View Full Version : My Health Anxiety Diary
I'm hoping this will be made sticky by one of the mods as I think it will interest quite a few of you.
Anyone who has read my book (link in signature) will know that I had severe health anxiety for 8 years. It lasted through most of my 20s basically, and it was horrendous. Anyway, when I got an iPhone in late 2009 I downloaded a diary app and started to write down my symptoms. Until tonight, I thought this diary was lost - the app had been deleted from the phone (which is now used by my wife). I re-downloaded it and lo and behold the data is still there. So I am going to show you what I wrote from 4 years ago.
Why am I bothering?
To show you how bad a person can be, and how they can get better. I am free of health anxiety now - I only come on here these days to help people and to generate awareness of my book. But you will see how bad I was, and maybe you will relate - hopefully it will fill you with optimism, and the belief that if you put your mind to it you can stop worrying about your health and get better.
You will probably think after reading some of this that I was seriously mentally ill. I am a degree-educated, outwardly confident individual with good social skills and a successful business career. This HA has always been my dark secret only known to those closest to me. If you're confused as to why I'm mentioning things like what I had to eat for breakfast, it's because back in 2010 in the depths of my HA I was utterly obsessed by my symptoms and I was looking for patterns - food intolerances etc. In short I was a complete mess, and I didn't think there was a way out.
Here's the first entry, more will follow:
Weds 27 Jan 2010:
A good morning, Ricicles for breakfast and went swimming - 15 lengths and a very brief sauna. Had 2 pieces of toast at 12pm.
12:20pm -chest and neck feeling tight again, radiating to head. Worrying again because it doesn't feel like stomach problems and it's upper chest. But it's fairly mild and gets worse in waves. Makes me feel panicky.
12:30pm - had 2 aspirin.
1:30pm - went for 30 min walk, felt fine on walk, no chest tightness at all but as soon as sitting down again at home chest tightness is back radiating to my back aswell. 2 out of 10 on a pain scale but seems to get worse in waves.
4pm - been on sofa all afternoon. Chest pain calmed down but now feeling ill, as if blood sugar is low. Feeling sick and getting palpitations, discomfort in upper stomach/lower chest. Lots of skipped heartbeats. Had one bisodol (antacid tablet). Lying down resting.
Curious, what's the point of this post?
flatterycat
27-11-14, 08:00
Thanks Skippy - hopefully we will be able to see that no matter how low we sink in HA, we can always get better. It's easy to assume that no one has it as bad as we do at the time - I know I often think that. Hearing that people do in fact struggle terribly, but still beat HA helps so much.
Sx
Awaiting further posts. I would so love to be cured but how do we cope if it really is the big C and not HA?
Curious, what's the point of this post?
Thought I had spent the first 4 paragraphs explaining that!!!!!
You did Skippy and very well at that! Great idea Lucia :)
Awaiting further posts. I would so love to be cured but how do we cope if it really is the big C and not HA?
You would just cope. And it would make you realise how very silly all that worrying in the past had been (instead of you living life to the absolute fullest).
Fishmanpa is better qualified than me to answer that question though. You should read his posts as he is an inspiration.
Awaiting further posts. I would so love to be cured but how do we cope if it really is the big C and not HA?
it's strange what we can handle when we're faced with it dead on. it's the unknown that i personally feel is the root of HA. that and the loss of control.
I always use the aeroplane analogy. People with HA are the ones who grip the armrests, jittery and panicky because they can not control what the pilot is doing. Every little jolt of turbulence is terrifying for them. Everyone else just sits back, grabs a beer and enjoys the ride, relaxed and distracted by the in-flight entertainment.
That aeroplane journey is life itself in this analogy. So concerned are HA sufferers about staying safe in the air for as long as possible, they don't enjoy the journey itself. And it's sad because that journey is all we have.
Makes a ton of sense to me. Also skippy, I appreciate you sharing this a lot. It was so strange to me how similar it sounded to the diary I started keeping at the beginning of last month.
Serenity1990
28-11-14, 04:30
"Anyone who has read my book (link in signature)..."
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I find it utterly disgraceful that you relentlessly use the vulnerable people on here to make sales. Every post mentions your book in one way or another, that's the only reason you come one here, and it really saddens me that then moderators of this site allow it. Especially given you have absolutely none of the requisite qualifications to give out the medical advice you do.
"Anyone who has read my book (link in signature)..."
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I find it utterly disgraceful that you relentlessly use the vulnerable people on here to make sales. Every post mentions your book in one way or another, that's the only reason you come one here, and it really saddens me that then moderators of this site allow it. Especially given you have absolutely none of the requisite qualifications to give out the medical advice you do.
I'm sorry you feel this way. In the time I've been on the boards, Skippy has done nothing but encourage and offer sound advice and helped many. Perhaps you should read his book (which I have) before you become judge and jury.
Positive thoughts
Honestly in cases like HA, experience is much more valuable than medical advice.
For me, I'm so glad I read cpe's post at the beginning of all this.
"Anyone who has read my book (link in signature)..."
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I find it utterly disgraceful that you relentlessly use the vulnerable people on here to make sales. Every post mentions your book in one way or another, that's the only reason you come one here, and it really saddens me that then moderators of this site allow it. Especially given you have absolutely none of the requisite qualifications to give out the medical advice you do.
You're entitled to your opinion but I must pull you up on the bit I've highlighted in bold:
I do not give out medical advice, nor do I claim to have any medical qualifications whatsoever.
Oh, and the bit about using the vulnerable people to make sales - this is total rubbish too, but as I said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I would like to think I've been pretty helpful to most people on here.
If you don't want to read my posts why don't you just block me?
flatterycat
28-11-14, 17:06
We need more people on here who have been through HA and recovered. Without them we would struggle to see that things can get better.
Agreed. I'd rather read things like this.
Serenity1990
28-11-14, 20:35
We need more people on here who have been through HA and recovered. Without them we would struggle to see that things can get better.
Absolutely, this forum wouldn't work otherwise. But the reality is the individual in question only comes on to plug his book.
I think this is in danger of degenerating away from it's intended purpose. Skippy helped me immensely when I was at my lowest. Not directly, but in some of his posts. I will forever be grateful for the time that people who have recovered take, and heck if someone manages to make some pocket money on the side from talking about their experience then all the better. It's hardly J K Rowling :)
Absolutely, this forum wouldn't work otherwise. But the reality is the individual in question only comes on to plug his book.
There's something about the 99% and the 1% that comes to mind here....
Positive thoughts
Absolutely, this forum wouldn't work otherwise. But the reality is the individual in question only comes on to plug his book.
Probably the best bet is then you avoid his posts, as quite clearly you are in the minority.
MyNameIsTerry
30-11-14, 04:05
I always use the aeroplane analogy. People with HA are the ones who grip the armrests, jittery and panicky because they can not control what the pilot is doing. Every little jolt of turbulence is terrifying for them. Everyone else just sits back, grabs a beer and enjoys the ride, relaxed and distracted by the in-flight entertainment.
That aeroplane journey is life itself in this analogy. So concerned are HA sufferers about staying safe in the air for as long as possible, they don't enjoy the journey itself. And it's sad because that journey is all we have.
I think you mean anxiety disorder, not HA Skippy. Any level of anxiety disorder can latch on to stressful situations or transfer into creating a new phobia or disorder but I'm sure people without anxiety disorders can still feel fear and may respond in the same manner.
Can I ask, are you going to create a blogpost from the diary? I ask because its going to disappear under the sheer volume of posts on this board and perhaps a link to a blog can be made into a sticky or inside a current sticky?
---------- Post added at 04:05 ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 ----------
"Anyone who has read my book (link in signature)..."
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I find it utterly disgraceful that you relentlessly use the vulnerable people on here to make sales. Every post mentions your book in one way or another, that's the only reason you come one here, and it really saddens me that then moderators of this site allow it. Especially given you have absolutely none of the requisite qualifications to give out the medical advice you do.
I understand what you are saying, and I have seen other recovered sufferers use forums to generate sales (I've reported one on here in the past who's linked were removed by the mods) so it comes down to whether the mods are ok with it.
Skippy was quite honest where he said "I only come on here these days to help people and to generate awareness of my book." so I think as long as the mods have agreed it, its allowed and both sides of the argument need to remember this as well as the fact its an open forum so we all have a right to post if we wish to, 99% or 1%, its irrelevant.
Serenity1990
30-11-14, 16:23
There's something about the 99% and the 1% that comes to mind here....
Positive thoughts
Couldn't give a flying **** if my opinions are in the minority tbh mate, they're still my opinions. Psychologists need 6-8 years of intensive learning to qualify to even assess a patient, let alone put together a programme for recovery. Skippy has zero years under his belt yet feels qualified to not only write a book dishing out medical advice (let's not forget mental illness is medical illness), but feels it appropriate to come onto forums populated by desperate, vulnerable people promoting his magic beans.
Now whilst I perfectly understand that his advice on here has helped people, as advice from all of us who contribute to the forum has helped others, I am entirely uncomfortable with someone without any experience or qualifications in the field in question (other than his own short illness) putting themselves on a self-propegated pedestal potentially harming or holding back thousands of people, all in the search of profit.
If you want to contribute on here, great, it'll be massively appreciated by many. But If your only motive is to publicise a book (well more of an overpriced short pamphlet) then I personally would strongly urge the admin to rethink their positions.
Skippy has zero years under his belt yet feels qualified to not only write a book dishing out medical advice (let's not forget mental illness is medical illness), but feels it appropriate to come onto forums populated by desperate, vulnerable people promoting his magic beans.
Last I checked it wasn't medical advice. It's just what worked for him in his recovery. If you look back at his post history, you'll see Skippy was in a really bad place. He sought help and all he's doing is paying it forward with relating his experiences. And if his book sells a few copies in the mean time and helps others, more power to him. Again, I've read it and it's very practical advice that any qualified physiological practitioner would dish out.
You're right, you have every right to express your opinion. I think the jist of my post was "if it bothers you that much then don't read it".
Positive thoughts
Skippy isn't claiming to be a psychologist or a psychiatrist. He's speaking from experience. Honestly, psychologists didn't help me any. Haven't for the last ten years so...you know, honestly some things do need hands on experience and that alone.
Serenity1990
30-11-14, 19:49
You're right, you have every right to express your opinion. I think the jist of my post was "if it bothers you that much then don't read it".
It bothers me that others who are currently in a vulnerable position have the potential to be profiteered from by this individual. I don't understand how you think me not reading his posts will prevent this?
Serenity I have resisted entering into this discussion with what I think, but with the greatest of respect you have made your point. It works for some, doesn't work for you, that's fine. You have an issue with someone profiting from this, that is fine too. But the point of this thread was to highlight an experience of HA which is something we all share.
What I do have an issue with though is you adopting such a critical position when you have repeatedly given people 'medical advice' regarding neurological conditions. Making statements of fact which unless I have missed something and you are a qualified neurologist is directly in conflict with the criticisms you are labelling in this thread. Assuming I haven't missed anything then statements like, 'MS doesn't present that way', is at best informed by anecdote or desktop research and at worst founded in nothing.
Doesn't seem any different to me aside from Skippy is talking about experience of having suffered and recovered from something, whereas you are potentially preventing people visiting a clinician on the basis of statements of fact presented on an Internet forum concerning neurological conditions. I know which I have the greater problem with. Perhaps people in glass houses.........
---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:16 ----------
Skippy isn't claiming to be a psychologist or a psychiatrist. He's speaking from experience. Honestly, psychologists didn't help me any. Haven't for the last ten years so...you know, honestly some things do need hands on experience and that alone.
^^^^^ that.
Serenity1990
30-11-14, 20:30
Serenity I have resisted entering into this discussion with what I think, but with the greatest of respect you have made your point. It works for some, doesn't work for you, that's fine. You have an issue with someone profiting from this, that is fine too. But the point of this thread was to highlight an experience of HA which is something we all share.
What I do have an issue with though is you adopting such a critical position when you have repeatedly given people 'medical advice' regarding neurological conditions. Making statements of fact which unless I have missed something and you are a qualified neurologist is directly in conflict with the criticisms you are labelling in this thread. Assuming I haven't missed anything then statements like, 'MS doesn't present that way', is at best informed by anecdote or desktop research and at worst founded in nothing.
Doesn't seem any different to me aside from Skippy is talking about experience of having suffered and recovered from something, whereas you are potentially preventing people visiting a clinician on the basis of statements of fact presented on an Internet forum concerning neurological conditions. I know which I have the greater problem with. Perhaps people in glass houses.........[COLOR="blue"]
Whilst I do fully accept this, the crucial difference is when I try to help people on here it is out of the goodness of my heart and not the hunger of my wallet. I would have no problem if Skippy stuck his pamphlet into PDF form and linked to it for free on here.
Crucially also what is written on a forum is effectively peer-reviewed: if somebody says something that is wrong it can be criticised and discussed. It is true that whilst MS and anxiety have nigh on the exact same synptom list, the pattern in which they present is entirely different; whilst it is appropriate for me as an unqualified person with experiences to seek to reassure people on here because my comments are peer reviewed by other members, it would be entirely inappropriate for me to write and charge for a book about it. Virtually none of us on here are qualified to help people through mental illness, we can only speak from experience.
Whilst I do fully accept this, the crucial difference is when I try to help people on here it is out of the goodness of my heart and not the hunger of my wallet. I would have no problem if Skippy stuck his pamphlet into PDF form and linked to it for free on here.
Crucially also what is written on a forum is effectively peer-reviewed: if somebody says something that is wrong it can be criticised and discussed. It is true that whilst MS and anxiety have nigh on the exact same synptom list, the pattern in which they present is entirely different; whilst it is appropriate for me as an unqualified person with experiences to seek to reassure people on here because my comments are peer reviewed by other members, it would be entirely inappropriate for me to write and charge for a book about it. Virtually none of us on here are qualified to help people through mental illness, we can only speak from experience.
I don't disagree with you regarding why anyone would say anything on here, not questioning that at all. Just making the point that you are throwing criticisms that could just as equally be levelled at you. I don't doubt your motive at all.
What is written on an Internet forum is not peer reviewed. Certainly not by peers that have a background in the discussion topic. When someone refers to something as being peer reviewed in a medical sense they mean by experts in the field. I doubt that a forum full of quite anxious and often depressed people count as a valid reference for statements regarding neurological disorders. So I have to disagree - stating something as medical fact on these forums is in my opinion completely wrong, constitutes medical advice and is against the big sticky at the top of the page. In many ways I wish mods would clamp down more, but then I imagine that the forum would die so I guess you have to take the rough with the smooth. But seeking to reassure is very different from making medical statements of fact - you deviate frequently into the latter.
So I am going to stop wittering now as it isn't helpful other than to say.
There is a myriad of health research to highlight the importance of peer support as a self management technique - even more powerfully so in the field of mental health. I think that should be what the forum is about, and when it is like that it is genuinely amazing. Some of that is about sharing experience and learning from one another. Without giving too much away, I am very well qualified to comment on this :)
Hope that makes my point clearly, I don't mean to pick a fight, but profit motive aside (which in honesty in financial terms I imagine is precious little motive actually) I think that experience sharing is the best that can possibly be offered on this forum. It is certainly what got me out of a hangout hole.
While having a book on the top of the sales charts like Claire Weeks would be certainly beneficial, Skippy's book doesn't fall into that category nor is it his motivation for writing it. I've gotten to know this man in my time on the boards and that was NOT his motivation for writing it. If it helps others and adds a few bucks in the process, I personally don't have an issue with it and having that tag is not his personal motivation for doing so (IMO).
Positive thoughts
Serenity1990
30-11-14, 21:27
I don't disagree with you regarding why anyone would say anything on here, not questioning that at all. Just making the point that you are throwing criticisms that could just as equally be levelled at you. I don't doubt your motive at all.
What is written on an Internet forum is not peer reviewed. Certainly not by peers that have a background in the discussion topic. When someone refers to something as being peer reviewed in a medical sense they mean by experts in the field. I doubt that a forum full of quite anxious and often depressed people count as a valid reference for statements regarding neurological disorders. So I have to disagree - stating something as medical fact on these forums is in my opinion completely wrong, constitutes medical advice and is against the big sticky at the top of the page. In many ways I wish mods would clamp down more, but then I imagine that the forum would die so I guess you have to take the rough with the smooth. But seeking to reassure is very different from making medical statements of fact - you deviate frequently into the latter.
So I am going to stop wittering now as it isn't helpful other than to say.
There is a myriad of health research to highlight the importance of peer support as a self management technique - even more powerfully so in the field of mental health. I think that should be what the forum is about, and when it is like that it is genuinely amazing. Some of that is about sharing experience and learning from one another. Without giving too much away, I am very well qualified to comment on this :)
Hope that makes my point clearly, I don't mean to pick a fight, but profit motive aside (which in honesty in financial terms I imagine is precious little motive actually) I think that experience sharing is the best that can possibly be offered on this forum. It is certainly what got me out of a hangout hole.
I do agree with you entirely. To use the term "peer reviewed" is hyperbolic (I apologise for borrowing the term from academia, I am an academic so use it a lot) but you understood what I was getting at.
With respect to MS, I do also agree. With respect, I did grow up around the disease as my grandmother had it, and my mother was actively involved with the MS Society and was good friends with one of its founders. However I am not a doctor of medicine and whilst I do know quite a bit about the disease on a certain level it is not for me to tell someone they have or haven't got it. To my knowledge I have only sought to explain to people who have already seen their doctor and been categorically told they don't have it yet are still worried how the pattern of presentation of the symptoms is far more important than their list. And the only reason I've done this is because (a) it is completely and unambiguously true, and (b) if I didn't understand this I would still be a quivering wreck today. I sought to go into no more detail than itoldyouiwasill's (excellent) old posts, which I believed to be the forum standard. I have also directly quoted and paraphrased quotes from the retired neurologist who used to post here, making it clear when doing so.
However there is a fine line, one that I've probably crossed more than once when it's been patently obvious that some poor soul is suffering in the same way as I was a year ago, completely needlessly. However to my knowledge, and this is important, I have always only sought to explain these patterns after someone has already been given the all-clear for MS, and have urged people to see their doctors otherwise.
But I maintain, I will always try to help people where I feel I can, even in the absence of the requisite training. I will hopefully at some point also put together something more substantial about my experiences. But would it be appropriate for me to seek to charge for this? No. Would it be appropriate for me to come on here trying to sell such a document to those struggling on this forum? No. Would, however, it be appropriate for me to charge for papers I've written on the subject I study and teach at one of the best universities in the world? Yes.
---------- Post added at 21:27 ---------- Previous post was at 21:03 ----------
While having a book on the top of the sales charts like Claire Weeks would be certainly beneficial, Skippy's book doesn't fall into that category nor is it his motivation for writing it. I've gotten to know this man in my time on the boards and that was NOT his motivation for writing it. If it helps others and adds a few bucks in the process, I personally don't have an issue with it and having that tag is not his personal motivation for doing so (IMO).
Positive thoughts
Why doesn't he just upload it here for free then?
Why doesn't he just upload it here for free then?
He did for a period of time.... That's how I got it!
Positive thoughts
He posts a lot of things here from his book and different for free. He's helpful. That's helpful. I didn't buy his book but his posts have been integral for me these last few months.
MyNameIsTerry
01-12-14, 04:29
He did for a period of time.... That's how I got it!
Positive thoughts
The trouble is FMP, that just backs up Serenity's argument for not charging. Personally, I hope that since it was free and now isn't, unless the author needs all the money he can due to financial hard times from anxiety, all profits are donated.
I know across several forums/websites there is some debate about charging in this instance regarding recovered anxiety disorder sufferers. What Serenity has stated about not charging others in the same boat is what is always raised, including by the mods on one of the forums. I have to say, I don't regard the author in the same light as the one under discussion (I don't know Skippy, I don't think I've ever spoken to him but I have to consider him as an author on this matter) on those forums, and it has been discussed on here at great length as well, but I have to mention this because both you & CPE are OK with charging and a lot of other anxiety disorder sufferers across various websites disagree. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion though, but I have to say I wouldn't be charging unless I was struggling financially due to recovery or if I was donating. That is completely up to the author, but he has to be prepared to accept that not everyone will agree, as I'm sure he does.
---------- Post added at 04:05 ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 ----------
He posts a lot of things here from his book and different for free. He's helpful. That's helpful. I didn't buy his book but his posts have been integral for me these last few months.
I don't know the author, I don't think I've ever talked to him on here but I often read his threads for incite and I tend to view him as a health blogger as a recovered anxiety disorder sufferer. There are many out there that do the same, some affiliated, some not. There is even another guy on here who has written a book about anxiety recently which the mods have approved, see this thread http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=159992, http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=160021 & http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=160134 if you are interested.
The only thing I think the author needs to consider is whether he is publishing for free on here and charging for the complete product on Amazon and whether its appropriate. Some authors get some stick for that. Many authors post web resources that come with their books e.g. downloads, but if its the material itself, some consumers may not approve if they find out about it. I haven't read the authors book anyway so I don't know what the different is so I'm open minded on that, although I think I would be wary of the products price tag under these circumstances given its quite short.
---------- Post added at 04:29 ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 ----------
What I do have an issue with though is you adopting such a critical position when you have repeatedly given people 'medical advice' regarding neurological conditions. Making statements of fact which unless I have missed something and you are a qualified neurologist is directly in conflict with the criticisms you are labelling in this thread. Assuming I haven't missed anything then statements like, 'MS doesn't present that way', is at best informed by anecdote or desktop research and at worst founded in nothing.
Doesn't seem any different to me aside from Skippy is talking about experience of having suffered and recovered from something, whereas you are potentially preventing people visiting a clinician on the basis of statements of fact presented on an Internet forum concerning neurological conditions. I know which I have the greater problem with. Perhaps people in glass houses.........
CPE, I think perhaps we are all doing this at times. There are many threads on here across various boards where we are touching on areas that require a trained professional so Nic would need to scrap a lot of the boards if we stopped discussing these things.
However, I think you also need to understand that you can be seen making assumptions that something is anxiety. Only a doctor should be making a distinction between a medical condition and anxiety. I have seen this on occasion where you have made assumptions and not questioned the OP enough to understand that there could be an underlying issue which she later revisited a previous GP for who made a better diagnosis, so I think you are being a little unfair here. Only a GP needed to take that one forward of course, but the OP had experienced a second poorer GP who had made an incomplete diagnosis.
I've seen others in this thread doing similiar.
So, lets all take responsibility for the slips we make on here. I'm sure I have made plenty so feel free to kick my backside if needed! :yesyes:
Serenity1990
01-12-14, 11:47
However, I think you also need to understand that you can be seen making assumptions that something is anxiety.
I think this is very true of many also. For example I have been diagnosed with BFS, which is a type of peripheral nerve Hyperexcitability identifiable on an EMG (so long as symptoms occur when plugged in) which arrives secondary to some form of emotional or chemical stressor, hence why is is very commonly associated with anxiety (this is the twitching seen so often in anxiety).
I have tried to spread the word about this condition, as it is the main thing that makes people believe they have some other and far more serious neurological illness. In fact it came as a massive reassurance for me when this finally showed up on my EMG as it pretty much ruled out the scary stuff, and this was my first step on the road to recovery.
However when I tried to mention this to calm someone down in one post, one or two people, one of whom has participated in this thread, gave a completely contradictory and entirely false reply based on another form of PNH (which they had clearly just read on Wikipedia), then stated it is usually anxiety in the absence of any hyperexcitability. Well yes, it is anxiety, however happily there isn't a twitch we humans are capable of producing that wouldn't show up on a modern EMG, and when they show up on an EMG they show up as hyperexcitability. So here's a fantastic medical test that can tell you in an instant whether your twitching is caused by something benign like anxiety or something more sinister in an instant, according to all three neurologists I've seen, and both professors who carried out the EMG. Yet someone on here with access to Wikipedia who actually looked at the wrong page thinks he knows better.
What's important here is that whilst anxiety does cause a lot of inexplicable and somatic symptoms as we all know, because the process is chemical some of the symptoms it causes are recognisable conditions, which are very real and very treatable. Try telling someone who is having a heart attack due to decades of raised blood pressure that his symptoms are "just anxiety" and he should just ignore them. End of the day it causes real, recognised medical conditions that shouldn't be nullified by someone with no medical training on here.
I think pleasingly we seem to have arrived at a point where basically everyone is saying the same thing in slightly differently worded, very long paragraphs :) Happy days.
Couldn't give a flying **** if my opinions are in the minority tbh mate, they're still my opinions. Psychologists need 6-8 years of intensive learning to qualify to even assess a patient, let alone put together a programme for recovery. Skippy has zero years under his belt yet feels qualified to not only write a book dishing out medical advice (let's not forget mental illness is medical illness), but feels it appropriate to come onto forums populated by desperate, vulnerable people promoting his magic beans.
Now whilst I perfectly understand that his advice on here has helped people, as advice from all of us who contribute to the forum has helped others, I am entirely uncomfortable with someone without any experience or qualifications in the field in question (other than his own short illness) putting themselves on a self-propegated pedestal potentially harming or holding back thousands of people, all in the search of profit.
If you want to contribute on here, great, it'll be massively appreciated by many. But If your only motive is to publicise a book (well more of an overpriced short pamphlet) then I personally would strongly urge the admin to rethink their positions.
You're right Serenity. I'm glad I've managed to help some people on here, but the last thing I want is to mislead anyone that I have any kind of medical training or put myself on a 'self-propagated pedestal'.
As a result I will not be posting on this forum in future. To be honest my old posts contain most of my 'non-medical' advice anyway, so the search function may come in handy for people, or my overpriced short pamphlet which took 4 months of my life to write.
Thank you to everyone who has offered support on this thread and through PMs.
I wish you all the best for the future.
Serenity1990
01-12-14, 13:03
So your attitude is you will come here to promote your book, but not if you are criticised for doing so?
I think that says it all. Very grown up.
Funny how your response chose to ignore bits of what I was saying to try and twist the point being made.
If you want to contribute on here, great, it'll be massively appreciated by many.
As a result I will not be posting on this forum in future.
I find this disappointing. I understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion but what comes to mind is a saying about that.... and due to that, the forum loses...
Positive thoughts
So your attitude is you will come here to promote your book, but not if you are criticised for doing so?
I think that's says it all. Very grown up.
A couple of years ago I had the time & money to be able to while away hours on the internet. Now, I have a busy job and three children to feed and clothe including a baby.
I understand that everyone's circumstances are different. In an ideal world I would love to come on here and try and help people 24/7. I would love to be able to spend 4 months writing a book and give it away for free to anyone who wants it. But my current circumstances do not allow that. And it's not that I am not willing to give up my time unless it's for financial gain - check out all the posts I made before I even wrote the book if you don't believe me. I hope you and everyone else can understand this - it is nothing to do with simply being allowed to promote my book or not. It's all about personal circumstances. Most on here appear through desperation for reassurance - read through the threads and this pattern is pretty clear. The rest of us do it because we have time to do so, and want to help people. But some have the time, like I did a couple of years ago. Now I do not.
I am not prepared to come here with the precious time I have and be insulted and accused of being some kind of charlatan by anyone, not even by an anonymous forum persona. I would rather spend the time trying to earn money for my family or spending quality time with them.
I hope others who have supported me can understand this.
Serenity1990
01-12-14, 13:45
A couple of years ago I had the time & money to be able to while away hours on the internet. Now, I have a busy job and three children to feed and clothe including a baby.
I understand that everyone's circumstances are different. In an ideal world I would love to come on here and try and help people 24/7. I would love to be able to spend 4 months writing a book and give it away for free to anyone who wants it. But my current circumstances do not allow that. And it's not that I am not willing to give up my time unless it's for financial gain - check out all the posts I made before I even wrote the book if you don't believe me. I hope you and everyone else can understand this - it is nothing to do with simply being allowed to promote my book or not. It's all about personal circumstances. Most on here appear through desperation for reassurance - read through the threads and this pattern is pretty clear. The rest of us do it because we have time to do so, and want to help people. But some have the time, like I did a couple of years ago. Now I do not.
I am not prepared to come here with the precious time I have and be insulted and accused of being some kind of charlatan by anyone, not even by an anonymous forum persona. I would rather spend the time trying to earn money for my family or spending quality time with them.
I hope others who have supported me can understand this.
So you have time to post on the forum when it promotes your book, but otherwise you'd rather spend it with the family. Is that the gist?
Nobody's accusing you of being a charlatan, I was questioning the appropriateness of what you were doing. I encourage anyone to post on here to help people who are in the situation we once were. But sufferers will often do anything to get out of their situations, hence why there are thousands of people on the Internet seeking to sell reading material, pills and programs to these individuals as they know that they will simply buy them out of desperation. If you want to help, help. But money shouldn't come into it.
As a result I will not be posting on this forum in future.
I think that is a real shame, but respect your decision. Understandably the posters on this forum are 95% people in the midst of HA and 5% those who have recovered or who are on the way. I think it is so important that in spite of any differences that exist that we encourage the voice of the recovered. Although people may think differently at the time, it isn't the reassurance about one symptom or another that will get people out of a hole, but rather (I believe at least) that for the most part it is hearing about people who have found their way - even though it may involve telling the same story over and over.
Wish you the very best and thank you for all you have done for me.
Just quick two pennyworth frome me, having waded through this thread. It's important to remember that anyone who self-publishes a book, even on the internet, rarely makes any money at all from it. I know a few people who have done books on different subjects, and I think all of them are still out of pocket, either in terms of time, or the cash that they have invested.
So I think the money issue is a bit of a red herring. Whether or not people on here are allowed to self-promote, (books, courses or whatever) is down to the group of people who tirelessly run this site. If anyone on here objects to self-promotion, then it's down to those individuals to complain to the admins about it.
FWIW, I think it's very sad when anyone genuinely tries to help others and gets slagged off for it.
MyNameIsTerry
04-12-14, 03:57
I think pleasingly we seem to have arrived at a point where basically everyone is saying the same thing in slightly differently worded, very long paragraphs :) Happy days.
Then I think you missed out on my response to you because you appear to think only Serenity has done what you claim, yet you don't appear to be willing pick others up on it. Serenity has also justified where he has obtained his information from whereas you have only made an assumption against him and have not even replied to acknowledge your poor assumption. Its a shame really.
---------- Post added at 03:50 ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 ----------
I find this disappointing. I understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion but what comes to mind is a saying about that.... and due to that, the forum loses...
Positive thoughts
It is a disappointment that someone will not continue helping others but really this a public forum and sometimes people are going to clash but that doesn't mean we just leave. I know I've had a few clashes on here but I'm not going to feel that I have to leave such a great resource due to a few crossed words or disagreements.
...and the phrase you are thinking of only matters to those who don't agree with it but that doesn't mean we should be censored if we don't comply with popular feeling.
---------- Post added at 03:54 ---------- Previous post was at 03:50 ----------
Just quick two pennyworth frome me, having waded through this thread. It's important to remember that anyone who self-publishes a book, even on the internet, rarely makes any money at all from it. I know a few people who have done books on different subjects, and I think all of them are still out of pocket, either in terms of time, or the cash that they have invested.
So I think the money issue is a bit of a red herring.
Yes, I agree but for me the cost is about the cost to one consumer, not the overall revenue. Whether the author keeps the money because they need it, keeps it because they want to, donate it or don't charge it at all, is really up to them and we as consumers can decide to make the purchase or not. I really believe that the author should look at the cost to one consumer though because its quite expensive given much larger books by established authors can be purchased for similiar sums (but what impact do Amazon have on that cost with authors they publish?). A more reasonable cost could see him sell more copies and get his work out there otherwise the many will skip over it on cost alone which could be a shame.
---------- Post added at 03:57 ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 ----------
A couple of years ago I had the time & money to be able to while away hours on the internet. Now, I have a busy job and three children to feed and clothe including a baby.
I understand that everyone's circumstances are different. In an ideal world I would love to come on here and try and help people 24/7. I would love to be able to spend 4 months writing a book and give it away for free to anyone who wants it. But my current circumstances do not allow that. And it's not that I am not willing to give up my time unless it's for financial gain - check out all the posts I made before I even wrote the book if you don't believe me. I hope you and everyone else can understand this - it is nothing to do with simply being allowed to promote my book or not. It's all about personal circumstances. Most on here appear through desperation for reassurance - read through the threads and this pattern is pretty clear. The rest of us do it because we have time to do so, and want to help people. But some have the time, like I did a couple of years ago. Now I do not.
I am not prepared to come here with the precious time I have and be insulted and accused of being some kind of charlatan by anyone, not even by an anonymous forum persona. I would rather spend the time trying to earn money for my family or spending quality time with them.
I hope others who have supported me can understand this.
Skippy,
Please don't feel you need to leave on anyone's account, we all have disagreements on public forums...and to be honest, this place is mega tame compared to consumer & TV forums where things can get very hostile. In publishing a book, you will get criticism, its just part of it but the best thing to do is just keep going and helping others if you want to. People have the consumer right to discuss cost & validity and you may not always like what you hear/read but surely your willingness to help others by far overrides that?
I'm late to the party and probably this post is irrelevant considering the OP's intention to leave, but I wanted to weigh in because it's an important topic.
I have a Masters Degree in Psychology and before retirement was active in therapeutic service. I was, and am, a big proponent of self-help. Much of the clinical work I oversaw was developing community support for at-risk people, which included peer-to-peer support and group work. There is an "however", and it's the following.
1) Self-help experts, including authors, have a tendency to blur the line between opinion and expertise. They tend to offer "solutions' rather than suggestions. They tend to apply the same change principles to others that worked for them.
2) Authorship itself connotes a certain subject-matter expertise that doesn't exist. This can unduly influence vulnerable people.
Having said this, the best gate-keeper is ourselves. As long as we rein in those of us that unwittingly get too big for our britches we'll probably survive a few ill-advised "solutions" or two.
MNIT - I didn't miss out on your post to be honest and I have little interest in picking anyone up on anything. I find the forensic analysis of posts, quoting small sentences and challenging them quite tiresome and don't have the time or energy to spend time trying to get my wording totally neutral. My point to Serenity was quite a simple one of people in glass houses. The discussion was getting quite personal. It wasn't designed to be a general point and in honesty was designed to suggest that perhaps people shouldn't be so ready to be self righteous and critical when there are bones of contention in what many people say.
I used to care when people would say either 'it's just anxiety don't worry about it' or 'I have had exactly that thing don't worry about it' or 'this disease doesn't look like that it looks like this'. All from an amateur and uninformed position and all with the potential of preventing someone seeking medical advice when not even a medical professional would be likely to provide that judgement. I try to be very cautious in my posts not to do those things, but hey I was in a very different place a year ago so who knows and I don't intend to analyse everything. Additionally I am also cautious to caveat any comments I make about recovery from anxiety with 'it is just what worked for me'. So in answer to your point, I used to very actively pick people up on this issue as I think it is a dangerous one, but quickly realised the futility and the fact that it just too points of purpose - case in point here. So I choose now to respond only to those threads that I hope I can add to positively as one of the few people here who hang around when they feel better.
I learned early in that picking those things up result only in vitriol and disagreement and tended to detract from the purpose of the forum. I feel very fortunate to have found a way to move on from the internalise hell that I experienced last year. Even now I am cautious about suggesting that I have recovered. But hopefully by being here it shows people that there can be a better place and applies some balance to discussion. Most people when they feel better, understandably don't hand around, they move on which creates potential for peer support to become negative counselling. I try and pop in every day to see whether there is anything I can contribute meaningfully to. But I do have a busy life, hectic job, busy family life etc so if it gets to the point where that doesn't seem to be useful at all I will stop.
My main issue with this thread was more the personal element to it - I am long since tired of questioning whether the advice people give in relation to medical conditions is valid or not.
I hope that makes sense - it may not as I am on a freezing station platform waiting for the train to London on my iPhone.
---------- Post added at 07:24 ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 ----------
I'm late to the party and probably this post is irrelevant considering the OP's intention to leave, but I wanted to weigh in because it's an important topic.
I have a Masters Degree in Psychology and before retirement was active in therapeutic service. I was, and am, a big proponent of self-help. Much of the clinical work I oversaw was developing community support for at-risk people, which included peer-to-peer support and group work. There is an "however", and it's the following.
1) Self-help experts, including authors, have a tendency to blur the line between opinion and expertise. They tend to offer "solutions' rather than suggestions. They tend to apply the same change principles to others that worked for them.
2) Authorship itself connotes a certain subject-matter expertise that doesn't exist. This can unduly influence vulnerable people.
Having said this, the best gate-keeper is ourselves. As long as we rein in those of us that unwittingly get too big for our britches we'll probably survive a few ill-advised "solutions" or two.
Interesting parallels in our careers Canbud - I work for the NHS specialising in policy and commissions around self management and self management support.
MyNameIsTerry
04-12-14, 07:42
MNIT - I didn't miss out on your post to be honest and I have little interest in picking anyone up on anything. I find the forensic analysis of posts, quoting small sentences and challenging them quite tiresome and don't have the time or energy to spend time trying to get my wording totally neutral. My point to Serenity was quite a simple one of people in glass houses. The discussion was getting quite personal. It wasn't designed to be a general point and in honesty was designed to suggest that perhaps people shouldn't be so ready to be self righteous and critical when there are bones of contention in what many people say.
I used to care when people would say either 'it's just anxiety don't worry about it' or 'I have had exactly that thing don't worry about it' or 'this disease doesn't look like that it looks like this'. All from an amateur and uninformed position and all with the potential of preventing someone seeking medical advice when not even a medical professional would be likely to provide that judgement. I try to be very cautious in my posts not to do those things, but hey I was in a very different place a year ago so who knows and I don't intend to analyse everything. Additionally I am also cautious to caveat any comments I make about recovery from anxiety with 'it is just what worked for me'. So in answer to your point, I used to very actively pick people up on this issue as I think it is a dangerous one, but quickly realised the futility and the fact that it just too points of purpose - case in point here. So I choose now to respond only to those threads that I hope I can add to positively as one of the few people here who hang around when they feel better.
I learned early in that picking those things up result only in vitriol and disagreement and tended to detract from the purpose of the forum. I feel very fortunate to have found a way to move on from the internalise hell that I experienced last year. Even now I am cautious about suggesting that I have recovered. But hopefully by being here it shows people that there can be a better place and applies some balance to discussion. Most people when they feel better, understandably don't hand around, they move on which creates potential for peer support to become negative counselling. I try and pop in every day to see whether there is anything I can contribute meaningfully to. But I do have a busy life, hectic job, busy family life etc so if it gets to the point where that doesn't seem to be useful at all I will stop.
My main issue with this thread was more the personal element to it - I am long since tired of questioning whether the advice people give in relation to medical conditions is valid or not.
I hope that makes sense - it may not as I am on a freezing station platform waiting for the train to London on my iPhone.
---------- Post added at 07:24 ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 ----------
Interesting parallels in our careers Canbud - I work for the NHS specialising in policy and commissions around self management and self management support.
CPE, I'm not in anyway questioning your commitment to others on here so I'll leave the majority of the above alone as it was not needed anyway. It seems somewhat loaded anyway and I'm not going to be drawn into assumptions.
The point was the when it comes to 'glass houses' there are others on here that you did not raise a point against, only Serenity which is unfair as there are others in this thread who have done exactly the same by saying that it cannot be X and must be anxiety in the absense of any initial examination by a GP so I would expect that such people would also join Serenity in that category however they appeared to have been missed out in favour of trying to prove an issue against Serenity. Thats a double standard.
I have seen you make assumptions about anxiety and I'm sure I've done the same (feel free anyone to correct me, I'm learning loads off this site). I am willing to accept that I will have stepped over the mark at some point, Serenity has said the same. No one is perfect on here and the mods can deal with anyone stepping over the mark.
So I think we all need to be fair and not use the 'glass houses' argument as we are all guilty of it at some point.
But it wasn't a general point MNIT it was a point aimed at Serenity who at the time was mounting a fairly public and quite personal set of assumptions about another poster. It wasn't the fact that posters respond in a general way that I was picking up on it was more that we shouldn't adopt quite such a self righteous position when we are all guilty of overstepping the mark. No double standard. In fact you have been party to lengthy threads where I have questioned such approaches from others and been shouted down as a result.
Also FWIW nothing loaded in what I say. What you read is what you get I am afraid.
MyNameIsTerry
04-12-14, 08:18
Sorry, no I don't believe I have CPE. The only possibles were when I joined and posted a view that differed to yours, and yes you did get some backlash off some people, and some of us did to (I recall a member who rarely posts popping up to make a general accusation which included me) and the threads were deleted. From what I recall they were related to why the forum has changed to a symptom based, reassurance seeking one. I can't recall much other than that I'm afraid so perhaps you mean these ones?
I don't question the fact you raise this issue, I've seen you raise it on many threads. Not the lengthy ones you point out, but on other shorter ones and probably a few longer ones that I haven't commented in.
I think you miss the point though. It wasn't that posters respond in a general way, it was that Serenity was being singled out when there are clearly others in this thread (not skippy) who are guilty of the same so you cannot ignore that fact on the basis that Serenity was questioning Skippy's ability to do so. I don't disagree that we shouldn't adopt a self righteous position but I seem to recall Serenity explaining where his advice came from and that needs to be acknowledged.
I think Skippy is also capable of having that discussion with Serenity anyway and I don't see why people need to wade in unless a poster is struggling due to their anxiety and needs support. Serenity raised questions over Skippy's integrity, and I think thats best left between them. I agree, the personal element is an issue, but if 2 people are having an issue, I don't see much point intervening when if it only inflames the situation, intervening to calm it down or reason it out with both parties is more acceptable. I realise there are some strong friendships on here and people often feel the need to intevene to support their friends but those same people have to accept that others may then be tempted to voice their opinions when they start seeing that one person may be experiencing this to show that popular opinion may not be exactly how it is being shown in a thread.
Just to be clear wasn't suggesting that you shouted down just that you were around at the time. FWIW I find your posts incredibly well thought through, considered and insightful. Think we may be talking at cross purposes.
I think we both think one another are missing the point. Probably time to draw a line under that and agree to disagree?
MyNameIsTerry
04-12-14, 08:53
No, thats fine, I wasn't suggesting that was you, it was another member who waded in and disappeared again. That wasn't an issue against you, I was still discussing points with you when that happened and I don't know what happened after anyway.
Yes, I agree. I don't think its productive, we've got enough to get on with in recovering!
Thanks thats very much appreciated from you. I make a point of reading your threads/posts too as I like to learn about other anxiety disorders, it tends to help me understand my own (OCD is very close to HA with the obsessional issues) and I find them very insightful into your progress which is extremely helpful to all the new people struggling not knowing what is going on and those relapsing who are losing hope.
Lets move forward on a positive note, so have a nice day at work (do they exist? :winks::D)
And you MNIT - I think they do. I love my job - hard work but do feel like it makes a difference most I the time. Just rolling into Kings X having left Yorkshire at a silly time. Have a great day!
Serenity1990
04-12-14, 11:41
I think Skippy is also capable of having that discussion with Serenity anyway and I don't see why people need to wade in unless a poster is struggling due to their anxiety and needs support. Serenity raised questions over Skippy's integrity, and I think thats best left between them. I agree, the personal element is an issue, but if 2 people are having an issue, I don't see much point intervening when if it only inflames the situation, intervening to calm it down or reason it out with both parties is more acceptable. I realise there are some strong friendships on here and people often feel the need to intevene to support their friends but those same people have to accept that others may then be tempted to voice their opinions when they start seeing that one person may be experiencing this to show that popular opinion may not be exactly how it is being shown in a thread.
I just think we have to be very careful with respect to how advice is given. For example, I once lived with someone who as it turned out had a very serious mental illness. On the face of things she seemed to have a little post-traumatic stress after something distressing happened to her (or something of that nature), which I tried to help her through as a friend but as a layman. As it turned out, however, she was far more serious issues than were originally apparent and the distressing event(s) were entirely made up, and in fact my 'help' made her far worse.
The point is a qualified psychologist would have quickly picked up on the underlying issue however I simply didn't have the intellectual tools to do this. Similarly psychologists writing self-help books for anxiety sufferers would have the knowledge to avoid giving out advice that might help some but might make others far worse. As an example some might say if symptoms come and go or disappear with anxiety medication they're probably anxiety symptoms, which might help to reassure some; however somebody who has a chronic tension headache originating in neck that doesn't come and go might then believe his symptoms are therefore not related to anxiety and that he has a brain tumour. Which would only make his health anxiety worse.
What I think is great about these forums is that sympathetic but untrained people can help each other by sharing experience and knowledge, because we check each other and if there's a misinterpretation such as in my example above the poster can ask the question and clarification can be sought. Similarly this is also why I'm not always comfortable with people helping each other via PM.
So I would have no issue at all if the "book" in question existed in a thread, FOC. That way people could use the advice and experiences shared by Skippy and others could chip into the conversation as and when. However I think it very dangerous that an untrained individual should publish such a thing as whilst it might help 99% of the readership to some extent, it may have the potential to be very harmful to the 1%. I see mental illness in a similar light as physiological ones, and I see talking therapies (in which I would broadly include books) as treatments in the same way as a drug or physio is a treatment. I think it's as unwise for such treatments to be provided by untrained individuals in an unsupervised manner as allowing an untrained individual to manufacture cancer drugs.
In addition to this, my issue around charging is simple. It's not very long at all so I just don't buy the whole "took months to write" stuff. I don't write an awful lot of considered prose for work, and even I average around 120 A4 pages a week. So this idea that sixty book pages (which is, what, thirty A4 sides?) takes months on end to write I find a little beyond the pale. Certainly if written on a full-time basis. But as an anxiety sufferer when I was first trawling the internet I found hundreds upon hundreds of people trying to sell books, written CBT courses, drugs and whatever else. I was desperate enough to try anything, and I probably gave a lot of con-men a lot of my hard-earned. I would have hoped NMP members who have been through it and lived it wouldn't try to capitalise similarly.
With respect to personal issues around Skippy, the reason for the bluntness of my original reply is I have found him to be very rude and dismissive in the past. I think his heart probably is in the right place, however he makes enemies of anyone who dares to criticise him and frankly I find his attitude of "well if I can't publicise my book here I don't have time to post" very telling.
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