Coming off meds is hard!

[Crystalhiggs]

They don't tell you that when they dish them out do they??

I've only been on Trazodone 3.5 months. It's been horrible and never suited me. But you can't just stop! And the withdrawal is awful!

I was on 50mg. I'm now on 35. It will take me 6 more weeks to come off it and most days I feel like cr*p!

Just want my life back!!!

[sial72]

You're too right!!! They don't tell you when they're dishing them out.
Anyway, yes it is hard. But yes, it can be done and once you've done it you become so much stronger.
Don't worry, you will get your life back xx
Let me know if you need a chat

[Crystalhiggs]

Thank you Sial. I never wanted to take meds but was so desperate for sleep I gave it a go. My anxiety went through the roof for weeks but I thought I'd stick at it in the hope of feeling better, which I never did!

So here I am thinking what a waste of all these months. But I've learned my lesson. Don't get me wrong I think there is a place for medication and I know it can really help it just hasn't worked for me. :(

Thanks for your support x

[gregcool]

Yep your right crystal no they dont.they just dish them out,and tell you to stick with them for x amouts of weeks.by then you body is used to having them..then if they dont work,your screwed..keep going you will get there in a few more weeks to go

[Crystalhiggs]

Thanks greg yes it's really frustrating! I hope the lower I go the less side effects there will be... She told me to just stop at 10 so I hope that will be ok!

[gregcool]

Well if you dont feel comftable stoping at 10mg.go down to 5mg then 2.5mg...dp whats best for you..take it slow

[Davit]

Just so you know, it does get better. I'm on nothing and wish I had never been on anything. Meds never did me any good. Information did.

I'm not against them, just against them for me and all those they don't help.

[Crystalhiggs]

Thank you Davit. I agree totally. I'm having CBT at the moment and really trying to retrain my brain when the negative thoughts come in, but sometimes it's really hard!

Dropping down to 30 tonight..the sooner I'm off this the better..!

[Davit]

Yes that is why I put the thread "riders up". We don't realize how many subconscious thoughts we have getting in the way. Positive thought does slowly nibble away at them. At the time I believed only medication could straighten me out. I was so wrong. I spent a lot of time after with acceptance and assertiveness. " I see you anxiety, I don't need you, go away". It didn't always listen, so I made a cup or two of Lemon Balm tea and it went away. Medication is temporary at best. Like Tylenol, it may get rid of todays head ache but not tomorrows unless I take more. Best thing is to get rid of the reason for the head ache in the first place. SSRIs are no different.

[Crystalhiggs]

Well I dropped to 30 last night. Woke at 3.30 and been awake since...feel very shaky this morning. But will try to keep positive!!!

Davit will read your riders thread, thanks.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Yep, GP's dish them out like sweeties and don't think about the consequences, well maybe not all of them as some people on here have shown they actually have good GP's who understand more about these drugs (jammy b*ggers!)

Funnily enough is you look at NICE guidelines they are very specific about getting informed consent from the patient on this issue by telling them about the possible complications. Sadly, GP's don't really seem to be watched and this lack of governance by the NHS has led to a massive inconsistency in how we are treated...kind of the opposite of one of the big fundamentals of what the NHS is for really but thats the problem when you make things regional and then split it down even further.

With some of these meds, coming off the final small dose can see a fair few side effects. This was more pronounced for me when I came off Citalopram but it was easily manageable.

I wonder whether thats more with the ones where you go on lower mg doses for the same level of effect of those that are higher? I think if you go from a big dose like a 200mg, you will have seen most of the impact by the time you get down really low. You might just find certain side effects are more pronounced over others, maybe???

---------- Post added at 08:44 ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 ----------




Davit will read your riders thread, thanks.

Is he reviewing Jilly Cooper novels now???! :winks::D

[gregcool]

Ohhh crystal.sorry to hear that.try to keep your chin up.i know it must be hard,esp when your not sleeping.hopefully when you get off the traz,it will start to settle and get a norm sleep routen..fingers crossed for you..

[Crystalhiggs]

Lol Terry :)

Yes I've read that the lower doses can cause more problems than the higher! I've seen 3 different GPs now and they've all said the same to taper by 5 a week....

Thanks greg yep not having the best time although I heard my son go to the loo in the night and that's what woke me up, I think it would've been ok if that hadn't happened.

Will have to stop him drinking at 6pm tonight!!!

Anyway glad I'm down to 30, doing lots of positive thinking and mindfulness so hopefully that will help get me through this!

I keep telling myself I'm still me, I'm still here it's only side effects and once the traz is gone I will be properly me again!

[gregcool]

Thats the spirit,possitive thinking..maybe where some ear plugs to be double sure about any sounds in the night..you sound like you are on the road to recovery

[Crystalhiggs]

:) good idea re ear plugs!

I hope greg I'm so fed up of this now. At least I'm going tapering down and not up, up was blooming hard too!!!

How are you today greg?

[gregcool]

I had ear plugs for a while.boots sell them,very cheep and they block out around 80% of sound..well i slept till 9am, went to bed at 11.30 last night.just laying in bed watching tv for a bit..sat are always my worse days as i have nothing to do and its raining hear,so cant go for a walk,so i spend the whole day watching tv,although i am out tonight to a party, so have that to look forward to......

[MyNameIsTerry]

I never wore an eyemask until about a year ago, I thought it was more for planes or celebs on Big Brother! :D I bought one that was reduced to see if it helped because I sleep during the day and I've found it does and they are comfortable unlike the hinderance I thought they would be (you know what its like with insomnia, any little change or physical feeling, sound, etc and your senses prick up!).

I couldn't real wear the eye plugs though as I found them too uncomfortable.

Have you thought of trying something like white noise? There is a sleep programme that you can download that I saw years ago. I think it was called Pzizz. I know some people find these help as they help to block out noise but I seem to recall they also help with the onset of sleep. Something to do with it bringing on the correct brain waves to fall asleep, I think.

[Crystalhiggs]

Ah well, lovely you have tonight to look forward to! Hope it goes really well! :)

---------- Post added at 11:01 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------

I haven't tried white noise Terry but my son always goes to sleep with the fan on so I probably should. Will look for an app!

Yes I am such a light sleeper now :(

Will also give ear plugs and an eye mask a go, worth a try eh?! Thanks for the advice guys as always!

[MyNameIsTerry]

I found when my anxiety was at its worst, any noise would wake me up. Spin forward about 6 months and I was sleeping through people cutting their hedges, drills and even the blokes digging up the street. Dogs used to keep me awake or wake me up and none of that bothers me now.

Its our old nemesis, fight or flight. It increases your senses to seek out danger. So, being anxious a lot means you are more sensitised in general and you have these kinds of problems with sleeping just as people find they jump more when a noise startles them. This does go though as your overall anxiety levels decrease but it can take some time and all you can do is keep working on it, keep the relaxation stuff going, etc and it will reduce in time.

[Crystalhiggs]

Thank you Terry yes it makes sense. I was talking to my neighbour earlier who told me he suffered chronic insomnia for years. What helped him was simply to get to the root of his stress and clear it, then he could relax.

Well I've been trying to clear my anxiety but you know the flipping trazodone just made it so much worse so hopefully soon I'll be happier and more relaxed again.

The original problem that caused me anxiety is long behind me!

[MyNameIsTerry]

Yes, thats a big one. You have to remove anything that could be impacting on it and make sure you have good sleep hygiene. Beyond that, the rest is about what is inside you that is causing it and thats when we come back to anxiety. But this is the long haul.

[Davit]

The original problem is gone, but is the thought that it was there gone too.

[Crystalhiggs]

Wow I slept more than 8 hours last night. That's the most I've slept in 4 months. The power of positive thoughts eh? :)

I think its true that what you focus on grows.

Davit I'm working on that.... :)

[MyNameIsTerry]

Wow I slept more than 8 hours last night. That's the most I've slept in 4 months. The power of positive thoughts eh? :)

I think its true that what you focus on grows.

Davit I'm working on that.... :)

Its not working on my bank account!!! :winks:

Thats great to hear, Crystal. Don't put any pressure on yourself tonight though and take it as it comes. You will either sleep or you wont until your sleep cycles are back to normal but the less you focus on them in that negative way, the more likely you are to have repeat sleeps like this closer together. The Traz might cause it to be all over the place but once you are clear of that stuff, your sleep patterns will be returning themselves to normal without any hinderance from meds.

Try to be positive about tonight and want to go to bed and say to yourself that if you don't sleep at least you are relaxing.

[Crystalhiggs]

You're right Terry I'm not even going to think about tonight or tomorrow just try to enjoy today and focus on the positives.

Sorry about your bank account...! :)

[gregcool]

Well done crystal thats great news,8 hrs sleep.fingers crossed it continues for you..i had 9 hrs.lol..im used to 10.ha ha..well done

[Crystalhiggs]

Greg you have loads of sleep! How was your party? :)

[gregcool]

Party was great thanks...it in my parents sheltered housing home.they have a big hall in the building and often have live music..so last night it was a female singer,she sings all the old songs.its all older people there , 70 plus ,so im the youngest there..but i enjoy it just to spend time with my parents..

[Crystalhiggs]

Great I think it's just good to get out isn't it. And something like that is comfortable and fun, lighthearted. As you said recently when you're alone too much with your thoughts it can drive you crazy, it does with me! Anyway glad you had a good time!

[Davit]

Melatonin is made from Serotonin.

Positive thought uses less Serotonin and allows more to be made into Melatonin. Melatonin helps you sleep.

It makes my day when people get better. Your positive thought is good for my positive thought.

[Crystalhiggs]

:) well I'm having lots of positive thoughts Davit, whenever the intrusive negative thoughts take me over or I feel strange ftom the medication, I just remind myself that I'm ok, I'm still me and it's like a relief, a comfort to know that I'm still here and coming through this. I hope things will just be better from now on! I'll keep working at it regardless. :)

[MyNameIsTerry]

Melatonin is made from Serotonin.

Positive thought uses less Serotonin and allows more to be made into Melatonin. Melatonin helps you sleep.

It makes my day when people get better. Your positive thought is good for my positive thought.

I thought the serotonin conversion to melatonin was slight? And that it may not convert back again so must be washed out in someway but I haven't got to the bottom of all this yet.

I'm interested though because with being on a med that works with serotonin (SNRI) I have found that my very late sleep cycles make be an issue. I know they mess up your circadian rhythm anyway and I've read that night workers sleep less deeply but I'm wondering whether my fatigue during the first half of my day is because my med is triggering more melatonin somehow because I tend to find myself waking up more when the sun is coming up which is the second half of my day and this would be when melatonin is being washed out in favour of serotonin production.

[Davit]

Is melatonin production not light sensitive, I have to find that, be right back.

---------- Post added at 21:10 ---------- Previous post was at 21:01 ----------

Okay, wrong there, melatonin senses the onset of night, it is responsible for circadian rhythm. I think because it has such a small role we probably need little. Does artificial light interfere is that why I can stay up till morning yet close my eyes and go to sleep instantly.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Yes, it does & it will. Some artificial light can influence brain function as well as melatonin production. For instance, blue light activates some parts of the brain to make you more alert (I can't remember which and what it does without checking) and this type of light is associated with screens. You can download programmes/apps to have a cycle for the light on your screens or buy glasses to act as a filter but the glasses can be expensive.

If you switch your SAD lamp on in the morning, it will stimulate you (and can cause mania in people who are bipolar or susceptible to mania) so if you put it on at night I bet it will interfere with your rhythm.

I know some serotonin is converted to melatonin but I'm sure I read it was a small role. I guess that makes sense really since there is barely any serotonin in the brain. I didn't get to the bottom of whether it converts back though. I thought it did, hence some of my worries about my bad sleep cycle with my meds, but I found some research saying it didn't and doing go any further.

[Crystalhiggs]

Pah...rubbish night I clearly didn't have enough melatonin! I did feel a bit anxious when I went to bed last night so I'm sure that impacted it! After 4 good nights (even one at 4 hours!) I thought maybe I'd cracked it but sadly not! Obviously reducing Traz has probably had a part to play too...

Hey ho I am still talking to myself positively .....!

[MyNameIsTerry]

Yeah, but there is a positive in there because you have established a longer number of nights with better sleep, haven't you?

Thats how I think it happens, its correcting the cycle just like how we go from all bad days to some good & bad days and then more good days. Its producing its new pattern and it can take a while for it to be properly established but getting more days back-to-back is certainly an improvement on a few weeks ago. Sometimes it can be helpful to re-read old posts to see how far you have come with an issue.

[Crystalhiggs]

Yes I'm delighted that I had a good run, I'll look on it a merely a blip (Sunday night is often a bad one tbh) and hopefully tonight will be better.

Interestingly, the previous 4 nights I did some yoga before bed, last night I forgot to do it. Could be a coincidence I don't know but won't forget tonight!!!

It was my third night on 30mgs of traz last night, I'm not sure if that could have made a difference too but going on what you said last week about its half life would you think that could be a contributing factor?

[MyNameIsTerry]

Its possible since the 3rd day is when its classed as clinically significant when starting a dose. I haven't checked the "out" ratios but if they are the same then its possible. Its the 3rd half life though, so if the drug has a half life of 24hrs then maybe but if its longer than that, its less likely but when you look at the "in" ratios they are quite sharp inclines over the first 3 days.

However, so is the yoga so its worth trying that again. Yoga does include Mindfulness too so that will help to calm your mind down and reduce the racing thoughts. Mindfulness has also shown to produce similiar brainwaves to sleep so maybe that helped to get you closer to what is required for sleep itself? I'm not sure if thats any different for yoga.

[Crystalhiggs]

Hi it has a short half life, 10-12 hours. Still confused about all the ratio business!

The yoga has definitely made a difference to how I feel just before going to sleep. It makes me feel good, like I'm shaking the day's events away and stretching all my tight muscles out before I relax! And yes I'm practising mindfulness whilst doing it. :)

[MyNameIsTerry]

Clear elimination looks like this per half life:

0 100%
1 50%
2 25%
3 12.50%
4 6.25%
5 3.13%

When its under 5% its no longer clinically significant.

Just think of the people on Diazepam with a half life of 200 hours and they wonder why people get tolerant! I only took those spaced out and what difference did that make when you find something like this out!

What I'm not clear on is the fact you are effectively topping up with your other dose. This may slow this process down a little but it would still be eliminating quicker than what you are taking in after the first day even at a 50% reduced dose so I expect there may be en element of "smoothing" in there as would be said in analysis, but obviously I don't know how that works with pharmacology. There is a member on here NinjaKitty who has a pharmacology degree so could likely answer that one.

Yoga sounds interesting. I know there is an everyday form called Kundalini which is less well known as it was kept "in-house" until more recently than the other forms. This one is gentle version meant for all people so on a rough day, that one might be good as well.

[Crystalhiggs]

Gosh that's so informative thank you! Crikey 200 hours for diazepam? That's madness!
I guess it remains to be seen then but hopefully this gradual lessening won't make too much difference.

Will look up kundalini! I've just been doing some wind down stretches but it definitely makes me feel better and more relaxed.

Will also look up ninja kitty to see if she can shed anymore light in the traz situation.

Thanks again oh knowledgeable one!!! :)

[Crystalhiggs]

Well I thought I'd done all the right things last night.... Sadly my brain thought otherwise, fell asleep just after 4. Woke up just after 5.... 2 bad nights now, off for cbt this morning hopefully that will set me straight!

Wish me luck for today in my zombie state...!!!

Ps My son is in a big athletics tournament this evening - I know I had the thought, what if I don't sleep for the second night in a row. How on earth can I go to the tournament.... So of course I didn't sleep! It's what Sasha Edwards calls special event insomnia! No amount of positive thinking could shift it :(

[gregcool]

Sorry to hear your sleeping is not sorted crystal..two nights on the trot..well hopefully you will get some comfort from your CBT if you can stay awake.lol...anyway good luck today hope it all goes well for you.

[Crystalhiggs]

Thanks greg, it's mad - just looked at my journal and last week I had 5 pretty good nights in a row. They weren't all 8 hours but I got to sleep no problem then Sunday night comes and I feel anxious again, start of the week and all that so I hardly sleep. Then last night I was gutted, 2 bad nights in a row isn't a regular occurrence and I was shattered last night! Obv even worse today!

Anyway I got my boy to school, and going for cbt soon.

How are you greg?

[MyNameIsTerry]

Well, you need to get your sleep sorted before your son gets you some free tickets to fly to whatever city he's in the Olympics at in the future :D

It could be the Traz though. The thing is, you have evidence that you have got better so I would mark it down to being a Traz issue and see where it goes and maybe in a day or two your sleep will revert back to how it was last week so you have more evidence. This could just be how its going to be in adjusted the dosage and with some meds, the lower you get, the more it seems to cause withdrawal when you would think it would be the harsh drops from the high dosages.

[Crystalhiggs]

Yes Terry it could be the traz. This is truly the most challenging time in my life!
I had hoped when I dropped to 30 and the first 2 nights were great, that that was it, my sleep was going to be ok from now on.

Hopefully I'll adjust ASAP and sleep better tonight... Can't even imagine another bad night!

Right off to CBT...

[MyNameIsTerry]

And I thought that would be childbirth :D

Remember before though, how rough it was? Its not as bad as that, is it? You got through that so you will get through this, it will just be tough as it always is but it sounds like your sleep patterns are starting to return inbetween the Traz messing it up temporarily again.

[Crystalhiggs]

Well yes you kind of forget about childbirth years down the line .. :)

Just back from my CBT session, armed with new tools to manage it hopefully! My therapist is fabulous. Wish she could be there in the room when I'm tossing and turning!

We did some visualisation today which I found helpful. And talked a lot about how anxiety works as that is clearly at the root of all this, and like you say the traz which has just messed things up further.

I will beat this!!!

[pulisa]

Good luck Crystal! I'm sorry the traz has mucked your sleep up so much. You're doing all you can to get it out of your system but it may take time.

[Crystalhiggs]

Thank you Pulisa, x

[Crystalhiggs]

Had a good sleep after 2 horrendous nights! Feel slightly wobbly today but just knowing I've slept makes me not worry about it and I know anyway it's probably the traz withdrawal.

Onwards and upwards!!!

[lindy lou 2]

Hi Crystal, how right everyone is.
I am currently, very slowly coming off 3 meds ! It is hard but I am determined to do it, I have just been put on risperdal .5mg to try and help get off the others, but, I am not going higher, and will want to get off them too , when I am off the others. Keep at it, but like Greg said, do it at your own pace. Best of luck Lindy.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Thats good, Crystal. See where you go tonight but try not to let the anxiety make you think about it. Hopefully you will see the same pattern as before with a few bad nights but more good nights. Your sleep diary should reveal the pattern soon I would think.

[Crystalhiggs]

Thanks Lindy and Terry. Last night I was just out like a light no thinking or yoga I was so utterly exhausted!

Lindy good luck to you too, it's a long old journey but we'll get there!
Terry yes am keeping a sleep journal so will see if this week mirrors last week.

Am now going for a long cycle to blow away th cobwebs!

Have a good day all! X

[lindy lou 2]

Hi again Crystal, I don't have to worry about sleeping right now, but one of the meds I am coming off is zopiclone, sleeping tabs, I was on 7.5 mg for years, because being on paroxetine kept my anxiety under control, but wouldn't let me sleep !
Have been off paroxetine since January, now I have been on 3.75 mg of zopiclone for a good while, now, 1/2 of that one night, full one the next . I am going at my own pace, trouble is, I am coming off mirtazapine, very slowly, but they do make me sleep, & the lower the dose the more sedative they are, so I am wondering if I will be able to sleep naturally if I get off everything ! It is so annoying the way we are put on all of these meds & left on them, I am also cutting down from 3 5mg diazapam per day, now on 2 and a half until my next p doc appt on 23 rd of next month. Hopefully I will be ready by then to cut the half out. Not had too many physical side effects, just still so anxious, but, hey, what's new !

[Crystalhiggs]

Hi Lindy, you are doing so so well by the sound of things that's a lot of meds to come down from especially at the same time!

The doc gave me zopiclone (3.75) at the start of all this in February. I took it for 5 weeks but it didn't work very well and I found myself needing 1.5 - 2 per night after a while. I was constantly saying to the doctor that I was afraid of this med and getting addicted to it. You know what she said? You need to sleep, we'll deal with the addiction down the line. That was enough for me so I stopped it cold turkey. Had no withdrawal other than no sleep for 2 nights. I wonder where I'd be now if I'd carried on!

Anyway wishing you well with your tapering off these things. Our bodies are designed to sleep naturally aren't they and mine has for all my life until 4 months ago so it can and will do it again. Yours will too!!!

Have you tried CBT? I've just started it last week, I'm really enjoying it even though I have to work at it!

We are on the right path Lindy, we will look back at this time and be so glad we were strong enough to come through it! X

[lindy lou 2]

Hi Crystal, thanks for the encouragement.
I did find it hard to sleep when I went into an early menopause, 18 years ago, that is when the first then
panic attacks started, I could lie awake all night long, sometimes crying because I had to get up for work ! So I have not slept without meds since then! When my new GP started seeing me, 3 yrs ago, she said " I suppose you have been on zopiclone a long time, I won't take you off them " I was on 7.5 then. As I said I have cut way down now, but the Mirtazapine & exhaustion keep me sleeping, that is it why I am wondering how I will do when I am off it all ?
Will just have to wait & see, at least I am not getting up for work now, I took early retirement from the Civil Service. I wish I was well enough to get a part time job, as it is long days on my own.
Glad you are managing without the zopiclone, I am drinking Red Bush tea , it is supposed to be calming. Linda.