says. You did everything and you did cope. Yes I did but why can't I feel like it was a success? Why do I feel like it was all worthless. It makes me feel like a victim.
This has to be unhelpful... Why can't I pat myself on the back as despair seems to cause a real setback.
Phil

Hi Phil

Well, I read this and thought how brilliantly you had done as well. A whole day of running around and the added stress of putting on a 'brave face' - no wonder you felt like a wrung out rag by the end of it. You mustn't underestimate what an effort all of that was.

Is it because you hope and expect to be able to do all of this without the anxious feelings ? Would only that make it a 'successful' day for you ? A person *not* suffering with GAD would doubtless experience some anxious moments with a day like you had yesterday, I am sure.

Remember, our 'Anxiety Dials' are set at '11' (Spinal Tap ref :winks:) right now and so everything is amplified, the thoughts, the physical sensations, the emotions are all churning about like a big soup.

Do you have someone in your group of mates that you can trust and confide in ? I'm not going to fall for the stereotype of the male rugby crowd being an uncouth lot (although I have seen plenty of grown men cry during the Six Nations :shades:) ... but it might be worth finding just one or two friends that you can take into your trust and tell them. When I went out with my girlfriends last week it helped me so, so much to finally tell them why I haven't seen them since Christmas.

I haven't read your history so I'm sorry but are you having counselling ? Phuzella mentioned a diary, I think that would really benefit you, even if it just holds fragmented thoughts. Look back at your entry for last week when you were gearing up for your lunch and remember how good you felt then.

Working through this 'ACT' book, I am learning that suffering and pain are part of the human condition. Everybody, without exception, feels them and it is our attitude towards suffering and our willingness to accept it as being OK that is the key. It can't change overnight and it can't change without lots of practice as it goes against human nature to willingly accept something that makes you feel 'bad'.

Now, if I start to write posts that sound like a 'Hallmark' card feel free to kick me up the bum.

Have a good day, folks.

Lisa x

MrAndy

07-04-14, 08:50

Morning Phil
I think Lisa has hit on something,one thing I had to do when I was at my worst was lower my expectations.Especially at work where I stepped down from a senior managers role,I now take one day at a time and just happy to get through the day.Lowering my expectations for now has really helped me become more calm.
HTH

phil6

07-04-14, 10:28

Hi Lisa, and Andy,
Thanks for your responses.
Lisa, yes I completed my CBT a month ago.. I have also had therapy and tried medication but am not on any now.
I think you are both right. I do measure my success on acceptance on how I am feeling. In other words if I am feeling mounting anxiety I tend to blame myself as I am obviously not accepting. Also yes, I do try and get through these days without anxiety as I sort of feel that if I am accepting then I shouldn't be feeling so bad.
These are issues I need to remember. The trick would be not worry whether I am anxious or not. I seem to still fear that it's going to get out of hand.
There are a couple of people who are aware that I suffer but I always feel very awkward when asked, as I was yesterday, "how are you these days... Better?" I answered, not too bad thanks.
I am in between doing well and having blips. Mindfullness and knowledge has made me very aware of what is happening with my thinking but the danger with me is I will very much overthink things. When I feel anxiety bubbling up I immediately start to go through all the strategies I have learned. This in itself is focusing on the anxiety and before I know it I am running through all sorts to stop the anxiety. It can be a relief to suddenly realise that I don't need to get rid of the anxiety and keep it as simple as that. I also start to rush everything like as if finishing what I am doing can give me time to spend on dealing with the way I am feeling.
I am so very aware of all these pitfalls, yet never fail to fall for them. I also come running straight to NMP to try and find some reassurance.
I think I will start a diary again. Just to do at the end of the day as a record as I do quickly forget the good days, whether that be with or without anxiety.
Phil

phil6

07-04-14, 17:35

Hi all,
Well, it's been a rubbish day. I think the disappointment of setting myself a goal of no longer breaking down and despairing gets me to a place where I break down and despair. I am very capable of really disappointing myself and then feeling like I have failed again. Anxiety has a way of latching onto any opportunity to get intense and my mind certainly plays along.
I did start the day with some determination to get back on track and start accepting. I visited the gym but after lunch I could feel myself being swamped by thoughts that I find acceptance too difficult. Everyone else can do it but not me. Then I feel lost.
I also think that when I have had a long day feeling anxious even if I have not reacted too badly to it, that it has damaged me somehow.
I really do measure success by how I am feeling. Is that the opposite of acceptance or what.!
Anyway after feeling really sorry for myself, here I am back on the Internet trying to find new hope. I do feel confused about challenging my thoughts or just letting them pass. I am also overthinking again, tying myself in knots mentally. It all adds to the discomfort.
I think I will try and accept this as another blip. I do give myself stick when I feel like this and that's not good.
I always think, there will be tough days, but when they come it feels like slipping right back.
I say to myself it's ok to feel anxious. This is really hard when it gets so intense. I am also not sure what the thoughts are that make it mount like this. They are fleeting and maybe I cannot put them into words. It's a sort of mental feeling that I have anxiety, and it's serious. It is a repetitive thought about not being able to cope or being very different to everyone else. Like I have got myself into a hole which is too deep. That's the best I can come up with.
Just wanted to explain the reason for posting. It's to share my experience of feeling good, with a positive plan which is based on acceptance, and putting the leg work in feeling that given time I will recover and become less sensitised. Then trying to find a way of not keep falling off the wagon which may be all part of the journey but feels like having to regularly restart the plan from day 1. It's finding a way of staying true to the method even when it feels like it's not working.
Phil

sc0g

07-04-14, 19:16

i am feeling positive by the fact that you all have come to a point where you feel beeter,until recently (im 43) my problem was only minor but it seems to be getting worse and that annoys me,i think i have to stop being annoyed and just let it happen but thats easier said than done

cloudbusting

07-04-14, 20:18

I have struggled today, too. I'm not sure why - well, something that hasn't helped is a nagging pain around my ribcage and, as I am getting over a chest infection, I keep thinking it's pneumonia. My default setting is 'PANIC'.

I went to the supermarket earlier with absolutely no bother at all. I didn't dash around to get out like I usually do, I took my time and almost didn't realise I had achieved it until I was walking back to the car.

But suddenly, just now, I am overwhelmed with frightening thoughts and sensations and I have excused myself from sitting with the family just so I can calm myself down upstairs which is where I am now. I'm so disappointed.

Phil, when you are having a good day do you 'forget' how bad the anxiety feels and then it's like it hits you all over again like the first time ? That's what happens with me. I started a journal a few days ago just so I can remind myself of the good and not so good stuff. I did CBT too but I have forgotten a lot of it. It's like I take my eye off the ball for one minute and 'BAM'.

Sheesh. Tomorrow's another day, I suppose.

Lisa x

phil6

07-04-14, 22:26

Lisa,
Absolutely, when I feel good I don't see I have any problems. I feel confident that I will be able to cope with my anxiety and accept however I feel. I think the thing that's holding me back is the belief that every time it does come I don't cope with it very well. Therefore there is still a lot of fear attached to it.
And yes when I am anxious I really cannot feel or recall how well I felt even if that was recent.
I think I will start a diary to help with this.
I have experienced anxiety so many times I can't remember yet when it comes it's always devastating.
This particular spell has lasted well over a year and that's making it very hard as I have developed some bad memories and habits.
What always blows me away is after a really bad despairing day I manage to recover myself and go out this evening for my wife's birthday and enjoy a meal and some wine and have retired feeling quite good.
The ups and downs are really quite extreme.
Phil

Charlotteee89

07-04-14, 23:05

I've noticed especially today.. That general things like being tired which make you feel moody anyway makes my anxiety 10x worse. I'm constantly going to myself "Why am I feeling like this?" "Why am I so miserable today?" even though it's simply because I'm tired & bit fed up but my anxiety completely exaggerates it & makes it into something it's probably not. I have a fear of developing severe depression so any bad mood I'm in generally makes me freak out a little & makes my obsessive thoughts worse as I'm thinking "That's it I have depression, omg.."

Then because I'm in a bad mood anyway that opens a hole up for my obsessive thoughts anyway... So it all becomes a cycle. It's so annoying. :wacko:

MyNameIsTerry

08-04-14, 04:32

It is Charlotte, I've been there. It is a stage that you will go through but you can come out of it, bit by bit.

You need to be able to break the chain of thoughts and gain more control of them as well so that you can start to challenge, accept or change them.

Acceptance is a powerful tool but for myself, it was not enough and still isn't. I've found Mindfulness meditation an excellent way to break & control your mind better.

This is only my opinion, I know a lot of the guys & girls on here (especially the HA forum which seems appropriate) believe in acceptance far more than I do, I just found that it's less helpful in my case due to the OCD elements. I'm a big believer in trying different things because mental health is so diverse and there isn't a one size fits all solution. Try it all out until you find your main tools.

In your case, I really do think you will find it easier if you can ensure you are getting the nutrition you require otherwise you are already in a deficit and anxiety & depression love that breeding ground.

phil6

08-04-14, 07:26

Hi Terry,
I agree. I do mindfullness meditation and it has taught me to be more aware of when my mind is in story mode so I am more able to recognise when I am ruminating or caught up in mental what ifs.
I do find however, especially when I wake early and try and return to sleep that I get very caught up in efforts to try and stop thinking, or change my thinking, and I find myself taking part in a mental battleground. This seems to be once again trying to feel better, and it always adds to the anxiety.
The best thought seems to be the realisation that you cannot control how you feel as this thought can put a stop to all the mental efforts. But for me this lasts about 10 seconds before I start disliking the way I am feeling again and I start ruminating once more.
It's hard managing your mind, because we are all aware that it is our thinking that is causing the way we feel, so it is natural to try and fix ourselves through thought. But how many times have we been told that we cannot think ourselves better.
The despair is all in the mind. My mind wants to fix itself, gets in an awful state going round and round trying to come up with an answer and cannot reach that point. It can be very distressing. Mindfullness has taught me to recognise this when I am doing this. At least you can then realise that you are waiting your time. Sometimes it's quite a relief to just stop, and withdraw from the spinning. By that I mean realising that there is no answer... That's the answer!
Phil

cloudbusting

08-04-14, 07:56

Hi everybody

Good to read these posts today, not good in the way that we all seem to be struggling a bit at the moment but good to have a group of us talking about the ups and downs and how that can change through the course of just one day.

I started taking passiflora tincture yesterday. I don't know how long it takes to work but my second dose was due late evening when I wrote on here that I had had an anxiety 'blip' - I took it (20 drops in water) and I did calm right down and actually had a really good nights sleep. Was it the herb ? I don't know but it's not harming me so I shall carry on with it.

Interesting to read about mindfulness as opposed to acceptance. I agree with Terry that a 'one size fits all' approach to this can't really work. I remember having CBT years ago and it did get me back on track quite quickly but this time around (six months now) the CBT tools barely made a dent, hence I have been trying allsorts of therapies to see how they 'fit'.

OK, well, have a good one folks ! See you later.

Lisa x

phil6

08-04-14, 08:52

Has anyone had any success with Worry Periods.
This is telling your mind that you have a set, limited, time to allow yourself to worry. Say from 5pm for 29 minute, and so postponing any rumination.
Phil

MyNameIsTerry

08-04-14, 08:59

I tried Phil but I just couldn't turn it off. Having various OCD types and obsessional thinking meant my mind just kept going and if it didn't, one of the rituals would.

It must work for some people.

If you could combine it with distractions then I could see it being more effective.

Why not give it a go and see what happens? Consider an experiment, ruling out the tools that don't work for you.

phil6

08-04-14, 09:44

Thanks Terry,
I think this might work for the future events which keep popping us as worries. I have a big family holiday coming up in August and this is the sort of thing which always pops into my head when feeling anxious. How will I cope etc.
But I think the worry about the anxiety itself is a lot more difficult to postpone since it is worry which is pretty constant when you feel physically anxious. I think dealing with this mental rumination is all about acceptance. For me this has to be about realising that there is nothing I can do to control it and try and stop trying to.
Phil

Humly

08-04-14, 10:07

Sorry to jump in on this as you are all so eloquent and knowledgeable on this subject but Phil you seem to have been struggling for a long time. I know you have said that you do not favour medication but do think that maybe its time to consider something just to give you some breathing space to get yourself back on track. I am a fine one to talk as I am quite anti-meds and whenever I have been on them in the past I just couldnt wait to be off them but maybe its time and you could have a talk with your doc about what might be best x

phil6

08-04-14, 10:14

Humley,
Last year I had 14 weeks on Citalopram which was an awful experience. I then took a month to get off them and tried Sertraline. I vomited after just one day so I stopped.
I then went to the GP and asked to try Mertazapine, which was much gentler for me and gave me great sleep. But I felt so groggy I just started to get anxious about being on them. I have 2mg Valium for really bad spells but try not to take them.
The bottom line is I have recovered in the past without medication and I am just never going to be comfortable taking them. If someone could give me medication that I didn't need to go through side effects of 4 or 5 weeks and which then worked for me then I would take them , but they don't seem work that way for me.
Yesterday was a great example of the way I am... I woke early feeling high anxiety... I tried to be accepting and was ok until I felt like I was never going to get better and the thoughts escalated until I burst into tears when driving home. I really bawled and kept repeating what is wrong with me... It was desperate.
Then after 30 minutes I ran out of steam and came out of the despair having decided I need to get back to some kind of acceptance. In the evening I went out for a pizza and a couple of pints and sat listening to a live singer enjoying feeling nice and relaxed.
It's hard feeling ok then not.. When I am not, I cannot feel it will pass. When I am ok I am sure I can cope.
It's a roller coaster.
I have an ex work mate who is on SSRIs and is in a really good place now. I do envy him.
The only thing that I might consider would be a beta blocker which I have not tried. Might help with the rough spells and less addictive than Valium. But a big part of me would try not to take them as there will always be side effects.
Phil

cloudbusting

08-04-14, 10:37

Just a quickie as I want to get cracking with some stuff today ...

Phil, I feel just the same about meds. I know some people are fine with them but I just cannot bring myself to take them and risk going through the weeks of build up before feeling 'better'. However, saying that, Propranolol (beta blockers) have been a godsend to me before now. My Dr even takes them before he has a big speech to do ! He said it is perfectly fine to take them as and when needed. I am prescribed 40mg 3 times a day but cut them in half and just take one half, once a day if I need one. They really work for me, particularly with the skipped heart beats etc.
Also, I have just taken my third lot of passiflora tincture. I know it's early days but I am very impressed so far. I got myself all worked up earlier about the band thing I am struggling with, could have easily had a panic attack. I took the drops in water and then I walked the dog. Now, I feel relaxed and just like 'me'. Could have been the walk that did it I suppose, I don't know - but if you fancy something natural then have a look at the A Vogel website where I got mine from.

---------- Post added at 10:37 ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 ----------

PS I'm not sure that it's a good idea to take beta blockers *and* passiflora, I'm just taking the herbs right now.

phil6

08-04-14, 10:47

I will give it a try... I am not a massive believer in herbal remedies but it has a lot of good reviews. I do drink camomile tea. Not sure if this has any effect but it can't do any harm.
I am not sure I will try a beta blocker like Proprnoalol as I don't really get heart palpitations or fast heart beats ... My anxiety is all about stomach churning and that uncomfortable loss of appetite. Dealing with my attitude towards anxiety has to be the number one therapy for me.
As per my last post, I felt great last night, simply because I lost the thoughts and physical sensations. So I know the real me is always close by.... Just absent again for the moment.
Phil

Humly

08-04-14, 10:54

I know what you are saying about the side effects. The thought of taking anything that would make me worse is just not acceptable to me either. I was on Mirtazapine a few years ago as I was really desperate and I did feel calmer after 4 weeks or so but it could also have been down to the fact that the situation that I was anxious about was moving forward as well. It also made me put on a lot of weight which I didnt like.

I am a bit up and down during the day and at times feel fine and others just want to cry. I lost my job before Christmas so have got a lot of time on my hands too. I am spending far too much time on here as well but it calms me down but I am becoming too reliant on it.

Maybe beta blockers would be the thing to try if things dont improve. Its something I am thinking about as I have really gone a bit over the top lately over something stupid! Gonna have a look at that passiflora tincture too.

phil6

08-04-14, 11:07

Hi,
I ordered it on Amazon.".. Slightly cheaper.
As you can tell, I am also using NMP as a bit of a crutch at the moment. We think about anxiety all day don't we?
It is a way of just distracting yourself a little but it does keep the issue at the forefront of your mind, that is a bit of a problem.
I think it is not too bad as long as we don't spend our time just trying to comfort ourselves and mulling over symptoms. We all think that we are feeling something more powerful or different to everyone else, but I am sure it's all the same, it's all anxiety and no one feeling is any more important or significant than any other...If it gets you going with a change of attitude then it does some good.

Nervy_of_catford

08-04-14, 12:27

I don't know whether this is any help, but I have lived with panic attacks and anxiety since I was a small child.

It's complex because I also have Autistic Spectrum traits, and a significant portion of my anxiety is linked to sensory overload and cognitive processing issues. However, in addition I have psychologically-triggered anxiety and panic, and that is something I have been able to learn to live with, and reduce.

Part of what helped was being able to tease apart what was caused by sensory processing issues (effectively making my brain "crash") and what was emotional in origin.

Then I learned about panic and the physical mechanism behind it.

Then I practiced breathing through panic attacks, understanding them as temporary, and talking myself through them. And learning to start talking myself out of anxiety by reminding myself I was safe "in the present", and the bad feelings I was having were based on a theoretical future, not on what was actually happening in the here and now.

Gradually I have learned to nip panic attacks in the bud, and ride them out when they do pop up. It gets easier with practice - honest!

The biggest thing for me was learning how to reassure myself I was safe "in the present", and the bad feelings I was having were based on a theoretical future, not on what was actually happening in the here and now. This took a lot of talking to myself - out loud initially, and then in my head.

From a point of being unemployed for most of about 7 years, mostly because of anxiety I've now been working for 5 years in the same job, and am much more functional. But it has taken a lot of practice, and I do still live with low level anxiety, and still have minor panic attacks a few times a week.

I am sure I'll get to a point where they reduce, too, but for now I can get on with life, and it's not too disruptive.

Edit to add: I still have bad days when my emetophobia is triggered, but a few years ago I'd have had to leave the office and go home to hide, and possibly not left the flat for a week. Now, I can stay at my desk and just ride out the fear. It's not easy, I won't pretend it is, but it is possible.

phil6

08-04-14, 12:37

Thanks for that.
This is a type of Mindfulness training.
I do mindfulness meditation, usually once a day for half an hour, but I have found it difficult to be mindful in day to day activities. Being mindful is about being focused in the here and now, however you feel without judgment. When I am anxious, it is quite hard to stay focused on what is actually happening in the present. I recognise that I am worrying about future events, but do struggle to stop. I often try and read a book or the paper, but the anxiety does keep near the surface and keep pulling at my attention.
I do get panic attacks but very rarely. I have GAD which is feeling a lower level of anxiety for most of the day. Obviously there are times when I start to worry about it and then I feel the intensity increase. This is when I need to do what you are describing to enable me to pass through these spells without adding more fear to the feelings.
Phil

MyNameIsTerry

09-04-14, 05:33

I hear you Phil. I was like that at my worst point with anxiety...nothing seemed to work. It does though, it just takes a while so keep at it.

When I started Mindfulness meditation, I had a theory that I would struggle with it when I was my most anxious which was the first half of the day. So, I practiced it in the second half when I knew my anxiety was lower. I continued with PMR in the mornings and some breathing exercises as thhey don't require going near the thoughts.

I feel this strategy paid off for me. I'm toying with the theory that trying to relax when the anxiety is this high might not be the best way for me. Since adrenaline is involved, I'm thinking that I need to do something that burns it off and stablises me. I always go for walks early in the day and I find this helps so perhaps doing something more strenuous would help even more?

Just a thought, have you ever tried visualisation style meditation or exercises e.g. listening to MP3 guided types? I had some relief from these initially. I remember when my anxiety was really bad, I sometimes found concentrating very hard on an object would help get me past it a little bit and this visualisation is a similiar method.

---------- Post added at 05:26 ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 ----------

Thanks Terry,
I think this might work for the future events which keep popping us as worries. I have a big family holiday coming up in August and this is the sort of thing which always pops into my head when feeling anxious. How will I cope etc.
But I think the worry about the anxiety itself is a lot more difficult to postpone since it is worry which is pretty constant when you feel physically anxious. I think dealing with this mental rumination is all about acceptance. For me this has to be about realising that there is nothing I can do to control it and try and stop trying to.
Phil

This is why it didn't work for me Phil. I just couldn't turn off my obsessive thoughts about the sensations. The OCD didn't help with this.

If something pops up, a worry period could be a sensible way to deal with it. Or, maybe trying a paper based CBT method where you write down the worry and mitigate against it. Write down why you shouldn't worry, why it will be ok, write down what could go wrong and write next to it what would happen. This is another method which can help because you can spend time reading it back and that's all going into the subconscious mind too.

Personally, I think thats mostly what GAD is. Fear of Fear. Fear of symptoms. Despite proving to yourself over and over that nothing does go wrong, it's still there. This is why I struggle to believe that acceptance is the best way for me, although I don't want to put others off, because I can go to bed feeling much better and get up and it's just the same as it was the day before, so nothing has changed.

GAD overlaps into the other disorders & phobias, mimics them, etc so we tend to get anxious about events as well but we can try to reason them out. This "I'm anxious all day but for why when I'm only doing the same as yesterday when I was fine" doesn't seem to work.

---------- Post added at 05:33 ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 ----------

Hi Terry,
I agree. I do mindfullness meditation and it has taught me to be more aware of when my mind is in story mode so I am more able to recognise when I am ruminating or caught up in mental what ifs.
I do find however, especially when I wake early and try and return to sleep that I get very caught up in efforts to try and stop thinking, or change my thinking, and I find myself taking part in a mental battleground. This seems to be once again trying to feel better, and it always adds to the anxiety.
The best thought seems to be the realisation that you cannot control how you feel as this thought can put a stop to all the mental efforts. But for me this lasts about 10 seconds before I start disliking the way I am feeling again and I start ruminating once more.
It's hard managing your mind, because we are all aware that it is our thinking that is causing the way we feel, so it is natural to try and fix ourselves through thought. But how many times have we been told that we cannot think ourselves better.
The despair is all in the mind. My mind wants to fix itself, gets in an awful state going round and round trying to come up with an answer and cannot reach that point. It can be very distressing. Mindfullness has taught me to recognise this when I am doing this. At least you can then realise that you are waiting your time. Sometimes it's quite a relief to just stop, and withdraw from the spinning. By that I mean realising that there is no answer... That's the answer!
Phil

Yeah, the trouble is you can't stop thinking. I also think that after a time we forget that non anxious people have this internal chatter going on, it's just that it drifts without them placing much value on it.

How long have you been doing the Mindfulness Phil? I found that I got some small benefit earlier on but after some months I wanted to do more despite me changing nothing in my routines. I credit this to the Mindfulness, I just felt more able to do things and I wanted to do things. I struggled in CBT but when this change came, I started addressing the goals I was failing on in the CBT.

I've read that this is a subject of study in neuroscience because they believe meditation has the capacity to alter the physical brain (neuroplasticity) as well as the conscious, subconscious, emotional side, etc. It's quite interesting. Even studies over the short term have shown differences when they have used those resonated scans to examine the brain.

Strange how we seem to be going back to things thousands of years old but then the Roman doctors were doing things that only resurfaced in the last couple of hundred years. So, there could be something in Buddhism that we need!

cloudbusting

09-04-14, 08:00

I'm so grateful for NMP and this thread in particular at the moment. I am careful about which boards and posts that I look at throughout the site but this is a great help for me right now.

Mindfulness, staying in the present, not dwelling on an imagined future - all powerful tools to try and get on board with. They take a lot of practice, as a lot of us have found or are finding out, but it can be done. Don't give up hope.

I listened to the audio of Dr. Claire Weeke's 'Pass Through Panic' yesterday, the whole two hours. It was brilliant. Something about hearing her voice, how she explains things in that calm and practical manner just brought the stuff to life for me. I shall listen again today when I get the chance. Highly recommended.

Have got my first appointment with the psychotherapist today at 10am. Feeling a bit nervous, of course, but also looking forward to it in a strange way and interested in what she will say to me.

Have a good day all.

Lisa x

phil6

09-04-14, 08:06

Hi Terry,
Thanks for your help.
I have been doing mindfullness for several months but I am not very disciplined and admit to forgetting some days. I usually sit for 20 minutes and I do have MP3s some of which are visualisations.
I think the trap I fall into with acceptance is I start to try to control my thinking. Try to accept by thinking about accepting. This is because I find myself fearing that I am not accepting and so accepting becomes rumination. I do overthink all of this.
Yesterday I realised this is a mistake and that acceptance shouldn't involve the mind at all.
It feels really strange to just try and allow the anxiety. Intrusive thoughts do pop up and I do feel these as spikes in the anxiety but every time I started to think about what was happening I tried to just drop the subject. Ignoring anxiety is almost impossible but you can sort of recognise when your mind has reverted to trying to fix things and combat this with thoughts like, "there is nothing I can do about this, I am anxious and that's OK"
Yesterday the anxiety stayed with me until late afternoon, and this is when I am prone to getting frustrated and despairing about it as it's easy to think, why, when I am doing my best to accept. But to be fair, I had a really relaxed evening and I did go to bed with a feeling of achievement. I am trying to hold on to the belief that continuing to go through the day without so much reaction like this and working on stopping my mind drifting into the fix it and worry mode will allow my mind to rest a bit. Having had an uncomfortable day yesterday but carrying on as normal has given me a little bit of confidence that although hard, it will help given time. I certainly had a good nights rest and have woken feeling quite positive. The habit of trying not to set the anxiety off this morning doesn't seem so necessary, which is a step in the right direction.
Anxiety is not pleasant, and it robs you of interest in the things you used to enjoy. It also makes you feel vulnerable and everything feels like an effort. It breaks your confidence and so you feel you want to withdraw. It makes making decisions very difficult. Struggling and working to overcome all these things feels necessary. Yet yesterday they all dissolved by late afternoon without any input from me.
It's a strange thing, but I have recovered from this in the past, but I cannot remember how. I think this is because I didn't fix it! I carried on at work feeling crap, and eventually it passed. I remember that often in the past it was usually based on an upcoming stressful event, like a lengthy training course away from home. So it was all about anticipation and once the event was over I felt relieved. But I was anxious because of fearful thinking about failing to cope, and once I stopped these stories and I actually started the event the stories stopped. Mindfullness is helping with recognising when you have drifted into story telling and therefore you can sort of pull yourself away from it. It's about practice.
If I can continue along these lines it is the way forward I'm sure. I also agree totally about trying to stop thinking. You are right everyone thinks continuously, but they don't really get that involved with the thoughts, they just come and go.

Cloudbusting,
Yes I still listen to my old Claire Weekes tapes... They are still very valid. She keeps it simple. Also her method is still the basis of all modern therapies.
This thread is also helping me. Lots of good help and good support. It is the best way to use forums. I don't think it's helpful just using the site to share our symptoms. It's power is learning how to move forward.
Phil

ChilliChocolate

09-04-14, 12:19

phil6

09-04-14, 12:56

Hi,
I quite like ACT, which stands for Acceptance Commitment Therapy and is based on mindfullness. A good book for this is
Get out if your Mind and into Your Life.
ACT does not differ a great deal from CBT except it seems less effortful when dealing with thoughts, acknowledging and accepting rather than trying to challenge them.
Phil

ChilliChocolate

09-04-14, 14:52

Cheers Phil. Just ordered it! Had great reviews on amazon so I look forward to reading it.

cloudbusting

09-04-14, 18:30

I'm using that book too, good stuff.

Well, what can I say about today ?! I went for my first appointment with the psychotherapist. She was really, really good. Really easy to speak to. Brought lots of things to the surface already. We have a lot of ground to cover but I left with a real feeling that I WILL beat this.

The weather has been great and that always helps doesn't it ? Went for a couple of nice walks so that was good.

Had a couple of things to deal with today that would have had me on my knees of late but I handled them ;)

So, a good day all in all. Hoping it continues.

Lisa x

MyNameIsTerry

09-04-14, 19:36

Thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. Can identify with a lot of what you are all experiencing.

Can someone recommend any good resources for mindfulness please? I have been doing body scans from Youtube which seem to help with the anxiety attacks. Would like to learn more about the method though (if you know what I mean?).

Look for Jon Kabat-Zinn and Professor Mark Williams. They use CBT blended with Mindfulness which is now a recommended form of therapy.

Mark Williams can also be found on the site BeMindful if you want to learn a bit about it, but the course on there is more expensive than the books.

Books from both of these authors can be find anywhere, I had a Mark Williams book from WHSmiths.

phil6

10-04-14, 08:06

Good morning everyone.
I have had a reasonably good couple of days. Days with anxiety but being able to allow it without reacting with fear. Good long periods of feeling fine. I even woke yesterday feeling quite calm. I seemed to be starting to believe that my nervous system is calming a little and it's just a matter of time.
This morning I woke early, and whatever the thought was, I got a real rush of anxiety. It's so hard not to be very disappointed as it always feels like you are slipping back. And this thought causes more anxiety. In my case I start to feel very sick and then the what ifs kick in. What if I feel like then when..... And I think of all the things I may have to do today, this week, next month etc etc.
The dread adds to the anxiety and as I am typing this I cannot grasp onto how I can get through these early morning spells. I am sure many know what it's like.
I am currently floundering, trying to change the way I feel again.
Is it true that I have no control over the way I feel now? Should I just allow myself to feel like this. Doing things feels so impossible, but the stupid thing is, I don't have to do anything at this moment. I keep trying to tell myself that I am ok, safe but nothing seems to help. The danger is I can easily slip into despair and want to give up.
This feeling is so powerful. I cannot remember what it felt like last night when I wrote in my diary that I don't need to worry about these spells!
Phil

---------- Post added at 08:06 ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 ----------

Just a few minutes later and having listened to a bit of Claire Weekes audio, I realise what I am doing again. I am being too impressed by my feelings. I am desperately trying to feel good. There is some relief in just thinking, I am allowed to feel like this. The thought that it is normal for me to feel anxiety now and it is just the way I am for now. There is no need to battle to try and think right, or to change anything. Yes I feel crap, but there is nothing I can do except try and stay calm, take some breaths and wait.
And if I need to reassure myself, I can only think that these spells are necessary and all part of recovery. I have to go through them over and over until they become less and less important, remembering they will pass.
Still feeling crap, but it feels like practice.
Phil

MyNameIsTerry

10-04-14, 08:19

Yes, and I'm betting that when you felt better, you couldn't remember how the anxiety really felt...or st least how bad it can get. Then it comes back and you start falling down again with an internal "oh no, not again, I can't go through this again".

You will get through it Phil. The truth is, it can't hurt or kill us (and I can't tell you the amount of the times I've wished it would!)

You've had a step forward and more you've got to hold your ground and the next step forward will come. As these breaks start, they then start to get longer do your anxious days become less. Don't be surprised if in some periods when the anxiety returns, that it feels worse. This happens but it doesn't mean its the end, its just a blip.

Ever seen films about greeks or Romans where they are fighting in shield walls pressed up against each other? For instance, in the film Troy where the Trojans are holding the Greeks outside their walls. When they forced them back it was a big heave and then dig in and hold ground, then repeat. Its like that, anxiety is the enemy shield wall and bit by bit you will push it back and sometimes it will push you back.

You just have to find ways to push it back and each time you do, you non anxious days will increase.

Have you thought about exercise in the mornings well burn off the adrenaline. Morning exercise had been proven in studies to provide better sleep.

phil6

10-04-14, 08:33

Hi Terry
Thanks
Yes when I tried SSRIs last summer, the anxiety got worse (startup) and I used to rise and go of a run... I do try and visit the gym and swim regularly and it helps. I am 61 so it's good to try and stay mobile.
It's just hard to rise and go running early in the morning when you just feel tired. And especially in the winter. Maybe that's what I need to do when I get these anxiety filled mornings.
And you are dead right. When I feel ok I cannot appreciate how bad anxiety feels and when anxious it always gets a real hold on me and I cannot imagine feeling well.
I also am convinced that I will be sick, but never am. This nausea always makes me want to tell people that I don't feel well. I usually don't tell people but sit very uncomfortable with that horrible feeling of wanting to get away.
Phil

MyNameIsTerry

10-04-14, 08:59

I've had that too Phil.

I've got rid of my nausea issues now. Mid last year I picked up a sickness bug and it did me a big favour. I was sick a few times in the night but something strange happened...I find myself being sick and my mind was saying "ok, nothing to worry about but THIS is nausea, feel your head spinning? You never had that before when you had nausea from anxiety did you? That's because it wasn't really anything".

I had been using Mindfulness for some time before this happened and I think my subconscious took the opportunity to cancel that symptom off the list.

I couldn't believe it! But ever since, the old form of anxious nausea had gone.

So, Mindfulness can be working for us without knowing. Not long after that happened I also found my attitude changing so I wanted to do more.

So, keep it up and hopefully these little lightbulb moments will come and you will feel like something positive has changed within you, even if you can't pinpoint what it is.

There are some stats on the BeMindful website about Mindfulness blended with CBT. It might be worth a look.

Take care.

Terry

phil6

10-04-14, 09:13

Thanks Terry,
He I also do mindfullness meditation and I am sure it helps.
You are also right about the nausea. It is anxiety nausea which is different to hangover nausea or a stomach bug.
I have a bad habit of exagerating. It doesn't help with the anxiety because I find my exagerating to myself about how bad and intolerable it is. That is something else I have realised lately. So I am learning even after all this time.
Take care
Phil

ChilliChocolate

10-04-14, 11:50

Great news Lisa re your appt yesterday! :D

Charlotteee89

10-04-14, 15:10

I've had an up & down past 2 days. I can go have a few hours when I feel okay but then something hits me & I feel depressive all over again... I think it's because I've got so many obsessive thoughts rushing my head & I feel a bit out of control. I've been feeling really emotional again. I think I'm just too sensitized to everything at the mo. & I'm probably exaggerating my feelings. Tiredness makes me feel 100x worse.

I just don't want to feel like this anymore.. I want to feel 'normal' & happy & stop over-thinking everything! Ugh. :mad:

phil6

10-04-14, 19:26

With you on that Charlotte,
I have been carrying in as best I can today. Been out swimming with grandkids, to the pub for lunch, but it's been an act so far all day. For a few moments I feel a bit positive then I get a rush if anxiety and I cannot really identify the thought that causes it. It is probably the kind of thought you express, like oh, I hated feeling this way.
I don't know why but I find it really hard to just let it be. I know that's what I want to do but it's a strong feeling of dread. I just want to stop battling with it.
No one can tell, nothing is going to harm me, yet the feeling is all consuming.
I wish i could take it less seriously. Just as a feeling.
I have a determination to start getting through these nasty days without despairing or getting so emotional about them and so I will stay as calm as I can today.
I keep reminding myself that I probably have to keep experiencing long days like this to eventually feel better. I will try and remember that.
I think I will take one of my 2mg Valium as I can feel this getting the better of me today. That's a real shame as I keep feeling that if I could just get through these intense spells with a better attitude it would boost my confidence. Somehow I am occasionally able to feel acceptance and the feelings do subside a little or at least not mount, but then I seem unable to resist thinking about it again and getting back into the anxiety loop. This is so hard. Am I trying too hard again?

---------- Post added at 16:52 ---------- Previous post was at 15:52 ----------

Just wanted to post again as I find myself in my version of a panic attack. I have been getting more and more anxious since returning home. I have been sitting and trying not to get drawn into this feeling but there comes a point when I feel like I am sinking into a horrible feeling of despair and almost like I am crossing a point of no return. The feelings start to feel seriuosly overwhelming but I think I do understand what is happening
Those last to sentences are what my thoughts are all about.. Fear of losing control, getting swamped by feelings. These thoughts are really making the adrenaline flow and it all makes sense. Not that this makes it much easier to deal with.
The Valium is starting to kick in and bring me back from running upstairs and closing the bedroom door and venting By crying. I know that people always away if you need to cry, let yourself, but for me it feels like it is reinforcing my fear of this feeling. I keep encouraging myself that I will be able to cope, and then, crying seems to confirm that I cannot.
So I will not! But I have had to take a pill!
I am not feeling very sure about acceptance. It's where I get myself to .. It's a bad habit.
Needing a bit of reassurance again!
Phil

---------- Post added at 19:26 ---------- Previous post was at 16:52 ----------

Apologies for posting again but having now calmed ( as a result of a valium I guess ) a couple of things have become clear. I think most if us feal like victims of anxiety. This afternoon I could feel the anxiety building. Churning stomach, pins and needles etc.
I finally reached a point where I could feel my emotions getting overwhelming, or that's how it felt. It does feel out of your control, the anxiety feels like it has a life if it's own. It feels bewildering and at the time it doesn't feel like it has a reason. What's happening?
When I think about my thoughts throughout this process, it's pretty clear why the anxiety was building. Obvious in fact...
My thoughts were along the lines of....
This is getting worse...
Why is this happening, what am I doing wrong?
It's really getting too strong now
And finally, I can't cope with this...it's too much!
All of the above thoughts are fearful. They are what is escalating the anxiety. Simple.
The thing is, I was actually totally fused with these thoughts. They were real to me.
If you have ever heard if defusion of thoughts, this practice would have helped no end.
Defusing thoughts is about stepping back, observing them but then letting them go as just thoughts...
If I had managed to defuse then this afternoon might have been somewhat different. If I could have recognised what I was thinking and added the words " I just thought that...." In front of each thought then would they have had the same effect... Food for thought.
Phil

Charlotteee89

10-04-14, 20:32

& Of course when you're having a bad day you can't help but feel worse cause you're thinking "What the hell?!" "What's happening, I thought I was getting better!" "UGH Go away anxiety!" etc etc. Which just fuses the anxiety even more. It's a horrid, never ending cycle.

I keep getting thoughts like "I can't cope!" "Omg I feel awful!" "I just want to sleep for ever & ever!" which make me panic as I wonder if they're really me or just obsessive thoughts. I'm so scared to be severely depressed that it's almost like my mind is chucking thoughts into my head purposely which are confusing the hell out of me, but I can't help but be 'convinced' by them. :wacko: I'm convincing myself that I have severe depression & that my life is a mess.

It's like my default setting is anxiety, anxiety, anxiety. I just can't seem to switch it off & think normally. It's almost like my mind has forgotten what 'normal' thoughts are. & When I do seem to be thinking normally my anxiety is like "NO I DON'T LIKE IT" & chucks an irrational, obsessive thought in to throw me off.

phil6

10-04-14, 21:05

Yep Charlotte,
I know what you mean. When I feel OK and I did on Tuedsay pm my mind is at rest and I am able to watch TV and get engrossed in the programme. I did take time to check on how I felt about anxiety and intrusive thoughts and worries and they were not a problem. So I think you and I are not our anxious minds. We are still our old selves waiting to step forward when the anxiety goes away.
But I also know what you mean about feeling that your default setting is anxiety. I think this is true. It's called sensitisation. Any anxious thought is felt physically and out of all proportion. It's almost like you are frightened to think, but oh do we think!
So we cannot really stop the thoughts, although we can probably learn to discard them and see them as just a random collection of words... Just noise. And we cannot control how our bodies react with adrenaline and all it's effects.
So I come right back to the start of this thread. We have to learn not to fear and worry about feeling like crap.... Only then can we discard our thoughts as they can just come and go, feel the anxiety (the hard bit) and let our nervous system heal itself. No attempt at control, or changing the way we feel.
It certainly became very uncomfortable for me today.... But it seems there is no real alternative.
I am an ex computer engineer. My mind always wants to work on a problem and come up with a solution. That's a bloody nightmare... Good for my career... But like you I need to learn not to apply this to trying to fix anxiety.
I think you need to foster the same attitude to your fear of becoming depressed. You cannot stop yourself from becoming depressed by thinking or avoiding. This is only going to stress you out even more.
Phil

Charlotteee89

10-04-14, 22:02

I've been struggling to have 'normal' days this past week, but I can have so many hours of feeling 'normal' then as soon as I start over-thinking, I'm back in anxiety mode again.
Yes, I am very sensitized at the moment, very 'aware' of my self & my thoughts, very on edge wondering what on earth my mind is going to think off next. I can't relax as I'm constantly over-thinking. & Of course there's triggers everywhere, there's no escape.

I definitely need to stop worrying about feeling rubbish. I need to stop catastrophizing & allowing my mind to get overwhelmed by everything & sometimes, even nothing. I think I am just fed up of feeling like this, that's probably not helping. I'm struggling to be positive.

I'm always trying to 'fix' my anxiety, always trying to problem solve it. I think it's just a way of my mind trying to understand & make sense of my anxiety even though it's not going to work - the more I try & fix the problem the more problems I'm causing because I've now 'found' a reason for my thoughts which makes me feel even more anxious.

I just need to talk to my CBT councellor about it all, she's not back for a few weeks yet though.

phil6

10-04-14, 22:14

Charlotte,
You seem to be very aware of what you are doing which is causing the problems.
It was the only bit if CBT that I wasn't sure was going to help me. That is thought challenging. There is nothing wrong with this but it can lead to even more rumination.
Anxiety is a problem that is best left alone. You and I will never come up with solutions.
My CBT therapist once said treat anxiety like excema. The urge to scratch it is strong but will only spread the problem. Try not to scratch that itch. The solution is the problem.
Pitch am just trying to drop the subject, and feel anxious. It all feels wrong, but that's just the way it is.

Phil

Charlotteee89

10-04-14, 23:26

Yes I am very aware of what is causing the problems - I just can't stop it! I think that's why I'm feeling so low - I'm just so annoyed with myself! :wacko:

Over-analyzing every little thought is just a disaster waiting to happen, but it's almost like your mind is auto-tuned to do this so trying to stop, or not pay attention to it is so hard. Thought challenging can have it's upsides & it's downsides.

My mind is all over the place, I don't like not having control over it, it makes me feel so disorientated.

phil6

11-04-14, 08:18

Well, once again it was bound to happen for me. Uncomfortable day yesterday and I woke at 3:30 this morning and BAM!... bucket loads of adrenaline.
When it's dark, it's so hard. I lie there thinking it's OK, it's just anxiety, followed by thoughts that it's no good, I can't do this any more.
There are so many good things to remind myself of in this thread...some are even my own posts...amazing!
Eventually, I get up and read through this whole thread, which seems to be the only thing I can do to distract myself and relieve the knot in my stomach a little.
Anyway, like I have said many times, although I wish I could find a magic cure, there is nothing for it but to get going today trying to keep in mind that it's OK if I feel anxiety, and I should not expect to feel any other way at present.
I cannot help wishing for a good day though... That's not wrong of me is it?
And as for my day out tomorrow (coach trip)... Well the best I can do is try and discard all the negative stories I am telling myself again... Anticipation, ugh.
Just trying to keep in mind that I am still heading in the right direction, even if it often doesn't feel like it.
Phil

MyNameIsTerry

11-04-14, 08:35

You will Phil, you just haven't found what works for you yet, but you will.

You've put loads of great detail into this thread. Its clear that you are a deep thinker. Its also clear that you are an analytical logical thinker which means you spend a lot of time deconstructing everything and trying to put it back together again. I'm the same, my background was business analysis and improvement for years and in looking at a project I would have to look for all the risks, try and break it and then make it work better. The trouble is, if you do this for long enough, your subconscious seems to see it as the norm and starts to apply it to everything and then you are in trouble.

Its hard telling yourself how to be in order to get rid of physical sensations because that logical person inside you is saying how can thoughts affect the physical? But they do, its just like your programming, its just that with the brain the routines have to run a while longer before the change takes place.

I found this hard in CBT but I did get some of it to work for me, I just need another way of doing the rest in a more exposure based setting I think so I prove it to myself.

You might find neuroplasticity enlightening. Studies of meditation are showing how it can alter the physical structure of the brain. Its quite remarkable really.

phil6

11-04-14, 09:11

Hi Terry,
Yes, I am an ex computer engineer so my mind is very much analytical.
Decision making is so difficult when feeling anxious. I tend not to avoid things because of my anxiety, but I always have difficulty committing to things as I am unsure of my ability to cope and I hate letting people down. A good example would be being invited to help with a local sailing event. I would love to do this when feeling OK. I am unsure of myself at the moment and my anxiety wants to say no.
I don't think my fear about the day would be that I would actually be sick or get in a state and burst into tears. I would be too embarrassed. It is a fear of spending the day feeling anxious and uncomfortable, wanting to go home.
That is my anticipation. My gut feeling is I should say yes as I ought not to listen to my anxious mind. Whatever happens on the day, it's not going to kill me. I suppose it would be a relief if I could drop the indecision and just stop doing the should I, shouldn't I thing. I know deep down that I should do normal things and take part in life as it is part of the recovery path, even if it feels unsafe and risky.

Yes I have read about neuroplaciticity and I do do meditation and visualisation. It has certainly helped me to recognise when I am ruminating or story telling.

Once again I am feeling less anxious than I did at 3:30 this morning, but I don't feel great! It's hard not to sit and try and feel happier. I am so clear in what I need to do when I am feeling good, but confused when I am anxious. I sort of lose track of how to be even if I read the notes I often write to myself.
It all should be simpler than I make it.

Just one other thing that I always react internally to. It is very routine and normal when people bump into friends to say " hi how are you, alright?". This always has an emotional effect on me. The standard reply is just "OK thanks" or "Good thanks" but it is a lie. Now I am not saying that I should respond to this greeting with a long diatribe of out my anxiety but how do you all normally respond? Why does it always make me feel so awkward or dishonest.

Phuzella

11-04-14, 12:36

I always say, " getting there" :D

quercus robur

11-04-14, 17:07

Hi All , not posted here for ages , reason for posting is that today i have had that strange feeling that you all know come washing over me today ,started with a simple bad thought this morning and has left me with that deflated feeling all day but as i am a very experianced anxiety suffererer i know it will pass by applying my trusted forms of mindfulness which you do tend to loose when you are well and entrapped within your life you used to know without symptoms of anxiety , please be assured that anxiety is not a deeply rooted ilness that you may beleive it to be , i.e brain tumour , cancer , your going to end up like one of them bad people , blood curddling thoughts , your life is going to fall apart because you are like this , you believe you are a ...... or this etc etc etc etc , i know because i have been there and also beleive that i have also thought the thoughts that many of you are having at the moment thoughts that you will not want to share and you don't have to because it serves no real purpose because they are just what they are , a lot of shite swirling around your head with the general manic pace of life and imagery we are absorebed by every day ,
The art of reducing the anxitey you feel is simple but not easy and however way you find will work if you want it to ..

IF YOU REALISED HOW POWERFUL YOUR THOUGHTS ARE
YOU WOULD NEVER THINK A NEGATIVE THOUGHT

Best M

cloudbusting

11-04-14, 17:46

i Terry,
It is very routine and normal when people bump into friends to say " hi how are you, alright?". This always has an emotional effect on me. The standard reply is just "OK thanks" or "Good thanks" but it is a lie.

My therapist the other day said to me that she thinks the word 'fine' should really be an acronym for 'F@ck*d up, insecure, nervous & emotional' :D

phil6

11-04-14, 18:19

I will be answering FINE from now on.
Phil

Charlotteee89

11-04-14, 23:41

Today's another bad day for me! I seem to keep having bad days rather than good days.. These days.

I woke up too late which make me feel lethargic & zombie-like as it is. & My allergies are also playing up, so all in all not a good start to the day.

I've been at work this evening which was okay, but I just can't stop feeling emotional, I've no idea why! I'm also pretty fed up of staying in all the time, especially on a weekend night. I think it's due to my anxiety of being stuck in the house as it brings on anxious thoughts. It never really bothered me before. My anxiety seems to hate my routine at the moment. Is that normal? I'm going out tomorrow night though, so hopefully that'll cheer me up. But I do need to get back to feeling okay at home, cause getting out or 'escaping' won't actually help in the end. I'll just end up feeling more & more down when I do come home.

Ugh! :wacko:

MyNameIsTerry

12-04-14, 06:03

I will be answering FINE from now on.
Phil

Or FUBAR.

F Up Beyond All Recognition.

I'm sure you can work out what the 'F' stands for...:D

---------- Post added at 03:06 ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 ----------

Yes, Charlotte, feeling anxious all the time and feeling anxious about routine can be very common, expecially at the beginning.

Breaking up routines can help. I find that despite doing that, my anxiety then starts to crave something different all the time which is unrealistic so I think this part comes down feeling in the moment (Mindfulness) and acceptance.

---------- Post added at 04:47 ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 ----------

Hi All , not posted here for ages , reason for posting is that today i have had that strange feeling that you all know come washing over me today ,started with a simple bad thought this morning and has left me with that deflated feeling all day but as i am a very experianced anxiety suffererer i know it will pass by applying my trusted forms of mindfulness which you do tend to loose when you are well and entrapped within your life you used to know without symptoms of anxiety , please be assured that anxiety is not a deeply rooted ilness that you may beleive it to be , i.e brain tumour , cancer , your going to end up like one of them bad people , blood curddling thoughts , your life is going to fall apart because you are like this , you believe you are a ...... or this etc etc etc etc , i know because i have been there and also beleive that i have also thought the thoughts that many of you are having at the moment thoughts that you will not want to share and you don't have to because it serves no real purpose because they are just what they are , a lot of shite swirling around your head with the general manic pace of life and imagery we are absorebed by every day ,
The art of reducing the anxitey you feel is simple but not easy and however way you find will work if you want it to ..

IF YOU REALISED HOW POWERFUL YOUR THOUGHTS ARE
YOU WOULD NEVER THINK A NEGATIVE THOUGHT

Best M

Good advice from a wise 'Old English Oak'. :D

---------- Post added at 04:56 ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 ----------

I know what you mean Phil.

Hey, you can get away with nausea on boats :D

That sounds like a good project to get stuck into. Watching the water is quite therapeutic. If you feel like it's too much, can you take a break, gather your thoughts, do some Mindfulness meditation and then come back? If you can do that, it's more coping than avoiding I would say.

Have you tried Mindfulness outside of meditation? When I was having CBT and I had been practicing Mindfulness for about a month, I had a sudden period of what I can only describe as 'real Mindfulness' when I was going out for a walk in the warm sunshine and I sat on the bank of a hill with no one around and just felt it all. I remember feeling the texture of the grass, smells, the birds, other sounds...it felt amazing!

That made me think how good it must be to have that all the time. I would be happy to give up so much of the materialistic rat race garbage to feel content like that.

Meditation can also be done anyway and in many situations including such as walking, well it's only like doing Tai Chi or QiGong I guess. Have you ever tried any of that? I was thinking of trying QiGong.

I was even considering a Mindfulness course that is a bit more intensive at some point, when I feel like parting with some cash.

Incase it's of interest to you, or anyone else on here, there is a researcher who has posted for people to join a 8 week Mindfulness free course in the Media Interest section. She has been posted in loads of forums.

---------- Post added at 05:35 ---------- Previous post was at 04:56 ----------

I thought it might be helpful to post this about unhealthy thinking patterns. This one is aimed at panic & agoraphobia but it's a good example of how counterproductive thinking can be.

I used to attend a self help group, one of many ran by a local charity that has been going for over 20 years, and they used to go through these but one by one as a module. Their's where much longer but you will get the basic idea from these below.

Patterns of unhelpful thinking

First you need to be able to recognise an unhelpful thought. Then you can challenge it. Being aware of the common patterns that unhelpful thoughts follow can help you to recognise when you have them. Here are some of the common patterns that our unhelpful thoughts follow:

Predicting the Future:

When we feel panicky it is common for us to spend a lot of time thinking about the future and predicting what could go wrong, rather than just letting things be. In the end most of our predictions don't happen and we have wasted time and energy being worried and upset about them. For example:

Worrying that the supermarket will be very busy.
Worrying you will choke and suffocate if you go into a lift.
Catastrophising:

People commonly 'catastrophise' when they feel panicky, which basically means that they often blow things out of proportion. For example:

I'll get anxious, completely lose it and totally embarrass myself - when in all likelihood you have experienced anxiety in the past and coped well.
The bus will get so busy that my exit will be blocked and I won't be able to get off.
Should Statements:

People often imagine how they would like things to be or how they 'should be' rather than accepting how things really are. For example:

I should always be 100% comfortable in crowds.
I should be able to travel on trains.
This critical style of thinking simply creates extra pressure and stress.
Over Generalising:

Based on one isolated incident you assume that all others will follow a similar pattern in the future. Basically, you find it hard to see a negative event as a one off which can leave you feeling hopeless. For example:

Because you had a panic attack one time whilst shopping, you believe that you will panic in every shop you go into in the future.

What If Statements:

Have you ever wondered "what if" something bad happens? For example:

What if I have a panic attack at the party?
What if I faint on the train?
These thoughts result in us restricting our activities.
Black and White Thinking:

Often when feeling panicky, people see things as either black or white, there is no in between. For example:

They believe any sign of anxiety is weak.
They believe they never cope well when they go out.
This sets up expectations that can hold us back.
Ignoring the Positives:

Often people can ignore the positive aspects of life or situations, and instead focus on the negative elements. For example:

They remember feeling panicky in the supermarket, but forget that they always cope well in the busy town centre.
These thoughts keep our confidence levels low and we attempt to do less.
Labelling:

Do you find that you attach negative 'labels' to yourself? For example:

I'm weak.
I'm always panicking.
I'm incapable.
Labels like these tend to follow us around and hold us back.

---------- Post added at 05:58 ---------- Previous post was at 05:35 ----------

Here is another version of the unhelpful thinking posted above that may be useful as it can be printed.

http://media.psychologytools.org/Worksheets/English/Unhelpful_Thinking_Styles.pdf

---------- Post added at 06:03 ---------- Previous post was at 05:58 ----------

Phil,

Another tool that may be useful for you is below.

http://media.psychologytools.org/Worksheets/English/What_If.pdf

I remember using one of these at one point in my CBT. It's very easy to use and it's just a quick way to look at that bad What If and then turn it round on itself. It doesn't work for everyone, but sometimes it can be helpful.

Consider it a bit like a Forcefield Analysis which you are probably aware of from your work. I remember that I took to the CBT tools very easily because they are quite close to common business analysis tools used in such as Six Sigma.

You might also find a Thought Diary useful although I think you might have mentioned doing this somewhere.

http://media.psychologytools.org/Worksheets/English/CBT_Thought_Record.pdf

phil6

12-04-14, 08:05

Hi Terry,
All very useful tools. I did 14 weeks of 1-1 CBT and what you posted was very much part of that.
I do minfulness meditation and have read and researched it quite a bit. I try, but find it very difficult to do it informally, that is when walking etc.
The danger for me is I seem to now have a head full of tools and strategies to combat anxiety, and often find myself desperately trying to recall and sort through things to do to help when I start to feel that it's getting on top of me.

Sometimes the most effective thing to do is to keep it really simple. Just to stop worrying about the way you currently feel. Hard but clear.

So many strategies involve distraction which worries me as it is difficult for me to find distractions all day when in retirement.
Just like Charlotte says, I have to become comfortable with more idle time or else I find myself rushing around trying to avoid the anxiety, which doesn't work very well.
Today I am going out all day, on a coach trip to a rugby match. Yesterday the anticipation was killing me. This morning I wake early and the anxiety is high. But it is odd that because the day has arrived and there is no option but to actually do it, then the anxiety is different. It's almost like a part if me is just glad that I am now doing what I was fearing.

I have many hobbies and interests, and am sometimes quite busy with voluntary work for my local sports club. I swim and workout at the gym. In fact when the anxiety recedes I don't feel the need to find things to do. Obviously when the mind is full of anxiety, doing some of these activities lose their interest. Going for a walk with my camera is great when it's a nice day and my anxiety has gone. Doing so when the mind is spinning is difficult and forced and the walk is just taken up with more anxious thinking.
I think this is where informal mindfullness can help. I will take a look at the free course.

Thanks for the reminder about not having direct control over emotions. It should help when I next get the dread feeling. Yesterday I could feel the feeling looming and I know that it leads to an urge to let out all the emotion as despair. Although a good cry relieves the anxiety it is an exhausting thing to do. It also does nothing for my self esteem and may also reinforce the feeling that anxiety is a serious illness. I think it gives only temporary relief and can be just another avoidence strategy. I would prefer to pass through this emotion in a more accepting way.

Thanks

Phil

ChilliChocolate

12-04-14, 09:20

Sorry Phil - I don't know how to quote on this forum but I like the simplicity of this: "Sometimes the most effective thing to do is to keep it really simple. Just to stop worrying about the way you currently feel. Hard but clear."

I too am finding the wealth of information available on the net, my books and this forum a touch overwhelming sometimes. It's hard not to over think it all. Essentially they do all say the same thing but they're all putting it all in different and sometimes, complicated words or phrases. Does your words Phil simplify it down to its core? I think it does! : )

cloudbusting

13-04-14, 17:59

Bad, bad, bad, bad day today. Been a rough few days, actually.

Last night I just could not sleep again. I went to bed at midnight and just lay there until I got up again at 3.30. I went downstairs and got on the sofa with the dog and a quilt and listened to some guided meditations. I did drop off but woke again at 7. I don't even wake up gradually it's like BAM, awake, thoughts racing. I have a whooshing in my left ear too that's annoying me and it seemed very loud last night, grrr.
So, not much sleep and the thought of dragging myself through another crappity day - you can see where this is leading can't you ? My husband got up and asked how I was and I just broke down.
Anyway, here's what I have decided to do. Today I have asked for time off from the band just until I am better. I can't do it feeling as I do, its impossible. I thought that I could but I can't. Tomorrow my husband is coming with me to the docs as I would really like them to investigate if this is hormonal (change of life, is the old fashioned term). I would also like them to check my ear out.
I have some citalopram here that I have never taken. Should I start ? No scare stories, please ! That's the reason I haven't taken them already !

Thanks for reading.

Lisa x

eve22

13-04-14, 18:11

Wow! that may be why mine is worse, i just want it gone don't want it to be apart of me and my life! I need that book! I feel that i have no self control anymore! I don't know how to stop thinking about it, worrying or even letting it all go.....

phil6

13-04-14, 18:40

Just a word about Citalopram.... This is an SSRI. It is an antidepressant and he thing you need to accept if you start taking it is that it is likely to take 3 or 4 weeks before you feel any benefit.
Nobody can say how you will react to this drug but it is also quite normal for it to disturb your sleep and increase the anxiety. Not guaranteed as we are all different. If this happens you need to stick this out as it does get better.
I took it for 14 weeks and it never really changed my mood or anxiety which was a real disappointment as the first 3 weeks was not easy.
Just go into this with eyes wide open... If you are one of the fortunate people, it could really work well for you... Only you can decide.
I have to say, I am not anti medication, if it helps. But I knew that for me it did not help and even if it did I would want to get off them. That just me... I am a bit of a perfectionist and I want to get better through my own efforts, using CBT, Mindfullness and Acceptance.
I had a good day yesterday and like you felt crap today and did a bit of a meltdown.i am feeling a bit better now, but like you these breakdowns are awfully damaging to our self confidence.
I cannot blame you for withdrawing from the group at this time. I have no idea how you cope with that anyway, but I would say that you should not wait too long before getting back to what you obviously enjoy and value. Anxiety may make you feel it's impossible but that's what anxiety does. Please try not to let it start determining what you can and can't do. You can do anything you want. You really can!
It's a hard thing to realise, but it is so. It may be that you feel tired and uncomfortable but you can still do anything that you would normally be able to do. Just do it at a normal pace and don't give yourself a hard time because it's an effort with little joy at the moment.
Hope you have a better night tonight Lisa.
Phil

cloudbusting

13-04-14, 21:29

Thanks for your post, Phil.

I am feeling very 'dented' today. I think I've struggled on long enough now, six months of trying every other thing. I need some breathing space. I feel a bit defeatist with the meds but I've had enough and given my neck now. Anxiety has won this particular battle but it won't win the war. I shall carry on with the meditation as it really helps and I shall still see the psychotherapist and see where I am in a few months time. And keep checking in here of course.
Lisa x

phil6

14-04-14, 08:42

Lisa,
Time out is good. Stay positive and good luck.
Changing things that you can change is right if it is blocking your path to recovery.
Phil x

Charlotteee89

15-04-14, 02:12

I've been feeling okay since Sunday... My irrational/obsessive thoughts are still here but I'm not putting so much 'hold' on them it seems.

But I do feel stupid over a guy situation... I'm kinda thinking I only did it cause I like the attention. Silly me! :doh:

Hopefully I'm back to having more 'up' days rather than 'down' days. :)

MyNameIsTerry

15-04-14, 06:49

Thats good Charlotte. On the good days, try to work on your issues, it will lift your baseline and help you cope of the worse days.

Was that the guy at work? I seem to recall a thread about something like that on the SA board.

Lisa, thats ok, see it as an opportunity. If you need time, take it. There is no point overwhelming yourself. Perhaps see it as something you could exposure yourself to, perhaps micro goals towards a larger one of getting back in with the group. Are they going to cover for you for now and see how it goes? Make sure you discuss about medication with your GP before you start, he/she may even prescribe a different type. You may get side effects, and they can be unpleasant, and whilst you may not feel you will get through it - you will - I have twice now. It gets easier. I always suggest to not isolate yourself too much because it can make it harder to build back up to things, but I know I couldn't do this so don't feel bad about yourself if you can't either. Keep posting and vent it, everyone on here will understand.

Phil, I know what you mean but don't be too hard on yourself. Anxiety & depression are all about 'stages'. Some are terrible, others more bearable, etc. As you work on issues, things change and you start to nudge forward. You still get the blips, but they aren't as long or intense. I understand about being comfortable in your own skin. I have this and I go out every single day walking for hours and in some ways it is an avoidance. What you have to do is test yourself by staying in, let it do it;s worst and habituate yourself and you find your mind starts going the opposite way "I'm ok staying in, nothing bad will happen, I did it yesterday and was fine". I thinm this can be based again on what 'stage' you are at because I don't think I could have got my head around this earlier on but I did it for 3 months from Xmas and it went much better than I expected. Again, I felt the Mindfulness thoughts popping into my head - positive intrusive thoughts!!!

cloudbusting

15-04-14, 08:44

Cheers, all - how is everyone doing today ?

Well, I survived the first day of Citalopram ! There were more side effects than I expected but, being rational, I already experience them everyday anyway in one form or another so I felt prepared.

I am keeping in mind that a few weeks of this will be worth the pay off of getting myself some peace to really work on tackling the bloody thing !

Terry, I'm not sure what the band will do. I have said that I am totally OK with them finding a stand-in so that they don't feel awkward about thinking of that as a solution. They are being very supportive, which is good.

OK, once more into the breach !

Lisa x

---------- Post added at 08:44 ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 ----------

Again, I felt the Mindfulness thoughts popping into my head - positive intrusive thoughts!!!

I must get into mindfulness a bit more. Any good starting tips ?

phil6

15-04-14, 08:52

Lisa, good to hear... Remember, the side effects may last a couple of weeks but they should get better.
It is very odd, the stages that we go through. Having had yet another meltdown on Sunday/Monday, I reset myself and kept things simple yesterday by telling myself to just try and stop worrying about how I feel. A very anxious start turned into a nice day. The weather helps. The evening was almost like being cured. No worries, no anxiety, all my normal feelings and interest back. When like this I cannot even imagine why I have any kind of disorder. Last night I slept like a log, and woke feeling calm and settled and looking forward to a day out with family.
But, and this seems just as strange, I almost felt like it shouldn't be like this. I almost go looking for my anxiety as the calm seems to feel so odd. I know it will show itself at some point and so the slight worry sort of spoils the calm and I start to feel it.
I suppose when you think about it, it is another stage. I shouldn't worry about feeling good.i am no doubt still sensitised even when I feel ok so any kind of worry will give me a reaction. When the sensitisation is gone then emotions are less likely to be so easily sparked off.
Phil

cloudbusting

15-04-14, 15:29

But, and this seems just as strange, I almost felt like it shouldn't be like this. I almost go looking for my anxiety as the calm seems to feel so odd. I know it will show itself at some point and so the slight worry sort of spoils the calm and I start to feel it.
I suppose when you think about it, it is another stage. I shouldn't worry about feeling good.i am no doubt still sensitised even when I feel ok so any kind of worry will give me a reaction. When the sensitisation is gone then emotions are less likely to be so easily sparked off.
Phil

Hi Phil, thanks for the good wishes.

Oh, I can totally relate to this. I always feel that way during my calmer moments. I can be chatting and laughing with my daughter and then it's like another 'me' pops into my head to question why I feel ok and to remind me that I shall probably feel anxious again later or tomorrow. But, I guess it's to be expected. We have been living with dominant anxiety throughout our day for months or even years now. It will feel like an odd sensation to be calm and carefree. I guess, as we all get further into our recoveries that those times will lessen and it will just become the norm again to feel that way.

Hope everyone else having a good day.

Lisa x

xrachykinsx

15-04-14, 19:21

I'm not having a fantastic day today! I thought I was doing so good, and then bam! it's back..I feel really angry with myself today...angry how I managed to get like this. I just feel like theres something pushing me down and not allowing me to let go, even though I really do everything I should be. Is it totally normal to have setbacks and really shite days when you think you're doing so well...it just seems never ending sometimes!

phil6

15-04-14, 20:55

Oh I am right with you there. I think I have posted before there seems to be little reward for doing the best we can sometimes.
There is the point that we cannot practice true acceptance or letting go if the symptoms are not turning up. I suppose that us a bit of comfort.
I think I am trying to remember that these blips are all kart of the path to recovery and quite normal even if they seem unfair.
Keep on going and keep the faith. We are all experiencing ups and downs.

xrachykinsx

15-04-14, 22:22

I just seem to give out great advice to others but when it comes down to it...I am still going through all the things everyone else is too. I have a series of good days and then a series of bad and I guess there are times where I feel weaker than other times. I'm such a strong person, such a stubborn person, and I just can't wait for the day I wake up and not a thought about my anxiety even enter my mind- of course I do not expect this to happen overnight... I've been very patient and have opened myself up to acceptance more than ever over the last month... but is it okay to still have times where I have a little sob, or is that giving in?

Charlotteee89

15-04-14, 23:41

Thats good Charlotte. On the good days, try to work on your issues, it will lift your baseline and help you cope of the worse days.

Was that the guy at work? I seem to recall a thread about something like that on the SA board.

Unfortunately today has been a more 'down' day. I woke up feeling really 'off' anyway - so tired & zombie like & my sinuses were throbbing like mad (I have allergies) so that put me in a bad mood anyway. I've been on & off all day, feeling good then suddenly feeling crappy. But not overally depressive, even though I've had little thoughts. I've noticed I become very sensitive when I'm having a down day though.

& Yes, the guy at work... I don't think that situation is helping but at the same time it's made me feel a lot better these last few weeks. So meh. I keep having irrational thoughts wondering if it wasn't for him maybe I'd be feeling a lot more depressive, it's really cheered me up having him in my life out of nowhere even know the situation isn't ever going to be how I'd like it turn out. But oh well! :)

MyNameIsTerry

16-04-14, 04:10

I think we all feel more sensitised on the bad days. I know if my mood is low, my anxiety is stronger but if my mood is good, I will pass over the sensations more.

See where it goes Charlotte. If you like the guy, why not see what comes of it. He was obviously doubting himself too and no you have both got that "does he, does she" element out of the way, you can do the positive stuff. Just think, a month ago you were very worried & embarrassed about that situation, but you got beyond it and didn't run away from it, you tackled it.

Irrational thoughts are what they are, they question anything & everything but it's how you feel & think that counts, not the intrusive ones.

---------- Post added at 01:43 ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 ----------

I must get into mindfulness a bit more. Any good starting tips ?

Perhaps grab a book on it. It will explain loads of it, give you different techniques to try and hopefully provide some MP3's or a downloadable online library.

I've seen books where there are different styles of Mindfulness so that you practice it for different lengths and in different situations. I think this is important because you are aiming to 'live it' rather than have a time & place to use it.

Sometimes having multiple inductions helps as I found that your trusted ones don't always work, but the ones that didn't work, do.

My next move is to try QiGong. It's Mindfulness with movement really.

---------- Post added at 01:51 ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 ----------

Rach & Phil,

I know exactly what you mean, been there, bought the t-shirt, washed it, ironed it, wore it again [repeat cycle].

I've found that my down periods have got shorter. Initially I had 3 bad weeks to one OK. This went down to 8 bad days, then 5, then 4 and now it's 2-3. I do get the cycle repeating more often, so it may be several bad periods a month or even a bad period weekly at times, but the pattern is on the positive side. The intensity is certainly less when it does come and I can cope or distract myself more which I really couldn't do at the start.

It's worth remembing that and it's why resources like these websites and self help groups are very important. When I hit my low point, I couldn't go out, was anxious about eating, brushing my teeth, showering, shaving and many other things. It really was so irrationally bad...I felt like a right baby! Now though, I'm doing a lot more and I know I can keep taking things on. All of these issues at the worst point that were everyday tasks have really gone, I just don't question it anymore and my anxiety doesn't connect with it.

On another note, has anyone ever heard of a book called Moodmapping? It was written by a doctor who was diagnosed bi-polar early on in her career which was disrupted by the usual lack of treatment. Whilst it is aimed more at bi-polar people, anxiety & depression sufferers are still on that scale, we are catagorised as Unipolar. I've only read bits here and there (I was in WHSmiths) and it's based on 4 mood patterns and how it is important to work with each one, whether good or bad. It's quite interesting and I think a lot of us would connect with.

Here is the 4 states grid:

http://www.moodmapping.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Lymbix-MoodMapping.jpg

And here is one used to track days, which I think is a good way to track your mood patterns (I might have to try this):

http://gonegagainthecity.wordpress.com/tag/mood-mapping/

---------- Post added at 04:10 ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 ----------

A very anxious start turned into a nice day. The weather helps. The evening was almost like being cured. No worries, no anxiety, all my normal feelings and interest back. When like this I cannot even imagine why I have any kind of disorder. Last night I slept like a log, and woke feeling calm and settled and looking forward to a day out with family.
But, and this seems just as strange, I almost felt like it shouldn't be like this. I almost go looking for my anxiety as the calm seems to feel so odd. I know it will show itself at some point and so the slight worry sort of spoils the calm and I start to feel it.

Phil,

It's called Schema Bias. A schema being our beliefs.

Our schema's take in what fits within their parameters and rejected, discount, un-notice, distort, everything that doesn't whether evidence based or not.

So, in recovering it's clear that we need to change our schemas that drive the anxiety & depression.

I've talked about this in the self help groups and others said they also felt this way, weird or that feeling good/being happy is irrational in some way or not the norm. This fits with Schema Bias.

Here are some examples.

http://media.psychologytools.org/Worksheets/English/Schema_Bias.pdf

phil6

16-04-14, 07:29

Terry,
My experience doesn't seem to encourage acceptance, that is I feel little reward sometimes. I am not really finding that carrying on and doing things often with anxiety, and trying to allow it is increasing my good days or making my bad ones any easier or shorter.
I do get good spells, but for me these are maximum half a day. I sometimes get the odd good morning, but my anxiety will normally give me a hard time at some point. And the cycle of following a good day with a second one rarely happens for me.
I think my main problem is the rumination involved.
I often wake early and anxious. I run around in my mind trying to accept, then trying to allow it, then doing breathing, then Mindfullness, then thinking, don't worry about it and so on .. Then I think that everything I am doing is just trying to alter the way I feel and therefore causing more anxiety. I seem to have real problem with just being anxious and allowing myself to feel it. I seem to want to feel anxious and try and feel OK at the same time, probably trying the impossible. The issue for me is I cannot stop thinking, and trying. Whatever track my mind takes, if I am honest I follow with a check to see if it's having any effect... And when it doesn't the anxiety then peaks again. It's a horrible cycle of thinking and feeling, and it leads to frustration and depression.
I have read this morning about Gluten issues. I have heard this before. Off I now go, thinking of trying something new. Always looking for a route out.
I don't know, maybe I will give gluten free a try... But if this was my problem, why was I fine for many years up until last January?
I don't want to be distracted from recovery, which for me seems to have to be passing through these awful sessions in a less fretful way.
I am sat this morning with raging anxiety again and trying to reassure myself by reinforcing acceptance through reading on the Internet and indeed posting here. Anything to either get some relief or feel some kind of confidence that I can sit with this and wait for it to pass. This is the hard bit. I am resisting the despair which is also a real urge when it gets difficult. I am sure that something horrible is going to happen today, some pressure is going to overwhelm me, yet a part of me knows this is all fantasy. I just try so hard to stop being washed away by this anxiety. It's like I need some small thought to carry me through these waves until they break.
Phil