View Full Version : Memory
This is another of those things where two words seem to have the same meaning but don't.
To remember and to memorize seem to mean the same. Both use memory. To remember is to use long term memory to do something without conscious effort. Like how to drive a car. How to get to the store. Important things. Remember that word "important". I want you to remember it, not memorize it. Grocery lists you memorize and how to get to a store you plan to visit only once. So how do you remember? By repetition and that word important. See, I can remember numbers far easier than names. This isn't dementia, it just is importance. So why does this even matter? Because memory is the source of panic attacks. In other posts I mention that our minds work on appropriate. It does what it thinks it should because it thinks that is appropriate. How, by remembering. (long term memory) Why is it in long term memory? Because repetition and that word important put it there. This is interesting because to memorize something takes conscious thought, but to remember only has to have importance attached to it. Remember I said memory is the source of panic attacks. Log term memory does not care if it is negative or positive as long as it is important and repeated it will go from short term memory to long term memory. Some people only ever have one panic attack which they don't attach importance to and therefore don't think about and without repetition and importance it does not go into long term memory other than it happened. There is lots of stuff in our "it happened memory". Now the next person has a panic attack and being negative worries. Here you have it, importance and repetition have taken it from short term memory and put it in long term and made it appropriate by repetition. Exposure therapy attempts to use this, but fails because it doesn't take into account personality. If you look at your exposure negatively the repetition will put that into memory and you won't get better, you will probably get worse. So if you had a positive personality you could do it? If you were thinking positive you wouldn't have the panic attacks in the first place. Like it or not you have to get rid of the negative attitude first. And that is personality. And again repetition built your personality and the attitude that goes with it. Remembering does not take conscious thought like memorizing. Repetition and an unconscious importance is all it needs. I can remember the solutions to over 30 of the levels in Bug because repetition and wanting to know what the next level brings has given them importance and they are in long term memory. You can use this to get rid of panic attacks permanently and this is what is called cognitive restructuring. It requires a change of attitude and personality to work but it does work. And therein lies the problem, can you change your attitude so you can quit remembering negatives. I don't mean to be insulting but if you are loading your memory with anxiety then you definitely have a negative attitude because a positive one can not do that. So where did it come from and why now? That I leave to you to figure out, but you do have a reason to. A very good reason in fact.
Makes perfect sense.
Like it or not you have to get rid of the negative attitude first. And that is personality. And again repetition built your personality and the attitude that goes with it. Remembering does not take conscious thought like memorizing. Repetition and an unconscious importance is all it needs.
:emot-bulb:
But will people do it, can they do it, there are still core beliefs controlling. It ain't easy. I think that is a song.
Definitely not easy but worth it.
MyNameIsTerry
12-05-15, 04:50
Emotional response is also key, the Amygdala looks for that.
PTSD is the one that defies this rule I think but perhaps thats because the emotional reaction is so strong that it overrides the Long Term Potentiation (LTP) process used normally.
The site I use for CBT tools has this for PTSD for the Amygdala & Hippocampus:
http://psychology.tools/ptsd-and-memory.html
Exposure can just make things worse but this is when its a bad exposure exercise. If you follow it correctly and are able to see a 50% reduction in anxiety you also need to strongly recognise the fact that you have made an achievement. Then get repeating and advancing further up the hierarchy.
If you perform exposure, hate it and never feel a reduction you can expect to have just reinforced your anxiety & panic about that situation and many similiar ones. This is why I think "flooding" is pretty stupid as it takes a big chance.
But Terry if you recognize you are making gains then that is cognitive. And that changes the exposure to a test of your capability rather than a chore you do to get cured. And that I have nothing against. It is when therapists say things like you just need to try harder or you bull through come hell or high water. But mostly I feel sorry for those around a person doing this. When a person uses anger as a coping skill they end up transferring their anxiety to those around them. This is called second hand anxiety. So a whole group or family can end up being anxious so that one person gets relief. That is not right. I stand by my thoughts, Even if flooding (off the deep end) works for some there is always rebound often to the person doing it if there is no one to pass it on too. The anxiety it creates needs release.
xvolatileheart
13-05-15, 22:31
So how do I go about cognitive restructuring? I have a highly anxious personality and I don't know how to change this. I have had counselling so I understand where my worries come from, and I know in theory what beliefs I need to change, but I don't know HOW. They have been truths to me for 26 years and are deeply part of me.
It's certainly not as simple as repeating positive thoughts to myself because I've been trying that for three years and the negative thoughts continue to completely overwhelm me... I'm at a loss.
It is called the ten questions. And it may be in the info Terry posted on "core beliefs", another thread. Cognitive restructuring has five steps, Relaxation and coping may seem like something to skip over but they are as important as the rest. If you can relax enough to concentrate you can change core beliefs. You don't actually change a core belief. First you find it/them. Sort them because you are looking for the root not just individuals. Many spring from one episode in your life. If you have cores that say I'm stupid or I'm short or I'm ugly, these are not important. What is important is the core belief that caused these. Often it turns out to be a person or persons. That is the root and that is the one you want to change or new cores will spring from it. Change the root and all its off shoots die with it.
So if someone you were taught to believe in told you things that were not true then you need to change the core that says you have to believe them. You do this by questioning the core for validity. Is it true, why do you think it is true? Was the person who said this honest, reliable or some one you think you should believe? Have there been other lies? Questions of that nature. Once you find the root core and once you decide it is negative you accept it is a core belief and create a core thought towards it. Repeat the exercise ten times and it becomes a core belief. So now you have two. Now comes the restructuring. Nothing in memory can be removed, there is no delete key. But every thought has a use key to access it. Episodic memory (memory that decides how when where etc.) works on appropriate it can not distinguish if a core belief is false you have to decide that, it is using your core beliefs for appropriate action. The two core beliefs have separate keys for access. The new core has positive thought for the key, the old core has negative, So even though you can not remove a core you can stop using it's key and it will fade away and for all purposes be gone. This is why the positive "want to" verses the negative "have to" works for agoraphobia. This is in the thread "words". This now and only now is when to apply positive thought, because you now have something that it is the key to. Where before it was just facts with nothing to work on. Repetition tells episodic memory that it is appropriate and therefore to use it. If you really really really believe the old core belief was false (negative) then only more negative thoughts can access it because negative is it's key. Positive thought can not cause anxiety or panic. if doing something you like causes panic then you have a negative core attached to the episode and it needs to be changed too. It may be hard to find if you have a core belief that says to do it. So to be effective with restructuring you need to do a lot of digging and sorting looking for the root or roots because only the roots are important.
Any positive thought works to access positive core beliefs. You need three things to change a core belief (change access actually) Perception,( knowing what it is) Attitude, (You need to really want to do it) and belief (You need to really believe the old core was false {negative}) Any questions just ask.
MyNameIsTerry
14-05-15, 05:19
But Terry if you recognize you are making gains then that is cognitive. And that changes the exposure to a test of your capability rather than a chore you do to get cured. And that I have nothing against. It is when therapists say things like you just need to try harder or you bull through come hell or high water. But mostly I feel sorry for those around a person doing this. When a person uses anger as a coping skill they end up transferring their anxiety to those around them. This is called second hand anxiety. So a whole group or family can end up being anxious so that one person gets relief. That is not right. I stand by my thoughts, Even if flooding (off the deep end) works for some there is always rebound often to the person doing it if there is no one to pass it on too. The anxiety it creates needs release.
Yes, I agree. In ERP you would only start with things that you can use to bring your anxiety down. Then you recognise your anxiety has decreased so you take that cognitive step. It doesn't work a lot of the time as its taking time to change the old beliefs about those situations as you have said.
If the goal seems possible but it ends in failure, you go back a step and create one or more stepping stones to work up through.
The old "flooding" technique, I don't think its even used anymore, unless in the hands of the psychologists maybe as they have many more techniques inb their toolkits? I still don't agree with it though, I think it can work in the absence of true disorders & phobias, but not otherwise. For example, the people who "say" they are "afraid" but are really only a bit nervous about a situation. TV celebrities are a good example of this category.
Interoceptive Exposure seems to be around still but I don't know much about that. If it works like "flooding" then I know it would never work for me.
From my own experience of ERP, sometimes it works and other times no matter how many times you do something, it still doesn't work. That would seem to suggest changing thoughts & core beliefs are more appropriate. It may also suggest that the root is nothing connected to the exercises you are doing so its fruitless wasting your time on them when sorting the root will makje that quickly go away anyway.
I always thought the root is what therapists like to aim for.
Good ones aim for the root, but some times the client doesn't want to go there. the strongest core belief is one that justifies believing all the negative ones for no other reason than that you think you are supposed to. This can come from being told if you don't do as you are told something bad will happen to you. How many parents have told their children that if they don't do exactly as I say you will end up on the street or in jail. Fear tactics
MyNameIsTerry
14-05-15, 07:17
I'm happy to say mine never said things like that.
I never really did anything with core beliefs in my CBT. I think she was trying to get to understand how I felt about things and we would work through them on a whiteboard e.g. my thoughts, how I felt, sensations, etc but it never went any further than that. More time was spent on things you could do or try.
What do you make of the use of the olfactory system in memory storage?
I was reading an article about how they have found that smells are made worse when experiencing anxiety. Even neutral or things that don't smell at all suddenly become bad smelling.
It sounded to me like smells play some form of role with memories, maybe attached to them as the anchor?
I think I recall it even said that the 2 systems (olfactory & emotional) are next to each other and in times of anxiety, the olfactory takes over the emotional system.
Everything gets exaggerated in a panic attack. That is Amygdala saying hey look at me, lets have some action. I can smell things in dreams but not as well as the other senses. Sound though is missing but I may add it in. Still it would be only the thought of what it would sound like.
bump
---------- Post added at 21:34 ---------- Previous post was at 17:38 ----------
I need more of this. I was at 192000 on the fisher and hit that stupid game thing and lost it.
---------- Post added at 21:47 ---------- Previous post was at 21:34 ----------
This is like bug, just time consuming, no challenge, well bug at least is a challenge and you don't have to start at the beginning if you screw up. With bug I can push it up so the start new game box is blocked.
Got so tired today I could barely put one foot in front of the other. And I'm trying to concentrate. Oh well another time when I have half a day not earmarked for something better to do. Ear marking is the practice of clipping pieces out of a pigs ear so you can tell them apart since they all look the same. Disssspicable.
MyNameIsTerry
24-05-15, 07:16
Lightweight...you've got some catching up to do if you want to beat me :D
Its a very easy game to get a massive score on if you start right as you end up with a total about 30 levels ahead within an hour. I just bought the one for the little fish, was it salt?
dally
Ahhh. The thoughts were positive but you didn't believe them did you. You didn't believe you were there because you wanted to be. All through your post you are thinking "have to". You can build positives to counter every negative as much as you want put you need positive thought to open them. One tiny negative thought and you open a negative even though you want the positive. On top of that you picked something with too many triggers. Start smaller.
Changing to "want to" and actually believing it is hard because we are conditioned to having to do things because we are responsible. But see that is restructuring. You need three things for it to work. Perception, you did that. Attitude, you obviously want to be able to do this, belief, no you still don't believe you can. You still believe you "have to" and have to is your negative key to accessing the negative thoughts. Even living with the anxiety is something you think you have to. You are thinking it "has to" go because I can't live with it. Truth is you can and so many books preach acceptance but the wrong kind, they preach accept it then beat it with a big stick. I preach accept it then pick it apart one tiny piece at a time. Go back to your trip and look for the good in it. It started with you wanting too didn't it. If you didn't "want to", you were predestined to fail right there.
Milder exposure, you don't have the personality to do off the deep end exposure, you did it and now you have a big negative core thought from it you need to drop because a couple of more times like that and it will be a core belief.
Lets get you some belief you can use. Anxiety is totally curable. I'm your reason to believe that, I'm cured. I would have done the trip with ease even though I don't like restaurants or the food. The heat, the traffic would not bother me and I would not have used them for excuses for my anxiety. They are just triggers. You added the negative to them and gave them access to your negative memories. Even if the rest of your family was hot and complaining that is just triggers. What part of the trip was good? You can start with the fact you did it against all adversity. Anything? Were you the only unhappy one? If so then it was a success and so were you. Only positive thoughts you can actually believe. Positive thoughts you don't believe are no good. They are actually negatives if you don't believe them. Start smaller, You can do this, I did and that you have to accept and believe.
You will have this freedom too.
But you have positives. Everyone enjoyed the meal. It is only not positive to you because you are associating the whole trip with your failure. (assumed since it wasn't really) The harder things you have done, were they done alone? They are usually more possible because you have no one else to consider so can just bull through them. Only with them you didn't really win because you will have to do it again next time. See coping isn't winning. I want to help you win.
You are right on one count, you have no control of your panic condition. No one has because your mind is using what it has. Where you will have control is in how you think about any situation. That then goes into memory and your mind then has a choice. If it is positive it is positive cognitive restructuring. If it is negative nothing changes.
When you planned the outing you used memory and since there was no anxiety memory was positive memories, yet once into the trip you were not using them to keep control. You went to negative memories in association with the trip. The heat and the traffic. You can't use anything unless it is there. You must have other bad experiences with the heat and traffic. There only has to be one of each for you to have something you can feed Amygdala so it can cause panic symptoms. And it only has to be in memory, it doesn't have to have happened directly to you.
So some things to consider. You want to do this, you don't have to, no matter how much you think you have to. If you have to you are setting yourself up for failure.
People don't fail, situations do. Changing how you see a situation changes it. You didn't run did you even though you wanted to. You didn't fail nor did the situation,till you think it did. You didn't run, that is a positive. Everyone else had fun, that is a positive. You did the best you could at the time, that is a positive. You can make everyone of those thoughts negatives far too easy. So the question is why would you? What is driving these negative thoughts, you obviously want them to go away? Where are they coming from?
You are one of the few people to successfully do off the deep end exposure successfully. Most people would not make it to ten times. I'm impressed because as you probably know because most people can't do it I don't recommend it. It says something for your determination. It should have countered any core that said you can't. And by rights it should cover every situation unless and this is a big unless, you don't like bulling your way through any situation. The idea that you may have to bull your way through again may be keeping the anxiety alive. (What ifs.) How do you feel about the fact this was the only way you could do something your siblings would do with ease? Here we would have a core unrelated to Agoraphobia but affecting it. It would be a very common core belief that there must be something wrong with you, or something wrong with you now, since you were not always like that. This one usually comes from a trauma that was your fault. So the core would go like this, each thought building another: It is my fault, first core, I'm not good enough, second core. I can't do...... third core. I want to but can't fourth core. Only the fourth core being obvious because PTSD keeps a person from going back looking for the root core. This of course is only an example of why you will have trouble finding the cause for the core that affects you. You did say you had many stressful incidents, it is most likely one of them that started the run of core beliefs that ended in the one causing your anxiety. And because they are your cores not your siblings you get the anxiety even if they played a roll in the first (root) core.
30 years would be a long time to go back looking for core beliefs. Can you remember your first panic attack well enough to remember what it was associated with. Was it similar to this one, are they all similar. You know Agoraphobia is about control not the outdoors, being out of your safe zone is only how it manifests itself.
Getting back to the trip. There is a car, you, your husband and your daughter driving. Why was your daughter driving? Did that add to your anxiety, Just have to rule it out. This is called Occam's razor. You rule out everything it can't be and what is left is where to start. You never said if you like to drive or not, if not, why? Still looking for a core to trace back to it's root. You have to go all the way back or you will never be free of it.
Do you have IBS? That is a big cause for anxiety. Good reason to not be able to eat.
I don't know what else I can say at the moment since I don't know what can be causing this. I'd just be guessing. I don't guess. The above are only possibilities. It is something to think on.
In attachment theory there are four different personality types and it is possible to have siblings fit into different ones depending on the degree of attachment they have. Normally attachment is to ones mother but it can be to anyone, or in worst case no one. Mine is actually my Grandmother because my mother didn't want me. There are scars.
Your sister does two things I do to overcome Agoraphobia. Acceptance and wanting to. I accept that my life will never be what I want it to be, and I do nothing that I don't want to which means I have to find a way to want to do the things I have to do. She does it unconsciously, I had to learn it. But even harder was learning to believe it.
Your first attacks are actually anxiety attacks and I had them too. Under almost the same conditions except I had a car. The common thing was no control. I couldn't go home because My friends were with me. You couldn't go home without taking a bus. Although technically not a panic attack it does set us up for them in the future. After the age of 18 our brain makes one major shift in function and we lose a lot of thoughts so we will have spare memory storage. This is to prepare us for becoming adults. The need to learn new things is not as important as to remember routines. Unfortunately if negatives are a big part of our life they are not discarded and anxiety gets worse. Pressure to act mature gets us through a lot of stressful situations but it still gets stored in memory as something you had no control over. This is the beginning of using the negative "have to". I escaped a lot of this by leaving home and living in a cabin in the bush away from people. Doing what I wanted to do with little responsibility. My job though was high responsibility and stressful. But I had control because I was left alone to do it. I never took the job home. I developed a love of a challenge so actually liked my stressful job and wanted to do it. So that gave me control. No panic attacks.
I've been lucky, I never ever had to apply for a job, they came to me. But they were always jobs I was left to do on my own. Jobs no one wanted. This gave me control also.
Panic didn't show up till I became dependent on others and had to work with others, there went my control of the situation. And without years of practice I could not bull through, besides being the wrong personality type to do that anyway.
This is where cognitive restructuring comes in. Learning to take back control by learning to control thoughts when the situation can not be controlled. I have little control of my life anymore, there is no where to hide from it but I do have control of how I see it.
You share your life with other people and fortunately they are to your liking and of your choice, but still you have little control of them (situational) Really truly wanting that life gives you control of your thoughts when you have no control of a situation and situations are only triggers, it is how you see them that does the damage.
The same with the trip, the heat, the wait etc were only triggers, your mind chose to see them as important when they were not. Concern yes but not something for worry because there was no actual danger there. which brings us round to core beliefs again. Where did you get the core that won't let you not have control. Of your thoughts to the situation, not actually have control of the situation. We can never have total control of any situation. But we can have control of how we see it. When we can't do this then there has to be a core belief stopping it, because core beliefs control everything we do and think. So you are looking for a core belief that tells you that the relaxation and coping skills won't work because they obviously didn't but more so you are looking for the root one that says this is so. This one would come from being told any decisions you make are wrong. Is that a possibility? It could come from your Mother bulling you.
Pretty much that yes but I'm going to get technical explaining it so I want you to question everything you don't understand which is going to be hard for you to do because of the core belief that wants you to be in control. The only way you can be in control is to have a thorough knowledge of what is happening. Then it becomes clear and you can start to believe the positives you tried to build. This does work, but is going to take time. I have time.
Right now though I have plants to water. I'll be back in a couple of hours.
It takes a while to water everything. A good rain would be nice.
Humans are born with very little in memory other than that needed to breathe and pump blood. in fact, though a baby can experience it's surroundings, until it is nine days old none of it goes into memory. Then everything does. every thought at this age is a core thought. if they are repeated they become core beliefs. Crying gets attention, or doesn't is one of the first. Now a baby has nothing in it's brain to use for comparison, so everything is the truth, whether it is or not. This holds true until the child has enough in memory to make comparisons. Up to this point any core beliefs were carved in stone and came from observation only so are not yours. Ones you build by comparison are. Children unless twins have different experiences and build different cores although the first ones may be similar. Next stage is core beliefs built outside the family in relation to experiences with peers and school exposure. Now the child has things to compare thoughts too. Depending on what the core is they can be reinforced here or discarded. At this point your cores can start causing anxiety. Up to the point of comparison they don't. Those before are considered true so are treated as such. For the time being. Because some are not going to be true.
I'm going to skip ahead. Everything we do and think is considered appropriate because core beliefs say it is. The mind makes decisions based on what is appropriate. If you never challenge what is considered appropriate it stays thus. And why would you challenge a core belief since they are dictating how you think too. Some you might not like and set aside but it does no good because you believe cores, that is what cores are for. To give you direction. Positive or negative means nothing to the mind in considering appropriate. But it does treat them different.
The hippocampus is the part of the brain that sorts thoughts and passes them on to other parts of the brain, at the same time storing the thought for future reference. These stored thoughts have a code to open them that is either positive or negative, black or white, no greys. Positive thought can not open a negative code on it's own. It can have a negative thought attached to it and that negative thought can open it.
Here is where you can be having a fine day and a negative thought related to what you are doing can surface and it can have negatives attached to it. The day goes to hell right here because core beliefs are believable. They are considered appropriate. So Hippocampus receives a thought and it asks two questions, is it dangerous and has it happened before. If it is thought to be dangerous because it happened before and was thought dangerous it goes to Amygdala and Amygdala using it's own memories to instruct hypothalamus what action to take. If a trigger is new then there will be no appropriate answer to it and so a search of associated memory is made and the closest thing to it chosen as a temporary appropriate. If this is accepted and used again the next time the trigger happens it moves out of short term memory into long term and is now stored in Episodic memory and is now considered an appropriate action. It will stay that unless there is a strong reason to change.
Now all memory has a code, change any part of the memory and that code doesn't work. So what has a perfectly normal reaction stored in episodic memory changes if you add something to it and it goes to Associated memory for an answer. A normally pleasant trip changes as the situation changes. The heat, the traffic are unpleasant so are negative and need a negative thought to open them but once opened they feed back to the thought that opened them and this negative can not open pleasant thoughts because negatives can not open positives. A tiny attempt at being positive opens them but they snap shut as the negatives say this is not appropriate. The focus is on the negative and so negative is what is considered appropriate. Even if you had perfectly good positives you would not be able to open them because negative can't open them. And you are negative because that is what the focus is, which brings us back to core beliefs. What is the core belief that causes you to think negative enough that positive thought can not get through? Because Core beliefs even control attitude. All survival skills are negative because they have to be. Your mother trying to survive would be hard pressed not to become negative and thus think it appropriate. Her actions would be what her memory would say is necessary for survival but if she didn't like them she would become depressed. Necessity would drag her back to the surface only to do it all over again. She did have a tough life. Do you fear if you let your guard down it will happen to you?
Enough for now.
If you think about the number of core beliefs silently going about their work you will realize they are all subconscious till you bring them to the surface. And at that they usually only come to the surface when they do something you don't like. You are going to change that. You are going to spend the next while thinking positive when you don't need to. The next few paragraphs will tell you why. So, positives, "I am beautiful, I am intelligent, I am loved" and the most important one of all. "I love who I am" Add on any other good points that are positive. If you can, rope in your family because right now you will believe them more than you do yourself, even if you think you believe.
So here goes. Nothing can be removed from memory unless it becomes very stale and that takes decades. Best not to put it there in the first place. This can be done. Even though you have lost some of the keys to the codes for thirty year old thoughts they are still there. Memory is stored as pieces so there is no clutter and repetition. A blue flower, a blue car, a blue sky. Blue is only stored once, a code puts blue with the other memories to make an episode . If you are tired or anxious sometimes you can think I know it is blue, but what is it. This is because the neurons for the storage of blue get used more often.
Same goes for anxiety. I'm scared but don't know why. As anxiety progresses your mind thinks it is appropriate and strengthens those neurons. Sit still, don't move, don't think are all fight or flight. And they have priority because we have this hold over need to protect. Well we do, there are so many things each day that negative core beliefs protect us from. Tripping over our own feet is a good example. Silent what ifs in combination with core beliefs tell us where to put our feet to walk, all done without you noticing.
Back to the word blue. It can be used in a negative episode or a positive one depending on the code to build the episode. But you have to have a positive use for it to build a code. (blue is just an example)
A threatening lion and the big dipper have things in common from memory just put together different because they use different codes. One positive, one negative. It would be very easy to switch from one code to the other since you are already using some common neurons. Screaming at the top of your lungs takes the focus away and you don't switch from pleasure to pain. That is another thing you need to know. Pain and pleasure receptors are very close together. What blocks pain blocks pleasure. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that can open or close synapses allowing information through or blocking it. Opiates increase its production which causes a quick high as it opens gates, but a quick lasting low as it closes them.
But so also can thought. Positive will tell it to do the opposite of negative. Seratonin is an information neurotransmitter, dopamine is a mood one.
The reason it takes time to build a positive attitude and a belief in the positives is memory transfer. Every thing you do and think during the day goes into short term memory. At night it gets sorted and during REM sleep moves to long term memory if it is important.
But what is important. Some negatives for survival. But most positives get stored as having happened but not the actual happening. The reason for this is so we will do them again. If you could replay the most pleasant thing you have ever done in full sound sight and smell what need would there be to do it again. But if you can remember it was pleasant you will want to do it again. UH oh here comes a negative thought that is using pieces of the same pleasant thought to warp it to it's idea of appropriate and move it to long term memory as a negative.
This is conditioning. (over as you said, 30 years)
Back to those positive thoughts. (new conditioning) Going to bed feeling and thinking positive will counter the negative conditioning and a few positives will get stored in long term memory. That is the foot in the door that starts you on the road to recovery. Slowly every night you add more from the day which you are trying to make positive with positive thoughts. In a while you have positives that open with a positive thought.
Now when you need them they are there. And now they are believable so in the car when a negative surfaces you can block it with a well established positive that is actually believable and will do it's job like it should because it is on equal or better footing.
Now we are back to core beliefs because negative cores are the only thing that can stop you from doing this simple thing.
Which is why my signature is what it is.
This thread is simply amazing.
I would love to have Davit work on my though processes in PM, if that's ok.
Dally
I don't know if you read Sam123's posts, she has made great strides using positive thoughts.
---------- Post added at 15:36 ---------- Previous post was at 15:31 ----------
Of course jake, I spent years studying the brain and how it works in conjunction with anxiety and made some amazing discoveries about memory. Memory can really screw up thought processes. Memory can also fix it too. I won't be back on till later this evening, I have a very big garden to plant. During the day I'm only on when I stop for a break.
A positive portfolio is a very good way to put it. The mind can only use what it has. It takes time and you won't notice much change at first, but one day you notice little bothers you anymore. At this point some times negative rushes in but is easily shot down. Life doesn't change much, things just get easier and calmer.
The amygdala has two sides, both related to negatives and panic. The left does more thinking than the right. As you dilute the negative thoughts with positives hippocampus decides that although it is anxiety it isn't bad enough to panic so it sends the thoughts through the left side instead of the right, Left side is up to anxiety attacks only after that point it goes to the right which is reaction, full blown panic and all it's symptoms. Positive thoughts go through neither unless you ride a negative thought on them. These are buts.
It is a lovely party but I don't want to be here, is a positive with a negative riding on it. So it goes through the left side, the concern side. Without the negative riding the positive would have bypassed Amygdala totally and there would be no anxiety. Keep working on the positives and watch for the buts. They get easier as you get better. Notice the positive people here still have concerns and though they are negative in function they are well diluted with positives. I know it is hard to believe thinking positive can change brain chemistry but it can.
MyNameIsTerry
08-06-15, 07:40
Bump.
MyNameIsTerry
23-06-15, 04:39
Bump
MyNameIsTerry
05-07-15, 05:16
Here is a vivid memory based experience I always remember that shows how it can be powerful and until you understand about all these elements from techniques such as CBT, you wouldn't think it possible.
I went through a stage as a young lad eating McCoy's crisps. I usually ate the barbecue or cheese ones. One day I was watching Silence of the Lambs (it has just been released on video, its that long ago!) and there is a scene where they pull a body of a woman from a river. She had been in there for a while and so the skin on here back was strangely patchy. I was eating cheesy crisps and smelling them and found myself put off by the scene in the film. I found it distasteful. But more than this, I also found I didn't want to eat cheesy crisps anymore, but most specifically McCoys ones. I even didn't want to eat actual cheese for a while.
It wasn't long before I was eating real cheese again and even cheesy crisps BUT it was years before I felt like eating the McCoys ones as I kept feeling how I felt when watching that scene. I would even recall the scene itself and the woman's body.
Thats how powerful memory can be. But its not memory alone, its all the elements of the limbic system that Davit talks about. They took that scene, saw my negative emotional reaction, felt the smells & tastes and put them all together with that negative and created an event. That influenced me going forward.
I had no anxiety for probably about 12+ years after that as my anxiety disorders came when I reached 30.
Now imagine that same situation with someone who is frightened. That is a stronger negative emotion that will provoke a stronger survival response and hence a stronger event will be formed. This is what we face in our challenge for recovery, finding ways to create new positive ones hence the negative ones are no longer used yet still remain but with the added challenge of not creating more in an environment that has been tilted in faviour of the negative.
The thing is because there are more kinds of crisps but it was McCoys ,you latch onto McCoy and could even find yourself not touching anything McCoy.
Now what if it is a car but what you latch onto is driving. It could even not matter who is driving you are not getting in that car.
---------- Post added at 23:34 ---------- Previous post was at 23:25 ----------
This is the thing with core beliefs. The root might have spin off on top of spin off till it no more resembles the root. Movie>>>>> McCoy>>>>>> crisps>>>>>>Cheese. Cheese>>>>trigger, violent thoughts>>>>>>movie hidden cause. Crisps or cheese make you panic. But they are just triggers. Violence is how you see the triggers. Looks stupid but isn't because your brain can only use what it has.
MyNameIsTerry
05-07-15, 07:46
Yes, it did at first as I stopped eating the Barbecue ones for a while. No anxiety involved though, I just felt an unpleasant feeling when thinking about them and the memory would often seap in.
At first I felt it with all cheese crisps and actual cheese and it was just a matter of trying and enjoying the crisps and dismissing the memory. So, a bit of a rider situation there and what may have happening is a bit of "bulling" my way through as you call it as I saw it as a bit silly and just kept having them a few times until it went. Something inside must have been driving me to beat what it saw as an unhealthy behaviour developing.
Its a good one for panic attacks as I've read that even if you walk into a situation calm that previously caused panic, it can return. Memory again, some form of trigger whether a smell, a feeling, etc. I can remember having that when returning to work where last I had been running out of there feeling sick. It took exposure to get beyond that but back in those days I had no therapy and knew nothing about anxiety so just saw it "getting on with things", "fall off the bike, get back on the bike", etc.
MyNameIsTerry
22-07-15, 08:19
I was in a supermarket today and spotted all sorts of McCoy's crisps including ones I haven't tried before and felt that slight memory pass through. A felt the slight tug of Eugh following by positivity and wanting to eat any of them out of curiousity.
It's like how you see a big spider and for an instance there is a kind of tug on you emotions but then your strength & control takes back over.
MyNameIsTerry
03-08-15, 06:29
I've justed posted this in the "Core Beliefs" thread:
http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=168981&page=5
One of my core belief issues that I have been trying to drill down into surrounds my fatigue. However, whilst there is physical tiredness, which I believe could be due to my unhealthy sleep routine and how that is impacting on my neurotransmitters and the SNRI I take, I can sense something deeper that is a mixture of feelings & thoughts and maybe even physical sensations.
When I spent time trying to notice this in more detail I found that it was beliefs about lack of motivation, lack of future, whats the point it's all the same anyway, etc. The feelings I have with these are of some form of discomfort in my mind whereby I feel a mixture of being under pressure to do & not to do anything (ambivalence) but also a control issue. This control issue links back to avoiding all possible stimili that came about as a result of my GAD. I hadn't noticed it to this level before because because my anxiety, it was much more subtle yet still affecting my life.
Physical feelings are a mixture of head and diagphram. My head feels like something is trying to stretch in two directions and my diagphram tenses up.
I need to do more work on this but I have managed to track it back to a specific point in my past. I was always a hard working student in school and at sixth form college but towards the end of my first year I contracted pneumonia. This put me in hospital for a week after 2 trips to A&E in an ambulance (the first the doctor missed a large shadow on the xray and discharged me). I spent about another 3 weeks recovering from this as it really affecting my asthma too which wasn't the best back then. I was about to return to college when I suddenly felt like I had no energy at all and my eyes were bloodshot. I ended up off for a further 4 weeks which turned out to be a low count of platelets in my blood. I thought I had glandular fever from knowing people at college that had had that.
After this it was very hard to catch up. But something in me seemed to change. I had started drinking before this in the city centre as we all did, but I now started to have thoughts of not really caring anymore. This continued and my college work suffered for it.
Then I started work and this seemed to no longer be there. For quite some years I had drive and a very active social life. I've never been good with relationships with women, I just didn't put as much into that as some guys do and I don't know; it happens or it doesn't.
As I got more into my stride at my last company I started to to become quite motivated and much more self confident. I still had some lagging issues around motivation for certain things like exercise but once I got started I seemed to be ok, it was more keeping the routine going around my work & social life that was a problem.
I don't think this hit me particularily hard until coming up to my relapse. I returned to work and threw myself into it for a couple of years. This was ultimately negative on me but the work culture was like this; everything going wrong, fixes that needed doing now, projects already behind that need advancing, etc. I loved it at that point because I had always loved the stress of work from my early days in call centres. However, in the 12 months leading up to my relapse the cracks were showing around anxiety and I was suffering with the influence of these old core belief issues. The last 6 months of this it had intensified and I became very sick of my work, lack of direction in life and why everything seemed pointless.
I had not had any therapy and relied solely on my GP up to this point, a very bad thing with anxiety disorders! So, I wasn't understanding that I was edging closer & closer to a more powerful relapse.
This relapse did further damage by reinforcing these old beliefs over a period of time and I now need to reprogramme how I see things to tackle it or it will re-emerge throughout my future. But by spending time trying to understand how I was feeling and learning about core beliefs, I found this one going back a good 21 years now.
It seemed relevant to add this in here too as seems to be tied to a certain part of my past so memory will be playing some part in this.
Part of me is wondering whether to tackle this as a core belief issue or a memory issue or both. I'm not sure at this point. From a core belief point of view, I need to create new ones. From a memory point of view, I can't change what happened but I try to change how I view going forward to try to create new connections between recalling these times and how I think & feel about them now.
Thats trigger as it's an aged issue and will take some proving against to build a new core belief but to be honest, I can't see how I can change the memory aspect without this given it wasn't all in one specific memory but a set of them that hhave ended up reinforcing each other and the core belief that they built.
I need to tackle the fatigue issues as well as each time these are feeding those negative thoughts and reinforcing these skewed beliefs. I do know that I don't believe I can be anxiety/depression free without this as its a deep demon that will only worm it's way back in any chance it gets and I don't want to settle for a substandard life, I want to be able to live the one I want.
Terry, as an intelligent and analytical man it must be very frustrating for you to keep on searching for that elusive formula which will release you from your all-encompassing issues and allow you to lead the life that you ultimately desire and need?
I think our personalities are so influential in the way each one of us approaches the management of anxiety and OCD. I'm one of those who have tried out various therapies/meds and am now on the DIY trail. I've basically stopped searching and will try to make the best of my lot.
I appreciate that this way would not be your way but I wonder whether you are becoming more stressed by your desire to find a way forward?
Terry I really have to agree with Pulisa over this.
I worry that your intelligence is causing "overthinking" which in itself is exacerbating your OCD.
I don't say this as a criticism but out of concern for you:flowers:
Sarah
Okay, Terry, I am going to add my concerns as well, and hope it helps you as it helped me get (much) better.
I think if we were NOT sensitive and intelligent people, we wouldn't, couldn't, have become anxious and overwhelmed at times in life. What they used to call "having a nervous breakdown", but the day-to-day with OCD may also be rooted in core beliefs, as you say. As a caution, one of the best pieces of advice I received was that "it is okay to look back ... just don't stare". Particularly in the first years of recovery from a relapse, of whatever kind, we are more prone to being knocked back by negative thinking arising from digging into our past. There will be inevitable instances of mistakes made, even twists of guilt and shame and pain that make it really difficult to trust ourselves to make the right decisions in future. The memory of failures will continue to knock away at our self-esteem, making us doubt we can truly make plans work out in the end. THIS is why it doesn't do to entertain our past too much. Not only does the past not exist anymore except in memory, we need to realize that in a sense, neither do the people that we were at those times in our lives. It only makes sense to live fully in each day as it unfolds, keeping with a loose overall plan to have a better life again. And enjoying the smells, tastes, emotions of each new day.
I only came to this place because of recovery from drug abuse. I had become derailed, really, from a better place in life because of it back as far as my teens. I can certainly look back on a lot of memories from childhood on that without a doubt contributed to it. Drug addiction is an escape like any other form of OCD. The outward manifestations do not make sense to anyone else, and many of our core beliefs are so skewed, we not only think we are incapable and probably undeserving of recovery (when we are not in actual denial for years on end), but we have often come to believe, deep down, that survival without the drugs to fall back on would be impossible. This is what we're up against.
Here is where I think our paths cross, Terry ... It is imperative that we avoid relapse again, simply because our very lives depend on it. This is why you are doing your best to get to the core and ferret out the false beliefs that may lay dormant otherwise, waiting to push in the thin edge of the wedge towards another relapse, the next one undoubtedly worse than the last. Because that is truly how it works, and your fears are well placed!
But relapse is not inevitable, Terry. 20 years on I am here to tell you, no matter how powerful it is relapse has no power over us unless we engage with it. Except for an antidepressant, I have been sober that long now. I got there by simply disengaging with the "old me", altogether, and deciding what sort of person I wanted to be and doing my best to get there.
Here is what I learned when I decided to open my mind to never relapsing again. OCD is a disease, I learned, and something that will be a part of us all of our lives, and that's okay. Particularly where it touches us physically, we must, above all else, never ever engage with the OCD again. So long as we do not do that, then we haven't handed over control to the behaviours that will bring us down. Things tend to spiral out of control and it may be years before we come out of a relapse again, if ever. For me, avoiding that that means never picking up a drink again, or using a pill to bring me false calm. Ignoring what my brain tells me I used to do, how it couldn't hurt, or any of the other lies it tries to tell me. It is tougher to do this when you are more intelligent. But we must recognize that our brains are also part of the problem, or, rather, our minds. Where I come from, we say, my mind is out to get me! Lol! It's the thin edge of the wedge, because the more circumspect and introverted we become, the more involved in solving the unsolvable (I am sorry, there is no "cure"), the closer to our old obsessions we become. We outsmart ourselves, happens all the time. Don't let it happen to you, my friend. Get into your group again. Set your alarm, have some tea to wake up, and just go! Soon. The sooner the better. We care about you, Terry, and so do they. xx
Marie
I think if we were NOT sensitive and intelligent people, we wouldn't, couldn't, have become anxious and overwhelmed at times in life. What they used to call "having a nervous breakdown", but the day-to-day with OCD may also be rooted in core beliefs, as you say. As a caution, one of the best pieces of advice I received was that "it is okay to look back ... just don't stare". Particularly in the first years of recovery from a relapse, of whatever kind, we are more prone to being knocked back by negative thinking arising from digging into our past. There will be inevitable instances of mistakes made, even twists of guilt and shame and pain that make it really difficult to trust ourselves to make the right decisions in future. The memory of failures will continue to knock away at our self-esteem, making us doubt we can truly make plans work out in the end. THIS is why it doesn't do to entertain our past too much. Not only does the past not exist anymore except in memory, we need to realize that in a sense, neither do the people that we were at those times in our lives. It only makes sense to live fully in each day as it unfolds, keeping with a loose overall plan to have a better life again. And enjoying the smells, tastes, emotions of each new day.
I couldn't agree with this more. You said it better than I ever could have. Some of this takes working on acceptance of the past. I don't know a lot about core beliefs, to be honest a lot of the wordiness of the posts turned me off :blush: I'm more of a straight-forward learner. I don't mean any offense by that, as they were really intelligent and informative posts. But I wonder if part of changing your core beliefs requires some acceptance of these beliefs for what they are and why they are there in the first place. It's not giving up, but like Marie said, looking at the past but not staring at it. If you focus too much and analyze your behaviors constantly, you miss out on the present. And that's all we really have, right? So by working towards acceptance, you kind of cut yourself some slack with these things. It's just part of being human - we aren't perfect.
:hugs:
Well said to all of you lovely people:hugs:
Excellent posts from the heart from you both and written purely out of deep concern.
teapotsister
08-08-15, 07:33
Mynameisterry, I think you are on track for finding answers. Overthinking...I don't believe that is what you are doing. You are journaling, using these boards, which helps you get your thoughts to the surface. And as you do this, your core beliefs start coming to the surface as well. But it takes time. Just like it takes a while for an overweight person to undo all the bad eating thoughts and habits, it is the same for us. It's not really a dwelling on the past. It's more specific than that. You are unraveling the ideas/belief systems to find your core beliefs and coming to conclusions which will motivate you with knowing the answers. It's so freeing to get to a core belief and realize it's directed scenarios that overloaded your senses. Overthinking and journaling are two very different things. Good on you for sorting like this. I wish I could compile this information from Davit in a book. This is excellent!!
Personally I find this all too deep and long winded.
It maybe well researched but to the ordinary person with mental health issues they need a simpler form to understand how they could get better and as stated many of us know what we should be doing but for one reason or another keep finding stumbling blocks.
I think that the conclusions are the same whether you choose to keep things as simple as possible or whether you decide to follow a more complex path.
teapotsister
09-08-15, 04:12
Sorry to say, but the things that brought us to the point of panic were not easy. Why would unravellling it all be easy? This is not McDonalds drive thru. You cant do quick and expect healthy results, unless you want a lobotomy! Oh wait... that isn't very healthy either, is it? Few find the desire to follow the path less travelled. If you say it can't be done, you are right. Because can't means WON'T. But if you can imagine how you will feel when you are better, you might just jump on a more difficult path and be able to help others who are stuck in the same situation! Wow! Wouldn't that be fantastic to help others, rather than accept that you are doomed? Brilliant idea.
I don't think anybody suggested Terry stop working on things ... it's all about balance.
Sorry to say, but the things that brought us to the point of panic were not easy. Why would unravellling it all be easy? This is not McDonalds drive thru. You cant do quick and expect healthy results, unless you want a lobotomy! Oh wait... that isn't very healthy either, is it? Few find the desire to follow the path less travelled. If you say it can't be done, you are right. Because can't means WON'T. But if you can imagine how you will feel when you are better, you might just jump on a more difficult path and be able to help others who are stuck in the same situation! Wow! Wouldn't that be fantastic to help others, rather than accept that you are doomed? Brilliant idea.
I think that there is a difference between "easy" and "uncomplicated". I don't believe anyone mentioned that they accepted that they were "doomed"? I've never been to a McDonald's drive-thru and doubt I would ever want to-I prefer a well balanced approach to most things, including anxiety management
teapotsister
09-08-15, 20:01
The only good thing at McDonald's is The Minions!! ��
Terry you need Minions!!
I might be dumb, but can lift heavy things. But what is Minîons:blush:
Mynameisterry, I think you are on track for finding answers. Overthinking...I don't believe that is what you are doing. You are journaling, using these boards, which helps you get your thoughts to the surface. And as you do this, your core beliefs start coming to the surface as well. But it takes time. Just like it takes a while for an overweight person to undo all the bad eating thoughts and habits, it is the same for us. It's not really a dwelling on the past. It's more specific than that. You are unraveling the ideas/belief systems to find your core beliefs and coming to conclusions which will motivate you with knowing the answers. It's so freeing to get to a core belief and realize it's directed scenarios that overloaded your senses. Overthinking and journaling are two very different things. Good on you for sorting like this. I wish I could compile this information from Davit in a book. This is excellent!!
Welcome 1inpeace, :welcome:
Welcome back! Hope you get more benefit from NMP this time around.
MyNameIsTerry
12-08-15, 05:39
Personally I find this all too deep and long winded.
It maybe well researched but to the ordinary person with mental health issues they need a simpler form to understand how they could get better and as stated many of us know what we should be doing but for one reason or another keep finding stumbling blocks.
Yes, it's not for everyone. In most cases a therapist will tell you just what you need to know to keep you on track. The therapist will be trained in detail like this to translate the bits that are relevant to those stumbling blocks but the trouble seems to be the quality of the therapy we are having under IAPT so information can be useful.
Some people prefer small segments, others like a few of us on these threads like to learn a bit more. I'm a technical person by trade so my personality fits with detail like this and did long before my anxiety disorders started but some people find it overwhelming.
But then...it's just a thread on a forum and no one needs to read it or follow it if they do not find it beneficial to them.
---------- Post added at 05:39 ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 ----------
I’ve left this alone until now so this is really more one big reply so forgive me if things are out of synch or in the wrong place.
You have no need to worry about me, I was like this before and I’m not hunting for anything because the issues I speak about have been something I have be considering for a while, some of them even date back to the ineffective therapy I had which didn’t help me much.
This may come across as negative to some or all of you but that is not the intention because I appreciate the concern and time taken to reply but I think in writing some of these previous posts, I may have given the wrong impression. I’m not obsessively trying to understand myself, more adding things I have already done or adding partial conclusions with the benefit of a new understanding to get to something more comprehensive. Then I walk away and come back to it when needed.
Terry, as an intelligent and analytical man it must be very frustrating for you to keep on searching for that elusive formula which will release you from your all-encompassing issues and allow you to lead the life that you ultimately desire and need?
I think our personalities are so influential in the way each one of us approaches the management of anxiety and OCD. I'm one of those who have tried out various therapies/meds and am now on the DIY trail. I've basically stopped searching and will try to make the best of my lot.
I appreciate that this way would not be your way but I wonder whether you are becoming more stressed by your desire to find a way forward?
That’s not the case for me, 10 minutes after writing that I was busy doing something else and didn’t think about it for days. It is something I need to address going forward otherwise relapse is inevitable and I learnt a big lesson by not doing this the first time around.
There is no extra stress involved for me, quite the opposite as I find it helps me to understand my issues. It can help to write things down and get it out of your head to avoid overthinking. It’s not frustrating either, it releases frustration for me because it provides those eureka moments.
I’m certainly not searching for “cures”. I did that years ago and learnt that there is no such thing, only hard work and a structured recovery. I own 1 book on Mindfulness and 1 from a “guru”, the latter being one of my lessons in why you shouldn’t search. I don’t search for others and a few books I would consider as add-ons to what I already have but not me searching for something that works because I don’t believe the previous one does. I stopped that behaviour years ago.
So, it’s not a case of psychoanalysing, it’s using CBT tools to look for flawed thinking areas so I can work on them. The alternate is what I did the first time around which was part of my downfall and relapse.
I did have 12 sessions of CBT after 5 sessions of Guided Self Help. I learned very little and I would equate the therapy to little more than the former treatment as so little was explained to me. I hit stumbling blocks and brick walls and it seemed to have no answers other than “just keep trying”. So, I left CBT with a very negative attitude about it all. I was the same when I joined NMP but I had softened a little from the sessions with the charity I joined. Later on I have to come to understand that my thinking was flawed on CBT because I never really had any of it. My therapist did some very basic work with my thoughts and spent the rest of it trying to get me to take up more activities. This was never really going to work as much of those activities had brick walls already in front of them because of my thinking at the time. I had more success talking to fellow sufferers at the charity and hence why I joined NMP later when I couldn’t access them anymore, although I was further on and wanted to help too as that helps me.
Thanks for the concern.
Terry I really have to agree with Pulisa over this.
I worry that your intelligence is causing "overthinking" which in itself is exacerbating your OCD.
I don't say this as a criticism but out of concern for you:flowers:
Sarah
No, Sarah. There is no impact on my OCD from this. My OCD can be impacted by increased anxiety levels but doing this has no such effect on me.
The level of detail in these threads is miniscule when compared to what I would be doing in my line of work so I’m used to it. I do have to keep a check on myself because of the core belief issues that were developed between my first breakdown and later relapse, but I’m not finding this has that impact because I am doing it because I want to do it, not because I have to do it and there is the difference.
Thanks for the concern.
Okay, Terry, I am going to add my concerns as well, and hope it helps you as it helped me get (much) better.
I think if we were NOT sensitive and intelligent people, we wouldn't, couldn't, have become anxious and overwhelmed at times in life. What they used to call "having a nervous breakdown", but the day-to-day with OCD may also be rooted in core beliefs, as you say. As a caution, one of the best pieces of advice I received was that "it is okay to look back ... just don't stare". Particularly in the first years of recovery from a relapse, of whatever kind, we are more prone to being knocked back by negative thinking arising from digging into our past. There will be inevitable instances of mistakes made, even twists of guilt and shame and pain that make it really difficult to trust ourselves to make the right decisions in future. The memory of failures will continue to knock away at our self-esteem, making us doubt we can truly make plans work out in the end. THIS is why it doesn't do to entertain our past too much. Not only does the past not exist anymore except in memory, we need to realize that in a sense, neither do the people that we were at those times in our lives. It only makes sense to live fully in each day as it unfolds, keeping with a loose overall plan to have a better life again. And enjoying the smells, tastes, emotions of each new day.
I only came to this place because of recovery from drug abuse. I had become derailed, really, from a better place in life because of it back as far as my teens. I can certainly look back on a lot of memories from childhood on that without a doubt contributed to it. Drug addiction is an escape like any other form of OCD. The outward manifestations do not make sense to anyone else, and many of our core beliefs are so skewed, we not only think we are incapable and probably undeserving of recovery (when we are not in actual denial for years on end), but we have often come to believe, deep down, that survival without the drugs to fall back on would be impossible. This is what we're up against.
Here is where I think our paths cross, Terry ... It is imperative that we avoid relapse again, simply because our very lives depend on it. This is why you are doing your best to get to the core and ferret out the false beliefs that may lay dormant otherwise, waiting to push in the thin edge of the wedge towards another relapse, the next one undoubtedly worse than the last. Because that is truly how it works, and your fears are well placed!
But relapse is not inevitable, Terry. 20 years on I am here to tell you, no matter how powerful it is relapse has no power over us unless we engage with it. Except for an antidepressant, I have been sober that long now. I got there by simply disengaging with the "old me", altogether, and deciding what sort of person I wanted to be and doing my best to get there.
Here is what I learned when I decided to open my mind to never relapsing again. OCD is a disease, I learned, and something that will be a part of us all of our lives, and that's okay. Particularly where it touches us physically, we must, above all else, never ever engage with the OCD again. So long as we do not do that, then we haven't handed over control to the behaviours that will bring us down. Things tend to spiral out of control and it may be years before we come out of a relapse again, if ever. For me, avoiding that that means never picking up a drink again, or using a pill to bring me false calm. Ignoring what my brain tells me I used to do, how it couldn't hurt, or any of the other lies it tries to tell me. It is tougher to do this when you are more intelligent. But we must recognize that our brains are also part of the problem, or, rather, our minds. Where I come from, we say, my mind is out to get me! Lol! It's the thin edge of the wedge, because the more circumspect and introverted we become, the more involved in solving the unsolvable (I am sorry, there is no "cure"), the closer to our old obsessions we become. We outsmart ourselves, happens all the time. Don't let it happen to you, my friend. Get into your group again. Set your alarm, have some tea to wake up, and just go! Soon. The sooner the better. We care about you, Terry, and so do they. xx
Marie
I do appreciate your concern, Marie but you know I don’t agree when it comes to whether 100% recovery is possible or not. My dad suffered depression for 2 years in his thirties and recovered fully and has had 40 good years since. How can I deny that he achieved that? So, whilst I respect your belief (and others) I will never agree with it as I have living proof it can be achieved telling me that it can be done. Also, I only had a level of OCD that interrupted my life once I started the adrenaline dose of Duloxetine. Prior to that I had no compulsions on a regular basis and even went years in my adulthood where I lost the ones from childhood. I went through 4 years & more of GAD without compulsions and within days of starting that dose, it happened and I was doing it hundreds of times a day. That’s no coincidence. I never suffered that on Citalopram in over 3 years, not once. I’ve dug myself out of many compulsions when in actual fact simply stopping this med might have achieved the same.
Obsessional thinking styles were forming prior to this and this med made them a hell of a lot worse but I recognise they need resolving and that’s where things like these core beliefs need some work. I have no interest in resolving the past and as I’ve already said I consider that to be a previous life in many respects and irrelevant. But I see no issue in trying to understand a negative thinking style and backtracking as long as that doesn’t affect my health. Linking that back in a matter of minutes and then pushing onto something pleasurable 10 minutes later means I’m not dwelling or searching or anything else. I’m not someone who does dwell on the past much and thesedays I don’t really care about mistakes I’ve made because I’m not that person anymore and the people involved mean nothing to me either.
I won’t deny that I have obsessional tendencies that need tackling but not in the way they are being thought of here. I’ve done the self help groups though and as you rightly say, you have to be careful about your focus on things. For me obsession is more based on the here & now and practicalities than deeper concepts or memories. Looking for something to aid my health can be problematic because I have options to weigh up and costs to consider, but when I look at something like my beliefs I don’t get caught up in that at all unlike I would have done if you knew me say 5 years ago when I hadn’t learnt about my disorders.
Thanks for the concern.
I couldn't agree with this more. You said it better than I ever could have. Some of this takes working on acceptance of the past. I don't know a lot about core beliefs, to be honest a lot of the wordiness of the posts turned me off :blush: I'm more of a straight-forward learner. I don't mean any offense by that, as they were really intelligent and informative posts. But I wonder if part of changing your core beliefs requires some acceptance of these beliefs for what they are and why they are there in the first place. It's not giving up, but like Marie said, looking at the past but not staring at it. If you focus too much and analyze your behaviors constantly, you miss out on the present. And that's all we really have, right? So by working towards acceptance, you kind of cut yourself some slack with these things. It's just part of being human - we aren't perfect.
:hugs:
Yes, you have accept the flaws, something I did ages ago. For me though, this is an exercise in understanding and once that exercise is over I will put it down and come back to it another time to look at ways to resolve things. So, what I have posted is not an overthinking exercise, it occurred over a period of time.
To me the past where these things occurred are like another life. I cut all ties with people other than family & GF and the people that have asked if I want to get involved in things have been told I’m not interested because I’ve moved on. The issues inside still need sorting out to move forward or anxiety will remain but the past is very much gone to me and I live day-to-day.
Thanks for the concern.
written purely out of deep concern.
I thank people for their concern but there really is no need, I’m the same person I was yesterday, last week, 6 months ago, etc. I’m not sure where this is coming from because I have always been about detail ever since I joined NMP and that’s because of my personality which was there long before anxiety was without any impact. It’s true that obsessive behaviour has to be watched and I have areas that need changing but I can assure everyone that my involvement in these threads has no connection to my issues.
Thanks for the concern.
Mynameisterry, I think you are on track for finding answers. Overthinking...I don't believe that is what you are doing. You are journaling, using these boards, which helps you get your thoughts to the surface. And as you do this, your core beliefs start coming to the surface as well. But it takes time. Just like it takes a while for an overweight person to undo all the bad eating thoughts and habits, it is the same for us. It's not really a dwelling on the past. It's more specific than that. You are unraveling the ideas/belief systems to find your core beliefs and coming to conclusions which will motivate you with knowing the answers. It's so freeing to get to a core belief and realize it's directed scenarios that overloaded your senses. Overthinking and journaling are two very different things. Good on you for sorting like this. I wish I could compile this information from Davit in a book. This is excellent!!
I didn’t look at it as journaling, more what was encouraged to do by the charity and what I have read on a psychology website that has a lot of excellent resources. I guess it probably comes across that way with me writing it as opposed to using a worksheet to work it through as I would have been better doing.
I have had some moments where I’ve found something has just slotted into place. I’ve found that moment of clarity inspiring. Changing it is a whole harder problem that I can’t say I am near yet but if I returned to work right now with some of these negative thinking styles in play, I will sink again. I learned that with my mistakes the first time around.
Thanks for the concern.
Terry, you don't have to justify yourself for any of your views or thoughts. You have assured us that you are fine and dealing with life on a day-to-day basis which is the best we can all do.
I don't mean to put you in the virtual dock here but have you considered reducing/withdrawing from your duloxetine? I know it's a big step and not one you would want to take without a specialised medical opinion but it may be something which you could think about at some stage? Please don't feel obliged to reply on this one.
Nothing to do with any of the above.....My memory today is farked,I forgot where I parked my car,put my old address on forms,çould not remember my mobile number and got lost driving home.
Bloody shocker ôf a day.....I also left the iron on......grrrr.
Sorry but it is about memory....lol
As far as I am concerned the only person who broke the rules was the Canadian gentleman, who wished us all dead,and by overstepping the mark,consequently got banned, and for that reason alone I don't feel it right he should have his original posts continuously bumped up (is that the right expression).This is a purely personal point of view so I think I will leave it at that.
MyNameIsTerry
12-08-15, 10:48
The topic is memory based on information provided by someone who is no longer here. The information provided could be useful to some people, I know I have found it useful.
Like any thread on a public forum, there is no obligation to read them.
Nothing is inflammatory. The issue seems to be the name on the first post. Regardless of anything that had occurred I regard myself mature enough to use the thread in the spirit it was created for.
Thanks for taking the time to assure us that you are doing well, it's hard to tell over internet when all we have is written words without the other layers of conversation. I mistakenly interpreted it as you being frustrated, so I apologize. Glad you are ok :)
MyNameIsTerry
17-08-15, 08:44
Terry, you don't have to justify yourself for any of your views or thoughts. You have assured us that you are fine and dealing with life on a day-to-day basis which is the best we can all do.
I don't mean to put you in the virtual dock here but have you considered reducing/withdrawing from your duloxetine? I know it's a big step and not one you would want to take without a specialised medical opinion but it may be something which you could think about at some stage? Please don't feel obliged to reply on this one.
Thats ok, I don't mind answering that.
Yes, it's on the list of things to work through. The trouble is, my GP works PM's which is a problem with my current sleep cycle issues unless I fancy a 48 hour day. So, I had decided to try my best to change this pattern and battle the obsessiveness around it first, then see him and talk about coming off this in favour of something else. What that will be, I have no idea and I know it may be a rough journey hence trying to do some of this now as it may be even harder with side effects windows as both I have tried so far made me so much worse intially that I spent months clawing my way back to how bad I was when I asked for help! :doh:
Specialist opinion is a no chance with my GP. He hasn't got a clue. I'm not sure whether to push for that or just do what should have been done before and stay away from SNRI's and just try another SSRI or the previous one. It's difficult with a GP who clearly has about as much knowledge as my postman!
Your quack sounds like mine(or was)I was told he was good,what a joke I told him to f...off in farsi and walked out.The receptionist asked for payment well I told her to f..off also.
I think I will make an appointment at my dogs Vet,at least he is good and has good memory..lol:D
MyNameIsTerry
17-08-15, 09:08
Thats true, Petra, my doggies vets are amazing. He gets far better care than I do :D...although his doc prefers a thermometer up the bottie and I'm not sure I would be up for that! :D
Sometimes I wonder about a private health service overhere, it would be bad for so many reasons, but at least our GP's could be view as on performance related pay...GP's pretty much act as their own NHS overhere. The local trusts used to govern it all but now we have CQC's which are made up of people including GP's! :doh:
I am in private health,and pay $500 a month,a quacks visit is anything from $60 upwards bloody thieves.We do have bulk billing where medicare pays the GPs but they re few and far between.This government is going down the American health route,where if you do not have health coverage and got sick pity help you....grrrr
I think our local private GP charges about £60 for an appointment (not that I've ever used him)
I've thrown caution to the wind and have come off escitalopram. Surprisingly I feel a lot better agitation-wise and it's great to no longer be chronically constipated!:DThis morning I went into a meeting with the bigwigs from a major care home provider in order to fight for justice for my late father. I did OK despite the physical demons of anxiety raining down on me eventually resulting in me shaking uncontrollably at one stage but I hope they didn't notice:D.
I just wonder whether you would consider going meds-free, Terry? I know it's a huge decision and it could very well soon go t*ts-up for me but I'm about 2 months down the road now and feel OK. I don't think SSRIs have ever suited me due to the agitation I get.
Petra, I'd rather go to see my vet rather than the GP! They are better qualified with a superior bedside manner AND you can mostly get an appointment on the same day!:D
Pulisa, that must have put you under extreme stress. Can you have an easier day tomorrow and maybe give yourself a treat.?
Your Dad would have been very proud of you for what you are doing. I would do the same if I was in your shoes.
Make sure you get some rest if you can. I know your life is hectic, but please look after you too. :hugs:
Omg Pulisa I thought I was the only one who was chronically constipated with Escitalopram!! Haha, sorry for TMI and being off-topic, but I have had to up my fiber intake exponentially with this and happened last time I was on it too.
MyNameIsTerry
18-08-15, 04:16
I think our local private GP charges about £60 for an appointment (not that I've ever used him)
I've thrown caution to the wind and have come off escitalopram. Surprisingly I feel a lot better agitation-wise and it's great to no longer be chronically constipated!:DThis morning I went into a meeting with the bigwigs from a major care home provider in order to fight for justice for my late father. I did OK despite the physical demons of anxiety raining down on me eventually resulting in me shaking uncontrollably at one stage but I hope they didn't notice:D.
I just wonder whether you would consider going meds-free, Terry? I know it's a huge decision and it could very well soon go t*ts-up for me but I'm about 2 months down the road now and feel OK. I don't think SSRIs have ever suited me due to the agitation I get.
Petra, I'd rather go to see my vet rather than the GP! They are better qualified with a superior bedside manner AND you can mostly get an appointment on the same day!:D
I don't know about meds free. This experience was been a bad one and I don't know how much damage it has done so coming off these could make things change in a good or bad way as it's been years. That may mean some support with meds as therapy is a no-go around here other than private. There is always a period between that could be tried to see what happens.
I think med free would mean a load more supplementation as my diet is not the best and thats a hard one to change in our house.
Well done for getting through the the meeting. Are you doing it all alone or do you have a solicitor defending you in them? I found I would be shaky at first in the works meetings but then I would get into my stride and just end up with elevated anxiety.
There is no way on earth I would pay a private fee to see my GP. I don't think they offer it but the standard or service wouldn't be justifying anything over a pound. I'm completely against the GP plans to charge £10 a visit too...I don't believe they are all worth it and besides, they get paid! :doh:
I find the vet is brilliant. I find the dentist is brilliant. I find GP's...lack lustre at best.
Omg Pulisa I thought I was the only one who was chronically constipated with Escitalopram!! Haha, sorry for TMI and being off-topic, but I have had to up my fiber intake exponentially with this and happened last time I was on it too.
Believe me it is so great to be able to "produce" without having to take those revolting sachets of gunge (movicol) and also my chronic fissure is finally under control! It's truly liberating!:D
MyNameIsTerry
18-08-15, 08:11
I think I've seen a side of you I didn't expect :D
It's not much fun with those side effects. Food can have a very opposite effect on me at times :blush:
I don't know about meds free. This experience was been a bad one and I don't know how much damage it has done so coming off these could make things change in a good or bad way as it's been years. That may mean some support with meds as therapy is a no-go around here other than private. There is always a period between that could be tried to see what happens.
I think med free would mean a load more supplementation as my diet is not the best and thats a hard one to change in our house.
Well done for getting through the the meeting. Are you doing it all alone or do you have a solicitor defending you in them? I found I would be shaky at first in the works meetings but then I would get into my stride and just end up with elevated anxiety.
There is no way on earth I would pay a private fee to see my GP. I don't think they offer it but the standard or service wouldn't be justifying anything over a pound. I'm completely against the GP plans to charge £10 a visit too...I don't believe they are all worth it and besides, they get paid! :doh:
I find the vet is brilliant. I find the dentist is brilliant. I find GP's...lack lustre at best.
My sister and I have gone it alone for just under a year now with no legal support. Yesterday was the final safeguarding meeting and I went in on my own as the care home company had already issued an unreserved apology but there were still issues to resolve. The meeting still lasted for 2 and a half hours though but it went very well for us and major changes have been made throughout my county for future cases such as my Dad's. The company is a major care home provider but we got hold of crucial information to floor them. Just yay..
Terry, I do appreciate that there is so much to consider with meds. I don't know how things will pan out with me as I know how things can go and I need to stay well for my family who rely on me to support them through life. I think I said before that my daughter came down from 60 to 30mg
of duloxetine with no problems but obviously that's just her experience. It's a hard decision and you need the best advice available which I know is not easy to find!
Pulisa, glad the plumbing is working better now :D You know what, I know it can be scary to go off medications and want to stay well, but it sounds like you have really done a lot outside of medications to help. You really are well-versed in ways to cope and challenge your thoughts (from what I've seen on here) so maybe see if you can trust yourself to know what to do when blips pop up.
Thanks swgrl09. I think for me the agitation symptoms have scared me the most and have made me totally unable to function at my worst which as a carer was just terrifying. I hope I have developed some skills to help me cope with agitation now but I'm aware that I need to look after myself in order to keep myself mentally well.
Two and a half hours!!! How on earth did you manage to get through that? :ohmy:
Two and a half hours!!! How on earth did you manage to get through that? :ohmy:
I just let the symptoms flow through me. It was very hard to concentrate on what was being said though. I did feel physically ill for the rest of the day but hey ho, I had to get through the meeting and did!
This process has been going on for just under a year now but I think this is the end of the safeguarding process. What happens next is up to my sister and I.
Carnation, I think the strength comes from somewhere-I'd like to think that my Dad was looking after me but he didn't believe in an afterlife so that one's out the window:D
Neither did mine Pulisa, but I still talk to him. :wacko:
MyNameIsTerry
19-08-15, 05:04
Well done for sticking it out, pulisa. It's tough but its so worth it. Those guys would have been looking to weasel out through any method including putting pressure on you over these months to save themselves so it's no mean feat to go through. You've done well, your dad would be very proud of you both for "taking on the man" and winning.
I think I will remember you for next time I have such a battle...and bring you in. :D
I went through monthly meetings with my employers and sometimes there were arguments. Then I had to go through all the paperwork and how they "adjusted" it after I had signed the documents which was not good for me at the time. Then all the capability hearings and then my grievence about them. It was all a load of hassle I didn't need and the meetings were usually a few hours when they were formal. I found the initial few very hard but they wouldn't even give me a weeks grace on the first one when I was struggling badly with side effects which I later found out was because they were behind at their end! So, I think back to that and remember how much that affected me and those many months I was far more stressed than I should have been. On that basis, to go through all of that on top of a berievement and to come off your meds and keep going is a great achievement and I expect it will be easilier going forward and I hope this extra monkey off your back will allow you more breathing space to keep working on things.
Thank you Terry. Formal meetings are so daunting for me. I could never be a Boardroom Warrior!:D
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