View Full Version : Do You Recover by not Trying to Recover?
Hey Guys,
The striving, the agitation, the fighting to get better, all this adds more stress and anxiety on top of what we have. We all want to recover and be like we used to be.
But if we stop trying to recover, if we stop the fighting, stop the wanting, then can we get better?
I have made a lot of progress from accepting. I am no longer inhibited in any way from agoraphobia for example. The natural inclination is to fight and want to get better. But is this going about it the right way?
Buddha for example says that all suffering is caused by wanting or desiring things!
Jon
Hi Jon....am on here late tonight as just calming after a panic attack..I understand what you mean..do we fight to get better rather than just 'accept' and live with it. I thought I had done quite a bit of accepting, but tonights attack of anxiety was a doozy ! I then feel as if I haven't accepted at all.. But probably being hard on myself...
So pleased you have come a long way with this for yourself. Long may it continue ...cheers
Hey Clement,
Thanks a lot! I see your from Oz, the same as Dr Weekes! :) All my success has been down to her.
I find that if I feel anxious or panicky etc that if I remind myself that it´s because of adrenalin and tension, this makes things cleaer, and takes the fear/mystery away.
Letting it all happen, not trying to improve, just letting it be, being neutral, not wanting to improve or get worse, just letting it happen, being aloof, or non-chalant, has done wonders for me!
Best,
Jon
Hi Jon ... No I'm actually in New Zealand. Where are you?
I try the 'observer ' practise , however , hard at times to be two people !!
I've heard of Dr Weekes.. Glad she has been great for you..
I feel better just coming here!
Hi Clement,
Sorry, Im useless at flags! :)
There´s a counsellor in Auckland who has helped me a lot. He has his own clinic there. He used to be agoraphobic but overcame it via Weekes and now has his own clinic, where he helps people from all over the world. He´s been doing this for the last 22 years.
I credit him with helping me recover from agoraphobia and come off my meds. He´s a pensioner who likes helping other sufferers. I´d be lost if I´d never found him. Some of his former patients have set up a forum which I am a member of and lots of people are fully recovered because of him. Im not fully there yet but am confident that I will as Ive already came so far!
Here´s the site his patients have set up http://freedomfromfeargroup.com/
Best,
Jon
What is the name of the person in Auckland?
I think we all have the tendancy to think to much about our own condition. It's the very job of the mind to analyse and solve problems. And according to Buddha and co. it's the very mind that creates the problems in the first place.
Essentially Claire Weekes and Paul David say the same thing - to accept the feelings, which is to say acknowledge their presence but give them no more consideration.
Law of attraction practitioners (like Hicks) say similar. The reason why we fear is because its the mind focusing on the absence of something (ie peace, confidence, money, etc). So we create our identity as 'anxious people' and we attract those feared feelings and experiences because what we send out (anxious beliefs/thoughts) we attract back to ourselves. But they go on to say that fear and 'lack' is there so we recognise what we do want instead (can't know good without bad), and then we can start to attract good things into our life, such as peace and happiness.
The reason why I say this is that they say we must stop 'beating the drum' of the anxious thinking. that means stop telling our stories and start telling NEW stories that fit who we want to be. It may be difficult at first but it means you start identifying what IS good in your life, which then snowballs into a more positive mindset.
When I think about it, there is very little evidence that says thinking about our problems and trying to work them out solves anything. After all, isn't it what we've all been doing relentlessly for years without getting anywhere but further into that bottomless pit? Talk therapies provide relief but aren't particularly effective. I really can't think of anything right now that validates a system of focusing on the problem. As the man said - if you focus on the problem you leave no room for a solution.
NE21 worrier
15-01-15, 23:16
I am another who subscribes to Claire Weekes theories - but, like everyone, I have my tough moments. Perhaps my worst physical anxiety symptom is globus - this is something which I find really difficult to 'accept' because, for me, the feeling of something in the throat seems so real - and is real as I understand the muscles in the oesophagus are tightened with the tension.
A negative thought process will go thus: notice throat tightening -> worry about eating -> struggle with food at a meal-time -> notice throat tightening. Any thoughts on how to break this exact cycle with acceptance?
:)
Have you actually been referred for an endoscopy? Knowing all is well and that this is a case of anxiety-induced globus can help the brain to accept that there is nothing physically wrong and gradually-very much gradually-you will learn not to give these sensations any importance. It took me ages but I did it.
At the time you wonder how can these sensations be so real and not be due to anything organically wrong-all of which just fuels the wretched anxiety cycle.
I also totally agree with the OP's points of view
hey Pulisa,
I read a lot of self help books and I´m familiar with the law of attraction and such.
However, I think it is about seeing the anxiety in a different light through practise of facing and letting it be, ie accepting as opposed to deliberatelty thinking about it in a different. When we feel anxiety we feel fear, we become alarmed, and want to run away, so to speak.
The reality of it all though is that it is just a harmless chemical that will never and has never harmed us at all, ie adrenaline, and also tension working together. And because our minds and nervous systems are tired then we can´t see it in a logical way, and get caught in a cycle, fear-adrenaline-fear etc.
But through facing and accepting we get to think ¨hey, this aint so scary!¨And by repeated practise, we build up this attitude of strength. So then we think this way automatically. The anxiety loses its grip, the fear goes and bingo, recovery. The symptoms happen but you dont care. But only through repeated facing and accepting can we slowly change our beliefs.
Jon
Pretty much how I got better, I just put it all to oneside. Something I never thought I'd be able to do. Remember to replace your anxious beliefs with good beliefs about your life.
Hey Pancho,
How´s your anxiety now?
Jon
Sunflower2
16-01-15, 20:13
Jon, I think the proof in what you say is that when we are anxious about something, as soon as it's over or we are forced to think of something different, the anxiety and tension disappears. So really all that we fear is fear itself. And most of the time fears are to do with uncertainty and the unknown, so it's not the feared thing, but the reaction you have to that feared situation and your ability to cope.
I do think when you stop trying to fight the anxiety it gets easier, stop looking for a cure and just find ways of living with the anxiety. As soon as you become used to the anxiety and stop worrying about it, it tends to subside?
The main problem I have are obsessive thoughts. Mindfulness does help to calm my mind, but the sheer volume of them makes it difficult to switch off from them all the time. They are also so strong and persistent that my life is very much restricted and I am severely underweight as a result. I think with things like this where it's the same thought over and over for years, I do need to figure out what is keeping it going rather than float past it.
Hi Kimberley,
I agree with everything that you say. I used to get anxious thoughts a lot bt now they seem to be gone.
Here´s what worked for me. When you get the thoughts dont try and get rid of them, dont try to not think them. Let them stay in your head as long as they want.
Realise that thoughts mean nothing. They scare you yea, but they have absolutely NO BASIS to them. All they can do is scare you. They have no fact to them. They are just words of the alphabet put together to make words, which are put together to make sentences. This is what you need to realise and also tell yourself when you think them.
So tell the thoughts that they are stupid, that they are a big joke. And tell them they can stay in your head as long as they want.
By dealing with them like this you stop giving them so much attention, you see them for what they are just words, and whats so scary about that? Right now they are fooling you but thats only because youre a little emotional fatigued, so you over react to them.
They will come less and less of then until they finally leave. Its not about getting rid of them, its about seeing them for being nothing, which is what they are.
Best,
Jon
MyNameIsTerry
16-01-15, 21:21
Thats the same aim as Mindfulness meditation Jon. It teaches you to view the thoughts without judgment and the result is reduction in frequency & intensity.
Mindfulness goes further then just this in that it teaches appreciation & living in the moment.
There is a lot of similarity in Dr Weekes methods to that so I wonder whether she took anything from these older practices at a time when modern medicine was still shunning such things.
Sunflower2
16-01-15, 22:37
I've tried so many times to not take notice of my thoughts and that they have no basis but to scare me. Except my mind analyses absolutely everything and adds up everything as evidence for the thoughts which makes it so hard not to believe them. If I don't catch them quickly I'm also away off in my own world. I am getting better at recognising and naming thoughts as an obsessive thought that isn't true. The most deepset thoughts, about germs and contamination, I've had them since I was 14. So my life sort of developed around it and I have so many things I have to do, and if I don't do them the worry becomes too much. So as long as I do these things then I don't worry. Although this is the core of my anxiety, the panic and gad only became disabling in the past 2 years. So at the moment I've just been working on the worst of the anxiety so I can function, and this doesn't even touch the obsessions and compulsions! Mindfulness and cbt is working well for the general anxiety, hopefully eventually I'll be able to work on the deeper issues.
I believe the key to recovery is distracting yourself to the point where you feel normal again (something you really immerse yourself in), realising 'hey, I was normal when I was doing that...no anxiety or symptoms at all!' which then leads you to discover that anxiety is a phantom. It's a condition you perpetuate by worrying about all the elements of it. Of course it takes practice, and repetition, and proving to yourself again and again that you are okay and can do the things you want to do, but that's what really saved me, I think. So yes, accepting and not being threatened by it are important. You may tell yourself that everything is bad and you feel rubbish, but its a false emotion, put there by anxiety. Once you truly know that and feel more in control and not afraid, your body will start to recover from all the physical symptoms too. Took mine about a month and I was feeling better than ever
It's fine thanks Jon, it says hi!
Hi Terry,
Excuse me I wasn´t aware. I thought mindfulness was where you try to ignore the thoughts, and instead focus on a sort of nothingness. Like try and go inbetween your thoughts.
This was what I tried to do before, I´d have anxious thoughts and then I´d try and not think them, I´d try and empty my mind. But this was giving the thoughts importantce, and attention. Now I just let them come, and then they go. In fact theyve seemed to stop coming. I no longer tense up when I think them I just take a deep breath and let them come. I know that they mean nothing, so it´s fine for me that they come.
In other words Im not anxious about them, so they have lost their power.
Best,
Jon
---------- Post added at 15:52 ---------- Previous post was at 15:47 ----------
Hi Kimberly,
I think this is where you´re going wrong. There is nothing wrong with taking notice of your thoughts. Where you go wrong is getting involved with them, or letting them scare you.
For eg I can think in my mind all day, ever minute, the thought, ¨today I´m gonna get shot, today someone is gonna shoot me!¨ And I can feel relaxed all day. No problem.
The problem happens when I think ¨today someone is gonna shoot me!¨ And then I start thinking about it, and how terrible it would be to get shot, how much of a tramuatic experience it would be. And I´d get anxious, I´d panic, I´d start to sweat, palpitations etc.
You can have whatever thoughts you want in your head, and it doesn´t matter. It only matters when you let them scare you.
And remember they are just letters of the alphabet put together to make words, which are put together to make sentences. Thats all! They mean no more than this!
Best,
Jon
---------- Post added at 15:59 ---------- Previous post was at 15:52 ----------
Hi Lyn,
I agree with you that natural distractions, such as becoming absorbed in an activity helps recovery. It gives us a reason to take our minds of ourselves. Because we are always studying ourselves, wondering how we feel.
However I think we need to be careful about how we do this, we cant feverishly look for things to occupy us, in an attempt to forget how we feel. The anxiety itself, the sympotms, the thoughts, etc are harmless, it is the fear of them which gives them energy. Its the giving importance to them that sustains them. So facing them, and seeing them as the harmless things they are is important.
Dr Weekes says that recovery isn´t the absence of the symptoms, but when we have the symptoms and we do not care, ie we totally accept them!
So don´t be afraid to have the symptoms and let yourself experience them. But in an accepting way of course. Basically be cool about having them. Its no biggy!
Cheers,
Jon
I thought mindfulness was where you try to ignore the thoughts, and instead focus on a sort of nothingness. Like try and go inbetween your thoughts.
This was what I tried to do before, I´d have anxious thoughts and then I´d try and not think them, I´d try and empty my mind. But this was giving the thoughts importantce, and attention.
Yeah this is definitely not mindfulness. That may well be the opposite of mindfulness.
Hey Pancho,
Thanks! :)
Its good to get acquainted with fear. Its just a sheep in wolf´s clothing.
Cheers,
Jon
---------- Post added at 16:03 ---------- Previous post was at 16:03 ----------
OK, thanks! :)
Hi JonJones.
My recovery started by accident, but ties in with your Theory.
I got so fed-up with the Fear and the obsessive thinking of 'Heart Attacks' and 'Dying', that one day, I just said; "Bring it on!" I was so exhausted with the Fear, Pain, Crying and my Body doing it's own thing and once I just let it ride over me, it started to get less symptoms. I know I am not cured, but 70-80 percent better and can lead an almost normal Life.
You do get familiar with the symptoms and then Anxiety throws something new in the mix. This is when it is hard, because the subconscious Mind is saying to you; "Is this Anxiety or is this something else I need to worry about?"
So, I have sorted of adopted this attitude of letting it do it's own thing no matter how scary or painful it might be.
And, I also find that the more things I have to do throughout the day, the better I am. Sitting around or just watching TV, makes my Anxiety come out even more.
Someone told me that people that get this have actually been saved and it is the Mind-Body's way of protecting you from more serious danger. (I like to think this could be true.) :shrug:
MyNameIsTerry
18-01-15, 08:25
Hi Terry,
Excuse me I wasn´t aware. I thought mindfulness was where you try to ignore the thoughts, and instead focus on a sort of nothingness. Like try and go inbetween your thoughts.
This was what I tried to do before, I´d have anxious thoughts and then I´d try and not think them, I´d try and empty my mind. But this was giving the thoughts importantce, and attention. Now I just let them come, and then they go. In fact theyve seemed to stop coming. I no longer tense up when I think them I just take a deep breath and let them come. I know that they mean nothing, so it´s fine for me that they come.
In other words Im not anxious about them, so they have lost their power.
Best,
Jon
Hi Jon,
What you first describe is a form of meditation, but I can't remember which one. Achieving emptiness by the sounds of it, and I notice you have quoted some Buddhism in the past, so it must be one of it's schools of thought.
Mindfulness is one of the schools of thought in Buddhism, although it can be found predating it, which is aimed at personal development. A lot of it's aim matches your second statement.
You practice being non judgemental towards what you are feeling & thinking, experiencing, etc just like what you are saying. This is why I wonder whether Dr Weekes took some of this into her methods which would put her well ahead of the psychology curve...which she was in her time.
There are different forms of practice which are needed to really do it properly eg meditation, object handling, movement, eating, etc. In my opinion, meditation is the starting point where you learn to use the induction (with breathing, visualisation, muscle movement when breathing, etc), how to focus, just being quiet, refocusing when the thoughts race or sensations take hold, etc.
It teaches more than acceptance because it's teaching you to learn to look at things with the appreciation you would have before your life was taken over with the worries of growing up and entering the commercialised goal driven world.
For me, I struggle with acceptance as a main strategy but to learn it within a context of a larger practice I found it fall in to place more naturally. Using it in a structured exercise also helped me, it was like relearning to do things that were normal daily processes coupled with relaxation techniques.
Different for everyone of course but both ways are worth trying in my opinion.
---------- Post added at 08:25 ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 ----------
I've tried so many times to not take notice of my thoughts and that they have no basis but to scare me. Except my mind analyses absolutely everything and adds up everything as evidence for the thoughts which makes it so hard not to believe them. If I don't catch them quickly I'm also away off in my own world. I am getting better at recognising and naming thoughts as an obsessive thought that isn't true. The most deepset thoughts, about germs and contamination, I've had them since I was 14. So my life sort of developed around it and I have so many things I have to do, and if I don't do them the worry becomes too much. So as long as I do these things then I don't worry. Although this is the core of my anxiety, the panic and gad only became disabling in the past 2 years. So at the moment I've just been working on the worst of the anxiety so I can function, and this doesn't even touch the obsessions and compulsions! Mindfulness and cbt is working well for the general anxiety, hopefully eventually I'll be able to work on the deeper issues.
I was just the same Kimberley, you've seen some of my obsessions & compulsions. I didn't think I would ever be able to walk the streets without reading every road sign, often several times over nodding to try and get it to 'stick'. My days were owned by touching so many objects in my house for no reason at all. This is gone now and I was a serious anxious wreck who was afraid of sensations so much that I struggled to wash, eat, even brush my teeth (I associated it with going to work and all the anxiety & dread that created).
So, if I can do that, someone who struggled to confront it as I didn't want further anxiety, I'm sure you can.
Its just taking you a while to find where things start falling into place but look at your driving...I bet you had a point where that seemed it wasn't ever possible.
I still have work to do, but I'm a million miles away from where I was.
I would also consider implementing Mindfulness in an exposure context which I've read is used with some forms of OCD such as Sensorimotor OCD as it's an all encompassing problem.
Hey JonJones,
Oh gosh yes, I should have said that in my post! Distraction for me isn't the same as ignoring-- it's doing something despite anxiety and basically telling it where to shove off :p For me it wasn't so much a kind of 'bring it on!' Attitude that helped, or 'well its here but that's okay', what really helped was experience. My mantra is 'well I feel a bit anxious about work today, but it doesn't matter because I've been great at work before so I know I can do it.' I guess it's a less aggressive form of the same thing? It really helps though if I know I've done something before and been okay. It's a fine line though. Sometimes I'm not sure what I'm doing is beneficial or not, but I feel 90% better and still going, so I must be doing something right! I have blips now and then (usually I end up here lol) but again, I've done it before so I know it'll be okay
MyNameIsTerry
18-01-15, 12:19
Hi Jon,
I was just thinking about acceptance and Mindfulness in relation to thinking style and I wonder whether this is a key factor? Just considering Kimberley's comments about over analysis.
I'm very analytical. It was my career for a decade to look for risk & negatives before looking for the positives. This under your skin and I suspect it played a big part in my onset of anxiety as well as it's later reinforcement. I couldn't get acceptance alone to work because my analytical nature questioned it constantly. I did find I did this less on my less anxious days though. Mindfulness however, gave me exercises to conduct & instructions to follow. I wonder whether this got analytical thought process because it too busy following these guided processes?
I further wonder this because you prefer acceptance and from reading your threads, speaking to you, etc you seem more open minded. Do you think thats the case and why you could take to it more effectively? I realise Dr Weekes methods go beyond acceptance, like Mindfulness does, so I guess there is always the possibility that the other elements created a state where acceptance became easier to employ (which I believe in my case with Mindfulness as some of the elements are more logical).
Hi Terry,
I remember when I used to be plagued by thoughts, theyd just come into my head, and I´d think them over and over, my stomach wold churn, Id get a headache, I´d feel dizzy. It was horrible.
I go over the thoughts in my head, trying to reason with them, telling myself they weren´t true. One second thinking one way then the next thinking the other way.
What I have learned and it was all down to the counsellor I found in New Zealand is that I was being bluffed by the thoughts. The thoughts themselves are just words, made from letter, put together to make sentences. Are letters scary? Do these thoughts actually have any meaning? Do they have phd´s? Do they deserve our faith and confidence?
Absolutely not!
The thoughts themselves mean absolutely nothing. What gives them the power is the emotional reaction. And the more we analyze them the more we think of the consequences they could bring then the more emotional reactions we have. Because they suddenly come as well, they catch us off guard, they sort of jump out and say ¨Bo!¨ We get a shock, we get symptoms, and then we try and debate with them, and have more emotional reactions.
The thing that concerns me about practising mindfuless is watching your emotions. My concern is that if you were to focus on your emotion maybe you´d intensify it. What I do is try and practise not being anxious about being anxious. In other words accept that the thought is in my head. And practise doing nothing about it. Once again it gets back to acceptance, or not fighting it.
Also because we feel tense this adds to it, so we must face and sag our body, get as loose as we can. Once we can accept then the anxiety itself and the obsession just dissipitate, they melt away. Because we no longer give it any significance.
Practising acceptance is simple, but it aint easy. The natural thing to do is fight. Its unpleasant how we feel , but we have to learn to be philosophical about it and accept even the unpleasantness.
Acceptance of body and mind, floating and letting things be means we stop being anxious about being anxious. The goal isnt to accept to get rid of the symptoms, because then we strive to get rid of them and this causes anxiety, the goal is to let things be, let yourself be anxious and stop being anxious about it. Practise accepting that you´ve a thron in your side, accept the discomfort of anxiety. With as much tolerability as you can, let yourself go loose in bbdy and mind. Keep practising this and youll only get better! Of this Im sure.
The problem is one minute you can accept and all is great but then you get impatient and get agitated. But we must learn to accept this too, and so keep moving forward!
I hope Ive answered your question, if not can you say it in a different way?
Best,
Jon
MyNameIsTerry
18-01-15, 22:39
Hi Jon,
With Mindfulness, if practised in meditation form, you first enter a state of relaxation so when you start noticing things, you are less tense and can work on associating this with these other unpleasant issues.
You don't focus on your anxiety, you notice it but learn to notice it from a non judgemental perspective. Over time this changes your attitude towards the elements that are causing anxiety so that you no longer fear them, accept them as processes that have previously been taken out of context, etc.
With the non meditation forms you don't even entertain anxiety, you are working on appreciation of the task in hand.
It sounds to me like your source for practicing this was incorrect so I would forget that and learn it afresh, for information alone, learning different perspectives is quite interesting.
Hi Terry,
Thanks! But to be honest I dont feel like I need any other technique. I feel like Ive found what works for me in facing, and letting be. Its taken me a long time, and Ive scared myself a lot from facing it (although I would have even more by not). But I seem to have lost a lot of my fear.
Sometimes I do feel a little surge of fear running through me, but then I think, ¨it´s ok, I´ve done this before, just face it and feel it it will pass.¨ And then I don´t freak out, I let it run it´s course. And it passes.
Its strange to descibe, its like the symptoms are school yard bullies that are all bark and no bite. If I am frightened of it I try to avoid them, but then they see that what they are doing makes me scared and this gives them power, so they try and bully me even more.
But if I stand up to them, not in a fighting way, but in a facing, come whatever way, then they see that what they are doing doesnt work, get bored and then leave. It´s not easy, as I have to discipline and remind myself not to be afraid, not to try and avoid, I keep facing till the moment passes, and it always does.
And this makes me stronger cause when it happens in the future Ive built up a memory of me having seen it through the last time etc.
I think this is the problem with accepting/Weekes method. We can accept one moment but then we feel a little overwhelmed and start trying to aviod, fight etc. We think it´s not working and then stop. But continued facing and not fghting does give results.
Cheers,
Jon
Jonjones you sound like you're doing pretty well :D and we seem to have similar coping mechanisms, with remembering we have done it before and it passes. How often do you find yourself using this? Like I can pick up on a type of anxious thought I'm having or being hypervigilant, ruminating too much and I'll use this method and it passes within seconds but this can happen maybe 3 times a day. it doesn't affect me though because I know what to do, so I barely notice it. Before I used to feel completely anxious all day long, I was just wondering how prevalent yours is now
Hi Lyn,
I have tension in my tummy area pretty much every day. Sometimes I hardly notice it and it is very slight.
At other times for eg when Im bored and have nothgin to do I tend to become a little agitated with it. The moment then may build up, and I have to practise not letting myself get overwhelmed, and let it pass over me.
One thing I learned from David Johnson, who´s help Ive been gettng, is to record moments of success in a diary. And then to review them, and think bout them often, for eg in quiet moment, such as when waiting in a queue etc.
The memories of past successes replace memories of failure and disappointment and then we change our attitude to ou suffering.
It aint easy, its a horrible thing suffering form this. But I have came so far and I have hope that I can go further. A lot of this I think its about facing your anxiety and panic aand just going for it, and then buiding yourself up. It can be exhausting, as you face your fears, but by doing it in an accepting, not fighting way, then confidence does build. I never thought I´d get to the stage I am now at.
Always remember your past successes. Its so important!
How are you?
Jon
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