Being knowledgeable of panic\anxiety doesn't help

[dally]

Hi
Having suffered from panic attacks for over 30. I have researched the body\brain\hormones etc thoroughly.
I know what adrenaline does to the body.
I know about fight and flight.
I know about negative thought processes
I know I won't die.
I never have. :lac:

But

This knowledge goes the minute I get that unexlained terrorising fear of doom and impending death.

[Davit]

Keep reading you are missing some important things. The brain doesn't malfunction, it can't but it can react to the wrong instructions. All you mention is in memory. All comes after Amygdala. Amygdala has it's own memory. How does it use it? Where does back feed come in? Where do riders come in? It is all here.

[jayb1]

Dally I totally agree with you, all rational thinking goes out the window when the terror starts.i think I've read every book on panic disorder and it's got to the point now when I'm reading them a panic attack starts. I wake up with that terrified feeling every day and no breathing exercises, distraction or any other tips help. Anyone who has any other ideas please tell me what I can try

[dally]

David,
It this subconscious negative thought that must be scuppering my chances of improvement!
How can I fight my subconscious?

[Davit]

Yes, they are called riders. Doubt is the biggest one. There is a thread on riders. When a person has tried what they think is everything and nothing worked it is easy to doubt. Every thought hits a fork in the road at Hippocampus. Positive goes one way negative goes to the fear centre for contemplation if it is mild, panic if it is serious. Doubt as a negative rider attached to a positive thought makes the thought go to Amygdala instead of bypassing it. "But" is another negative rider. Any condition added to a positive thought will likely be a negative rider. Anything negative no matter how small it may seem goes through Amygdala and causes anxiety. There are people here that would say they are working on it but finding it hard to not add the riders. It is such a natural routine to think them. Positive song, positive mantra, anything to block the rider. If you get a positive moment focus on it to put it in memory. Riders come from memory, you can bury them.
.
I hope people who are doing this can post how they bury their riders. Even if they call them something else.

[Sam123]

I struggled a lot with this, as Davit says when it's such a routine to have these thoughts, most of which i was unaware of. Even with a positive happy thought i would always have a negative creeping in 'What if's' are a big one. As i over analyze everything - some people said i 'think too much'. HA, general anxiety and PTS.

Living in the present is the best thing i've learned/learning to do, it is by no means easy and i have slip ups, i'm aware of them now, everything from the words i use and the tone in which i would say things. It's quite hard to explain when typing, but recently i have found that looking to the future(positively) is really helping and repeating these positive thoughts.

I suppose that is distraction, but what ever it is it's been working well for me - i fill my mind with positive thoughts now, even just small little things. It's repetitive, it has to be, on my recent holiday i was so happy, and i let myself be. I embraced it all every moment and there was no way negatives were getting in there. My partner noticed a huge difference in me.
What if's can be positive. I'm doing things now because i 'want' to, not because i 'have' to or 'should' do. Wanting to do something is positive.


It this subconscious negative thought that must be scuppering my chances of improvement!

Most definitely.

[Nat2015]

I have had a big problem with doubt in the past, in terms of panic, and it still comes up daily when I'm doing something challenging. My counter thoughts are replies to the habitual doubts. So I might think "I can't do this" and I have had to set a counter thought of "yes you can. you are more than capable because ......" and then I find evidence to prove the doubt wrong. The way I see it for myself is that my panic thoughts are incorrect and they need constant and sometimes firm challenging. Here's an analogy I use for myself. I liken the panic to me completely believing at the moment that the sky is yellow instead of blue. Intellectually I "know" its blue but all I can see is yellow. I am constantly challenging the thoughts that its yellow and, now and again, I'm starting to "see" the sky is blue instead of just knowing its blue but seeing yellow. Its the same with the panic. I'm having real glimpses of experiencing no panic at all but its still early days so I slip back again. I have to keep challenging those thoughts, sometimes intensely depending on the feelings and this is what helps to stop the reaction from getting very far. so when I was at the gym today and I kept thinking, "what if I can't get myself home again" (an old favourite!) then I jump straight in there with "well you got yourself here so you are more than capable of getting home again." For me this has had to be repeated probably thousands of times before I started seeing noticeable effects. It's become much more automatic now to use a counter thought straight after a trigger thought has popped up but its taken perseverance and practice. My therapist has trained me to always look for evidence to back up my counter claims. For example I had the fear of collapsing and dying in a panic especially when out of the house. I have had hundreds if not thousands of panics and I have never once collapsed or died! This is the mantra I set when those thoughts start. "I have survived all the worst panics! I didn't die and I didn't go mad" But I have to say it quite forcefully to myself but kindly.

I hope that helped a little and it wasn't too much of a rambling mess! :)

[Sam123]

"I have survived all the worst panics! I didn't die and I didn't go mad" But I have to say it quite forcefully to myself but kindly.

Sounds just like me :D

[Davit]

Good, Thank you.

[dally]

Thank you all for your replies and advice.
Nat. I think I understand advic better with analogies. Thank you