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Riders are negative thought that you attach to positives changing them to negative. They get in the way of doing CBT. They are often subconscious because positive is the focus.
An example is being at a party having fun but wanting to be somewhere else.
Sitting in a restaurant with friends but thinking you should be shopping or making supper.
Thinking I really want to go to that store but every time I do I get anxious.
You might think, so what, one on one they balance out. They don't. Negative thoughts are survival thoughts and go right to the fear centre and cause anxiety.
Thinking "I'm doing CBT because I have to" defeats the purpose. You do CBT so you don't need meds, not because you have to to quit the meds. Mood and attitude are the biggest cause of riders, conscious or subconscious. I bet if you look you have lots of riders riding your attempts at positive thought. Riders really open you to depression and anxiety because sometimes you don't notice they are there.
I agree completely, Davit. Trouble is, to implement this for the rest of your life there can be no slip-ups along the way and none of us are perfect, whether "programmed" or not. Is this expecting too much of us as flawed, human individuals?
misskittie
18-06-15, 19:39
I know I've caught myself doing the "hopefully" routine. Hopefully this works, hopefully everything will come back fine. I didn't realize at first that it was even a negative way of looking at things but really where is the determination in that.
I don't think we can look at it as we cannot slip up for the rest of our lives, that's only a recipe for disaster when we do. There are of course going to be times when we back track but I think with practice we get more mindful of it and will be able to get ourselves back on track easier anytime it may happen. But I look at this kind of like an alcoholic trying to quit drinking there can't be an all or nothing attitude. My mother in law has been in aa for 27 years and she still has a bad moment here or there but each time she gets up brushes herself off and says it's OK I learnt from this experience and now I'm ready to move forward. I think that's a great way of looking at it and then you won't feel like a failure and beat yourself up about it and make it worse.
Yes, that sounds like an excellent way to approach things. She must be a very strong lady.
Riders are going to slip in every now and then, that is called being human. And just like you counter negative what ifs with positive what ifs you do the same with riders. Positive what ifs make good positive riders. They go right along with accepting it happened. Beating yourself up because you slipped is not good.
Okay You know me, Mr information Junky! Every piece of information that gets past Serotonin (a neurotranmitter whose job it is to regulate what crosses the synapses) and across the synapses has to pass through Hippocampus for direction. No exceptions. It is a very busy little fellow and like the rest of the brain that works with electrical impulses it works at the speed of light. As fast as a computer or faster. It can process a lot of information in a second. It can override involuntary systems but only if necessary. It deals with incoming information only. (internal or external) Every thought action and observation goes through it. Serotonin reduces it's load. Good thoughts, bad thoughts, thoughts without answers. All of them. It makes three choices only. Positive thoughts (happy thoughts mostly) go directly to Hypothalamus for an action. Negative thoughts it has a choice with. It usually sends them to left side Amygdala which is the thinking side of Amygdala. It (Amygdala) has a separate set of memories it uses to make decisions to use to direct Hypothalamus. It can also send the message to the right side which is the panic attack side and that side will direct Hypothalamus. (all at the speed of light dealing with many thoughts every second) (some repeats) So your thought will give Hypothalamus three choices. Little or no action, Anxiety with the symptoms it used last time or panic attack with the symptoms it used last time. Hypothalamus has access to all memories so it can find an answer to almost any thought or it can find something related (imagination) Episodic memory is memory of accepted past answers. Semantic memory is memory of things it can use to guess. (is that a cow or a horse) (called associated memory too) Procedural memory is memory it uses to direct how to do things. (skip rope, drive a car)
Episodic memory is very fast so panic attacks can happen very fast if they are in it's collection of procedures.
To get back to riders. A thought that should and would be positive bypasses Amygdala, the fear/panic centre. But put a negative rider on it and it flags Hippocampus to send it through Amygdala to see if it is dangerous or just needs action. Left side Amygdala makes it's decision based on it's own personal memory of past experiences.
If you can ride out the action it directs, that will go into it's memory as a possible action. It's job though is survival and protection so it will use any negative available first. But and this is a good but. When searching memory both Hypothalamus and Amygdala use the last installed first unless it doesn't fit the situation. So even if a rider sends the thought to Amygdala, if there are some positive solutions the reaction will be less severe. So the odd slip up won't likely go to panic attack. And if it does it will be mild. But, another but, this is only if it has positives it can use. Same with Hypothalamus. Enough positives and you don't get symptoms. Positive thought can not cause anxiety because it doesn't go through the fear centre. Doubt is a common rider. Often a silent one but effective just the same.
So if you catch yourself and challenge the rider and replace it with a positive thought you will be conditioning memory. Since all thought including riders comes from memory riders can be buried so you don't have to counter them for the rest of your life.
This is more cognitive restructuring, unfortunately left out of a lot of CBT. But it is why done right CBT can totally change how you see every thought action and observation. It can reduce the need for benzo's and SSRIs. I take neither anymore. Do I get negative riders? Once in a while, like today, I went to town for cat food. But since they were not out it was my choice to go or to wait. I chose to go and enjoy the drive and the time away from home. A positive action for episodic memory. An action to counter the "I don't really want to go" rider.
misskittie
18-06-15, 22:41
Wow that is a lot of information but is really interesting and makes a lot of sense. I know personally I've been working a lot with positive affirmations and breathing techniques lately and got to reap some of the benefits today when my dad called outta nowhere slamming my husband and the mistakes I made having kids with him and so on. Normally this would send me into a tailspin for days but today I broke down for 5 mins and not even as hard as I have in the past and was able to pull myself out of it with hardly any effort. I say back after I read your newest post and went this is amazing.
Our brain is so fascinating and I'm loving learning more about how it functions especially in cases of panic and anxiety.
Misskittie.
If you concentrate on your success and go to sleep tonight thinking positive it will go into long term memory and next time your Dad does that Amygdala will use it for reference. It will give you this for symptoms for the anxiety. Bearable right. You can then change that reaction to even shorter since you know he is wrong and besides it is none of his business. (assertive) This will go into memory too and now the old thought will be under two layers. Remember last entered first used. So even though Amygdala only deals in fear and negatives it can use positives to make it's decisions. Positives can't open it. So your dad opens it and your thoughts close it. You can do this with any negative thought opening Amygdala. You just need positives in memory it can use.
If he has been doing this for a while you will likely have a core belief trying to convince you he is right. If it started young it will be strong because it will be attached to another core belief that says parents are right, parents should be listened too. Well those are false, change them. Wrong is wrong no matter where it comes from. The interesting thing is once you start to put positives into memory it becomes appropriate and your mind runs on appropriate. It doesn't care about right or wrong just appropriate. Repetition makes a thought appropriate. Wether it is negative or positive. This is why negatives are hard to challenge, but must be. You need to get a wedge into them like you did today. Keep this up and you are going to be just fine.
---------- Post added at 17:14 ---------- Previous post was at 16:52 ----------
Memory is stored as parts of an episode with similar thoughts not repeated. Instead every episode is given a key to put the thoughts together to make the episode. Positive keys can not make anxious episodes even though they can use some of the same thoughts as a negative episode. Repetition strengthens the pathway (whether it is negative or positive). Electrical pulses travel down the strengthened path ways faster, (twice as fast). When you bury a negative thought you only bury the negative key and the negative parts not the whole thing, you might be using parts of it with the positive key. If the pathway it is on doesn't get used for a while the key fades and the pathway is salvaged for other use. The thought isn't forgot, you just can't use it anymore unless you have a negative thought that needs it's parts. Staying positive keeps it from being used. Over time almost all your memory will be positive. The working part anyway. There will always be some negatives for survival and from things you experience but they only cause normal short time anxiety.
You actually will live a more normal life than normal people. Much more stable for having gone through anxiety and changing it. For having information they don't have.
misskittie
19-06-15, 02:00
Thanks for the info Davit. I'm going to keep working on everything you say. I feel like I'm stalking you on here reading all your posts ;) lol but they are really interesting and add whole new ways of looking at things. Plus it's great to see a fellow canadian on here.
Misskittie.
If you concentrate on your success and go to sleep tonight thinking positive it will go into long term memory and next time your Dad does that Amygdala will use it for reference. It will give you this for symptoms for the anxiety. Bearable right. You can then change that reaction to even shorter since you know he is wrong and besides it is none of his business. (assertive) This will go into memory too and now the old thought will be under two layers. Remember last entered first used. So even though Amygdala only deals in fear and negatives it can use positives to make it's decisions. Positives can't open it. So your dad opens it and your thoughts close it. You can do this with any negative thought opening Amygdala. You just need positives in memory it can use.
If he has been doing this for a while you will likely have a core belief trying to convince you he is right. If it started young it will be strong because it will be attached to another core belief that says parents are right, parents should be listened too. Well those are false, change them. Wrong is wrong no matter where it comes from. The interesting thing is once you start to put positives into memory it becomes appropriate and your mind runs on appropriate. It doesn't care about right or wrong just appropriate. Repetition makes a thought appropriate. Wether it is negative or positive. This is why negatives are hard to challenge, but must be. You need to get a wedge into them like you did today. Keep this up and you are going to be just fine.
---------- Post added at 17:14 ---------- Previous post was at 16:52 ----------
Memory is stored as parts of an episode with similar thoughts not repeated. Instead every episode is given a key to put the thoughts together to make the episode. Positive keys can not make anxious episodes even though they can use some of the same thoughts as a negative episode. Repetition strengthens the pathway (whether it is negative or positive). Electrical pulses travel down the strengthened path ways faster, (twice as fast). When you bury a negative thought you only bury the negative key and the negative parts not the whole thing, you might be using parts of it with the positive key. If the pathway it is on doesn't get used for a while the key fades and the pathway is salvaged for other use. The thought isn't forgot, you just can't use it anymore unless you have a negative thought that needs it's parts. Staying positive keeps it from being used. Over time almost all your memory will be positive. The working part anyway. There will always be some negatives for survival and from things you experience but they only cause normal short time anxiety.
You actually will live a more normal life than normal people. Much more stable for having gone through anxiety and changing it. For having information they don't have.
Great post Davit and thanks for the information. I've often thought what you said at the end, about being in a better position mentally (once I have cured myself) than people who haven't been through panic. :)
You actually will become very stable. Life smooths out. Not like on meds where anxiety doesn't happen because it is blocked. Anxiety happens still but gets a different reaction, so you still get to experience life, it just looks different. It just doesn't bother you in the same way. Anxiety turns into observation. It becomes harmless. GAD disappears when there is no reason to worry.
People who have had their Hippocampus badly damaged can not have fear or panic attacks but they also can not remember yesterday. All new memory stops the moment it is damaged. Hippocampus is the most studied brain organ and has led to a lot of changed ideas about anxiety and how it happens. It has shown anyone can have anxiety and also that anyone can get rid of it. It is a matter of using thought patterns to direct the organs to do the right things. The choice really is yours.
MyNameIsTerry
30-06-15, 05:50
Since we are talking about positive & negative, time for some old wisdom.
The Tale of Two Wolves
An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy.
“It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”
The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
Yes, I was going to post that. I've had it on file a long time. Says something about us when we can have something that works but we don't use it.
MyNameIsTerry
30-06-15, 07:53
Its amazing how the modern world is doing a bit of a u-turn on how it moved away from wisdom in favour of drugs & surgery (well, to be fair the Roman's were doing things on battlefields that we only re-discovered 100 years or so ago!).
We get Socratic Questioning in CBT. The clues in the name where that one comes from.
Its taken a scientist to bring Mindfulness into the West in the 1970's and now its everywhere yet it never went anywhere. The same with things like yoga.
I guess its the arrogance of the medical profession throughout history that put us on that path.
We have internet, we have information and we can cross reference to sort the true from the false. But still people take the word of one person writing a book with no back up or reference to their work. And testimonials. A good piece will have references attached to it from people in the field not some one with no background. Why do people do that, take the word of some one just because they thought it was a good read, I mean where is the science in that. What the hell, people buy cars the same way. Beware the sales man eating peanuts right.
MyNameIsTerry
30-06-15, 08:24
I think people like to see that something has helped someone in the real world. Expert testimonials can be fake too though, some are willing to give them for a fee afterall.
So, its sometimes hard to work out who is genuine. Then you have places like Amazon where fake reviewers (and companies themselves) are well known to adding reviews.
An issue I tend to have with it a lot is recovered sufferers writing books. I've read a few and there's nothing in them that hasn't been covered by Weekes or places like this. Those guys just rip people off all under the guise of being altruistic...for a price. Anyone could spend time reading the articles on here, other sites, follow some threads, etc and produce a self help book. Like last nights spammer, who has not been banned on this username but has on the others :shrug:
Its bad enough we have millions of CBT books all saying the same from experts!
Its alright taking someones word for it being a good read when it is just a book you intend to read out of interest. Putting your health needs in that category can mean losing money.
An issue I tend to have with it a lot is recovered sufferers writing books. I've read a few and there's nothing in them that hasn't been covered by Weekes or places like this. Those guys just rip people off all under the guise of being altruistic...for a price. Anyone could spend time reading the articles on here, other sites, follow some threads, etc and produce a self help book. Like last nights spammer, who has not been banned on this username but has on the others :shrug:
Its bad enough we have millions of CBT books all saying the same from experts!
I disagree with this. I don't believe a person who has recovered from panic and then who writes a book about it is motivated by greed. Sure they may then make some money out of it if it becomes successful but I do not believe that was the original reason for writing in the first place. Yes all the information is available online somewhere, both on here and other places but not everyone has access to the internet or knows where to look even if they did. I have learnt a lot over the last 4 years from reading a variety of books including some from recovered panickers. Some information has been helpful, some not but that's the same with anything in life. It's a case of learning and experiencing as much as possible and then figuring out what works for you and what doesn't. Trial and error so to speak. Whilst certain famous recovered people's methods and techniques may not have worked personally for me (who it seems I can't mention by name lol), I still would not discount them as being beneficial for other people. For my own recovery it has been important to know that people can and do completely recover and that has been reinforced by reading success stories. It also reduces the sense of aloneness that I have felt going through the panic. Just knowing and reading someone else's story has helped motivate and reassure me at times. There can be great value in a recover's story even if it doesn't ultimately "cure" you. It may simply be enough to take you in a different direction that ultimately leads you to the cure.
MyNameIsTerry
30-06-15, 09:06
The trouble is Nat, if its an ebook its costs very little to supply to others. Some are very low priced hence greed isn't the issue but some are even more than books by professionals that are up to 3 times larger with a lot more in them. There's one on here trying to flog one for $59.99 which seems high for what is likely going to be another ebook.
The one we can't mention is probably the greatest example. Zero proof, even when asked to supply it formally. Recycled Weekes with some CBT thrown in and some unique extras.
I agree with you that what works for some doesn't work for others & vice versa but I don't like paying out to find out that I've bought something that is available free if you know where to look.
I guess you are right, not all are in it for the money, I was generalising there but some are shown by their overpricing, fake reviews posted, etc.
No, I have books I bought for reference after the fact but their reference outlined what I was getting. A good reference will tell you exactly what you are buying. A reference that is ten pages and only says I was cured tells me the book no matter how long has no more information than that. It is worthless. My book is free, if anyone asks what is in it I'll tell them and they can decide if they want it for reference since they will already have the outline. I would do this even if I was selling it. But then it actually has something in it and would sell.
Disney has formula movies, there are formula books and ghost writers that write them. They are all the same.
The trouble is Nat, if its an ebook its costs very little to supply to others. Some are very low priced hence greed isn't the issue but some are even more than books by professionals that are up to 3 times larger with a lot more in them. There's one on here trying to flog one for $59.99 which seems high for what is likely going to be another ebook.
The one we can't mention is probably the greatest example. Zero proof, even when asked to supply it formally. Recycled Weekes with some CBT thrown in and some unique extras.
I agree with you that what works for some doesn't work for others & vice versa but I don't like paying out to find out that I've bought something that is available free if you know where to look.
I guess you are right, not all are in it for the money, I was generalising there but some are shown by their overpricing, fake reviews posted, etc.
Yes I agree that the price of $60 or more is excessive and greedy and the reason I didn't purchase a copy of that particular one! I also agree that there is probably a lot of fake reviews on there as well. However, I imagine there are some genuine people who have been helped/cured by that method (and others) in which case it was successful for them. Unfortunately it's sometimes a case just trying different things. I had a very inspirational teacher from school who said that nothing was a waste of time. If you tried something and discovered it wasn't right for you then you have learnt something and there is value in that. He meant in all aspects of life but it can be applied to recovery from panic.
For me, I've read books saying very similar things but I've responded in different ways depending on how it was written. I read Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now" first and this helped lay some foundations for me of mindfulness and present moment living. It wasn't until I read his other book "A New Earth" that I really "got" the essence of his teaching. The information was virtually identical, but the second book resonated much more with me and perhaps this is the case with multiple books on the same topic. Some people will benefit from a certain style of writing over another even if the information is essentially the same. Also I've found that I needed to be receptive to the new information in order to get the benefits. 3 years ago I was not in the right mindset to accept and try the information that Davit is sharing. It's highly likely I would have discarded it as useless at that time due to heavy resistance inside me. Now my mindset is very different and it is working because of this. This does not mean that the information was "wrong" 3 years ago, as its still the same information. It's simply that I wasn't ready to hear it. I would guess there is some element of this when people try different approaches and techniques to recovery.
Davit, I (and I'm sure many others) are very grateful for all the information you are sharing with us. :)
MyNameIsTerry
02-08-15, 11:10
Bump
MyNameIsTerry
09-08-15, 06:48
Yes I agree that the price of $60 or more is excessive and greedy and the reason I didn't purchase a copy of that particular one! I also agree that there is probably a lot of fake reviews on there as well. However, I imagine there are some genuine people who have been helped/cured by that method (and others) in which case it was successful for them. Unfortunately it's sometimes a case just trying different things. I had a very inspirational teacher from school who said that nothing was a waste of time. If you tried something and discovered it wasn't right for you then you have learnt something and there is value in that. He meant in all aspects of life but it can be applied to recovery from panic.
For me, I've read books saying very similar things but I've responded in different ways depending on how it was written. I read Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now" first and this helped lay some foundations for me of mindfulness and present moment living. It wasn't until I read his other book "A New Earth" that I really "got" the essence of his teaching. The information was virtually identical, but the second book resonated much more with me and perhaps this is the case with multiple books on the same topic. Some people will benefit from a certain style of writing over another even if the information is essentially the same. Also I've found that I needed to be receptive to the new information in order to get the benefits. 3 years ago I was not in the right mindset to accept and try the information that Davit is sharing. It's highly likely I would have discarded it as useless at that time due to heavy resistance inside me. Now my mindset is very different and it is working because of this. This does not mean that the information was "wrong" 3 years ago, as its still the same information. It's simply that I wasn't ready to hear it. I would guess there is some element of this when people try different approaches and techniques to recovery.
Davit, I (and I'm sure many others) are very grateful for all the information you are sharing with us. :)
They were not the ones I had in mind really when I stated that though, I was meaning more the lesser known ones that are bloating the internet with ebooks and some are even self publishing on places like Amazon. I can see the appeal for say 99p as a punt but charging similiar values to the professionals stinks of profiteering to me. A product should be priced based on not only it's worth to what it can achieve for the reader but also inline with it's competition. Grossly overcharging a product is about either naiveity or opportunism.
I have a big problem with this because I'm not first & foremost a member of NMP, but an anxiety sufferer. I've seen people buy book after book. What are they gaining other than one person's backstory and the kind of information available free anywhere?
There is a reason that only certain ones make it through real publishing.
I just would like to say a lot of what Davit has said and written on here,I have read and seen most of it in my husbands library,so nothing new to me.....there is a word for it.
Just saying.
MyNameIsTerry
10-08-15, 06:38
He researched it from CBT sources, so there was never anything new to it other than his own perspective on things. But it's not on sale so no comparison to the above conversation there.
I am not being unkind Terry,but it is his Wording that is familiar :D
MyNameIsTerry
10-08-15, 06:46
He did say he had CBT therapy for over a year and spent about 5 years reading up on it. Nothing seems to be for sale and all credit seems to be to CBT itself.
I see no issue in any of this, it's information and can be beneficial to people. Some of it opened my eyes to the CBT I had but never had.
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