View Full Version : I think you know
I know about the fear of a serious illness. I was scared when I had my heart attacks and cancer. I was treated and fought hard to regain my life. I have to fight and work hard every day to do so. I also know about depression and GAD (I call my particular issue "scanxiety"). Ironically as anxiety causes physical symptoms and issues, a serious physical illness causes psychological issues. I fought hard to regain my life from them also and still fight every day and work hard to keep them from controlling my thoughts. You should feel the same way about your illness. I see many threads where the OP longs for the time when they didn't worry about their health. My question and challenge to you is why wouldn't you treat your anxiety? It's threatening your life in the same way the disease you fear would do! There is treatment available. You can heal! I say "heal" because, just like a serious physical illness, a serious mental illness changes you. You're not the same as you were before but healing brings with it strength and resolve and an appreciation for life you've not had before.
I read a reply to a post that I've said many times in my replies. Simply put, the fact that you're posting about symptoms and fears on an anxiety forum shows that deep down you recognize you have a mental illness as opposed to a physical illness. Yes, this mental illness causes real physical symptoms and the psychological aspect of anxiety and HA along with the OCD tendencies cause a distortion of reality and thus the meltdowns, panic and a downward mental spiral.
But deep down, it's my opinion you know you don't have a brain tumor, cancer or any other serious physical illness. Many have had extensive testing proving this fact. Of the tens of thousands of posts and threads, very, very, VERY rarely is there actually something physically wrong. That cold you have isn't cancer, that freckle isn't melanoma, that headache isn't a brain tumor, that twitch isn't ALS etc. etc. etc. You can say whatever you want and rationalize your thoughts in the way you see fit to support your fears but look at where you're posting them!
Think about this when you're about to post a thread about your disease du jour. The very fact you're posting in this forum should be proof that you're not suffering from it. I'm not saying that people with anxiety and HA don't get sick, they do. I am saying that you do have an illness. It's real and causes real physical symptoms that are scary and can mimic physical illnesses. Some of the physical symptoms of anxiety make people quite ill. Look at all the posts about stomach and bowel issues. They're a very common physical illness associated and caused by anxiety. There are other physical symptoms and illnesses associated with anxiety that are just as debilitating as any serious physical disease. The difference is how you treat it.
If indeed you came down with a serious physical illness like those you fear, would you not treat it? So why wouldn't you treat the illness you do have? There are many who are doing just that but sadly, as I see on the forums, there are so many more that are not. The diseases and fears I read about are real, scary and justifiably so, but ironically those very fears are doing much more damage than the disease itself could ever do.
So yes, I think you know deep down what's wrong. What are you going to do about it?
Positive thoughts
Great post thank you.
I think people (myself included) post here for reassurance, and because we want to stop worrying. That is the distinguishing thing.
I have crohns. I don't really worry about it, it is under control. If I have an issue or question, I go to a crohns forum.
But if I am scared of something unknown, or uncertain I come here.
We know our fears are not rational, but we doubt ourselves. It is very hard when something is happening and there is a symptom to try to get better. I try... and will be good for awhile, but then remember the symptom is real, and freak out. In my case, the current issue isn't a physical symptom. But that is when the battle has to be fought, and the anxiety controlled.
Everyone feels better when their symptom is proved false. Suddenly we are all experts. But that is an easy time to think you beat this and to not treat the anxiety.
I thought I beat this. I really did - up to a few weeks ago. But now that a few things come up it is clear I didnt.
Here is example of irrational fear. Last week I had an annual visit with my dermo. I spent all weekend examining my moles, taking pics, worrying.
I got the all clear. Nothing odd. She told me to come back in 1 yr.
Yesterday I noticed my wife wrote on a notepad an appt in March. I asked, she said oh your dermo called to come in March. I flipped. I got all sweaty and panicky. Why would they call? Well after 5min of this, we realized it was the CBT therapist, not dermo. My wife didn't hear properly. See how the mind works? How irrational my fear was. If I didn't realize it was the CBT therapist that would bother me all week.
Small issue - shows that anxiety needs to be treated. Uncertainty accepted. And we also need to realized that our bodies are not perfect. Things go wrong. They are seldum serious, but even when they are we underestimate our ability to deal with them.
Moscowolympics
21-12-14, 19:56
Great post thank you.
I think people (myself included) post here for reassurance, and because we want to stop worrying. That is the distinguishing thing.
I have crohns. I don't really worry about it, it is under control. If I have an issue or question, I go to a crohns forum.
But if I am scared of something unknown, or uncertain I come here.
We know our fears are not rational, but we doubt ourselves. It is very hard when something is happening and there is a symptom to try to get better. I try... and will be good for awhile, but then remember the symptom is real, and freak out. In my case, the current issue isn't a physical symptom. But that is when the battle has to be fought, and the anxiety controlled.
Everyone feels better when their symptom is proved false. Suddenly we are all experts. But that is an easy time to think you beat this and to not treat the anxiety.
I thought I beat this. I really did - up to a few weeks ago. But now that a few things come up it is clear I didnt.
Here is example of irrational fear. Last week I had an annual visit with my dermo. I spent all weekend examining my moles, taking pics, worrying.
I got the all clear. Nothing odd. She told me to come back in 1 yr.
Yesterday I noticed my wife wrote on a notepad an appt in March. I asked, she said oh your dermo called to come in March. I flipped. I got all sweaty and panicky. Why would they call? Well after 5min of this, we realized it was the CBT therapist, not dermo. My wife didn't hear properly. See how the mind works? How irrational my fear was. If I didn't realize it was the CBT therapist that would bother me all week.
Small issue - shows that anxiety needs to be treated. Uncertainty accepted. And we also need to realized that our bodies are not perfect. Things go wrong. They are seldum serious, but even when they are we underestimate our ability to deal with them.
Excellent posts in this thread - speak a lot of sense. I completely relate to the reassurance part; I'm pretty certain my health fears have developed over this year because of the stress I've endured in my personal life.
For me, it all began when I noticed a mole on my chest that had probably been there for years but suddenly caught my eye. I began panicking that I had melanoma. Then my sinuses began playing havoc but they've now calmed down and finally in July, the muscle twitches hit me and I began googling.
I have peaks and troughs; at times I feel I'm making real progress thanks to medication and counselling but then I'll re-lapse and begin all the ridiculous self-testing again. For example, yesterday I caught myself trying to lift chairs with a single thumb: chairs that are made of solid wood and wicker. As if anyone in their right mind would do such a thing.
However, I felt that if I couldn't, I was beginning to suffer from muscle weakness. Absolutely barmy. I laugh to myself when I think about it and when I explain to others I can't help but chuckle as well.
This is such a brilliant post, fmp. I've been meaning to track you down somewhere to tell you how much you've helped me over the last few months. Things I've seen, your wisdom and your kindness and understanding have been key to I know me tackling this head on. You and a few others who know who they are have been integral to my healing process and whilst I'm not 100% out of the woods, I fear I wouldn't have even gotten 10% out of them without you all. But I respect you so much for having come here and understand how serious of an illness anxiety can be.
Anyway I agree with everything completely. I always long for the day when people have that moment I had (even though I know I still have a long way to go!) when you just realise, hang on a minute, I'm wasting my life with this worry. Currently I have my right sided rib pain inside but I'm through checking poo (yay poo threads!) all the time and it was such a big first step. A good one though! I never knew about HA until I experienced it and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy the same way I wouldn't a physical illness. It seems so human to worry, which is why mindfulness is a huge way forward. This probably makes no sense cause I'm tired but just so much love for you and everyone. Hope people listen.
Catherine S
22-12-14, 00:18
For me it took some years for the penny to finally drop that there wasn't a serious medical reason for my heart doing loops, with all the skipped beats and flutters and breathlessness etc over the years...complete with all the negative tests. I can remember when in my 20's, 30's and 40's being on my knees because each episode brought the fear that although it hadn't happened yet 'this time' it was going to finish me off. That cycle went on for all of those years. Nowadays, with the help of hindsight (It hasn't finnished me off after 40 years!) and the beta blockers that calm my heart down, I now accept that my heart issues are not life-threatening and I try to help other members with the same symptoms to realize it too.
Don't get me wrong, it's been a voyage of discovery and I also know that if my digestive system is irritated then my heart will be too...this is a connection that has proved itself time and again but something I was never really aware of in the past, which would have helped me alot had I known.
But now at the age of 61 I can finally see that i'm now heading towards an age when all things physical can actually happen to me and that all those years spent worrying were a waste of my precious energy. Trying to get this through to the younger members who worry about the same symptoms is no easy thing, but I do rememebr how it feels to have worries about dying from imaginary illnesses, because it always feels real at the time.
Respect as always to you fishman.
ISB x
II admire your posts FMP because you are someone who genuinely is struggling with health issues.
My issue is palpitations which ten years ago were so bad they were ruining my life. Tests and reassurance didn't help and I seriously expected to drop dead any minute.
In the end I decided that because I couldn't seem to do anything about the palpitations, I would work on the anxiety. Claire Weeks books really helped, so did a bunch of cognitive therapy books. Mindfulness and meditation books and CD's help too.
My point is that whilst you cannot always control the physical symptoms that you have, you can always do something to improve your mental health.
About 6 months after the palpitations started, I began having serious gynaecological problems. Believe me, that seriously took my mind off my heart worries for quite a while.
As another poster said, don't waste your life worrying about imaginary illnesses - real ones will come along when you get older, so enjoy life now.
As always great post FMP.
A solid "rockstar" ========"FISHMANPA".
Fishmanpa....the voice of reason as always. Fantastic post. :yesyes:
almamatters
22-12-14, 19:52
Great post and so so true! :)
Very good and interesting posts and points from all on this thread.
One thing that I have noticed is a lot of people who have been battling anxiety for their entire lives and have been very successful are trying so hard to help the younger people get to that place as well. I do want to thank everybody who has this experience for their wisdom and guidance, it really is appreciated and I try to take it in and practice it.
I do want to suggest some patience with those of us who do not have as much life experience battling these demons. For some of us, we might have to go through some of the life experiences you have in order to get the same wisdom. We just aren't all there yet. It is admirable that everybody wants desperately to help each other here, but some people aren't always in the best place to follow advice and really internalize it due to where ever they may be on their life journey.
I know it can get frustrating seeing people post the same things over and over without seemingly doing anything differently to change their emotions/reactions. Sometimes people need that 101st time hearing it for it to click. Sometimes less. I don't know. I think everybody deserves patience and compassion. We can't force people to do what we want or think is best, but can be supportive and there if they have questions or need a shoulder to lean on. In that sense, each person knows there is help out there if they need it and it's their choice to take it or leave it.
On the other side of the spectrum, it is really lovely that so many people want to help each other get better and I'm not trying to say we shouldn't. Just to be patient with those who may not be ready for help yet.
Swgrl09,
There is a little truth to what you're saying but there are many here that have been battling this their entire lives and are just as bad or worse than they were 5,10, 20, 30 years ago. One only need look at the post history and see the pattern. If you don't start treating the illness it can and will get worse. I know this for a fact as I watched my ex progressively get worse as depression manifested into hoarding etc. It was awful to see. There are those with anxiety that manifested into agoraphobia and extreme OCD tendencies and other manifestations of their illness and are now essentially mentally crippled. An entire life wasted by worry. It's not so much a matter of having patience as much as it's a matter of taking action.
Much of what I post are my observations and thoughts concerning HA. I experienced it while on the H&N cancer boards, began to research it and thus here I am. Like I said, I subsequently developed some GAD and depression and fortunately, having spent time on the boards I recognized the signs and sought help.
Quite often, I see a defensive posture taken or a total lack of acknowledgement when one is asked if they're seeking help or told to seek help. Sadly, the reassurance cycle (crack to the HA sufferer) is such that it's incredibly difficult to break free. And again, sadly, that's all some are here to get and will get fed, be it from positive or negative responses. It's a big part of the illness. It's much easier to sit at the computer or your phone and type than it is to really work on yourself. It's much easier to feed the dragon with Google bits than it is to starve him. It's not easy to work on yourself. It takes an inner strength and fortitude and real desire to change.
In some ways, anxiety and HA are like a co-dependent relationship in that the sufferer knows how detrimental the behaviors and thoughts are but still does it anyway because, as miserable as it is and makes them feel, it's what they've come to know and accept as normal and have become comfortable with it. And just like a co-dependent relationship, it take a lot of courage and strength to walk away and get help.
Positive thoughts
I think it is important to add also that although some members with long term experience may appear 'anxiety-rational,' strong, and in some sense, 'recovered' by the fact they are able to answer others and shine some sense and logic on their anxieties/issues, that does not mean for one single second that they are still not fighting their own battle and ALSO require some support at times too.
Not everyone posts every 5 minutes. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, not at all. That is what a support forum is for, but some members - especially those who have had anxiety a long time as Fishmanpa mentions - suffer in silence and try to use the coping techniques they have relied on for years.
What irks me is when these very members make one or two posts every now and then, and get few answers in support, especially those who frequently support others. There is a sort of assumption that they will be ok, but the fact is, they are also sufferers too. Having anxiety for a long time does help, granted, but even long term sufferers need a helping hand too.
It would simply be nice if the forum worked on an entirely level-playing field when it comes to those giving and those taking support, that's all I'm trying to say, and long term sufferring does not necessarily mean always coping.
Good points made by both, debs and FMP. FMP, I do agree with everything you are posting. I guess maybe my perception is off on the tone of your post, it sounds like you are frustrated, but it's hard to tell online of course. I agree 100% that it is a cycle that needs to be broken, as have been in that cycle myself. I guess when I see people not take the advice, I find I do better personally with just trying to be patient and understand that it is anxiety keeping them in the cycle. If they don't want to get help, I am not going to really use up all my energy getting frustrated convincing people to do so who aren't going to. Does that make sense? I'll just try to be supportive and move on.
Debs, you are right that even long-standing sufferers still have struggles. I don't want to forget that either. I think the fact that it's not a level-playing field, although frustrating sometimes like you said, leads to a lot of various views and opinions as well as advice from all walks of life.
MyNameIsTerry
23-12-14, 04:00
Swgrl09,
There is a little truth to what you're saying but there are many here that have been battling this their entire lives and are just as bad or worse than they were 5,10, 20, 30 years ago. One only need look at the post history and see the pattern. If you don't start treating the illness it can and will get worse. I know this for a fact as I watched my ex progressively get worse as depression manifested into hoarding etc. It was awful to see. There are those with anxiety that manifested into agoraphobia and extreme OCD tendencies and other manifestations of their illness and are now essentially mentally crippled. An entire life wasted by worry. It's not so much a matter of having patience as much as it's a matter of taking action.
Much of what I post are my observations and thoughts concerning HA. I experienced it while on the H&N cancer boards, began to research it and thus here I am. Like I said, I subsequently developed some GAD and depression and fortunately, having spent time on the boards I recognized the signs and sought help.
Quite often, I see a defensive posture taken or a total lack of acknowledgement when one is asked if they're seeking help or told to seek help. Sadly, the reassurance cycle (crack to the HA sufferer) is such that it's incredibly difficult to break free. And again, sadly, that's all some are here to get and will get fed, be it from positive or negative responses. It's a big part of the illness. It's much easier to sit at the computer or your phone and type than it is to really work on yourself. It's much easier to feed the dragon with Google bits than it is to starve him. It's not easy to work on yourself. It takes an inner strength and fortitude and real desire to change.
In some ways, anxiety and HA are like a co-dependent relationship in that the sufferer knows how detrimental the behaviors and thoughts are but still does it anyway because, as miserable as it is and makes them feel, it's what they've come to know and accept as normal and have become comfortable with it. And just like a co-dependent relationship, it take a lot of courage and strength to walk away and get help.
Positive thoughts
Good thread FMP. I miss having discussions about subjects I would have in non health forums so its good to see some popping up from time to time.
Its the obsessional element of it FMP. I don't have HA but as an OCD sufferer, I can see similarities. Its not OCD, there is a difference, but what is the same is that OCD sufferers tend to be quite obsessive regardless of their rituals and thats also true of HA people.
That same obsessional element of their personality drives them to perform things that keep them anxious. I can identify with this because my obsessional side makes me stick to routines which ultimately reduce my quality of life and then cause depression. The HA person seeks out information that they know is going to scare them and their Cognitive Distortions don't allow them to see outside of a very narrow channel of reality hence seeing the worst out of a long list of possibles that can also be no more than a cold. This happens to an extent with OCD when it comes to performing rituals that make the sufferer more anxious (although some forms are more about reducing anxiety through 'cancelling out') and out of all the forms of OCD, Pure O seems very close to HA as the Pure O person believes they are a bad person which upsets them which sounds like the Googling aspect of HA.
Thats why I tend to read threads discussing HA as I have always found in my career that to understand how your job works, you look at those up & downstream of yourself of your processes in order to improve yours. I have found that the obsessional tendency of people with OCD is discussed less but its discussed a lot in HA.
On the patience side, I think swgrl was trying to say remember how everyone was. Action is fine but some people need guiding to it more than others and it may not be a quick process as it means often confronting fears. Inspirational threads are always useful but no therapist in the world can force people to take the actions they need to in order to recover and it can come down to offering guidance without emotional investment (as the therapist would) or to avoid. Honestly, its the same on OCD when it comes to the disturbing intrusive thoughts and posters can keep coming back seeking reassurance or explainations for things which don't need explaining because its irrelevent with an irrational disorder.
:yesyes:
Its the obsessional element of it FMP. I don't have HA but as an OCD sufferer, I can see similarities. Its not OCD, there is a difference, but what is the same is that OCD sufferers tend to be quite obsessive regardless of their rituals and thats also true of HA people.
That same obsessional element of their personality drives them to perform things that keep them anxious. I can identify with this because my obsessional side makes me stick to routines which ultimately reduce my quality of life and then cause depression. The HA person seeks out information that they know is going to scare them and their Cognitive Distortions don't allow them to see outside of a very narrow channel of reality hence seeing the worst out of a long list of possibles that can also be no more than a cold. This happens to an extent with OCD when it comes to performing rituals that make the sufferer more anxious (although some forms are more about reducing anxiety through 'cancelling out') and out of all the forms of OCD, Pure O seems very close to HA as the Pure O person believes they are a bad person which upsets them which sounds like the Googling aspect of HA.
Thankyou MNIT, you have put into words what I had written (and lost).
I would love to hear your thoughts on why we strive to keep ourself anxious and scared. That is my million dollar question.
Quite often, I see a defensive posture taken or a total lack of acknowledgement when one is asked if they're seeking help or told to seek help. Sadly, the reassurance cycle (crack to the HA sufferer) is such that it's incredibly difficult to break free. And again, sadly, that's all some are here to get and will get fed, be it from positive or negative responses. It's a big part of the illness. It's much easier to sit at the computer or your phone and type than it is to really work on yourself. It's much easier to feed the dragon with Google bits than it is to starve him. It's not easy to work on yourself. It takes an inner strength and fortitude and real desire to change.
spot on FMP ..... and there it is above where you have what Terry describes so you carry on how you describe, people unwittingly help you with short term reassurance and you start again tomorrow.
The real sticking point is the leap between being where Terry describes and having space to find that inner strength and fortitude.
---------- Post added at 08:19 ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 ----------
The two quots have not been highlighted so I hope this makes sense
Lucia x
---------- Post added at 08:20 ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 ----------
Quotes (it's still early:winks:)
Thank you, Terry, you said exactly what I was trying to say. This is a good discussion, I agree.
---------- Post added at 07:10 ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 ----------
Luc - as to why we strive to keep ourselves anxious and scared, I think it is to protect ourselves. It's "safer" in our minds that way.
Thank you, Terry, you said exactly what I was trying to say. This is a good discussion, I agree.
---------- Post added at 07:10 ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 ----------
Luc - as to why we strive to keep ourselves anxious and scared, I think it is to protect ourselves. It's "safer" in our minds that way.
Great points... all of them. That last point is why I compared HA and the behaviors to a co-dependent relationship. You know deep down (back to my OP) it's destructive but it's what you've come to know and a part of who you are (now) and "safer" regardless of knowing it isn't.
And yes, it is a sense of frustration (and sadness) on my part as the realization that some, no matter how much advice, encouragement and guidance is given, will remain trapped in the quagmire that is their illness. An some, despite seeking treatment, will never heal.
Positive thoughts
I can associate with that point and I think it is probably the thing that stops me getting better TBH. By better I mean back to normal, where I was before - rather than better in comparison to yesterday or the day before.
I certainly experience the sensation of fear of being happy through fear of it being taken away. I am sure there are psychological reasons for that, and a few people have tried to go there. But I am working on finding a way to let go and be crazy, and accept that whilst crisis from elation might be a greater fall, that the experience of elation is worth the risk.
I have always been something of an inhibited kind of guy and so the anxiety as it started to develop just played on that side of my personality.
danevanscoy968
23-12-14, 13:59
Thanks to this site. I think this is really a very useful post.
But I am working on finding a way to let go and be crazy, and accept that whilst crisis from elation might be a greater fall, that the experience of elation is worth the risk.
That point is much the same when it comes to love and relationships. Most everyone has experienced heartbreak and trepidation concerning opening your heart up again, but the benefits far outweigh the negatives when you experience it.
Positive thoughts
True enough FMP, but I think in the mind of an anxiety sufferer trepidation can be replaced with abject fear to the point of never doing things. The quote of mine in isolation actually sounds quite dramatic - actually I am in an incredibly good place :)
True enough FMP, but I think in the mind of an anxiety sufferer trepidation can be replaced with abject fear to the point of never doing things. The quote of mine in isolation actually sounds quite dramatic - actually I am in an incredibly good place :)
I know you are Chris but the point is still very valid. Fear, no matter how irrational, can be totally crippling.
Positive thoughts
Sunflower2
23-12-14, 16:09
I've enjoyed reading this thread! I don't have health anxiety, but I do have extreme emetophobia and ocd which over the years has slowly taken over my life.. Firstly avoiding other people, then unknown food, then far away places, then being alone, then being away from home over night, then driving, then being outside, then type of food, then quantity of food, then times of eating.. To the point where my life is governed by avoiding feeling sick.
And it's completely irrational and crazy. You'd think it would get to the point where it couldn't get any worse but that's not the nature of the mind.. It obsesses away until it finds something new, something it's missed, and if you don't stop it you can end up being completely mentally crippled. And then even if you do manage to fight it, there's the risk of relapse which you need to battle the same thing over and over again. And unlike a physical illness, you can just cut off the bit that's broken. You might not even realise you have a mental illness. You have to accept you're ill and be willing to take the treatment or you don't even have a chance of getting over it. Even then, it's not a cure it's just a control measure. Sure people recover, but I think they're more often the ones that have had anxiety/depression for a reason, rather than being prone to it. And if life gets rough, it is sure to reappear.
I think I've probably just sounded really depressed oops.. It's not a life sentence though, I've still had great fun over the years despite the anxiety. Like any illness, you can choose how much you let it affect your happiness. Now I'm away to do some exposure therapy!
And unlike a physical illness, you can just cut off the bit that's broken.
That's an interesting post Kimberly. I highlighted that sentence because I can tell you first hand that cutting off the bit that's broken, while correcting the physical issue, leaves scars that constantly remind you of the operation, side effects and psychological trauma. I believe, and it's the reason for my OP, that anyone posting on this forum, in any of the sub forums recognizes they have a problem. They may not accept it but they recognize something is off.
Just like one would do rehabilitation to regain certain physical abilities, one must do rehabilitation to regain psychological abilities like the exposure therapy you speak of or CBT, etc. It's a process that one must continually work on or risk taking too many steps backward.
Positive thoughts
Nice connection between physical and emotional trauma, FMP. And to take it further, it's important to start slowly with treatment and recovery. If you are working out, you don't expect to lift 100 lbs the first try. If you are doing rehab, you dont run a marathon the first try. It's the same with mental health. Take small steps and slowly build on it. There will be bumps along the way, you will be exhausted, and it won't be easy, but its the healthy way to do things.
Nice connection between physical and emotional trauma, FMP. And to take it further, it's important to start slowly with treatment and recovery. If you are working out, you don't expect to lift 100 lbs the first try. If you are doing rehab, you dont run a marathon the first try. It's the same with mental health. Take small steps and slowly build on it. There will be bumps along the way, you will be exhausted, and it won't be easy, but its the healthy way to do things.
Exactly!... and it's an ongoing thing. Recovery is not like you recover from a cold. It's not like you take some OTC med and it's gone a week later. You have to work at it every day even when you feel you don't need to. I have swallowing issues due to surgery and radiation and have to do swallowing exercises every day or I can lose the ability to swallow. The same goes for many concerning mental health recovery. There are exercises (like those in CBT) that require a daily run through to help "tune" your mind to cope with whatever gets thrown at it.
Positive thoughts
I certainly experience the sensation of fear of being happy through fear of it being taken away. I am sure there are psychological reasons for that, and a few people have tried to go there.
....so CPE do you think this is why we sabotage our happiness by putting ourselves in shit places. For example, It's Christmas so I will just find a little lump or some blood to ensure I am wrapped up in a mode of fear and have to use all my strength to be semi, albeit falsely, upbeat for my kids. You could guarantee I would be examining the boobs that I had avoided for most of the year the week before Christmas or holidays. My subcocious -if that what it was had to get me in that place. So then the question was did I have low self worth and did not feel worthy of happiness ?
Oh how much thought have I given this !! I can however now say that whilst I have to keep my HA in check by concerted daily effort with exposure, distraction and a lot of self talk I am 90% better than this time last year and the world seems like a different place.
I come to this forum for the chance to partake in discussions like this and with the genuine want to help others. I should be more patient and not start (0 response, that's 0 response posts Ha) about reassurance seeking and reassurance giving but I struggle to Think of things to say so will leave that to you Swgrl:winks: xxx
Lucia - you could be describing me - and yes I think that is very much the case with the sabotage thing. Just think back how many people have come on here immediately prior to a wedding or holiday and I dare say also Christmas. Being anxious becomes strangely comfortable.
I think if I recollect previous conversations that our situations are quite similar in the way we view things. What you describe makes perfect sense - right down to the fact that I can feel my subconscious telling me to check for things - obviously my lack of boobs is a big difference in that regard :) a key difference this year though is I am starting to learn how to cut it off at the pass.
---------- Post added at 19:17 ---------- Previous post was at 19:15 ----------
PS I think your post about reassurance giving and seeking was largely spot on. In fact have started similar things myself in the past. Tends to be a contentious subject though with some people viewing it as a necessary part of a process and others (like me) viewing it as nothing more than the fuel that feeds the raging fire and probably if anything makes it worse.
Sunflower2
23-12-14, 19:50
But then FMP, removing the bit that's 'broken' although it causes other problems, the original one is gone for good! It's just replaced with a bunch of other things. And with any illness at all, you never can forget what has happened to you.. Mentally or physically! Treating mental illness also can give side effects and affect you psychologically.. Cbt therapy and others is not easy, and you have to be willing to feel discomfort. And any medication has the ability to give unwanted side effects. Sectioning would be extremely traumatic, and it will affect your life forever! Physical illnesses and mental illnesses can have very similar effects depending on the severity!
Swgrl, I agree you need to take things slowly, but I've found that my recovery gets completed halted and put in reverse if my anxiety gets out of control. It doesn't seem to matter if I'm working on it or not, if the anxiety gets bad there doesn't seem to be much I can do to stop it. I just work a bit slower and wait for it to pass. Although this time last year I was in a similar state anxiety wise, struggle with driving and food, this year I am able to put into practice the skills I've learnt to reduce the impact it has on my life. I feel too stressed to drive into my town, so ive taken the bus and practiced driving in the area. Last year I sat at home and cried and felt sorry for myself!
Likewise CPE, I can rid the thoughts pretty quickly now. They still come at me(old habits die hard) but they do not have the same hold on me. I know longer have to neutralise thoughts. I feel stronger now than I think I ever have done, I suppose after being in such a dark place.
My fear with upcoming events was never the fear of being ill ie being sick in another country or the doctors not being open on Christmas day mine was the fear of not being on top form, having to perform. The fear of spoiling things for others. The more pressure I put on myself the more anxious I became. if I had 10 people coming to stay at Christmas I would count down the hours until they left. I now see that this way of thinking relied on a great deal of nervousness energy which I suppose had to come out someway. Therefore why not put myself in a position where I could use a shed load of it.
My brain is now relaxed and has slowed right down which allows it the space to be rational, to see the wood for the trees. When trying to respond to some of the posts I remember what I was like, what extremely irrational things I did, rituals I fulfilled and I do not know if any amount of talking to me would have gotten through. People who tried to talk to me rationally re health were just a noise.
People who tried to talk to me rationally re health were just a noise.
This is how I feel sometimes when I respond to a post with logic or suggesting getting help. The OP totally ignores it and grabs onto the reply that feeds the dragon.... at least it seems that way to me.
Positive thoughts
I think it's a matter of finding a healthy distance from the people you are referring to then. It's wonderful to offer help and logic, but then disconnect from it if it is too frustrating for you. I totally get how it can be frustrating. I think it's about knowing what you personally can handle and how much you can give without it being detrimental to your own feelings. Like Luc said, there were times where any other response was just noise. I've been there too.
If I find myself getting frustrated with somebody and feeling like I took the time to try to help for no reason, I just know that I said what I needed to say and then try to move on. I guess I just figure that that person is not in a place where they are ready to hear me and so be it. I'll still be here when/if they come around. I guess when I originally said patience, I also meant having patience with ourselves and having that healthy distance from the situation.
I think it's a matter of finding a healthy distance from the people you are referring to then. It's wonderful to offer help and logic, but then disconnect from it if it is too frustrating for you.
There's no issue in distancing myself as I probably see the spinning wheel sooner than most and recognize those in the midst of the abyss. It doesn't mean however that I'm not concerned nor care. If anything the opposite is true and perhaps that's a fault to a degree.
Again it comes back to my OP. Those here know just by being here they have an issue whether they consciously or unconsciously accept it. It depends on the individual as to whether they acknowledge what their eyes are seeing. I'm not one to mince words. Perhaps that's a fault as well. Some may not want to hear or see the truth even when it's staring them in the face. There's a difference between a band aid (reassurance) and stitches (seeking help).
Positive thoughts
FMP I knew I had HA and at the time it kicked in was studying for my PHDS in European Social Policy so rational and logic were let's say strong points for me. Unfortunately they were not strong enough to quell my compulsion to look at a top for upto 2 hours to check for blood stains:doh:. I forget this and was very close recently to asking someone oh here if they were a hoax!
I like you am not a word mincer and am quite direct but genuinely want to help people. I try to respond in a way that might have got to me..... And then I remember I'm just a noise and that person wants to here anecdotes and similar stories relating to their 'illness" .
Your words of wisdom, your efforts to offer fact and figures turned into probability ( which I particularly like) and your rational serve so many on here.
Lucia x
MyNameIsTerry
24-12-14, 07:36
I can associate with that point and I think it is probably the thing that stops me getting better TBH. By better I mean back to normal, where I was before - rather than better in comparison to yesterday or the day before.
I think this will be the same for everyone CPE. We probably hold ourselves back by worrying about whether we will ever get better. I've managed to block this out more now and it only returns when the anxiety flares up or the depression kicks in.
Perhaps striving to go back to where we were before is counterproductive? I think we all need to keep in mind that we are going to learn a lot about ourselves & others by going through this process and providing we can recover, we will ultimately be better for it.
I remember when I attended the charity walk-ins because they had a slogan "getting better doesn't mean returning to a previous state". This can be taken to mean you just don't get better and remain trapped in the cycle or it could mean you come out of the other end a new person with more understanding of mental health and greater compassion for others. I cling on to the latter but what I do know is that whilst I have not yet recovered as such, I have learnt a lot so I can't come out of this the same person. Besides, would I want to anyway? I remember being judgemental of fellow managers going of with stress when they had easier lives than I did but once this hit me, I felt quite bad for thinking that way and I now know that I won't think like that again. Perhaps thats part of what this slogan means?
This is how I feel sometimes when I respond to a post with logic or suggesting getting help. The OP totally ignores it and grabs onto the reply that feeds the dragon.... at least it seems that way to me.
Positive thoughts
Are you claiming to be rational? :whistles:
MyNameIsTerry
24-12-14, 08:22
That's an interesting post Kimberly. I highlighted that sentence because I can tell you first hand that cutting off the bit that's broken, while correcting the physical issue, leaves scars that constantly remind you of the operation, side effects and psychological trauma. I believe, and it's the reason for my OP, that anyone posting on this forum, in any of the sub forums recognizes they have a problem. They may not accept it but they recognize something is off.
Just like one would do rehabilitation to regain certain physical abilities, one must do rehabilitation to regain psychological abilities like the exposure therapy you speak of or CBT, etc. It's a process that one must continually work on or risk taking too many steps backward.
Positive thoughts
Yes, I think you are right. You wouldn't be looking for forums for any reason unless you felt you had a need to do so e.g. my phone recently wouldn't boot so I spent hours on tech forums trying to come up with answers and ways to fix it.
How is it any different that someone exhibiting symptoms of anxiety would search across Google and come across this place? Thats how I found NMP. Guess what, I didn't join for a couple of years and why didn't I? I would first be reading for reassurance, but later it became more about seeing what others were doing. I finally joined because I couldn't get to the charity walk-ins but as well because I thought I could add something because I am far better than I was.
I think its easy to find out you have anxiety. Confronting it is a very different ball game. I know I spent a long time just pushing through will little direction in the hope it would change, which it did a bit, but it needed more effort than this...smarter methods and thats why people should come on here, learn about it (which helps reduce it) and then see what others are recommending and go for it.
---------- Post added at 08:11 ---------- Previous post was at 08:05 ----------
Nice connection between physical and emotional trauma, FMP. And to take it further, it's important to start slowly with treatment and recovery. If you are working out, you don't expect to lift 100 lbs the first try. If you are doing rehab, you dont run a marathon the first try. It's the same with mental health. Take small steps and slowly build on it. There will be bumps along the way, you will be exhausted, and it won't be easy, but its the healthy way to do things.
Yes, for most of us we didn't become anxious overnight, it slowly occured and we may notice now as we look beck when at the time we had no clue. The term is neuroplasticity and the way out is the same as the way in, work towards positives that will create new neural pathways which means the old ones stop 'firing'.
This is obviously going to take a while. Its how we learn other activities to, like driving. Thats why we have to be realistic otherwise we damage the process. At first I wanted to get better quick but later I decided it would be better to take years if I had to but got my freedom back.
It all depends on how long and how severe as well because there could be a lot to correct and in long term cases you have to not only battle Cognitive Distortions but Schema Bias (beliefs) because you start to see a non anxious life as irrational.
---------- Post added at 08:22 ---------- Previous post was at 08:11 ----------
And unlike a physical illness, you can just cut off the bit that's broken.
You are going to hate me Kimberley...but if you fancy having a lesion on the Amydala in question, or severing the channel that communicates fear to the prefrontal cortex...you can actually make yourself fear proof.
Maybe we should look at it as a physical illness? The process of neuroplasticity is well documented and that occurs by neurons associating with each other to create groups and new neural pathways. Recent clinical research into MBSR, MrAndy posted in a thread on the GAD board, showed physical changes to the Amygdala associated with fear (reduction of density) and to the areas associated with compassionate thinking (increase of density).
So, if science is proving that these physical changes to the brain take place, perhaps the medical world should consider us as physical issue patients?
What you say is still 100% true, we can't cut it off (well not ethically anyway!), but we can promote physical change in the brain in order to resolve it.
I think we need to understand anxiety first but then we should stop trying to understand why we feel this way (other than educational of course as if you are not in the obsessional cycle of searching it out) and concentrate on wellness. We need to keep the positive areas of the brain working as much as possible to give it the best chance of success. This doesn't me analysing, which is well known to make things worse, but to simply exist in the side of the brain that doesn't have a connection with anxiety and over time the subconscious sets itself to default this way instead of where we were when we were anxious.
Yes, I think you are right. You wouldn't be looking for forums for any reason unless you felt you had a need to do so e.g. my phone recently wouldn't boot so I spent hours on tech forums trying to come up with answers and ways to fix it.
How is it any different that someone exhibiting symptoms of anxiety would search across Google and come across this place? Thats how I found NMP. Guess what, I didn't join for a couple of years and why didn't I? I would first be reading for reassurance, but later it became more about seeing what others were doing. I finally joined because I couldn't get to the charity walk-ins but as well because I thought I could add something because I am far better than I was.
I think its easy to find out you have anxiety. Confronting it is a very different ball game. I know I spent a long time just pushing through will little direction in the hope it would change, which it did a bit, but it needed more effort than this...smarter methods and thats why people should come on here, learn about it (which helps reduce it) and then see what others are recommending and go for it.
Personally, and I've spoken of this before, I found the forums due to HA sufferers visiting the cancer forums I'm part of. For the most part, someone would join and post on the boards, get some answers to their questions and move on. Occasionally however, there would be someone who was in the midst of a meltdown. They would be reassured and continue to post to the point of members getting upset and some were eventually asked to leave or blocked. Recently, someone who I ended up knowing from the cancer forums found NMP and posted about that causing somewhat of an uproar. I will say this on that matter. I do understand the fear when you think you have a serious illness, but please think twice or ten times before joining a cancer forum or any other and posting for reassurance. It can be disrespectful to those suffering from the very disease you fear and isn't helpful as all it does is feed the dragon.
So, I became interested in HA from the posts I mentioned, found NMP and thus here I am. Having been through some of the fears posted, I offered responses and advice based on my experiences. At the same time I learned a lot about anxiety in general and it helped me with the GAD ("scanxiety") that subsequently developed. The CBT course proved to be very beneficial in offering ways to challenge my mindset both with the GAD and depression which were the result of my physical issues. In fact, the information on this site helped me in that I was able to identify the "scanxiety" almost immediately and take action. For me, GAD manifests itself in an extreme irritability and some stomach distress. Turns out I had some pretty nasty reflux (meds prescribed for both that and GAD) and now I have the tools to deal with it should it rear it's head. The site was also very helpful in helping my daughter deal with some severe anxiety and depression. Her mother and I made sure she got help. Now? She's been on meds and therapy for a while and is doing fantastic! She's back to school, working and enjoying her life once again. So I know for a fact that with the proper help and effort one can heal.
I truly can't speak highly enough about the CBT course offered here. It's quite comprehensive. It does require work and effort but just like anything else in life, you must work hard to get the results you want. That along with some therapy helped me tremendously. Those reading this that haven't downloaded it (it's free), please check it out.
Positive thoughts
Bump... I think you know why...
Saw a few posters that would benefit... Many times, someone will come on looking for reassurance and their post is full of it. "I feel this or that but the tests were all normal" etc... Or "I know this is anxiety but...."
Some are in the place where they're angry at their anxiety (which is a good thing IMO as they still recognize what's going on) and sadly some, due to the psychosis of panic and other reasons can't see the forest for the trees.
Still, it comes down to the place you're voicing your concerns... An anxiety forum. Somewhere, despite the fear and irrationality, lies a piece of logic, a nugget of rationality, that keeps you functioning despite the fear. Just like physical therapy can help alleviate back pain for instance (I happen to have some serious back pain today and need to do the exercises), mental therapy in the form of counseling, CBT etc. along with meds if needed can help you to heal and function better.
Positive thoughts
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