Do any of you have intrusive thoughts?

[Bonnibelle]

If you do how do you accept them and be ok with them?

I have had harm intrusive thoughts for 16 months. I am doing good but lately I am letting them scare me a little again as I have realised I still have them every day and I fear I am a terrible mother.

I am just wondering if I am alone and whether anyone else has them and how you cope well with them.

Bon

[gregcool]

You are not alone.there are many of us on hear that have them and im sure others will come along soon...i used to get them when i was living with my wife and kids.i hated them and never thought they would ever go.but i just excepted them and although they felt real ,like i would act out the thoughts,i never did.when yiu can learn to except them,they get less and weeker and in time they will fade..

[Bonnibelle]

Thank you Greg,

That's very reassuring. I rarely post here now but I thought it might be good for me to just get some perspective and a little reassurance i am not alone in this.

Bon

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Bon,

Intrusive thoughts are most associated with OCD, although all anxiety disorder sufferers can have them, so you will find plenty about this on the OCD board.

Most of the current threads are about some form of intrusive thoughts.

I have had them myself (I have GAD & OCD) which mainly manifested as harm against my parents and strangers. With my parents it was tied with touching & imagery routines that were coupled to my Magical Thinking form.

Example:

I would touch a window to open it and see an imagine of my mothers face and a thought would come of harm or death. There may not always have been an imagine of something happening because sometimes it was just a thought that it could. I would then have to keep her face in my mind whilst I touched this object over & over until I felt it was "just right".

Thats just one. I would have some about hurting strangers in the street too.

CBT was doing very little with all this so I switched to working on my GAD to reduce overall anxiety levels and I has recently started Mindfulness meditation. These 2 strategies resolved all my intrusive thoughts.

There have been studies that show all people have intrusive thoughts and they are not just seen in anxiety disorders. Those studied didn't even realise they were having them because they would flash through so quickly without them attaching anything to it.

So, you have to be realistic that such thoughts may continue. However, they will become much less frequent and the intensity will go completely. I find now that they just float straight through with either no reaction or even amusement at times because I know how ludicrous they are.

Not reacting is important. The area of the brain that handles fear will look for emotional reaction, the stronger the better, and then use that to reinforce the view that this thought is "valid". Notice the use of the term valid, not correct or incorrect, merely valid. Thus is will keep operating it.

By learning to not react, you tell that area of the brain that the thought is not valid. Because a lack of emotion is not what its looking for, it takes a bit longer for it to truly build new neural pathways that these new non reactive reactions prove. Then once it has done this it will send out the thoughts without symptoms of anxiety and as long as you remain non judgemental, you won't reactivate the old pathways.

Being non judgemental is important. Mindfulness teaches this. You have to change from reacting by questioning the thought to just thinking "its just a thought, I didn't ask for it, its neither good nor bad". Also, don't then say to yourself that you must be a bad person due to this. By doing this you are using a negative thought pattern known as Emotional Reasoning and this will strengthen both the thought and your Core Beliefs that you are a bad person, useless, weak, etc. You are not any of that.

Are you a terrible mother? Why? Because of these thoughts? But these thoughts are irrational and surely don't override all the many good things you do in your life and as a mother? So, why terrible? You think that because you can't understand why you should be having these thoughts. You may think they reflect the real you coming out, but this is not the case.

There is a useful OCD site by a medical professional who treats OCD in the US, Steve Seay. This explains things I couldn't find on the UK charities websites about OCD. He states in one of his articles that he sees people with harm based OCD and has found them to be some of the nicest & kind people he has ever met. He then says "I wonder why that could be?". He says this because their OCD is attacking the things the hold most dear. For some this is a parent having thoughts about harming their child or perhaps abusing them. Doesn't it make sense that its the opposite of your true feelings and thats why it is so shocking? If it were your nature, you wouldn;t be shocking and would indulge in them.

Honestly, have a look at the OCD board and you will see people just like this. Some of them are parents too.

[Bonnibelle]

Thank you very much Terry for such an informative reply.

I have been having ERP for my intrusives and was told I had Ocd. I have found it beneficial but I still occasion ally get setbacks. I've had the cbt for about a year now.

You say cbt wasn't helping you but 2 things you've tried have, one being mindfulnessm what was the other thing that helped?

Yes I worry what the thoughts actually mean about me
.I'm a very loving mother and adore my children so I find this very difficult.

I love meditation and I've recently started it again.

I shall look at the ocd board, thank you.

Bon

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Bon,

Well I was having CBT when I was pretty bad and whilst it helped define some structure and get me trying things, it wasn't budging the OCD at all. So, I completelly gave up on addressing OCD and just focussed on the GAD with Mindfulness and using things like relaxation techniques to bring my overall GAD levels down as they were underpinning the OCD. For me, GAD was first and it is the primary issue so my OCD was only ever going to reduce so far even if I could do it.

If you can continue to work on reducing your anxiety in general, you should notice that these thoughts come less frequently and the resulting panic won't be as intense. The Mindfulness can take care of the rest.

Have a look at Davit's "Words" and expecially "Core Beliefs" threads on the Panic board because some of us have been discussing these and Cognitive Restructuring, Cognitive Distortions, etc. I think that will help you because there are tools linked in there that are aimed at addressing these thoughts and some modules about changing your beliefs that underpin anxiety. Negative thoughts & the words we use are more powerful than positive ones and the words thread has some useful articles attached that explain why this is.

If you love meditation, have a look at the link in my signature because I've compiled a load of free resources for people including a full 8 week MBSR online course.

I love my parents, if I had to die to protect them it there would be no question. So, mine focussed on that.

I've been people on here with POCD and how badly that affect them. The funny thing is, they are parents who dearly love their kids. One of the isn't but used to coach kids. These people clearly have strong morals about children, just like you.

If you think about it, if your anxiety decided it didn't want you to like the colour yellow or a certain brain of food, it wouldn't bother you much. Anxiety has a survival mechanism of its own, it finds ways to scare us to keep itself in place. For me its the love for my parents, for you its the love for your children. The effect is the same, anxiety preserves itself.

By reducing overally anxiety, I pulled the rug from under my OCD rituals. Mindfulness dealt with the thoughts by changing how I view my thoughts.

All the best.


Terry

[Bonnibelle]

Thank you Terry.

Amazing advice and I shall take a look at the links and post you suggested.

I am so glad I posted as I don't feel as alone in it now and I have gained alot of great advice from you, I appreciate it.

I agree, I adore my children, I would die for them, they are my world. I know that's why anxiety attaches itself to them as it knows how to affect us.

My GP said to me last year when this all began, if we bring the anxiety levels down the thoughts will calm too. Just like you say, it's about bringing the overall anxiety to a lower level as the thoughts really are just a product of high anxiety. I have my thoughts daily but they only spike hard when I am very anxious.

I think for me it's one big habit now and I am frustrated as to why I have the thoughts everytime I am around them. It has brought my confidence rock bottom and even though I am doing well now I still get upset that I still have the lingering thoughts because I then worry why they aren't leaving me and then it triggers the am I a bad person and this isn't anxiety, type thoughts.

Big help, thanks Terry.

Bon

[MyNameIsTerry]

It again makes sense though if you think about it Bon, anxiety knows when to pull the trigger as it knows our weak points. This is why its so important not to run from that situation or avoid it later because it will reinforce itself off that.

I'm glad to hear a GP say that, it sounds like yours has some experience dealing with this.

In the NICE guidelines they tend to try therapy first and combined therapy with meds later. Anxiety can be severe enough to stop therapy getting anywhere so by introducing a med they bring the anxiety down just enough to give you that control back so you can progress through therapy. So, I think it was the same principle with my issues, reduce the one propping up all the rest and you get enough control back to work under your own steam.

When these thoughts come, don't judge them and use the curious awareness Mindfulness teaches. If you are new to it, it will come with practice.

I didn't feel it working for over a month and then I started thinking slightly differently about things and it went from there. I had some eureka moments too where things just seemed to click and I understood. I can remember when I was out walking once and just felt like I wanted to sit on a grass bank next to a stream. I sat, felt the grass, watched the insects, listened to the birds, etc. I felt the free and I hadn't felt that in years. It happened a few times that week and then not again but ever since I have had lesser feelings of that freedom and felt more comfortable. After 6 months I suddently felt my attitude change to greater compassion too.

If you want a weird example of a moment of realisation, I have one. I suddenly felt quite woosy and thought I had better head to the toilet downstairs as I felt sick. When I got there I ended up on my knees being sick and the strangest thing happened, I felt a thought come that said "ah, so this is how nausea truly feels and how you would be sick" and from that day on I have never had my nausea issues again. I had a stomach bug for the next few days and despite that I felt somewhat pleased due to this realisation.

I still get the odd bit of nausea but its not due to anxiety anymore.

[theharvestmouse]

Yes I have them, they can be very scary but they are thoughts and even though they are there they are not controlling us, they pass.

[NoPoet]

What we need to keep in mind is that intrusive thoughts upset us so much because they are the opposite of what we really want. The emotional distress comes from our rejection of these thoughts, but because we fight so hard against them, our subconscious keeps projecting them; it's like a dog fetching a stick that you're trying to chuck away.

Try to keep in mind that intrusive thoughts exist for everyone, whether or not they're ill, but people with anxiety issues treat the thoughts seriously instead of simply thinking "What the hell was THAT crap?"

[Bonnibelle]

That's great, thanks Terry.

Your posts have really helped, thank you for taking the time to reply to me. I know i shouldn't reassurance seek but sometime you need to hear you're not alone in it and trust it is anxiety causing the thoughts.

I love mindfulness and how you describe knowing it was helping you gives me hope that in time I will feel that way too and I will see my thoughts differently to how I do now.

The thing I struggle with is that I am still scared of the thoughts meaning I am suffering with something far worse than anxiety. I still get the thoughts and sometimes the image in my head with the thought and I feel very on edge around those I am having the thoughts about. It's tough at times, I just wish I knew how to react better. I have tried so many times to just let them be there, and be ok with them but it's hard when you're a mum. I feel very on edge with the thoughts around.

Thanks again for helping me out :D

Bon


It again makes sense though if you think about it Bon, anxiety knows when to pull the trigger as it knows our weak points. This is why its so important not to run from that situation or avoid it later because it will reinforce itself off that.

I'm glad to hear a GP say that, it sounds like yours has some experience dealing with this.

In the NICE guidelines they tend to try therapy first and combined therapy with meds later. Anxiety can be severe enough to stop therapy getting anywhere so by introducing a med they bring the anxiety down just enough to give you that control back so you can progress through therapy. So, I think it was the same principle with my issues, reduce the one propping up all the rest and you get enough control back to work under your own steam.

When these thoughts come, don't judge them and use the curious awareness Mindfulness teaches. If you are new to it, it will come with practice.

I didn't feel it working for over a month and then I started thinking slightly differently about things and it went from there. I had some eureka moments too where things just seemed to click and I understood. I can remember when I was out walking once and just felt like I wanted to sit on a grass bank next to a stream. I sat, felt the grass, watched the insects, listened to the birds, etc. I felt the free and I hadn't felt that in years. It happened a few times that week and then not again but ever since I have had lesser feelings of that freedom and felt more comfortable. After 6 months I suddently felt my attitude change to greater compassion too.

If you want a weird example of a moment of realisation, I have one. I suddenly felt quite woosy and thought I had better head to the toilet downstairs as I felt sick. When I got there I ended up on my knees being sick and the strangest thing happened, I felt a thought come that said "ah, so this is how nausea truly feels and how you would be sick" and from that day on I have never had my nausea issues again. I had a stomach bug for the next few days and despite that I felt somewhat pleased due to this realisation.

I still get the odd bit of nausea but its not due to anxiety anymore.

---------- Post added at 13:59 ---------- Previous post was at 13:57 ----------

Thank you NoPoet.

That's what I have been told, these thoughts are the opposite of who we are and that should reassure me that I am not my thoughts. I also was told everyone gets them. I think that's true but mine have lasted 16 months and been daily. I may have less anxiety surrounding them now but I do wonder why I can't be fully ok with them.

Bon


What we need to keep in mind is that intrusive thoughts upset us so much because they are the opposite of what we really want. The emotional distress comes from our rejection of these thoughts, but because we fight so hard against them, our subconscious keeps projecting them; it's like a dog fetching a stick that you're trying to chuck away.

Try to keep in mind that intrusive thoughts exist for everyone, whether or not they're ill, but people with anxiety issues treat the thoughts seriously instead of simply thinking "What the hell was THAT crap?"

---------- Post added at 14:00 ---------- Previous post was at 13:59 ----------

Thank you very much Harvestmouse.

Mine have always been about myself and my family, I find it very difficult to be ok about them. I've also had them for 16 months now, I have less anxiety around them but I am still scared by them somewhat which is frustrating.

Bon


Yes I have them, they can be very scary but they are thoughts and even though they are there they are not controlling us, they pass.

[NoPoet]

It's those eternal questions - "If I keep having these thoughts, why don't I lose my fear of them?" and "If I don't want to think these things, why do I keep on thinking them?"

Maybe it's because on some level, we do believe them. This isn't the same as meaning they are true, and it doesn't mean we want them to be true. Maybe this whole thing is nothing more than cognitive dissonance, which is the weird, internal conflict we get when we have two beliefs that contradict each other. (e.g. "I know I'm not seriously ill, but I believe I'm seriously ill.")

Maybe it's not so much the thoughts that create the problem. After all, they may really be nothing more than symptoms of anxiety. Maybe what really upsets us is that we know a part of ourselves believes the thoughts. Maybe THAT'S what gives the thoughts their power over us, and maybe it's why we never really adapt. If this is true then the thoughts themselves are inconsequential. We need to eradicate that fearful belief that they may be true, and that is what will stop the thoughts from coming, or reduce their impact on us to normal levels.

It's a theory at this point but it seems to fit.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Don't feel bad about reassurance, Bon, its gets a bad rap on here but its something all people do in all areas of their life. Its only an issue when its a response to the obsession so it becomes a compulsion/ritual as it just reinforces it. People ask others to check their work for them if they are unsure or someone asks another to have a quick look to see if their understanding is correct.

So, like everything else its not that reassurance is bad, its that its used excessively. Like everything else in anxiety, normal behaviours get dialled up & down.

You are doing the right thing, don't be tempted to leave that situation as avoidance sends a strong message to the subconscious. These explain it:

http://psychology.tools/thought-suppression.html
http://psychology.tools/intrusive-thoughts-brain-metaphor.html

Can you see how avoidance tells the subconscious it is doing its job right? So, despite being anxious staying in a situation, its better than sending than sending the subconscious another option to play with since it already knows staying in the situation is connected to anxiety. Add more into the equation and things get harder to overcome.

Aside from the non judgemental method, there is also the Cognitive Reconstruction method. Here is a link to some tools used in CBT to change this:

http://psychology.tools/cognitive-restructuring.html

[jonjones]

Hi Bon,

I used to get terrible intrusive thoughts, especially if I´d just woken from a nap. And I´d get so tense, I just couldn´t shake them off. It was just pure anxiety.

Now however I can think the same thought on purpose and there´s not prob, they just melt away.

It was mental and emotional fatigue, together with tension that was causing me the problem. Once I learned to relax and not tense against myself when I had the thoughts, and take deep breaths, exhale slowly, and float, let go of myself and loosen up, and let the thoughts be there then I lost my fear of them.

Fear of them is what gives them energy. If you consciously think the thought but dont add fear to them then you will see that they have no effect. You see them for what they really are, words of the alphebet put together to make sentences. Whats so scary about that?

Once you start to see it like this then the power of the thoughts loses their hold on you!

If I could offer some advice it would be to let go, sag, loosen up, deep breaths, let your shoulder, arms, tummy muscles fall, go limp, and float.

Best,

Jon

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Bon,

I noticed your OCD thread has come down. If you weren't getting many responses its probably because its a quite board on NMP to be honest. I can promise you that I have seen lots of parents talk about intrusive thoughts, many off this website so if you are not getting what you need on here go a Google search for it and you will see the other forums out there discussing it. Also, you can view the forum on OCDUK's website without signing up (a few of their boards are locked to registered members only) so you should find a lot more on there. You could also look at Steve Seay's articles on intrusive thoughts because he tends to have a lot of people adding comments underneath them and I've seen some of them are parents.

[Bonnibelle]

Thank you Poet. That is a good theory :-)

JonJones - Perfect words, thank you. I cried a little reading that.

I do notice that they seem to come when I am highly anxious. Yesterday I watched a film and it had some horrible scenes in it. Afterwards I felt very anxious and had intrusives near my children, I didn't like being left alone with them. So I then noticed the high anxiety and intrusive connection. I guess it's good I can observe it now.

Also, my big issue is that I get images in my mind with the thoughts if my anxiety is very high and it's during those moments I will be sat with my child and I think oh no am I going to act on it, and I panic and sometimes walk out the room or go and keep busy. I wish I knew how to lose my fear of that. Thoughts themselves I can but the scary images with the thoughts scare me alot. I have been told they are the same as thoughts, it's just your mind imagines the thing you are thinking. I then worry I am not normal which fuels my fear I am a danger. I wish I could cope better with those moments as to be honest they are what keep me scared of my intrusives. Any advice?

The thoughts I can just accept now and I can have days where I am noticing that I didn't have them that often but on the days where I am so scared of them and if I am alone and have the images I just panic inside and my fear of them returns.

During my CBT/ERP I was told to write the script out and read it to myself daily of the very thought i was thinking. I must admit reading that 10x a day did lessen the impact. Sounds just like what you have suggested.

Thanks for your helpful reply.

Bon.

---------- Post added at 14:31 ---------- Previous post was at 14:22 ----------

Hi Terry

Thank you so much. Sorry it's taken a while for me to reply, I haven't been about that much and also I have had a little health scare so I have taken a break from the internet.

Good links, I shall have a proper read through them now. Thank you.

If you see my reply above to Jon, what I am left with now after 18 months of intrusives is the way I don't cope with the images. I have thoughts and I can be ok with them, they are just thoughts but for example last night. I was feeling some anxiety after watching a film with a few upsetting scenes in it (I should know better than to watch anything that makes me jumpy lol) and my daughter sat next to me chatting adn I had intrusives of what if I lashed out and hurt her, which then I see in my mind. I then feel agitated and need to move away from her. It's those moments i hate and I still react badly too. I know thoughts are just thoughts but the images scare me, I have been told it's just a movie script likening and the image is just the mind imaginging what you are thinking. But the way I feel in those moments freaks me, I get scared because I am imagining it in my mind then I am about to do it. I feel a rush of agitation/panic, it makes me feel horrible.

So yes it's that I can't seem to get over. I have made huge improvements but how can I react better to that? I add so much fear to those moments as I fear they mean I will just lose control and act on those thoughts/images. I then worry is it anxiety, or something far worse if i get images in my mind with my thoughts. I told my therapist this months back and she said the images were no different to thoughts, it's just the imagination She said they are the same thing and part of OCD.

I still worry though :blush:

If I could overcome this fear, or not add fear to it and truly believe that I am ok then I could brush them off like I can the thoughts alone. I read things like you are not your thoughts, you cant control your thoughts but you can your actions but I get scared what if I lost control because when the anxiety and agitation hits I feel horrible inside and it freaks me out I am not in control. I know people say we are and that's just adrenaline flooding the body, but it still frightens me alot.

Thank you for your help.

Bon


Don't feel bad about reassurance, Bon, its gets a bad rap on here but its something all people do in all areas of their life. Its only an issue when its a response to the obsession so it becomes a compulsion/ritual as it just reinforces it. People ask others to check their work for them if they are unsure or someone asks another to have a quick look to see if their understanding is correct.

So, like everything else its not that reassurance is bad, its that its used excessively. Like everything else in anxiety, normal behaviours get dialled up & down.

You are doing the right thing, don't be tempted to leave that situation as avoidance sends a strong message to the subconscious. These explain it:

http://psychology.tools/thought-suppression.html
http://psychology.tools/intrusive-thoughts-brain-metaphor.html

Can you see how avoidance tells the subconscious it is doing its job right? So, despite being anxious staying in a situation, its better than sending than sending the subconscious another option to play with since it already knows staying in the situation is connected to anxiety. Add more into the equation and things get harder to overcome.

Aside from the non judgemental method, there is also the Cognitive Reconstruction method. Here is a link to some tools used in CBT to change this:

http://psychology.tools/cognitive-restructuring.html

[MyNameIsTerry]

Hi Bon,

Those links will be useful to you because they explain how our reaction can reinforce it. Leaving the situation for instance, is one that will reinforce the thoughts so its worth staying in that situation so that you don't send those signals.

Don't try to suppress them either, that has been shown in some studies to have a paradoxical effect and cause us to focus on them more.

Distraction techniques can also be a no-no in OCD if practicing ERP.

From reading about some of this in the past I've seen therapists advise to use methods such as sitting with a person in that danger catagory and actively thinking the thoughts. Its an exposure technique. I can't say I've ever thought this to be a good idea (with POCD mostly) as it means you engage with the thoughts but therapist obviously understand it to work without a detrimental effect so it must be useful. In ERP they also do this by telling you to think the thoughts to purposely make yourself anxious so that you can then practice seeing the anxiety decrease after the 20-30 minutes where anxiety seems to start to drop.

I have also read about treatment of Sensorimotor/Somatoform OCD where they use Mindfulness as the environment for creating these thoughts consciously so that you can then examine them in a non judgemental way. This would need to be in meditation form then. This seems worthwhile since its not really engaging, just observing without judgement or reaction. This might be a gentler way of inviting the thoughts as you will be in a controlled calm state.

Images are more provocative than simple thoughts alone. You've resolved the simple thoughts, you can do this too but its just a bit more detailed than you would like and actually seeing yourself doing something seems more real. They are right, its just a thought, intrusive images are just the same as intrusive thoughts.

---------- Post added at 10:38 ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 ----------

Hi Bon,

I was adding a link to some tools for someone else and came across a useful page with tools that gives examples of how to conduct a Behavioural Experiment to test the Cognitive Bias issue. It includes one for harm around others so this coule be useful to you. I would also suggest reading section 3.

http://self-help.tools/obsessive-compulsive-disorder/

It may also be useful to drill down your intrusive thoughts this way:

http://media.psychology.tools/worksheets/english_us/cognitive_model_of_ocd_en-us.pdf?

Perhaps you will discover some themes? These beliefs can then be worked on, something Davit's "Core Beliefs" thread on the Panic board has a load of tools for. You could also use Thought Records to write down evidence against the thought. There are various Thought Records on this link http://psychology.tools/download-therapy-worksheets.html