View Full Version : cant see a light at the end of my tunel
guys i know iv posted a few posts recently about moving into my new flat,but im just finding it so hard to believe there is a light at the end of my tunel.im so depressed right now about everything.not having any cash no job no company.and when i move into my flat im going to be so lonely esp with the cold wet weather on its way.no local facilities to me no money for bus fares.i feel a anti climax coming once im in the flat.no money for xmas no cash to spend on my kids.plus i just feel this horid feeling dred all day and night.cant relax dont feel happy never smile no confedance cant talk to people beccause my mental health stops me engagin with anyone at any time.feel lost and empty and hopless
Greg, one thing at a time...you are seeing everything as a negative. You have wanted a place of your own for some time now but now you are seeing it as a negative. Think of it as a positive. Don't look too far ahead, get settled into the flat first and then we will see about the rest. What area will you be in? (pm me the area if you want and I will look online to see if there is any thing for you in the way of support in that area)
Annie is right you need to take baby steps and get settled,you have plenty of time for the other things in life.They will be waiting for you when you are ready
The flat is a great positive,a place to call your own at last
Im trying andy i know what you are saying,but iv just had enough of bumming around day and night and it will be the same when im in my flat.its so hard to find a job at my age which meens no cash no routen no structure in my day,just sitting in all day watching crap tv on my own with no company,i used to be a very socialball guy allways around people,and now im reduced to being a lonley single msn and lost everything
I'm sure you can make new friends again,take one thing at a time get settled into your flat 1st.Then think about the future ,you never know what good things are round the corner
I have recovered 90% but still only take one day at a time,I never think about the what ifs anymore
MyNameIsTerry
10-10-14, 03:55
Annie is right Greg, you were stressed over even getting the flat and getting in there but you achieved it, you did mate.
Its all micro steps with anxiety, any big goals can be intimidating & demotivating. Take small steps here & there and it will build up mate.
Think about what you can do now in your new place. Can you do some DIY, can you do some painting, some drawing, some craft work, learn a new skill, some online learning, etc. It will fill in the void bit by bit and you will feel better for it.
P.S. you are smiling on your avatar, thats what I see everytime I see one of your threads/posts.
Thanks for your support guys,i know you make sense,i wish i could see through the dark clouds.yes i can do DIY im actually very good at it.so that will keep me busy for sometime.at the moment at my sisters i find myself waking every morning around 5.30am for no reason.them find it very hard to go back to sleep.so then im just laying hear on a pritty uncomftable bed.i hate this experiance the tiredness i get from it is not helping me through the day,so im hoping when i get my own bed ill sleep better
You have never been really settled at your sisters and have always had trouble sleeping there so your own place has to be better. When do you move in? Write down all the positives about the move, you will see that there are many. It is all just apprehension at the moment, you are not there yet so bound to have anxieties. A move is a stressful thing for anyone even those who don't have mental health problems. Call the number I gave you today and find out how they can help you.
taking meds can cause the early waking Greg,I know it did with me when I was on sertraline
t0rt01se36
10-10-14, 11:20
Hi.
I recommend you contact the Richmond Fellowship who will visit you, assess you in an informal way and if you are successful, you'll receive a Support Worker, who will help you with financial things and other worries you may be having.
Even though they're a Mental Health org, they aren't there to cure you. It's mainly about referring you to the right people, making sure you're receiving the right Benefits and tenancy issues.
Greg, Just think how good it will be sleeping in your own bed:).
Be positive Greg, Love to you. Sorry I cannot be of more help
You have had good information from friends on nmp.
Take care --and one day at a time Greg:hugs:x
MyNameIsTerry
11-10-14, 02:48
Greg, how about something similiar to DIY then? What about making things, chairs, tables, anything really? Perhaps that would be a good way to spend some time and focus on your DIY skills and it will help you be less anxious because you feel there is nothing to do? You might be able to get reclaimed or scrap stuff to mess about with.
Tortoise - isn't there a few places like the Richmond Fellowship? I'm sure I heard a few different names when I attended the walk-in meetings at a local mental health charity.
Annie a rang that number and got a answerphone,so i left a message,thankyou all for your kind advice and help,ill try my best to take it and act apon it.but today i have new physicle isues .over the past few months iv suffered with pain in both my shoulders and had to lots of steroid injections in them,but since the last few weeks the pain is coming back,each morning i wake both shoulders are in pain and its hanging around through the day,im concerned because if it fully returns ill get very depressed because it was so painful and stoped me from falling asleep and was to painful to live with,there is no operation for them,for some reason fluid builds up on my shoulder joints causing bad pain and restricted movement and range of motion,you can only have two lots of injections a year and iv allready had them,so this is now stressing me out,its one thing after another
Did you do labouring as that may have hurt your shoulders.
You probably got the answering machine as its the weekend I am sure they will phone you back on Monday morning.
Being anxious will create more pain in your shoulders because you will be more tense. It is a vicious circle :(
Hopefully they will phone you back on Monday, if not maybe give them another call.
hope so annie.ill wait till monday..lucy i dont work at the moment and havnt done for 5 years.iv had this problem.for months.annie your prob right.im very tence at the moment and long to be in my own place whete im not under the stress i am at my sisters
I know you don't have a job at the moment Greg, but I just wondered if you had maybe done labouring work in the past and an old injury set this in?
It was great to hear that positive there Greg...you long to be in your own place....keep thinking that way :) When you can start to see the positives you will start to feel calmer and less physical symptoms :) :hugs:
lucy my shoulder injury is from when i used to go to the gym every day.i was quite big and did a lot of body building and funny enough used to look just like a front page picture of the mens health magazen.they were the good old days.i felt good and looked bloody good to...ahhhh i misd them days.felt good looked good tons of confedance and self esteam..im sitting in a pub on my own annie watching everyone happy and singing.i wish i had someone to enjoy my night with and go home with.but i do wishbi was going back to my own home to put some tunes on and chill
I really think that once you get your own place sorted things will start to improve for you. Then you will have somewhere to call your own home and not have to worry about staying with others.
Greg, one thing at a time...you are seeing everything as a negative. You have wanted a place of your own for some time now but now you are seeing it as a negative. Think of it as a positive. Don't look too far ahead, get settled into the flat first and then we will see about the rest
Greg..... Annie's advice is really sound. Plus the encouragement from others here. Do give it time because there will be better days than you are having right now. Don't forget also that moving house is one if the most stressful experiences life can offer.
On top of everything else you've had going on, add moving to the list .... And well.... You can see why you are feeling negative and down. Bit believe me, it is possible to change those things. Yes ... As I have said before, it can take time. I won't deny that. But indeed you need to break this down into smaller chunks.
Deal with one bit before moving onto the next. This is what I have to do alot, it is how I manage to keep going when feeling stressed, emotional, upset, lonely, anxious.
Hugs mate. Big ones.
MyNameIsTerry
12-10-14, 04:20
Was it an injury then Greg? Did they tear or something? Or is it something that has happened as you got older that causes this to flare up like some people get from the colder weather?
Accupuncture is often good for things like this. I had a guy who worked for me years ago who did a lot of rock climbing but he had terrible back issues. He used to go for accupuncture and it worked better than the chiropractors he used before.
Accupuncture is starting to gain evidence for mental health issues as well so maybe a double whammy there?
Sound advice as allways from you all.the move is very stressful and just thinking of all the things iv got to do to get moved in is making my anxiety high,esp being unemployed and having no cash.changing doctors getting gas and electric turned on,getting housing bennefit sorted decorating,and on top of all this iv got to have three fillings in the dentist which i hate and is causing me much anxiety,as i hate the injection part,i hate it when your mouth goes numb,i hate that feeling esp as it stays like that for several hours,got to have two visits starting this tue,.terry it is a old injury in both shoulders and i have to keep having these steroid injections to calm it down,and today iv woke up and cant remember if i had my evening meds or not and feel extra anxious because im not convinced if i did or not and dont want to take any today in case i did,but not sure if i feel anxious today because i didnt take them or im just anxious because i think i didnt take them.in a bit of a mess at the moment
MyNameIsTerry
13-10-14, 05:02
It can be like then about medication, we worry about worsening if we haven't had them and at the same time we worry about doubling up and the side effects. Perhaps best to wait until your next dose is due as these anti depressants tend to have a 36hr half life for things like this?
Make sure you take your elec & gas readings to start your account from. If the previous occupant had an estimate and it was too low, you end up being charged for their usage! Start from the readings you give so its just from your usage.
keep on going Greg ,all this is going work out for you for the best mate :)
Just found out terry the gas and ellectric are both on the cards,pay as you go,but i still need to check them because there are workman in there at the moment which meens there must be ellectric and gas live in the flat,but i need to check to make sure they havnt used the emergency function which gives you £5 on both which means you owe that back,so i dont want to get stuck with that,
When I moved into my new flat at the end of July, both the electricity and the gas were on cards. I had to top them up all the time, luckily the shop is just round the corner from me here, but it was still another thing to have to buy all the time! I have now been able to get them both changed over to normal meters. Be sure to check the readings on both of the meters as soon as you get in and then you could phone the electricity and gas company to change the meters over. Remember if there is credit left, not to take the meter mans word that you will get all the credit back as there is also a charge for the provision of their meters at the property, that caught me out but I was able to recoup the charges as I was not told this at the time.
Lucy what sort of charge do you pay for the meters
I don't know that Greg. The money doesn't last long in them and there is obviously some charge going on daily so it means your money goes less far than with normal billing methods. This means that when the meter comes out they charge back to the date of the removal date of the meter from the property and this gets taken off any credit you had left in the meter so you will know if they credit less to you thats where it went.
---------- Post added at 17:55 ---------- Previous post was at 17:53 ----------
Lucy what sort of charge do you pay for the meters
I think it may be about 12p or more a day onto each meter.
---------- Post added at 18:26 ---------- Previous post was at 17:55 ----------
Lucy what sort of charge do you pay for the meters
I do not have the pay as you go meters now they were replaced by normal credit meters.
I just had them for the first few weeks until hydro and gas changed them, but they do charge £52 a meter each to replace them unless you have had credit meters in your last house with no arrears due to them, so I got the account and the meters changed free of charge.
thanks lucy.i think what ill do is see how much it costs for a couple of weeks on each.if its 12 p a day thats not to bad.i could live with that and at least i wont have to worry about monthly bills for them both
Hi Greg,
That is only the charge per day for having the meter at the property for each meter, On top you will also have to top up the meter and remember not to let it run out or you won't have any heat or light.
You may not be able to get it changed though if you don't have a previous credit record with them.
---------- Post added at 19:17 ---------- Previous post was at 19:14 ----------
thanks lucy.i think what ill do is see how much it costs for a couple of weeks on each.if its 12 p a day thats not to bad.i could live with that and at least i wont have to worry about monthly bills for them both
Its all downhill to the winter, now, unfortunately and time to put the heating on so you will need a fair bit each week into them. £15 a week at least it will cost.
Jesus.not sure how someone unemployed is going to manage that,i know my rent gets paid and council tax,but out of my small doll money iv goto pay gas ellectric food and other debts,not sure how ill do it,
Don't worry about it yet Greg, it might not be so much..one thing at a time :)
Don't worry about it yet Greg, it might not be so much..one thing at a time :)
Yes it will be Annie thats the least it will be I would say nearer to £20 in the winter, you can set it up to direct debit monthly, they will base it on the size of the property and do an estimate, It is always more expensive to begin with until they find out what your real figure is.
Greg, you could get help with carpets and you may be able to get a Community Care Grant if you apply.
They will come to the flat and size it for carpets and curtains and any essential furniture that you may need, cooker, washing machine, fridge, freezer sofa tv etc.
Well im in for a shock then,cos i only get 72 pounds a week to pay for everything,cant see how it can be done
Well im in for a shock then,cos i only get 72 pounds a week to pay for everything,cant see how it can be done
Why not make an appointment at your local CAB to get money advice and they will see if you are getting all the benefits you are entitled to.
What about looking for food banks around that area.
---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:10 ----------
Well im in for a shock then,cos i only get 72 pounds a week to pay for everything,cant see how it can be done
It will cost more than living with friends or relatives as you will have to be responsible for paying all the bills for the house on your own.
I have never had a meter so don't know much about they are regarding cost but I pay about £95 per month for a 3 bedroom house with 2 living rooms, conservatory and large kitchen to heat so I wouldn't think a 1 bedroom flat would cost any where near as much. I guess it depends how much you use and try to be careful with it.
I will be looking into food banks for sure,but the stress of bills etc before i even move in is depressing,iv allready looked into benefits and im not entitled to any other help,bummer,can not imagin how others like me cope on benefits,i supose thats how they get into rent areis and strugle
I have never had a meter so don't know much about they are regarding cost but I pay about £95 per month for a 3 bedroom house with 2 living rooms, conservatory and large kitchen to heat so I wouldn't think a 1 bedroom flat would cost any where near as much. I guess it depends how much you use and try to be careful with it.
Hello Annie,
I paid £68 for my previous 3 bedroomed flat, it was electric storage heating throughout and I did not use much at all.
The 2 bedroomed flat I am in now is an older flat with high ceilings and its got gas and electricity to pay for. I am thinking it will cost more than the previous flat due to its age and its got an old baxi fireplace in the living room.
You may be less if you have a private house with solar panels and lots of wall insulation, which all helps to keep the heating costs down, as does a newer house.
Don't worry about it yet Greg, it might not be so much..one thing at a time :)
I think what Annie said was quite important and shouldn't be overlooked - one thing at a time. There are many different factors and all will become apparant while Greg is settling in. Don't overdo it Greg, there's no need to overload yourself with worries all at once. These things happen in due course but before they happen they can all seem too much.
I will be looking into food banks for sure,but the stress of bills etc before i even move in is depressing,iv allready looked into benefits and im not entitled to any other help,bummer,can not imagin how others like me cope on benefits,i supose thats how they get into rent areis and strugle
I am sure it is but its better not to get into arrears as you end up paying more in the long run if you do.
Then there is the tv licence is another £145 a year on its own.
You also have to buy cleaning things to clean the flat and they are very expensive as well.
Then there is clothing, towels, bedding, furniture etc etc etc.
Thanks pancho,i see what you are saying but the true fact is i only get £72 pw.thats it...out of that i have food to buy gas ellectric plus i smoke have a mobile phone tv licence child maintance plus i have to pay the weekly water rates.just cant see how it can be done this is a true factor
---------- Post added at 20:04 ---------- Previous post was at 20:01 ----------
Exactly lucy,how will i do it
Greg go to the Citizens advise and ask what you can get help with. Your child maintenance should also be reassessed to see what you can afford. Try not to worry about it yet until you see what support you can get.
Did they call you back from the number I gave you?
Thanks pancho,i see what you are saying but the true fact is i only get £72 pw.thats it...out of that i have food to buy gas ellectric plus i smoke have a mobile phone tv licence child maintance plus i have to pay the weekly water rates.just cant see how it can be done this is a true factor
---------- Post added at 20:04 ---------- Previous post was at 20:01 ----------
Exactly lucy,how will i do it
Could you try to stop smoking that would save a lot and do without a mobile phone they also cost a lot of money. If you have extra responsibilities now that you have to pay to live in your own place, perhaps the child maintainance could be cut or waived until you get some sort of job?
They won't let you starve Greg - if you speak to the right person they will reassure you and that will take about an hour at most so there's no panic. You may not have all the facts yet and you may not need to be thinking this through as much as you are. I'm concerned you don't get your head in a spin as you are already feeling pretty low, especially in the evening before bed when you can't address the issue with someone face to face.
Lucy.i dont think im in the right place mentaly to give up smoking at the moment,esp while ill be spending most of my days just sitting around the flat while out of work,dont think i could manage the withdraw symptoms from that untill im happy and working,as for giving up having a phone,thats a no no,its the only comunication i have with the outside world and my parents,plus there is always someone who wants to get in contact with me and by email,for now i need these things,ill look into food bank etc,annie i forgot all about that call,so much on my mind at the mo,but no i didnt get the call back,ill ring again tomorow
Lucy.i dont think im in the right place mentaly to give up smoking at the moment,esp while ill be spending most of my days just sitting around the flat while out of work,dont think i could manage the withdraw symptoms from that untill im happy and working,as for giving up having a phone,thats a no no,its the only comunication i have with the outside world and my parents,plus there is always someone who wants to get in contact with me and by email,for now i need these things,ill look into food bank etc,annie i forgot all about that call,so much on my mind at the mo,but no i didnt get the call back,ill ring again tomorow
Ok I was just thinking about ways you could cut back but the food banks would help you i am sure and that would save a lot if you could get a lot of your food provided and give you somewhere to go to get out of the flat for a minute or two. All the best with the dentist tomorrow.
Thanks lucy.for all your advice
MyNameIsTerry
14-10-14, 05:18
When I moved into my new flat at the end of July, both the electricity and the gas were on cards. I had to top them up all the time, luckily the shop is just round the corner from me here, but it was still another thing to have to buy all the time! I have now been able to get them both changed over to normal meters. Be sure to check the readings on both of the meters as soon as you get in and then you could phone the electricity and gas company to change the meters over. Remember if there is credit left, not to take the meter mans word that you will get all the credit back as there is also a charge for the provision of their meters at the property, that caught me out but I was able to recoup the charges as I was not told this at the time.
Its a daily rental charge that is applied by the meter when you top it up. Its called Fixed Charge Collection (FCC) and it should not be taken off a credit at the point where the meter is removed, it should be charged constantly. This sounds like they hadn't updated your charges correctly so needed to do it out of your finishing credit.
---------- Post added at 05:18 ---------- Previous post was at 04:52 ----------
thanks lucy.i think what ill do is see how much it costs for a couple of weeks on each.if its 12 p a day thats not to bad.i could live with that and at least i wont have to worry about monthly bills for them both
In terms of how your account is managed on your supplier's billing system, you look no different than a customer with a credit meter (bill, DD, etc).
So, the first thing to do is get your MPAN number for your electricity from calling the local MPAS service of the distributor. For the gas you get the MPRN number from the distributor. They just need your address and they will tell you who supplies your gas & elec which may be the same supplier or separate ones.
The next thing to do is go to a shop that uses Paypoint and ask for new cards for each fuel. This is crucial Greg because you cannot use the previous occupants cards because they credit his/her account at the suppliers end and if you do this whilst your fuel will work, you will start to get the suppliers chasing you as you will appear to either be in debt or illegally obtaining fuel. This also means that you don't need to worry about use of emergency credit by the builders because this card starts up from day one and no debt is carried forward. You pay your FCC from this point forward.
Now you need to call your supplier (s) and tell them you have moved in, from what date and give them your opening readings. Since the builders would have used fuel before this point, any debt will be on an account prior to your in the suppliers billing system. If the builders used emergency credit, by placing debt on an account between the previous occupant and yours, the builders have a account ususally termed an 'occupier' account which means the supplier doesn't know who was in there. Suppliers may contact you or even send dent collection letters to your address in the name of 'the occupier' but remember that this is not your debt and to just give them the name of the builder, housing association or council and they will add a separate address to their account so the letters get redirecte. So, don't panic if this happens, its common due to builders who very often try to shaft occupants for their usage! Suppliers are used to it and know what to do once they are given the information.
When you speak to your suppliers, ask them how much your gas & elec are. A new tenant is usually on a standard rate tariff which means it will be higher. Ask them for the price per unit, the FCC (often called standing charge) and if there are any multiple rates e.g. first 500 units at X price then all further units at X price (this is normally per quarter).
You can make savings on your gas & elec but be wary of the supplier trying to tempt you on that first call. Take the details and look around on the internet. Try the comparison websites but make sure you also look at each suppliers own website as sometimes deals are not listed on the comparison websites. Ways that you can save money are a) combining your gas & elec to one supplier b) paying by a preferred means such as DD (I know you can't right now, but you can if you change the meters) c) select a contract that locks you in for X years which brings a lower rate. Be wary of c) if the media are talking about any price hikes or drops as deals change.
An excellent website to talk to people about this is Moneysavingexpert.com. They have a gas & elec utilities board on their. I used to be on there myself when I worked in the industry and I could tell from how people talked in the threads that there were many employees from meter readers & engineers to billing & customer service staff. Feel free to ask me if you need any advice on billing, but I have to say I'm not very aware of the deals side as I've never done much in that area so I'm no better than most consumers on that one!
Prepayment meters can cost more for 2 reasons:
1) The FCC standing charge is a pretty pointless charge that they say justifies the extra attendence of their engineers. Its a weak argument from what I have seen over the years but sadly they all seem to do it for a bit of extra profit.
2) They are more inconvenient as they require more management due to the fact there are constant communications from your cards through the tills at the Paypoints which pass through a network and back to your suppliers. They also love Direct Debit (DD) and give those customers the most so PP customers end up missing out on a lot of deals.
Its worth looking around though because some companies are better than others. Companies such as Ebico tended to charge the same for both types of payment method and some companies don't discriminate in terms of deals.
Just be careful with any lock in for X years type deals because they tend to offer annual discounts and there are t&c's with this which you need to read as some customers end up losing out if they switch to other suppliers too early.
Something else to consider is switching suppliers. By default you are with the one the previous occupant registered to. So, if you see cheaper rates elsewhere, you can switch to a new supplier. This may take a couple of months to go through (4-6 weeks was always the average) but be assured that the date on your switch agreement is the date you leave, regardless of whether your suppliers have sorted out all the paperwork they have to do. Your meters work as usual. If for any reason your old supplier gets your payments in error when you switch, just tell your new supplier as there is an industry process to pass the funds over on your behalf.
Changing from PP to billed (known as Credit) meters can be problematic because suppliers decided to get a bit sneaky about 7 years ago and introduce over inflated meter change charges. Some of these suppliers have been seen to be getting 100%+ profit in this process. This is also expensive but some suppliers are willing to change them for free if you switch to them and your current supplier can't block that.
Also, a point that Lucy raised was having good credit. This is something that suppliers push onto customers "you are new with is, you are a risk". This is rubbish and it always was. You are a new customer and cannot be held accountable for the bad credit of previous occupants. Raising a complaint on this basis often sees such charges waived very quickly. Sometimes they also ask for security deposits, but they can probably justify this by applying a credit check and with you being unemployed this could be a problem and it will likely be hundreds of pounds for 6 months. Switching away to a new supplier who will change them for free in return for your business might work more in your favour.
Sorry thats a lot but I used to see people scammed all the time by utility suppliers so I like to tell you how it works from the other end and get you prepared. :yesyes:
Wow terry,thats a lot of info to take in.im useless with things like this,utilitys etc id allway had it done for me,so will take some time to get my head round it all,ill have to get someone to help me with it,,cheers mate for taking the time to post this advice,
I used the previous tenants cards no problem at all and was not chased for any money.
They did send me new cards, but that was only because they made a mix up and they thought I wanted a pre pay meter put in instead of taken out!
I never used the electric key nor the gas card and I returned them both to them and got put into some draw or whatever!
---------- Post added at 16:52 ---------- Previous post was at 16:42 ----------
Its a daily rental charge that is applied by the meter when you top it up. Its called Fixed Charge Collection (FCC) and it should not be taken off a credit at the point where the meter is removed, it should be charged constantly. This sounds like they hadn't updated your charges correctly so needed to do it out of your finishing credit.
---------- Post added at 05:18 ---------- Previous post was at 04:52 ----------
In terms of how your account is managed on your supplier's billing system, you look no different than a customer with a credit meter (bill, DD, etc).
So, the first thing to do is get your MPAN number for your electricity from calling the local MPAS service of the distributor. For the gas you get the MPRN number from the distributor. They just need your address and they will tell you who supplies your gas & elec which may be the same supplier or separate ones.
The next thing to do is go to a shop that uses Paypoint and ask for new cards for each fuel. This is crucial Greg because you cannot use the previous occupants cards because they credit his/her account at the suppliers end and if you do this whilst your fuel will work, you will start to get the suppliers chasing you as you will appear to either be in debt or illegally obtaining fuel. This also means that you don't need to worry about use of emergency credit by the builders because this card starts up from day one and no debt is carried forward. You pay your FCC from this point forward.
Now you need to call your supplier (s) and tell them you have moved in, from what date and give them your opening readings. Since the builders would have used fuel before this point, any debt will be on an account prior to your in the suppliers billing system. If the builders used emergency credit, by placing debt on an account between the previous occupant and yours, the builders have a account ususally termed an 'occupier' account which means the supplier doesn't know who was in there. Suppliers may contact you or even send dent collection letters to your address in the name of 'the occupier' but remember that this is not your debt and to just give them the name of the builder, housing association or council and they will add a separate address to their account so the letters get redirecte. So, don't panic if this happens, its common due to builders who very often try to shaft occupants for their usage! Suppliers are used to it and know what to do once they are given the information.
When you speak to your suppliers, ask them how much your gas & elec are. A new tenant is usually on a standard rate tariff which means it will be higher. Ask them for the price per unit, the FCC (often called standing charge) and if there are any multiple rates e.g. first 500 units at X price then all further units at X price (this is normally per quarter).
You can make savings on your gas & elec but be wary of the supplier trying to tempt you on that first call. Take the details and look around on the internet. Try the comparison websites but make sure you also look at each suppliers own website as sometimes deals are not listed on the comparison websites. Ways that you can save money are a) combining your gas & elec to one supplier b) paying by a preferred means such as DD (I know you can't right now, but you can if you change the meters) c) select a contract that locks you in for X years which brings a lower rate. Be wary of c) if the media are talking about any price hikes or drops as deals change.
An excellent website to talk to people about this is Moneysavingexpert.com. They have a gas & elec utilities board on their. I used to be on there myself when I worked in the industry and I could tell from how people talked in the threads that there were many employees from meter readers & engineers to billing & customer service staff. Feel free to ask me if you need any advice on billing, but I have to say I'm not very aware of the deals side as I've never done much in that area so I'm no better than most consumers on that one!
Prepayment meters can cost more for 2 reasons:
1) The FCC standing charge is a pretty pointless charge that they say justifies the extra attendence of their engineers. Its a weak argument from what I have seen over the years but sadly they all seem to do it for a bit of extra profit.
2) They are more inconvenient as they require more management due to the fact there are constant communications from your cards through the tills at the Paypoints which pass through a network and back to your suppliers. They also love Direct Debit (DD) and give those customers the most so PP customers end up missing out on a lot of deals.
Its worth looking around though because some companies are better than others. Companies such as Ebico tended to charge the same for both types of payment method and some companies don't discriminate in terms of deals.
Just be careful with any lock in for X years type deals because they tend to offer annual discounts and there are t&c's with this which you need to read as some customers end up losing out if they switch to other suppliers too early.
Something else to consider is switching suppliers. By default you are with the one the previous occupant registered to. So, if you see cheaper rates elsewhere, you can switch to a new supplier. This may take a couple of months to go through (4-6 weeks was always the average) but be assured that the date on your switch agreement is the date you leave, regardless of whether your suppliers have sorted out all the paperwork they have to do. Your meters work as usual. If for any reason your old supplier gets your payments in error when you switch, just tell your new supplier as there is an industry process to pass the funds over on your behalf.
Changing from PP to billed (known as Credit) meters can be problematic because suppliers decided to get a bit sneaky about 7 years ago and introduce over inflated meter change charges. Some of these suppliers have been seen to be getting 100%+ profit in this process. This is also expensive but some suppliers are willing to change them for free if you switch to them and your current supplier can't block that.
Also, a point that Lucy raised was having good credit. This is something that suppliers push onto customers "you are new with is, you are a risk". This is rubbish and it always was. You are a new customer and cannot be held accountable for the bad credit of previous occupants. Raising a complaint on this basis often sees such charges waived very quickly. Sometimes they also ask for security deposits, but they can probably justify this by applying a credit check and with you being unemployed this could be a problem and it will likely be hundreds of pounds for 6 months. Switching away to a new supplier who will change them for free in return for your business might work more in your favour.
Sorry thats a lot but I used to see people scammed all the time by utility suppliers so I like to tell you how it works from the other end and get you prepared. :yesyes:
No I got it changed to my supplier straight away when I forwarded my readings from my past address on the day I moved home. I had no communications from the previous tenants supplier at all. The cards worked well and I had no problem, I got exactly the credit I put in.
---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 16:52 ----------
Do not start using new card/key unless the old card/key has no credit left in it at all or you will lose that credit.
Ok lucy thanks again,the council did tell me there was a debt on the keys,but they have sorted it out,so the old key should be ok i geues
Hi Greg,
It sounds as if the Council has paid off the debt incurred by their workers in taking the flat up to standard for you to move into.
When you put the key or card in it should register and the money you buy at the paypoint transfers onto the meter.
Cool,thats one worry off my plate,lol
MyNameIsTerry
15-10-14, 04:58
Ok lucy thanks again,the council did tell me there was a debt on the keys,but they have sorted it out,so the old key should be ok i geues
Hi Greg,
You can't use the old tenants key mate because within a number programmed into that key there is the account number held on the billing system for the occupant. If you do this, you will just credit the previous occupants account and the supplier will start chasing you as they will start seeing a debt accruing on a new account that gets set up whilst your payments all hit the previous account. It would easily get sorted but you probably don't need the extra hassle and they will also tell you to get new meter keys anyway which means a trip to one of the Paypoints.
Using a previous tenants meter key is a common issue as people don't understand that their is an account number programmed on it. People tend to think that these meters just work by paying and putting the key/card in but in truth this communicates data back to the supplier and they also send messages to your meter (e.g. altering your prices) over this network and the till passes it to your card/key.
---------- Post added at 04:58 ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 ----------
I used the previous tenants cards no problem at all and was not chased for any money.
They did send me new cards, but that was only because they made a mix up and they thought I wanted a pre pay meter put in instead of taken out!
I never used the electric key nor the gas card and I returned them both to them and got put into some draw or whatever!
---------- Post added at 16:52 ---------- Previous post was at 16:42 ----------
No I got it changed to my supplier straight away when I forwarded my readings from my past address on the day I moved home. I had no communications from the previous tenants supplier at all. The cards worked well and I had no problem, I got exactly the credit I put in.
---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 16:52 ----------
Do not start using new card/key unless the old card/key has no credit left in it at all or you will lose that credit.
Hi Lucy,
It would have caused problems as your payments would hit the previous occupants account but these would show up on a report where your account is accrueing debt which shouldn't be the case for PP meters. The staff working that account should check the previous account to see if this has happened and then transfer the cash over.
With you being PP Lucy, when you switched, the old supplier would see a switch even if you hadn't informed them you had moved in and what would happen is they would just open up an Occupier account as your payments would be coming in which would allow them to tally up your usage to your payments. Your new supplier would then update your key/card to direct the payments to them instead so you don't see any impact from it and don't need any new key/cards. Switches have to be future dated in all cases and with PP meters, as long as the suppliers tally everything up between meter charges and your payments, its pretty seamless to you. You will just notice that your start date is future dated from when your first envoice began.
Meter credit is on the meter from the point you insert it. It hits the card/key when its inserted into the till. When you buy anything, it gets sent to your current supplier so it will get allocated to your account but you just have to make sure that if you go to the Paypoint when you are due a meter change, make sure your key/card has been inserted before they change the meter. The meter engineer can credit a new meter, if swapping from PP to PP, but in the case of swapping a PP meter to a credit one, it just sits as a credit on your account and the supplier deducts it from your next monthly/quarterly/6-monthly bill. If you didn't insert it in time, the payment still hits your account at the other end, its just that if going from a PP to PP meter it causes problems as it only hits your suppplier account and won't give you power from the meter so the supplier has to send it to your card/key again but if you were using the same card/key, it would update the new meter as long as its the same type of swiping device.
If the old card/key is from the previous tenant and has credit on, you shouldn't use it because thats not your money. If the supplier finds out that the payments were made prior to your moving in date, they are within their rights to transfer the money to the previous customers account and then refund them. They then update your meter for any power you obtained fraudulently this way. So, in Greg's case if the council have topped it up, the supplier needs to refund this to the council which will occur as Greg's account is started up but if he uses that, then if they spot it they will deal with it. This is one of the reasons for always obtaining a new card/key when you move in, because otherwise you would take the remaining credit that the previous occupant is awaiting a refund on.
You seem to be making things very complicated for both me and Greg Terry.
I had no problems at all. There is no account accruing, I have now credit meters for both my electricity and my gas.
I just bought a few pounds to top it up here and there.
I did phone my supplier before I did this of course and they checked that the meters were at zero before I bought any credit.
I certainly have not used the other occupants money!!
---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------
Hi Greg,
You can't use the old tenants key mate because within a number programmed into that key there is the account number held on the billing system for the occupant. If you do this, you will just credit the previous occupants account and the supplier will start chasing you as they will start seeing a debt accruing on a new account that gets set up whilst your payments all hit the previous account. It would easily get sorted but you probably don't need the extra hassle and they will also tell you to get new meter keys anyway which means a trip to one of the Paypoints.
Using a previous tenants meter key is a common issue as people don't understand that their is an account number programmed on it. People tend to think that these meters just work by paying and putting the key/card in but in truth this communicates data back to the supplier and they also send messages to your meter (e.g. altering your prices) over this network and the till passes it to your card/key.
---------- Post added at 04:58 ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 ----------
Hi Lucy,
It would have caused problems as your payments would hit the previous occupants account but these would show up on a report where your account is accrueing debt which shouldn't be the case for PP meters. The staff working that account should check the previous account to see if this has happened and then transfer the cash over.
With you being PP Lucy, when you switched, the old supplier would see a switch even if you hadn't informed them you had moved in and what would happen is they would just open up an Occupier account as your payments would be coming in which would allow them to tally up your usage to your payments. Your new supplier would then update your key/card to direct the payments to them instead so you don't see any impact from it and don't need any new key/cards. Switches have to be future dated in all cases and with PP meters, as long as the suppliers tally everything up between meter charges and your payments, its pretty seamless to you. You will just notice that your start date is future dated from when your first envoice began.
Meter credit is on the meter from the point you insert it. It hits the card/key when its inserted into the till. When you buy anything, it gets sent to your current supplier so it will get allocated to your account but you just have to make sure that if you go to the Paypoint when you are due a meter change, make sure your key/card has been inserted before they change the meter. The meter engineer can credit a new meter, if swapping from PP to PP, but in the case of swapping a PP meter to a credit one, it just sits as a credit on your account and the supplier deducts it from your next monthly/quarterly/6-monthly bill. If you didn't insert it in time, the payment still hits your account at the other end, its just that if going from a PP to PP meter it causes problems as it only hits your suppplier account and won't give you power from the meter so the supplier has to send it to your card/key again but if you were using the same card/key, it would update the new meter as long as its the same type of swiping device.
If the old card/key is from the previous tenant and has credit on, you shouldn't use it because thats not your money. If the supplier finds out that the payments were made prior to your moving in date, they are within their rights to transfer the money to the previous customers account and then refund them. They then update your meter for any power you obtained fraudulently this way. So, in Greg's case if the council have topped it up, the supplier needs to refund this to the council which will occur as Greg's account is started up but if he uses that, then if they spot it they will deal with it. This is one of the reasons for always obtaining a new card/key when you move in, because otherwise you would take the remaining credit that the previous occupant is awaiting a refund on.
I did nothing of the sort. Both card and key were at zero and this was checked by my supplier.
Both card and key were left to me by the previous occupants. I had to use them to obtain gas and electricity which I paid for at the Paypoint shop.
I had no problems at all and you should not be implying that there is because you are only confusing people.
MyNameIsTerry
16-10-14, 02:42
You seem to be making things very complicated for both me and Greg Terry.
I had no problems at all. There is no account accruing, I have now credit meters for both my electricity and my gas.
I just bought a few pounds to top it up here and there.
I did phone my supplier before I did this of course and they checked that the meters were at zero before I bought any credit.
I certainly have not used the other occupants money!!
---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------
I did nothing of the sort. Both card and key were at zero and this was checked by my supplier.
Both card and key were left to me by the previous occupants. I had to use them to obtain gas and electricity which I paid for at the Paypoint shop.
I had no problems at all and you should not be implying that there is because you are only confusing people.
Sorry Lucy but I am trying to give Greg some advice on how to avoid some of the traps from the point of view of someone who has been on the other side. I am not trying to make things complicated for you or anybody else, as you say you don’t even have PP meters anymore so what I am telling Greg is irrelevant to you.
I did not state or imply that you used anybody else’s credit but I am advising Greg not to use an existing occupant’s meter key/card because he shouldn’t and he should obtain a new one from the Paypoint which will be clear. That’s how it’s always been done. If you use the existing key/card, all the payments you make will simply hit the previous occupants supplier billing account because they will see money coming through next to a serial number that they know belongs to him/her, not Greg. This can be resolved later when any new occupants account start showing up in debt but I’m sure Greg doesn’t want that hassle? (a common mistake people make is that they think they don’t get bills when they have a PP meter but they do, they are termed invoices and have to be sent less often but from the suppliers end they still set up an account for you and it works very similar to a credit meter. Otherwise, you wouldn’t need to be telling them who you are). The fact you called the supplier meant that you avoided this situation because they would have opened up an account for you when you called so that your payments could be then routed there as they would update the serial number on the existing card/key but this is more hassle and more likely to go wrong which is why they have always told people to get a new occupier key/card from a Paypoint or they risk later problems and possible complaints.
Like I said, because you can get a new key/card from the Paypoint, you don’t need an existing one, that’s a mistake people often make. I’m only commenting on this because if Greg does this, he could have more hassle with any existing debt or credit on that key/card whereas a new one zeros it out automatically when you insert it, hence less hassle for Greg.
If Greg needs some help, he can always ask as I said in my original post about this, people get confused and that’s ok so I am not intentionally confusing people as you are stating and I did not imply and will not imply that you have done anything you shouldn’t have. I just wanted to explain how that works and how they will have fixed it for you from their side without telling you but you have to appreciate that not everybody may be so lucky, so why take the chance?
I simply tried to explain this on the back of your advice to Greg, I’m not implying you did anything wrong at all. Originally, all I did was explain that FCC's are daily, not taken in a block when the meter is taken out which is correct as the meter could be in for many years and if they did it this way it would mean charging the customer who has it removed for the usage of others or not charging it at all for those that didn't have it taken out. Utilities can be confusing, you should see how complicated it is from the other side, but knowledge is useful in order to avoid the pitfalls.
Greg - something else as I know the whole tariff/contracts side can be a bit daunting, is that the CAB may be able to give you some advice on this front when you get to that point. For now, just sorting the correct card/keys and phoning your supplier(s) will get you started.
Ok terry.thanks mate ill inquire about it when i get the keys from the council.
Sorry Lucy but I am trying to give Greg some advice on how to avoid some of the traps from the point of view of someone who has been on the other side. I am not trying to make things complicated for you or anybody else, as you say you don’t even have PP meters anymore so what I am telling Greg is irrelevant to you.
I did not state or imply that you used anybody else’s credit but I am advising Greg not to use an existing occupant’s meter key/card because he shouldn’t and he should obtain a new one from the Paypoint which will be clear. That’s how it’s always been done. If you use the existing key/card, all the payments you make will simply hit the previous occupants supplier billing account because they will see money coming through next to a serial number that they know belongs to him/her, not Greg. This can be resolved later when any new occupants account start showing up in debt but I’m sure Greg doesn’t want that hassle? (a common mistake people make is that they think they don’t get bills when they have a PP meter but they do, they are termed invoices and have to be sent less often but from the suppliers end they still set up an account for you and it works very similar to a credit meter. Otherwise, you wouldn’t need to be telling them who you are). The fact you called the supplier meant that you avoided this situation because they would have opened up an account for you when you called so that your payments could be then routed there as they would update the serial number on the existing card/key but this is more hassle and more likely to go wrong which is why they have always told people to get a new occupier key/card from a Paypoint or they risk later problems and possible complaints.
Like I said, because you can get a new key/card from the Paypoint, you don’t need an existing one, that’s a mistake people often make. I’m only commenting on this because if Greg does this, he could have more hassle with any existing debt or credit on that key/card whereas a new one zeros it out automatically when you insert it, hence less hassle for Greg.
If Greg needs some help, he can always ask as I said in my original post about this, people get confused and that’s ok so I am not intentionally confusing people as you are stating and I did not imply and will not imply that you have done anything you shouldn’t have. I just wanted to explain how that works and how they will have fixed it for you from their side without telling you but you have to appreciate that not everybody may be so lucky, so why take the chance?
I simply tried to explain this on the back of your advice to Greg, I’m not implying you did anything wrong at all. Originally, all I did was explain that FCC's are daily, not taken in a block when the meter is taken out which is correct as the meter could be in for many years and if they did it this way it would mean charging the customer who has it removed for the usage of others or not charging it at all for those that didn't have it taken out. Utilities can be confusing, you should see how complicated it is from the other side, but knowledge is useful in order to avoid the pitfalls.
Greg - something else as I know the whole tariff/contracts side can be a bit daunting, is that the CAB may be able to give you some advice on this front when you get to that point. For now, just sorting the correct card/keys and phoning your supplier(s) will get you started.
Hello,
I went to the Paypoint with the card and the key and explained I was new to this but the lady at the till never said anything about getting a new key/card and just put credit on.
I also did not know there were bills issued. I am just glad I changed over quickly and was only on this method for 4-6 weeks so short period of time.
I guess I was lucky as the previous occupants never left any debt on the card either.
The card and key were just left on the kitchen worktop with the address written on the back of the card in felt tip pen.
I assumed of course that the card was just for the use of any occupant as nothing was ever explained and I never heard of any bills, here's hoping they don't come yet!
The only thing I am trying to sort out with my supplier just now is a small credit they did not refund the block daily charge, which, as you say should come off daily and not at the end.
I am just glad I quit this method when I did as DD is much more convenient and cheaper.
Thank you very much.
but does it cost to come off the cards and on to DD .i thought you have to pay for the switch over
Hi Greg,
If you don't want to or cannot change the pre pay meters in your new flat then the meters will just have to be left and you will have to keep paying out at a local shop for your electricity and gas.
If you want to and are eligible for a credit meter you can request that they take out the pre pay meters and install credit meters. They will only do this if you have a good enough credit record and have not missed any payments.
It is when you manage to get a credit meter that you are best to make it Direct Debit as otherwise you end up will bills of hundreds of pounds each quarter ie every three months.
Once you got a credit meter you would phone the electricity and gas supplier and they would do a calculation for you for the next year based on your usage.
The costs can be higher to start off with until you have a years readings for them to see and then they may reduce the payments every month.
If you get onto this system you can then set it up and pay £60 a month or so and not have to worry about a large bill in 3 months time.
It is coming up to the winter months now so you are going to need that bit more electricity and gas so it may be higher in the next few months for the supplies.
---------- Post added at 18:53 ---------- Previous post was at 18:51 ----------
but does it cost to come off the cards and on to DD .i thought you have to pay for the switch over
I was quoted £52 for each meter making it £104 just to get onto the credit meters, but as I had a previous record with my supplier with no missed payments I got the meters changed over free of charge.
If you have never had your own place and paid your own bills before you would have to pay the £104 just to get onto the credit account.
Jesus lucy i cant afford to pay that.ill have to just make do with the pay and go meters and try to keep my costs down.thanks for all your advice on this one,
Hi Greg,
You may be able to get some money from the council to help you set up your new flat.
Why not ask the council about this or you may be able to get a grant or a loan you never know unless you ask.
MyNameIsTerry
17-10-14, 05:50
Hi Greg,
If you don't want to or cannot change the pre pay meters in your new flat then the meters will just have to be left and you will have to keep paying out at a local shop for your electricity and gas.
If you want to and are eligible for a credit meter you can request that they take out the pre pay meters and install credit meters. They will only do this if you have a good enough credit record and have not missed any payments.
It is when you manage to get a credit meter that you are best to make it Direct Debit as otherwise you end up will bills of hundreds of pounds each quarter ie every three months.
Once you got a credit meter you would phone the electricity and gas supplier and they would do a calculation for you for the next year based on your usage.
The costs can be higher to start off with until you have a years readings for them to see and then they may reduce the payments every month.
If you get onto this system you can then set it up and pay £60 a month or so and not have to worry about a large bill in 3 months time.
It is coming up to the winter months now so you are going to need that bit more electricity and gas so it may be higher in the next few months for the supplies.
---------- Post added at 18:53 ---------- Previous post was at 18:51 ----------
I was quoted £52 for each meter making it £104 just to get onto the credit meters, but as I had a previous record with my supplier with no missed payments I got the meters changed over free of charge.
If you have never had your own place and paid your own bills before you would have to pay the £104 just to get onto the credit account.
I'll add a bit on to what Lucy has said about this.
Suppliers are able to charge for meter changes. They stopped doing this because it became unpopular but in the last 6-7 years they started introducing it again to sting customers. They may charge £50 per meter or even £100+ per meter, its purely up to them as little has ever been done to investigate how they are charging for this (some were pulling in 100%+ profit by charging twice & more what they paid for the job to be done!).
There are suppliers who will waive these fees if you switch to them as they want your business. So, this may be an option for you. If you push your current supplier and complain, they may do it free anyway to avoid the issue as they have little ground to justify the high level of some of these charges.
Some suppliers are sneeky and tell you you have to wait 12 months so they can assess your credit. This is wrong because a PP meter may have been installed due to a previous occupants bad credit with them but you can stand up for yourself here and tell them that was not you. Many suppliers fold at that point as they have little legal ground to stand on.
Here is an up to date guide for you form Money Saving Expert that shows these charges:
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/switch-prepaid-gas-electricity
Its a matter of understanding which is the best deal for you. This industry is more complicated than most Greg and thats why a site like that cna be very useful as you can post threads and get advice if needed. The CAB may help you like I said because of your status. Don't worry that you find it complicated, a lot of people do.
Its worth having a read though because savings can be in the hundreds per year by switching around, locking in to deals, etc and this seems quite important to you given your situation.
In your tenancy agreement, does it state you are responsible for the utilities? If not, you can't switch or have your name on the bill either, your landlord does. If you are responsible, you can do what you want in terms of deals & suppliers.
The only thing I will say about DD is that your supplier gets the control and they often overestimate your monthly payments in order to build up credits for the winter periods or even above that. There is a way around this by taking readings a lot and submitting them to your suppliers a lot so they have much more accurate data to estimate with. Suppliers have online reading submission to do this quick & hassle free. When you first start with them they won't have a clue what your usage will be like and the previous occupant is not accurate either. So, they tend to stick to something average or use the last 12 months at the property but you will soon bring this back inline by submitting a lot of readings and this adjusts your DD inline.
Have a look at that guide and see what it recommends for the prices for your PP meter too because some suppliers, such as Ebico, were always known to charge the same values regardless of the type of meter as opposed to the old fashioned method of charging higher for PP meters.
---------- Post added at 05:50 ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 ----------
Hello,
I went to the Paypoint with the card and the key and explained I was new to this but the lady at the till never said anything about getting a new key/card and just put credit on.
I also did not know there were bills issued. I am just glad I changed over quickly and was only on this method for 4-6 weeks so short period of time.
I guess I was lucky as the previous occupants never left any debt on the card either.
The card and key were just left on the kitchen worktop with the address written on the back of the card in felt tip pen.
I assumed of course that the card was just for the use of any occupant as nothing was ever explained and I never heard of any bills, here's hoping they don't come yet!
The only thing I am trying to sort out with my supplier just now is a small credit they did not refund the block daily charge, which, as you say should come off daily and not at the end.
I am just glad I quit this method when I did as DD is much more convenient and cheaper.
Thank you very much.
Hi Lucy,
Yeah, you can get much better deals on DD. The only problem is that suppliers tilt the averages i their favour but customers have got really savvy on this in the last 5 years by submitting a lot of readings and kicking their supplier to lower DD's in summer and getting their credit balances back.
When you mentioned about that daily charge being taken as a block when you had the meter out it made we think that they had set the FCC too low. Also,, when suppliers update their charges, they send the new ones to your key/card which is then adjusted when you buy your next credit and insert it into the meter. Sometimes this doesn't update and the supplier needs to send out an engineer to physically override it with his engineers key/card. Sometimes this goes unnoticed and there have been various reports in the press about customers who have received bills ranging from hundreds to thousands due to the build up. New rules we brought into to prevent suppliers chasing for charges over a certain age due to this as it was their responsibility to check these charges as its hard for a customer to know this as they only receive invoices at X periods (doesn't have to be quarterly) and they won't think of checking them as PP should be nice and easy. You find that on the invoice, you are falling into debt because the rental charge is higher on the supplier's billing system than on your meter. So, steadily your invoice shows you in debt which shouldn't happen on a PP meter.
Did they tell you why it happened? If they told you it has to come off when the meter is removed, they lied.
They could charge you for the difference if your meter failed to update. You could only be charged from the date you occupied the property first to the date that meter was removed. But there are rules about how long, I would have to refresh my memory, but I think it was that charges older than 12 months could not be chased...but I know when I was in the industry that directors had their staff chasing for this as well but if a customer refused and quoted the 12 month rule they would immediately back down (just one of the many dirty tricks in this industry!).
You may find that a refund was placed onto your bill as a credit so it justs comes off your next bill. Can you see anything like that showing in the first bill you received on your new meter?
I don't think there will be any other issues over your card though as you called them very quickly and that would have caused them to update your card with your account number so your payments would have gone through fine. If it was a while ago, I think you will be safe there.
My electricity was moved over to credit meter last week of August and the gas on the 12th of September.
I just reminded the electricity meter man that I had £5 credit, then he said ok i have noted that yes, yet when I got the statement in the post it said I only had 60p. I phoned the supplier and told them I had £5. They are still trying to sort this out as they kept saying they had credited the £5 back to me but yet I couldnt see it. Then next time I emailed they said it had been to cover the daily charge so I wouldnt get it all back. I raised a complaint to get it refunded and I am still trying to get it sorted out.
I phoned them and the lady said she would send me my last bill from my old property straight away so I could see everything on it, yet she didnt do so and I am still following it through online and by phone to get a breakdown of my last bill, so unless you follow them up you get nothing.
thanks for all the info terry very interesting reading.ill have to do some research into all this and make sure i get it all sorted for when i move in as i dont want any finantial suprices.lucy i hope you get your refund as every penny counts.
MyNameIsTerry
18-10-14, 04:44
My electricity was moved over to credit meter last week of August and the gas on the 12th of September.
I just reminded the electricity meter man that I had £5 credit, then he said ok i have noted that yes, yet when I got the statement in the post it said I only had 60p. I phoned the supplier and told them I had £5. They are still trying to sort this out as they kept saying they had credited the £5 back to me but yet I couldnt see it. Then next time I emailed they said it had been to cover the daily charge so I wouldnt get it all back. I raised a complaint to get it refunded and I am still trying to get it sorted out.
I phoned them and the lady said she would send me my last bill from my old property straight away so I could see everything on it, yet she didnt do so and I am still following it through online and by phone to get a breakdown of my last bill, so unless you follow them up you get nothing.
Hi Lucy,
The meter engineer keys data off the meter into his handheld device and this is sent back to his office where it is deprogrammed and passed on electronically to your current supplier. This includes the credit remaining on the meter at the time. So, if your £5 credit was showing on the meter, the supplier would receive notification of it. So, they can check this and tell you. The call centre staff might not be able to access this information, as its more complicated & time consuming so they don't always allow them access so they can't lenghten their call hanlding times. The back office staff can see it though, so it can be retrieved and checked for you. Its a very simple process to them taking a matter of maybe 15 seconds.
The only time this can go wrong is either a) data goes missing or is keyed in wrong so your supplier can't see an error or b) you have recently purchased energy at the Paypoint but didn't insert your key/card into the meter before the enginerr removed it.
In the case of b), it can easily be traced because everytime you make a purchase at a Paypoint, it sends an electronic notification to your supplier. Your supplier then applies this to your account. So, was this £5 from your last top up? If so, can they confirm they received it? If they can't find it, this kind of takes us back to a) above in that we have some missing data and the supplier will ask you to confirm the payment from a receipt or it can be traced off the tills paper receipts in the shop just like any other purchase.
In the case of a) it can be a bit more problematic. However, as long as your supplier received all the electronic notifications from the Paypoint, they can tell you that it is still on your account even if the meter removal data doesn't show it. They could opt to remove it from your account to tally it up to your meters value (does that make sense?) so the credit is no longer there. However, it was always there before from receipt of electronica data from the Paypoint. All data that suppliers receive electronically from their agents has to be stored for years so it can easily be traced, but again the call centres wouldn't normally be doing this type of work as they are too limited in fixing problems so I expect they would refer it to back office where you go into a queue with all the others issues.
Coming back to a) again, if they can't find anything to agree to give you the £5, they still have the option of contacting their Meter Operator Agent (the company that employs that meter engineer that did the work) and ask them to confirm the data or investigate it further and these guys could trace the meter and check it again. Tracing the meter is something that is only ever done by very experienced members of back office administration as most staff won't know how to do this. I do because I have done work like this and spent a lot of time working with agents to resolve very complex problems, writing processes for this, training & managing teams who do it, etc. They can even test that meter if they need to when its on the bench or send it back to the manufacturer for internal testing (only manufacturers or the regulator OFGEM in employing a legalally binding senior tester for disputes).
Another issue sometimes seen with meter changes is that if the meter readings don't look correct, the suppliers reading agents are allowed to Deem a new set. This is essentially an estimation based on your previous consumption and some other seasonal adjustments. Sometimes suppliers even ignore the meter readings and estimate their own. This is less common, but it does happen. It seems unlikely they would discard readings for that decrease your credit by £4.40. So, a possibility might be that despite the meter engineer taking them on his handheld, he either keyed them in wrong or they went 'missing' in some way. If this happens, it can be tricky because unless you can confirm what they were, they really need to trace the meter and check it again.
So, you could start asking them:
1) Can you confirm you received X payment on X date.
2) Can you tell me what the credit was that was showing on the meter when it was removed.
3) Can you tell me what readings were used to remove the meter. Were they estimated or Deemed, or even replaced at any point.
From that you can determine whether a) or b) above may be an issue for you. I really hope they haven't removed that £5 credit to balance the account to zero for your meter change, because that would see it as a legitimate payment coming in from you. If they did do this, it will only ever be due to a mistake but its worth you knowing so you can be aware of the pitfalls of service cock ups.
From a billing perspective at the suppliers end, a credit meter or PP meter need an account. This allows them to store the meter number against your address and your name. They then feed your readings into it and your payments so it balances and then they send you an invoice at certain intervals set by the regulator, Ofgem.
So, when you get such an invoice it will show the total value of credits from your payments vs. the usage made of of units purchased (some tariffs may have 2 prices for the same rate e.g. first 250 units at X then all other units at X).
On this account they then perform your meter change to your credit meter. This would normally show on the same bill when you get your first credit meter bill. However, suppliers have been upgrading to newer systems in recent years and they have a tendency to give you a brand new account number if you change your meter payment type like you have done. This would mean that if they gave you a new account number for your credit meter, you would also have an old PP account that now shows as closed but has a £5 credit on it. This credit would be transferred to your new account and when you get your first credit meter bill you will see a £5 credit showing separately from any payment you may have made on DD (should be separate anyway!)
If your supplier uses the older system of keeping the same account number regardless of changing your meter payment type like you have done, it would mean that in your first bill for your credit meter it will show the meter removal of your old PP meter i.e. closing reading and debt plus a new line showing the opening reading of your new credit meter with any billed debt up to your next bill date that your DD will be paying towards.
The issue of taking the standing charge off when the meter is removed makes little sense to me. It has to be charged daily and it is deducted from your credit each day on top of any units you use. The only reason I can think of for paying additional charges is if it had stopped deducting it due to a fault or that they had increased the daily charge but it hadn't updated your meter. However, its a very small amount and it tends be to quite a lot when you have issues with increased charges no updating, unless maybe they have done it very recently?
I don't think they are correct here. Maybe this was a call centre blag? By saying they had credited back to you, that sounds like they had placed it on your account. It should have always been there from when they received notification of your payment unless maybe it got stuck, didn't apply and they have had to force it onto your account.
Can you see anything worth £5 in that bill? Or did they say they had done this afterwards? If afterwards, ask for a replacement bill as the one you have is incorrect and it should show. Its always been standard procedure not to refund a credit like this from a PP to credit meter change in a cheque to a customer because they prefer to keep it to take from your first credit bill.
Does that make sense? If not, feel free to ask any questions. Something I often found from helping people on the utility forums is that suppliers often blag people and the call centre staff are often poorly trained. If you spoke to back office administration staff, you would easily resolve an issue like this because they do this kind of stuff all day long.
Something else to consider is escalation. From the first time you notified them, they have 8 weeks to resolve the issue to your satisfaction or you have the right to raise a complaint with the independent ombudsman. See here:
http://www.ombudsman-services.org/energy.html
The last I heard, over 12 months ago, it cost suppliers £375 just for getting one of these complaints regardless of the outcome. So, suppliers are quite keen to stop it getting this far and sometimes mentioned you are aware of this process can give them a little nudge. The ombudsman can impose a time limit on them resolving customer issues and I would expect in your case that they would just throw the £5 on your account to avoid paying out the fee.
I know that a lots, but maybe you can look at what I have said and see if it sheds any light on what you can see on your bill or what they have told you. I don't mind trying to give you some ideas about where it could be or what to poke & prod at with them.
Its true that you have to give them a kick. They are on a clock though now.
Terry, they have been trying to resolve this with me, but they said it was showing on my online bill but it was not and its taken me weeks to try and sort it out with them.
I don't know whats happened to them they used to be a good company but now they just seem to make errors.
They said the final credit was only 60p and the only explanation I got from them earlier was that the rest of the £5 had been used to pay off my standing daily charges for having the meter at my property and that the engineer who came out should have made me aware of this?
They also have sent me a refund for debiting 2 sets of direct debits from my old address and for this new address, I only got this stopped when I called them after looking at my account! Its hard enough to pay £60 a month without being charged £120 a month!
They have issued me a refund to my bank account but they have failed to provide a breakdown of the details so I have to keep asking them and asking them to provide it.
MyNameIsTerry
19-10-14, 08:46
Sometimes this seems to happen Lucy, a customer has 5 years with no problems and as soon as one thing happens to them they seem to experience some form of domino effect even when there is no connection. I guess its like the waiting for a bus and 3 turn up thing.
The DD duplication is quite common sadly. What often happens is they close your old account too late and until they do it, you still have an active DD instruction on there so their system just sweeps it automatically even if you were well in credit. Its a bit of a catch 22 issue because if you cancel it before they close your account to produce your final bill it can mean you lose the DD discount on the final bill and end up arguing over that! If it happens again, the quickest way is too tell your bank and ask them for an indemnity payment. This means they put the money back in straight away for you whereas suppliers tend to use the BGC method which can take 3-5 days to reach your bank. If the value is high or it would really cause you financial headaches and complain, suppliers do have the ability to put it back the same day via CHAPS but it costs them so they try to steer clear of it. If they caused you any bank charges or other 3rd party charges from other companies, they are liable to pay them in your scenario.
The breakdown of your details, do you mean the final bill showing the amount in credit at the time? If so, they just need to send you a copy bill which is a very simple process. they should have sent you a final bill showing any overpayment like this. You could complain and ask for them to detail this in writing and they should provide you will a breakdown in a letter at least.
If you can't see it on your online bill, I can't see how they can because they would be looking at the same thing. The only possibility would be that they have an in-house online system and one for customers, but they only need to log on via the internet route to clarify your view. What they may mean is that they can see it on their billing system but this will be the main one they use and online systems are usually bolt ons that are updated on a regular basis (daily in the week but can be less frequent at weekends and bank holidays may not update at all) by their IT guys running scheduled batch updates. So, sometimes there can be a time delay but it would be brief. Maybe they hadn't actually looked at your online account and were looking at their main billing system view because thats what all staff will use. I'm surprised the call centre staff even see the online view, maybe someone checked for them but if that was whilst you were on the call I think I would be a little suspicious of whether they actually did it.
That meter issue is dodgy to me. The meter man is under no obligation at all to tell you that, he's just there to change it over. A lot of the Meter Operator Agents are independent contracted companies anyway so they have no interest other than to follow the obligations that the industry sets on them. It sounds like this is bunch of lies to me so keep pushing with your complaint and throw it the ombudsmans way when its time.
Hello Terry,
Well I have finally been able to get the £5 credit refunded to me and I can now see it on my online billing accounts. I think they were just fobbing me off before I pursued it and hoped I would not notice it was not added to my credit balance. I took the gas meter man at his word so goodness knows what he did with the £5?
I also got the amended bill from my old property address so I now know where all the figures come from.
Today, I took readings from both my electricity meter and my gas meter and inputted the numbers into my online account. This is useful so that I can see how much this is going to cost me over the winter months or at least estimate it. I can see that its going to be a good bit more than £60 a month in the winter as its an old property!
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