View Full Version : Core beliefs
Lesson 2 in CBT 101 lol.
Core beliefs, who knows what they really are? Notice I didn't say negative core beliefs. Core beliefs can be negative or positive but if they have possibilities they are core thoughts. Core thoughts are things you think are possible but you are not positive about yet you use them anyway because you have no answer. They come from semantic (associated) memory if they are things or procedural memory if they are actions. You will use them as long as they work and over time they change to core beliefs or get discarded as wrong. Core beliefs are definite because you believe them yet they can still be wrong. The mind doesn't care because it works on appropriate and core beliefs are appropriate, even if they are wrong. Core beliefs can not be discarded. Often even if you know they are wrong.
Where do they come from? Well the first ones come from observations. We are born with practically empty brains, all the neurons are there and joined together but the only functioning part is the part we have no control of. The first nine days there is very little activity and we store nothing. After that everything is fair game. Everything is believable because we have nothing to compare it to to challenge it. Everything is an instant core belief. One of the first is that crying either gets attention or it doesn't. So the first core beliefs are acquired, they are not ours and don't become ours till we have enough information to make decisions. By this time any damage done is permanent. Damage is easy to do. You might think saying "your a fat little baby" is cute but baby doesn't know if this is true or not so since it came from some one you believe, it becomes true. It skips core thoughts because it comes from a reliable source. Next cores come from peers along with a lot of core thoughts from observations. the difference is of course belief.
My first negative core belief came at three and lasted till I was fifty.
Core beliefs I built or were installed were that I was not loveable, My mother gave me that one. That I was not wanted my brother gave to me and my family reinforced it. And there are lots more. Many contributing to my anxiety. Few changed.
Sunflower2
04-05-15, 15:48
http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/docs/SE_Module%208_July%2005.pdf
I used this workbook on core beliefs when having cbt with a psychologist through the NHS. Very useful and helped me a LOT!
Kimberly
Did it surprise you what your core beliefs were or did you have a pretty good idea what they were.
---------- Post added at 09:33 ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 ----------
This is good, but how do I get the other modules leading up to it. Thank you for posting this and I hope others will read it since it is pdf and printable.
Sunflower2
04-05-15, 17:39
For me, I saw myself as weak because of how anxiety has driven my life. I've always strived to be a strong resilient person, so seeing myself as weak really made it hard to work on anything. So everytime I gave into anxiety and avoided something, it would build on my negative core belief of being weak. I was also quite surprised as I didn't realise I thought so badly of myself! Now, I'm back to thinking im a strong capable person because I look at what I achieve DESPITE the anxiety. Also, I've accepted that anxiety does not equal weakness!
---------- Post added at 17:39 ---------- Previous post was at 17:38 ----------
http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/resources/consumers.cfm
Here is the website, it's got a lot of good resources!
You have got anxiety pegged down exactly. It is more than most people think and I don't think they realize just how much affect core beliefs have on them.
---------- Post added at 09:54 ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 ----------
This is good, I recommend people look for their disorder on the list and read it.
I struggle with this. I've developed negative core beliefs through bad experiences and trauma, which i am aware of. My core beliefs don't seem to be about me per-say. For example there is no 'I am weak' or 'I am incompetent' Just a general negative core belief that something bad is going to happen. Something will go wrong, in every aspect of my life.
I've always struggled to enjoy good times happy times in my life because i never feel comfortable that it will last, i never allow myself to fully enjoy and be happy because i have a belief that something bad will happen. This applies to everything from relationships, to days out, holidays, work and health. I don't really understand it.
I think it's from my mum.
How do i know what my negative core beliefs are if they were formed from being a young child how do i know why and when they became core beliefs. I need help on this subject?
Sam there is a diagram in my booklet that shows the path of thought. In that path is a survival check that says, is this something I should be concerned about. Normally it says no this is not a worry and discards it because being happy is not a concern. But, say if as a child (as happened to me) you were doing a normal child thing and something or someone gave you the impression it was wrong, Usually it is something like "stop that, it is bothering me" harmless right because as an adult you know it meant nothing. but in the very young with nothing to compare it to it is a fact and recorded as a fact. Now add in something like some one saying oh she is just a child and the answer comes back "i don't care it is bothering me, then the fact got reinforced. This can happen in the best house hold unintentionally. Or every time I wanted to play with my brother he beat me up (literally) and said I couldn't play. Left me thinking I was not allowed to play. Improved situations usually change these cores, but school with its cliques can reinforce the thought that I am not supposed to be happy. Something goes wrong that shouldn't during a normal happy outing and that outing gets flagged as something not to do. It wouldn't if there was not a core pushing it that direction. But it alone could build a core if it was bad enough. Remember the "I'm not sure's" are core thoughts and easier to change. So back to the survival check, it says I think this is okay but i'm going to keep an eye on it. and it does, just enough to cause mild anxiety because there is that push pull between "I am having fun" and "why do I think this is wrong" The why, is the survival check trying o protect you.
From your mom. Cores are built from observation too, could your mom not enjoy life, was she always waiting for the hammer to fall?
Oh yes, she never wanted to do anything or for us to do anything because she always saw dangers. Like normal parents do but her worries were extreme i can see that now, she would constantly tell me about strangers, repeatedly warn me of the dangers and give me examples of what can happen. Any activity i wanted to do it was always 'Be careful, that's dangerous' when in fact it probably wasn't.
She found it hard to be truly happy and positive about much really and i would always over hear her fears and troubles. I think this definitely had a big affect.
My dad was the opposite. They separated when i was 10 and i went to live with him, which was great. Although he had to work shifts which meant i pretty much became fully independent by this stage, he is a perfectionist which would be quite hard sometimes, but still i enjoyed living with him and he did the best he could.
Thanks for the information, i have trouble following it sometimes i think it's probably just a mental overload.
The important thing is anything you know you can change.
MyNameIsTerry
05-05-15, 05:36
Here are some useful documents to understand, monitor, conduct experiements, modify or change and develop balanced new beliefs. This is the same website Kimberley posted but this is a different area which is more an index of tools. I always post from this website.
Information on Core Beliefs:
http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/docs/Info-What%20are%20Core%20Beliefs.pdf
Core Belief Magnets:
http://psychology.tools/core-belief-magnets.html
Belief Driven Formulation:
http://psychology.tools/belief-driven-formulation.html
Useful tools for monitoring & changing core beliefs.
ABC Belief Monitoring:
http://psychology.tools/abc-belief-monitoring.html
Positive Belief Record:
http://psychology.tools/positive-belief-record.html
Core Beliefs Worksheet:
http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/docs/WS-Core%20Beliefs%20Worksheet.pdf
Adjusting Negative Core Beliefs Worksheet:
http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/docs/WS-adjusting%20core%20beliefs.pdf
Information on changing or adjusting Core Beliefs:
http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/docs/Info-adjusting%20negative%20core%20beliefs.pdf
Full modules for Core Beliefs (explanation, adjusting, changing, developing balanced):
http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/docs/BB-8-Core%20Beliefs.pdf
http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/docs/SE_Module%208_July%2005
---------- Post added at 05:19 ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 ----------
I struggle with this. I've developed negative core beliefs through bad experiences and trauma, which i am aware of. My core beliefs don't seem to be about me per-say. For example there is no 'I am weak' or 'I am incompetent' Just a general negative core belief that something bad is going to happen. Something will go wrong, in every aspect of my life.
I've always struggled to enjoy good times happy times in my life because i never feel comfortable that it will last, i never allow myself to fully enjoy and be happy because i have a belief that something bad will happen. This applies to everything from relationships, to days out, holidays, work and health. I don't really understand it.
I think it's from my mum.
How do i know what my negative core beliefs are if they were formed from being a young child how do i know why and when they became core beliefs. I need help on this subject?
Hi Sam,
I've just posted some links that explain how to find your negative core beliefs.
You use Thought Records and look for specific themes and then drill down into them. Here is a Thought Record to get you started:
http://psychology.tools/cbt-thought-record.html
Since you have issues with HA, here is one specifically for that:
http://psychology.tools/health-anxiety-thought-record.html
You fill these out to cover negative thoughts and challenge them. When you get into Core Beliefs, you go back to these and look at how you are thinking to find patterns and drill down to find the root.
I've highlighted the ones that stick out to me.
Can you put those into TR's and work through them? Part of the TR's will allow for more explanation which should reveal some things to you and then you can drill down to find something of a Core Belief that they stem from.
---------- Post added at 05:22 ---------- Previous post was at 05:19 ----------
http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/docs/SE_Module%208_July%2005.pdf
I used this workbook on core beliefs when having cbt with a psychologist through the NHS. Very useful and helped me a LOT!
I know my therapist gave me worksheets which I recently spotted on this website. Its very good but it does surprise me that they aren't NHS branded.
Maybe everyone is getting these from a central producer?
---------- Post added at 05:36 ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 ----------
The ones I tend to struggle with are those that are reinforced by correct facts.
For instance, I'm overweight as I've got a bit older, carried on eating like I did in my twenties, not been getting enough hard exercise, etc. So, now I view myself badly (maybe a touch of BDD in there?) because I'm embarrassed by it.
The trouble is, I am overweight so my core belief is right in that aspect. I can rationalise this e.g. it is normal due to how you have been living up to this point, you can change it, it doesn't define who you are, its irrelevent what others may think, etc. However, it doesn't seem to change it and the only true way to change it is to change the issue itself.
So, I can minimise my belief in the negatives but I can't remove a fact that is true.
There are also some situational cores attached to this e.g. you won't seem me outside without a coat on no matter how hot it is unless I am nowhere near anyone.
The root of the belief will be based on how I believe I should look as a man. I don't think of other men negatively if they look like me or much more overweight or thin because I'm non judgemental in that way.
This is where I come a bit undone on Core Beliefs.
kimberely2, Davit, and Terry. Thanks so much for sharing the info. It's helping me a lot:)
MyNameIsTerry
13-05-15, 11:28
I was reading the BBC Science Focus magazine for June in the supermarket a few days ago as they had an interesting article on free will vs. determinism. It was discussing how neuroscience is starting to win the argument for determinism and it made me think about core beliefs and how powerful they can be.
I'm having my own battle with a few of them at the moment and they are particularily strong ones. They keep me in negative ruts and routines that both cause depression whilst at the same time keep the anxiety going due to their ability as safety behaviours.
I wonder how much free will we really have? We can choose to change it though or choose to overrule it and do something else. I sometimes wonder whether doing the opposite of what it is telling you is a way to break them (with repetition of course) or whether randomness helps to break them up by rendering them obsolete?
Now imagine if you were bipolar, with some really wrong beliefs you have no control over.
MyNameIsTerry
14-05-15, 11:13
Yes, that would be tough when you are in the cycle.
I know one of the tools in CBT is a Vicious Flower which is used to find the root of thoughts. It may be used for core beliefs too as it is useful for those attached cores.
The idea being that you take away a petal at a time but this may make more sense for self analysis rather than change since its the root that needs resolving.
I can't see why you can't take a petal and create a sub flower from it to enable drilling down to deeper levels. It's probably not what they do in therapy but that's how you would do it in business analysis.
You can then create a Virtuous Flower to create a new thought process. This would also work well with core beliefs.
What do you think? I've never used one in therapy myself but others may benefit from it.
Sunflower2
14-05-15, 14:00
Davit, I have also had quite in depth cbt and gone over the cognitive restructuring. I can automatically challenge thoughts now and I can recognise when they are distorted. I understand exactly why I'm thinking like I am and know the answers. I no longer ask for reassurance because I know I have to manage those thoughts independently. Yet my anxiety hasn't decreased. My moods are still all over the place. I get so overwhelmed everything goes out the window. In these situations I feel so completely out of control. I'm not depressed any more for most of the time because cbt helped that, but I just can't seem to change the seemingly automatic racing thoughts that come every day. Even on things I'm no longer anxious over, they still come back and completely panic me some days. there isn't any major triggers to my anxiety either, I have a job I enjoy, a comfortable lifestyle and good prospects. What am I missing from cbt?
Kimberly
This is the worst possibility scenario so think it over before you decide it can't be. It is PTSD and as such will have a strong core belief protecting it. And as a survival core it will be negative and as a survival core it has priority. I had this core belief and it still affects me once in a while during low moods. Periods when I'm in a lot of pain and can't get done what I want to. There is nothing for it but coping skills till it passes
It is the "I don't deserve to be happy core belief". It is stronger than most because this one you build yourself, you might get reinforcement from others but for the most part it comes from your own thought. The only time you get rest from it is when you are very busy or, more important, when you are taking care of someone. (paying the price the core demands). You can do your job well because that is a job with a reason other than happy. You can care for people because that is a job too. As a Catholic I was brought up thinking only Jesus can take my sins away when I screw up. So changing this,"I don't deserve to be happy (normal even) core" was very hard. Core beliefs are built on perception so whether you did something or only think you did is the same. This is a root core with many others coming off it. It colours them negative so changing them does no good they come back very easily. Challenging them works but only for a short while.
Remember we are still just talking a possibility here. This may not be it.
This root core always comes from having perceived you did some wrong you can never change, unintentional or not. There is a closed door (perceived) against fixing the damage. This closed door allows the core to eat at you. It can cause futility which is not quite depression, more sadness. A state that can last all day. It only has to be a perceived wrong, not an actual one. In my case it started off as a minor core that I was not good enough. That just added negative colour when I built the I don't deserve to be happy core.
Part of this came from wanting to be like my brother yet not liking some of the cruel things he did. Transferred to me because I wanted to be like him (past tense, that is gone). But where I really built it was by being like my brother in how I treated my Dad. My Dad was a hard working gentle soul who got used a lot. Not just by us so we couldn't see that we were treating him badly. He still wanted the best for us. He is dead and I have guilt. I tried to make up for it before he died but couldn't. He got dementia and couldn't understand. I've been walking in his steps for many years and it has made me a better person but it can not change the core without closure which I can not get. If I had a stronger belief I could ask Jesus to do it for me. But the core stops me from doing that. The only resort left is accepting it is in the past and can't be changed.
So if you have this core belief you have to find the perceived wrong you did and change it for closure or if it can't be then you have to accept that.
Lets start here because this is worst case scenario, if it isn't this then we will have to look for something else because the mind works on appropriate so there is always a reason.
---------- Post added at 11:09 ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 ----------
Terry.
A form of Occams razor. Take away what isn't till all that is left is what is. That gets the root. Then change it and build on it for reinforcement. In affect building a new flower one petal at a time from the old petals so they can never be used again.
Sounds like cognitive restructuring.
When I said to change the root because it is the only important core I didn't mean to ignore those it created, but to recognize them and set them aside in the search. They are needed in the rebuilding of the flower. It is easiest to build a positive if there is a negative to build it against.
Is this what you meant?
Sunflower2
14-05-15, 19:22
Davit, the interesting thing about PTSD is that when my severe anxiety really took off was after my brothers fiancé was killed in a car accident, I witnessed my brother and family fall to pieces with grief and I couldn't feel any emotion. I shut down when I get too distressed and just get on with things. At the same time I also had just failed my degree which in itself has caused severe severe stress. I studied architecture and was working all day everyday for 6 months, just to fail. This is when my panic attacks began. (I did pass my degree in the end and all of this stress has gone, I'm now just left with a heap of anxiety)
But, before then I had already a very well established OCD and phobia of feeling sick. This I have had for a good 10 years. I have years worth of compulsions I need to break down but I can't work on this because of the severe anxiety and panic. I'll also add that the anxiety began before the car accident. That was just the climax of it. And this was 2 years ago now. Since then things got a lot worse this past year when I stopped eating properly.
So, I have like double the amount of anxiety any normal person should have. But working out the cause won't stop it from happening. I've talked and talked and no amount of therapy seems to have much impact on it other than controlling it slightly. I want to believe that cbt can cure you but I'm sceptical because of my long history of anxiety from when I was a small child.
Technically CBT can cure because what you are doing is changing the reaction to the trigger and leaving it in place because it no longer has the same affect. So all the trauma and PTSD can stay because they don't matter. All the childhood incidents you can't change can stay because you will look at them different. Totally different and as long as you hold the keys to their access and choose not to use the key for access to them they can sit there in memory and are harmless. Totally harmless, it is like they don't exist.
It is like taking an unwanted ugly gift you can not throw out and putting it at the back of the closet or on a shelf in the garage. It is still there just out of mind. You can do this with any thought but it is best done with the root. OCD causes you to go back and forth from one key to the other so working on the obsession with the negative key is a priority after you move the negative thought. Since this negative key is an attitude there is only one for every negative core it controls access to. And of course positive thought is the counter to the negative key.
A problem with OCD is trying to change the trigger that causes it, usually through avoidance. This is wrong, leave the trigger and change your thought about it. triggers are just facts and can not be changed.
What happens with core beliefs about a trigger is you build two and store them in memory. The unwanted negative one needs a negative thought and a negative attitude to access it. And only a tsp full of these to do it. The other core belief is positive and needs a positive thought and a positive attitude to access it but because for survivals sake negatives have priority you need many tsp's of positive to counter the negative and access the positive. (it starts at ten times as many) But with repetition the negative attitude fades and it takes less attention to thinking positive which has become habit now. A whole new feeling fills your body and mind. A very simple CBT process, but very hard to do because you will fight negative core beliefs all the way, shooting them down along the way and building hundreds of positive cores, most which you won't even realize you are doing. These are spinoffs from the positive root cores you build. This is why it is slow and seems hopeless at first but speeds up as it progresses in what is called a bell curve. CBT is the hardest simple thing you will ever do but more than that it is time consuming and few have the patience for it.
MyNameIsTerry
15-05-15, 06:35
Yes, thats what I meant.
You are supposed to tackle them one by one by peeling each petal away from what I have read but I don't know about that if its best to tackle the central one instead. Would chipping away like that work or maybe just get you closer to the central one so that it is easier to tackle?
---------- Post added at 06:35 ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 ----------
Davit,
I think you may find this clinical report interested on exposure in OCD. I posted it in a thread ages ago as it talks about the pifalls that therapists face and how to overcome them:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/files/attachments/72634/gillihanexrppitfals2012.pdf
I think you will find sections 6-7 of particular interest.
I would follow the petals to the centre because when you fix the root all the spin offs it created being related die also. There is an emptiness like a black hole when a core belief stops being used, a sadness, how can there not be, you are losing what has been a big part of you. It is hard not to look for it.
MyNameIsTerry
16-05-15, 04:37
I notice in the ERP clinical paper I attached that it discusses a similiar concept within exposure treatment. It mentions how therapists don't drill down to the root and then based exposure tasks on that to overall it all.
So, it makes sense to do it this way.
MyNameIsTerry
08-06-15, 07:43
Bump.
MyNameIsTerry
23-06-15, 04:43
I was thinking about this today and came up with a few questions.
Q1. Can a root core change to be an associated core?
Q2. Can a root core change to be an associated core but a fresh issue become the root core?
Q3. Can a root core change to be an associated core and one of the associated cores become the root core?
Q4. Can an associated core detach from one central core and become an associated core to a separate root core?
Wow.
A root core will already have associated cores it has spun off and they can change slightly because being associated they only have to be close. EG I'm useless. Spinoff. I'm stupid because I can't do anything (mommy told me) Spin off, Mommy is right. Spin off I can't lead, I have to follow. Hubby is always right. Spin off everyone but me is right. Knowing only the final spin off how do you find the root core. Each spin off could have more spin offs. So you have an option, don't use it. If it is negative it will need a negative thought to use it. Negative thought >>>> key to>>>>> negative pathway>>>>> negative stored thoughts. Hypothalamus can use this if told to. Positive thought>>>> key to >>>> positive path>>>> positive stored thoughts, oops, there are none box is empty, they all got replaced with negative thoughts with the anxiety disorder. Need to build some positive thoughts to use (Positive cores) In truth they are still in the box but the negative thoughts keep pulling you on to the other path. You need a positive attitude to keep you on that path. The least doubt (easy to do) and you skip over to the other path. So even if you challenge the negative core prove it wrong and use that proof to build a positive core doubt, false observation or brow beating can make you use the negative one because it is still in memory. Repetition will have made that path twice as thick and twice as fast. You have a chore (mostly repetition) to change that so the positive has the thicker faster path.
I like to use weddings as associated. I'm losing my baby. Negative core. But i'm happy because she is. positive core. Her husband is a jerk. Either core, he might be. All associated, tied in with one event. Here is where mood effects which core is used.
Anything can become a core and any core can be replaced. (buried actually by repetition)
2,3 and 4 yes. Like neurons that are tied together all associated cores are tied together.
Lock away a root core and you lock away it's associates too, but open again to the other root they are associated with. Lock those roots away and you get a dead spot, a black hole sucking up the thoughts they used. You will quickly fill it with positive cores, usually the opposite to the ones you locked away. Positive thought and positive attitude to use them does this automatic. Doubt interferes.
MyNameIsTerry
23-06-15, 06:13
Thanks for explaining that.
So, these cores, not considering the key to open them, and all basically neurons linked by synapses. The root core would have synapses coming off it to each of its associated cores. So, does this mean that because these could be associated to multiple root cores, there is potentially associated cores with more than one synapse attached and it depends which synapse if bring used in terms of which root core it is being used witb at that time?
So, does this also mean that it is possible to have an even more complicated structure where a root core is actually an associated core of another root core (because it is linked to the other root core by a synapse)? What makes that the associated though when they are technically both primaries - is it because one of them is the original one and the other root core became attached later hence it has that secondary status but only when triggering its root core but when it itself is triggered it works solely with its own associated cores?
I wondered about this because I saw the Vicious Flower as a simple structure being applied to a far more complex concept - the brain! In business analysis we wouldn't have such a basic model in many cases as root causes tend to have various levels or flow charting can be much more complex than a standard model dependent on the subject being studied. So, in business analysis, if we used VF's we would have a deeper model with layers like I am asking about above.
So now you are getting into my thoughts on Gad. When a trigger does not have an answer in Episodic memory hypothalamus uses associated memory to find an answer. The rule or core it finds may drag along the associated cores with it since Hypothalamus is guessing. It has to try to fit it to see how close it is and if it works it gets moved to Episodic memory for future use, Worry increases the load on hypothalamus to try to find an answer. I think some of these associated thoughts open triggers that cause GAD yet seem to come out of the blue. I suppose in this case they do since they just showed up unrelated to the surrounding experience. Worry can come up with some weird answers (HA) and if they could be possibilities then they get moved to Episodic memory and stay there till proven wrong. Which if you didn't have HA would be easy. But if you have a core fearing death it will be used. In theory if these thoughts are in the negative memory positive thought will not be able to use them. A negative attitude makes you think worst case scenario. Who does not know someone who died of heart disease, stroke or Cancer. All memories are open to use. They only have one condition. Positive opens positive and negative opens negative. Then along comes Amygdala doing its check for danger with its own memory of past experiences it uses to make decisions. If anxiety or panic is it's answer then that is what you get. Unless you an override it with positive thought. The deck though is stacked agains this in an anxiety disorder. So thinking and staying positive is hard to do with core beliefs putting riders on every positive thought. We saw this in another post today. Negative thought can condition you to see an article in a way it was not meant to be. Out of context. You can learn 1+1= 2 in a day, no negative side and no riders to put on that simple fact. Not so with core beliefs. They take time. First you have to get rid of the riders.
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I'm sure root cores are sometimes subordinate to other roots depending on what core belief fits the thought best. Some roots never get used if a secondary spin off can fit the bill. This lack of use makes them harder to find.
Rennie1989
23-06-15, 14:15
I think it depends what psychology you read as to what your core beliefs are. There's Eric Berne's script for one. But if I were to round them all up into one the idea of core beliefs means how you view yourself and the world around you.
I know that some of my core beliefs are negative, I feel that I am worthless around people, which explains the pathetic social life and adds to the depression, and that I must be perfect. On the other hand I have positive core beliefs in which we should respect everybody and treat others as we want to be treated, we should give more to our society and world than we take from it and you should always trust your hardest (instead of being perfect).
You could take this away and analysis depressive and anxious disorders as coming from negative and destructive core beliefs, but I think everybody is guilty of having negative beliefs.
Negative core beliefs are okay for the most part if you know you have them and what they are. It is when you don't and they are still directing your life. (as in some PTSD)
Sam you are so funny. I'm going to pee myself.
MyNameIsTerry
21-07-15, 10:52
A useful way to tackle a problem with a belief is by using a "Vicious Flower". This allows you to look at the belief and your behaviours towards it in terms of prevention of it coming true or to protect yourself from your belived the consequences of your belief i.e. the maintenance cycles.
Here is a good example:
http://psychology.tools/vicious-flower-formulation.html
You can take it forward by creating a "Virtuous Flower" which seeks to counter it as seen here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2QvoM5tBoN8C&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=vicious+flower&source=bl&ots=V2ebfnmzdu&sig=QTcIJlyEWzWBaUC5w5TIySO-z1k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CGUQ6AEwDWoVChMIzbaJ__frxgIVyDsUCh34aQ6L#v=on epage&q=vicious%20flower&f=false
https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1606238698
(See pages 78-81)
Do you notice the strong use of acceptance in the Virtuous Flower? Self directed compassion can also be seen.
Richard1960
21-07-15, 12:25
Is it me terry the example you have given Vicious flower is very good and looks like the vicious circle i did when doing my CBT therapy and it worked very well on my psychology,i still go back to it occasionally.
mezzaninedoor
21-07-15, 17:46
Richard1960
It is similar, I created a vicious circle when doing CBT, it's in my little notebook
twas based on
Situation -> Belieifs -> Feelings ( Phys/Emo ) -> Behaviour -> Situations
It drove me understanding that my negative impression of myself was driving out a lot of negative situations and anxiety, it doesn't really improve things for me as I struggle still to break the negative
Maybe a virtuous circle/cycle would help, Ive not seen that in CBT i've done thx
Richard1960
21-07-15, 18:33
Richard1960
It is similar, I created a vicious circle when doing CBT, it's in my little notebook
twas based on
Situation -> Belieifs -> Feelings ( Phys/Emo ) -> Behaviour -> Situations
It drove me understanding that my negative impression of myself was driving out a lot of negative situations and anxiety, it doesn't really improve things for me as I struggle still to break the negative
Maybe a virtuous circle/cycle would help, Ive not seen that in CBT i've done thx
Hi mezzaninedoor.
Just found my booklets it shows in mine as did yours i suspect all the negative things in the circle and at the end tells you how to stop the circle, by changed thinking patterns.
But as you say i have never seen a Virtuous circle /cycle in CBT the nearest is the one in my booklet.
It did not improve things for me much at the start but with all the counselling i have then it all fell into place and i had to work on some reverse psychology and go back over the many things that were making me feel negative that was scary.
Also it all did not make sense until my citalopram had kicked in and helped me feel less depressed.
My course was the one mind do by Dr Chris Williams it comes with 9 booklets and was an online course i can refer back to.
mezzaninedoor
21-07-15, 18:42
My CBT was face 2 face without any booklets, I was given homework each week, things like the vicious circle and a lot of list based exercises
It was to a degree backed up with my using Mindgym an australian student CBT web site
I did then buy physically and for kindle my own books regards CBT so that I could refer back and I've been re-doing my CBT during this episode I'm experiencing
Richard1960
21-07-15, 18:52
My CBT was face 2 face without any booklets, I was given homework each week, things like the vicious circle and a lot of list based exercises
It was to a degree backed up with my using Mindgym an australian student CBT web site
I did then buy physically and for kindle my own books regards CBT so that I could refer back and I've been re-doing my CBT during this episode I'm experiencing
Yes i was given the homework too i used to do the course with the booklets online one a week.
And then go back to my mentor at mind to go back through what i had learn and re-cap.
But the books were handy as it means its quite handy to have them just to look at some of the stuff.
But i am finding as i go on and my confidence is quite high i need them less and less.It is very good to go back over them when having any problems.:)
MyNameIsTerry
22-07-15, 06:23
Is it me terry the example you have given Vicious flower is very good and looks like the vicious circle i did when doing my CBT therapy and it worked very well on my psychology,i still go back to it occasionally.
If you mean ones like these, then they are categorised in the beliefs section on the webiste I use to post tools from:
http://psychology.tools/cross-sectional-formulation.html
http://psychology.tools/belief-driven-formulation.html
http://psychology.tools/longitudinal-formulation-2.html
They are similiar but combined it with the Virtuous Flower adds a different dimension since you are not only trying to understand your thoughts/beliefs/feelings, etc but planning against them.
Some include a bit of this too form that section, such as:
http://psychology.tools/friendly-formulation.html
http://psychology.tools/longitudinal-formulation-1.html
The website I take these from covers more than just CBT so some tools can be unfamiliar. I never had the Vicious Flower in my CBT but I have seen one member on here ask about it once from her's.
---------- Post added at 06:23 ---------- Previous post was at 06:18 ----------
Richard1960
It is similar, I created a vicious circle when doing CBT, it's in my little notebook
twas based on
Situation -> Belieifs -> Feelings ( Phys/Emo ) -> Behaviour -> Situations
It drove me understanding that my negative impression of myself was driving out a lot of negative situations and anxiety, it doesn't really improve things for me as I struggle still to break the negative
Maybe a virtuous circle/cycle would help, Ive not seen that in CBT i've done thx
Have you been shown Cognitive Distortions? That might be great help to you in understanding your negative thinking styles. The thread "Words" by Davit would be worth a look too because you want to fill your worksheets with positive language otherwise you compromise the full power of them without realising.
A flower may help and I would also suggest looking at the links for core beliefs booklets that Kimberley and I posted earlier which take you through the process of identifying, creating new ones or modifying existing ones.
I had a few weeks of homework, a few basic worksheets handed out and some booklets that were given to me in self help by the same service before they transferred me for CBT. It was all very basic stuff though and barely any tools in. I thought I had CBT and when I started with a local charity it opened my eyes and the rest was internet from there. I think my therapist was trying some ERP and Behavioural Activation as very little was explained to me about this cognitive side beyond the cycle and some whiteboard work.
MyNameIsTerry
03-08-15, 05:26
One of my core belief issues that I have been trying to drill down into surrounds my fatigue. However, whilst there is physical tiredness, which I believe could be due to my unhealthy sleep routine and how that is impacting on my neurotransmitters and the SNRI I take, I can sense something deeper that is a mixture of feelings & thoughts and maybe even physical sensations.
When I spent time trying to notice this in more detail I found that it was beliefs about lack of motivation, lack of future, whats the point it's all the same anyway, etc. The feelings I have with these are of some form of discomfort in my mind whereby I feel a mixture of being under pressure to do & not to do anything (ambivalence) but also a control issue. This control issue links back to avoiding all possible stimili that came about as a result of my GAD. I hadn't noticed it to this level before because because my anxiety, it was much more subtle yet still affecting my life.
Physical feelings are a mixture of head and diagphram. My head feels like something is trying to stretch in two directions and my diagphram tenses up.
I need to do more work on this but I have managed to track it back to a specific point in my past. I was always a hard working student in school and at sixth form college but towards the end of my first year I contracted pneumonia. This put me in hospital for a week after 2 trips to A&E in an ambulance (the first the doctor missed a large shadow on the xray and discharged me). I spent about another 3 weeks recovering from this as it really affecting my asthma too which wasn't the best back then. I was about to return to college when I suddenly felt like I had no energy at all and my eyes were bloodshot. I ended up off for a further 4 weeks which turned out to be a low count of platelets in my blood. I thought I had glandular fever from knowing people at college that had had that.
After this it was very hard to catch up. But something in me seemed to change. I had started drinking before this in the city centre as we all did, but I now started to have thoughts of not really caring anymore. This continued and my college work suffered for it.
Then I started work and this seemed to no longer be there. For quite some years I had drive and a very active social life. I've never been good with relationships with women, I just didn't put as much into that as some guys do and I don't know; it happens or it doesn't.
As I got more into my stride at my last company I started to to become quite motivated and much more self confident. I still had some lagging issues around motivation for certain things like exercise but once I got started I seemed to be ok, it was more keeping the routine going around my work & social life that was a problem.
I don't think this hit me particularily hard until coming up to my relapse. I returned to work and threw myself into it for a couple of years. This was ultimately negative on me but the work culture was like this; everything going wrong, fixes that needed doing now, projects already behind that need advancing, etc. I loved it at that point because I had always loved the stress of work from my early days in call centres. However, in the 12 months leading up to my relapse the cracks were showing around anxiety and I was suffering with the influence of these old core belief issues. The last 6 months of this it had intensified and I became very sick of my work, lack of direction in life and why everything seemed pointless.
I had not had any therapy and relied solely on my GP up to this point, a very bad thing with anxiety disorders! So, I wasn't understanding that I was edging closer & closer to a more powerful relapse.
This relapse did further damage by reinforcing these old beliefs over a period of time and I now need to reprogramme how I see things to tackle it or it will re-emerge throughout my future. But by spending time trying to understand how I was feeling and learning about core beliefs, I found this one going back a good 21 years now.
MyNameIsTerry
09-08-15, 05:04
Another core belief issue I have had to understand in order to start working on is connected to a fear of trying supplements, foods, new things, etc. It's not an OCD thing as it was born out of my GAD after my first breakdown or most likely originated leading up to it.
A very clear event I had prior to taking a serious dive in mental health where my anxiety greatly increased was when I had been off work for a few months. I was still training, mostly bodyweight work. I was also taking some sports supplements, some which were more advanced. I decided to supplement with a new one on top of this and it was for advanced trainers only. It was also a supplement with a similiar, but more powerful, method of action to ones I was already on. Up to now my anxiety had not been an issue with these supplements and some of them were stimulating. So, at this point my anxiety was geared quite heavily towards my work situation and not affecting as much of my daily life if I could do any of this.
I took this new supplement at the same time as all the others are started rowing. Within a very short time I experienced an adrenaline rush, not a panic attack, they feel very different. I had to sit it out for a time with my heart pounding and worrying about the impact on my asthma. I had panic attacks at work, they were nothing like this. Aside from the worry about the feelings, I was filled with energy, very nervous energy and could have ran & ran.
This was where I developed an issue with supplements and exercise. I couldn't vitamin C or paracetamol and wouldn't even use my asthma medication "just in case" it caused similiar feelings (some inhalers are stiumlating and make you jittery).
I went downhill from here into my first real breakdown and then came Citalopram. I managed to take this despite the fear, probably because I had hopes it would help me and my GP had advised me any side effects were minor (he said "some sweating and loose bowel" which I could easily handle). Wrong. Big mistake. Bad nausea came, I felt hungry yet could barely force myself to eat a biscuit, I stopped sleeping for a couple of days and my anxiety increased whilst I now also had crushing depression which I had never felt before. I was in tears in front of my parents, a 30 year old man. They called the surgery and as my GP was out on rounds in the area, he called by. Despite previously assuring me he had dealt with lots of depression cases, he didn't know what to do and called the Crisis Team out. They came and listened and advised my GP to give me something to help me sleep and see if that helped me through the side effects. It did. I had to see my GP the next day and I started 14 days of Zopiclone. It lost it's effect after a week but I was still sleeping enough on it but was exhausted upon waking for hours, couldn't eat and struggled just getting out of bed for an hour each morning. I felt drugged, which I assumed was the Zopiclone still working despite not sleeping more than 5-6 hours. The Crisis Team came back after a couple of weeks to check and advised me I shouldn't be taking the stuff daily but every other day. I had been on it nearly a month now so my GP was claiming he didn't want to give anymore. I had a final 7 days and I spaced it out every other day to come off it, which I just did because it was how I should have taken it before. I wasn't given any advice by either on how to withdraw from it. The first few times it was a typical pattern of not sleeping to sleeping well until it became more of a bit of both. It took months to correct my sleep though but this would have been the Citalopram affecting me at tghe early stages too.
This did an immense amount of damage to me. I just wasn't prepared at all. The second time around I treated it as a "worse before better" scenario and whilst it was very hard (and very different going on a SNRI), I just kept going and didn't bother with my GP other than updating him at the appointments he wanted. He wouldn't admit it was the SNRI anyway, despite the PIL clearly detailing the rarer side effects I suffered. Another dent in my confidence of GP's.
So, this had a deep impact on me as these events were traumatic to me and only reinforced the previous ones. I was developing some core beliefs around use of medication, taking any pills or liquids and it expanded out into food issues on the SNRI which I didn't have before starting that med!
BUT is is about the supplements? Is it about the exercise too as I was afraid to do that? No. It was pretty obvious why I was afraid to do exercise, the similiar sensations to panic & anxiety and something many of us will have experienced. BUT these weren't core beliefs in their own right. Why? Because it was not fearing the pills themselves but the effects and the only reasons the effects were an issue was because they made we panic or anxious or could be seen to stimulate me to feel similiar sensations.
So, the core belief was deeper than this. Simply put, these were attached cores. the exercise one was attached in a slightly different way to the rest but the connection is ultimately the same when you drill down.
The core belief was clearly panic & anxiety symptoms themselves and my fear of experiencing them. This is because the fear I had now gained was the same as the one I gained from my panic & anxiety at work so I had made connections between these isolated events and created these attached cores.
I can work on attached cores, and have done over the past year or so BUT on their own they will never remove that original core belief. I can make improvements to my life to exercise and take supplements again but it will simply strip a few petals from that Vicious Flower and learn the true cure in place. This core can keep working against me to replace those old petals with new ones or reinstate those old ones again or even both to make the situations even more complex and potentially intense/life-limiting.
So, I have been working on my fear of the supplements and exercise here & there. I have now started to tackle supplements in a more aggresive approach which is paying off more. Since I am also seeing improvements in how I feel from some of these supplements, I am building new core beliefs or attached cores stating how I belief them to be a positive thing. In essense, at least some petals on a Virtuous Flower. This is also creating new positive memories to push those old negative ones further back into obscurity.
Whilst I tackled the food issue head on at the start (I was panicking eating due to the location, the settee, being where some of the worst panic had been in my relapse and how the change in bodily sensations scared me) with a distraction techniq but I have felt it raise it's head again from time to time so it still is in there and needs some work. It's more minor though.
My true core belief about anxiety & panic symptoms is a complex one and attached to many other issues than simply the above. This is a massive one, so removing petals can help me get closer to it rather than tackling to hardest issues all in one go.
I wanted to take the time to bump this thread due to the extremely valuable information here.
A little backstory about myself: about a year ago, I quit smoking marijuana cold turkey after a daily binge for 9 months. This was due to some stressful times at work, although I did not realize I was masking the anxiety and stress with the drug until much after. In the week following this, I suffered an anxiety attack on an airplane followed by 4 days of withdrawal hell in a hotel room 800 miles from my city. I experienced symptoms of anxiety, depression, insomnia, lack of appetite, nausea, and agoraphobia. I was too afraid to leave my hotel room due to the symptoms at hand and I also had fear of having a panic attack and hyperventilating. I went to a clinic and was given some Xanax pills (6x - 0.25mg). With my pills in hand, I ended up driving home due to the immense fear of facing another flight. Upon returning home, my life as far as I knew it had changed.
For the past 11 months, I have been digging my way out of a mild agoraphobic hole using what seems like a fork. I developed various fears all revolving around the fear of having a panic attack, or feeling trapped or being too far away from home. I am functional and still work, however, some days can be a challenge. Since the event, I have struggled travelling long distances, flying, or doing some daily activities that would have otherwise been extremely normal a year ago. The anticipatory anxiety that develops is a fear and anxiety that I have never felt before in my life. Travel and flying was what I lived for, and will still live for as soon as I can find peace.
After starting some neurofeedback therapy, and doing various amount of self guided exposure therapy, I still have struggled with these daily tasks. This is why this thread and a various amount of MyNameIsTerry and Davit's posts and threads have gravitated to me. I feel like I finally found a logical explanation as to what has been happening to me. Throughout all of my 'exposure' in travelling long distances, or doing other normal tasks in my day-to-day, I still always have thoughts of panic or intrusive images of me hyperventilating (which is related to a panic attack I had in 2012, went to the ER, was hyperventilating), but the panic never comes. The symptoms can be distressing, but if I distract myself, it goes away. However, I am always stuck in my head, fearing what may happen next.
After reading this thread and various others, the idea of core beliefs, positive talk, CBT and why exposure therapy wasn't working for me, I finally had a gigantic spark of hope. A eureka moment, if you will. I have not had a full blown panic attack in well over 5 years; however, I have had limited symptom attacks. Mostly revolving around racing heartbeat, pressure in my chest and a feeling of butterflies, or doom, or pure adrenaline in what seems like my solar plexus (where stomach meets bottom of chest) which brings on awful fear. After reading these threads, I feel I have a core belief that I cannot cope with panic, that I fear having a panic attack and hyperventilating and these are situational depending where I am. But I don't believe the situations have much to do with the symptoms. I believe it all comes from the automatic thoughts I have about panic.
The purpose of this really is to possibly seek some guidance in how to properly begin the Cognitive Restructuring processes that Davit had spoke in detail about. I have read through numerous threads, looked at the links provided, read various studies and have a general idea; however, it is difficult to gauge where to actually start on this road of recovery. I am starting CBT with my neurofeedback therapist, but I also want to be productive during the week when I am not seeing my therapist. In addition, is there anyway to contact Davit as I understand he was banned from this website two years ago. He consistently spoke about a book that he had created and sent to users on this board. It would be more than helpful if someone could point me in the direction of it, if it exists somewhere.
I also want to point out that the information here by the various users will not go unnoticed. Your empathetic attitudes, knowledge and willingness to help have likely helped hundreds, if not thousands of other people in the dark. I cannot thank you all enough.
Cheers.
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