Nootropics/Smart Drugs

[robinbrum]

Has anybody heard or have any knowledge of the kind of drugs described here : http://nootriment.com/. I know these products are a bit of a grey area as far as the law is concerned but it would appear that they are marketed as nutritional supplements.
Any feedback appreciated.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Are there any particular ones you are looking at?

Many of the mainstream supplement companies stock Nootropics too thesedays. So, given they are sold openly, the law won't be an issue. If the government change the law at any point then once you see the mainstream companies pull out of these products, you know there is a problem. Thats how it went for DHEA & GABA years ago.

I think the government are in the process of introducing new legal highs laws soon so it will be worth watching to see if Nootropics take a hit. I seem to recall some talk about them somewhere but can't say for sure.

[robinbrum]

Hi Terry, thanks for your reply.

I am a complete novice when it comes to these new so-called smart drugs. I have heard that Phenibut is good for Social Anxiety and depression, likewise Piracetam, Aniracetam and all the other "racetams". I am currently taking 70mg of lisdexamfetamine a day for ADHD (which I'm not sure I have) and I am pretty sure these two drugs would be contraindicated as they both have stimulant properties (Lisdexamfetamine is a stimulant).

I know I'm going to get short shrift from the doc but I hear good things about these drugs from people who appear to be taking them in a responsible way and not in any way abusing them for "kicks"

The price is prohibitive but if they worked I wouldn't mind paying it so much. Lisdexamfetamine helps but not enough and I have tried methylphenidate and found it to be too harsh on the system.

I guess the government will try and ban it they can't make any revenue from it. i am certainly of a mind to give one of these nootropics a try though.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Well, you learn something new everyday - yes I have taken Nootropics!

I've taken caffeine! And I've taken L-theanine in sports supplements which would have been at low doses.

Caffeine has its uses but in anxiety it can be a problem. I used to take guarana supplements in the mornings. They were goood for alertness but they could be an issue with anxiety. I think I recall green coffee bean being an alternative without the caffeine element but that might have been from an antioxidant angle so not a nootropic thing.

Some people find L-theanine helpful, I've seen it mentioned on the GAD board before. Some people have it as a tea. Without checking, I seem to recall it feeding in somewhere to the glutamate system. They are starting to make antidepressants that take advantage of that system. L-theanine crosses the blood-brain barrier. Theanine does increase serotonin, GABA and dopamine so it may be helpful. I did take GABA years ago when I was lifting weights (before it was banned) and when you take that it does makke you feel quite good but beware that it can also make your face flush and give you some breathlessness but this only lasts a few minutes.

I think theanine is pretty safe but check the dosages out. I recall it works well with caffeine so thats another element to check out. Its also everywhere so it will be cheap.

Nicotine is a nootropic as well! So, I've tried that as an ex smoker :D and I would imagine many people have tried isoflavones!

Lots of people take panax ginseng. I avoided that because I know it can cause headaches and the guy at the health food shop advised using Siberian ginseng instead. I used that for years and it was fine. I haven't used these things since having anxiety though as I have struggled working back through taking things as my anxiety latched onto supplementation as an issue. I would like to get back into some of these though such as the ginseng. Using the online interaction checkes like on Drugs.com or WebMD tend to be useful.

So, they can't fully ban nootropics, only ones they find that could be dangerous. Since some of them have had some basic studies and there are some results stating some forms have a low potential for harm then they are going to be around for a long time I reckon.

Somehow, I doubt a GP would have a clue about them. They rarely seem to understand vitamins & minerals let alone all this stuff! A pharmacist would be a better option.

Just be careful with Ginkgo Biloba. That has a major interaction with SSRI/SNRI's. However, if you Google "NICE Gingko Biloba Camomile" you should find a link to the NICE review of using these two together as they have made a recommendation for further study in mild GAD. There should be some online studies you can then find. Since NICE said it could be a future treatment option, its worth a look.

Are all racetams stimulants? If so, could you choose the most likely to fit for you and then try ones from the other catagories?

[robinbrum]

I think the term is quite a general one and covers natural as well as synthetic drugs. As you mention caffeine, nicotine etc. I have tried ginko biloba and ginseng but found them completely ineffective (at least as far as affecting my mood but I believe they are good in promoting overall physical health). The same goes for amino acids, L-trytophan, L-tyrosine etc as well as 5-HTP and St Johns Wort. I envy the people who find these beneficial but they did nothing for me.

I think the drugs I am interested in are of the more chemical types and many of the racetams appear to mimic both the effects of ADHD medication but also many anti-depressants and anxiolytics.

What worries me is the lack of regulation and also impartial information. The NHS should test these things and see if they have any validity. What's to stop them?

I am of a mind to try phenibut which I think may be quite similar to the GABA that you tried a few years ago but which is now banned. I am looking at the reviews on WebMD now. On Youtube it seems to be a very positive reaction to this drug and other racetams/nootropics/smart drugs, whatever you want to call them.

[Emphyrio]

Have you considered lithium orotate or Rhodiola Rosea? They both seem to have a good evidence base behind them.

I'd be wary of phenibut - I've heard of a few people who have found it comparable to benzodiazepines in terms of dependence/withdrawal. Also it seems to function well as an anxiolytic drug, but the jury is still out on its nootropic property.

What dosage of L-Tyrosine did you take? You may need to take 4+ grammes to have notice any kind of effect on mood/cognition.

NAC also seems to have potential to benefit mood positively.

[robinbrum]

Emphyrio: I have some of the same concerns about Phenibut and other nootropics now that I have done a little more research. I think many people are looking at them as a kind of more socially acceptable legal high but I'm not looking to get any kind of buzz off them at all. I am not sure how much one becomes dependent on them but I do worry about developing a tolerance for them. That said, does it make them any more of a risk than the pills prescribed by a GP?

I think i took as much as 10 grammes of L-tyrosine. One day I did notice a slight increase in energy but on subsequent occasions really no noticeable difference at all.

I have Googled the other supplements you mentioned and I may well give them a go.

I am presently investigating the health properties of kombucha after buying some from a farmer's market in Birmingham. It is basically fermented green tea. So far I can definitely recommend it if you have a hangover...it works!

[MyNameIsTerry]

Kombuchas healthy for various reasons and available online quite easily or you can brew your own at home via the continous brewing methods used for it.

If you are moving that way, into things like probiotics, have a look at kefir.

[robinbrum]

Yes, I am looking into kefir because I think the kombucha seemed to help. It is very expensive though so I haven't been able to take it on a long term basis. I plan to get a kit and make my own which would be much more cost effective,

They say our second brain is in the gut so I think there may be some merit in all of this.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Continuous brewing is very cheap compared to buying bottled. Kombucha is more involved whereas kefir is pretty simple. Looking at kefir you would pay a fortune to replicate the levels of bacteria in supplement form.

I'm gearing up to brew water kefir and find Happy Kombucha a really helpful company to ask about the finer details.

[panic_down_under]

Here is even a review article that confirms this - review about Nootriment.com

I question the expertise of any site which promotes the use of oral GABA and 5-HTP for mood disorders. They lack a fundamental understanding of these, and I'm guessing of all the other things they sell.

No functioning brain is deficient in the amino acid GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) which is the main inhibitory neurotransmitter of the brain. It is a by-product of the Krebs/citric acid cycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid_cycle) that converts glucose to Adenosine triphosphate (ATP) the main energy source of brain cells (and most other cells of the body). As a result the brain is so awash with GABA that the blood-brain-barrier contains billions, perhaps trillions, of tiny molecular pumps1 to remove the excess into the blood stream for disposal.

What anxious brains lack is benzodiazepine binding sites on GABA receptors2 and the ones that exist are less sensitive. Trying to overcome this with more GABA is akin to trying to fix faulty spark plugs by overfilling the petrol tank. Plus the blood-brain barrier prevents orally taken GABA entering the brain. It will all end up down the 'S' bend.

As for 5-HTP, firstly the most serotonergic organ of the body isn't the brain, it is only a minor maker and user. The gut makes and uses about 95% (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-second-brain/) of the body's serotonin. Almost all orally taken 5-HTP will be scavenged as soon as it enters the gut. The second issue is that antidepressants don't work by producing more serotonin. See my: Serotonin - The 'chemical imbalance' myth (http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=193671)

Moreover, only about 3% of dietary 5-HTP is probably converted to serotonin. The other 97% is likely converted to protein, or kynurenine, the precursor of kynurenic and quinolinic acids. At least this is the case with l-Tryptophan (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908021/) the 5-HTP precursor.


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[2]
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[Benjammin69]

I have recently tried a few nootropics and the idea behind these is not to find a comparison drug but to identify what the nootropic does a I have tried afabazole, Selank, phenibut and etofixine.

Phenibut is chemically the same as baclofen so gaba b so will alleviate anxiety but phenibut is more wild and chaos.

Selank a nasal spray which calms down anxiety but increases mental a awareness

Afabazole - ****ing nothing

Etofixine amazing, works a charm honestl no withdrawals, no start up and anxiety is reduced within 3 days.

[WiredIncorrectly]

What anxious brains lack is benzodiazepine binding sites on GABA receptors2

Well ... that explains a lot for me PDU :roflmao: