View Full Version : Addicted I know
Petersmith2015
03-06-15, 20:02
If I have been on 2mg twice a day for 8 years.
I am addicted but am I right in thinking it's probably not having any effect? As it doesn't seem to be at all
Hi I have been taking 4 to 5 mg diazepam for approx 15 years. On the odd occasion I have taken slightly more if anxiety bad. I am now starting to cut down as hate being addicted which I'm sure I am after all this time. I am trying to take 4mg every other day which someone on here recommended as it was what worked best for them. Others say that v gradual reduction is best.It will still be having an effect on you however like me it isn't as noticeable after such a time. I think we will notice it when we try to cut down.I have only just started & didn't take any yesterday. I have taken 4mg today. I think we are quite lucky as most people taking these for years have to take more & more. Are you thinking of cutting down & eventually getting off them ?
Hi both of you
I too have been on diazepam for a number of years (5).
Just 2 mg a day. Never craved it or increased it and had it on repeat prescription so just continued taking it. Like you it does nothing for me. Can't even tell I've taken it!
However earlier this year I started to reduce by biting it in half and taking 1 mg a day that's when it all went wrong. I am well and truly addicted. Its actually on my Dr screen that I am a benzodiazepine addict!!!! Great eh?
Me who does drink alcohol, never smoked a cigarette in my life and try to eat healthy am an addict:-(
My p doc has put me on Pregabalin to try help me get off it. I've started a thread on the Pregabalin board. It's early days but I hope one day to be off it.
Just be careful and do it slowly. Don't miss a day, take the same amount each day but gradually reduce over a 2 week period wait till se go then try small reduction again.
Please don't rush.
Take your time and do it at your own speed.
Let's hope we can all get off this stuff!!
Xx
---------- Post added at 10:43 ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 ----------
Meant to say doesn't drink alcohol :D
Damn mobile phone texting!!!
Petersmith2015
04-06-15, 13:33
my issue is I am very low right now, and I am not getting any relief, the anxiety is causing tension and pain. I want to effectively know if I need to break what dose I can take as the doctors are useless, they just say "well you should be okay on 2x2mg 3times a day" or whatever...
If only we could turn back the clock & never have started on diazepam. I think that I am going to just cut a quarter off for a few weeks i.e. take 3 3/4 instead of 4 mg & see how that feels. I think as we are on small dosage it means that we need to cut in tiny amounts. I also have found that I need to make sure I eat regularly as if blood sugar drops it starts anxiety as the symptoms are so similar - jelly legs, shaky , dizzy etc. V important for us with anxiety to remember that as we only need one symptom & we are off into full blown anxiety attack.
---------- Post added at 14:18 ---------- Previous post was at 14:12 ----------
Petersmith2015 I would suggest you cut a tiny bit off the tablet you take at your strongest part of the day. In other words if you usually feel at your best at lunchtime do it then.Keep in touch & I know what you mean about feeling low !! It is a battle however battles can be won even if its one step forward & two back - we just step forward again. A tennis player can come back from 2 sets down & win the match.We can win !!!!
---------- Post added at 14:20 ---------- Previous post was at 14:18 ----------
Thank you Michelle! :)
Petersmith2015
08-06-15, 12:42
I hit rock bottom wednesday last week, the anxiety and the pain got to much, I cannot sleep, I am vague, numb but so alert its unbelievable, searching for something to grab onto, I want to work at this, I have read some much, learnt so many techniques. Meditation, I am trying, but some many weird youtube videos with spa sounds. Anyone suggest any audio books i can listen to.... I have been told my meds are not working as I have been on them eight years, the doctor I saw last week was incredibly shocked that I had been on them so long, and obviously not working. I was on citilopram , then sertraline. Scared of days, and scared of the pain the anxiety makes.
I downloaded an audio book by Dr Clare Weekes called Hope & Help for Your Nerves. Once you get over the fact that she sounds slightly like Dame Edna you will find her v good. Lots of people mention her on here. I found it on iTunes.
NinjaKitty
08-06-15, 13:51
I've been on 5mg 3 times a day for over 3 years now and this is my 3rd time on diazepam (valium) and I have went through 2 withdrawals after being on high doses for long periods of time, I luckily used the Ashton method to withdraw and was fine but as my body became more used to the med the higher the dose I needed for my anxiety.
Many people are on the for very very long periods of time and need to either come off them or up-dose if they want to, if you feel the diazepam isn't helping and you want to updose you should se you Dr or if you feel it is no good weaning off slowly and aybe trying a different med would be a benefit to you. This is just my thought as it is what I do time from time especially Benzos and other easily addictive meds.
I hope you find the Best route to take.
Kitty xx
Petersmith2015
08-06-15, 14:01
sounds like you know what you are talking about I have pm'd you.
Hello
I was addicted to benzos, you can be even in you're only on a small dosage. Come off them veeeeeery slowly, there is no hurry.
I was in treatment to help me give them up. I was made to follow an exercise routine to help.
Good luck x
---------- Post added at 13:45 ---------- Previous post was at 13:41 ----------
I haven't taken any benzos for 12 years.
If I feel nervous I take Dr Stuarts Tranquillity Tea :) and I find listening to Claire Weekes very helpfull too
im gonna word this as best as I can but im shaking my head in disbelief at people talking about doses off 2mg and calling themselves addicts and take your time coming off them and all that you do realise your 2mg especially if been on it a while is about as effective as a hubba bubba chewing gum
if I could i pull a carp out the canal and slap you all round the face with it I would!!!
do you lot get drunk off a can of bass shandy:lac:
someone mentioned 15mg a day! yes now were talking:yesyes: that I could agree was a little bit of dependency but 2-5mg a day your not gonna have some kind of seizure if you stop...try going on some of these drug forums and read what a proper addict is and they still function "normal" lifes
Petersmith2015
08-06-15, 16:59
I appreciate the bluntness of your reply, but when I have dropped it I have had issues... can you tell me what your comments are based on please. sorry I didnt mean to offend.
NinjaKitty
09-06-15, 11:18
im gonna word this as best as I can but im shaking my head in disbelief at people talking about doses off 2mg and calling themselves addicts and take your time coming off them and all that you do realise your 2mg especially if been on it a while is about as effective as a hubba bubba chewing gum
if I could i pull a carp out the canal and slap you all round the face with it I would!!!
do you lot get drunk off a can of bass shandy:lac:
someone mentioned 15mg a day! yes now were talking:yesyes: that I could agree was a little bit of dependency but 2-5mg a day your not gonna have some kind of seizure if you stop...try going on some of these drug forums and read what a proper addict is and they still function "normal" lifes
To be honest your reply wasn't even worth putting on as you obviously have no idea of benzo addiction even at small doses 2mg 2x a day for years causes dependancy and the need for more and withdrawal from small ammounts can be just as horrible as from large ammounts........ 2mg or 5mg a day makes no difference what doseage you are on benzo withdrawal can be horrible regardless.... possibly you should look into that further before replying in a childish and uncaring manner.
End of story
Petersmith2015
09-06-15, 11:20
:-) appreciated comment. we all are supposed to care about each other.
ninjakitty ive done it all ive come off it all.......so peter try going down to 2mg a day for a bit then stop put up with a few days of feeling shit its all fuelled by your own anxiety anyway and 70% youve pre empted that theres going to be a problem
the dose your on probably isn't doing much anyway but you "THINK" it is
NinjaKitty
09-06-15, 16:12
OHWELL123, Ihave came of benzos 3 times at different strengths it should alll be done carefully and how you feel you can cope with it regardless of the dosage, in all my years suffering from this and taking the medication I take on and off I ahve a good point of view and a sensible attitude when people ask for advise..... also my previous career was medically high so I just try and help some people with the extensive knowledge that I have degrees in pharmacology come in hand now and then!!!
In all honesty nobody here should tell him exactly what to do that is down to a dr or a psychiatrist but considering some people have came on and off high/low/medium doses more than once we are entitled to give him our opinion and help and guidance where necessary
NinjaKitty
You are absolutely right. Apart from me having been through benzo withdrawal my best friend is a drugs therapist, she became a therapist after years of addiction. She has worked in the field for over 20 years and is very respected. She has helped hundreds of people and she always tells me that unfortunately there is a lot of ignorance about addiction, tolerance to medication, etc. If this ignorance did not exist doctors, for one, would be a lot more careful
It really is a shame when people have too little information. You will notice the 2mg has a score. You can break it in half because for some people 2mg is more than enough. It is for me. And one Guiness is enough for me. Other meds I can take four times max dose with little effect but not beer or benzo's
I hope your not mixing that guiness with that benzo Davit...and having a good time:yesyes:
Valium is a very useful drug. But is highly addictive if not taken as prescribed and with care.
One dose...even only 2mg, will give effect for 4 hours but the chemical drug will stay in the body for more than 8 DAYS!!!!
SO..if you take another dose within 8 days your ur body is never without the drug and tolerance addiction builds up.
Withdrawal symptoms can occur on any dose even 2mg prn
Valium has a 24 hour half life but the metabolites it breaks down to last longer. They do nothing for anxiety though. It gets broken down by the p450 enzyme in your liver. If it competes with other drugs using this enzyme it takes longer. Some times much longer.
Dependence depends on the person since technically valium is not chemically addictive. Ativan is a different storey, it does cause temporary changes in how neurotransmitters work.
MyNameIsTerry
11-06-15, 05:46
I hope your not mixing that guiness with that benzo Davit...and having a good time:yesyes:
I think a Guiness addiction would also mean stocking up on a lot of toilet paper!!! :scared15:
I counsumed huge amounts of guiness and beetroot at a party the once.. I had health anxiety the morning after when I looked down the pan lmfao until my rational side kicked in
MyNameIsTerry
12-06-15, 05:32
I've never been to a guiness and beetroot party before, sounds very trendy! :winks:
This is info from the Ashton manual.
Speed of elimination. Benzodiazepines also differ markedly in the speed at which they are metabolised (in the liver) and eliminated from the body (in the urine) (Table 1). For example, the "half-life" (time taken for the blood concentration to fall to half its initial value after a single dose) of diazepam is 20-100 hours, and that of an active metabolite of diazepam (desmethyldiazepam) is 36-200 hours. This means that half the active products of diazepam are still in the bloodstream up to 200 hours after a single dose. Clearly, with repeated daily dosing accumulation occurs and high concentrations can build up in the body (mainly in fatty tissues). As Table 1 shows, there is a considerable variation between individuals in the rate at which they metabolise benzodiazepines.
---------- Post added at 17:30 ---------- Previous post was at 17:24 ----------
Also from the Ashton manual.
Worth a read.
Note. Regular and repeated use.
I became tolerant to Valium taking 4 mg 1~ 2 week
Dependence. Benzodiazepines are potentially addictive drugs: psychological and physical dependence can develop within a few weeks or months of regular or repeated use. There are several overlapping types of benzodiazepine dependence.
---------- Post added at 17:35 ---------- Previous post was at 17:30 ----------
Tolerance to different effects of benzodiazepines may vary between individuals - probably as a result of differences in intrinsic neurological and chemical make-up which are reflected in personality characteristics and susceptibility to stress. The development of tolerance is one of the reasons people become dependent on benzodiazepines,
---------- Post added at 17:42 ---------- Previous post was at 17:35 ----------
As I said, Valium is a valuable drug in treating anxiety, and if used occasionally or in extreme need, can provide a welcome relief of symptoms. I have thought I was careful, but I didn't understand about the 200 hour and accumulation of the drug metabolites in my body. My tolerance makes sense...now!
Valium has a 24 hour half life but the metabolites it breaks down to last longer. They do nothing for anxiety though. It gets broken down by the p450 enzyme in your liver. If it competes with other drugs using this enzyme it takes longer. Some times much longer.
Dependence depends on the person since technically valium is not chemically addictive. Ativan is a different storey, it does cause temporary changes in how neurotransmitters work.
I am sorry but I disagree as valium has helped me more than any anti depressant I have ever taken for anxiety.
I take huge doses daily, I am addicted and to be absolutely honest the valium isn't helping my anxiety anymore (after 20 years) but I can't come off it on my doctor's advise until I get more counselling and my heart and other issues take priority.My GP knows that I do not abuse the valium or up the dose.
I am not proud that I am addiced but at the moment I am in a no win situation.
NinjaKitty
15-06-15, 15:57
Im on a fairly high dose 5mg 3 times a day is fairly high for NHS scotland even though it is through my psychiatrist and he would happily prescribe me another 5mg a day if needed, I have been on and off benzos for the best part of nearly 15 yrs and I have always used the ashton method for withdrawal and it has always worked and caused minimal issues, don't get me wrong I get wwithdrawal symptoms but nothing the same as quitting cold turkey.
Also may I just Add that I have medical degrees including pharmacology and even if you are only on a low low dose benzo for an extended period of time your withdrawal symptoms can be just as bad as someone who is on a much higher dose for the same period of time this has been proven time and time again and everyone here should take that into consideration before making stupid or ridiculous joking comments towards a member looking for help.
this is ment o be a place for support and help not taking the preverbial out of someone just because his dose of Valium is quite low. Grow up and act your age and treat people with respect...... OH and the INTERNET DOESN'T KNOW EVERYTHING SEE A PSYCHIATRIST FOR THE RIGHT INFO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:mad:
Absolutely NinjaKitty!!!!
Also, I went to the docs once with side effects from a medication and she said, impossible that is not mentioned in the leaflet.
I then found out a lot of people have this side-effect. I can't stand the fact that conventional medicine will not accept anything that is not in black on white...
And it is the same with withdrawal, they only go by what they have studied and don't see people as individuals
Rant over :D
Im on a fairly high dose 5mg 3 times a day is fairly high for NHS scotland even though it is through my psychiatrist and he would happily prescribe me another 5mg a day if needed, I have been on and off benzos for the best part of nearly 15 yrs and I have always used the ashton method for withdrawal and it has always worked and caused minimal issues, don't get me wrong I get wwithdrawal symptoms but nothing the same as quitting cold turkey.
Also may I just Add that I have medical degrees including pharmacology and even if you are only on a low low dose benzo for an extended period of time your withdrawal symptoms can be just as bad as someone who is on a much higher dose for the same period of time this has been proven time and time again and everyone here should take that into consideration before making stupid or ridiculous joking comments towards a member looking for help.
this is ment o be a place for support and help not taking the preverbial out of someone just because his dose of Valium is quite low. Grow up and act your age and treat people with respect...... OH and the INTERNET DOESN'T KNOW EVERYTHING SEE A PSYCHIATRIST FOR THE RIGHT INFO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:mad:
I looked this up .
The only medically researched method of tapering off benzodiazepines that we are aware of was done by Dr. Heather Ashton. Her work in the field of benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome resulted in what we've come to know as the Ashton Manual (http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual).
Dr. Ashton recommends changing faster-acting benzos like Xanax, Ativan and Klonopin for an equivalent dose of Valium and using the Valium to get a smoother, more controlled taper. This is all explained in her manual.
My genuine question is why differenentiate Xanax,Ativan and Klonopin from Valium when they are all benzos.
I could understand like for like in equal dosage and then how to taper off but not the above.
Ashton is right in all respects except tapering.
Ativan has a four hour half life so max dose is only good for 16 hours out of the twenty four. So you get rebound. The other benzos are designer drugs that work on specific part of the brain where valium works on all parts. They are like valium with parts cut out. Some are very good for restless leg but not so good for the anxiety that comes with it.
Valium is still the safest and always will be the safest benzo because it treats all aspects of anxiety, there are no holes in its effectiveness. You don't actually become tolerant to benzos, what happens is that since all neurons are connected you build a path around it. So you need to do something mental for the anxiety before you can stop the chemical. Cognitive restructuring is that something. All benzos are muscle relaxants. They work on the Serotonin in the synapses in the body also. So they lower blood pressure and pulse when nothing else does. They do nothing to salvage Serotonin so are not antidepressants but do take some of the load off Serotonin. They are anti anxiety because their action is to stop information overload. They do this by blocking some of the receptors at each Synapse. Ativan can do this very fast but not for long. Valium is the opposite. Xanax and clonazepam block specific receptors so are prescribed for specific causes of anxiety. Valium gives you a smoother transition because it blocks all reasons for anxiety.
Unfortunately few GPs have enough information so they do the guessing game till they get the Benzo that works. Like they do with SSRIs.
---------- Post added at 10:30 ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 ----------
Before I get comments, Tapering did not work for me. I increased the time between doses without lowering the dose till the time was twice as long then cut the dose in half and did it again. No side effects of any consequence. Eventually just forgot to take them.
MyNameIsTerry
16-06-15, 04:56
Absolutely NinjaKitty!!!!
Also, I went to the docs once with side effects from a medication and she said, impossible that is not mentioned in the leaflet.
I then found out a lot of people have this side-effect. I can't stand the fact that conventional medicine will not accept anything that is not in black on white...
And it is the same with withdrawal, they only go by what they have studied and don't see people as individuals
Rant over :D
They don't even follow accepted guidelines anyway given The Royal College of Psychiatrists have guidelines that match the major charity MIND with the 10% reduction in withdrawn of antidepressants. Many GP's just see a dosage as produced by a manufacturer and drop you based on that e.g. I went onto 20mg Citalopram with no taper up and then tapered down at 50% reductions over a few weeks. No scientific method at all, purely based on dosage sizes.
The longer you are on, the longer you spend coming off...yet GP's just do it as standard for all patients.
The funny thing about doctors, especially GP's is that they don't believe something could work until their is suitable clinical evidence accepted yet they forget that every single condition, disease and treatment was at some point without any evidence of existennce or effectiveness. To believe something cannot be a possibility because there is no accepted evidence does not mean it has been ruled out and modern medicine is not at its pinnacle so its pure arrogance to think it is!
---------- Post added at 04:54 ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 ----------
This is info from the Ashton manual.
Speed of elimination. Benzodiazepines also differ markedly in the speed at which they are metabolised (in the liver) and eliminated from the body (in the urine) (Table 1). For example, the "half-life" (time taken for the blood concentration to fall to half its initial value after a single dose) of diazepam is 20-100 hours, and that of an active metabolite of diazepam (desmethyldiazepam) is 36-200 hours. This means that half the active products of diazepam are still in the bloodstream up to 200 hours after a single dose. Clearly, with repeated daily dosing accumulation occurs and high concentrations can build up in the body (mainly in fatty tissues). As Table 1 shows, there is a considerable variation between individuals in the rate at which they metabolise benzodiazepines.
Drugs reach "steady-state" within 4-5 half lives and are mostly there after 3 as a standard.
The things is as well, it takes the same number of half lives to completely remove a drug from the body although if the ratio is the same as the one for reaching steady-state, it will likely mostly be gone by the 3rd half life.
Given NinjaKitty has a degree in pharmocology, hopefully that can be explained in more detail as I'm less sure about the out ratios. I would also assume that given how steady-state works, there is a limit to the level of a drug in the body or it would reach overdose levels. Since people tend to be taking Diazepam over short intervals, the metabolites must somehow be either flushed out or stored outside of the blood where they are beyond the levels seen in steady-state.
---------- Post added at 04:56 ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 ----------
I looked this up .
The only medically researched method of tapering off benzodiazepines that we are aware of was done by Dr. Heather Ashton. Her work in the field of benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome resulted in what we've come to know as the Ashton Manual (http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual).
Dr. Ashton recommends changing faster-acting benzos like Xanax, Ativan and Klonopin for an equivalent dose of Valium and using the Valium to get a smoother, more controlled taper. This is all explained in her manual.
My genuine question is why differenentiate Xanax,Ativan and Klonopin from Valium when they are all benzos.
I could understand like for like in equal dosage and then how to taper off but not the above.
Its because the shorter the half life, the harder the withdrawal syndrome. Its the same with all antidepressants too and frequently a problem with short half lives in such as Venlaxafine so psychiatrists advise to switch to Prozac as that has a much longer half life and it means the impact to your system is much less.
NinjaKitty
16-06-15, 12:17
Ashton is right in all respects except tapering.
Ativan has a four hour half life so max dose is only good for 16 hours out of the twenty four. So you get rebound. The other benzos are designer drugs that work on specific part of the brain where valium works on all parts. They are like valium with parts cut out. Some are very good for restless leg but not so good for the anxiety that comes with it.
Valium is still the safest and always will be the safest benzo because it treats all aspects of anxiety, there are no holes in its effectiveness. You don't actually become tolerant to benzos, what happens is that since all neurons are connected you build a path around it. So you need to do something mental for the anxiety before you can stop the chemical. Cognitive restructuring is that something. All benzos are muscle relaxants. They work on the Serotonin in the synapses in the body also. So they lower blood pressure and pulse when nothing else does. They do nothing to salvage Serotonin so are not antidepressants but do take some of the load off Serotonin. They are anti anxiety because their action is to stop information overload. They do this by blocking some of the receptors at each Synapse. Ativan can do this very fast but not for long. Valium is the opposite. Xanax and clonazepam block specific receptors so are prescribed for specific causes of anxiety. Valium gives you a smoother transition because it blocks all reasons for anxiety.
Unfortunately few GPs have enough information so they do the guessing game till they get the Benzo that works. Like they do with SSRIs.
---------- Post added at 10:30 ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 ----------
Before I get comments, Tapering did not work for me. I increased the time between doses without lowering the dose till the time was twice as long then cut the dose in half and did it again. No side effects of any consequence. Eventually just forgot to take them.
the Ashton Method has always ben reduce slight ammount of the Benzo you are on then taper onto valium (diazepam) and taper from anything from 1-5mg per week or every 6 weeks depending on your withdrawal symptoms and your panic/anxiety issues there is a lot of ways to do it but this method via the ashton method has been worldly known to be the best course of action obviously depending on what you decide to do. Having degrees i have in pharmacology and I was training to be a surgeon i wouldn't divert from Ashton but some people son't want to do it that way, there is another method by someone whose name escapes me but i will post name and website at some point. there is always hope and doing it in a practical way is best. cold turkey and doing it too quickly is lways the worst thing to do:yesyes:
---------- Post added at 12:17 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------
I looked this up .
The only medically researched method of tapering off benzodiazepines that we are aware of was done by Dr. Heather Ashton. Her work in the field of benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome resulted in what we've come to know as the Ashton Manual (http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual).
Dr. Ashton recommends changing faster-acting benzos like Xanax, Ativan and Klonopin for an equivalent dose of Valium and using the Valium to get a smoother, more controlled taper. This is all explained in her manual.
My genuine question is why differenentiate Xanax,Ativan and Klonopin from Valium when they are all benzos.
I could understand like for like in equal dosage and then how to taper off but not the above.
I kow this very very well considering i have done the Ashton method 3 times...... there are other methods not just Ashton but really depends what country you live in, in the UK it is not known by most psychs or Dr's
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