Free at last [Archive] - No More Panic

Davit

26-03-15, 17:12

I'm amazed, Why are you English so far ahead of us? There is a wealth of information here that echo's what I know. Difference is it took me five years to collect it and check it's authenticity. And it is accurate.
I do have to say that a lot of it is going to sound strange and foreign to the new person trying to deal with a scary new condition. But if you study it closely it makes sense. Every thing has a reason even panic attacks. No Voodoo here just simple step by step guiding your mind back to doing what it is supposed to do. But it will take time, how much time depends on how much you need to change. One very important note, the change will be to how you think, not who you are, you will not become a clone or a robot. You will become however free.
As you might have gathered I'm not here because I need help. I am still learning and will do so for all my life. The latest information I'm studying is the possibility that the connection between memory and past experience may be the cause for such physical ailments as Irritable bowel syndrome, Ulcers and other things that are affected by the action of glands controlled by the pituitary gland working off information from the hypothalamus. In other words your body is doing what it thinks it is supposed to do not what it should. Not that much different than panic attacks

Davit

MyNameIsTerry

27-03-15, 07:35

Welcome to NMP :welcome:

Well done for getting to that stage. I'm sure when you get 99% free its a million miles away from the constant issues and it must feel much more liveable.

Do you feel that by being able to embrace CBT's techniques that it will prevent any future relapse?

The past experience and memory relationship sounds fascinating. I'm sure I've heard this somewhere and it makes sense in terms of reaction since we know that the fear centre, the right Amygdala, makes associations between neurons hence we get our feelings coupled with certain places or certain things. Panic attacks are known to reoccur in places where they have been experienced before regardless of anxiety leading up to them and I know I have places where my anxiety symptoms are more intense due to the association with that location from when I was at my worst e.g. side effects periods of starting medication and where I spent most of my days at that point in my house avoiding any further possible triggers until the side effects passed. I've read that the right Amydala is not the only part that is connected to fear & memory storage and that the hippocampus is involved in that process. Would they have any impact on the conditions you are researching?

Its all interesting because whilst there can be a gene involved, anxiety is learnt behaviour afterall as we see as our anxiety disorders worsen over time. We can "unlearn" them via learning healthy behaviours to create new neural pathways, via neuroplasticity in the same way we learnt our unhealthy ones, which are used instead of the old unhealthy ones and then they start to be broken down over time and binned. You have obviously relearnt healthy behaviours in conquering your panic attacks.

Davit

27-03-15, 09:01

It isn't so much embracing CBT as what CBT did.
All thought passes through controls before it becomes action. The first control and a usually subconscious one is survival. "is this thought or action I'm observing dangerous." " how dangerous." Not, then ignore it, possibly, then what did I do in the past (memory) New perceived thought with no answer from previous memory., go to semsntic memory. (associated) find something close. Semantic memory is connected to episodic memory in the Hypothalamus area Episodic memory puts together a thought or idea to form the action. The thought or action cycles back to Memory and is stored as an up date for future reference. It also cycles back to the original thought or trigger to stimulate the next thought or action (as in putting one foot in front of the other. Or, thats not just a red car, is it a porche.) This is called a thought triangle and is drawn with three sides and connecting arrows. It is on the internet. But I got it from my therapist. Every action forms a chemical code that opens a sequence of memories when it is triggered. The code will not allow a different memory. CBT blocks the code and replaces it with a different one. Episodic memory controls the hypothalamus which controls the pituitary gland which controls other glands.
So the question is if in past a thought based on a food caused IBS could a thought in memory do it again just from eating that food. Say instructing the kidneys to not salvage water from the large bowel or salvage too much.
Interesting but no way to prove it except to use CBT to change the memory.
Memories do deteriorate in pieces from lack of use but it takes a very long time. Memory is not stored as episodes but as pieces put together. those pieces can be part of many episodes. This is why we can store so much information

two in the morning here in Canada.

---------- Post added at 02:01 ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 ----------

If you can visualize the triangle you can see how panic cycles around and around to become an attack till built in limiting controls finally let go. That limiting ontrol can be anywhere from minutes to hours in different people. And it can be shortened with CBT.
CBT works between memory and action to stop the cycling. And this is why CBT works.

MyNameIsTerry

27-03-15, 09:43

CBT works by making use of conscious thought, as in the prefrontal cortex, in responding to data driven by the subconscious. The subconscious, afterall, cannot make decisions but send data to the conscious brain for a decision hence fight or flight. Then its all about changing how the subconscious responds to stimuli which can take much longer as it needs to relearn its response, hence why behavioural therapy works. Its interesting how whilst the learning process is the same, it doesn't flag up other processes e.g. how do I drive, it just performs it so there must be an element of indecisiveness involved or a flag or something so that it bounces all anxiety to the conscious mind for a decision.

I also find the concept of distraction and intrusive thoughts interesting. Some say to use distraction however there is also thought that by ignoring instead of not judging, you reinforce the thought by telling the subconscious that your reaction is sufficient to justify the thought as a valid process. So, its difficult finding what works given the different views.

Don't sell yourself short, the one thing about CBT is that it only works if you work hard at changing how you respond. CBT can't make changes to the subconscious alone, (the response has already occurred prior to the data being gathered and pushed to the prefrontal cortext) it needs a push to make those changes and it doesn't always work as CBT is not a guaranteed method, other forms of psychotherapy seem to work as well.

Davit

27-03-15, 20:18

CBT seems to be a catch all phrase for a lot of things that are only partially. Coping skills are only part of CBT unfortunately a lot of people never get past them into the cognitive part. I did. But it took a lot of research.
I will never have another panic attack even though I have the same potential to have one as everyone else. The closest I will get will be a claustrophobic night mare and that will depend on what I eat late and what medication I'm on.

99% cured would be one panic attack every hundred days. Anxiety, panic and worry are almost non existent. Concern yes, worry and anxiety and it's partner panic, no, gone. Five or more years panic attack free. It is not coming back. Technically only I can bring it back and why would I.

---------- Post added at 13:18 ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 ----------

In the case of distractions. The object is not to distract but to move the thought away from the panic thought to something else and this is done by having more thoughts at one time than the mind can juggle. This can be anywhere from 5 to 9 with the average being six before a person starts to lose them. If the six (or more) are related then the earliest will be dropped unless you are so determined to keep it active that you keep bringing it to the front. Otherwise technically if done right distractions work. It is up to you to learn how or your Therapist to explain it. Eg, stare at the pattern on the floor, think about your shoe colour, are your socks mismatched, are my laces done up, keep going, you need at least six. Looking out the window works better, more unrelated things to think about. A good one and one that is popular is thinking of people as different types of dogs. But you need six or more.

MyNameIsTerry

28-03-15, 08:36

I think thats because when you have CBT, you don't really have CBT...you have a bespoke needs based treatment otherwise you would end up usng tools & techniques that are irrevelent to your case. Its for the therapist to conduct the right line of questioning and determine what is the best way forward. For some, this may mean more behavioural techniques, some require more ERP aqnd others need to work more on thoughts hence getting more into the cognitive side.

For me, behavioural works better as my mind is very analytical so its hard to change my logical views which can easily say "this is just wordfs, this can't change physical processes in the brain". This becomes easier as you recover but at first I think you can be very resistant to changing cognitive distortions if you have this type of mindset.

In terms of distarction, I was doing counting backwards from 100 (often multiple times) and staring at an object intently for several minutes. I would have issues with using a thought based method as I had various forms of OCD so can do that and become more anxious with the neverending internal monologue but if it works for some, great.

Maybe a varation would be to take the elements of the exercise and apply then in a Mindfulness way by really noticing how the subjects look, sound, feel, etc.

Distractions are more of panic too. When you get into GAD with 24/7 anxiety, they don't work or only work for a very short time. I think thats when distractions become more about healthy behaviours e.g. hobbies so that you can emerse yourself in a longer activity.

Davit

28-03-15, 16:31

I'm not autistic but do see thoughts in pictures, often multiple choices and three dimensional. Standing on the left side of my tractor I can see the right side very clearly. Building something I can see all the components and if there are two many I clump them into pages like folders that I open as I need them. I do this building anything. House, garden, garage, landscaping, anything that would normally be on paper I carry in my mind. In the case of house. Plumbing and wiring were different from framing and I could overlay them. There were no mistakes. I am probably on the high end of being able to hold multiple thoughts, but not as high I think as the high score game players here. To be really good at that you have to be able to subconsciously hold a lot of possibilities in your head. You need interest too and I lack that with games.
Chess bores me.
I agree that CBT is person specific and it takes a therapist to sort out what you need best most of the time. I feel though that you need good behavioural skills before attempting cognitive because the stress of changing core beliefs can bring on panic and you need skills to counter it while doing it. That might just be me because I have good imagination. (associated/semantic memory) Being good at problem solving makes you good at problem creating.

I forgot to mention in stacking the more you can add to the thought the better. such as with the horse, smell, colour, stance and anything else to flood your thoughts, as panicgurl does by sorting by size. It is called stacking because you are stacking thoughts on top of the panic thought to make it irrelevant. The important points are what you use has to be neutral, it can not be related to the panic thought and it can not have negative possibilities. Do not use horses or dogs if you are scared of them or boats if you have a water phobia. Mindfulness would strengthen it.
I think if people stay within the framework how they do it isn't important, what is, is the stacking.

Davit

31-03-15, 05:45

I've been playing Bubble shooter. I'm going to see how quickly I can clean the board instead of looking for a high score. To do that as soon as you get to the top row you leave nothing there but one or two colour. Not as easy as it sounds. Much like changing thought patterns. And I did that so I should be able to control my thoughts enough to do this.

MyNameIsTerry

01-04-15, 05:40

I agree Davit, I think the behavioural element is easier to engage with, albeit its going to be about forms of exposure & confidence building with such as Behavioural Activation (doing more stuff to us laymen!), as we tend to learn a lot through doing. The cognitive side is harder to make work just like how acceptance is very hard to actually perform as it doesn't seem to work for a while.

Stacking seems a good one. The only thing I think that would need care would be the tendency of those of us with OCD to createa ritual out of a healthy behaviour, so perhaps altering the theme would suffice.

If thats the bubble shooter I'm thinking of, yeah it tends to throw alternate colours out so it can take more than a few tries to get rid of the last one.

I noticed you talked about your home life on another thread. You seem very isolated in your region so how did that help or hinder you? Was it a real problem and anxiety ate away at social skills or was a a boon because you were very self sufficient and had to carry on regardless?

Davit

01-04-15, 08:17

Doesn't take long for a game to make me look stupid especially when i'm tired but it does put in time when I'm too sore to do anything else. I keep losing three colours when I only want to lose one. Only time I have time is when I'm tired. Spring is here and my house is full of flats of started plants and will be for six weeks. Some will go to the green houses sooner. Does anyone use gardening for relaxation?

---------- Post added 01-04-15 at 00:17 ---------- Previous post was 31-03-15 at 23:56 ----------

OCD yes, That is why you use more than one theme and change them around. It has no fixed way only one rule, the thoughts have to be neutral. Is OCD common, I only know one person. I know a few Bipolar and two schizophrenic. CBT doesn't do much for them.
Medication does though.
I have been gardening for over fifty years and always found it relaxing. I also found the quality so much better than the store. I'm not obsessive about it though I do have a set way of doing thing, but only because it works. There are rules though that make flower beds look that way though.
I found the cognitive side of CBT hard because Core beliefs think they are protecting us and don't want to change. It is their job. But once done they take the new way on as permanent and don't want to change again. Acceptance is about as hard as actually believing. It is fine to read it and practice it but you really have to believe it for it too work.

Isolation can be a two edged sword. I like it but have been alone in work and play for most of my life. Common law three times for a total of twenty years. Some people can not handle being alone. I'm not alone, I have cats, I had farm animals and before that I had a dog team. I do enjoy the quiet and for me it helps. I did not start out this way, it was forced on me and I adjusted and then didn't want to change back, I still don't. Hospitals are very social with no privacy. I got used to it. Even started to like it. I think given time people can adjust.

MyNameIsTerry

01-04-15, 09:21

Yeah, I think so too. You retrain to the situation, you can't fight it forever so things become a different normal to you.

I think there are some gardeners on here. I know Carnation loves gardening for her anxiety. Its something that a local mental health charity, that I am a member of, recommend and often have information on government schemes revolving around it. You usually find that any charity that has residential buildings e.g. the respite ones, need volunteers to help them look after the grounds or with any projects e.g. sensory gardens for inpatients. My dad was a landscape gardner for a long time (30+ years). I have a very fond memory of working weekends with him when I was a young lad...and when annyone ever asks I always say that it was the only job that I felt I truly enjoyed.

There don't seem to be many people on here with OCD. However, there is some debate over whether HA is part of the OCD spectrum, so if they ever decide on that maybe there will be a lot on here as its mostly HA. Its very common though and there are several large forums in the UK for it. Its very diverse with its themes and its one you have to read about to understand so you don't think you are losing your mind!! CBT is supposed to be good for it but in my case the GAD was halting progress so it wasn't very effective although I had more success with it after finishing because I had started Mindfulness a few months prior which helped more than anything.

Core beliefs are a definate one to look at, they are the foundations afterall. Its like the house of sand, you don't keep rebuilding without addressing the foundations.

I recall you saying there weren't many Canadians on here on your other thread. I've seen a few, the most prominent one for me is SADNoMore (Marie) who is on a fair bit. Otherwise its more Uk & US and the odd person from all over the world. I think its great its global though, there are no barriers in mental health afterall so its good to talk to people from different cultures and see what they have to face. Like yourself, and Marie, there are the issues that remoteness brings, the weather issues & daylight up there, etc. It all gives everyone appreciation for others and then we get to see how other doctors respond.

Davit

01-04-15, 14:50

It is an interesting thing about my core beliefs as they changed with repeated wanting them to that there was no line where they did. After years of chronic anxiety I woke up one morning to the realization I had been doing things and thinking different. Of course I had to pick at it and right away said "don't go there". The natural reaction is "is it really gone". If I look for it now it is just a fact, A hazy remembrance from a while ago. I'm pretty safe now but feel a while ago I could have given it attention and brought it back again. After all it is hidden away in memory and always will be. This storing is complicated. It is stored as pieces not the actual episode as is. These pieces are used in other episodes and put together by codes. so as long as The triggers don't request that code I won't put the pieces together to cause a panic attack. Over time with lack of use the code fades but never totally goes. Deja Vu is accidentally accessing a code in a random search and Gad may be also. I think everyone knows GAD is Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I personally don't believe it comes out of the blue, I believe it is a random subconscious search of the codes looking for answer to a subconscious question (trigger) So I guess it would be out of the blue in a sense. The treatment would seem to be then a repeated statement conscious or sub conscious that this trigger is the wrong answer, find another and let your mind find another code to put the pieces together in a more positive answer. This is all buried some where on the net and in a book on how the mind works and how memory is involved in it.
Memory is not one but four major ones interconnected and controlled by others, Hippocampus being the major one and the storage of fear memories.
The mind works on appropriate and doesn't separate right and wrong, either can be considered appropriate. Repetition makes thoughts appropriate and turns them into core beliefs. I think with Health anxiety a person tends to make these appropriates into core beliefs without the adequate questioning control needed when building appropriate thought. Possibly why part of CBT says to question all your thoughts in relation to negative and positive. Cognitive is harder to do because it varies with the situation, behavioural has pretty set choices when coping. So if coping makes it go then why go further. Cognitive requires looking at the reason and this is stressful. But it is necessary to change it. You can't fix something unless you know why it is broke. So I tell people if they need a little medical help to do the cognitive, by all means do it, you won't need it after. Just don't get used to the meds and not do the cognitive. That is far too easy to do.

MrAndy

01-04-15, 15:27

my therapist told me you cant change your core beliefs but can change the thoughts around the outside of them.I think I agree with him and found CBT very helpful at the time

Davit

01-04-15, 18:37

What he meant I believe is you can not erase them from memory but you can change your thoughts toward them building others to use in place so you will in a sense have two, but they will have different access codes, a fork in the neuron trail if that helps to visualize it. With time and use the new one gets stronger and the old one fades unless you keep looking for it, and this looking for it because it wants you too to can be a problem to establishing a new one. Once established the neuron trail it uses becomes very strong. I have big mental sign in front of the old core beliefs that blocks access to them. It says bull shit and pops up every time I think about them. It works because I truly believe they are bullshit. Some of them the sign says not relevant because although disturbing they are true. A core belief does not have to be false to cause anxiety. We all have skeletons in our closets. In case you think your mind will become over loaded with information, it can't because it doesn't store it as completes but as codes that draw pieces from memory to put them together and make completes. Both core beliefs will have some of the same pieces in there make up. With positive thought the tendency is to use the pieces only to make up the thoughts that are the new core belief leaving the not wanted one in the negative thoughts file to grow weaker. All survival thoughts are negative so there is a large memory storage for them where they are accessible to the hippocampus which is where fear is stored. CBT works best if you know why it works but still works even if you don't.

MyNameIsTerry

02-04-15, 05:13

Its interesting Davit and since you've been researching this something I find confusing is how what we no longer use, we destroy. I'm unclear on this and the only thing I can think of is that it applies to lesser thoughts/learning where chains are broken because we have the old saying afterall "you never forget how to ride a bike" and its true. If there was true deletion of learnt behaviour, how would that explain why I can get on a bike after not riding one for 10 years and still be able to do it.

Don't forget the right Amygdala as well, the fear centre.

CBT promotes change in core beliefs. Core beliefs are what we associate with early lessons in life. I'm unsure whether we can probe that deep but given our attitudes change throughout life, so do beliefs. There is even Schema Therapy which was created specifically for this. So, are core beiefs really core, or just the ones we learnt first that we hang onto? The longer you suffer with an anxiety disorder, the more your Schema (beliefs) change to match the new situation. An example is when you have a good day and question why when you should just be happy about it and this is because anxiety has become the new normal, the belief is that you should be anxious. So, is there is difference between these and the very early morals we learn? At the end of the day, anything can be broken if you know how and put people under severe levels of targeted stress...but thats more for the powers that be!

Davit

02-04-15, 07:13

According to what I have read on this and there is no proof, pieces of information over very long time do get lost, but we both know this can only happen if the cells die and this seldom happens outside of dementia. One study says micoplasma can cross the blood brain barrier and could be the cause of the die off that causes Alzheimer's. Another study showed those taking low dose antibiotics long term for Chronic infection or Arthritis don't get Alzheimer's. The information is too new, it needs more proof. Chemically blocking access to certain memories makes more sense to me as in extreme PTSD. Dopamine would likely be the neurotransmitter to do this because it is the only one that can both open and close synapses.

Davit

07-04-15, 17:10

Today I ache. I spent tree hours sitting on a hard wooden bench bent over weeding asparagus. Backs of my legs are sore. I don't have HA so don't think it is a blood clot or that my sore neck is a tumour. Not that I haven't in the past but ruling it out was enough. It must be horrible to have HA. I have so many things wrong that I could attribute to something else. So i've wondered if HA is worse if you are in perfect health. Does it lessen if you actually have a few real things wrong you can focus on.

Davit

07-04-15, 22:33

Changed my Avatar to one that best describes how panic attacks were for me.

Carnation

07-04-15, 23:33

Love your new Avatar Davit. :)

Just found this Thread and enjoyed reading it.
I too, like Terry says, enjoy Gardening. It has done wonders for my Anxiety. I use it as one of my tools if I am highly stressed and it always calms me down.
I am in the process of growing a large variety of Tomatoes.
I have set up an area in the shed against the window and watching the progress is very exciting.
I normally stick to plants, but this is a new challenge for me.
The Earth is very special to me, I feel a rapport with it. It's creating and I've always been that way inclined. I like to Landscape and make features and create colour and pleasing things to the eye. I love trees and I told Terry a while back that apparently 'Tree Hugging' is very therapeutic for Mental illness.

I found CBT very helpful. Some of it came from my Therapist and the rest I applied myself from gathering info to other Member's help on here.
I have managed to improve from 10% to 80% in 1 year, with occasional blips that I now understand to be part of the recovery.

I have also suffered from Health Anxiety, which is truly unbearable.
If you have this as well it throws the GAD into oblivion and hinders the recovery time.

Panic Attacks have to be the worse in my opinion. And the 'Fear' of the Panic Attack, well, it's like a vicious circle. I just got so fed-up with it in the end, I just thought, "Oh heck, I'm just going to do what I want to do and If I suffer, I suffer. I can't carry on living like this". And it is the 'Fight' that got me through. Mind you, it wasn't easy

Yes, I am an OCD sufferer. Was like this before Anxiety came in to my life.
Don't know why, does anybody? And different degrees as well.
I like order and I have to be in control of a situation. Not a control freak, but have to prepared in any sort of situation, especially in emergency situations.
I have an issue with cleanliness, mainly the general public. Restaurants, cafes, toilets, how food is prepared, stored and cooked. Things in wrong places like books in the wrong category or alphabet order. I have a problem with symmetrical and items off balance. Precision is a big one for me. Everything in the kitchen cupboards is labels to the front and in their categories. The list is endless and it annoys me know end.
I am trying to break some of these habits, which I believe to be a help with the Anxiety.

One of biggest helps, has been my Cat. They say that animals are great for people with Anxiety. I love most animals and would have loved your Farm Animals Davit.

Anyway, before I drivel on any longer, pleased to have found your post and if I can be of any help, I am here. :)

Davit

08-04-15, 05:30

At fifteen years of age an annoyed teacher told a bored student he was wasting his time in school instead of bumping him up and giving him a challenge. So I dropped out. For fifty hard earned dollars I bought two trap line cabins from a trapper whose girl friend had been shot and killed by a previous boy friend. They weren't much but i would go on the weekend with friends and we would fish mostly. Funny thing is we could get marijuana but not beer. Too young. One weekend we were to meet there but I was the only one to show up.
Turns out some one sold them beer. I was terrified. I'd never spent a night alone. Next day same thing but the fear wasn't so bad. Well I wasn't working and I wasn't in school so I went home, got my dog and groceries and moved there. I almost froze the first winter.
I got a job unloading barges in the summer and EI in the winter. Used to be called UIC then. In summer I lived in the bunk house. When they replaced the deck on the docks I bought the 4x8s and built a new cabin in the next inlet. I towed the decking around by boat. This cabin was solid and the roof insulated. That winter I was warm. I had six dogs and a sled and toboggan. In summer I had a job. I became quite the recluse but never had any panic. Life was good. The mine town was closing and I wasn't going to have a job anymore and there was a woman. Isn't there always. We packed up, gave away all but one of the dogs and headed to BC. Two provinces west. No work there but there was in Alberta. I inherited enough money to buy land in BC. but worked in Alberta. Four years later we decided if one of us could get work we would move. Jennie got work and I got part time doing what I could. The life proved too hard for Jennie, she moved to town. I'm still here but living on a better piece of land. My first panic attack happened after an operation. The anesthetic was still in my system but anne (just a friend) thought we should have beer with lunch. Anne liked her beer. Wow, back to ER. thought I was having a heart attack. I was checked out and given Ativan and a prescription. I wish they had never said it was a panic attack, that set the wheels in motion and for ten years life went down hill. It took a year to get off the Ativan and a few years of study and therapy to end the panic attacks and anxiety. That was five years ago. And I have been doing research those last five years. If I wasn't old and happy I would go back to school.

I used to be obsessive but I wouldn't call it OCD, I liked things in their place I liked my house clean. One day I noticed this perfectly straight rows and perfect spacing didn't look as nice as mother nature so I quit doing that. I'm more random now and when things are straight and properly spaced it is because that is how it is supposed to be. It isn't obsessive anymore. Even today when a spider landed on me in the car and I got a little too close to the ditch I didn't panic.
CBT was the outline, or pattern but what I did was specific to my needs within the guidelines of CBT. Stacking is mine based on a principle off the internet, Want to verses have to is mine also based on necessity. Oranges and apples is mine but is also a fact my Therapist is familiar with. Not sure if it is on the net. Some of what she taught me is not. Like the panic triangle. it is not but there are similar things. Seratonin information and memory and how the brain works are on the internet and very interesting all be it a bit technical.
80% panic free is considered recovered, I'm sure people can do better. I'm better than 99%. I will have night mares, but never a panic attack again. Eating too late can make me a bit edgy. I'd very much like to see everyone recover. So many people have said the cat in the bowl is how panic fear feels to them. Not my cat, mine are both siamese colour.

MyNameIsTerry

08-04-15, 05:56

The more you post, Davit, the more I feel like I'm reading a book or watching a film!

Mines more, teachers were just there to earn money, went to college, started drinking on the town, started working, kep drinking!, worked myself too hard and ended up like this. Work was mainly office work at various levels, all boring corporate BS in the rat race that meant nothing and never changed anything.

Is the panic triangle the same as the panic cycle diagrams?

Davit

08-04-15, 16:09

The panic triangle has three corners. It should have five, but two are actions between. First corner is observation thought or trigger in panic thoughts, second corner is memory where the answer for the first thought is stored, third corner is the reaction from memory in the second corner. Between the first and second is a subconscious survival check that decides if the first thought or observation is worth bothering with even. (back ground noise, perifferal vision etc.) So every thing you think or see is the first corner, that which is considered important goes to memory for a decision based on previous experience.That decision gives you the reaction to what you saw or thought (heard felt etc) The reaction cycles back to memory to update it or leave it alone if it is satisfactory.It also cycles back to the original thought, (first corner) to stimulate continuity of the thought or start a new one. In panic memory doesn't have a logical answer if it is a new trigger so guesses or if it is a previous trigger it uses what it did last time. The reaction then is panic which cycles back to both corners and if the answer it is using does not satisfy fight or flight it continues to go round the triangle till it gets one or it times out. Confusion comes in when memory in fear and desperation draws off associated memory looking for an answer. So instead of doing the whole three corners in a nano second subconsciously it now comes to the surface as important and is either normal panic which you change between second and third corner so it goes back to the first and second corner as not important or you give it importance here and it cycles around as a panic attack. All thought has this option between memory of a previous solution and reaction to it called choice. Core beliefs are in the second corner and dictate what it will use. I bet you could almost paint OCD on this triangle. Mindfulness would probably fit between the first and second corner to keep thoughts to a certain pattern. Attitude and perception do. Triggers are just triggers, what you do with them is what matters.
My core beliefs are all spin offs to something that happened when I was three. The trauma started a thought which my mother reinforced instead of correcting. I couldn't correct it because I had no similar situation to use for a pattern. So you can see that the first half of my life although good was a major avoidance of anything related to this trigger or it's spin offs. Any attempt to caused anxiety usually in the form of head aches. You can continue to build core beliefs for the rest of your life, especially if you are climbing the success ladder which I seldom did because there was no need do to, my personality being Orange rather than Apple. I don't know if Apples and Oranges is on the net but My therapist knows what I mean by it. And says it is a fact with people fitting in between also. My brother went the same route as you as did his wife, the difference is they were only interested in the money. Which there was a hell of a lot of. Different core beliefs. I would have not survived trying to do what they did with ease. I'm an introvert so living in a cabin with six dogs for company and transportation was an ideal peaceful life. (not six dogs in the cabin) Anxiety never showed up till I tried to leave that mold. I'm back in that mold, ( canadian spelling, mould) only without the dogs. There were farm animals instead. So i guess I will go to my grave avoiding stress because I can because I like this life.

Davit

10-04-15, 05:11

[ATTACH]2319[/ATTACH

This should be the triangle in JPEG how do I open it.

Davit

10-04-15, 05:12

Ah, just click on triangle jpg

Davit

08-05-15, 19:09

Gone to garden. I will be limiting my time on here. Yu can still PM me or if you have my Email use it. It is real nice out today and there is much to do. Planting potatoes now.

Sam123

08-05-15, 20:12

As long as you don't desert us for too long, i will allow it

:D

MyNameIsTerry

10-05-15, 06:54

As long as you don't desert us for too long, i will allow it

:D

Crikey Miss :whiplash:

:D

Sam123

10-05-15, 08:33

Crikey Miss :whiplash:

:roflmao:

Davit

10-05-15, 10:36

I am putting in more time gardening and it does need to be done. But it will settle down as soon as everything is planted. I'm only good for a few hours. It doesn't look like rain so I'll need to hook up the pond pump, the garden is too big to water off my well.

Davit

16-05-15, 02:12

I offered a scientifically based cure for anxiety, very new and based on the latest information available. It works for the ones willing to study it and put in the time, but it seems doing the time honoured thing that sort of works is preferred. There certainly are not many success storeys for something that is supposed to work. I could certainly believe there is no recovery if I didn't know better. But I do know better. If it was not for the fact that one hell of a lot of people are reading the threads I'd delete them and move on. I'll just leave them, they will get buried under all the other threads which for the most part are just neutral although their have been some quite negative threads. Funny thing is I can't find anywhere on the internet where it says anxiety is terminal and there is no cure yet that is how it is treated. Why? Is it that much easier to just give up. I'm talking cure not control before a bunch of you say your medication works. Sorry but anything with side effects is not a cure. All this HA with imagined diseases sucking up your time when you could be treating a condition you do have. Or at least trying. I have two cousins taking their prozac everyday and the world doesn't look rosy, it just doesn't look bad. Poor trade I think. I'm glad I couldn't go that route. I tried. The docs were glad to write out a prescription and push me out the door. Did they work, not really, I still had panic attacks at best I was mellow, at worst I was a hazard on the road with a slow reaction time. I missed a few intersections and had to take the next. They didn't keep me out of the psych ward. So here I am, anxiety free, but you don't know me, I could be lying to you. So I guess if you want to know if it really works you will just have to give it an honest try. In the mean time if anyone has got 80% or better it would be nice to hear because this site is sadly lacking in positive posts and success stories.

MyNameIsTerry

16-05-15, 04:41

Its never been any different since I joined, in fact I think the discussions about management of anxiety rather then recovery have decreased.

Why do people think its permanent? Our doctors appear to be telling people this when they should know better. We have CBT and I think a lot of people are quite negative about it, me included. Why? Because we are having a stripped down version that was created to fit into service gap to reduce waiting lists.

I left CBT thinking "is that is?!" and the more I've read about, the more I have realised I didn't really have CBT, more a sort of advanced version of Guided Self Help.

I see statistics and people saying CBT works, but where are all the people it has worked on and what were the differences between their conditions in terms of complexity & severity? Why have we got loads of forums full of people not getting better?

When I had my CBT I hit a brick wall, one I'm still trying to deal with today, and there was no answer to this in CBT. So, I left it feeling negative about it. The therapist was really nice, but I didn't feel CBT had much power at all. I've done better on my own.

If this is other peoples experiences then they may be skeptical about following it again.

Something to remember about NMP is that its not really NMP anymore, its largely NMHA. Very few people talk on the OCD board, the Phobias board barely moves and the positive boards don't see much action. The dominant boards are HA by far and then Symptoms and GAD. So, if you post on one of the lesser viewed boards, like the Panic one, you won't get many responses. I've found that the HA board is more a sort of forum within a forum and many memebers are not seen talking on the other boards so may not see your threads.

Since I've been here I've seen about 3 debates on why the HA board is just about issues and not people tackling HA. On each occasion I have asked how people want to change it for the better and only one person responded. Unless people are going to go to Nic & the admins and give them ideas, it will remain as it is. Its that simple. The result seems to be that HA people looking for discussions on recovery only have moved on to newer discussion groups set up to do this as opposed to creating change on here. The result then is a bigger distortion, a skew to the negative on NMP.

---------- Post added at 04:41 ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 ----------

Also, who is steering the ship? The ship steers itself as far as I see.

Unless threads are created that are aimed at discussion, it will just stay the way it is.

Davit

16-05-15, 05:03

The worst part I think is negative breeds negative. I don't know how you stop it. I'm vicarious so I feel what others describe. I have to keep in mind HA sufferers really believe they have these things. But If they can believe this strongly in a negative way, could they believe just as strong in a positive way.

As far as I'm concerned if CBT doesn't have all five steps it isn't CBT. For some the watered down version might work. As a faller I quickly learned you do it right or you get hurt. There are no short cuts and you don't rush. Do it right and you get to go home. There is variation in the five steps, different relaxation, different coping but the mind works with certain rules and those boundaries you must stay within. There are things that work that I'm against because they affect others in a negative way. If you teach your body to be aggressive towards anxiety you will have a tool that is hard not to use elsewhere. Assertive though you have more control of.
Anyway without more positive posts nothing will change.

MyNameIsTerry

16-05-15, 05:41

I think it depends on how mild your anxiety is. If its like mind with difficult GAD, now OCD and 9 years worth of negative thinking that has twisted my core beliefs - its going to need quite a push.

To put CBT in the UK into perspective lets look at what our clinical excellence body, NICE, says about the the CBT we offer to people with GAD (it differs for OCD and other forms, there is no guidance on HA though as its not a diagnosable condition afterall)

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg113/chapter/1-Guidance

Step 2: Diagnosed GAD that has not improved after step 1 interventions
Low-intensity psychological interventions for GAD
1.2.11For people with GAD whose symptoms have not improved after education and active monitoring in step 1, offer one or more of the following as a first-line intervention, guided by the person's preference:

individual non-facilitated self-help
individual guided self-help
psychoeducational groups. [new 2011]

1.2.12Individual non-facilitated self-help for people with GAD should:

include written or electronic materials of a suitable reading age (or alternative media)
be based on the treatment principles of cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT)
include instructions for the person to work systematically through the materials over a period of at least 6 weeks
usually involve minimal therapist contact, for example an occasional short telephone call of no more than 5 minutes. [new 2011]

1.2.13Individual guided self-help for people with GAD should:

include written or electronic materials of a suitable reading age (or alternative media)
be supported by a trained practitioner, who facilitates the self-help programme and reviews progress and outcome
usually consist of five to seven weekly or fortnightly face-to-face or telephone sessions, each lasting 20–30 minutes. [new 2011]

1.2.14Psychoeducational groups for people with GAD should:

be based on CBT principles, have an interactive design and encourage observational learning
include presentations and self-help manuals
be conducted by trained practitioners
have a ratio of one therapist to about 12 participants
usually consist of six weekly sessions, each lasting 2 hours. [new 2011]

1.2.15Practitioners providing guided self-help and/or psychoeducational groups should:

receive regular high-quality supervision
use routine outcome measures and ensure that the person with GAD is involved in reviewing the efficacy of the treatment. [new 2011]

Step 3: GAD with marked functional impairment or that has not improved after step 2 interventions
Treatment options
1.2.16For people with GAD and marked functional impairment, or those whose symptoms have not responded adequately to step 2 interventions:

Offer either

an individual high-intensity psychological intervention (see 1.2.17–1.2.21) or
drug treatment (see 1.2.22–1.2.32).

Provide verbal and written information on the likely benefits and disadvantages of each mode of treatment, including the tendency of drug treatments to be associated with side effects and withdrawal syndromes.
Base the choice of treatment on the person's preference as there is no evidence that either mode of treatment (individual high-intensity psychological intervention or drug treatment) is better. [new 2011]

High-intensity psychological interventions
1.2.17If a person with GAD chooses a high-intensity psychological intervention, offer either CBT or applied relaxation. [new 2011]
1.2.18CBT for people with GAD should:

be based on the treatment manuals used in the clinical trials of CBT for GAD
be delivered by trained and competent practitioners
usually consist of 12–15 weekly sessions (fewer if the person recovers sooner; more if clinically required), each lasting 1 hour. [new 2011]

1.2.19Applied relaxation for people with GAD should:

be based on the treatment manuals used in the clinical trials of applied relaxation for GAD
be delivered by trained and competent practitioners
usually consist of 12–15 weekly sessions (fewer if the person recovers sooner; more if clinically required), each lasting 1 hour. [new 2011]

1.2.20Practitioners providing high-intensity psychological interventions for GAD should:

have regular supervision to monitor fidelity to the treatment model, using audio or video recording of treatment sessions if possible and if the person consents
use routine outcome measures and ensure that the person with GAD is involved in reviewing the efficacy of the treatment. [new 2011]

1.2.21Consider providing all interventions in the preferred language of the person with GAD if possible. [new 2011]

Ok, so how on earth are you supposed to work through all your issues and the 5 stages in 12-15 sessions? I don't think thats easy at all.

I never had the last couple of stages in mine as it never got me anywhere so it was left out.

It also says "more if clinically required" yet I was told 'thats all we do' like it was a strict framework. So, its more about "appearing" to be addressing peoples needs than actually being patient-centric.

I like that yours was a year and I think thats a better way but for us to do that overhere we have to go private or fight our way into the full psychological level with our GP's fighting to keep us away from them.

I wonder whether this is why people are a bit anti CBT?

I want to see more positive posts. I also really want to see full discussion of key topics aimed at getting to the roots of things and how to implement strategies to address problems but this is rare on here. Again, no one is steering the ship so unless we start doing this, no one else is. I tried to start a discussion about reform in the mental health service to see what peoples opinions are and so far no one is posting. Thats fine, but I was hoping we could set aside our own issues to talk about the bigger picture as you would on forums where admins are creating articles and asking for discussion of them.

Davit

16-05-15, 08:12

Step one, relaxation techniques 3 sessions say a week apart. This would be learning box breathing and muscle relaxation and Meditation etc, but since so much panic is attached to agoraphobia the emphasis would be on something that can be done in public with meditation yoga etc reserved for home. Step two, coping. This would start with distractions and stacking again because they are fast to learn then mindfulness. Mindfulness is going to continue in the next three steps but it would prepare you for the next step. How many sessions/weeks? More than three I would think. Step three, core beliefs and finding the root of the panic reaction to the trigger. This one will take the longest. If we put exposure here instead you have ran out of allotted time. If we leave it as is with core beliefs here there will barely be enough time to explain them. So we are out of time or on our own. Step four, Changing thought patterns. Since this works better with the knowledge of how the brain works and synapses, Amygdala, hippocampus, hypothalamus and memory along with neurotransmitters. Some information on emotions and attitude, this is going to be more than a few weeks too. And finally exposure as the fifth step to see how well you function and find any weak spots that need additional work. Core beliefs are going to need additional time if there is PTSD, OCD or HA. And here some mild exposure may be needed in the case of Germ OCD. But definitely not off the deep end exposure. I'm thinking six months to a year to get to an acceptable 80% recovered, There will be a number of steps within the steps if there is trauma involved. In the states unless your insurance covered it you would be looking at a minimum of 25 payments. In Canada it is free unless your therapist doesn't do it. There would likely be some drug information in the introduction session too, so the weeks would add up. 6 to 8 wouldn't get you very far.

So it doesn't look like there is much hope. Which is a shame since a year is nothing compared to how long people have put up with it.

---------- Post added at 00:12 ---------- Previous post was at 00:09 ----------

So shall we create articles and ask for discussion. It might get heated and I'm okay with that.

MyNameIsTerry

16-05-15, 09:40

Mine went more like:

1-3 sessions therapist asking about triggers, explaining about how thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc work. Setting homework for OCD compulsions to show therapist what they are, when, frequency, duration, number of repetitions, etc.
4-9 working on behavioural experiments, determining healthy activities and ranking based on difficulty, determing barriers & how to overcome them (Behavioural Activation with some exposure)
10-12 just working through the BA stuff. This is where it got very stuck for me.

After that there were a few follow ups to see how I was doing however it was explained that these were for monitoring purposes only and no further therapy would be offered. So, these were for them, not me...I think the smiley for this should be :WTF:

---------- Post added at 09:40 ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 ----------

I'm fine with heated, I've had plenty of runs in on here.

The question is how to go about it. Ideally you would want articles writing and displaying as a page and then a discussion thread set up to talk about them. Thats how it used to be done on one of the larger money saving forums I was on before here. I doubt thats possible on here though.

The other problem is where do you put them and how do you drive people towards them? Anything you put on the HA board will be on page 2 the next day and anything you put in the lesser frequented boards will be avoided by many.

Any ideas?

Sam123

16-05-15, 10:23

Yes that is a dilemma, i know the tags in the thread help. Some people search by words whether it be members or guests. So you can add your own tags to the post at the bottom before submitting e.g panic attacks, therapy, cure, so on and so forth.

Just fill it with every tag until you hit the maximum :roflmao:

Davit

16-05-15, 15:52

Lots of bumping too.

Sam123

16-05-15, 16:01

I will bump it a lot :roflmao:

The Panic section is much quieter and moves slower than the Health Anxiety. There's always Top Tips or Therapy. A good title and even explanatory images(where possible). Lot's of tags added and we will rate it 5
:yesyes:

Davit

16-05-15, 16:59

Well I'm willing to do it. What are we going to call this difficult child?

Nat2015

16-05-15, 18:29

Sam123

16-05-15, 18:54

Yes I like your post :yesyes:

It's also helped that I have never believed the panic I experienced was inherent in my personality etc, but i know that it was all learned (albeit unintentionally).

This was a big thing for me in that i did believe it was my personality, The 'It's just who i am' thought really held me back, along with 'I'm a negative thinker' 'I'm just a worrier' thoughts.

I know I learnt to be like this so there is nothing stopping me from relearning to think and react differently as long as i put the necessary work in.

I couldn't have put it better myself, and it does take work, a lot of motivation and determination to get better. I never knew or even heard of core beliefs before joining this forum a month ago. I had little understanding of the way memory works, it seems i spent all of my time focusing on my panic and anxiety symptoms instead of the cause.

---------- Post added at 18:54 ---------- Previous post was at 18:52 ----------

Well I'm willing to do it. What are we going to call this difficult child?
__________________
"CBT is the hardest simple thing you will ever do"
Quote by Davit

Oh i don't know i'll leave that for you and Terry. What ever it is, why not fill it with

***Aster-ix to catch peoples attention, after all it is important***

MyNameIsTerry

17-05-15, 08:37

Oh i don't know i'll leave that for you and Terry. What ever it is, why not fill it with

***Aster-ix to catch peoples attention, after all it is important***

I'm sure we can get Asterix in somewhere...:D

https://lh4.ggpht.com/PynMqgrsy2infLb3dNX1qF-vKABgtsTLJwNxkU6mbHVJ94t66iLAimIK5My_UBUD7OA=h900

Apparentely, he has Gaul. :D

Sam123

17-05-15, 08:42

:roflmao: Stop making me laugh in the morning when i'm supposed to be moody

:emot-sleepyhead:

MyNameIsTerry

17-05-15, 08:47

I'm happy to bump up these type of threads too :winks:

I am seeing a private therapist and have done for a while now. One of the first things he explained to me in the early days, was that my focus was all on the panic/symptoms etc. I have had to completely re-change my focus onto other things so I don't even bother looking at most of the threads on here. I only use the remedy/therapy/success section and even then I'm selective in what I read. My focus now is primarily on goals and tasks both short term and long term.

I think its partly cultural and medical in that most people (myself included before I educated myself) think that medication is going to solve everything. I now view medication as simply another form of suppression. At best meds can take the edge off things but the real cure is to retrain the brain and for that there is only exposure and changes of thought processes, plus mindfulness/meditation etc.

It's also helped that I have never believed the panic I experienced was inherent in my personality etc, but i know that it was all learned (albeit unintentionally). This has been key for me in enabling me to be motivated towards recovery. I know I learnt to be like this so there is nothing stopping me from relearning to think and react differently as long as i put the necessary work in.

I'm expecting to be 80% on the way to being cured by the end of the year with a complete cure by next year sometime. I'm looking forward to living a free life again soon :yesyes:

I agree with you, Nat. At first its all scary and you don't know whats going on. I remember when my OCD came I had no clue and thought I was losing my mind despite having GAD for 4-5 years before that. By learning about it, it helped just a little so I knew what it was all about.

I too don't believe we were born this way or are destined to remain this way. Neuroplasticity both explains how we learnt this behaviour and how we can change it back. I know from reading about epigenetics that a parent can potentially pass on a gene that includes anxiety, but only when they are suffering anxiety themselves as their gene recorrects. It further explained that a dormant gene has to be activated via the methylation process and that we can also turn it off again in the same way. I reckon there is something in this and considering a lot of cancer research is in epigenetics (including now developing new drugs to use methylation to reverse the gene in question back to its original state) we can have some confidence in the fact mental health is being pulled along off the back of it. There is a study in children with anxiety and how methylation worsened or improved symptoms to prove it worked. Its interested stuff.

What causes methylation leading to anxiety issues being activated in a gene? All the usual, bad diet, deficiencies, lack of exericse, too much stress, etc. Thats as far as I have read so far anyway. This might explain how we can cure ourselves but end up with a later anxiety disorder by creating the environment for it to flourish, thus starting to use the old pathways from a previous disorder or creating new ones.

More reading is needed but it sounds like there is something in there along with the proven science behind neuroplasticity.

I see people saying you can't recover and whilst I respect their opinion, I believe its only a question of whether YOU will. To discount the fact that there are many prople who have recovered is simply demonstrating negative thought patterns detailed in Cognitive Distortions (there is one for discounting evidence as well as the maximisation/minimisation one).

I wasn't born like this. I can see some OCD behaviour here & there in my childhood and a very brief spell of anxiety over 3 weeks in my teens, but thats it. My GAD only started in my thirties. So, if I was born this way, why did I work in stressful positions, face street violence in my area, deal with relatinship breakups, etc and it not affect me at all? Its completely learnt based on a prolonged decline in environment, social life, physical health and work overload in my case.

Davit

17-05-15, 18:10

Your back to core beliefs which some people still have not heard of. It is like looking under the hood of your car and discovering a motor makes the thing work. You can drive it till it quits and never need to know. But if it doesn't run, that is the first place to look.

Davit

12-06-15, 02:51

I have netflix now. I also dropped telus mobility and went with xplorenet. 8 times the data flow for a couple dollars more. So if I'm not here you know where I am. There really is nothing for me here, games are boring now. I don't have HA or OCD. DR/DP was never that bad and is gone. Never had depression and the panic and anxiety that were strong are gone. Not leaving, just spending less time.

MyNameIsTerry

12-06-15, 06:03

I'm sure people will benefit from the time you are on here, Davit. Its pretty quiet in the night overhere and not too many people from other countries on.

More discussions are needed I guess as opposed to one off issue threads. On forums I've been on before a big discussion could easily be struck up but it seems less people want to engage in them on here.

Davit

12-06-15, 08:11

Going to start a hobby thread.

MyNameIsTerry

12-06-15, 08:38

Good choice, I think a lot of people will be interesting in that. There are plenty of threads around for peoples various interests so I expect, just like the gardening that prompted some discussion, that people will join in on this one.

pulisa

29-06-15, 19:56

It is a fact indisputable that positive thought helps, what is not known is how bad negative thought can be.

I was asked how people were interfering with what I'm trying to do. First off all survival skills are negative therefore in your mind negatives have priority unless rejected. it has been said it takes ten positive thoughts to reject one negative. Stands to reason then you would latch onto a negative thought or idea. Stands to reason the negative person is more acceptable. If ten people say there is a cure and two say there is not who are you going to believe, the positive person with proof or the negative person with just comments. Every time some one says it didn't work for me but doesn't add it works for other they balance out ten people saying it does. People come here because nothing works and get met by a whole bunch of people saying, I get that too, but no solution or it didn't work for me, but no alternative. If I give a solution, some one will say it doesn't work for everyone. It does work for everyone or would if given a chance. But lately some one always jumps on my posts saying it is only my opinion or I should keep my opinion to myself. It isn't my damn opinion, it is facts backed up by proof. When I say something doesn't work I add why it doesn't yet people think they should be able to stand on their soap box and dispute me without any back up other than their opinion. That is interfering and frankly i'm getting tired of it. As my Mother would say, if you don't have anything good to say then keep your mouth shut.
Sorry about the rant, if you have something in common with a sufferer please post it, if you have a solution post that too, it is all support. And this is about support, not making people feel worse.

Could this be posted in the thread where the question was asked please, Davit?

Davit

29-06-15, 21:56

No. I said I would not post there anymore it is out of context. She wanted to know if there is a cure and as far as I'm concerned there is. It should have stopped there. I may stick to mine so no one gets anxiety from the conversations that follow me. I won't leave, I've made too many promises. I might move to PM though. Today I'd rather feed mosquitoes than argue my point. And my point is simple CBT. Negative is addictive and damaging, positive is not. Positive is too short lived to become addictive. Simple survival.

Going to have lunch and go pick strawberries. Everything I say will be gone in a day or two. All the information in the panic forum will be gone in a couple weeks. When the last person I'm helping doesn't need me I will be gone too.

Davit

30-06-15, 09:10

Pulisa

I never thought I was, I do think the information I bring is right, and it is not my information or my impression but it is my point borrowed to share. This is off the internet and backed up. It isn't coming from my imagination. But will you ever believe that. Probably not. The saying, a prophet is never accepted in his home land makes me smile. Who knows all sides of anxiety better than one cured of it. But my favourite saying is you can never trust the dog that bites the hand that feeds it.

I said I won't use that thread for other than it was meant and I won't, the original question was answered. It is not my thread. This one is, or was.

Davit

30-06-15, 17:42

My Dad was in the RCAF. We have relatives over there. His Granny Perry got bombed out. He got shot down a number of times. I have pictures of him with crew and three different Bombers. He mentioned others. He spoke highly of the country people. They really appreciated the sacrifice the colonies were making. But to the leaders of the RAF that made the decisions the Canadians were just so much Cannon fodder to throw in the way of the Germans. I have some good friends in the UK. But once in a while I come across people who still think they rule the world, even here. We have Brits who came here to farm. We have NZ who raise sheep. We all get along. We are not a country of eskimos and backwoods bush bunnies. Canada has contributed a lot to the world. We have the best medical and we have short or no waiting lists. Our cities send information all over the world. We are not stupid people. Some of the trees I cut down are in English houses.
We should be able to get along. But not if you reject everything that doesn't suit you. There is no advancement there. Why should I give a damn, the same reason my Dad was in the bombers, I have friends and relatives there.
I'm not leaving just because some stuck in the mud "old boy" wants me to.

Davit

30-06-15, 18:01

Why are they not PM ing me. I have 130 messages in my file right now, I have emptied it twice, No one is complaining but you. You are bashing me and I know you are trying to get NMP to evict me and erase my posts. Well they can but if they erase the information posts then this site is not worth being on anymore. After you stir up all this shit are you going to crawl back in your hole again and leave us wondering what went wrong. I've never seen such a case of persistent anger disorder. If I leave you will just find someone else to pick on. So pick on me, I at least can handle it. I bet I could tell you exactly who is on your side. And they too have contributed little more than you.

---------- Post added at 10:01 ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 ----------

My friends, I'm sorry. I'm stopping this right here, No more justification no more arguments. Ricardo can keep it going if he wants to.

One last comment on the subject. There is a thing called second hand anxiety where a person dumps their anxiety on others to get rid of it. A whole bunch of people end up walking on eggs and anxious so that one person can have some freedom. This is not acceptable and I will not be a part of it anymore.

Davit

03-07-15, 18:15

Good bye

Sara27

03-07-15, 18:23

noo are you leaving? :weep:

pulisa

03-07-15, 19:21

No one's grinding you down, Davit. If posts have been deleted then so be it. It's just a forum-an online facility. We need to accept whatever has been decided. It's not the end of the world.

ricardo

03-07-15, 20:51

I think an Agony Aunt section would be a really good idea and I know just the person to run it :winks:

ricardo

03-07-15, 21:18

I think having a good sense of humour is very beneficial in beating anxiety in some situations, like right now lol.

nomorepanic

03-07-15, 21:21

I give up :wall:

pulisa

03-07-15, 21:30

I honestly do think a sense of humour is essential here. I misunderstood your farewell signature, Davit so mea culpa. Latin is not my best language.

Davit

03-07-15, 21:37

Please don't nicola, it is a joke. We can joke a bit I hope.

MyNameIsTerry

03-07-15, 22:17

I give up :wall:

Seconded

ricardo

04-07-15, 07:37

Why on my thread, why not the humour forum. At least I know i'm being read.

---------- Post added at 17:10 ---------- Previous post was at 16:15 ----------

Okay, I talk to much on forums. If you have a question for me use PM. BY by forums for now.

Well actually to some this is a humour forum, no offence meant lol :)

pulisa

06-07-15, 07:56

I believe that there are a variety of very good cook books on the market and some excellent chefs. Everyone has the opportunity to select the best recipes that suit their lifestyles and sometimes we can even rustle up recipes for ourselves which are original yet don't necessarily follow set instructions. It doesn't really matter so long as the end product fits the bill and the budding chef stays calm and collected and benefits from the whole process.

My daughter really enjoys baking and it has helped her hugely as she has many mental hurdles to negotiate each and every day. I believe that baking is even now recognised as an official therapy- certainly within the Priory Hospital group here in the UK.

I also don't think it matters too much if the odd recipe goes wrong-you learn from your mistakes and in all likelihood things turn out better next time.

Davit

06-07-15, 08:33

I do bake, I even make real bagels, It is good therapy. My vent will be gone tomorrow with some others.

The mind has very set rules of how it works and what it can do. You can change the ingredients and volumes, but not far off what it is designed to use. If you ask your arm to do what it isn't supposed to do it breaks, why would your mind not, it is a lot more fragile.

Any way it doesn't matter, people have made their choice and I'm happy. I was getting too busy. More time to just chat, watch a movie, watch the world go no where.

pulisa

06-07-15, 08:42

I think it's ok to be a bit flexible too with recipes just to add a bit of variety but everyone has different ideas about these things. That's why there are such a lot of recipes to choose from and people can just make their own recipes up if they want and if they work.

MyNameIsTerry

06-07-15, 08:43

Just a long as Jamie Oliver doesn't rock up to my bedside if I'm ever in there! :D

pulisa

06-07-15, 08:55

I can see you more as a Nigella fan in view of your thoughts re Carol Vorderman?:winks:

MyNameIsTerry

06-07-15, 09:02

I can't even remember where I mentioned that one!...well yes, me & Harry Hill both like Nigella :yesyes:

pulisa

06-07-15, 09:11

I caught a glimpse of Rylan on a celebrity? masterchef show last week! Your fave!:winks:

MyNameIsTerry

06-07-15, 09:16

I know, and he got through! I watch that programme and he's wrecked it for me now!

At least he toned his teeth down first, with that and Greg's head...:D

pulisa

06-07-15, 09:46

Rylan is everywhere now. And to think it all started with his sobbing into Nicole Scherzinger's skirts...

MyNameIsTerry

06-07-15, 09:47

Worked for Louis Hamilton too, no wait he wasn't sobbing...:roflmao:

pulisa

06-07-15, 09:49

You are a one.....:D

pulisa

06-07-15, 10:04

The very thought:blush::blush:

MyNameIsTerry

06-07-15, 10:26

She's too demanding for me, she would eat me for breakfast! :D

Davit

06-07-15, 10:34

I am very happy in the wee hours of the morning. I have this stupid smile plastered on my face. I would dance if I could, I would sing if I could. It has been going on for days. I was free when I came here and I'm still free despite everything. God this feels good. Today as I drove to the store everything was so clear, every cloud, every mountain peak every tree was where it belonged and as it should be, peace was abound. Not a care, not a worry. I'm free, I can do what I want. I can shoot myself in the foot here in cyber land and it doesn't matter. I can stay or leave. Read my signature. Can't? it has two translations. It is going to be my motto, the other was a bit negative. May my enemies have peace, my friends don't need it they are going to make their own.

pulisa

06-07-15, 10:38

She's too demanding for me, she would eat me for breakfast! :D

Now Terry, you know all about my other "issues". I couldn't possibly change my bran flakes for human flesh. I'm not Hannibal Lecter(well, not quite yet:winks:)

MyNameIsTerry

06-07-15, 11:33

My self esteem just took another hit, people won't even eat me! :D

I can't see any rules in the t&c's about cannabalism so we should be ok :D

pulisa

06-07-15, 11:47

Don't think we're feeding anyone's anxiety on that one....just for a change:winks:

pulisa

06-07-15, 17:37

Stop dining off our banter!:D

Davit

06-07-15, 18:25

This is my opinion and my thread so read it and weep because every word is true. You people are on ***** *** extremely offensive - admin* and don't know it. Stress kills. The door is open and you are still trying to get out the window.

I am the only one on this site who is totally 100% cured. And I sure as the hell did not get it crying in my beer. The last stage of the program I used is exposure to see if all you have learned works. Well you certainly gave me exposure. Everyone who was getting better you drove away. Driving them off to private message wasn't good enough was it. You had to create enough stress that they would leave. Look around you. WHO LEFT. newme went back to her site, a site using the same principles I shared with you. panicgurl who is well on her way to being cured. Sam who is also well on her way. Sam who brought you interesting threads everyone could enjoy.They were going to stay and help, but you don't want help. What are you doing here anyway? You don't play the games. Why would you, they take skill. There is absolutely no one here that can take my score in Bug. It takes cognitive skill not just fast fingers. You actually have to think for that one. You can't can you. Your minds are locked in one mode and rotting there. You can't change and your scared to change. Read the threads of the rest of the people who are gone. Two things sent them away. Getting away from the negative crap here and getting away from the negative crap. Quite a few people were starting to use positive thought. You can do that at home, you don't need to be here.

If any of them are reading and want my Email, drop me a PM.

If anyone wants to try a real CBT program, go to ******** *removed as advertising - admin.* Be warned, it is Canadian. The site isn't as pretty and there are no games but there is support. And no prejudice. You will be welcomed and people don't back bite.

Oh and if you think this is a leaving speech you are wrong. PM is above the slime, I am going to stay and watch you *too offensive to remain - admin*. You are well on your way.

So that was for the old boys network. PM is still open to anyone with any questions. *no longer open* - admin

This is a lot milder than what I wanted to say. I just really wanted to say what truly ********offensive- admin* people some of you are. And that if you aren't cured after ten years you never will be. *alarmist and unproven - admin* There is no cure for ******* offensive - admin* but you could quit spreading it.