venlafaxine increase side effects

[nicola1980]

Hi, I had my ven increased 8 days ago by 37.5mg so from 150mg to now 187.5mg and im not feeling any better yet infact the side effects are scaring me, im nauseas, tired, shaky, weird dreams and my anxiety has been heightened and my tummy just feels nervous all the time, I feel worse to be honest. Is this normal? And how long should it last? I'm loosing all hope XX

[nicola1980]

Forgot to say, I increased last Thursday and side effects didn't kick in until Monday?

[Pipkin]

Hi Nic,

Yep, all normal. I had the same when I increased and I know it's worse when you go over 150 as that's when the noradrenaline effects kick in. It will settle down but it takes a couple of weeks so stick with it :hugs:

Pip xxx

[nicola1980]

Thanks Pip, im really panicking as I feel dreadful XX

[Pipkin]

I know, it's horrible. You'll start to feel better soon though. Honest!

Look after yourself

P xx

[SADnomore]

Hello, Nic!
Are you managing to hang in there? Pip is right, this is the level where you will be able to take benefit from norepinephrine as well as serotonin. It might be said that this is "why" we are prescribed the venlaxafine, rather than just an ssri. Be gentle with yourself, and give it a few more days. Try not to focus on "results" just now, but at the same time, after a month on this dose, don't be afraid to do another 37.5 boost if you are not quite where you want to be. I did, and am now very happy with 225! :D

I never thought I would go up to this dose, but it was what was needed, at least this first winter of the new med. I have days now where I feel the old happiness creeping back in, a complete 180 from where I was at a year ago. Of course, touch base with your doc, but mine had told me to just adjust the dosing as I felt comfortable doing. I know when we're a bit wobbly it's difficult to imagine feeling"comfortable" with an increase, but once you get there, (and it won't be long) you will too. And the further increase was not accompanied by this kind of side effects. It's the norepinephrine threshold thing. Good luck! :hugs:

[nicola1980]

Hi thanks sad, im hanging in there by the skin of my teeth really, my anxiety is still very much heightened and I've had the most awful visible shakes today especially my hands. It's been 10 days now on the increase so hoping it settles soon, strange how the side effects didn't kick in until Monday tho....I guess it was really getting into my system then? I have had to resort to a Diazepam today, I'll keep going tho and praying it gets better XX

[pulisa]

I think you should talk to your doctor if these side effects don't settle down very soon as ven can either work very well at higher doses or not suit at all. This happened to my daughter.

I do hope that you are feeling better today but it's absolute hell to feel as you do and I hope the diazepam is giving you some relief?

[nicola1980]

Thanks pulisa, the side effects have been much more manageable today, the anxiety hasn't been as heightened so I'm hoping things are settling down...fingers crossed XX

[clio51]

Hi Nicola

Sorry to hear this have got no better and your having to up your dose. Havnt you been on 187.5 before?
It sounds like today might be your turning point! Really hope so.
You doing great ! Those symptoms are terrible and enough to knock anybody sideways so somebody with anxiety issues its twice as hard because we get the horrible thought that make us question every symptom.
Stay strong if you can manage it, and keep telling it to b.. Off as for the physical symptoms it's harder but I really hope it's the turning point now.
Take care x B

[nicola1980]

Hi Clio, yep I've took 187.5mg before and it worked well for me, i had just forgot how bad the side effects are especially when your already in a bad place as it is, it's the heightened anxiety that I can't stand, it's so frightening. Today has been a much better day...touch wood!! XX

[nicola1980]

Well its day 12 and I've had an horrendous day, literally been curled up in bed with intense panic that is overwhelming me :( I can't remember if this happened last time I increased or not? Can anyone reassure me please? XX

[pinkdove]

hi nicola, i take it your pysc increased your dose, but if it was me, i would check with her,i dont think you should be struggling like this after 12 days, and with an increase of 37.5mg, i think i said before that my gp told me to stick with the lowest dose that made me feel well.

also i think with the stress you have been under, its not surprising that you felt like you were going backwards, think about how you felt on the lower dose, and speak to your gp/pysc, and tell them how bad you feel, you dont have to suffer to the extent that you are curled up in bed with panic

really hope you feel better soon hun, take care xx

[nicola1980]

Hi pink, i wasn't coping on The lower dose when physc dropped it from 187.5mg to 150mg when I was pregnant so after my miscarriage she has increased it back to my original dose which I was stable on before so I'm not sure what to do? Is this normal side effects of not? Or the increase not agreeing with me? I'm so confused XX

---------- Post added at 06:32 ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 ----------

Forgot to say I was in a pretty bad way before she increased me, the anxiety and panic was dreadful then XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Nicola,

I know how you feel, I went through this with Duloxetine. I've read about the difference between the 2 and Duloxetine hits its norepinephine dose quicker so you start on 30mg (which was ok, usual SSRI side effects) and then I went up to 60mg and my anxiety went through the roof. The worst 8-10 days of my life. I would wake with 1.5hrs of chest bursting adrenaline rushes and then it would be hours of strange after affects of adrenaline where you feel like everything is tight still and I really struggled to just sit down for hours after that. It was truly horrible and far worse than what I experienced going onto Citalopram which was calmed down with sleep courtesy of Zopiclone.

I had Diazepam but I was determined not to take any this time and just go straight onto the SNRI. When I increased to 60mg, I gave in and had to have 1 2mg Diazepam upon waking for the last 2 days of this. This did help a fair bit.

Once day the last day of these side effects hit, it completely changed over night but it did leave me a worse mess than when I had gone to my GP. I had the same issue with Citalopram though.

If you anxiety had increased prior to commencing the new dose, it could be possible that it is doing its normal increase of anxiety issue on top of what was already an unstable situation thus making it worse.

You are probably sensitive to adrenaline issue as not everyone seems to go through this type of thing. I know people who are on the same as me who didn't struggle and others who couldn't even tolerate the tapering dose!

Was it this bad last time?

You mentioned it took 4 days before the side effects started so I would consider this day 8. Based on this, it could be that its due to end soon and it might be worth holding out otherwise if it had been a full 12 days of this I would be less sure.

I just struggled through, I didn't see any other choice as it would have mean tapering off again and struggling to go on something else and I had only just started meds again.

Avoid caffeine at the moment. Caffeine has an effect on something else in your body that has a knock on effect of allowing more norepinephrine to be released and available and thats the last thing you need at the moment.

Exercise burns off adrenaline. I didn't try this as I was a complete mess but if you can, I would advise it as this and deep breathing are the things that cause adrenaline to be burnt off. So, try some deep breathing exercises as well. Even after an adrenaline spike, all the residual feeling is the adrenaline that is waiting to be metabolised and exercise will force this to happen. So, maybe some exercise a few times a day could help but I haven't tried this.

Drink fluids too as some adrenaline is excreted that way.

[nicola1980]

Hi terry, thankyou so much for replying, when I first increased it this time I was fine for the first 5 days and then the anxiety hit me like a ton of bricks, this was last Monday and I've been struggling ever since, I've had odd glimpses of relief like the weekend the anxiety wasn't so bad but yesterday it was horrendous again. When I was on this dose previously I honestly can't remember how it effected me as it was 2 years ago but I was stable on the 187.5mg until my physc lowered it to 150mg because I became pregnant unfortunately I suffered a miscarriage and went dramatically downhill hence being increased again. Today isn't as bad anxiety wise as yesterday but I'm still very panicky. Venlafaxine was the only AD that worked for me as others failed so I'm really loosing hope at the min and feeling very scared. Do you think this is normal side effects that will settle? Or should I try and get in touch with my physc which isn't easy and I doubt she could me. Thankyou for replying XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Really sorry to hear about the miscarriage, that must have really rocked you on top of the reduction.

I think you would have remembered it if it was this bad last time, whilst I can't remember exactly how it felt, its not something I will be forgetting as it was the worst anxiety I have ever felt by a fair way.

Mine was constant and it was the following morning from taking the increase but it is a different style of SNRI that is used more for the dual effect whereas yours is often used as a SSRI until you go this high from what others have said on threads. So, its got a slightly different method of action and because of that, I'm not sure about that delay and the better period inbetween.

It does sound like the typical overload we get when commencing them until your system resolves it, its just most of us are used to the serotonin being increased as opposed to both so its a different thing to go through and I know I suffered side effects that were in the less common range eg adrenaline rushes.

Since you've been on it before to this dosage, part of me thinks its worth keeping going because of the max 8 days so far but I don't think you should leave it long if you do because I know mine became unbearable and wouldn't want anyone to go through that so if you can't bare it, make contact. If you can bare it, maybe it will settle very very soon. Its hard to say and its really your call as only you know how it feels.

I can only say that based on my SNRI, going up to the norepinephrine dose did make me feel like this for about 8-10 days and it was every single day but it did get worse after the first few days. After that it was probably my frustration that made it even worse as it was a horrible experience.

I'm just wondering whether your anxiety has been increased prior due to the reduction and by increasing again, it could easily be adding to that anxiety giving a cumulative effect of much worse anxiety until it passes.

Has anyone else on here had this? Marie (SADNoMore), you seem to know loads about this one so do you know about this?

[nicola1980]

Thanks Terry, when I first started venlafaxine I was in a very bad place and I seem to have erased that from my memory for some reason? At one point I begged to be put in hospital I felt so bad, I had to go and live back at my parents as some days I couldn't get out of bed, whereas I know I'm not that bad now this anxiety is scaring me but to be honest I was in a very bad way before I increased back up, i didn't cope very well on the 150mg at all and then after my miscarriage I just went dramatically downhill. Thankyou for your advice I really appreciate it, im going to try and stick it out a few more days XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

You're not alone there Nicola, I've had my days where I thought I might be better in hospital but they do pass. My anxiety hit at the point of looking around for houses and ever since I've stayed at home because I dreaded being on benefits with nothing and debts piling up and now I've been out of work a while, I'm just in limbo until I find my way to better times (although I am much better than back a couple of years ago).

I suffer constant spikes & mood swings that come about every 7 days. Even now when it starts up all those negative thoughts and feelings hit me. It only last a few days but I did have a rough time just after Christmas and I was suffering adrenaline rushes again which I haven't had for years really (maybe the one one hear & there but not consistent like when I upped the dose) and this really worried me because it made me feel like I was going backwards. So, right now its only nature for you to feel perhaps worse because you have taken a bit of a backward step and then there was a traumatic event which would upset anyone so that is going to be magnified in your situation but at the same time it will also magnify your own issues. So, remember that its just a current state, things have been far worse but they have also been better and hang onto the fact that you have had a couple of better days inbetween and hopefully it will break very soon and you can go back to recovering.

Is there any techniques that have helped you with anxiety? Relaxation, CBT exercises like Thought Records to counteract statements, all that kind of stuff. I know relaxation is really really hard when you go through this because its like your anxiety is not within your control due to this artificial effect from the meds so if you can't sit & relax, turn to exercise and see if it burns if off a bit to allow you to do the rest. Even gentle exercise.

And keep hydrated as it will help your body excrete some of it.

[nicola1980]

Thanks Terry, so sorry to hear you've gone thro a rough time also, it's absolutely horrendous feeling like this, I've got a child to look after too so it's a real struggle, infact I had to cancel his parents evening last night as the thought of going sent me into a state of panic. I'm just hoping and praying this passes really soon, unfortunately I had to resort to Diazepam yesterday and think I will today aswell. I try to do my relaxation but it's so hard when your in such a heightened stage of anxiety, im currently on the waiting list for CBT but could take a while. It's so frustrating when prior to all that's happened I was doing so well and living a practically 'normal' life, now all that fear is back. I've just managed to go to the shop which is a small step I guess as yesterday I couldn't leave my house. I'll give it a few more days and see how I get on. Thankyou so much for taking the time to reply to me XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Its still a step though and they add up so its important to keep doing them.

I can understand you feel bad about missing out on the parents evening. Think of it like a physical illness though, that would stop you going and you would still feel a bit guilty & annoyed but would very easily accept that its not practical to attend. Mental illness needs to be no different in that respect because its not that you are dealing with a goal here, you are dealing with an unexpected medication issue and think of it just in terms of medication because if you had side effects from any non mental health medication and were throwing up all day...you wouldn't go and that would be just the way it is in anyones eyes.

I don't know how any of that works thesedays but maybe if your child has a form tutor or something, you can chase this up in a bit when this passes?

Don't feel bad about the Diazepam, thats why they give it out to people starting on SSRI/SNRI's anyway. You hang out as long as you can and then you just need some respite. Its impossible to understand how 24 7 constant higher adrenaline feels, its puts anyone on their knees in desperation eventually.

Yeah, I found relaxation impossible back then. I often couldn't understand how I was managing to sleep given how wired I was all day. I found Duloxetine didn't cause me any issues there and in fact, I slept pretty well.

If nothing is working, try distraction techniques, the ones that are more for panic attacks eg concentrate on an objectr very intently for a least a few minutes. Things like that.

Try and follow a guided breathing exercise of some kind. Something which asks you to monitor your chest moving, as it can be distracting due to the focussing.

I really don't know what to suggest other than things like this because I remember nothing worked for me but I was also afraid of trying things for making it worse. If you haven't retreated so far, trying some of these things could help.

Take care.

[nicola1980]

I've just spoke to the crisis team who said my heightened anxiety could well be a side effect from the increase which should hopefully pass, they said to give it a few more days then to ring my physc's secretary if I'm no better........I'm so confused, this is unbearable xx

[pulisa]

I really feel for you and can fully appreciate how you must be terrified.

In my opinion your psych's office has just fobbed you off. You need relief from this severe agitation and cannot possibly get anywhere until your nervous system has calmed down to a point where you can use self-help measures.

Can you see a GP or speak to a duty psych tonight or at least first thing tomorrow? I honestly think that you need more help than just a wait it out attitude. Each minute can seem like an age in this state, can't it?

[nicola1980]

Yes Pulisa it certainly can, unfortunately my Gp is on leave this week otherwise I would go to see him, i think I am going to ring my physc's secretary in the morning, tomorrow it will be 2 weeks since I increased and it's honestly unbearable at the moment altho at the moment the anxiety has calmed down alot, I've took 2mg of Diazepam this morning but to be honest it didn't touch me, i really had to try hard and not beg my husband to not go to work tonight and leave me on me own I felt that terrified by the extent of my anxiety. It doesn't help that my mums on holiday for 2 weeks and she's usually the one I turn to when I'm in a high state of anxiety, she's like my safe person so I'm missing her terribly which isn't helping I guess XX

---------- Post added at 21:32 ---------- Previous post was at 21:28 ----------

The only hope I've got is that this dose worked for me last time and I was stable so I'm literally clinging onto that and praying it does again XX

[pulisa]

I really hope it does but I think you are suffering excessively. Maybe you feel really vulnerable and frightened as you have just endured a loss with your miscarriage and also your Mum is not available just when you need her most (not that I'm blaming her for being away).

You've been through a huge ordeal and must be grieving? Just maybe all the sadness and anger at your loss is manifesting itself in this awful agitation? Whether it's from side effects of the ven increase or from life circumstances you need help and relief sooner rather than later in my opinion. Can your partner be with you tomorrow to help you access help?

[nicola1980]

Thanks Pulisa, the miscarriage was very traumatic for both me and my husband and I realise I'm grieving too for my lost baby so that won't be helping my anxiety at all either, the strange thing was whilst I was experiencing my miscarriage which was very lengthy and drawn out I coped amazingly with no anxiety at all which shocked me but I was very numb at the time and literally going thro the motions. My husband works nights so will be around at home all day tomorrow. Thankyou for taking your time to reply to me, i really appreciate it XX

[pulisa]

We all tend to cope with trauma on auto pilot at the time but it always catches up with us in one shape or form. I'm glad your husband is going to be with you during the day and I'm sure his presence alone will give you a sense of safety. It's just so awful going through this and you wonder how on earth you will get through it...but you will. I do think you should see a medic though just to assess you. Ven is a very powerful drug and you shouldn't be feeling as you do and not seeking help and advice in my opinion. Especially after suffering a miscarriage so recently xx

[MyNameIsTerry]

I know what you mean about moments feeling like a lifetime when you are struggling with the side effects. I was struggling from the second I woke up to very close to bedtime and when I woke up and felt the side effects kick straight in (adrenaline rushes) I felt myself falling apart as I just couldn't take it anymore. The last 2 days, I had the Diazepam. I resulted taking Zopiclone which I viewed as an accomplishment but my SNRI wasn't causing insomnia thankfully or things would have been much worse.

How are you feeling now Nicola?

Part of me agrees with the Crisis Team but only because of my own experience with a norepinephrine based medication. I know they say its 30 days for the side effect window but this has always been for the general side effects and I found my anxiety was too extreme but I think that the short window I had (8-10 days) must be connected to that so that in someone else, the increased anxiety may be less severe but over a longer period.

If it is still happening, then maybe they can recommend something to calm it down. Other than that, they may consider whether you are still suited to this medication and hopefully you can avoid that discussion.

[nicola1980]

Hi, im still struggling but wed and last night I felt alot calmer so is that progress? I'm not as panicky this morning just feel odd if you understand that? I've decided to give it until Monday then I will ring my physc's secretary if I'm no better and go and see my own Gp who will be back from leave, I have taken Diazepam the last few days...I thought bugger it I need some respite and help but to be honest 2mg doesn't do an awful lot, maybe takes the edge off only slightly XX

[nicola1980]

Well I phoned my physc's secretary but physc not in until Monday so she transfered me onto a cpn who said it's def the increase in ven causing my heightened anxiety and apparently this is is normal and what happens before you start to level out, she's told me to take Diazepam to help and give another 4-5 days, it did reassure me a bit but doesn't stop me feeling like utter shite!! XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Thats the problem with these meds Nicola, there is a fair bit of guesswork involved.

I think there has to come a point where it becomes a matter that the side effects are unusual and at that point its either going to be a reduction or moving to another. Thats the reality of it I guess and the way I looked at it when it was driving me mad was that if I stuck it out a little bit longer, at least I don't have to take a chance on something (and any side effects that brings).

The fact you are having some better periods is good. Mine was just non stop but far worse earlier in the day which matches my pattern of anxiety anyway. I know that Ven is less intense per mg compared to Duloxetine so maybe that explains why mine was constant but quick and yours is less constant but taking a bit longer?

If it just doesn't stop, then there is an issue to make a decision on but you are not there yet and still have a chance this will break and you can get back to where you were before on this dose. The increased anxiety and recent trauma will certainly make you more conscious of things on top of it all as well and this tends to feed the cycle (I'm not saying you could deal with that in a CBT way because I think when we go through this, its often beyond that rational method and we need it to calm down first).

Since my most distressing side effect occurred upon waking for 2 hours, I found Diazepam would mitigate that a fair bit and I wasn't left with as much residual anxiety afterwards. If you can identify when its at its worst, use the Diazepam to get through that if needed and if you feel able to, go without at other times.

[pulisa]

Excellent advice from Terry as usual. My only concern would be that ven is an absolute nightmare to get off so you don't want to be taking too high a dose if this is not suiting you. I think prolonged side effects from a dose increase with no reasonable benefit is unacceptable. Most doctors are completely unaware of how difficult ven is to manage and they whack the dose up thinking it will be easy to cut back if any problems occur.

I hope things settle down for you really soon, Nicola.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I agree pulisa. I've always resisted increases because I was concerned about the withdrawal issue, especially if you have to switch meds which must be a horrible situation for a month or two.

An example of this can be seen on the Pregabalin board where Avasmummy has been struggling badly and now her dose has been slightly reduced, she is experiencing less issues.

If increasing doesn't work, maybe combining would help as thats what she is trying next and I've seen people say it works for them on other threads.

I often wonder about the suitability of GP's in prescribing any of these meds. My GP told me once that he won't go behind standard doses without a referral to a specialist which he won't do for me for therapy (I would have to kick him for that but I've decided to go elsewhere for things thesedays) so he would be blocking changes to medication. Silly situation and only serves to prove the inexperience of an experienced GP!

I hate all this guinea pig stuff, they have no clue how badly this spikes it all. Roll on the electrostimulus treatments that are in research!

[pmrob1]

Hello people just looking for some advice. I had to start taking venlafaxine for anxiety on the 12th January. The initial dose was 75mg but when I went back to the gp's on Wed he thought it was best to increase the dose to 150mg per day. I have hardly been sleeping since starting on the venlafaxine is this likely to subside in time. Also I have been advised by a friend who is a mental health nurse that I should be taking the meds in a morning. Do people agree with that?

[nicola1980]

Hi i would recommend you take your venlafaxine in the morning if your on the slow release tablets as they can interfere with your sleep. Hope you coping ok on them XX

---------- Post added at 08:48 ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 ----------

Well yesterday my anxiety was unbearable again, I just didn't know what to do with myself so I phoned my out of hours doctor and 3 hours later a Gp called me back!! I was quite surprised he knew alot about ven as many Gps don't but he said it is def the increase causing my heightened anxiety and it's very typical of ven to cause this, he said so many people throw the towel in after 2 weeks as they just can't cope with all the side effects especially the heightened anxiety, he said he sees all his patients he starts or increases meds on in 2 weeks to check their managing the side effects ok. He told me to try and hang on in there for a bit longer if I can and all side effects usually diminish before 4 week's!! XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Yeah, NICE actually have this in their guidance for treating depression:

1.5.2.4 When prescribing drugs other than SSRIs, take the following into account:

The increased likelihood of the person stopping treatment because of side effects (and the consequent need to increase the dose gradually) with venlafaxine, duloxetine and TCAs.

That says to me that the side effects can be worse which must be due to the norepinephrine issue.

I don't think you would be looking at the normal 4 week side effect window on a dosage increase, I thought the 4 weeks was normally when you first start? Side effects are expected but I would have thought to a lower level as compared to a fresh start on them.

Part of me wonders whether its because of the norepinephrine element and that your system needs to adjust to it again as opposed to the increase serotonin element but I would really hope it to be a shorter side effect window.

I really feel for you Nicola and I wish I could help because I remember when I went through this, I never want to feel like that again. I just held on to the the fact it would break but it was an unbearable experience.

[nicola1980]

Thanks Terry im sure it's because the norepinephrine has kicked in as I've now gone over 150mg, the doctor told me when you increase you basically start from scratch again with these meds that's why the side effects can be so severe. I'm literally hanging in there by the skin of my teeth at the min altho again last night I felt alot calmer and I was suffering awful chest pains due to panic before I increased which was so bad I was convinced I was having a heart attack and they have gone and I've not had a full blown panic attack since the increase either so are they good points? It's just this constant unbearable anxiety that doesn't seem to ease off until about 7pm...well it has for the last few nights anyway!! XX

[pmrob1]

Hello friends I was initially prescribed the 75mg slow release as two doses one in a morning and one in the evening. I have since been told by my friend who is a mental health nurse to take both doses in the morning as it is like taking 1 150mg dose. I have now done this for two days and it initially makes me feel quite sick and very shaky but by dinner time the sickness and shaking wears off. Just waiting for my sleep to improve and then hopefully on the long road to recovery. I hope that everyone has a good week and will be checking in over the next few weeks.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I think there is an old saying that works for some of this "one pain lessens another". I have times where I notice my anxiety increases and my sciatica seems to disappear. I wonder whether its because of how our minds are using so much focus on the greater perceived threat or issue?

So, maybe this current problem has snapped you out of the other one. That doesn't mean that when the side effects subside, the old problem comes back. Besides, sometimes a break in symptoms can mean they go because our brain has broken the connection as it kills off old connections in time if we don't use them.

It could be that the medication is in some way working to resolve that problem though.

Can you get some exercise to see if it lessens it? Its all due to the increased adrenaline in your system so it might help it metabolise. I know its hard and it might not do much or anything with it being an artificial issue but it might be worth a try if you can do something gentle, even some walking around your house for a bit.

I know what you mean, I would struggle to sit down for about 6 hours. I would be standing around in the kitchen watching TV from the doorway or watching the birds in my back garden because I just didn't want to sit down as I found it harder being scrunched up on a settee and I found the symptoms always worsened when I stopped.

It was a horrible experience and part of me wished my GP would be given some of them so he could see how difficult it is so he appreciated that being told its just side effects and they will go was not very helpful and maybe he would think about it a bit more before shouting "Next!".

pmrob1 - the nausea thing is pretty standard on antidepressants. I've always found I get this for a couple of days and then it moves onto different symptoms. When I started Duloxetine, I was sitting in the bathroom within 20 minutes for about half an hour. It was the same with Citalopram. No one ever told me about SSRI's and I wasn't on here (solely worked with my GP) and was taking Citalopram in the evening which resulted in a lot of insomnia, a referral to the crisis team and Zopiclone to counteract the issue. I wish I was on here back then! Sleep was fine on Duloxetine strangely despite taking in the evening and if anything I slept better! Hope you have a good week and get some decent sleep...its so important when going through all this.

[pmrob1]

thanks for the reply terry i hope the side effects dissipate soon as they are not very nice hopefully the insomnia will sort its self out over the next few weeks.

[nicola1980]

Well I hope I'm not talking too soon but the anxiety has lessened quite alot, it's still there but bearable and not intolerable like it has been, I've even managed to go out with my husband and do a big food shop which I certainly couldn't have done yesterday!! I'm just enjoying it whilst it lasts!! XX

[pulisa]

Glad to hear that things are better. Just don't try and take on too much! It's amazing how good it feels when agitation abates a bit, isn't it?!

[nicola1980]

Its lovely Pulisa to just not have that severe agitation and intense anxiety, im actually managing to just sit and chill out for a bit rather than my usual state of being curled up with fear in bed, im not counting my chickens yet but its progress xx

[spawn]

Well done Nic, hang in there! :bighug1: x

[nicola1980]

Thanks Gav :hugs: you know how bad I was struggling beforehand so you'll understand my need of having the ven increased but my life I've never known side effects like it especially the heightened anxiety :ohmy: I honestly don't quite believe I've come this fair apart from the hope that they worked at this strength before! As you can see I'm still not sleeping great but I can cope with that aslong as I haven't got the wall climbing anxiety and sheer terror which at the min I haven't so I'm sat here having a cup of tea (decaf) and a fag :blush: let's hope it lasts! Hope your keeping well :hugs: XX

[pmrob1]

Well on day 5 of my increase of the dosage from 75mg to 150mg still sleeping very poorly probably two hours a night very nervous and feeling sick in the morning for about 4 or 5hrs after taking my tablets. Hopefully the side effects will begin to subside in the next few days and i can start getting my life back together after my partner left me two weeks ago and my brother is dying of bowel cancer.
Cant remember such bad side effects when i was originally on this drug but i was tapering from mirtazapine so probably didnt notice them.
hope other peeps are doing ok and living life to the full

[nicola1980]

Well I hope I'm not talking too soon but I've had a much better day, hardly any anxiety at all, I can't begin to tell you the relief that that feels after the past few weeks, don't get me wrong I've still got a long way to go but it's so lovely to have some respite and to actually feel like there is hope out there, i feel alot more optimistic, I'd like to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for all the support and help you've given it, you may not realise it but it has helped me tremendously so thankyou :bighug1: XX

---------- Post added at 21:27 ---------- Previous post was at 21:22 ----------

Hi rob, that's quite a big jump so well done, the nausea does pass, try and take your ven after having something quite substantial to eat, i found that helped alot but my tummy now still feels a bit unsettled at nearly 3 weeks into my increase but I know eventually it will pass, i try to eat little and often as I find that helps. The side effects can be scary...I mean you only have to read this thread of mine to know that but hang on in there.
I'm so sorry to hear about your partner leaving you and your brother, bless you you really are having an awful time, the meds obviously won't take the pain your feeling away but they should help you beable to deal with things better, i am truly sorry :hugs: XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

I think it has broken Nicola.

You had better days in between so do you feel like that our much better? If the answer is the latter, I think you've passed the side effects windrow.

I was the same, it was a big relief when the intensity just stopped. The anxiety during that period was like nothing I had experienced and before that I was struggling with basic daily chores.

[nicola1980]

Hi Terry, I feel much better so, since Sunday afternoon the anxiety has lessened immensely to the point I can now function and not just lay in bed unable to do anything, don't get me wrong im still a bit shaky but that anxiety I was feeling before was something I'd never experienced and I really don't want to again, it frightened the life out of me, last week I could barely shower or brush my teeth yet yesterday I went out on my own...doesn't sound much but compared to how I've been that was a huge step for me. Yesterday i was able to make important phonecalls that needed dealing with asap whereas last week the sheer thought of it sent me into a fright. It'll be 3 weeks on Thursday since my increase so hopefully things will carry on slowly improving allowing me to beable to help myself aswell XX

[pmrob1]

congratulations nicola on the steps forward that you have made. Quick question do you or anyone else experienced,if you increase your dosage, feeling more shaky and nervous more so in the morning? as i previously have said i have increased from 75mg to 150mg for the last 6 days and feel particularly shakey and nervous in the morning but as the day goes on it seems to dissipate. hope every one has a better day than yesterday:wacko:

[clio51]

Well done Nic, you sound very positive now let's hope it's the break you need! You've done fantastic going through those feeling there bloody horrendous!! Everyday you can't seem to see an end to them, you want the day to past only to get up to another day of them sound like there subsiding now don't they
Out on your own wow!
Does your brain not chat to you(I sound bloody mental) no reading that back!!
I just hate it when anxiety is high and it gives us all those nasty symptoms, I've been churned up today! And it gives me a sickly feeling where I have to push myself to eat. First thought was I don't feel good,and then suddenly feel really tired! then more bloody thought even at the back of my head trying to push its way through to send me over the edge again. That's my worse thing when I get the thoughts switching them off and getting on, I just feel I just want to be home and sit there and wait for them to go. I try to continue but the thoughts are strong hence giving more bloody symptoms!!! Vicious circle. The things I've now/learnt go out the window for some reason and I seem to just focus on me and become uninterested in anything like tv talking etc.

X

[nicola1980]

Argh...I spoke to soon...After 2 fairly good days I've come down to earth with a bump this afternoon :( anxiety reared it's ugly head again, my tummy feels very nervous too, sort of a sickly feeling, I managed to make pancakes with my son tho but struggled to eat any, I've felt very shivery too so not sure what's happening but I don't like it XX

[clio51]

I get that Nic, when I'm anxious(sometimes I don't even know why) I can get freezing cold even with heating set at 21* I get a hot water bottle or have a bath to warm my body through I'm usually ok then:)
I didn't really eat my tea too churned up but now eating toast and camomile tea oh and I've had 2 mg diazepam (knocked it on its head before it took mega hold) x

[pulisa]

It could just be a virus? Sorry that you've had a rough day but there may be a simple explanation for your symptoms which is not mental health-related? Only time will tell but if the agitation does come back and you haven't got any sort of bug then I really would question whether the increased ven is actually benefitting you in which case you should seek medical advice asap.

I really hope that you feel better all round in the morning

[nicola1980]

It just sort of came on this afternoon, it's not even been 3 weeks on my increase yet but I'm feeling more positive as I have had a good 2 days running and I know recovery is a bumpy road...I've been down it many times before! Don't blame you for taking the Diazepam Clio, i can take 1 2mg a day at the min under physc's instructions so I took half earlier and I'll take half before I go to bed. I've just been so cold tho even with my heating on full but nerves effect us in strange ways don't they? I'm sure I'll pick up next week when my mums back from her holiday as I'm really missing her... sounds daft doesn't it from a 34 year old woman with a family of my own but I see my mum as my safe person. Oh well let's see what tomorrow brings XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Is it as bad as it was before though? If not, I would think it's not side effects as I found that the adrenaline issue was pretty constant and like nothing elso I had felt.

Feeling cold could be due to adrenaline as can feeling sick but it could easily be something else as Pulisa said so see how it goes.

[pmrob1]

After 6 days on the higher dose of 150mg my doctor has told me to drop back down to 75mg to see if it will help with the insomnia.Took my first tablet this morning but its a different generic than what ive been on for the last 3 weeks. feeling nauseous and a bit shaky. What do people eat when taking there meds? does this help with any sickness. Has anyone else dropped back down after such a short period on the higher dose? Hope everyone has a better day than yesterday

[nicola1980]

Well I've had a terrible day, spent most of it curled up in bed again, I called my physc's secretary but physc not in until Monday now so I phoned the crisis team who said it is the increase heightening it still and then started going on about distraction and mindfulness etc which at the min to be honest I can't even think of as I just want this anxiety to stop so I got an appointment tonight to see my Gp who was at a bit of a loss at what to do to be honest, he asked if I wanted to lower my ven again but I wasn't coping before so...? anyway he's prescribed me 2mg of Diazepam 3 x a day until I see physc next Thursday, i feel absolutely petrified again today and really don't know what to do XX

---------- Post added at 18:41 ---------- Previous post was at 18:29 ----------

Hi rob, i only manage to eat a biscuit when I take my ven as I can't stomach food in the morning but its prob not enough really as I've been feeling nauseas, hope you manage the decrease ok, you should be ok as you've not been on it that long so I wouldn't imagine you'd get much if any withdrawals. I'm very shaky too which I think is just side effects so it should wear off for you soon XX

[pulisa]

Honestly, to suggest mindfulness and distraction in your current state just goes to show that they are fobbing you off with standard "calm down and have a bath" stuff and don't have a clue as to how impossible that would be for you to attempt.

Having been in your situation (and hospitalised) as a result of starting seroxat I was given high daily doses of diazepam for a week (no more) and that took the edge off and made things bearable. I think you should take the prescribed diazepam regularly (it's a small dose) just to help you through to your psych appointment but get back to the GP before the weekend if this doesn't alleviate some of the agitation.

I don't think it's right to have to take medication to deal with the side effects of another medication. I hope your psych can help you next week and hopefully you will feel calmer by then..

Very best wishes xx

[MyNameIsTerry]

I agree with Pulisa (as always! )

Mindfulness is a 'skill' so unless you are already proficient in it, it won't help at all since it can take weeks if not months to really feel it. That just shows they don't understand Mindfulness either! They must think it's a relaxation technique!

Distraction is very hard when you are like this. The only way that even helped me a little was in using the concentration methods eg concentrate really hard on an object for a few minutes minimum. I used that before the meds and I don't know if it would have done anything when the artificial situation of the side effects happened to me. I was barely hanging on to get through the day praying it would just end, somehow!

Taking meds to get through meds is wrong in my opinion but not from the patients point of view, from the medical world's. If you need then right now, take them, even short respite can help your sanity during this stage.

[clio51]

Or Nic sorry your having a bad day again!! One step forward two back!
You done great to get yourself out to the doctors So well done getting there.

I agree you shouldn't have to take another med to get rid of SE of another med, but the way some of these AD affect us is so frightening and you couldn't possibly understand unless you have been through it. So it's a good job there are things like Diazepam so if you need it take it! It won't be for long now and when those symptoms are not as intense it lifts you and you start to feel calmer and able to relax more.

I also think crisis team havnt a bloody clue sometime, how on earth are you suppose to JUST relax(if only) concentrate on something,read etc in a state of high anxiety your lucky if you can sit still!

Big hugs Nic hope tomorrow is a better day:bighug1::bighug1:

[Dan1975]

Hi Nic,

Forgive me for saying, but it seems as though you think meds are the answer to your problem. They will help for sure, but you have to change too if you ever want to recover. Instead of running to the doctor or crisis team every time you feel awful, you need to open up to your feelings and let them in. The anxiety condition is born out of our unwillingness to accept these feelings and us suffers are constantly looking for solutions to try and make it go away.

I would suggest you read at last a life by Paul david. A great book that will help you drop this struggle and just relax into your anxiety. I think this will really help you. It did me.

I'm sure you are struggling with the meds a bit, but I bet you are amplifying many of the unpleasant feelings by strurging against them.

Please try this.

Dan

[nicola1980]

I def don't think that meds are the answer at all but when you are literally paralysed by this intense fear of anxiety their is literally no way of helping yourself because believe me I have tried. I have ran as you say to the crisis team and my Gp as I am literally not functioning, i have a child to look after for goodness sake. I don't find your comment helpful at all infact I find it quite upsetting. Do you really think I want to live my life like this? No. I've been through a very traumatic experience the past few months and I'm tryingmy hardest to keep my head above water.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Nic,

Forgive me for saying, but it seems as though you think meds are the answer to your problem. They will help for sure, but you have to change too if you ever want to recover. Instead of running to the doctor or crisis team every time you feel awful, you need to open up to your feelings and let them in. The anxiety condition is born out of our unwillingness to accept these feelings and us suffers are constantly looking for solutions to try and make it go away.

I would suggest you read at last a life by Paul david. A great book that will help you drop this struggle and just relax into your anxiety. I think this will really help you. It did me.

I'm sure you are struggling with the meds a bit, but I bet you are amplifying many of the unpleasant feelings by strurging against them.

Please try this.

Dan

Dan,

I'm not sure you have read the whole thread as it explains this.

Nicola decreased her dose due to pregnancy so its restoring it now anyway. She suffered a miscarriage which is bound to cause further anxiety and definitely symptoms of depression but now she can at last restore her dosage level. She may not have even been ready to reduce but was given little option due to pregnancy which is often the case on anti depressants so it makes it even harder for women as that decrease could cause a return in underlying anxiety levels.

Her current problem comes not from her anxiety but from the side effects of a norepinephrine medication and they will disappear on their own. My anxiety was greatly increased over night and once the side effects finished I got up and didn't feel the same. That's not a reflection of an anxiety disorder, its a chemically induced state.

Your own anxiety will add to it but it's minor by comparison which you will notice with the peak of this and the sudden drop.

The advice is to contact doctors if you experience problems with there things. I know on mine, the adrenaline rushes are a less common side effect although I didn't contact my GP because he is useless over medication as he only thinks they cause loose bowels and sweating! The first time I was on Citalopram and suffered side effects that I now know are common, back then I knew nothing about all this stuff and just blindly accepted my GP's advice, he actually called the crisis team! The outcome was to tackle the insomnia with hypnotics... he should have been able to resolve that on his own!

[Dan1975]

Dan,

I'm not sure you have read the whole thread as it explains this.

Nicola decreased her dose due to pregnancy so sure it's only restoring it now anyway. She suffered a miscarriage which is bound to further anxiety and definitely symptoms of depression but now she can at last restore her dosage level. She may not have even been ready to reduce bit was given little option due to pregnancy which is often the case on anti depressants so if makes it even harder for women as that decrease could cause a return in underlying anxiety levels.

Her current problem comes not from her anxiety but from the side effects of a norepinephrine medication and they will disappear on their own. My anxiety was greatly increased over night and one the side effects finished and got up and didn't feel the same. That's not a reflection of an anxiety disorder, its a chemically induceinduced state.

Your own anxiety will add to it but it's minor by comparison which you will notice with the peak of this and the sudden drop.

No I haven't read the whole thing, so I apologise if I got the wrong end of the stick. Just trying to help.

Why is Nic on Ven?

[MyNameIsTerry]

As I understand it, SSRI's haven't worked for her but this has.

I'm sure she will be able to follow what you said once she gets past this part Dan, she's just going through what some of us do on SNRI's which is why NICE advise doctors to beware the greater side effects they can bring.

It's the usual medication lottery with what does and doesn't work isn't it.

[nicola1980]

Dan I have been on ven for nearly 3 years, stable on the dose of 187.5mg, this was lowered to 150mg when I found out I was pregnant but sadly I suffered a miscarriage which was very traumatic for me. I was increased back up to 187.5mg 3 weeks ago today as I was struggling to cope.

[Dan1975]

Dan I have been on ven for nearly 3 years, stable on the dose of 187.5mg, this was lowered to 150mg when I found out I was pregnant but sadly I suffered a miscarriage which was very traumatic for me. I was increased back up to 187.5mg 3 weeks ago today as I was struggling to cope.

Hi Nic,

Please don't take what I said the wrong way. I am trying to help.

So you have anxiety yes?

Dan

[nicola1980]

Yes but I was stable until after my miscarriage but since my ven has been increased again it has escalated to very intense even worse than before, i have many self help techniques but at the moment the anxiety is at a level where I simply can't implement these.

[Dan1975]

Yes but I was stable until after my miscarriage but since my ven has been increased again it has escalated to very intense even worse than before, i have many self help techniques but at the moment the anxiety is at a level where I simply can't implement these.

Ok I understand. Have you tried just sitting there and letting it wash over you? i.e. Not fighting it at all. All I'm saying is, you might be making it 10 times worse by struggling against it. Just a suggestion.

[Pipkin]

Ok I understand. Have you tried just sitting there and letting it wash over you? i.e. Not fighting it at all. All I'm saying is, you might be making it 10 times worse by struggling against it. Just a suggestion.

You're right to mention this Dan but, as you'll remember, it's incredibly hard to do when you're in the throws of panic. I always think of it in terms of 3 stages which you have to take with a steady and measured approach:

Short term - deal with the crippling symptoms, often with the help of medication
Medium term - continue with what is working and start to make sense of what your triggers are and how your mind reacts
Long term - accept that this is who you are and realise that anxiety cannot hurt you or hold you back. This is the flowing over you part you're describing and it often takes years with some people never getting there

Nic - hang in there. You've done it before which means you will again. I really feel for you as I know what it feels like. We're all here to help :hugs:

Pip x

[pulisa]

I know Dan was only trying to help but this type of agitation is unbearable and self-help measures are out of the question. Maybe when things are a bit calmer...It's not easy to imagine agitation like this if you've never experienced it.

How are you Nic?

[nicola1980]

I'm hanging in there just, im feeling calmer tonight and the Diazepam is taking the edge off, still spent alot of the day in bed but it may sound strange but I feel safe there, i took 2mg of Diazepam at lunchtime and managed to doze off for an hour, it helps cause my husband works nights so he's home in the day so he's around when I'm feeling my worst, im missing my mum so much tho, she phoned me yesterday and I just burst into tears which I didn't want to do as I knew she would worry but just hearing her voice started me off. My sister brought me a bunch of flowers round whilst I was in bed so that made me smile when I got up, im trying to stay positive but it's so hard XX

[pulisa]

It certainly is hard...and really frightening. Your Mum will be back soon and that will make you feel safer. Nothing wrong in needing your Mum no matter how old you are.....and you're certainly not old!! It's only natural.

I hope you have a better night. Hang on to the fact that people obviously care for you x

[nicola1980]

Thankyou Pulisa, you guys are helping me so much aswell XX

---------- Post added at 22:18 ---------- Previous post was at 22:17 ----------

Thankyou Pip XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Ok I understand. Have you tried just sitting there and letting it wash over you? i.e. Not fighting it at all. All I'm saying is, you might be making it 10 times worse by struggling against it. Just a suggestion.

I doubt it, like I said I went through this and my anxiety was significantly magnified beyond anything I had ever felt. 8-10 days later, if suddenly reduced back to what it was before.

It's likely you make it a bit worse but not to this extent so trying techniques may help a little but they won't stop the side effects of a medicine that is causing them.

---------- Post added at 22:32 ---------- Previous post was at 22:29 ----------


You're right to mention this Dan but, as you'll remember, it's incredibly hard to do when you're in the throws of panic. I always think of it in terms of 3 stages which you have to take with a steady and measured approach:

Short term - deal with the crippling symptoms, often with the help of medication
Medium term - continue with what is working and start to make sense of what your triggers are and how your mind reacts
Long term - accept that this is who you are and realise that anxiety cannot hurt you or hold you back. This is the flowing over you part you're describing and it often takes years with some people never getting there

Nic - hang in there. You've done it before which means you will again. I really feel for you as I know what it feels like. We're all here to help :hugs:

Pip x

Its the norepinephrine side effects kicking in and they will go once past the side effect window unless the person isn't suited to the medication.

Quick techniques may help a bit but anything that needs learning isn't likely to help as this should be a short term thing.

---------- Post added at 22:37 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ----------


I know Dan was only trying to help but this type of agitation is unbearable and self-help measures are out of the question. Maybe when things are a bit calmer...It's not easy to imagine agitation like this if you've never experienced it.

How are you Nic?

Yep, I had it and I never want to experience that again. I can't say I remember how it really felt because it was nothing like any of my anxiety even when I had become housebound and struggled with anxiety of the most basic tasks.

With many other side effects I think everyone would be saying is the meds and it will pass just try to X. It's just very hard with this one as it is a very scary thing to go through with no real answers from anyone.

[pulisa]

I honestly think that this type of agitation responds best to benzodiazepines. I know we're not meant to advocate these but for a short term measure they can take the edge off this unbearable condition. And it really is unbearable isn't it?

[nicola1980]

I'm feeling slightly calmer I think this morning, I still feel very shaky but the anxiety isn't as intense...yet! I'm going to force myself to get dressed this morning and go with my husband to the local shop and get my prescription, it will be hard but I feel so woolly headed the fresh air might do me good. My Gp told me not to worry about the Diazepam as it is only a low dose, before I started on venlafaxine 3 years I used to sometimes take 12mg a day so whatever gets me thro at the moment. My sisters invited me and my son for tea too as my husband will be at work so even tho it would be easier for me to decline at the moment I'm going to go even if it's just for an hour at least I've made it out and my poor son's not stuck at home again especially as it's half term so I really am trying to help myself but sometimes just the little things are so hard XX

[Pipkin]

Exactly the right thing to do Nic. I know it's incredibly hard to keep active but it's about the best thing you can do. Try and enjoy yourself!

Pip x

[nicola1980]

Well the anxiety has been alot more bearable today, i managed to make it out this morning even tho I rushed around like a mad woman in town getting what I needed to get home again but at least I did it, my friend popped round to see me and I actually managed not to cry on her so that's progress! I went to my sisters for tea and even tho I had to force my it down me at least I managed to eat something, i even managed to bath my 11 month old niece altho she screamed all the way thro it!! I'm just praying tomorrow is even easier XX

[clio51]

Hi Nic
Your going through the mill again!! Unless you have had anxiety at this level you can not imagine what it's like!!!! It's like nothing you can imagine,absolute agony.

Well done for getting out, it's so hard to do when your full of fear oh my god I still remember it as if it was yesterday I went through it.you should be proud you did wether you rushed or not you did it!

Your niece 11 mths wow that's gone so quick Nic! Just enjoy those better times in the day when you have them.
Glad your using the diazepam when needed(it's only a low dose at the end of the day) and if it gets you through use it.
It helped me knocked it on the head the other day, instead of the anxiety lingering all night and the thoughts staying with me and thinking hope I'm not like this tomorrow and worrying all night.

Chin up it can't be much longer now before it levels out in your system and calmer times return for you. Try stay strong Nic(it's flaming hard) shouldn't be much longer know. Xx

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Nicola,

How are you getting on?

I see you on the boards at similiar times to me and I'm hoping you have stopped posting because you feel a lot better and these effects have gone.

[nicola1980]

Hi terry, I've been meaning to post but didn't want to tempt fate! Since Monday I've felt really well, no real anxiety at all, im going out again and doing things, im not waking up with that feeling of dread anymore so I'm hoping I've turned a corner. I saw my physc yesterday and I felt really calm, she was pleased with my progress this week and said it sounds like the ven is doing its job now, im seeing her again in 7 weeks. I'm sure I'll still have my bad days as it's such a rocky road but that unbearable anxiety has lifted now and I feel able to cope with things alot better and deal with the issues particularly my grief from my miscarriage. Thankyou for all your help XX

[pulisa]

Am really pleased to hear this. I must admit that I thought you were on too high a dose of ven but you rode out the storm and hopefully things will continue to get better for you after such a horrible time.

Wishing you all the very best and be kind to yourself. You've been through a lot xx

[nicola1980]

Thankyou Pulisa, looking back now I really don't know how I actually got thro it, the side effects were truly horrendous especially the heightened anxiety, im pleased I rode it out it now tho XX

[Pipkin]

Yeah! Great news. When I started ven this time it took 3 months to settle down completely so you're well on track.

Pip :hugs:

[nicola1980]

Thanks Pip :hugs: been on the increase 4 week's now XX

[pulisa]

Ven appears to be such a complex medication with all its prolonged side effects on starting/increasing/ withdrawing. It either works very well (eventually!) or doesn't appear to work at all and then there's the horrible reducing dose nightmare (for the unlucky ones)

My daughter (autistic spectrum) is now 5 days ven-free. It's been bad despite the fact that it's taken just under a year to withdraw totally. The GP said that she could just go from 75 mg to zero overnight:mad:Fortunately I chose to ignore this advice.

I don't think that ven is a drug for the faint-hearted but then it does appear to be prescribed when other options have failed so maybe it produces more side effects in people with more complex symptoms/conditions?

[nicola1980]

I'll be honest Pulisa if I knew what I knew now about ven I would never have gone on it, it petrifies me the horror stories I've read about it but at the time I was prescribed it I was a complete mess, had tried 4 other AD's which had all failed and I was desperate, it does tend to be a last resort med prescribed when others have failed. I had an awful time just withdrawing by 37.5mg and it scares the life out of me that I'm on 187.5mg of it especially as we would like another baby at some point but I have got an appointment to see the perinatal physc on Tuesday to discuss medication and pregnancy, my sister was taking sertraline when she found out she was pregnant and she was took straight off it and she completely crashed and had awful withdrawals from that, she was eventually put on a supposedly pregnancy safe AD imipramine but it did nothing really for her so she started back on her sertraline the day her daughter was born and she's now doing great again yet I've known 3 different people all give birth on 3 different AD's sertraline, citalopram and prozac with no problem at all but I guess I'll know more on Tuesday
I think you've done exactly the right thing lowering your daughter the way you have, ven does come in 37.5mg slow release tablets which I don't think many doctors are aware of. Has your daughter had failed attempts at other ADs? Is there a plan in place to start her on another? It sounds like it has and is very stressful for you. I hope she's not suffering too much off the ven with the withdrawals, was she given anything to help with the withdrawals like Diazepam? They were a godsend to me with my increase. Does your daughter suffer anxiety or depression or both? It's so hard seeing your child suffer isn't it, before I started the ven I had to move back in with my parents with my son due to my husbands work shifts and I wasn't capable of looking after myself let alone my son and my mum was worried sick, she lost an awful lot of weight, i felt so guilty but at the time I was so scared and all I wanted was my mum, I was so bad she had to sleep with me as I was so scared of being alone but it was the ven that actually pulled me out of that hole and eventually I was able to move back home. I really hope your daughter is ok and getting all the help and support she needs from your Gp or mental health team XX

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:34 ----------

Forgot to say I was prescribed ven for panic attacks and severe anxiety, i was later diagnosed by a physiologist that in fact what I was suffering from was PTSD from my past XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

I agree Pulisa. I know from reading the NICE guidelines that there is a section about treating people after SSRI fail and how consideration should be given to the side effects of starting SNRI's and that there is a higher failure to continue rate, so there must be some studies out there somewhere it NICE are issueing that guidance.

My GP never said anything. I was wary after being on Citalopram the first time and the mess that left me in at the start. On both occasions my GP stated side effects are likely to be "some sweating and looseness of stool". Thats pretty damn far from the side effects! And they wonder why people are are ringing them up in a desperate state within days! The second time, when I started Duloxetine, I made no contact and just fought through it because I knew what he would say. I raised it the first time with Citalopram and his reply was "there is nothing else you can try", but I knew nothing back then and I was pretty angry when I read NHS Choices advice that states GP's can swap and reading the threads on here before I joined!

Nicola - I'm really pleased for you. I never want to go through that again if I can avoid it so I hate seeing others go through it.

GP's chalk it all up as variations on "chronic anxiety", "generalised anxiety", etc. When you get to the experts, you get a proper diagnosis which GP's really aren't qualified to make. Severe anxiety can be severe any form so its too vague in my opinion. My records don't show me as having OCD, which I've had for 3 years now and been through CBT referred by my GP but it seems he doesn't update his notes from the referrals and I gave up, I'm not micromanaging a GP on their cash and went to the charities and this place instead.

The important thing is that you understand your anxiety, you can then pose the right questions and tell them the things that matter most which will likely help any therapy so its not about firefighting.

[Michelle1]

Hi all I am Michelle and new to the forum but have a great deal of personal experience of the drug venlafaxine/effexor.
I am 2 weeks into starting venlafaxine for the 4th time. I've managed to withdraw successfully 3 times (it's awful I know but manageable if done right).
I've suffered with mild depression but my main problem has always been anxiety. I started using antidepressant medication 15 years ago and have tried paroxatine, prozac, sertraline, citalopram, duloxitine and of course venlafaxine.

Venlafaxine was my 3rd antidepressant and every time I gradually taper off and withdraw from it I vow never to go on it again. Withdrawl can be very distressing even if done gradually over many months.

I finally get through the withdrawl process I am ok for 3-6 Mths max and the anxiety returns. But this time even worse. Nicola your description of anxiety sounds very similar to my own.

At my worst and off medication, I suffer gad, panic disorder, am unable to work, socialise with friends, I constantly twitch, get muscle cramps, head pins and needles, brain fog, slurred speaking. To be honest barely functioning. It gets so bad and so scary I think I am losing my mind, getting dementia or worse. I am unable to leave the house. I spend all day everyday in my dressing gown wishing the day away. Feeling terrible guilt that I am a bad mother and why can't I cope. When everyone around me seems to be coping and living life. I feel like I am existing not living and life is passing me by.
During the night is the worst time for me. Constantly twitching in bed. Tense, shoulders up by my ears. Hear beating fast. Thoughts racing. I've often got into bed with my daughter because I want to feel safe. I feel something terrible is happening to me. Twice I have begged my gp to admit me in hospital because there I will feel safe. Doesn't make sense when I'm feeling well but when I'm off meds and very ill nothing seems to make sense.

Like I said I stay off meds 3-6 Mths max and need to go back on. I beg for anything but venlafaxine but it's the only thing which works and brings me relief. I know now I need to be on this drug for life and that scares the hell out of me. But my life when I'm not on it is far worse.

My personal belief is venlafaxine is far more powerful than we think. It changes the brain in a way that other ad don't. My personal experience is each time I come off it I am much worse than I ever was before I started it. It has made permanent changes in my brain and now my brain needs this drug to function. I really wish I'd never started it all those years ago. Now I need it to function.

Like I say I have lots of experience of this drug over the last ten years. Both at low doses and high doses and instant release and time release. I know the best and safest way to withdraw. Any advise I can give to any of you suffering out there I'll do my best to help.

In my experience venlafaxine should be used with caution. Should be used after all other ad have failed. It's a very good drug for anxiety and does have a valid place in treatment resistant anxiety/depression but my advise would be try to stay on the lowest dose possible. I know we all want to get well as quickly as possible and get frustrated when it can take weeks/Mths to feel any relief but quickly raising the dose in my opinion is not the answer and the higher you go, the harder it is to reduce if you should have to. Try and stay on the lowest dose possible for at least 6-8 weeks before deciding to increase and then only increase at 37.5 at a time.

Also my opinion is have some Cbt along with the medication when you feel well enough to do so. Talking and learning new techniques to help you overcome your depression/anxiety. Talking to people who understand your illness is so important. If don't know what I'd do if I didn't have friends/family to talk to about how I'm feeling. These forums are fantastic and so helpful. When I read your stories a I see so much of my own in what your all going through.

Like Nicola when I'm at my worst I needed to have my mum with me and she lives in Spain me in the uk. She had to stay in my house sleep in my bed with me for at least a couple of Mths. When I'm well I think what was all that about �� but at the time I couldn't function. Anxiety is an awful awful illness and unless you have been there it is hard to describe it. I hope on this website I will find some friends and we can help and encourage each other through the good times and the bad. Michelle xx

[pulisa]

Nic, my daughter is on the autistic spectrum (diagnosed at 2 and a half) and was also diagnosed with OCD, severe anxiety and depression by the Maudsley aged 10. She has been on every SSRI imaginable and they all give her life threatening neutropenia (a very rare side effect I am told) and SNRIs have been useless despite long trials. I tried mirtazapine once and had a violent reaction hence no way would I consider that for my daughter. Basically autism and severe anxiety are a lethal combination hence the "treatment resistant" diagnosis.

We've gone through many eminent psychiatrists (many with dubious "eccentricities") and have persevered with CBT programmes which mainly help mild to moderate conditions but basically we are on our own with minimal input from a GP who thinks he knows a lot but actually is only clued up on physical ailments.

I've hopefully got her accepted for some private art therapy (one-to-one) and this may be an avenue to explore? Other than that she and I do our own "therapy"! Mindfulness does come into it but too much can make her panic.

This afternoon we've got an out-of-hours appt to see a random GP-she needs help with this withdrawal as it's a nightmare. I'm going to press for a short course of diazepam to help get her through the day and night. Like you, Terry, I can't bear to see someone with this horrible agitation, let alone my own daughter....

Sorry to hijack your thread, Nic. Am hoping that today has been OK for you? You have a lot to consider re future pregnancies and anti depressants-it is not an easy decision to make. Are there any real experts you could consult as it's such a huge issue or is it all down to NICE guidelines? Maybe somewhere like the Maudsley would have the best advice?

[nicola1980]

Hi Michelle, good grief what your describing is exactly me down to, my mum having to sleep with me! The fear of anxiety is dreadful and 2 weeks ago I was seriously asking to be admitted too as I felt so bad.
What dose of venlafaxine do you need to be stable? Mine is 187.5mg, feel free to message me anytime XX

---------- Post added at 13:24 ---------- Previous post was at 13:18 ----------

Pulisa what is the maudsley? I've heard it mentioned a few times on here
your poor daughter bless her and you, it must be absolutely heartbreaking for you to see her suffer, i hope you get some Diazepam for her to give her some respite. I also didn't react well to mirtazapine infact it made me a suicidal wreck where I would have quite happily slit my wrists and the anger I felt whilst on it was awful, i refused to continue with it and this was when I was put on venlafaxine. I really hope you get some help for your daughter XX

[Michelle1]

Hi Nicola

I started venlafaxine 2 weeks ago (4th time) I'm on 37.5 instant release. I'm staying on this dose as long as I can. If things get any worse I'll go up to 75mgs.

I know I can get relief from a low dose. The max I have ever been on is 150 mg time release but it made me feel much worse. I had no energy what so ever. No motivation. Gained 2 stone (8 stone to 10 stone) blurred vision in 1 eye. Yes I had No anxiety what so ever but all I did all day was lie on the sofa watching tv. I was eating way too much of all the wrong foods and felt tired from getting up to going to bed. I was on the generic time release not effexor so that made a difference. Effexor is far superior.

Last year I was happily taking 37.5 a day. I went through 2 dramatic life changes first my dad died whom I was very close to. 2nd I got divorced. I handled them both very well. I surprised myself. I never went to pieces. Everyone around me was so surprised I was coping so well.

Fast forward to being off meds - unable to work past 4 Mths. Cry at the drop of a hat. Every little pain I think is cancer. I'm convinced I have a brain Tumour when I have a headache. My blurred vision is still affecting my right eye and pins and needles muscle twitching I think I have ms. I have got myself into an awful anxious mess. First thing on a morning as soon as I wake up (usually 5-6 o clock) I immediately am in a state of panic. Heart racing, feeling sick needing the toilet and I've just woken up. This happens every single morning. Sometimes it can happen 3-4 times during the night too. The frustrating thing is I have nothing to be anxious about. Apart from this illness I have a very comfortable life. That's why I believe the meds have changes the transmitters/receptors in my brain and unless I am on venlafaxine I am unable to function.

I can't wait to feel "normal" again and be a good mother. Get back to work, and start enjoying life once again. At the moment every day is a huge struggle and I look forward to the day ending. Then I think another day down till meds kick in.

I hope we can both encourage each other through this illness. Hope your having a better day. Michelle xx

[pulisa]

Thank you Nic for your kind wishes. Michelle, welcome to the forum and I totally agree with what you say about venlafaxine. Having autism makes things more complicated but I would say that my daughter is a lot worse since she started on ven. She was on 225mg and I refused to let the psych increase it any more- he wanted to but he was a total incompetent. Thank God I didn't. She has been ven-free since last Sunday but is really terribly agitated 24/7 now. When the sleep goes it's time to act.

[Michelle1]

Hi Pulisa

You sound like a great mum and you have done the right thing in the way you have slowly tapered your daughters venlafaxine down very slowly.

The worst part of the reduction is when you get to the very small dose. 37.5 instant release still has to be broken down into half and quarters and still done very slowly. The first week of coming off your emotions are everywhere angry one minute crying the next. The brain freezes were still hitting me months after I'd stopped.

I thought I was just getting over the withdrawl and over the worst and feeling proud of myself for getting off the drug when bam the anxiety starts all over again but twice as bad as it was before the venlafaxine and in my case no other ad medication worked. My brain and body was craving the drug and my life was never the same.

Each time I get well for a couple of years think I can withdraw and be drug free. Each time I learn a big lesson. I can't function without venlafaxine. This last episode has proved that to me and I have well and truly learnt my lesson. How I wish I could rewind life to that day the first gp offered it to me. How I wish I'd been told the possible implications of taking it were and I'd refused it and tried something else. Now I have learnt to accept what's happened and make the most of it and stay on as low a dose as possible to have some quality of life.

I do hope your daughter gets through the withdrawl you have done a fantastic job with the taper and I hope you do find the right medication in the future to help your daughter with her illness. I'm sending you big hugs. Michelle xx

[nicola1980]

Hi Michelle, i hope the venlafaxine kicks in for you very soon, i take 150mg of effexor and 37.5mg venlalic slow release, i started on just 37.5mg too but didn't improve much until I went to 150mg and even then I needed an extra 37.5mg to be 'stable'. I am seeing and hearing more about people being prescribed venlafaxine so I think it's becoming more popular with Gps, maybe as other AD's aren't working? It's good that you only need a low dose and maybe you will always need tgjt maintenance foreword venlafaxine to function normally, i found it a slow med and it's side effects quite severe especially this last increase I've had from 150mg to 187.5mg, my anxiety and agitation heightened to an immense level it scared me and it took over 3 weeks for it to calm down and now I'm feeling so much better and functioning nearly normal again.
Pulisa please let me know how you get on with the out of hours doctor with your daughter, your doing a remarkable job and should be very proud of yourself, your daughter is very lucky to have such a loving caring mum like you and hopefully she will start feeling better very soon XX

[pulisa]

I just wanted to report back and thank you both for your kindness.

We actually saw a GP who had an interest in mental health:ohmy:.....mainly because he admitted that he was on anti depressants himself! He gave her a script for 3x diazepam daily(5mg) but said that she would need long term support from a psychiatrist specialising in adult autistic spectrum disorder (I've been searching without luck for 13 years.....)I've already pinpointed one who specialises in autism in females and I have to email her this afternoon and ask to have an assessment done. I'm going to contact her on Monday if I can get hold of her..

He said CBT was pointless on an autistic person and that only intelligent people were capable of experiencing anxiety. Interesting viewpoints..

I came away with 28x 5mg diazepam and instructions to get in touch with this "expert" asap. At least this will get us over the weekend hopefully.

Thank you both again. It's good to have support when the going gets tough. xx

[nicola1980]

Hi Pulisa, im so pleased you got on ok and actually got a Gp that knew about mental health, hopefully the Diazepam will give your daughter the respite she needs for a few days to aid her recovery, they certainly helped me when I increased my ven. I hope you manage to find someone who can help your daughter, it must be so frustrating for you, as a mum myself I understand you just want the best for your children and I know like you i would do anything to help my child. I wish you and your daughter the best of luck, please let me know how she is getting on :hugs: XX

[Michelle1]

Hi Pulisa
Please continue to let us know how your daughter is. I hope the diazipam brings some relief from with discontinuation of venlafaxine. Like Nicola said it must be the hardest thing seeing your child in distress. Can I ask how old is she? Can she explain how she is feeling to you?
My daughter is 15 and old enough to understand about my illness and she is such a blessing. She is the main reason I continue to get out of bed each day. My illness actually started as post natal depression 15 years ago. Before I had my daughter I had no depression and no anxiety disorders. I often wonder if mine was hormonal related.
The light at the end of the tunnel for me is I know venlafaxine can get me out of this anxious state. It has done 3 times previously. It's just a waiting game for the meds to start doing their job. I'm also taking 2mg diazipam daily and 20mg propanalol twice daily which is helping. Just wish I didn't need to take meds at all. But if I had a heart problem I'd take meds if I was diabetic I'd take meds so the way I look at it now is I have a chemical imbalance in my brain and need meds. I'm not seeing it as a failure but as a sign of being strong and taking responsibility. Nicola I am so pleased you are feeling better now. Your battle with anxiety really feels so similar to my own. I love your message at the bottom you were given this life because you were strong enough to live it. That is so true. Xx

[nicola1980]

Hi Michelle, my anxiety started after my 14 year old son was born too, infact I had my first panic attack in the hospital after I had had him, he was very poorly when he was born and was in special care and my anxiety stems from there, i was put on citalopram which worked and I've took this on and off since but unfortunately when I tried to reinstate it 3 years ago it didn't work and I tried 3 other ADs without success hence me now being on ven, like you i think if I was diabetic I would take meds so yes I have a mental illness so I also need meds to get me thro. I really hope the ven kicks in for you soon, i find it takes around 3-4 weeks to notice a difference so your nearly there, just hang on in there and use your Diazepam to help, i always carry some on me it's like a security blanket just knowing there there, this illness just strips you of all your confidence doesn't it?
Pulisa I hope your daughter is getting some relief with the Diazepam but make sure you look after yourself too, sometimes when your caring for someone you forget about yourself
hugs to you both :hugs: XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Pulisa - I can't believe there isn't plenty of psychiatrists who are trained in both anxiety and autism thesedays. Autism seems much more common and anxiety certainly is. I also can't see how someone who works on the mental health of someone who has autism cannot understand anxiety anyway because its always been my understanding that a one of the big problems is anxiety in that condition. Admittidly, I really don't know beyond things I've seen on TV or read in newspapers, although I have listened to a lady in the walk-in groups who was a self harmer who had a child with this, but it always gave me the impression that making changes can be a big anxiety trigger for them.

I remember listening to that lady. Her child was in the process of diagnosis, something which seemed pretty woeful as it seemed to take ages and involve a load of box ticking & paperwork. Her child was in a regular primary school and they were not geared up for dealing with a child with special needs. In fact, there was one day where thay had a dres up day for the kids as dinosaurs and it terrified the life out of this child and he had to be seperated for the day. I couldn't believe the pressure this lady & her husband were under, let alone having her own mental health issues including anxiety & self harm. It made me feel like my issues were very minor by comparison. It was also quite apparent that 'the system' is not set up to deal with it properly either as it was adding big delays to getting her child the care he needed. I guess we don't know our real inner strength because when its major like this, we seem to find it (I've had a couple of examples of this myself and wondered how I could do something when I can't get past the simple things) but struggle with the minor everyday stuff.

Did you find all that when you went through it?

My mum was a nursery nurse (back in the days when they actually had them and they were trained at the nurses colleges where the regular nurses go so its going back a bit) and they had a child like this. She said the teachers had no clue what to do and 2 of the nurses, including my mum, would look after him for the day now & again to give his mum a break as they could see what it was doing to her and she was getting no help from anyone.

I hope they listen to you and help your daughter through this. I can't imagine how horrible this must be for an autistic child, it would be bad enough for any child and extremely stressful for their parents. I agree with you, I don't think getting through with psychological is going to cut it here, she needs something to help her and then all the therapy can start to move her forward long term. I sometimes think doctors should be asked to take some of these meds like how they make police officers experience tazering & pepperspraying so they appreciate it and only use it when necessary. I bet that GP you saw changed his mind about dishing antidepressants out the minute he started on them!

Art therapy sounds good. They do some of that at the centre the charity who held the walk-ins I attended rented out. There is a book on Amazon for Mindfulness based art that has come out recently!

Nicola - really glad to hear you are doing well. You feel totally different don't you? You know you are still anxious, but its nothing like what you experienced. This is how I knew it was the norepinephrine element and also why it stood out when you started posting.

Maudsley is a NHS hospital. It does a lot of work with people on the OCD spectrum, including HA, from what I have seen. I only know that because I keep seeing Dr Paul Salkovskis name pop up and the OCD charities have a lot to do with them. I don't know what else they treat though but people speak very highly of them. Well, put it this way, Dr Salkovskis has been on the panel for the NICE recommendations for anxiety for both times and he is a well respected expert in OCD in the UK and I know of another guy there who is an author, is heavily involved with OCD Action and who also works at The Priory and given the big bucks involved in that place, its only going to attract the best medical professionals.

Michelle - welcome to NMP :welcome:

It sounds like you will have a lot to give in here and I hope you get back what you need as well.

Can I ask how you faired on Duloxetine? I suffered as Nicola did. The 30mg was ok, a bit like going on 20mg of Citalopram and I had about a week after the side effects passed where I started to feel good, then it seemed to poop out so I thought it was probably that you start 60mg at that point as you have adjusted to 30mg. The 60mg gave me 8-10 days of living hell with anxiety, the worst I have ever felt as Nicola did. I just hung on, never contacted my GP as I knew he wouldn't be much use and it broke in the end.

However, since then I noticed that I seem to have a better period and then a worse period and it doesn't matter whether there is a trigger or not, it still comes. When it breaks again, I wake up and feel different. Initially it was 3 weeks bad to 1 week ok, then it went to 2 weeks each, then 10 days bad, then 7 days bad, then 4 days bad, and then 2-3 days but after a few months it then became more frequent so that it would be 7-10 days ok/good and then the bad 2-3 days came.

I can't remember being like that on Citalopram.

So far, I've found high strength Omega 3 and vitamin C is reducing the swings or if I have them, the mood won't slip much if at all even though the anxiety has to runs its course.

I often refer to it as my 'anxiety ulcer' because it builds and builds over those days until is just disappears. I may feel a bit odd for a day or two afterwards but I feel different. I'm wondering whether this is part of the norepinephrine side of Duloxetine. I know its a higher concentration than ven, hence being in smaller doses and its epinephrine kick in point seems to be the standard dose for GAD at 60mg. I'm wondering whether it causes some form of build up and your just get anxious no matter what. I'm a bit unsure how to manage that long term, I can't see being able to work or plan ahead can work unless I can temper it somehow. I know part of it is my reaction and the supplements are helping there, but its like it just has to run it's course.

I have also found myself feeling angry at times on it. When I've been out, I have had the odd day where I have felt like I just wanted someone to get in my face so I take it out on them. Thats really not me, I'm not that kind of person. When that happens, I just get walking a bit faster and burn it off but I feel like I can take a load of people on at once, it reminds me a bit of steriods and how they boost adrenaline. So, maybe its too much sometimes and it just needs to come out? Its not anxiety though, I feel super positive with it.

[pulisa]

Just wanted to thank you all for your concern and good wishes.

My daughter in now 23 and "able" in terms of her autism spectrum disorder. She was diagnosed at 2 and a half by an eminent psychiatrist-there was no doubt about it but I had to inform my GP as to whom I wanted to diagnose her as he hadn't a clue (autism wasn't as "fashionable" then and I had to make all the running). The consultation was pretty brief and I believe the psych nodded off at one point! I wasn't too impressed so got an appointment with a leading autism psychologist 6 months later who confirmed the diagnosis but performed "triad of impairment" assessment tests where she hit the jackpot for autism. 20 years ago things were very different and it was more straightforward getting a diagnosis (no NICE guidelines etc :D)

Yes, Michelle, she is very competent at expressing how she feels (so much anger at her anxiety/OCD). This of course fuels her adrenaline and the cycle is perpetuated but she can't change the way she operates and any attempt at modifying her thought patterns scares the life out of her... It's a complex situation. She has a dual diagnosis of autism and OCD (made at the Maudsley when she was 10). The OCD is not associated with ritualistic autistic behaviours-she very much does not want to be controlled by her obsessive/intrusive thoughts which grossly affect her day to day life.

Anyway, tomorrow I shall make some inroads into moving forward and getting some decent support. Terry, despite all the autism "experts " and "!champions" declared in the media the reality is very different, especially for people who are not at the lower end of the autistic spectrum yet are unable to access or cope with "mainstream" life.

Thank you all again for helping me when you have enough problems of your own. I'm so grateful xx

[nicola1980]

Hi Pulisa, my friends daughter has just recently been diagnosed with autism and adhd, she is 9 now and her mum's been fighting to get her diagnosed since she was 3 and it's took this long, she now takes meds for the adhd and meds to help her sleep as she's literally swinging from the ceilings when her adhd meds wear off at night time, i think it's disgusting she's had to fight so hard for a diagnosis especially as it was obvious there was a problem, she has been diagnosed with quite severe autism, my friend is struggling with this diagnosis as she knew she had adhd but the autism shocked her, she has alot of rituals and has no sense of danger what so ever so obviously they are very concerned for her future. I've worked with many autistic and adhd children all ranging from different levels and it's very hard for us so I can only imagine what it is like for the parents. How is your daughter now Pulisa now she's got the Diazepam? Is it taking the edge off the agitation for her? I really do hope so. I hope you have success finding the help your daughter needs. You are a very strong lady hun and I think your doing an absolutely amazing job with your daughter and hopefully she will get the help she deserves very soon XX

[Michelle1]

Hi terry sorry for late reply. Yesterday was not a great day. Although I have been awake since 3.30am today I do feel calmer. Fingers crossed I am turning a corner. It will be 3 weeks on Wednesday so I'm hoping se of starting Ven again will start to ease off.

My experience on previous ad:-

Paroxatine - really helped me was on it about 2 years. Made me much more social, no anxiety. But side effects were weight gain and very hard to get off. Paroxatine and venlafaxine are the two hardest ad to come off.
Sertraline - lasted 9 weeks increased anxiety but also gave me suicidal thoughts. Came off reasonably easy 50mgs to 25mgs then off.
Mirt - awful depression on this and always hungry.
Prozac - fine till day 10 then got symptoms of serotonin syndrome got raging temp sickness anxiety off the chart. Easy to withdraw.
Duloxitine - maybe I didn't give this one long enough to work. I was doing a taper off Ven to go onto duloxitine about 2 weeks in my anxiety again went off the chart, fever, tics, muscle cramps all over my body. Jerking everytime I was about to drift off to sleep. Stomach gurgling all the time the kind of noise when your hungry this would go on for hours. Generally feeling unwell. Maybe if I could of got over this it could of worked, but I couldn't handle it and came off after 2-3 weeks. No withdrawl except pressure headache and feeling sick.

Ven was the 3rd drug I hate it but it is the one that treats my illness. That's why I always end up going back to it. Each time I've withdrawn in the past I vow never again !!!! But when nothing else works and your desperately unwell you will do anything to try to feel well again.

Last time I withdrew from Ven was last June very very slowly but still withdrawl was hell. Managed to stay off till 12 feb and needed to go back on.

I spoke with my gp about staying on for life now. Yes I'd love to be drug free and se free but compared with how ill I am when I'm off it. I'd rather stay on it. I'm stopping on the very lowest dose I can manage on. Once stable I want to come off the diazipam I'm only on 2mgs but been on them a long long time. I've got pregablin to help come off the Valium. Eventually I just want to be on the low maintaince dose of Ven.

Anyway, hope everyone is doing ok it's a very bumpy road to recovery and we have good days and bad days but talking and encouraging each other on this website really does help.

Hi nic hope your doing ok today?

Hi Pulisa hope your daughter is getting some relief from the diazipam

Michelle x

[MyNameIsTerry]

Thanks Michelle,

My anxiety went off the chart with waking adrenaline rushes lasting about 1.5-2 hours daily for 8-10 days when I went to the standard 60mg dose. I've spoken to another member on here who had terrible extra anxiety just going onto the 30mg dose which sounds like your experience. I wondered whether the 60mg dose would have made it far worse for him or whether it would have been easier...its just such a lottery. There are some people who have very little side effects on either dosage. I just don't understand how things are so different...its like the manufacturers can't make them in a consistant manner because you expect a drug to work a certain way and its like they don't when you read these differing stories.

I just kept saying to myself "any day now, it will break". I tried to view it like a physical injury and saying to myself, "its just pain, accept it for now".

I would think that if you struggle to move to the norepinephrine dose of ven, as Nicola has, then Duloxetine will be the same. Duloxetine kicks in at a low dosage of 60mg but below that is normally not seen for GAD and depression anyway.

I question SNRI's really. Trials show they are little more effective than SSRI's and even NICE recognise the potential for greater side effects over SSRI's. The argument for having seems more a matter of giving us a greater range of medications to trawl through until we find one that works!

I can understand what you mean about being better on them than off. I don't know how this will go for me, its only my second time going through it all but I do think about this and how last time I was back on something 6 months later. I knew I was slipped 2 months after I stopped the Citalopram. My GP was pressuring me to withdraw but I won't allow that again now, I know too much from places like this. I hated the thought of going back on medication but it was only because of the start up side effects. I knew it was the lesser of 2 evils as I couldn't go on like that everyday. You feel backed into a corner, nowhere to go except straight through.

[pulisa]

It's such a terrifying place to be in as no one can go on day after day with hideous agitation (and night after night). What do you think about anti psychotics and carbamazepine when used for anxiety? My daughter has been offered them but I've never been keen. When I was in hospital the first time I had anti psychotics and felt like a zombie and very unwell-a chemical cosh really.

[nicola1980]

Hi everyone, well I've not been too good anxiety wise today, I'd booked a hairdressers appointment for today as I've not had it done since December and it looks awful well I worked myself up into a right state about going, not sure why as it's my close friends salon so not like I don't know them, i felt sick, the nerves in my tummy were awful, i very nearly cancelled but didn't, I drove there feeling horrendous shaking and alsorts but I was fine whilst there, was even Laughing and joking with my friend but then on the drive home my nervous tummy started again, I think I'd just worked myself up into such a state about going that I'm just feeling the aftermath, I've took half a 2mg of Diazepam to see if that helps calm my nerves down, i truly hate this, it completely zaps you of all your confidence this damn anxiety, i feel I can't plan anything at the min as I just get in a anxious state about it, to think last summer I was here there and everywhere, having bbq's with friends even managed a 2 week holiday abroad, yes I was on the ven still but was stable and I feel I'm having to claw my way back up again :( Argh it's so frustrating!! XX

[pulisa]

Hang in there, Nic. You've clawed your way back to a better quality of life-don't be scared that it'll all come tumbling down again. Today was a bad day but tomorrow will be better. The increased ven will have established itself by now but you'll still have some jittery days. It's so frustrating but have faith in your ability to feel better. Maybe a visit to the hairdresser's was just too much at the moment? You are a bit "under the spotlight" there and you've only just emerged from an horrendous period of agitation?

Hoping that you have a good night's sleep and that tomorrow will be more settled for you xx

[nicola1980]

Thanks Pulisa, I think your right it probably was a bit too much for me at the minute...A bit like trying to run before you can walk!! I do tend to overdo stuff when I'm feeling better so maybe I need to slow down a bit, got a busy week coming up too with my niece's 1st birthday wed then my mums Fri then a big family meal out on sat Argh!!
How's your daughter hun? Is the Diazepam helping her? XX

[pulisa]

Well I think that she has been more controlled with the diazepam, thanks, but the anger/anxiety/pull of OCD still rumbles on.

Have made concerted efforts to pace her through the day and have tried to stop her over exerting herself in the attempt to burn off adrenaline. This never works despite everyone saying it should! Overall some progress, I feel. Thanks very much for your concern. 8 days post-ven now.

You've got a demanding few days ahead of you! Can you get out of any of it? (If you want to, that is)

[SADnomore]

Hello all. Good luck to everyone ... me, I've decided to up my dose as of yesterday, 37.5 mg for a total of 262.5 mg now. In two weeks I will see about trying 300 mg. I didn't want to have to do it, I was doing so well at 225 since December. However, when provoked I became anxious at one point for a couple of days, and I am noticing the signs again. Overworry, over-thinking, feeling as though I need defending. Plus the black dog is skulking at the door looking to be let in. And now next weekend is the time change, which will decrease daylight again by an hour. Feet of snow and cold wind has come back, so I thought with winter persisting like this I would try a month of 300 to see if it helps. Then I really must start the decrease for summer.

Michelle, I am going to be on ven for as long as it continues to work for me, as my problems are worst seasonally and there will be no end to that. To be honest, I have to say that if the meds are working, and relapse always comes along without, then I'm not sure at all why people are encouraged to keep coming off? If it is a chemical imbalance, then why would it suddenly right itself next time? ... I do get it about poop-out and the hope that switching up/discontinuing the ven can help prevent it. It does help me so much, I would be willing to try something else over summer if it would help. Start-up was no picnic, but I would do it all again! Mind you, some people have come off and back on, only to find it no longer works for them :( I would sooner wait for the poop out in that case. I may be one of the lucky ones for whom it doesn't seem to happen ... I've been told it is inevitable inside of two years, but I've read plenty of people saying it has been working for a decade or more with no signs of pooping out. I don't know what to think! :wacko:


Terry, Nicola, hang in there guys, you're doing really well by digging in and fighting the good fight. Lots of support for one another here, so good to see. I think that's what makes the difference. Keep it up! Pulisa all the best. Have you tried any of the ADD drugs or the "major tranquilizers"? I'm wondering if they might be prescribed longer as they aren't benzodiazapenes ...

[nicola1980]

Good luck with the increase Marie, have you noticed any side effects from increasing again? As you can see I had an awful time going from 150mg to 187.5mg. I've never read of ven pooping out? Is that really the case?
I'm very shaky again this morning but I've got an appointment to see the perinatal physc this afternoon regarding my meds and any future pregnancy and to be honest I don't really want to go, i feel my miscarriage is still very raw for me at the min so not sure how I'll handle talking about pregnancy etc but my physc was adamant I went.
Pulisa im pleased the Diazepam is helping take the edge off for your daughter and she's now 8 days ven free so hopefully the withdrawal will start to ease off a bit, im going to have to force myself to get thro this busy week I think as don't want to let people down but no doubt I'll pay the price afterwards XX

---------- Post added at 07:04 ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 ----------

Michelle, pregabalin is supposed to be very good for anxiety when are you starting that? I hope your feeling a bit better today XX

[Michelle1]

Thanks Nic. I'm plodding on at the moment taking day by day and not putting any pressure on myself. I went back to bed yesterday afternoon for 4 hrs. Usually I feel guilty about going back to bed during the day but I'm changing the way I think and if I'm tired and feeling unwell I'm filling myself a hot water bottle (always feeling cold at the min) and going back to bed. Luckily I'm signed off sick and been off about 4 Mths, there is no way I can work through this. Anyway yesterday got a letter from work inviting me in for a disciplinary sickness meeting. This doesn't help when you suffer with bad anxiety. It's next Tuesday so I'll prob work myself up about it till it's over with.

I know what you mean about not wanting to go to the hairdressers, I'm the same at the moment I hate leaving the house. I don't mind friends coming to mine to visit but hate going out. I have to force myself to go supermarket shopping and usually end up taking my daughter with me so I'm not alone. This is an awful awful illness and strips you of all your confidence. I'm just doing baby steps at the min. If I need to cancel something I will. Hopefully not too much longer till I feel like my old self.

I totally agree Marie if it ain't broke don't change it. Ven worked the past 3 times and I'm sure it will again. I've learnt my lesson coming off them in the past. I should stay on these as long as they are working. I also feel much worse in winter and use a sun lamp not sure if it helps but hopefully now it's march I'll not feel so bad as I do in the winter months.

Today woke up at 4.30 I don't know if it's a rush of adrenaline or what but when I wake up I feel really dizzy, shaky, heart beating fast, very anxious this lasts about 15 mins it's an awful way to wake up on a morning.

Also getting lots of pins and needles sensations which I'm hoping is just anxiety and not a sign of something else. I have got pregablin to take to help get me off the Valium. I'm going to wait till I stabalise on the Ven and feel ok then I'll reduce the diazipam and replace with the pregablin. I don't want to rock the boat at the min changing too many drugs because then when I have se I won't be sure what's causing it.

Hopefully I'll get there soon. At the min I just feel like I'm existing and not living. It's like living in Groundhog Day. Hope you are all managing the best you can with this terrible illness. Sending out hugs to all of you going through it xx

[MyNameIsTerry]

Terry, Nicola, hang in there guys, you're doing really well by digging in and fighting the good fight. Lots of support for one another here, so good to see. I think that's what makes the difference. Keep it up! Pulisa all the best. Have you tried any of the ADD drugs or the "major tranquilizers"? I'm wondering if they might be prescribed longer as they aren't benzodiazapenes ...

Hi Marie :flowers:

I've seen you logged on when I've been on the last few days or so. I was only thinking last night I hope you are ok.

It must be such a pain when you are stuck in the house due to weather. I go out in any weather over here as long as its not thunder for obvious reasons. Its not the seem where I live though, we don't get the extremes like a lot of people on here do.

I quite enjoyed walking in the snow showers this year though, it felt tranquil as not many people are about and the cars are all slow.

---------- Post added at 12:05 ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 ----------




Hopefully I'll get there soon. At the min I just feel like I'm existing and not living. It's like living in Groundhog Day.

Thats one I use a lot too Michelle. Did you get it from the film like I did? Remember the various stages of mental torment he went through?

I know what you mean about it sapping your confidence. When I have a breakdown it brings agoraphobia with it, and its not like being in the house feels like a safe place either! Thats the trouble with GAD, you can't escape it sometimes.

This is my second time going through it all and everytime the pattern is the same:

- build up to breakdown.
- can't take anymore and go off sick.
- ask for help from my GP and get antidepressants.
- several weeks of suffering far worse than when I didn't think I could take anymore and asked for help (:wall:)
- spend a couple of months rebuilding myself to where I was when I went to my GP in the first place.
- the long hard slog uphill.

The side effects stage is where I tend to withdraw and avoid things to not experience any further sensations. I know this is wrong but its very hard to keep going when its bombarding you and it was particularily back with the taper up on Duloxetine. The first time perhaps shook me more as I didn't know what was going on but at least after the side effects went, I didn't have all these damn swings I have had to put up with until 6 months again when I started the Omega 3 & vitamin C.

All my confidence went. It was hard just to have a shower as it made me more anxious. Eating became an issue on Duloxetine, which was a lesser issue on Citalopram. Even drinking water was a chore at one point, it was that bad! Thank got I got past that after a few weeks by using distraction techniques when eating!!

The long hard slog is all about tackling the underlying elements that have been damaged through this process like self confidence, self worth, self esteem, etc.

Pulisa - glad your daughter is getting some help and she's got a very dedicated & determined mum to help her through this.

Nicola - try and get it out of your mind if you can, distract yourself. You may find that you will get beyond the panic after a short amount of time being there and it would be great to get that fear out of the way as it will speed your recovery up. You've got your mum with you as well as she's obviously been your rock through this so don't be afraid to ask her for help if you need it.

Take it slow at your appointment, if you need a comfort break I'm sure they will oblige as they know its going to be hard for you. Hang in there.

[nicola1980]

Thanks Terry, how long have you been on the duloxetine this time around? XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Its my first time on it but its been about 3 years or so. The first year was very hard though with anxiety and the cycling between bad & good. I got more of a handle on it after that but I'm prone to slipping into ruts due to the OCD side of this as my behaviour become obsessional, even healthy behaviours such as walking turned into a form of avoidance as I felt I couldn't stay in the house where I would be more likely to face the anxiety but I've got past that stage now as I made myself stay in for # months to break it at the start of last year.

I've been struggling moving forward due to this cycling issue but the Omega 3 seems to be resolving that for me.

[pulisa]

Hope your appointment was helpful, Nic? Must have been hard for you mentally?

[nicola1980]

My appointment went really well actually, I was in for an hour and a half with him and even tho it was very emotionally talking about pregnancy and my miscarriage etc I actually came out with some hope, he diagnosed me with depression causing anxiety and said that I can take venlafaxine in pregnancy which surprised me slightly but he was so helpful, he said if I feel no better mentally soon then there is other avenues they can go down, I've got to read up on some information he's gave me regarding his diagnosis and then to ring him and see if I agree....do you know I've been seeing my physc for 3 years now and not once has she actually gave me a diagnosis, i felt I got more out of seeing him for an hour and a half than I have off her in 3 years...I told him that too!! The appointment wasn't all pregnancy based either and my sister came with in with me and spoke up on my behalf at times with her insight into how I've been which was helpful so all in all not a bad session, i had lots of tears talking about my miscarriage tho, at one point I didn't think they were going to stop they just kept coming and I couldn't talk :( he has told me not to be afraid of venlafaxine as it's a very good AD but he would be inclined to increase me to 225mg, he's said withdrawal isn't pleasant but that's where Diazepam and zopiclone etc come in, he even mentioned using prozac to wean off venlafaxine which I have read of, he's told me I've got to stop Googling my meds and frightening myself as if I need to come off the venlafaxine there is ways to do it so it's tolerable so that made me feel better, he even said venlafaxine can be a wonder drug at the right dose for alot of people. I'm feeling slightly drained tonight from it all and taking it all in but I'm still cross at my physc for lowering my venlafaxine after my miscarriage when there was no need and it's been at detriment to my mental health, i also told him that too which he was quite shocked about. He's going to speak to my physc personally and write to her and await my call to see what path I want to go down.....He was quite young and nice looking too!!
How's everyone else doing? Pulisa how's your daughter today? How are you holding up looking after her? It must be so hard for you too XX

[clio51]

Hi Nic
So glad you got something from the perinatal psych, he sounds very thorough and gave you some good advice.
You sound very much like me regarding drugs and googling them! We want to know what we're taking etc but when we find out it scares the life out of us and we confuse and frighten ourselves.
You might get more help from him in the long run rather than the women psych! Bound like she doesn't know what she doing or not doing her job properly. Do you find she listens to you? 3 years and no diagnoses is really bad isn't it. I'm glad you spoke up and told him what she's like, because if you didn't how on earth she going to know she's done wrong!(and you got the brunt of her wrong doing) it's harder to talk to Dr when there young and good looking I find , even my age ha ha!
My anxiety was also brought on from depression again this time, it's the 3rd time I've gone through this horrible illness and each time it frightens the life out of me although I think this time was the worse as I've never had suicidal thought previously.

My psych told me at my last session if I wanted I could come of Ven on the condition that I had no relapse and felt good for 2 years but if I wanted there was no reason for me not to stay on it long term.

Hope you other peep are coping and getting through at the mo till you that big light at the end of the black tunnel.

Xx

[SADnomore]

Well done, Nicola, you did it! You walked through the pain despite your fear, and because of that, you have found a great pdoc in the process! I hope you can continue to see him for as long as needed. Try not to look backward. Some psychs choose not to "label" patients, as much as many of us prefer to know what we're dealing with. (I'm with you and Clio, personally.) However, I read where one fellow on NMP here was totally devastated with his diagnosis, so I can see why they may want to avoid that kind of thing. ... As for increased s/e now with the new increase, I have found them to be slight, actually. Being able to totally identify them as such really helps! It is only my third day, so I am not sure if they will remain mild or not, but I'm hopeful. I am getting the body tension and knots in the stomach (more like occasional tightness in the chest now than in the stomach), dry mouth, ringing in ears and dizziness, but it's not too bad. Nothing like startup was. A few bouts of exhaustion again, especially late afternoon. And at times I feel like I'm just plodding along putting one foot in front of the other. A bit numb emotionally, but I was like that during increases before, so I'm not worried about my mental state. In fact I find it reassuring. The same s/e came, eased off and the positive effects took hold each time, and they should again. Meanwhile, I am able to keep moving. I don't give anything too much thought, and just keep getting stuff done, which is obviously important. It's so good to not be constantly plagued with crippling teary sadness. Good to be able to function, and not be overwhelmed.

Thank you so much, Terry for all your helpful suggestions. I have found a good quality Omega 3 prep that I am taking now that I'm home again, as well as my Vitamin D drops. SO good to have these healthy alternatives as boosters. Just another couple months of the worst of the weather (-30 today with windchill). I will keep the supplements going after that though. :D

To the light at the end of the tunnel, yes, Clio! Onwards and upwards, to all of us! :bighug1:

Marie xx

[Michelle1]

Pleased your meeting went well nic, great post. Hope you have a good day today xx

[pulisa]

I can sense that huge surge of relief that you had a successful consultation and that the doctor was actually empathetic and decent! What a massive breakthrough for you!

My GP doesn't even think that ven withdrawal causes problems!:D Only it's not really funny.

Marie, I'm so glad you're so positive and are progressing really well. I wish ven had worked for my daughter but it didn't. Her complex mental health and autism are surely factors.

[SADnomore]

Pulisa, I can't believe how the docs still seem so completely resistant to the idea of s/e and withdrawal symptoms! It would help I'm sure, if they spent more time studying these, especially for drugs that they feel they can get behind and .try with patients. I wish ven had worked for your daughter, too. Getting her off of ven and hopefully, soon onto something that works better for her, that takes a lot of strength and determination. Meanwhile I'm glad the diazepam is helping her, it doesn't work for everyone. Venlaxafine has a short half-life, and they say that's why withdrawal from it is particularly hard. Forgive me I can't remember, but have you considered Prozac or another med with a long half-life as a stop-gap? I don't know how you feel about that. I have read about it as a suggestion for venlaxafine withdrawal. Usually a cross-taper to a long acting med like Prozac and then a slow, easier withdrawal from that. Just a thought. Same with the major tranquilizers, just a thought. If you could find one that helps her then maybe it could be continued more long term than the benzodiazapenes? I apologize if you have already been over this ground, my memory is not good. My fingers are crossed for more peace and happiness for you both soon.

Hope everyone is doing okay, I am drawing strength from your example, thanks so much.

Big hugs,
Marie

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Marie,

Both times I have been prescribed antidepressants for my initial development of anxiety and my later relapse (first Citalopram, second Duloxetine) my GP, when asked about side effects, said I may have some sweating and loose stools. Now thats pretty far off the mark in my opinion!

I've been reading some interesting articles about reduction after being prompted by MrAndy and Nicola and I was surprised to see both MIND and our Royal Board for our psychiatrists overhere stating it should be a 10% reduction if you've been on them a while and if its been years, it may take years to come off them! When I came off Citalopram it was 50% first then completely off and that was all over a couple of weeks. It didn't effect me too much but given SNRI's seems harder to get onto, I think I will be sitting in front of my GP with these articles in my hand ready next time! Cross tapering to a longer half life medication seems to be how they get around SNRI's.

Another question I have over Duloxetine is how it should be taken given its short half life. I see people taking ven at intervals because ven has an even shorter half life. But I take a 60mg dose once per day of Duloxetine and I've wondered whether this is correct.

Nicola - I'm really glad it went well, despite the emotion (maybe that was needed?). You got a good doctor there and the fact you had a diagnosis in one session when your psychiatrist can't give one after 3 years just tells me she is rubbish! Diagnosis is usually what the mecial profession like to obtain before treatment, or I thought they did!

I was reading on NICE's website about antidepressants in pregnancy due to that other thread on the HA board and it stated that there was no conclusive evidence that antidepressants had an effect on the baby (I think only MAOI's were a no-go). It had happened, but it could also happen without them and they took the view that whilst it is judged on an individual basis, the risk can be worth more than the risk of not treating a patient who's stress levels then cause issues anyway. So, GP's are just doing this more our of legal position in my opinion.

I didn't post the link with it being the HA board as it mentioned some of the complications and I thought that person may fixate on them as opposed to the rest of the guidance. I haven't posted it hear simply because I don't know if you have HA or whether it could effect your anxiety in any way or due to how you are feeling because of your miscarriage. If you want it, let me know and I'll post it.

[pulisa]

Marie, just to say that my daughter develops life-threatening neutropenia on all SSRIs. We would get phone calls in the middle of the night to alert us to the fact that she should be put into isolation and taken off them at once. I haven't mentioned this before as it's such a rare reaction and I didn't want to scaremonger. The SNRIs don't do this but they don't give her any relief or improvement in her mental health either. It's complicated!

[nicola1980]

Hi Terry, I would be interested to read it please if you don't mind posting, I don't suffer HA im just a dreadful googler :doh:xx

[nicola1980]

Hi everyone, well I've sat down tonight and read all the info the perinatal physc gave me on his diagnosis and I have to admit I can relate to all of the depression section aswell as some of the anxiety and panic, im going to call him tomorrow to discuss this as we agreed but I've decided I'm going to go with whatever treatment he suggests if I can, just reading thro I can see now I've not led a fully functioning life for over 3 years now and I owe it to my son and husband and the rest of my family to get well again. I'm absolutely petrified if I'm honest but something needs to be done, he spoke of augmenting another med with my ven just for the short term to help get me back on a functioning level, this of course means I won't beable to get pregnant which I'm finding quite hard to accept as my husband is 11 years older than me and I'm 35 next week so time isn't on our side but I'm fortunate to have my son and I will always remember my angel babies ♡ it's not a decision I've come to lightly but after my session with him on Tuesday I've finally accepted I need more help, I've fought this battle long enough now, im hoping I can find the girl I used to be 4 years ago, the girl my husband fell in love with and I know you guys will help me thro too XX

[pulisa]

Good for you, Nic and of course we will support you in whatever you decide to do. You seem to have found a psych who actually knows what he is talking about (makes a change) and he obviously has your best interests at heart. 35 is not old-can't even hear a clock remotely ticking-and getting you better mentally just paves the way towards welcoming a new addition when you will be in a better place psychologically. It's an exciting prospect for you and your family! That doesn't mean that you won't still feel grief from your recent bereavement but it does mean that there are great hopes for the future..

[nicola1980]

Thanks Pulisa that means alot, unfortunately he can't treat me personally as he's perinatal plus he's leaving in 6 weeks but he assured me he will get me the treatment I need I just needed to let him know what path I want to go down which I will do tomorrow then he will personally speak to my physc and Gp and put a plan in place hopefully.
How is your daughter now Pulisa?
Clio, Pulisa, Gav, Terry, Marie, Michelle and Pip thankyou for your support, i don't think you all actually realise how much it helps XX

[pulisa]

At least he'll tell your original psych what you have decided and what treatment he suggests so let's hope you soon have the opportunity to get on your new treatment plan? The good ones always move on, don't they?

My daughter is better than she was but still extremely fragile mentally. 12 days AD-free now. Just awaiting date for assessment with female autism expert. Thanks for asking-we're hanging on in there! xx

[nicola1980]

Fingers crossed she's getting over the worst of the ven withdrawal now. I hope you get some help as quickly as you can for her, she too deserves to be leading a functioning life, your doing a fantastic job XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Terry, I would be interested to read it please if you don't mind posting, I don't suffer HA im just a dreadful googler :doh:xx

Of course, here it is:

http://cks.nice.org.uk/depression-antenatal-and-postnatal#!scenario

Its probably worth reading the studies and making your own mind up. They may have not been carried out on many of them and we all know how these meds differ so until they do studies on the exact ones, it seems difficult to say they do in general.

Did he give reasons for why you shouldn't go for another pregnancy whilst trying the 2 meds? I would hope he had a good idea of all this as he seems good and its in his interests with him being in that field.

I wonder what our GP's are doing with children because antidepressants tend not to be licenced for them either as very few studies seem to have been carried out?

[pulisa]

GPs refer children to psychiatrists who are able to prescribe. This is where CAMHS units come into play- mental health set-ups for children/young people up to 18.

I hope GPs are never allowed to prescribe anti depressants to children.

[nicola1980]

Thanks Terry, he said I could take venlafaxine in pregnancy but he wouldn't advice it with whatever other meds he has in mind, i asked him to write them down for me but he refused as knew I would Google and scare myself which I would!! but hopefully I will find out soon enough XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Yeah, I agree on that one Pulisa...we already refer to them as 'sweeties'...we don't want the GP's doing it too!

Well Nicola, you know what to do about meds, ask on here. Just reading the PIL is enough to scare anyone and there are a lot of horror stories online but its a matter of giving it a go and seeing what happens. Remember, its your decision too though.

[nicola1980]

Well I tried to phone physc but he's not in until Monday so his secretary is going to get him to call me back. I managed to go out for breakfast with my mum, dad and sister as it was my mums birthday which I enjoyed but I just can't relax fully so I had mine and then went home and left them there, my home is like my safety net at the min, don't know if that's a good or bad thing? We've got a big family dinner out tomorrow night too so I'm hoping I can relax more for that but it's progress as since December I wouldn't have been able to even go out for breakfast until now. I can now go shopping on my own too without having to drag my husband with me but I still don't feel im living a fully functioning life like I was but when you've been so poorly mentally it takes time doesn't it? XX

---------- Post added at 21:33 ---------- Previous post was at 21:30 ----------

Michelle how are you getting on with the ven? Has it kicked in for you yet?

---------- Post added at 21:36 ---------- Previous post was at 21:33 ----------

Marie how's the ven increase going? Is it 300mg your aiming for? XX

[pulisa]

I think you've done really well, Nic. Don't expect too much of yourself-it's very much early days still and you are only just over a major setback. Take it as it comes tomorrow-just being there will be an achievement and it doesn't matter how long you are able to be there before going home. Quality not quantity after all! Family gatherings can be hard especially when you're vulnerable.

Hope it goes as well as possible tomorrow. At least you will be able to spend time outside if you need some fresh air or some time alone? xx

[nicola1980]

Thanks Pulisa I think I just get a bit overwhelmed when places start get busy but as there's quite a few of us going tomorrow hopefully that will take my mind off it, I try to run before I can walk sometimes!! XX

[pulisa]

My advice would be to take it as it comes and don't think about it too much tonight. I'm sure your family are supportive so they will be pleased just to have you with them. Best wishes for tomorrow and remember to pace yourself!xx

[Michelle1]

Hi Nic

Hope things go well for you tonight.

Well I am 3 and a half weeks in to being back on Ven. Pleased to say I can already see some improvements. It is def helping with my anxiety and has made me more clear headed. Not so many thoughts running through my head at the same time so I am more focused.

Still got some side effects but they are bareable. Very dry mouth especially first thing on a morning. Very weired dreams every single night that seem to go on for hours a bit like watching a film. Sickness has gone now but still feel tired mid afternoon usually take a small nap about 2pm. Still not sleeping through the night waking 2 or 3 times but not in an anxious state I'm very calm and usually I can get back to sleep again but waking early maybe about 6am. But this is good compared with how I was before Ven. I was maybe getting 2/3 hrs sleep a night and in a constant state of terror during the night. All in all even in 3 weeks I can see vast improvements. My brain needs Ven to operate and function in a normal way. I accept that now.

Terry hope you are keeping well. Your vast knowledge is amazing and so helpful to everyone on this site. I think sometimes we know better than the doctors when it comes to meds because we are the ones that take them.

I feel like I know Ven inside out over the last 15 years of being on and off it. It's great how we can share our knowledge and experience to help others going through the same problems we have.

Pulisa hope your daughter is ok and with withdrawl symptoms are subsiding a bit. Your doing a fantastic job.

Hope everyone has a good day. I'm taking my daughter prom dress shopping today which I couldn't of done 3 weeks ago.

Michelle xx

[MyNameIsTerry]

Its still a step forward Nicola and thats the important to thing. Initially it has been difficult to stay in that situation so work towards extending it and then you will find it much easier.

I know what meals and get togethers are like. Running up to my relapse I started to panic eating out on work team meals and this has made it hard ever since. I've done a load of them and some times they have been ok but if I've not slept or am having a bad anxiety day, they are really tough for me.

Its strange, you start eating and then it builds. I guess its a fear of panicking or being sick.

I hope things go well for you and who knows, you may have some fun!

[pulisa]

Enjoy your day, Michelle and I'm really pleased that you are feeling better.

My daughter managed to sleep without diazepam last night-yesterday was a better day for her. Nearly 14 days ven-free now. It's been awful but maybe things will improve now?

This discontinuation syndrome is worrying and raises the question of addiction. These drugs are powerful and shouldn't be prescribed so freely. Not nearly enough information is disclosed about them by the manufacturers and you can see why..

[MyNameIsTerry]

Pulisa - I know, I get the impression that SSRI's came more out of a need to replace the older ones than for our benefit, a sort of "not great but just good enough".

When I relapsed my GP asked if it was more anxiety than depression and if I was in the better place I am now I would have laughed and being a bit stern with him because I've always been suffering with anxiety and I only started having depression from the side effects of Citalopram! He insisted on signing me off with depression for a while and since my employer wasn't very bothered, I couldn't be bothered to address it. So, rather than give me Citalopram he said there are these newer ones more geared towards anxiety called SNRI's and dished out the Duloxetine. I still knew very little back then so just accepted it.

Whether I would have now, I'm less sure because the science seems to suggest SNRI's are little better if at all than SSRI's anyway and they have worse side effects. I also can't quite get my head around of medication that allows more adrenaline to be reused in a patient with a condition that is largely about having too much adrenaline.

After reading MrAndy's info on reducing at 10%, as my GP went for 50% then nothing over 2 weeks when I came of Citalopram which worries me when it comes to Duloxetine, I can see that other people on my med have started breaking open the capsules and counting the beads (around 150-180 in a capsule!!!) to get a staggered reduction because the manufacturer only makes 30 & 60mg! There is a generic doing 20mg as well and these have smaller tablets inside the capsules (why?) so it seems 10% isn't even possible for mine and its all or nothing or start making your own capsules with the bed counting method! I could even find psychiatrists stating to break open and count them.

So, its clear that there is an issue there because even the pros are saying to go for 10% but no one makes them in sizes to allow for it. So, they don't seem to even understand the withdrawal issue on these and no one is kicking them to produce different sizes to allow for it.

I'm glad your daughter has had a better day and slept better. That must have been quite a relief! I think its likely you are through the storm now and hopefully it will be just up & down but more less downs as it leaves her system.

I don't know whether there is a difference between addiction and discontinuation syndrome. Maybe DS was coined simply to separate it so people don't think of narcotics?

Michelle - thanks, I appreciate that. When people raise questions, I often like the read about it further and it often comes in useful later. A few years back, I had no clue on any of this and trusted my GP to do the best...which is not ideal with these conditions!

I'm having a wobble the last 2 days but I get this and have been ever since I went on Duloxetine. So, hoepfully it will pass in a day or so.

It does sound like you know a hell of a lot about ven so I'm sure a lot of people on here will be appreciating your posts. Its definately as you say about meds, I've found out far more on here and not all of us can get to a psychiatrist as our GP's like to block access, well mine tries to deter it anyway. There are some sites that are very anti med and those are full of horror stories which just scare people but this place is far more realistic with no agendas.

Have a nice day with your daughter. I bet she is very happy to have you up and about to help her find a dress (or at least bring the cash :winks::D...no, of course she wants you there, she must have been worried about you and this will give her some relief too! :))

[pulisa]

Terry, just keep on posting and let us help you with your "down" days too. You do far too much for others without letting on regarding your own complex difficulties.

My daughter's psych said counting the beads was pointless as the efficacy of the drug would be compromised if reducing the dosage was based on this-something about absorption issues. Yes, she was on duloxetine 60mg too but it was reduced to 30mg and then she was straight switched to venlafaxine. Neither drugs have done anything remotely positive-the opposite in fact but obviously my daughter is a complex case.

Wishing everyone a decent day-we all deserve a bit of a break!

[MyNameIsTerry]

Did she have big problems going from 30-60mg? I had the problems Nicola had moving to this but it wasn't too bad going onto 30mg and I remember reading that the noepinephrine kicked in at 60mg, just as it does on ven at the dose Nicola was moving to. I know another member on Duloxetine and he really struggled with the 30mg so god knows how he would cope with the 60mg but some people have raised threads stating they have had very few issues. Its just such a minefield...its like we need our genes checking first!

I didn't know that about the beads. I guess its one to investigate thoroughly when the time comes. Maybe reducing 10% isn't really 10% as so much is wasted so without factoring that in you end up with a harsher drop than you think?

Thanks, I appreciate that. I do tend to post on Pingu's thread about stuff but will on here too. I just struggle with this cycling on/off issue as its hard to plan ahead or maintain a normal life when it just comes without any triggers. It always goes but you know whats its like, it knocks you back as its like experiencing those bad days from the worst times all over again. I know in my head that its not that bad, its just I don;t think you can fully appreciate how bad things were back in your worst days as it was just so hard to describe how it felt.

Have a good day everyone!

[Michelle1]

Thank you Pulisa, yes we had a good day and managed to purchase the perfect prom dress. It was nice to get out and about. I know I still have some way to go and I'm not myself but these little mile stones all help to re build self confidence. And yes your right terry it does my daughter the world of good to see her mum going out and doing normal every day things other people take for granted. She has seen me very poorly in the past and even admitted to me today she wasn't sure I would make it. But I pushed myself and I feel all the better for going.

Your right Pulisa about these drugs being prescribed a bit too freely by some gps. If I could turn the clock back and was told the true facts and implications of taking these drugs I would of explored all other avenues first. Especially the paxil and venlafaxine because nothing was disclosed to me about the withdrawl effects.

I'm pleased your daughter is feeling a bit more settled. The first two weeks are very distressing. I hope she is over the worst. Withdrawl can take many months and years to fully get over.

Terry when I withdrew from duloxitine I was one of those who opened the capsual and measured out the beads. I know it's not ideal and I totally agree they should make the preparation in smaller mgs especially when duloxitine is only in 30 mgs and 60 mgs. 30 to zero is too big a drop in my opinion.

With Ven I find the instant release better for my illness and it's always that bit easier to get off when your on the instant release formula. Still it has to be done very slowly and the lowest dose of 37.5 I broke down into halves and then quarters.

The take a dose miss a dose is a big no no. It doesn't work. I can't understand why GPS still say this to patients. The only ad it might work for is prozac because of the long half life.

I heard of one gp who took Ven herself and had such a hard time coming off she now refuses to prescribe it. If more doctors took some of these drugs themselves they would think twice about prescribing them.

In my opinion if you can afford to pay for a physiatrist it's worth every penny. I have a good friend who is a physicatrist and he gets so frustrated at how gps prescribe these drugs without fully understanding the implications.

[pulisa]

I don't think GPs should be allowed to prescribe alternatives if the first choice "basic" anti depressants fail to work after 6-8 weeks. I'm sure in years to come SSRIs and SNRIs will be regarded in the same way as benzos are now ie addictive and dangerous and there will be a whole new way of dealing with mental health problems?

Probably our brains will be scanned and a computer will prescribe the best medication based on data received. Serotonin imbalances will probably be mocked and some bright spark will have formulated medication which increase/decreases in the body according to need....

Oh well, we'll just have to make do with those already plying their trade in the dubious world of psychiatry/psychology!:D At least we can compare notes on here!

Glad to hear that you had a successful day, Michelle! Great news and well done! I'm not "allowed" to show any signs of stress with my daughter as she's terrified when things change. It's tricky during my agitation phases but I just have to explain that I will come out the other end unscathed. Over the last few years as things have worsened for her she now knows how I have been feeling...

Terry I do admire how strong you are despite everything and how caring you are to others. I hope that your positive days soon outnumber the not so good ones.

[nicola1980]

Hi everyone, Michelle im so pleased your feeling a bit better, i know what you mean about the vivid dreams, mine are weird and like you said it's like I'm watching a film, sometimes they really distress me too like I keep thinking about what I dreamt last night as it was so strange! With you taking the instant release do you take it twice a day then? I started on the instant release then swapped to the slow release altho I literally had to beg for it as apparently it's very expensive to prescribe! Hope you continue to feel better, it's such a long road isn't it?
Terry im sorry to read your having a bad few days but remember it will pass it's just a blip but if your anything like me I panic when I get them! Even when I was doing well last year I used to have the odd bad few days and they really unsettled you don't you? Has anything happened to bring it on? I'm a worrier so I whittle about things and make myself bad I think! Hopefully it will pass for you really soon.
Pulisa im pleased your daughter had a better day, it must have been a relief for you too, hopefully she will be over the withdrawal soon and you can get her the help you both deserve.
I've had a wobbly day today, as I said before im having really weird dreams and lasts nights really freaked me out so been focusing on that all day, i had to resort to half a 2mg of Diazepam at lunchtime as needed to take my son to the hairdressers and was all shaky and overthinking things, i was fine whilst I was out altho I tend to rush everywhere now tho so I can get home again, I flew round Morrisons literally throwing stuff in my trolley with hubby and son practically running behind me!! I managed the meal out but wasn't very relaxing as my 1 yr old niece kept wanting me to take her to the play area so I was up and down like a yo yo then she wouldn't sit in her highchair so I had her on my knee whilst trying to eat my dinner....that didn't work too well as you can imagine lol but she cheers me up bless her, she was a surprise baby and really has brought alot of joy into our life's, she's very spoilt tho but I'm to blame alot for that too!! I'm now having a lie down on the sofa but my minds still in overdrive Argh it drives you mad!! XX

[SADnomore]

Hi, all!

Nicola, you're doing famously; I just know that between you and the psych you'll get back to that girl! Your courage is an inspiration, and your family is rooting for you. So are we, honey. Despite "the monkeys", you are keeping your commitments and getting through! Big hugs! Better days are ahead, just keep going ... :bighug1:

Yes, it is 300 mg that I'm shooting for now, and I've had more positives than negatives this past week with the increase to 262 mg., including a sharpening of memory again, which I am loving! I wrote a grocery list yesterday but left it at home. BUT, as I walked around the store, I remembered everything I needed, which was very heartening to me. I'm also finding myself visualizing what I last did with something I've misplaced as I start to search for it, and that has me over the moon! For so long now, years in fact, I have been so forgetful that I had resigned myself to Alzheimers, and not having anyone I can trust to be there for me is where my mind was taking me at my worst in depression. Now I'm starting to have real hope that it has just been the depression and anxiety all along! Which means that with treatment, I can look forward to aging normally, a huge relief. I've decided to go ahead with the last 37.5 mg increase now, starting tonight. Fingers crossed!

Like you, Michelle, I too believe that my brain needs venlaxafine to function properly. It is SO good to hear that it still works for you after all these years! After nearly a year on it, I can say that the side effects are well worth it, start-up time passes quickly and the results get better and better. People are different though, and some people are especially sensitive to side effects. I think I'm somewhere in the middle ... Thanks for sharing your experience. I am more confident I probably don't need to worry about poop out after all. Unfortunately, for many people ven works counterproductively, and for some it just quits working. But for others it works pretty much from right after startup and never quits. I'm going to be optimistic that that's me. It's probably all down to our different genes, as Terry says. ... My big congrats on the grad dress, and your daughter's grad. Such a great time to look forward to, and being well for!

Keep the faith there will be something more to help your daughter, Pulisa. Such a great thing that she could sleep without the diazepam! Very intuitive of you to have allowed her to go to bed without it to see if she could manage. It must be a relief to have ven's contrary effects abating for her. ... A few people on here have talked about a couple of anti-psychotics that they have used in very, very tiny doses, and said it helped them to break free of the anxiety that would prevent them from sleeping, plus it seemed to help them feel calmer overall during the day. And for some, the older antidepressants (now sometimes called major tranquilizers) may be tolerated at one time or another. They fell out of favour more because of their side effects such as sedation, than their efficacy. They're still considered safe and effective, just not first line anymore, I've been told. And then there are the drugs for ADD, some of which are stimulants. Obviously they have the opposite effect in these patients ... Here in Alberta, Canada, I've been told that we have specialized therapy programs for autism that are reportedly having very good results. I remember neighbours we had in BC who moved from there to Red Deer, Alberta for treatment for their daughter. I wish I knew more, but I heard nothing further from them once they moved and we moved later on. Perhaps these programs will have online access to doctors? The cost is covered here, by our health care services in the province, and since they constantly look for ways to cut costs, I imagine if they hadn't proven themselves they wouldn't have been funded. Somewhere is the answer for you and your daughter. I know you won't give up until you find it. You are an amazing mom!

You know, Terry, I think that for me, anxiety has stemmed from my depression, not the other way around. Maybe that's why the higher doses of ven continue to lift the depression and then I feel less, not more, anxious? I agree, it is hard to figure out why it would act that way. It's counterintuitive, isn't it? Still, the extra norepinephrine/adrenaline seems to be activating my brain to work better, rather than to go into overdrive. ... Regardless of which came first though, the hopelessness we feel some days is exactly the same. We've been up and we've been down. And you have been there ready with an ear, and all kinds of helpful suggestions. As the others have said, please do keep posting, let us help if we can. I think it is key that you brought up lack of sleep leading to anxiety, because of course you are still struggling to get your schedule on track. It will improve as you get your days turned around and sleep at night, and for enough hours to make the difference. That, and feeling a part of normal daytime doings will help so much. It is bound to! Myself, I take a sleep aid for a sleep disorder, it is quite short-acting. I have no doubt that my sleep would have slid around just as yours has otherwise.

My conclusion on the question of addiction vs antidepressants' discontinuation syndrome is that with true addiction, tolerance builds quickly. It is only by jumping through hoops that an addicted person will be able to "ostensibly" stick with the prescribed dose the doctor has ordered. Measures like seeing more than one doctor/making emergency room visits for extra doses/substituting with alcohol or other substances. Even restricting food in order to get more effects or get those effects more quickly. Meanwhile, their lives will revolve around the drugs. Getting the drug, using, getting more. Doing whatever that takes. When that happens, I'm betting there is more going on than your typical (or atypical) antidepressant. I think when it comes to venlaxafine, you put your finger on the problem with venlaxafine in particular. Because it has a very short half-life, withdrawal happens quickly. Even missing one day will usually start symptoms. I have heard that antihistamines help with withdrawal, because ven's effects like dry-mouth and nasal passages will be reversed then, along with "flu-like symptoms". The fact being that it doesn't work for everyone, it seems logical that there needs to be more hands-on guidance for withdrawal. A real, doctor-assisted plan. I hope it happens soon.

Thanks for your support. It is amazing, isn't it, how these forums help us in ways we don't get anywhere else?
:D

Marie xoxo

[MyNameIsTerry]

Marie - I know what you mean about memory, mines ok but I do find recalling certain words difficult and sometimes my thinking seems a bit slowed. At the moment its hard to determine what is more lack of sleep and what it the rest though. My sleep slipped more out of obsession than inability. I can usually go to sleep quickly, I just find it hard to go to bed and I find it very hard to get up earlier as I'm exhausted thesedays when I wake. Because I spend my time in darkness, it does worry me that this is having an impact and it makes me wonder about using these medications in this type of cycle.

I'm glad things are improving for you. Hopefully the weather will too! Are you going to reduce your ven when the season changes and then do this again next winter?

I'm probably not the best person to compare too as I think I am very symptom focussed and maybe there is a connection there? I had plenty of troubling getting onto Citalopram the first time. I would love to not focus on my physical sensations as its one of my biggies and this on top of the thinking issues/obsessions is hard to work through. I'm just trying to say to myself that changing will just mean the same symptoms are there and they will be there even if I don't change but its damn hard. I wonder how this ties into my OCD because I did a lot of rituals due to heightened anxiety but they didn't really reduce it a lot of the time.

It makes sense about addiction. I think that there is a less physical form of dependence when it comes to antidepressants, more born out of not wanting the anxiety back.

Pulisa - thanks, I really appreciate that. Sometimes it helps being able to concentrate on others for a while as it cuts down on the internalising we do.

I often think GP's shouldn't be prescribing them at all and it should be a referral to determine the correct meds and the GP just signs the repeats once stable...a bit like with complex physical issues where you see a consultant.

Nicola - thanks. I think it might have been some rougher than normal sleep but I'm starting to get a bit worried about how I am paying more attention to symptoms since Xmas. Its been 3 days now so it normally disappears or may go an extra day. A lot of the time there is literally no trigger though. Maybe its the routines that feed it but I normally find that causes more depression from being sick of it. It does reduce me though as its an unpleasant experience and a reminder of far worse times so I'm like you there!

There will be other opportunities to test how you feel in those situations, build up to it now with the smaller outings and then when it happens again, it should hopefully be less of an issue for you.

Michelle - I'm glad things went well, those little reminders can make a big difference and they can spiral into other healthy days out too. I bet its been hard on your daughter seeing you like this over the years but when you start on your recovery again she will remember how much better you have been when recovering before.

I'm glad to hear that about this doctor. The trouble is, thinking you know how anxiety really feels by relating it to stresses all people feel is like a GP comparing a broken leg when they have never had one to a twisted ankle.

[pulisa]

Terry, have you done any research on valdoxan? I'm sure you have and my daughter tried it with little effect but just thought I would mention it.

My daughter has very strict sleep routines and stays conscious as long as she can at night in order to avoid waking up early in the morning. She will fight sleep until it comes to the accepted hour (the early hours)

Marie, I wish you well with your increased dose and it's obvious that ven is really suiting you. I'd be wary about reducing to 75mg too quickly but I'm sure you are aware of this. It's getting off the lower doses which has proved so difficult for us though and I think this is a common problem with ven?

We've been offered olanzapine and carbamazepine as add-ons to the AD but I'm not keen to go down that route with all the known side effects. She'd hate to put on weight and already has issues with BDD and I think things would get worse rather than better. Having seen for myself what ADHD drugs do to people I'd say no to them as well. I'm just not confident that medication is the answer for my daughter but I do appreciate your kindness and concern, Marie.

Terry your sleep issues are so complex being OCD-led. You'd be fine in Australia though! It's no laughing matter but if you did live in Australia would you adopt the same night waking/day sleeping schedule? Is it easier for you to be awake at night when things are quieter? If you could start from "scratch" would you revert back to a normal circadian routine with huge relief?

[MyNameIsTerry]

Thanks Pulisa, I don't know much about medicationas my experience has been very limited and I have a GP who isn't confident with it. I remember him once saying he wouldn't prescribe above standard doses without a psychiatrist being involved but you can't access one of them for ages...unless I offered to pay which was a bit of an eyebrow raiser! I wasn't after an increase, it was just something he was talking about with the various meds. I don't know how this works but I can't see why a GP can't either ask for advice through his own network in the NHS or submit a referral for a medication review with a psychiatrist because right now, a psychiatrist is a Level 4 thing around here so anything up to a 12 month wait for help as you only get an assessment before that!

That looks an interesting new drug, especially the coming off part.

I think my issue is not actually sleep so there is a possibility that correcting it will just see if slip all over again. I have toyed with just scrapping the night completely but I suspect I will just stay up until the same time and have lost the night. Its a strange issue and I probably need to do some Googling on it. MrAndy gave me a lead to a sleep disorder but I had a thorough read about it and found that it doesn't apply to me because whilst I exhibit the symptoms on that, I can sleep fine so its not that I'm staying up longer to make myself sleep because I will be more tired. In fact, I have managed about 5 separate nights so far since the end of January where I went to bed about 7 hours earlier. Because I am not sleeping, I ended up sleeping all the way through to normal time and the more I did it, the less sleep disturbance it gave me. I normally don;t have much if any sleep disturbance as I get so little anyway.

I guess I could go to Oz and then come back a couple of years later when it reverted back to UK time. :D

I remember this all started out of insomnia about 8 years ago. When I returned to work, I was starting late and moved it forward a lot. I could get in for earlier meetings if needed as well as time went by without it affecting me.

This time around its slightly different and not about insomnia. I can't quite understand it but I think it has something to do with feelings of dread over the unkown eg move it forward and what would you do with the time? I try to rationalise this by saying its the same 24 hours but its got out of hand and now I'm sleeping about 5 hours a night and still trying to stay up later than that.

It does cause me problems at home which get me down but for some reason something is holding me back. The strange thing is, I want to do the things I did but its like something inside me if telling me I couldn't do even things I did a couple of months ago before if shifted even worse.

I guess when I get it back to normal times, I need to keep it there and not let it slip for a certain amount of time so that it becomes normal to work that way.

It doesn't bother me about it being quiter, I don't mind eitherway. Some of my worst periods with anxiety have been earlier in the day when it was unbearable so maybe thats also in my mind that returning to those times would bring that back. The strange thing is, because of how bad things are now I'm actually up during that time and I find I'm less anxious nearer to my bedtime.

[pulisa]

You're doing all this on your own, Terry with not even minimal input from your GP. You must be mentally and exhausted just dealing with the intrusive thoughts and trying to find a way to make things more manageable. OCD in itself is totally overwhelming and can cloud every waking minute as you know only too well-I'm not surprised that you feel less anxious as you near your bedtime.

I would have thought that your sufferings merit a referral to a Consultant as you have far more to contend with than most seeing a GP for mental health concerns and your difficulties are far from "routine". Would you actually want to be referred to a psych or do you prefer to do your own research?

[Michelle1]

Morning everyone. Just to let you know I am finding this website so helpful and encouraging us all sharing our personal experiences and encouraging each other through the good and the bad. Sometimes living with this illness is like living in a bubble and feeling very isolated but speaking with like minded people is so helpful.

Nic, yes I find the instant release works best for my illness. I am fortunate in the fact small doses work better for me than larger doses. All I am taking is 37.5mgs split into two. First half taken at about 7am and second half taken at 5pm. If I need to I will increase to 37.5 x 2 but at the moment I am seeing great improvement just on this low dose.

Marie yes take comfort that it has never pooped out on me in the 15 years I have been on and off. All I would say is that my illness is significantly worse each time I do come off which is so worrying to me. I end up with anxiety disorders and physical and mental problems I never had before. However upon start up again these mostly disappear. That's why I have resigned myself to staying on a low dose for life. My quality of life is so poor off the meds, I have decided to continue taking them. Also one thing my pdoc told me which is true in my case is when I have withdrawn from Ven and then had to reinstate it months later my brain recognises the drug and my recovery is so much quicker than that of someone who is starting from scratch on this drug. Just over 3 weeks in and last night I slept all the way through the night for the first time in months. I also woke up with zero anxiety this morning I can't remember the last time that happened. Just goes to show my brain does need this medication even in such a low dose.

Yes terry my daughter has seen me in some bad ways in the past. The worst being in 2009 a year I will never forget. I have a lot of guilt about her seeing me in this way but with this illness it is not something you can hide from those you live with. She has also seen me healthy and at my darkest most miserable times I always tell her I will get through this. You have seen me get better and you know I can. And I always have done. My worst time in 2009 I tried too long to battle on without medication thinking I could do it alone. I went to the gym daily, are only healthy foods, read self help books, took vitamins and suppliments and tried everything to get well naturally well I ended up having my worst breakdown and because I left it so long to get help it took so much longer to get well again. I was bed ridden for Mths. My mum moved from Spain to stay at my home, I couldn't be alone on a night time. I had numerous panic attacks each and every day and had a pdoc come to my home once a week for months. I ended up being off work over a year. So now when I spot the symptoms returning I know I have to get help quick. The quicker you get the help the quicker your recovery.

I would never recommend anyone to start Ven or any ad in fact. I would always say see a mental health specialist and get a full assessment. Ven can be a very good drug if that is what you need but it also has it's faults. You should way up the pro and the cons from a specialist.

Terry, I have had both private pdoc and also on the Nhs. When I used the Nhs my gp referred me to a physicatrist consultant and I was in within 8 weeks. 12 Mths is unacceptable. I do agree some gps do try to block access and that's when it's a good idea to swap gps or pay to go private if this is an option.

I do hope you get the help you need soon as you help so many other people.
Hope everybody continues to update their stories and thanks again for all your encouraging words.

Michelle xx

[MyNameIsTerry]

I've been down the CBT route so far but it just didn't work for me, I struggled with certain hurdles although I got past them later carrying on with with they taught me.

I don't mind who I see really if they can help. My GP practice is one of the typical 'conveyor belt' ones where you are in & out in 5 minutes. My appointments are afternoon double slots which is still only 10 Minutes. So, there is very little time to discuss anything and its the usual questions about medication being taken, sick notes, etc.

I don't mind researching things but it's come more from having little help really.

My GP has said he doesn't think the next level is appropriate but I wondered whether this was more about money and number of referrals because his excuse was that they cause more problems than they solve and I don't believe that especially since until NICE started up the stepped care model they were the only people you could get help from. So, this left me on my own and I haven't been back for 18 months now when I should have been going every month to two months. He hasn't noticed obviously.

Its always been a good practice for physical stuff but when it became mental health they just seem behind the times.

I also don't think he fully appreciates the situation as the therapist was sending him reports yet he still doesn't seem to realise about the OCD so I suspect he hasn't read them as his opinion contradicted them a few times throughout therapy.

I guess it comes down to kicking him if I want to get to the next level but with the sleep issues worsening its become hard to get to anything.

[pulisa]

Michelle is right-12 months wait is both unacceptable and inappropriate. You have many complex issues with which you need expert help and guidance (not from some run-of-the-mill GP who hasn't the time for mental health "stuff"). It's obvious that you are truly suffering from these horrible afflictions and are spending most of your time trying to battle them but in the process things are very very difficult for you. Level 4, my arse! It's time these quacks tore up their NICE guidelines and truly appreciated what their patients were trying to communicate to them..

[nicola1980]

12 months is absolutely ridiculous, when I was referred to the physc I was seen just after a week so I know it can be done, i was in a very bad way tho as my Gp just kept throwing different AD's at me to try which failed, I've been offered therapy but I'll be honest I'm very skeptical of it, I think you have to believe that it would help and unfortunately I don't. Terry I hope you start feeling better soon, sometimes there isn't always a trigger it's just the nature of this awful illness, im not a fan of weekends at the min because I like routine too, im moping around today still in my dressing gown!
Michelle you sound so much better which is fantastic, you mentioned the vivid dreams? Mine have been alot worse since my increase and there really starting to freak me out did you find they wear off or is it a permanent fixture with ven?
Marie im so pleased your increase is going well you seem to tolerate ven very well which is great, you say you will withdraw down in the summer? What dose will you go down too?
Pulisa I don't know if you've said before but has your daughter tried tricyclic AD's? I know there not used much now but I have heard they are quite effective, sorry if we've already covered this my memory isn't what it used to be at the min!! XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

I know, its crazy.

When I first started with GAD 8 years ago my GP made a referral to these guys who are still the Level 4 service now and it took 10 weeks for a guy to come out and do a consultation. This guy clearly had no idea as he said he had nedver heard of the internal buzzing issue and tingling in limbs, both very common anxiety symptoms! He then told me it would be 12 months to be seen for any help.

When I relapsed I had a referral into the CBT guys and had to complain about the service because they insisted new patients had to start at Level 2 and couldn't have CBT at Level 3 until they went through it. I did that I was desperate for any help and then at the end of the Level 2 was told I had to wait 3 months as a standard delay for Level 3. So, I complained to my GP because it took 90 days to be seen when the service level is 30 days and then they told me Level 2 wasn't sufficient anyway so I asked why I wasn't put in the queue at that point and Level 2 used as a stopgap. This is a misunderstanding of NICE guidelines because MIND don't do that, you can go straight in at Level 3 as proven by a member on here recently so I suspect they use that as a way to manage their numbers but thats completely unfair on patients.

My GP then referred me to the Level 4 guys but wasn't confident it would be quicker and the other guys had already told me they would be a much longer wait anyway. A very helpeful lady from the Level 4 told me it was unfortunately the reality in my area but she put pressure on the other guys who first stated they couldn't do anything any quicker...but the next day I had a call giving me my first appointment in 2 weeks time! I wasn't queue jumping, I don't want to disadvantage someone else but I had a 60 day delay and wasn't put in the queue during those 5 weeks of Level 2 which was the equivalent of a 3 month delay anyway.

It was exactly what I didn't need when I had come from a job where you spent most of your time dealing with red tape, incompetence and poor processes.

I guess I have a difficult time ahead in adjusting my sleep so that I can put pressure on my GP for further help. Its a bit tricky right now as my sleep is right through the afternoon when he is in and I want to move the sleep so that I'm sleeping more in the mornings so that I can start to get back out earlier. I'm just finding this change really hard but if I can do it, it opens up other opportunities and ways to break up my week as well as get into a local charity for anxiety & depression which I attended before. I'm also concerned that right now I may find it hard to fit in therapy sessions because of how I am sleeping through other peoples working days. This sometimes makes me feel quite trapped and lost if I'm honest. Its not good for self confidence and self esteem.

Nicola - I know what you mean about routines and the weekend. I went through all that for a while, bank holidays too. Xmas was very hard at first. I became dependent on a certain routine of walking and going in places and these days would prevent this so I found it hard to adjust.

Pulisa - NICE stepped care has actually got me help that I couldn't access last time but I do agree with you because I believe some of them hide behind these guidelines and force everyone into CBT whether its going to work for them or not. I think a lot of that is coming from a more senior source in the NHS though in an attempt to 'number shuffle' like they always do with benefits eg shove everyone over X months on the dole into a 'workgroup', hence no longer an issue for a bit! Mt case shows how NICE guidelines are misused by bureaucrats but until they pump more cash into Level 4 style services or expand what the lower levels do, we seem to be stuck waiting for years.

When I went through all that I told my GP that I would go private if I needed but I'm wary of this now as its an unregulated industry and it can be very expensive.

I know a lot of people think the NHS is great compared to private healthcare in other countries but I just can't see it for mental health.

[Michelle1]

Hi All,

How's everyone today? Terry I think you need to explain to your gp exactly how your illness is impacting on your life and demand ( I know it's a strong word ) to be referred to a specialist consultant. I think you have battled through your illness long enough without the proper support you deserve.

Nic, dreams..... Yes on Ven they are very vivid and very strange sometimes scary and stay with you even when you wake up. I always have got them whenever I've been on Ven. I do find they settle down once you are stable. But start up, increases and decreases in dose and withdrawl are the worst times I have these awful dreams. When the dreams stop I know I'm starting to get better. They are typical anxious dreams. Last night for example my dream was I was standing on a large stage presenting the Brits :-) but the auto queue wasn't working and everyone was staring at me and I didn't know what to do. They are very real and seem to go on for hours. Once I woke up mid dream had my eyes open but the dream was still playing out in my head. It's like being on a bad trip.
It's only 4 weeks in on Wednesday so I'm hoping they will calm down as my body readjusts to the meds but I'm only on 37.5 so it shows how powerful this medication is even at a low dose.

Today has not been a great day for me anxiety wise but I'm putting it down to the fact I'm at work tomorrow in a sickness absence meeting and I'm working myself up about it (silly how small things can affect us in a big way).

I'm also spending a lot of time on google looking up stories about Ven I don't know why I'm doing this as I've been on it a lot over the years so I don't know why I feel the need to read other peoples experiences. There are so many horror stories on here and other web pages it makes me question taking the drug, which is stupid because I know it works for me. Hope that makes sense? I need to keep off google for a while. Xx

[nicola1980]

Hi all, Terry I agree with Michelle, i think you should insist on being referred, it's absolute nonsense that you have to wait 12 months, I've known many people get referred and seen well before that, dont just struggle thro and Gps don't know enough about mental illness in my opinion to treat everyone, my own Gp admitted to me he didn't know hardly anything about ven!! The cycling of mood is awful, i still get it and it really wears me down, sometimes I wonder if I will ever fully recover altho this new physc I saw last week was confident I would but it just zaps all your confidence.
Michelle step away from Dr Google!! I'm a fine one to talk tho as I'm a bugger for Googling meds and I end up scaring the life out of myself!! My dreams have certainly got worse since my increase 6 weeks ago, im reluctant to go to bed at night as I don't want to have them, I've been forcing myself to stay up until nearly 12 which is unheard of for me because there really scaring me, i can even wake up during the dream and then go back to it! Last night wasn't as bad so I'm hoping they will settle, i know a few others on ven and they don't suffer them. Sorry to hear you've had a bad day but it's still early days and look what you achieved at the weekend, you couldn't have done that a week ago. Do you have to go to work tomorrow? Is there no way you can explain to them that your not well enough yet?
Pulisa how is your daughter doing?
I'm still waiting for the new physc to phone me back, I've phoned again today, he's very busy tho running the perinatal ward aswell as his outpatients so I guess I need to be patient XX

---------- Post added at 18:57 ---------- Previous post was at 18:03 ----------

Marie how is your increase going? xx

[SADnomore]

Hi all!

Hang in there Michelle, it gets better as you know! Nic, you're doing fab, and the dreams do subside no worries. Fingers crossed for that call soon. Terry, please do get yourself treated, again and better this time. Sometimes we have to act as our own advocate, even when we are ill. Those people are in place and being paid to help, and you have every right to it, asap! Here in my town, where all the pdocs fly up to see patients and have very limited office hours, they do take turns at the hospital visiting patients there. I was told that if I wanted prompt help that only a psychiatrist can provide, then to just go into emerg and tell them that I don't feel safe to be alone and at home without mental help. That I have found myself at my rope's end, and am concerned about what might happen next. Don't feel I can trust myself to keep myself safe. Even voice concerns about hurting myself if it doesn't sound as though I will be admitted. At that point, I was told, they will admit me. Once on the psych floor, then I will definitely be visited by a pdoc and a plan for treatment will be done. ... It doesn't have to really be "that bad", Terry, this is about doing what it takes to see a psychiatrist when you need one. No more waiting! At least consider this work-around of a system that's broken, okay love?

A quick report on me, yes thanks for asking. For anyone wondering what the ven high dose can be like if it seems that you might need it: Increase-side effects so far, since going to 300 mg are nothing new, thankfully. A bit of body tension again and needing to do deep breathing a few times, especially when the stomach and chest muscles briefly tighten up from time to time. A few long slow deep breaths, inhale fully, exhale fully, settles things again. (I have to remember to "keep the noise down", as the other people around me glance over to see if I'm sighing with impatience or annoyance, lol! I'm really not though, nor am I really anxious. I'm not. It's just physical symptoms, tense muscles, especially around the gut and chest, arms and legs. Thankfully I had help to understand that this is just from the ven as it does it's thing with the receptors in my gut. Not true anxiety, just the common physical signs, because 80% of our serotonin receptors are in our gut. And they are being switched on and all that. The norepinephrine seems to act the same way on them, physically speaking. I also am sweating again, which is uncomfortable but I can live with it for now. To the good, I am hearing some positives in my thinking, and my memory is sharper and I am not beating myself up anymore. Good deal, I say!

Thanks again for the friendly ear. You are all so very caring and kind people. Own that, it's you! :D

Marie xx

p.s. I never thought I would go this high up in dose with the ven, in fact when I first read someone's post who commented they were experimenting with it, I thought omigosh, they must feel a bit nutty. So I thought I should say that no, in fact, while I am physically feeling the added tension that is normal while stabilizing, I'm not going all anxious mentally! Awesome! Worth a try if you can wait out the s/e, especially if your depression is really bad!

[pulisa]

Will you just be on the 300mg for a month and then have to start reducing, Marie? That's a hell of a drop to 75mg for the Summer months? You probably won't get any side effects from withdrawal as you've tolerated the increases with relative ease.

Am trying to get through each day giving my daughter a maximum of 5mg diazepam or none at all. Her autistic traits are far more pronounced but we are managing. Her sleep is also reduced but we have to get through this. I have considered the tricyclics but the cardiac side effects put me off. Anafranil is meant to be OK for OCD but I'm not too sure I want her on meds again-just too risky with all the added extras!

Terry, could you afford to have a one-off assessment with a private psych of good repute just to get an accurate diagnosis? You seem to be very low as well with good reason. I'm just concerned that you're not getting any help and yet you're really struggling to cope despite doing all you can to manage your complex condition.

[SADnomore]

Hi, Pulisa! Yes, I will just have a month for the 300mg as I will need to start decreasing, and would like to allow for 2 weeks for each 37.5 mg drop. I will see how I feel at 75 mg, and will try to get there. But I will just have to deal with Dr Cranky if I don't manage it this year. :scared15: Lol! The 75mg is meant to be my summer maintenance dose, and from there I'm allowed to go back up starting in August. His plan for SAD goes like that, "getting a jump on it" by increasing in August and continuing to where you "feel well" for the winter months. Decreasing again in spring to 75mg for summer. This has been my first full winter (I started last April at 37.5mg)

I have tried a number of SSRIs over the years each time I became depressed/anxious. The only one that helped at all was Zoloft, it was very good for my OCD negative thinking and kept me calm, day in, day out. The problem was that I found it numbing after several months. Numb was not a bad thing at first, but finally when listening to a friend crying, I realized I "should" feel sad for her, feel empathy, but I didn't. So I made the decision to withdraw from Zoloft. I did experience brain zaps and stuff, and I would look into something else other than the doctor's "day on, day off" withdrawal plan if I ended up taking it again. For me, it was a good coping drug after my mother passed away, when I had been at my lowest point, before this past winter when I functioned even worse.

This past winter for the first time I was 'tested' and diagnosed with SAD and GAD. I know now that I have had it all my life and it became worse after moving so far north. My husband gets impatient with me, because he doesn't like cold and dark either and equates that with depression. NOT the same thing, as we know. It's not a preference expression, it's an illness. ... Anyway I have done so much better this year that I don't need him to "understand", I am able to be positive and pleasant to be around much more. Most importantly, with myself!

I really applaud you for being so conservative and careful with your daughter. You are such a trooper and great mom. If you do decide to go with a tricyclic, I'm sure it will only be when you are satisfied that the risks have been mitigated for your daughter. It is harder for you to manage with her this way, but her health clearly comes first with you. How lucky she is to have you for her mom!
__________________________________________________ _______________

Terry, what do you think? Are you ready to fight the good fight once again? What about making a list of everything you've done and how you have slipped through the cracks each time so you can refer to them when asked for your history? You'll need to pick a time when you're calm-ish to do this, but it could allow the doctor to move on more quickly for you during the appointment.
__________________________________________________ ___________________

How are you doing now, Michelle? I have been doing a bit more reading that concurs with Terry's advice, Vitamin D, Omega 3, and even Vitamin B12 all help in addition!

Nic, any word yet from the psych's office?

[Michelle1]

Hi all,

Marie it sounds like you are tolerating the Ven very well. I am so pleased you are getting some relief from it. I hope when the time comes you will be able to reduce back down to 75mgs easily. It sounds like you have also been in some very dark places in the past. This illness is so awful isn't it and so hard to explain to people who haven't been there. Like you I have tried many ssris in the past and I've tried duloxitine and mirt the only one I haven't tried is Escitalopram. All failed me or made my illness worse so it's so good when you find one that brings you relief. I hope today has been a good day for you.

Ven is definitely helping me back to the road of recovery it's still a long bumpy road lots of knock backs but overall I'm seeing my anxiety settle down into the background. I had my a sense review meeting today at work and if is been off the meds I know I would of been a nervous wreck. But last night I went to bed about 10.30 and slept till 5.30 (which is good for me) I woke up calm and when I had my meeting I felt at ease and was able to get my points across in a relaxed way. I fully explained my illness and how I had been feeling over the last few months whilst being off meds is also had the union supporting me and I had 2 occupational health reports and my gp report. Occ health report states it's likely my illness would be covered under the dda and made recommendations for work to consider when I feel well enough to return. I just asked for some support while I am recovering and I thing I got my points across. Such a relief the meeting is over. My boss told me to stay off sick until I feel well enough to return so it's a weight of my mind knowing I can take a few more weeks to recover properly.

Hi nic how are you? Did you hear back from your pdoc? You would of laughed at my dream last night it was very amusing I was living with the kardashians (mad I know) and I was out with kim and kayne and al of a sudden out if the blue I had a baby. So all the kardashian clan went shopping for me and came back with loads of baby stuff for me to use and then me and kim were taking out babies out in the push chairs trying to dodge all the paps. So funny, I woke up thinking what the hell was that all about :-). Least it wasn't one of the scary ones I sometimes have. I can cope with the funny ones. It's funny how the dream stops with you all the following day. Keep getting flashbacks. Bizzare!!!

Pulisa how is your daughter today? I hope she is now over the worst of the withdrawl from Ven and you can decide where you go from here. I know what you mean about wanting to go down the route of being med free. I so wish I never had to take any medication and had a healthy functioning brain.

Hi terry not heard from you for a while how have you been the last couple of days? My thoughts are with you.

Hope to hear from you all soon thanks for all your ongoing support xx

[nicola1980]

Hi all, Marie it sounds like your tolerating the ven really well, im so pleased that it's helping you, im also miserable in the winter months, im a sun worshipper and the hotter the better! I love going abroad and lying on my sunbed all day soaking it all up and relaxing, when we went abroad last year I cried when we had to come home! Winters so cold dull and dark and just makes me want to curl up in bed or on the sofa all day.
Michelle im so pleased your meeting went well, what a relief for you. It sounds like the ven is starting to kick in for you, give it a few more weeks and fingers crossed you'll be alot better. Lol aren't the dreams funny? The last 2 nights mine haven't been as scary as they were but I'm dreaming about people I haven't seen for years? People I haven't even thought of? There still unsettling me but I'm hoping they'll calm down. I've still not heard from the physc, will ring again tomorrow, im getting a bit impatient now!!
Pulisa how is your daughter? I understand what you mean about being med free, i would love nothing more but I think I've resigned myself to the fact I'll need to be on something for life which does scare the life out of me honestly.
Terry your very quiet? I hope your ok? XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Nicola - thanks, my laptop has been struggling getting on the internet so I've been using my phone to check PM's really as its not easy typing long posts on a smartphone! I have been doing better for the last 3 days now. It was a blip, its just that they have changed again since Xmas and I haven't had a change for a good 6 months so I need to see how this develops to determine whether its worse, better or about the same. Its longer and more intense but if the better periods inbetween are longer, that might represent an improvement of sorts. It seems to be affecting my asthma a bit though as I'm finding I have more mucus in my throat, which is strange.

Marie - Yes, I have started documenting my symptoms, thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc. I think I may also start a mood diary to track how this is going because these constant swings are something I can't remember before going onto Duloxetine. I need to get more organised about this again. I've managed to get more sleep for 3 days this week (1-1.5 hours more a night), although I slipped last night, so I'm going to keep going at it. I've also started making some slight changes in routine and being off here a cuple of nights has helped with that so I need to keep breaking things up a bit to see if that helps. I will see about the doctor from there because right now, accessing therapy seems difficult with my sleep pattern in the way. The Omega 3 has really helped me, although I did experience my blips as more intense anxiety for the first 6 weeks (my blips were 2-3 bad days vs. 7 days good), as my mood improved and my ability to cope/resilience was noticibly different.

Pulisa - Yes, I guess I could. I'll look into it and see what services are available. I find the blips tend to give me a knock and with them changing to being more anxiety intense, it has hit my thinking and moods a bit more than before. Before Xmas, my mood was actually much better than it had been for years and thats purely down to Omega 3 but its not working as well right now with this being worse. I think when I next access some help, a review of medication is going to be in order. I've started documenting everything so that when I get to that stage, I can get more out of it as I did when I went through CBT. I seem to have a big issue with resistance which is going to be a safety behaviour, and this is something I have to fight against...back at my worst it would have me doing completely nothing to prevent sensations (thank god thats long gone!)

Michelle - thanks, I appreciate that. You have my thoughts too. I hope you are having a better time of it now with the ven settling down. I know what you mean about relapses being worse, thats how mine has been although I think Duloxetine might be partly to blame as my OCD fully developed when I went on this stuff.

[pulisa]

Still struggling but hoping that each day is a day closer to feeling better.

Wishing everyone a settled weekend

[nicola1980]

Hi everyone, im having a few bad days, not so much anxiety just really really low, it was my birthday yesterday and I spent the morning in tears and took myself back off to bed. The physc phoned me yesterday and he's written to my physc with his diagnosis and recommendations, he's tried calling her but had no joy so far XX

[SADnomore]

Michelle, I'm over the moon for you with your meeting going so well!! Kudos, and good luck with your time off now and giving some thought to what sorts of duties you would like to have when you do go back.

Terry, well it's great to hear you're okay, buddy :D Amazing news about the sleep, hopefully you will get more and more nights like that as time goes by. As for the blips, two steps forward, one back is progress still, right? Keep on going! Get tough with the resistance (or pay it no mind), and do what you know is best for you. So often we have to put blinders on and "plugs" in our ears to it, I know, it's frustrating, isn't it? It does sound as though a medication review is in order, and as you say, therapy once again. First things first, but don't hesitate if the blips don't leave or intensify, okay? And keep us posted, as you can, bearing in mind that you need to set out your routines firstly. We'll all be here when you have extra time on your hands. I know I'm baaaaad for staying online much too late. And writing a veritable book, lol! Gotta get on with things moreso offline, myself! :blush:

Nic, sorry, just about to ask when I read about your last psych's call. Hang in there sweetheart, help is on the way. Be gentle with yourself meanwhile. ... Yes, I love vacations so much too! They improve my mood for weeks afterwards. This last time I, on getting back home I started being more religious with Vitamin D again, and that and the rest have helped me to not slip too much. Been making fresh veg juice once or twice a day and eating mostly healthy, and redirecting my thoughts to the positive.

Spring is coming. It will get easier then. Big hugs to all, sending positive vibes as well!

Marie xo

[Michelle1]

Hi how's everybody this weekend?

I'm having a bit of a bumpy time right now. Seems I have a good day and feel more positive that I'm on the road to recovery and then get hit with some bad days were all I want to do is stay in bed and put my head under the covers. I'm sure you all know that feeling. I keep wondering is this how I'm going to be for the rest of my life now. It's a month now so I'm hoping the bad days will ease off soon and more good days will start happening because when I have a good day it's great feeling normal and having the energy and excitement of a new day. Tomorrow is mothers day and my daughter keeps asking what we are doing and I just hope tomorrow will be s good day and we can do something nice together. I carry a lot of guilt having this illness and wishing my daughter didn't have to see me poorly. Nobody knows how terrible anxiety can be unless they too have suffered from it. I'd love to know what has caused this chemical imbalance in my brain that can cause such intense feelings.
Does anybody feel worse in the mornings ?

Mornings are awful for me, need a good few hours to pull round and usually by tea time I feel great. 5 till bedtime seems to be the best hours in the day for me. I wonder why that is?
Anybody suffering with eye problems too ? Each time I've gone back on ven ive got eye problems in my right eye. Not sure if it's dry eyes or blurred vision. I've got some eye drops to keep the eye moist and my dr has referred me to an eye dr at the hospital. I have a really dry mouth so wondering if it's drying my eyes too? A small issue which is not too much of a worry in the grand scheme of things and certainly something I can put up with.

Terry - I too had the mucus in the back of my throat constantly whilst on duloxitine constantly having to swallow and I was told it effected the histamine in the body. Also was much more ocd whilst on it. It's strange how these drugs are designed to help but the se can create further complications in our illness.

Anyway I'm trying to stay positive and be patient I know I'll get through this and will be back to myself soon (it's the one thought keeping me going).

Once stable I'm going to try stopping the diazepam gradually because I will feel a lot better knowing I'm off that as there is such a bad vibe from Drs about being on this drug. I'm lucky that I'm on a low dose anyway (max 2mgs daily) so I'm hoping if I do it right I'll come off without any rebound anxiety and if I do I'll use the Pregabalin.
Anyway less about me, how are you all doing ? Happy Mother's Day to all you brave mums out there going through this illness xx

[pulisa]

Hope you have a Happy Mother's Day too, Michelle. Am I right in thinking that it's just in the UK that Mother's Day is celebrated tomorrow?

Nic, I send my very best wishes to you too and echo what Marie has so wisely said. Remember that you have been through so much and need to heal emotionally as well as contend with the ven increase.

In my household we don't make a big deal out of Mother's Day. Any "change" is a threat and puts pressure on my daughter. We are going to York on Monday for the day though hence a very early start as we live in Surrey! We have booked cheap advance tickets on the train. With autism things like this become a "military operation" but we've done this trip a few times now so we know what to expect. It will be a major challenge this time though in view of recent circumstances.

I don't think any of us should feel guilty for feeling the way we do. We're all doing as best we can!xx

[SADnomore]

Hi, Michelle!

I am here to tell you yes, the bad days will ease off soon, and more good days will start happening. I can say this with authority because you have had good days where you feel normal, and have the energy and excitement of a new day. :D A very good sign indeed!

In fact, it is exactly this pattern that recovery with Effexor/ven has followed for me, and for others I've followed on NMP, too. In some cases, they report turning a corner where it is suddenly like a switch was flipped and they're happy and confident once again. For me it has been much less dramatic. I still have times where I get (very) small rushes of adrenaline and have to do a bit of deep breathing. They have gotten much fewer and much further between. I accept them and do not escalate them by imagining they are anything more than that, small and short-lived adrenaline rushes. And I expect to have the stomach knots as new increases settle in each time, so they don't throw me any more.

Of course, this is where the limitations of the drug, any drug, come into play. Control of serotonin and adrenaline levels is not perfect. So we will have a bit of a rocking boat some days, with small adrenaline rushes (and yes, these get smaller and less often too). Things come to an even keel before long and we can enjoy life again. We may need to remind ourselves that there is truly nothing to fear, and that it's okay to be excited and joyful! It is then that I really like to do tactile stuff like petting the cats and putting my ear close to hear their purrs, stop to enjoy the taste of food and savour it, have coffee with a friend, that kind of thing. Not think at all, just feel pleasant things in the moment. With some practice engaging with others during these experiences, I am feeling happy again at last. Not all the time, but it's a beginning!

Odd to think that we would need to practice feeling relaxed and engaged with life, and happy, lol! But it's usually been so long, it does make a kind of sense that would be the case. When I compare it to how it was before Effexor, I know that no matter how hard I tried I never quite got there, and I figure it was the chemical imbalance that stopped me short. So even though it has taken time, and I need to apply myself to make them happen, I am so grateful for these feelings! The physical annoyances and mental habits can be detached or worked around. It's like I now have a leg-up in dealing with these hurdles. It's all I needed, really, a little leg-up! :yesyes: It won't be long before you're realizing the same thing, you now have that advantage you need, too. Big hugs, eyes on the prize now, you're getting there! :bighug1:
Marie xoxo
ps Deep six the guilt! It is not valid, no. :lac:

[nicola1980]

Hi all, Michelle mornings are the absolute worse, when I was at my worst 3 years ago I used to wake every morning shaking and used to spend half an hour retching down tho kitchen sink as my anxiety was so bad, I think mornings are the last thing to come right, i still feel v shaky some mornings and it takes me a while to pull myself round. Take some hope you've had some good days, it means things are going in the right direction, patience is the key to this illness but unfortunately as we're suffering it we don't have any. I feel very guilty like you over my son, he's seen me at my worst when I couldn't get out of bed to even take him to school, I remember him asking my mum if I was going to die, it broke my heart and still does, now I tend to put a brave face on and soldier on even when I'm a quivering mess, i then let out a huge sigh when he's left for school and burst into tears :( keep going hun it will get easier
Pulisa I hope you have a lovely day in York with your daughter, as I've said before my friend has an autistic and ADHD daughter so I know how hard and challenging these trips can be but I hope you have some lovely bonding time together.
Marie you sound fantastic, that ven increase is certainly doing its job, im so pleased for you.
Terry how are you?
I've had a better day today mood wise, been and done some shopping...well throwing stuff in my trolley whilst running like a loon road Morrisons but hey I did it!!
hope all you mums have a wonderful day tomorrow, you all deserve it XX

[SADnomore]

Happy Mothers Day, all you mothers in the UK! :flowers: Here in Canada we have to wait til May. Not fair! Lol!

ps Thanks so much Nic. I'm so grateful to be getting better. ... Oh, I wish I could bring you with me for grocery shopping, you could be like my "pace car" and I'd be done in no time! Whooooosh!!

[Michelle1]

Thank you so much for all your kind words they mean so much to me and brought a tear to my eyes :-(

I'm pleased today that today was a much better day. I was so hoping it would be as I wanted to have an enjoyable mothers day with my daughter. Anyhow I woke up feeling my usual anxious self, heart beating fast, hands trembling so much I couldn't open my propanalol tablets and kept dropping them. I took 20mgs and stayed in bed and read your kind words. They really helped me to stay positive so after a shower and breakfast I woke my daughter and told her we were going out for the day to the metro centre (large shopping centre near Newcastle). She looked so happy and when she gave me her Mother's Day card I cried again because she had wrote in it "to the best mum in the world:-) I love you so much, you are my best friend as well as my mum".

Your kind words on here and her kind words really picked me up and I thought I'm going to beat this anxiety. It's not going to ruin my day!

Anyhow we had a lovely day out. Usually I don't like lots of people and busy places but today was a lot better and when the anxiety did rear its head I thought to myself IGNORE it. Give it no time. I read that somewhere and it works. I ignored the physical and mental feelings that come with anxiety and thought I'm not going to spend any of my time today on you. I am going to spend all my time today on enjoying the day and it worked!!
I look forward to more days like this in the future.

Thanks again for all your kind and encouraging words they truly helped me.
Michelle xx

[nicola1980]

Hi Michelle im so pleased you've had a good day, good on you for battling thro and going out, i know how hard it is.
Well I've had a rubbish day, my husband totally forgot to take my son to get a mothers card altho im not quite sure how seeing as he was with me when I got my mums?? My son was really upset and I played it down to him as I didn't want to make a big deal out of it but I'm absolutely livid, i was so upset I was crying this morning but still he made no effort to go out and get me some flowers or anything :( I've not spoke to him all day and we were supposed to all be going to my mums for dinner but I told him he could stay at home as I didn't want him there plus I knew my dad wouldn't be able to keep his mouth shut about it either and would be cross so I just went with my son and my mum bless her had brought me a big box of chocolates, maybe I'm overreacting I don't know but all I wanted was a card and he couldn't even do that!! I'm now at home but don't even want to look at him or be in the same room im so angry still!! Sorry about my moan, i hope everybody else had a lovely day XX

[pulisa]

Don't stress over it, Nicola, please?! Mother's Day is much over-hyped by retailers and the media but having said this it's disappointing that your husband didn't get his act together for your son. But that doesn't mean he doesn't care about you...he probably had no idea how much this "omission" would hurt you?

I'm sure he'll make it up to you in due course. For the record my husband hasn't even mentioned Mother's Day much less contacted his own mother. I hope in time you'll forgive him and give him a list of "penances"?:D

Michelle, I'm so pleased that you have had such a positive day

Marie, your wonderful advice and encouragement is always so welcome. It's great that ven has given you your life back!

Nic, I do hope you'll feel better about today very soon xx

[Michelle1]

Hi nic how are you?
Sorry to hear your weekend wasn't great. Hope today has been a better day for you?
I'm still a bit up and down one day good next day not so good but still that's improvement from a month ago.

Did you hear back from your pdoc re your meds?

Marie - thank you so much for your wise words they really helped me. Just the encouragement I needed xx

[nicola1980]

Hi all, Pulisa how was your day in York with your daughter? Hope you both had a good time? How's your daughter now off the ven? Have the withdrawals stopped for her? I do hope so.
Michelle it's really good your having some good days, that's how my recovery has been going good days then some not so good days, I've had a good 4 days anxiety and mood wise which I'm hoping will continue! The new physc phoned me last Thursday and has written to my physc giving his diagnosis and recommendations to what avenues we could go down, he is trying to speak to her personally tho but so far he's had no joy! I've got an appointment with my physc on the 14th April so will discuss with her then and see where we go from there. Unfortunately the new physc can't treat me permanently as he's a perinatal physc and unfortunately is leaving but I'm hoping with his second opinion we might get somewhere, he spoke when we met about augmenting the ven with an increase to 225mg with something else for a while to get me to a functioning level as he feels I've not led a functioning life for the past 3 years altho I tend to disagree with that a bit as I felt fine in the summer but when he asked me the question have you been happy for a whole month I couldn't really answer so will just have to see if my physc agrees but she can be a funny cow so I'm not too sure but she was the one who asked for a second opinion so.....
Marie how are you getting on hun? Still flying high on your increase lol
terry your very quiet are you ok hun?
I've had a much better few days and even had to conquer my biggest fear of the dentist because my back tooth broke....I was petrified but I did it even without the help of a Diazepam so that is progress!! I was shaking like a leaf tho and my legs were like jelly and just wanted to run when I could hear all the drills etc whilst I was in the waiting room but I stayed with my heart literally beating out my chest but I did it and fortunately it was just a quick patch up job so I was in and out in 5 mins!! They were a very long 5 mins for me tho lol XX

[pulisa]

Well done Nic! Having work done at the dentist's is always horrible-I'm sure in years to come things will be a lot less invasive and scary but that's no help to us now! You did really well!

My daughter and I had a really good time in York but as what always happens, there has been a huge backlash. She has a big fear of spending money (it's irrational as she's well provided for) but she was brave in York and bought a few special treats for herself and now is berating herself as to whether she spent too much and is her money now all going to disappear and what if this, what if that etc etc. The tiredness and anxiety over the trip will pass but it's a shame that she's dogged by this phobia just to add to all her other worries. (She's had this fear of spending money for ages and when on high dose ven). She could have millions of pounds and still have the same fears....

I think withdrawal from ven can last for ages? I'm not sure what are symptoms of withdrawal now compared with everyday anxieties. I just know that it's very mentally challenging!

Hoping that everyone has good weather today? It's sunny here in the South!

[MyNameIsTerry]

Michelle – thanks for that, I didn’t know it affects the histamine. I’ve got one of those red light machines you use for hayfever (they are the best hayfever treatment I’ve come across, I don’t get it all some years!) so I could try that. I had the mucus before my anxiety as I have asthma and its common, the steroid inhalers can cause it as well along with things like thrush. But it is more prominent at times so perhaps its aggravating it? I have bought some Serrapeptase to try on my asthma and sciatica and that works by controlling mucus as well as eating scar tissue so that might help with this too.

I have obsessional issues before and they did get worse running up to my relapse but when it went on this 60mg dose I had tons of rituals whereas I only had a couple of minor ones dating back into childhood that didn’t even cause me any anxiety! So, it was either the Duloxetine or the strength of the relapse or both. It was hell dealing with this as I knew nothing about OCD and it completely ran my day.

Sounds like your daughter is really happy to be getting her old mum back. I know the Metro Centre (should that be Met Ro Centre?). I used to go to meetings up that way…is there still a Big Luke’s in there???

Pulisa – I’m glad you had a good day out. It’s nice in York with the architecture and quaint shops. There are some nice sweet shops too!

I understand about the money issue, although I’m sure its different with it being from something other than an anxiety disorder. I do it with my money. I went through a time where I was working between 60-70 hours overtime per month (I hit 115 hours one month!) but back then I wasn’t anxious…I loved the hard work because I was seeing results from my projects and enjoying myself. Later on though I started to find myself worried about my savings dropping. Even though I had plenty behind me, I would be saying “I need X for the mortgage deposit, I need X for my pension, I need X for this, etc”. It became a bit of a problem and I would not spend much and bank as much as I could. I would set a target and once I hit it, I set another, and another. If my money dipped, I would worry a bit about how it impacts the X’s. I wasn’t anxious back then but its an obvious trait of a problem. I later learned, whilst having CBT, that this is a trait of Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD) and because I had the minimum 4 traits required, I thought I had this. However, further reading into the mindset proved I didn’t as I’m not resistant to the help of others or discounting the fact they could be right where I am wrong. Right now, I’m really careful with my money with not having an income and living off my mortgage deposit and I do kick myself for spending! So, I rarely buy myself anything now…but I will buy other people things.

Marie – thanks Marie. I’ve just started into another blip in the last 2 days but inbetween was much better. I really need to track these so I can show them to my doctor when discussing medication. I’ve started moving things around a bit, although the day hasn’t changed in terms of times…little things, eh? My OCD got so bad that I would stick to the same console games over & over and fear changing to new ones. I don’t have that now but I will still do it, so I’ve started to pick up the new ones to give me something different to do and find newer activities instead. Its so easy to slip back into ruts and they hurt us at a much deeper level than we realise and our confidence just drains away!

Did you ever try a lightbox in the end?

I’m glad the Omega 3 and vitamin D is working out for you, I remember us discussing the vitamin D ages ago. Did you find the studies on Omega 3 for the dosing levels? Want to hear something crazy? If you look on drug interaction checkers, Omega 3 is listed again Duloxetine due to the blood thinning issue…funny, I don’t recall seeing a warning about not eating fish!!! Its no wonder people get so confused over what they can and can’t take.

I’ve heard that vitamin D3 is getting quite popular as its supposed to be superior. Maybe its worth a look?

How is the kale going?

Nicola – Argh, I guess someones doing a lot more chores around the house for a couple of weeks and looking a bit sorry for himself! I feel bad for your son too, I’m sure he would loved to have made something for you but perhaps your bloke can make a point of getting something done with him anyway as there is no reason a son can’t give his mum a gift whenever he feels like it to say he appreciates her…I know I do.

Is your bloke always like that? If its just the once, perhaps try to look at it again when things have calmed down because it can be hard with all this going on and we don’t always realise we can be a bit ‘all or nothing’ at times. If he does it more frequently then I guess he needs a bit of a kick as its wrong, you need positively through this, not more problems!

I’m ok. I’m having another blip the last couple of days but inbetween things did improve. Its just the intensity has changed so I’ve just got to monitor it really. I’ve not been on here quite so much as I find I will stay on a long time and I was dog tired so had some earlier nights and did other things to break the routine up. Forums like this can be a problem for me as I will look for things to do and it ends up being hours. This is an obsessional trait I picked up in my work and it stuck bigtime so I have to be careful with it and sometimes I find taking a break helps remind my subconscious that it doesn’t need each day to be the same…a major battle of mine!

[SADnomore]

Hello, everyone!

I hear you Terry, I must watch it myself so that I don't spend half the day obsessing with the laptop. Not just this forum, but also FB, and just compulsively surfing down every detail about every supplement that might help for anything that I think might be ailing me now and in the future, ugh! Maybe it's a form of health anxiety? A "preventative" compulsion? Anyway, that said, no, funnily enough as I am not much of an online shopper, and we have very few options for shopping here, I have not yet bought a lightbox. I am open to it, though, and may try it instead of a sort of "rote" increase in the ven next January, to see if I can avoid the need. There are more options in southern BC and we are going next week for a few days, so it's possible there might be one at a health store there, hopefully on sale as it's getting towards end-of-season for lightbox sales I imagine.

Also, being vegetarian, I have been taking vitamin B12, the bioavailable form, in a sublingual, and in my research learned that B6 and folate are kind of synergistic with it. Saw a couple of combo 12 and 6 at the health food store yesterday, and have heard of them being available with folate, so I shall see if I come across an all-in-one in my travels. Just to make things easier. Do you happen to know about folate, by chance? I saw a separate one for the bioavailable form, but it was just 1 mg so I didn't buy it.

Other than that, I'm just sticking with the D3 and the Omegas, and calcium again now that I've found a liquid form. You know, I have a cupboard full of supplements that I have bought and used to take just because I had heard of them, but they really became such a pain with their schedules, ugh! I'm glad to be down with just the few now that are proven to help with health and depression. Excited, really! I feel as though I'm coming to the end of this ongoing obsession, ending with just this small number of tried-and-true daily aids, and the freedom in knowing I'm doing the best for myself mentally and physically. Some time finally for a walk in the sunshine now!

It's reassuring to know that most of us can come on here to share our ups and downs, and I must say the support has been invaluable to me. At the same time, as I skim through the threads, I have become quite choosy about avoiding those that I just know won't be helpful. I don't need to explore any more things to worry about, lol! Keep sharing all, but let's remember to take what we need, and leave the rest, right?

One more thing ... I got a prescription refill from the doc yesterday, and have decided to switch now from zopiclone to trazadone for sleep, and also to see if it helps with the anxiety. It took a little longer to fall asleep last night, but on the other hand, I am much more alert this morning than usual! And feeling really good, mentally as well - in fact, I am thinking that I may be turning a corner already here. I have a friend who just started trazodone this past Sunday and says her mood has improved wonderfully, too. Just wondering Pulisa whether your daughter has ever tried Trazodone?

Hugs,
Marie

[nicola1980]

Hi everyone! Just wondered how everybody was doing? I was doing well until last week and I had a kidney stone which resulted in a kidney infection :( I've never felt so ill and the pain was awful, they wanted to admit me but I refused so my Gp said they would try and treat me at home so was on strong antibiotics, strong painkillers, antisickness and another med to protect my stomach from all the other meds, fortunately I passed the stone pretty quickly but got left with an infection that completely drained me, i didn't get out of bed all week and my anxiety soared aswell as I was feeling so poorly :( fortunately I feel so much better now. I joined slimming world 2 weeks ago as since being on the ven I've put over a stone on and a few friends go so thought I'd tag along, I've lost 4.5lb so far but that's alot to do with being so poorly I think but I'm going to keep determined!! How's everyone else doing? XX

[SADnomore]

Omigosh, Nic!! So sorry to hear about all this! Yes, luck was surely on your side as far as passing the stone so quickly - my hubby was weeks with his! We both took time off and drove 4 1/2 hours to the specialist only to be told they wouldn't even bother to try the method with laser that breaks them up. Said it was too small, but he certainly had the big-time pain until he passed it finally.

You were very brave to tough it out at home, anxiety and all! Please consider taking a course of probiotics now to restore the good bacteria in your gut. The strong antibiotics will have wiped them out. I always get the highest "billions per capsule" I can find. I don't know why they don't keep them in the pharmacies, but for sure a good health food store will have them in the cooler at the back. Restoring your gut flora will help with your anxiety too! Good luck :D

Big congrats on your weight loss! :bighug1: Do hydrate well now and have lots of veg and fruit and protein to prepare for joining the girls at the gym. So nice to have health-minded friends!
Marie XO :flowers:

[MyNameIsTerry]

Ouch, nasty!

I've known a coupe of people with them and its taken them months because they have needed treatment to break them up first. I remember one guy saying he was driving on the motorway when it started giving him pain and he creased up and nearly veered into a lorry!

I hear Norovirus is good for rapid weight loss Nicola but I wouldn't recommend it!

I know what you mean about putting weight on. I've put on over a stone and I really need to lose some of it. I've read before that elevated cortisol is linked to increases in fat held around the waste but maybe its a bit of everything as we tend to eat the wrong things, get less exercise, the meds can affect us, etc.

Marie, I'm a lot like you with my online stuff. I have times where I have to back away from it a bit. I also do the same with vitamins but some of it for me is about side effects because I have had issues in the past with supplements when I was on the weights and had a panic attack after a very strong supplement. I reckon its an OCD thing with me though, but HA & OCD do both share the obsessiveness element.

[pulisa]

You've had such a rough time lately, Nic and that sounds so very painful. They say that kidney stone pain is worse than childbirth! I do hope that you are now over the worst and that things really look up for you from now on!

[SADnomore]

Hi, all!

Terry, I have heard the same about work out supplements, and that even people who don't have an anxiety disorder get wound up on the strong ones, too! I had a friend who got sick as a dog on hers, she couldn't even find a protein powder that was high enough and yet she could manage to stomach.

I am like that with the B vitamins. When I first came on here I tried resuming a B Complex available from the grocery store. A bit pricey but it included them all, plus a smattering of Chinese herbs. Ohmigosh, I thought I was going to die, they made me SO anxious! I quit those and finally resumed a sublingual B12, and a nutritional yeast containing many of the Bs. Still not ideal, so I began to research the best forms of some of the critical Bs (for me of course, B12 is critical) and was introduced to the concept of the methylated forms. These are the vital and high-quality, absorbable form, or "bioavailable" straight away to the body. Especially good for if you are one who are genetically unable to break them down properly, but ideal for everyone because of their greater absorption!

I find that because of my stomach clenching and cramping soon after taking most hard tablets and caplets, (even headache remedies), I had to drop them completely. Just not worth the misery. I can't even manage calcium carbonate, I have to go with the gentler citrate form, which I am still looking for in a liquid form. All the chewables contain the carbonate. :mad:

Well! I am thrilled to report that I have at last found a dissolvable sublingual that offers all three of these: methylated forms of B12, folic acid, and B6!! It's called Superior Source No Shot Methylcobalamin B-12 (1000 mcg), B6 and Methylfolate.

Supplement Facts Service Size: 1 Tablet
Servings Per Container: 60 Ingredient Amount % Daily Value** Vitamin B6 2mg, Folate 1000mcg, Vitamin B12 1000mcg, Stevia Leaf Extract 1.5mg ** Percent Daily Value is based on a 2000 calorie diet. Your daily values may be higher or lower depending on your calorie needs.
† Daily Value not established.

Ingredients:
Other Ingredients: Lactose (milk), acacia gum, and natural cherry flavor with other natural flavors.
Best of all, it's on sale right now, at around the same price as my old, hard, filler-filled, indigestible B-Complex!

Ordering from "All Star Health", and they ship everywhere!
(allstarhealth.com) :)

My contribution to the cause, Terry, lol! ... All the best to everyone, hope spring is in the air over there, we have sunshine, blue skies and 17 degrees right now! Yay!

Marie xx

[MyNameIsTerry]

Yeah Marie, it really does depend what you are taking because there are legal steriods (plant based) and very strong stimulants. I was taking a diet one, I think it was Stacker 4 or 5, which is shellfish based and it is pretty powerful so it wasn't a good idea to continue with that alongside GAD developing. I didn't know anything about axiety back in those days though. I was also taking various testosterone boosters and it was the edition of a new more poweful one that I mixed with the others which in hindsight probably should have been taken on its own. It was a very fast effect.

Eating a load of protein causes a thermogenic effect. People with anxiety may feel this and interpret it as an anxiety symptom.

Whey protein is the one that always comes up when people on Bodybuilding.com talk about their anxiety being spiked after a protein shake. Some of these people have then tried a non why version to find they are fine. There is some speculation over whether it is branched-chain amino acids (BCAA) causing this but I'm not sure because they are in all of the powders so unless whey has far more (why I don't think it has) it can't be this. I've never heard it reported about casein either and thats milk protein that is usually 20% whey (unless they shakes are pure due to processing but if you buy powdered milk from a supermarket, which is in high protein, it is 80% casein 20% whey usually) as far as I know.

Glutamine was another one mentioned. This might be closer to the mark as glutamate has connections to neurotransmitters so maybe a large dose causes a problem is it causes problems with competing receptor sites? The trouble is again, its in every supplement as well as food just like BCAA's so unless its to do with a certain volume at a specific time, it doesn't make sense and must be about whey.

I guess its a bit like a lactose intolerance?

She could switch to vegan proteins. Brown rice protein has been studied and found about as effective as whey and moreso in some of its elements. Its not classed as a complete protein, I think it lack one essential amino acid, so what people do is buy pea protein and mix them which completes it. Pea protein is the highest on one of the essential amino acids as well. Some manufacturers are now making vegan blends to offer this which may include soy and hemp proteins.

The protein content of whey and those are about the same in terms of protein level per g dosage.

The weather is pretty good in my area, although I only see the last hour or so at the start of my day, I see more before bedtime! Its warm too today.

[SADnomore]

Hey Terry! What I am using right now is a Pumpkin Protein Powder, which is a gluten-free vegetable source of whole food protein. Contains all 18 amino acids, including the 10 essential ones. Over 60% protein, "has a great biological value and is highly digestible. Ingredients: Partially Defatted Certified Organic Pumpkin Seed Protein Powder". That's it!

They suggest 1-2 servings per day. Can be stirred into hot or cold cereals, juices, smoothies, green drinks, yogurt, etc. I put it in my fresh juices right out of the fridge (to which I also add a bit of oil for the fat-soluble vitamins!) and it dissolves great, and has no taste of its own at all. A serving is 15 grams, or 1 and 1/2 tablespoons.

I do fine on it, but admittedly I am using it for dietary protein on my "vegan" days when I don't have fish, shellfish, or eggs. It only offers 10 grams of protein, but I also do a fair bit of combining on those days as well. Half a dozen small Brazil nuts and a lysine capsule is another complete protein, and makes a satisfying snack when I'm juicing. ... I can see where people may want to use more of it, perhaps in a pint of juice or what have you. At just 1 gram of fat, 1.5 grams of carbohydrate, being all fibre and 0 sugar per serving, I don't guess that would be a problem. Just 2 mg sodium ...

Wondering what you may know of magnesium oxide? As a gas (industrial by-product) it is toxic, and some non-commercial sites have misinterpreted it as being toxic as a supplement. Other than that I don't know much. I am seeing it as a combo with magnesium citrate yielding 500 mg per day, in a full-spectrum minerals supplement, and was thinking of ordering that too. Along with the methyl form tri-B vitamin I mention above. It's not a sublingual though, so I am a bit worried about taking it as a capsule; it isn't mentioned if it is in a gelatin capsule or a hard pill-type version ...

What do you think Terry? You can pm me if you like, when you have time!

Sorry for highjacking the thread, all! :blush: I will start one over the weekend on the natural remedies instead, I promise!

[MyNameIsTerry]

I've never heard of pumpkin protein, Marie! I know what you mean though, I've seen a brand called Pulsin that sells things like that. They are not bad prices really for the content and they have plenty of nutrients added so they make a good edition to food. I was thinking of making smoothies and scooping in some protein powder top mix it up a little when I get back on the weights. I might give quark a try as its high in protein, low in calories, sugar, fat free and has several strain of probiotics in it. I know you don't have dairy but have you ever heard of it? Its German.

You can get egg protein powders. The bodybuilding sites have a vast array of products so they can be useful for finding what you are looking for and then going elsewhere. Crikey, some even do beef thesedays!

Nuts are very goods for healthy fats and high in protein, I quite like peanuts. Pine nuts go well in pasta dishes too.

I've seen magnesium oxide in the supermarket branded ones of my local Tesco. Its definately not toxic or it wouldn't be in all the supplements as the main source of magnesium. Besides, if you put it in water it turns in magensium hydroxide whih you might know as milk of magenia? I remember taking that as a child. Both of these can be found in laxatives so doctors know about them, your governments heallth people likely have to licence them as well.

It will turn into milk of magnesia when it hits the water in your stomach. Does the pill have an enteric coating? Enteric coating is to get it past the gut which is like medications that are broken down by the liver.

The oxide version is used in all sorts of things. They use it in libraries because it is a dessicant. They also it in wiring, cement, etc. You can burn it and it changes to a different form so maybe that it toxic but I know its difficult for the fire brigade to put out.

Citrate is used as a laxative I think. If so, if you get any effects you don't want, either stop or take a lower mg.

There are some threads on there about different forms of magnesium and which are the better forms. Citrate tends to be one of the mainstream ones in supplements.

If you are looking at it on a shopping site, try the manufacturer's website because they often have product sheets for things and it might say on that. It should really say if its a pill or capsule, if you can zoom in it should say on the container. I do this sometimes if sellers haven't wrote certain things on their adds.

I would imagine it will be a capsule though.

[Michelle1]

Hi all,

Not been on here for a while so thought I would update you all on how I'm doing and find out how you all are.

Pleased to say ven kicked in again for the 4th time, so hopefully this will give some comfort if your worried it will poop out. I've successfully weaned off ven 3 times and had to go back on a few months down the line. So the good news first ven still works for me, had the usual se from starting it up again but by week 7 felt much better. Still on a low dose instant release.

Anyway, since I was feeling much better next step was to taper off my diazipam as my pdoc was quite firm about it. Explaining I was not getting any benefit from it (true) I'd been on it far too long (5 years) and as we all know benzodiazepines are not good long term. Should only be used 2-4 weeks. He told me long term they could make me more anxious I could go into withdrawl because I wasn't increasing and my body had built up a tolerance to it and there are lots of dangers being on it long term. I do agree with everything said. I was taking 2mgs per day not getting any benefits at all at such a low dose and because I'd been on it over 5 years I'd become dependant and my body was addicted to this.

So couple of weeks ago I decided to only take 1 mg (biting my 2mg tablet in half). I know this is 50% reduction but I thought I'm on such a low dose anyway it doesn't make sense to reduce by 10% at a time.

WRONG

3 days in and I was feeling very strange. No energy whatsoever, pins and needles all over my body, muscle twitches and tics, blurred vision, stiff muscles.

Then it got a whole lot worse and ended up in a&e having ecg for irregular heart beat, palpitations but worse of all depersonalisation feeling my arms were not part of my body and that I was going insane. Very scary. Hospital did checks on my heart and bloods etc and told me it was extremely anxiety due to decrease in diazipam 1 mg!!!!!

They suggested going back up to 2 mgs but I was determined and have stayed on 1 mg and thankfully coming out the other side....

Dreading the next step down (liquid diazipam for me I think) and smaller cuts. Can't wait to be off benzodiazepines and just stick to a low dose of ven indefinitely.

How are you doing nic? Are you still settled on 187.5? Did your pdoc change your meds? Hope you are doing well x

Pulisa, how is your daughter now it will be over 2mths off the ven now? How are you both coping?

Terry, how's things been on duloxetine? Any improvements?

Marie, hope you are still continuing to feel well? Did you manage to reduce your ven for the spring months? Have you suffered from benzo withdrawl and how did you cope?

I guess it's all an individual thing, healing from benzo taper but so glad I didn't increase again when I was told to.

I'll keep you all updated on how I get on over the next few weeks.

Pink - hope you have now stabilised again on the 75mgs ven.

Xx

[pulisa]

That is really scary, Michelle. All that from a 1mg reduction.....that's truly food for thought. You have been very strong to see things through- very well done!

My daughter is still off ven but it hasn't been easy. The more time she is anti depressant-free, the more I want to keep her off them to be honest. It's not as if they help anyway which makes a huge difference. Each hour of each day is a challenge but that's autism for you.

Wishing you and everyone all the very best.

[nicola1980]

Hi Michelle, I was only thinking about you the other day and wondering how you were! I'm so pleased the ven has kicked in for you and well done on persevering with the Diazepam withdrawal, it sounds terrible what you went thro but good on you for sticking it out.
Well I saw my physc last Tues who hadn't even read the report from the perinatal physc!! She skimmed thro it whilst I was there but refused to implement or even consider his recommendations on augmenting the ven with another medication, i really felt let down to the point my anxiety just rocketed to a bad level again for days after, I've lost all my faith in her to be honest and I think she is a bit behind the times with meds, she's very old school, infact my Gp warned me when I was referred to her that he's had patients refuse to see her after their first consultation, I've never had a problem with her until my miscarriage and then the stupid woman decreased my ven, i mean seriously was that an appropriate time? I was grieving for my lost baby and the trauma of what I had to go thro anyway I've decided I'm not going to see her anymore, im going to see my Gp this week and ask to be referred to another physc, unfortunately the perinatal physc can't treat me as obviously I'm not pregnant so I can't be his patient sadly as he was very good and def knew his meds and was confident I could live a fully functioning life again and I feel that hope he gave me has been snatched away hence my blip last week, i might even see if my Gp can speak to him and maybe prescribe what he suggested first with was augmenting the ven with mirtazapine which is supposed to be a good combo and I know others on here are on that successfully too so will just have to see what my Gp suggests on where we go from here but I definitely don't want to be seeing her again after the mess she left me in after my miscarriage and now disregarding other other physc's report especially when she requested the second opinion herself!! But on a positive I've lost 9lb at slimming world in 4 week's so I'm really pleased, just another 9lb to go and I'll be at my target weight Yay!!
Pulisa im pleased your daughter is still ven free it must be so hard for you. My son is 14 and is showing anxiety symptoms especially around school, it's quite concerning me but his school has been fantastic and kept in contact with me and is giving him all the extra support he needs, he has gone quite withdrawn into himself so I'm keeping a close eye on him as is the school, unfortunately the school my son attends has very high expectations of their pupils and he is just about to start his 2 year GCSE so we've been picking options etc but I think he's struggling alot with the work load especially as he's not very academic bless him, he trys his hardest tho but I think they put far too much pressure on kids now a days at school, I've never had a problem the way thro his school life until now and he's so tearful and down and saying he can't cope so that's a big worry for me too at the min but myself the school are working together to make things easier for him but as parents you just want to protect your children don't you? It's your mother's instinct. Anyway how is everybody else? I hope your all doing well, I'll top my rambling now!!! XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Michelle,

I've been on it for a few years at the standard dose so I don't think its going to do anything more now and its all up to me. I think it may be detrimental anyway with all the swings which seem like a build up of adrenaline. I'm not sure how I could either level that out or stop it building up? Its got easier again now though so it was some sort of phase.

I'm making sure I get more sleep which is starting to help. Fatigue is still an issue but its a little better. Aches & pains are getting better. Sciatica, which I've had for about the same 10 months, seems a bit better and I feel a bit more flexible. So, perhaps its been a deprivation thing and impacting me physically.

I just find that having more sleep means more anxiety initially. Partly due to the change & uncertainty issue but also I think fatigue has been surpressing the anxious feelings until I became exhausted and then it hit me. So, getting more sleep seems to awaken the anxiety underneath. I've found it takes a few days to adjust and then this subsides, its weird!

I'm glad things are looking good for you. I hated my relapse, I don't want to ever go back to that so it must be very hard to withdraw and keep going through it. Some of the people on here, like Nicola & Marie and also Hemps who has a recent thread on the ven board who has recently withdrawn after years on Diazepam, can help advise you. I always thought its very small decreases when you get to the low levels with that stuff but I've read some bad stories about how people have felt and you wouldn't think a drop of something so low would make you feel so bad but its clearly is a very difficult one to withdraw from.

Hopefully you will have a great summer!

Nicola - your psych sounds like an idiot. I think you shoulld speak to your GP and its good that he is aware of this persons attitude because he seems more open to helping you. It also smacks of arrogance for her to refer you for a second opinion to a further specialist and turn down their advice!

Please try to get beyond this. The NHS has its share of idiots & numpties. If you want a laugh, this really did happen:

My brother played a lot of football and was always breaking something. One Sunday he twisted his ankle in a bad tackle. He played on despite the pain and then decided to head for A&E. My dad picked him up (he was in his twenties back then) and he waited ages and finally a male nurse came out and ushered him into a cubicle. He explained the situation and the nurse responded with "which ankle is it" and after a few seconds of stunner silence my brother replied "its the one thats 4 times bigger than the other one!".

Pulisa - Hopefully the nice weather will help you both and it will be great for your daughter with her animals and any nature walks if she likes those too.

[Michelle1]

Hi Nic,

Your doing right swapping pdocs. Can't believe they refer you for second opinion and then won't do what's recommended.

Sounds like you have an understanding gp though which is good. We need all the support we can get. Like you my gp has been a star.

Also I have a friend who is a psychiatrist and gives me help and advice which is great.

Think I'm going to get some more Cbt sessions too just as an extra bit of support whilst going through the diazipam withdrawal.

Mirt and ven are supposed to work very well together so I hope you manage to get the right meds and wishing you all the best. You help so many people on here while going through your own personal battles.

Xx

[MoonShine69]

Hello, Nic!
Are you managing to hang in there? Pip is right, this is the level where you will be able to take benefit from norepinephrine as well as serotonin. It might be said that this is "why" we are prescribed the venlaxafine, rather than just an ssri. Be gentle with yourself, and give it a few more days. Try not to focus on "results" just now, but at the same time, after a month on this dose, don't be afraid to do another 37.5 boost if you are not quite where you want to be. I did, and am now very happy with 225! :D

I never thought I would go up to this dose, but it was what was needed, at least this first winter of the new med. I have days now where I feel the old happiness creeping back in, a complete 180 from where I was at a year ago. Of course, touch base with your doc, but mine had told me to just adjust the dosing as I felt comfortable doing. I know when we're a bit wobbly it's difficult to imagine feeling"comfortable" with an increase, but once you get there, (and it won't be long) you will too. And the further increase was not accompanied by this kind of side effects. It's the norepinephrine threshold thing. Good luck! :hugs:


Hi, sorry, but I don't suppose you could elaborate a bit more on the norepinephrine? I haven't heard of it, and I thought I read my Ven leaflet very carefully!:ohmy:

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi, sorry, but I don't suppose you could elaborate a bit more on the norepinephrine? I haven't heard of it, and I thought I read my Ven leaflet very carefully!:ohmy:

Ven is in a class of drugs known as Serotonin-Norepinephrine Reuptake Inhibitors (SNRI).

The serotonin element is just like SSRI's.

These add the addition of working with epinephrine and norepinephrine via a certain receptor in the brain which operates them both.

You might know epinephrine as "adrenaline" and norepinephrine as "noradrenaline"

[nicola1980]

Hi moonshine, basically ven works as an SSRI until go over 150mg and then it kicks into an SNRI working on your norepinephrine aswell, apparently that was the reason I had such bad side effects going from 150mg to 187.5mg, Terry might be able to explain it better than me!! XX

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi moonshine, basically ven works as an SSRI until go over 150mg and then it kicks into an SNRI working on your norepinephrine aswell, apparently that was the reason I had such bad side effects going from 150mg to 187.5mg, Terry might be able to explain it better than me!! XX

Thanks Nicola, I doubt it though :hugs:

As far As I can tell, SNRI's act as SSRI's until you reach a certain dosage. For Ven this is 150mg and for Duloxetine I think its 60mg. I think this is why you have to taper upwards when you start this is you have a pre exiting anxiety disorder so that you can take the side effects in stages. This seems right with my Duloxetine.

So, its only inhibiting wastage of serotonin up to that dose. Once it passes that dose it starts to interact with the inhibition of the receptor that both epinephrine & norepinephrine are connected to. Then the further you raise the dose, the further it raises the impact on these but no longer increases impact to serotonin which stays where it was prior to the threshold.

Thats as far as I have read on here and elsewhere anyway.

[MoonShine69]

Ven is in a class of drugs known as Serotonin-Norepinephrine Reuptake Inhibitors (SNRI).

The serotonin element is just like SSRI's.

These add the addition of working with epinephrine and norepinephrine via a certain receptor in the brain which operates them both.

You might know epinephrine as "adrenaline" and norepinephrine as "noradrenaline"


Thanks Terry :D

[hopey]

Hello nicola. Did not read your first message about increase. So sorry you are having a bed time.
Two weeks ago today I increased to 150 ven. My anxiety has been awful keep saying it is the pills but when will they kick in. My vision is very frightening and am having headaches and not wanting to go anywhere much. Do try to push myself but do not know if that is right or not. I had a baby at 9 months which did not live. A long time ago now but I do know how you must be feeling and do have sympathy for you.
My thoughts are with you and pray you will get stronger. Regards Hopey

[nicola1980]

Thankyou Hopey, I'm so sorry to hear of your loss, loosing a child is very hard, it's now been 7 months since my miscarriage and it still hurts very much but time is a great healer, i would not wish what I went thro on anyone but I think alot of my trauma could have been avoided with hospital intervention but unfortunately there isn't any compassion out there for miscarriages and your basically sent home to get on with it, at the time if I had been in the right frame of mind I would've done things alot differently but I was in shock and completely numb and just going thro the motions. As regards the ven my increase took about 3-4 weeks to kick in and even then it was rocky, give yourself some more time to adjust to the side effects of the increase, things will get easier XX

[hopey]

Hello nicola. Do hope you are having a better morning. Looking back I think we often think we would have done things better, but at the time it is shock and we do not think straight.
Well it is now just over two weeks since my increase and you say three to four
so I must be optomistic ! ! !
Do you get fearful? ? with vision ? . I do think the morning is a lot worse I do not know about you. Wish you the best of luck regards hopey xx

---------- Post added at 11:36 ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 ----------

Hi nicola. I too am a senior person. although it says on my :Hopey: i am junior have tried to get this altered but to no avail. Bye hopey

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi hopey,

I'm really sorry to hear about the loss of your child. I can't imagine how that felt.

What I can from my own experience of a SNRI though is that I too suffered badly when I crossed that threshold for the adrenaline to kick in. Mine is Duloxetine and the threshold is 60mg (the standard GAD dose) whereas yours is the 150mg.

I really struggled to cope just getting through the days as the agitation was pretty brutal. So, if you feel like you can't get out, don't feel too bad about this because its not that you are avoiding things due to normal high anxiety, this is side effect based on it will pass in its own time. This means it can also be difficult to use conventional techniques to reduce it but they could work if you try them.

Once it passes you will feel much better than this and will then be able to push forward again.

I'm sure you've read this thread and seen how it affected Nicola but she came through it. You will too so hang in there.

[hopey]

Hello nicola. Do hope you are having a better morning. Looking back I think we often think we would have done things better, but at the time it is shock and we do not think straight.
Well it is now just over two weeks since my increase and you say three to four
so I must be optomistic ! ! !
Do you get fearful? ? with vision ? . I do think the morning is a lot worse I do not know about you. Wish you the best of luck regards hopey xx

---------- Post added at 11:54 ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 ----------

To My name is Terry. Thank you so much for your helpful reply. Have read a lot of your very interesting letters. I think you know a great deal about the :Pills: I am really a bit "Thick" when it comes to absorbing information ! ! !


Your replies are always very informative. Thanks again Hopey.

[aprilmoon]

Just started an increase of 37-5 to take me up to 225mg.
3days in and anxiety seems worse than ever.
Anyone have any positive stories about when they started to feel benefits from an increase at this level?

[nicola1980]

Hi Aprilmoon, as you can see from my thread I suffered terribly with increased anxiety due to increasing from 150mg to 187.5mg, it really was hell and scared me to death but I was reassured it was totally normal so I struggled on, my Gp prescribed me Diazepam to help which helped take the edge off and I think the anxiety lessened at about the 3 week mark, it is awful and I know how your feeling but if you can stick with it I would as it was the best thing I ever did, i feel so much better, better than I've felt in years even people are commenting on how well I look and seem....watch me jinx it now!! I hope it gets easier for you soon XX

[Sparkle1984]

Hi Nicola, I'm glad to hear you are feeling much better now. I'm not on venlafaxine myself, but 4 weeks ago I started citalopram for the 3rd time after suffering a relapse. My mood is better now (although still not 100%) but I still have quite a bit of anxiety. I started on 10mg and only went up to the full 20mg 2 weeks ago. The heightened anxiety seemed much worse this time round, and more long-lasting compared to the first 2 times I was on these meds. I'm hoping it won't be too much longer until the anxiety dies down completely.

[nicola1980]

Hi sparkle, i took citalopram on and off for years and it always gave me increased anxiety when I first started it, once I started straight on 20mg and I was climbing the walls after my first tablet so I always used to start off on 10mg too gradually increasing, i have been as high as 40mg but was stable for years on 30mg, it's a good med but unfortunately after being on and off it years it didn't work last time around. Stick with it for a while longer and don't be afraid to increase slightly if you need too XX

[aprilmoon]

Thanks Nichola
I had a good read of your thread,and its helped me see that it's OK to feel like this,and that it will get better.
I've increased the Ven before,and never had any problem,but I think I'm also recovering after trying to cut down on my dose of Olanzapine.Bad idea. I've increased it back again,but it really unsettled me and knocked me for six.
I decreased it because I'd been feeling really "flat" for a while,and thought it was that that was causing it.
I now think what I needed was a Ven increase.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed,and hanging on as I wait for things to improve.
It's only been a few days yet,so I have to be patient.
Knowing how you came through it even better that before encourages me.

[nicola1980]

Keep posting hun and I'll help you through as much as I can XX

---------- Post added at 22:02 ---------- Previous post was at 21:58 ----------

I'm not sure whether your on the tablets or capsules form of ven but I find the capsules alot better and more effective XX

[aprilmoon]

Thank-you x

I'm on the tablets.Didn't know they came in capsule form xx

[nicola1980]

I've took both but this time I'm on the capsules and I find them more effective, i now ask it to be specified on my script capsules so I can stick to them, it might just be me but I swear there's a difference as does my friend who takes 225mg of ven XX

[aprilmoon]

I'm about 5 days in now with the increase,and my anxiety is still quite high.
Can't wait until I start feeling a bit better.
I feel flat and tired..
Also don't know if I'm over the blip of messing around with the Olanzapine,.
Could use some support right now.

[tommackent88]

Hi April. Sorry to hear you are having a tough time of it recently. I too have just increased the Ven so anxiety has spiked and I've not been in to work for a while.

From what I hear the first week or so after increasing is the worst so I hope you can power through. I see you have plenty of good people helping you through it.

Best wishes

[aprilmoon]

Thanks Tom
Sorry you're going through it too.
What amount are you on?
Hopefully we'll both be over the worst soon.
I've had increases in the past and it seemed to go much smoother than this.
Perhaps different levels work in different ways.

Best wishes

[tommackent88]

That's true. I'm only on 75mg increasing to 112.5 in a couple of weeks and we'll see where we go from there.

Are you feeling any better today? Was the lower dose just not working for you?

[aprilmoon]

Unfortunately not. My anxietys rocketed.
I've tried to just carry on with doing things,and not let it get the better of me,but its been very hard.
I've got some diazapan of a very low dose(2mg) and the other day I split one in half to see if it helped,but I think it was asking a bit much at such a low dose.
I might take one this evening as I don't have to drive anywhere else today,although I've always been very carefull about taking them.
I'm disappointed that I'm having this setback,as I'd been doing alright,but I made a mistake of reducing another med I take,Olanzapine ,down to just half a tablet a day because I though it was having an effect on me,and it knocked me for six.
I'm back on the full tablet now,and discussed an increase with the Ven with my doc,as I think that was what I should have done in the first place.
I'm on a much larger dose than you,225mg as its crept up over the years,although I was stable on 150 for quite some time.
Enough about me! How are you feeling?
Is your anxiety any better?
I

[nicola1980]

Hang on in there hun, i was just the same, my anxiety rocketed to a level that was absolutely unbearable, iywas laid in bed literally rocking, my Gp prescribed me Diazepam 2mg 3 x a day but to be honest it was such a low dose it barely took the edge off but did help slightly XX

[tommackent88]

Hi April
I'm very much the same. I'm hoping the 112 or a 150 dose will keep me level but these things just take so bloody long to get working!
I too take diazepam 2mg up to 3 times a day. When my anxiety is high (as it has been this week with the Ven increase) I'm taking 2 diazepam tablets the very second I wake up. This helps me hugely in getting up and about but then I crash mid - morning. I'm managing to get to work (minor miracle) but I end up having a panic attack and coming home. Also you hear all these things about diazepam tolerance, addiction etc so I have to get out of that routine pretty soon!

I also take propranolol (another one to add to the list) but I need to take it with food and I struggle to eat when I'm not home through fear of throwing up. So I'm in a no - win situation really!

So would you say your anxiety rocketed because you reduced your olanzapine? I made the mistake of reducing pregabalin too quickly - 600mg to 400 overnight which caused my anxiety to go through the roof. That was in march and I've only just got down to zero, hence then being allowed to start the ven

[aprilmoon]

Hi Tom
Don't they just take forever?:mad:
I share your pain with the morning waking.I can understand why you take the diazapan then,but the mid morning crash sounds awful.
I definitely think the sudden reduction in Olanzapine added to this.
I was doing ok on it ,but felt as though it was emotionally numbing me,so,against doctors advice,I cut down to see what it felt like. Mistake.
I'm hoping that as both meds settle down I'll start to feel better.
Why did you come off pregabalin?
It must have been hard going for you since March.We'll done for getting there.:)
It helps to know that someone else is going through the same difficulties.

[tommackent88]

Yes it really does help knowing others are in the same boat. I could spend all day on here.

What's the emotional numbing like? Does it just make you a zombie?

I came off the Pregabalin because i didn't feel it was helping me enough. Although now I feel that it was helping at the time. My CBT also said that the medication wasn't helping and just reinforcing the fact that I cannot cope with anxiety, which I agreed with. But really I just shot myself in the foot and now I'm back to square one!

[nicola1980]

Hi Aprilmoon, i successfully lowered my olanzapine to 2.5mg last September, it was hard but I managed it, I couldn't stand the weight gain and I've now lost over 1 and half stone but I did need my ven increasing hence this thread in Feb, i was close to increasing the olanzapine back to 5mg also but I'm glad I didn't and persevered with just the ven increase, i find ven very good but it does take a while to work in my opinion and the side effects aren't pleasant at all, I found the increase in my anxiety unbearable at times but hopefully your full dose of olanzapine will kick in again soon and that will def help you, stay strong XX

[aprilmoon]

Hi Tom
It's hard to describe, but its like you only experience a sort of 'middle ground' no highs,and no lows.Not very pleasant really.
How are you getting on today?
I find mornings are the worst.Still waiting to feel any real benefit from the increase.



Thanks Nicola
Well done on losing the weight!
I was hoping the Olanzapine would have helped more than it seems to be at the moment,just trying to be patient and ride it all out.

[pulisa]

Aprilmoon, I'm very sorry to hear that you are having such a rough time. I know that I originally sowed the seeds of doubt in your mind about your olanzapine dosage as you were feeling so flat. I'm really sorry that decreasing it has caused such an upset.

[aprilmoon]

Thanks Pulisa
Its ok,I would have done it anyway.
I had no idea that a few days cutback would have made such a difference, and I thought that as soon as I went back it would be alright.
I've had an awful day,and resorted to a diazapan this afternoon to try and take the edge of it.
It's possible that the Olanzapine is doing its stuff now,and its the Ven increase that's causing it,either way,I hope it resolves itself soon.:weep:
Once I do get back on track,I'm sticking with my dosages.

[pulisa]

I think diazepam is good for taking the edge off what feels like unbearable feelings of anxiety. I was given very high doses of it in hospital and it made me feel more human. And at the end of the day, that's what we all want..

I sincerely hope that things stabilise as soon as possible for you. This thread is full of excellent advice and knowledge from people who have been through it and come out the other side.

[tommackent88]

Hi April

Same again today. Had my mid morning panic attack and left work :( it's like clockwork!

I'll talk about it at CBT tomorrow!!

Sorry to hear you are still feeling naff. I have a feeling I'll be in the same boat in a few weeks!

[nicola1980]

Hi Aprilmoon, apparently olanzapine only takes 5 days to work so you right it's more than likely the ven increase causing your anxiety, use your Diazepam to help you thro, this what there for times like this, you need to get some respite from the anxiety, hang on in there it does get better XX

[aprilmoon]

Hi all

Sorry you've had another bad day Tom,it must be hard now for you when it gets around to "that" time of mid morning,thinking if it will happen again ?
What dose are you on now?

Nicola,I felt a real failure today taking the diazapan,to be honest,it didn't make an awful lot of difference earlier,I feel a bit more settled now.
The reason I took it was because I had a meeting to go to in someone's house,and I couldn't face being in an enclosed room space for a few hours feeling the way I did.
How long does diazapan take to work?
Got family coming up at the weekend,may resort to one then to get me through it.
I keep reminding myself of what you say Nicola xx

[nicola1980]

Your not a failure at all hun, i was on them daily when I increased my ven and 2mg is such a low dose that's if your anxiety is really bad then you would probably not notice much difference at that dose, you could try 2 2mg together at times when your desperate and need some respite, don't ad afraid to use them XX

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:50 ----------

Diazepam usually takes about 20 mins to kick in XX

[tommackent88]

Hi April. I agree with Nicola, that is what they are there for. I've used them daily during my Ven increase - I'd never leave the house otherwise. It's not a long term solution but if they are used sensibly it can keep you level until the Ven kicks in.

Personally I find I feel better in less than an hour and it helps me out for 3-4 hours xx

[aprilmoon]

Hi Tom and Nicola
Well today has been just as bad. Slept till lunchtime,then wandered round feeling weepy and very anxious and down.
I told two of my daughters today that I'm not doing very well,which was hard,as one of them has just had a beautiful baby,and the other is expecting,so I felt guilty and bad about me being like this.
I know it doesn't work like that,and this is an illness. They were both lovely,and I forced myself to go out for an hour or so with one of them,although to be honest,I felt like I could have stayed under the duvet or curled up on the sofa.
I just don't feel like doing anything.
Didn't take any diazapan today,but intend to over the weekend when I've got some family things going on.
How are you today Tom ?

[nicola1980]

I was exactly the same when I increased hun, i spent my time curled up in bed, I've got a 14 year old who I needed to get up for school everyday and that felt like such an effort I'd be a shaking quivering wreck then fall back into bed when he'd left for school, i rang my doctors, the crisis team etc panicking that I was going mad and all they said was it was side effects and to try and stick it out, to be honest I don't think they actually realised how awful I felt, i was so scared but slowly it got easier and I'm so glad I stuck it out because I was so close to stopping on numerous times XX

[tommackent88]

It's great that you got out today even if it was only for a short period. It's also good that your family are aware. I hope they are supportive...?

I'm very much the same. I work at home Fridays so it takes the pressure off a little! What I'm concerned about is the fact that I'm likely going to have to increase the Ven again and do another round of the heightened anxiety episodes. It's just a shame it takes to long to kick in.

[aprilmoon]

My family are supportive but I don't think you can understand how awful this illness can be unless you've experienced it.
I don't spell it out too much really to them,they know their mums a bit down,my husband knows more about how poorly I've really been in the past.
Tom,you may not be too bad when you next increase, I slipped from 150 to 187-5 without a hitch,strangely enough.
Thanks Nicola,mornings are by far the worst arnt they?

[tommackent88]

Thanks April. I do hope so.
Made the mistake of having a few drinks last night - what a div! Today is a complete write off.
I hope you have a good and positive weekend with your family!!

[aprilmoon]

On no!
Well you're only human.:shrug:
Hope you're feeling better tomorrow
This morning was awful again,so didn't hang about with the diazapan.
Think it helped a bit.
Roll on better days for us both:)

[aprilmoon]

Hi all
Well,would love to be able to say that there's much improvement, but sadly not.
I'm feeling more tired,and spacey,but the anxiety is still very much there.
Had family up yesterday,and no way did I feel up to it,but I pushed through it.
Was going to take a diazapan, but in the event I didn't,I just kept telling myself that I was doing well,and kept going.
Not experienced any lift in mood either. Do you think its still early days?
Will be 2weeks this Wed since I increased.
I'm just so confused about it all,and wondering whether I've even done the right thing by increasing,as it was my suggestion to the doctor,not the other way round.
Thinking of trying to get an appointmentl tomorrow to have a chat,see what they say.
Can't believe I was posting just a few weeks ago to say how well I was doing.
It's as soon as I awake in the morning before I even open my eyes, and its so disheartening.
I'm trying to still go about things and not curl up.

[tommackent88]

Hi April
Sorry to hear you are still not feeling any better. I don't know much about all these drugs etc but from what I've read it does take a good couple of weeks to settle down.
Perhaps it's also worth talking it through with the GP. It won't do any harm and it may put your mind at rest.
Also well done for holding back on the diazepam! Not sure I could have done the same!
T

[aprilmoon]

Well,went to see my gp,and he's referring me back to my Psych, which I'm glad about.
He also said that it could be side effects, but now I'm getting the opportunity to try and sort things out again.
Maybe I'll be put back on the Ven/Mirt combo,it certainly helped me last time.
Just want to start feeling better.

[tommackent88]

I think that's a good step forward.
I'm taking mirt too.
Do keep us informed, we want to see you improve. You have been a great support on here and I'd like to do the same. T

[aprilmoon]

Thanks Tom,:)
That's really kind.
Have you been taking Mirt for long?

[tommackent88]

I've been on 30mg for 2 (ish) months. I was on 15mg while I was on pregabalin, then as I came off the preg and started the Ven I was bumped up to 30mg. I can't be sure if it's working as well as it should because of all the changes with my meds over the last couple of months!

From what I have read I think this this helps the depression more than the anxiety.

[aprilmoon]

Yes,that was my experience last time.
I used to get some weird visual effects as I 'came to' in the morning,or if I woke up in the night. Sort of lots of swirly shapes before my eyes,don't know if you've ever experienced it.:wacko:
I was on 30 of Mirt,and 187-5 of Ven,and that brought me out of a bad depressive episode a couple of years back.
Aka California Rocket Fuel.:D
How's the CBT going?

[tommackent88]

Hi April. Surprisingly I don't think I've had any side effects from the mirtazapine!

CBT is okay but the fact that the meds are making the anxiety worse is not helping at all. I've worked from home this week and taken a couple of days leave to get this episode over and done with and hopefully start afresh next week.

Are you feeling any better??

[aprilmoon]

Hi Tom

That's frustrating with the CBT,do you have many sessions left?
It's good that you've been able to work from home while you're going through this difficult period ,fingers crossed you're through the worst now.
When are you due for your next increase?

I'm still struggling, thanks,haven't taken any more diazapan though.The doctor said one every other day,no more,so just hoping I'll get an appt with my Psych soon.

[tommackent88]

Hi April that's good you are keeping away from the diazepam. I've managed to do the same as I've been out of the office. Work have been very flexible luckily, although I feel they are getting a tad annoyed with it now!

I'm having CBT privately so I'm having regular weekly sessions. I've been doing so for about 8 months now. It's hurting my bank balance a bit, and I've had no major improvements for a while so I'm wondering whether I should phase them out...?

I'm due for my next Ven increase in 2 weeks but ive still not recovered from my last one. Part of me is thinking of suggesting just ramping up to 150mg asap to get the side effects over and done with, otherwise I'm just stringing this out even longer. What do u think?

[aprilmoon]

That's a difficult one.
Your next increase may not be as bad as this one was,but a steeper curve might make your symptoms much worse.
It's worth speaking to your doc though.
8 months is quite a long time to have weekly sessions of CBT. Perhaps you could discuss a date with your therapist for you both to work towards having a break?
Some people may think that's not a long time though.
I had about 20 weekly sessions on the NHS,and that was long enough for me,but that was for PTSD. It helped me a lot,but I'm thinking of applying for some more in the future for other issues.
That's good that you've managed to keep off the benzos :)