View Full Version : The Dangers of Trying to Think Positive
Hey Guys,
So many people tell you to be positive, think positive. As if overcoming anxiety and depression were so easy that all we have to do is change our minds about things.
The problem is that people who say such advice do not understand anxiety or depression. They do not understand how mentally and emotionally exhausted we are.
And so the more we may try to think positive the more we unwittingly fight how we feel. And the more we fight the more this results in more exhaustion. And so the more intrusive anxious thoughts become.
If you try to think positively the problem is that you donīt really believe it. So you are just trying to force yourself to believe something.
Instead focus on building confidence from things you have actually done. Focus on coping with yourself, your symptoms, your feelings and on doing things despite how you feel.
Go into situations as willingly as you can, moving forward gently, not fighting how you feel, not trying to change how you feel. The situations you fear are never as bad as your tired anxious mind makes you think.
The trick is in doing things despite how you feel and proving your anxiety and panic wrong. And when you do so you have something better than forced positive thinking. You have something that you have actually done. It is set in concrete.
It is moments like these which we must build on. They actually happened. And so we can do them again. So instead of think positively trying to persuade yourself something. Just remember past successes where you coped with yourself and not the situation and came through it.
Maybe you felt a little shaky or nervous, but you still came through it to the other side! Remember and congratulate yourself about your past successes often. And then you will start to change!
There is no fix quick to overcoming anxiety. Understand about your nervous system, mental and emtional fatigue. The role of adrenaline and tension, and the strange symptoms they bring. Learn how to stop mental agitation and settle your mind, learn how to stay in the moment, learn how to let things be and stop working yourself into a state.
I know itīs not easy. I have felt the despair, the hopelessness, the frustration. But I have came so far, that I would not write such things if I did not believe them. For years I was plagued by agoraphobia, I wold shake when outside, my legs would shake and go weak. I was on antidepressants at the age of 15, and would take seroxat with my breakfast before going to school.
But I now feel like I have found the cure. Sure different things work for different people but whatever things help you, you must understand what is happening to your mind and body. Namely the role of a sensitized nervous system, and mental and emotional fatigue and how to deal with it all.
And when you start making progress you wonīt have to speak positively to yourself, it will come naturally to you. Because you have been there and done that! Youīll just know that you can do things, and wonīt have to convince yourself at all.
Keep moving forward!
Jon
Jon I see what you are saying and believe me I have really suffered with anxiety to the point that I could not leave my bedroom, crying, shaking all day. I tell people to be positive and most therapists do. With anxiety you have so many negative thoughts that you ruminate over all the time. The only way to change is to change each negative thought to a positive one. If you have had a really bad day then don't dwell on the negative things, praise yourself for the positive.
I have been anxiety free for over a year but having a little 'blip' at the moment. I could be thinking of all the negatives but I have managed to get out of bed and have a shower so that is a positive and one that will help me to recover.
Thinking positive doesn't mean you don't believe it, it means you are taking steps to change your thought processes so that you can overcome the anxious thoughts.
I am pleased you have found a way that works for you though and wish you well with your recovery. :hugs:
---------- Post added at 11:32 ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 ----------
Rereading your post I do see what you mean...you are talking about thinking positive the same way I am I think? To praise yourself for the positives you have done?
Hi Annie,
from what I believe from reading Dr Weekes ect is that anxious thoughts are due to a tired fatigued mind. Because our minds are so tired we cant get our thinking straight, and so they seem to stick.
In my opinion I firmly believe that the problem isnt in changing the anxious thought into a positive one it is in not being afraid of the thought anymore.
Because it is fear that sustains the thought in the first pace, that keeps it coming back. If we didnt care whether we thought the anxious thought or not, if we were aloof or nonchalant about it then our subconscious would see that we dont care about it, and wouldnīt regard it as important. So we would think it less often until eventually it melted away.
If you think about it anxious thoughts dont really mean anything, they are just words in our heads put together to make sentences. They mean absolutely nothing. The problem is that we are being fooled by them. We put our trust in them, we believe them. And also when we think them our hearts may palpitate, we get tense, shallow breath etc, so they scare us.
Personally I think that in a tired mind it is best to deal with them by letting them be there, not dwelling on them, trying to view them as being silly thughts that mean nothing, and so lose your fear of them.
I think that trying to change them into positive thoughts gives them unnecessary importance. Instead I think itīs best to think to yourself, Ļah itīs just another silly thought, do whatever you want, I donīt believe a word you say!!Ļ And then focus on taking deep breaths into your stomach, solar plexus, and chest, exhaling slowly and letting go of the tight hold you have on yourself and practise letting the thought be there, but being indifferent to it. As if you were practising Zen meditation.
This is working for me and I have a lot more mental clarity. And I am a lot more confident. And I find that I donīt need to try and be positive, because I just feel positive!
Just my two cents!
Jon :)
I think I know what you mean, if it is just the anxiety or fear you are feeling then go along with it and accept it but I am thinking more like thoughts of I'm a failure, I haven't done anything worthwhile today...Yes I have stop thinking about what I have not achieved and dwell on what I have. What if this will happen...what if it won't? Dwell on the positives and not the negatives. Just what I was taught in therapy and it has worked for me and yes it does come naturally after a while.
Yea, I get you!
Youīre not talking about compulsive anxous thoughts that you canīt seem to get rid of. But other more under the radar thoughts!
Cheers,
Jon
No the compulsive anxious thoughts need working on differently. I am talking about when people just seem to see everything as a negative. They get to the shops and panic and have to rush home (I have done that many times) You then see yourself as failing and all the negatives come rushing in but hey you made it to the shops...what a huge achievement...changing to a positive outcome :) It makes me more likely to attempt it again and maybe get a few more items in my basket the next time :)
Hey Annie,
Yes, I totally agree!!
Look at what you achieve despite how you feel!
Best,
Jon
Catherine S
28-11-14, 00:36
After almost 40 years of living with anxiety and panic..largely through phobias..I am accepting. I have long accepted that this is the person I am, therefore I no longer fight against it to be the person i'm 'supposed' to be...whatever that means. I am me together with my anxiety...this is who I am so why should I fight it? I spent so many years and various meds that didn't work trying to, so now I just accept that this is me. If I end up in a situation that triggers a panic attack..so what? Its a panic attack and I wait for it to subside which it always does, because its a panic attack..nothing more nothing less and they haven't killed me yet after all. I still become uncomfortable if my heart starts jumping around but only because hearts are not really supposed to and even after all these years of knowing there isn't anything wrong with my heart, that it just likes to remind me that its there from time to time by doing somersaults, it still has the power to make me think there just might be something wrong, but for the most part I think positively. But its taken some years to get to that.
ISB x
i feel its best not to think anything ,that works for me !
I very much agree with you, jon. "Positive thinking" may work for some but for others it just feeds the anxiety cycle and trivialises what is a very complex condition.
Pineapplepie
28-11-14, 13:43
My hubby tells me I am a negative person.
If he gives me three compliments and a slight criticism, I'll focus all my thoughts onto the bad thing.
I worry endlessly. It's hard to be positive when I fixate on the worse case scenario over everything. I make contingency plans for contingency plans :/
If it was as simple as flicking a switch, I would embrace a positive outlook.
But I'm just not that kind of person.
Maybe I need to be taught how.
cbt did helped me a lot with negative thoughts,I now notice when I start negative thinking,start catastrophizing and can turn the thoughts around or stop them in their tracks
Hi Pulisa, IStillBelieve, Mr Andy, and Pineapplepie,
thanks for your replies!
I want to answer to you all individually!
PULISA, I understand what you mean when you say itīs a complex condition. It is generally not understood by the medial profession. The fact the give medication is proof of this. They donīt understand it so they hope a pill will help. Anxiety is something that we feel in our minds and our bodies.
The process of fear being felt in the brain and then causing physiological changes in the body, such as palpitations, tension, which alarms us causing us to feel more fear and so repeat the cycle is simple, but eliminating the fear aspect takes time and patience and practise accepting.
But first a good understaing of the role of a tired nervous system, adrenaline, tension, mental and emotional fatigue and how to stop fighting it and let your mind settle is needed. Then building your confidence so anxiety and panic lose their hold on your life can take place.
ISTILLBELIEVE, what you say is so very true. I totally agree with you. You see that what is happening to you is a physiological thing, and that it is of no danger. The only thing I would like to add, if I may, would be for you to build your confidence.
You see anxiety attacks etc through the right way by not fighting them, but I recommend you record such moments. This will ingrain the fact that they mean nothing, and make the fear die down faster. You have had many moments where you have seen fear through the right way, but if you dont record these moments in a diary and then read over them to remember them it is like you are starting off from square one each time you have an attack.
If you record the times you see the moment through and do things despite how you feel then, and frequently remember them, then you will know deep down inside that the symptoms, the tension, the papitations etc mean nothing. So you wont even have to practice accepting anymore you just wont care about the anxiety at all.The symptoms will come and pass and you wont flicker an eye lid.
MRANDY, I totally agree with you. Once we learn to put our mind into neutral, somewhat like a zen master, and be indifferent to the anxiety, then we lessen the flow of adrenaline.
Finding that mental place of neutrality, where youre inbetween thoughts so to speak, is what switches of the fear response in the brain. Then the more we practise doing this the easier it become, and before we know it we are having a full-blown panic attack but we doīt care. We have reached what Dr Weekes called the eye of the storm. The symptoms rage but we are not affected!
PINEAPPLEPIE, I understand what you mean. I used to worry endlessly too, anxious thoughts over and over. What have learned to to let the anxious thoughts come into my head, but not to dwell on them, not to try and solve them, not to get involved with them. Its like the thought comes and I jst think, Ļoh well its another stupid anxious thought, it can stay as long as it wants!ĻAnd I have a little laugh at it.
I only think it because my mind is tired, both mentally and emotionally. I know that I am stronger than a silly little thought which has no proof. I dont even give it the respect of trying to figure it out. It then comes less and less often till it just disappears!
I suggest you let the thought be in your head, do nothing about it, but instead concentrate on dealing with yourself, deep breaths and that fill your stomach and rib cage, hold it a few moments, and then exhale slowly and try to let go, just let go!
I wish you guys all the best!
Jon
My daughter is on the autistic spectrum and also suffers from extreme anxiety and OCD (dual diagnosis by Maudsley Hospital). Can you imagine how trapped she feels when she can't process how to go about ignoring anxiety symptoms and working through all the frightening thoughts?
You are so right in all this advice, Jon. It's so hard to put it into practice though, especially for an autistic person, but we are going to get there slowly but surely despite all the inevitable blips along the way.
It's hard to be positive if things in life get you down and you feel like you are stuck in a job you can't get out of which is making your miserable
MyNameIsTerry
30-11-14, 04:50
I agree with MrAndy.
I don't believe in the power of positive thinking much anyway. Its suited towards career goals and achieving goals but its irrelevent in complex mental health issues. When therapists talk about positive thinking they tend to be discussing how to recognise & change the negative thought patterns seen in Cognitive Distortions or Schema Bias.
I think CBT is ok, but not for complex issues. I only helped me a little but it just didn't have enough power or direction to deal with all my issues. My therapist got me started with Mindfulness and I found this better than CBT. When performing CBT exercises to challenge, accept or change thoughts you are often left with your conscious mind in the way saying "oh yeah, like I believe that!" and it can be hard to change the cognitive distortions whereas Mindfulness takes the approach of not judging thoughts at all and this means you don't have to put work in to fight against them, you just let them go. This is similiar to some of the teachings of Dr Weekes, but it goes back a long way before her, but its 2 separate avenues that have opened people up to recovery and share similiarities which I see as a good indicator to their ability to help.
Its proven neuroscience that the subconscious associates neurons over time (Long Term Potentiation, possibly?) and we all know that the more we do all this, the more intense it gets. This seems a laymans way of proving this as well. We all know that recover takes time and we see benefits bit by bit and that micro goals are better than larger goals. This all works with the neuroplasticity angle of how we learn to be anxious. Its just much harder to learn to become non anxious than become anxious.
Not fighting thoughts has always been better than fighting against them. Just retrain them by underming it e.g. be Mindful or 'float'.
I also agree with looking at underlying issues. Anxiety disorders can be born out of personal qualities that we are lacking in and we all know that anxiety disorders kick them confidence out of us. They also have a 'domino' effect e.g. you start to lose your confidence and your self worth & self esteem tumble with it.
I don't think CBT does much here and this could be why it can fail. You need something to alter your Schemas (beliefs), build confidence, build self worth and self esteem, etc. Unless you do these, I firmly believe that recover is limited and potentially leaves you open to future relapse as these personal qualities are undermined again in the future.
I also believe recover is holistic. Therpay alone doesn't work when there are physical factors in play. Therapy might help reduce the anxiety, but why settle for reduced when you can be free of it by making adjustments? Just look at Shakey's success with gluten. Try magnesium, probiotics, FODMAP's, Candida elimination, etc...if it works, thats all that matters.
I agree with Annie.
There is a big difference between someone who has no experience of mental health problems patronising, trivialising, or just plain not understanding a person with anxiety/depression, etc. with the words 'think positive', and someone who has suffered the same, and is using those words in a totally different context to support, encourage and help someone to overcome the overwhelming NEGATIVE voice in their head that accompanies mental health problems.
I advise most other fellow sufferers of GAD and panic attacks (especially) to 'think positively' during an attack or a highly anxious period. Of course it can be viewed as not helpful, but then in the height of an attack, we do feel that NOTHING is very helpful, as it leaves us feeling powerless, but the point is that anxiety is fed by negative thoughts - I am going mad, I am going to faint, I am dying, I can't feel better, I am losing touch with reality', etc, etc.
I would never dream of saying anything to a fellow sufferer that I had not found helpful personally, and I have found that reiterating positive affirmations inside my head DO HELP GREATLY during an attack.
The irony in this situation is that anxiety - and the pessimism it breeds - tells us that being told to 'think positive' is not helpful, but then that way of thinking in itself is the exact reason why we need to do it.
It may sound facile to say that to someone, and leave them with the thought that it is 'easier said than done' but no, it is NOT easy, and it takes a lot of practice, mental strength and bloody mindedness, but it most definitely does help and can work.
I still struggle with it myself, and I have had anxiety for over 10 years now, but as the years have gone on, thinking positively has definitely become a lot easier to do during the awful times.
The irony in this situation is that anxiety - and the pessimism it breeds - tells us that being told to 'think positive' is not helpful, but then that way of thinking in itself is the exact reason why we need to do it.
It may sound facile to say that to someone, and leave them with the thought that it is 'easier said than done' but no, it is NOT easy, and it takes a lot of practice, mental strength and bloody mindedness, but it most definitely does help and can work.
I still struggle with it myself, and I have had anxiety for over 10 years now, but as the years have gone on, thinking positively has definitely become a lot easier to do during the awful times.
I always end my posts saying "Positive thoughts" for a reason. I have some anxiety in my life and have dealt with depression. I agree, just saying "think positive" in and of itself is not an ideal solution nor is it helpful when someone is in the midst of dealing with a depressive episode or in an anxiety spiral but as Debs71 is saying, it's really what's needed to pull yourself out of the abyss.
When I find myself dwelling on the negatives in my life, I use some of the CBT techniques I learned from the free course offered here. For me, it helps a lot. It's not easy and it takes effort but anything worth having..... right?
It truly is a learned behavior to think positively and I agree with Terry in the power of positive thinking is career/goal oriented but a the same time those techniques can be applied for GAD, HA, Panic etc. I know because I personally use them.
When I set goals for myself I use visual triggers to reinforce them. For example, I set a goal to perform as an opening act at a venue called the Birchmere in Alexandria, VA. It's a venue were well known artists/bands perform from big names to some not so big but well known. I have a wallpaper on my computer that constantly reminds me of that goal as well as scheduled rehearsals etc. (see Cpe's thread on Getting a Plan) (http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=159331). As silly as it sounds, you can use similar techniques for keeping a positive mindset concerning your mental health. When I was going through treatment, I put signs up on the bathroom mirror, refrigerator etc. to remind me of the three big things to getting through it..."Nutrition, Hydration, Pain Management". It helped to keep me focused when I was dealing with all the nasty things that treatment was.
Yes, it's difficult and yes, for some it requires more intensive work and therapy, but I believe with all my heart it can be done. Wanting it and working toward it is the key. And even if you don't reach the goal, you're steps ahead of where you were.
Positive Thoughts
This is very interesting http://www.feelguide.com/2014/11/19/harvard-unveils-mri-study-proving-meditation-literally-rebuilds-the-brains-gray-matter-in-8-weeks/
MyNameIsTerry
01-12-14, 07:11
This is very interesting http://www.feelguide.com/2014/11/19/harvard-unveils-mri-study-proving-meditation-literally-rebuilds-the-brains-gray-matter-in-8-weeks/
Thats a very interesting study MrAndy. I have read that MR has been used to show how the left side (emotional) has been shown being fired whilst meditating but not anything that showed permanent changes, although there are practitioners who have stated that it could/would.
The changes seen to the hippocampus which plays a role in anxiety is great as are those seen in the amygdala which is known as the fear centre. The amygdala is not just about fear though but it tends to be accessed on its fear-based side more often by anxiety disorder sufferers. This study really does prove that we can create our own neuroplasticity to alter our brains in a positive way from a simple set of exercises.
Its also great to see that the study comes from Jon Kabat-Zinn's MBSR and the study has also been conducted by the centre he developed it for/at. We have MBCT in the UK co created by professor Mark Williams and in his book he explains that it is a result of the earlier creation of MBSR and it seems to follow the same 8 week course length so perhaps these results will have an impact in being transferrable to MBCT?
I've also noticed 2 members on here recently stating they have been referred for Mindfulness courses by their GP which shows that things are really changing towards this type of treatment. Personally, I would preferred this to CBT as it would encourage more active participation in exercises as opposed to discussion of them.
Will you be creating a thread for this on the therapy board for greater discussion?
Will you be creating a thread for this on the therapy board for greater discussion?
no I will let you do that :) A lot of companies are bringing in mindfullness teachers now so it shows it works and becoming more popular
I see what you're saying, but I find that thinking positive, immersing myself in hobbies and caring for animals, along with my word of faith beliefs have really helped me.
I used to be SO much worse, I'm actually cured of the majority of issues due to those things. I used to be on meds, but now I only take a half of a xanax as needed.
Each person is different, some use positive thinking, some use medication, some use other means. Not a single coping method is better than the next, we all have our own methods and that's perfectly okay. :)
Hi,
When I say thinking positive I mean in respect to the anxious thoughts that we have. If for example we think ĻI canīt go outside my houseĻ or face some other anxious situation. But try and think positive by saying ĻI can go outside my house! I can do anything!Ļ etc Then unless this thought has been build on a foundation of previous success where we actually have done these things before despite feeling anxious then we are just trying to convince ourselves of something that we donīt really believe.
And this can be exhausting. We just end up mentally debating with ourselves, one voice is saying we canīt do it, but another is trying to think positive telling us that we can, in a vain attempt that we can believe it.
I think that all thoughts should be based on fact, on things that have some evidence, then we donīt have to convince ourselves of anything, instead we are just reminding ourselves!
So instead of saying to ourselves ĻI can do it!Ļ I think it is best to remember previous times when we actually have done it, and then tell ourselves that we can do it!
It is very hard to persuade ourselves of thoughts that we donīt believe. But if there is some truth to the thought then I think it is ok, as itīs more plausable to believe!
For example another thing I think is good is making a list of our strengths, our past achievements, and things we are grateful for. And then to read over these things daily. This naturally makes you feel good about yourself.
I think it depends on what you call Ļpositive thinkingĻ! Is it reminding yourself of the good things about you, the things you have achieved in your life which give inspiration for more future successes, or it it trying to convince yourself of something unrealistic.
I think that if you focus on coping with yourself, your symptoms, the feelings, the tension and whatever it is youre going though, and then record and remember such instances that you will then naturally become a more positive person. You will ingrain deep within yourself that you can do things despite how you feel, and so you wonīt have to think it, you will know it!
And instead of being at the mercy of your anxiety, you will see it for what it actually is, a harmless feeling that has never, and will never hurt you!
Jon
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