Layers.

[Davit]

Thought is not stored as episodes but as pieces put together to form episodes so these are kept together because they are related. Different degrees of anxiety could have nothing different but the tone or strength of the anxiety and only need key thought to build them, You would in effect have layers to choose from depending on the key. You can also store immense amounts of information because there is no repetition. The same thought can be built into any number of episodes by changing only one key element and they can be accesses fast. But with only one element having to be triggered to get the whole thought you could bounce from one to the other real fast. You could even put together something you didn't know was there anymore. :-) Memory never leaves. Negative flash backs.

Positive thought can't access this even if it does use parts of the same thoughts to build it's episodes. If you use positive enough you will salvage the pathways and in effect stack positives on top of the negatives. Priority moves grudgingly to positive. Positive becomes appropriate. But it is fragile to start. If periodically looking for the negative is your habit you will keep positives foot hold weak. Even send it to the bottom of the stack so to speak.

---------- Post added at 02:25 ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 ----------

This is where, "the trigger is only a trigger" comes in, what you do with it dictates the result.

[Davit]

bump

[MyNameIsTerry]

That makes sense with neuroplasticity which takes time to build new neural pathways so that old are no longer used, yet are retained hence why we need to practice the things we learn in therapy going forward or we risk re-opening those old channels.

Synapses link the neurons. The synapses can be changed all the time to crate the "link" between the neurons that are to be associated with each other. The event can be a combination of these synpse links to neurons and over time more & more can become linked making somethign more ingrained. This makes sense to me when I think about OCD.

A good example I can give of this is intrusive thoughts. This is based on my own experience with my harm-based ones combined with my Magical Thinking but also by following the progressive threads of a small number of people on the OCD board on NMP, some of whom I have spoken to in detail.

So, an example would be my harm thoughts about my parents or later about harming myself or even the sexually intrusive thoughts of others I've seen. The pattern I've observed in these small numbers of cases started off whereby the person found the thoughts deeply distressing and abhorent. Intrusive thoughts in OCD are known to be egodystonc (alien to beliefs). The person on the OCD board would talk about how they hate themselves for them and are scared of what they could do. Spin forward a while and the same person starts creating threads distressed because they are no longer as distressed by these thoughts but have feelings that could be described as "liking" so they worry they are turning into what they feared. This is not the case and it is considered very rare for someone with OCD to act on their intrusive thoughts because regardless of even this, anxiety doesn't reprogramme our schemas or beliefs related to our sense of identity.

I regard that as a load of neurons attached by these synapses or "links" and then as the condition worsens you get more links between neurons that also link back to these. This causes confusion but can alter the autonomic response.

It sounds complicated, and it will be far more complicated that what I've just said or can even try to understand, but think of it as balls with holes and string with plugs.

Ironically, I found my way out of those thought was not to judge them and let them pass as well as reducing my overall levels of anxiety as my GAD is the primary condition. By doing that, I created new links between positive or neutral neurons I guess. The old neurons are still in there with their links, but I have new more often used one that have overridden them.

[ricardo]

Unbelievable

[MyNameIsTerry]

I wrote this last night and it has layers to it:

http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=168981&page=5


Another core belief issue I have had to understand in order to start working on is connected to a fear of trying supplements, foods, new things, etc. It's not an OCD thing as it was born out of my GAD after my first breakdown or most likely originated leading up to it.

A very clear event I had prior to taking a serious dive in mental health where my anxiety greatly increased was when I had been off work for a few months. I was still training, mostly bodyweight work. I was also taking some sports supplements, some which were more advanced. I decided to supplement with a new one on top of this and it was for advanced trainers only. It was also a supplement with a similiar, but more powerful, method of action to ones I was already on. Up to now my anxiety had not been an issue with these supplements and some of them were stimulating. So, at this point my anxiety was geared quite heavily towards my work situation and not affecting as much of my daily life if I could do any of this.

I took this new supplement at the same time as all the others are started rowing. Within a very short time I experienced an adrenaline rush, not a panic attack, they feel very different. I had to sit it out for a time with my heart pounding and worrying about the impact on my asthma. I had panic attacks at work, they were nothing like this. Aside from the worry about the feelings, I was filled with energy, very nervous energy and could have ran & ran.

This was where I developed an issue with supplements and exercise. I couldn't vitamin C or paracetamol and wouldn't even use my asthma medication "just in case" it caused similiar feelings (some inhalers are stiumlating and make you jittery).

I went downhill from here into my first real breakdown and then came Citalopram. I managed to take this despite the fear, probably because I had hopes it would help me and my GP had advised me any side effects were minor (he said "some sweating and loose bowel" which I could easily handle). Wrong. Big mistake. Bad nausea came, I felt hungry yet could barely force myself to eat a biscuit, I stopped sleeping for a couple of days and my anxiety increased whilst I now also had crushing depression which I had never felt before. I was in tears in front of my parents, a 30 year old man. They called the surgery and as my GP was out on rounds in the area, he called by. Despite previously assuring me he had dealt with lots of depression cases, he didn't know what to do and called the Crisis Team out. They came and listened and advised my GP to give me something to help me sleep and see if that helped me through the side effects. It did. I had to see my GP the next day and I started 14 days of Zopiclone. It lost it's effect after a week but I was still sleeping enough on it but was exhausted upon waking for hours, couldn't eat and struggled just getting out of bed for an hour each morning. I felt drugged, which I assumed was the Zopiclone still working despite not sleeping more than 5-6 hours. The Crisis Team came back after a couple of weeks to check and advised me I shouldn't be taking the stuff daily but every other day. I had been on it nearly a month now so my GP was claiming he didn't want to give anymore. I had a final 7 days and I spaced it out every other day to come off it, which I just did because it was how I should have taken it before. I wasn't given any advice by either on how to withdraw from it. The first few times it was a typical pattern of not sleeping to sleeping well until it became more of a bit of both. It took months to correct my sleep though but this would have been the Citalopram affecting me at tghe early stages too.

This did an immense amount of damage to me. I just wasn't prepared at all. The second time around I treated it as a "worse before better" scenario and whilst it was very hard (and very different going on a SNRI), I just kept going and didn't bother with my GP other than updating him at the appointments he wanted. He wouldn't admit it was the SNRI anyway, despite the PIL clearly detailing the rarer side effects I suffered. Another dent in my confidence of GP's.

So, this had a deep impact on me as these events were traumatic to me and only reinforced the previous ones. I was developing some core beliefs around use of medication, taking any pills or liquids and it expanded out into food issues on the SNRI which I didn't have before starting that med!

BUT is is about the supplements? Is it about the exercise too as I was afraid to do that? No. It was pretty obvious why I was afraid to do exercise, the similiar sensations to panic & anxiety and something many of us will have experienced. BUT these weren't core beliefs in their own right. Why? Because it was not fearing the pills themselves but the effects and the only reasons the effects were an issue was because they made we panic or anxious or could be seen to stimulate me to feel similiar sensations.

So, the core belief was deeper than this. Simply put, these were attached cores. the exercise one was attached in a slightly different way to the rest but the connection is ultimately the same when you drill down.

The core belief was clearly panic & anxiety symptoms themselves and my fear of experiencing them. This is because the fear I had now gained was the same as the one I gained from my panic & anxiety at work so I had made connections between these isolated events and created these attached cores.

I can work on attached cores, and have done over the past year or so BUT on their own they will never remove that original core belief. I can make improvements to my life to exercise and take supplements again but it will simply strip a few petals from that Vicious Flower and learn the true cure in place. This core can keep working against me to replace those old petals with new ones or reinstate those old ones again or even both to make the situations even more complex and potentially intense/life-limiting.

So, I have been working on my fear of the supplements and exercise here & there. I have now started to tackle supplements in a more aggresive approach which is paying off more. Since I am also seeing improvements in how I feel from some of these supplements, I am building new core beliefs or attached cores stating how I belief them to be a positive thing. In essense, at least some petals on a Virtuous Flower. This is also creating new positive memories to push those old negative ones further back into obscurity.

Whilst I tackled the food issue head on at the start (I was panicking eating due to the location, the settee, being where some of the worst panic had been in my relapse and how the change in bodily sensations scared me) with a distraction techniq but I have felt it raise it's head again from time to time so it still is in there and needs some work. It's more minor though.

My true core belief about anxiety & panic symptoms is a complex one and attached to many other issues than simply the above. This is a massive one, so removing petals can help me get closer to it rather than tackling to hardest issues all in one go.

So, I have several interchangeables going on in here, such as:

1) Fear of panic/anxiety symptoms
2) Fear of loss of control once ingested
3) Growing anticipatory anxiety
4) Fear of continuance of these issues
5) Fear of new issues joining & reinforcing existing ones (attached cores)
6) Fear of new memories that are negative

Each of these is linked to the various events that occured in varying degrees once a traumatic event occurred.

These are also in layers because they are not simply attached cores around a central core belief because some of them have slightly different issues so there are layers to the cores involved just as there are to the memories.

These can be unpicked by tackling those core beliefs (and the attached ones where the central cores are too big at this stage) and unlinking the synapses to those neurons in favour of new & positive ones.

By creating new positive memories & beliefs I cut down on using those negative "keys" and start to use positive ones to access positive memories & beliefs about these situations. Even as I tackled attached cores, this is going to mean more regaular positive thinking which has a cumulative effect and I have new positive neurons that can be accessed by these synapses more & more so the shift is to positive thinking which is known to change how our brains work.

[pulisa]

Terry, are you making any headway regarding trying to modify your sleep patterns?

[MyNameIsTerry]

Terry, are you making any headway regarding trying to modify your sleep patterns?

Yes, hence not being on here so much the last fortnight. I'm trying to spend a long amount of time breaking it and keeping late nights very restricted right now (1-2 days) and trying to get more sleep. The impact onto the sleep itself in terms of waking isn't doing doing much right now but part of the problem is that I sleep deeper in the last half of the time I'm allowing. After a stint with this it will be something more to force the waking time forward maybe even staying up for days without sleep or going out early and staying up for a day to see what that acheives.

[pulisa]

I'm really pleased to hear that and I know it can't be easy at all to undertake such a major overhaul. It will be a huge breakthrough for you and I'm sure you'll get there in your own time.

[pulisa]

I had no idea that melatonin suppression could be so harmful to a person's wellbeing so I'm glad that you are prioritising your disordered sleeping patterns. Recovery doesn't always have to come out of textbooks and it's quite acceptable to go back to basics. It's the end product that matters.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I'm not sure what harm you are suggesting has been done to my wellbeing. I've had this problem for years, long before I joined NMP, and even when I successfully worked for years too and was making a recovery. I know my sleep patterns impact on me physically & mentally in certain ways but I'm rational and they don't impact on my judgement.

Recovery can be achieved in many ways, it's what works for the person. For me, it's important to understand and work on issues holding me back. I will (and have) used self help techniques too but I'm wel aware that they won't mean recovery for me as they didn't help prevent a relapse before. So, I take what I need from various sources.

[pulisa]

I apologise as I didn't make myself clear in that I had just read an article in a broadsheet on sleep disorders/deprivation in middle age and I was surprised to read that melatonin suppression can trigger various conditions such as diabetes. Women are being advised to avoid night shift work if they are in a certain at-risk group for a different condition.

I wasn't referring to your particular wellbeing, just to the evidence from a medically proven and published text which is currently doing the rounds. I think sleep and sleeping patterns will become a matter of great interest and even greater understanding in years to come as it's something which we all have to do to a greater or lesser degree of course.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Ah ok, I understand now.

I'm sure it's had a big impact on me. I did notice that fatigue became a real issue for me in the previous 2 winters but not so the rest of the time. Prior to that, it wasn't an issue BUT what had changed was that my sleep pattern had become much later so that I was rising in darkness and going to bed in the light. This is worse now so until I change this, I won't know how much it has been causing problems. I haven't been healing as well and all these aches & pains have been getting worse. Supplements are at least helping with the back issue, bad knees, bad hips, etc.

Another reason I could have a problem is medication impacting on this cycle. The natural rhythms of Serotonin and Adrenaline are affected by daylight. I am taking a med that attempts to stop wastage of those neurotransmitters. So, this could also be a problem or be combined with the above one and until I rule them out, I just won't know if this fatigue is connected.

I think you might find some more articles out there about other conditions. Things like calcium play a role in these processes too and that could bring in other conditions for women of those ages. It wouldn't surprise me.

I've read before that nightworkers are more prone to depressive episodes. Makes sense really, everything is upside down. I know the 2 rhythms discussed do adapt to a new 24 hour cycle but since we are controlled by sunlight, reducing it is bound to have a bad effect on us.

I also feel the need to point out that this isn't me...


https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRIyJ00uAJGljV35NBw7meSH78CYN8sY jcp8YGKV6NdTwhnXDvn


...but I'm sure you weren't suggesting that :D

[blue moon]

Àre you sure that is not you Terry?:winks:

[MyNameIsTerry]

Yes ok...but I'm more a thong guy :D

[blue moon]

I imagined you more of a budgie smuggler î love your lovely lady friend you both are spunks...lol

[ricardo]

Thought is not stored as episodes but as pieces put together to form episodes so these are kept together because they are related. Different degrees of anxiety could have nothing different but the tone or strength of the anxiety and only need key thought to build them, You would in effect have layers to choose from depending on the key. You can also store immense amounts of information because there is no repetition. The same thought can be built into any number of episodes by changing only one key element and they can be accesses fast. But with only one element having to be triggered to get the whole thought you could bounce from one to the other real fast. You could even put together something you didn't know was there anymore. :-) Memory never leaves. Negative flash backs.

Positive thought can't access this even if it does use parts of the same thoughts to build it's episodes. If you use positive enough you will salvage the pathways and in effect stack positives on top of the negatives. Priority moves grudgingly to positive. Positive becomes appropriate. But it is fragile to start. If periodically looking for the negative is your habit you will keep positives foot hold weak. Even send it to the bottom of the stack so to speak.

---------- Post added at 02:25 ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 ----------

This is where, "the trigger is only a trigger" comes in, what you do with it dictates the result.

Is it possible for anyone to translate this into a more simplistic form so that us laymen can understand, as these posts seem to be bumped up all the time, so I guess they must be relevant and awfully important. Thank you in advance.

[pulisa]

Positive thinking encourages positive thinking and relegates negative thinking to a lesser rung of the memory ladder....I think?

[blue moon]

Sorry ricardo but I cannot explain it all in layman"s terms,I have lost the plot today.:hugs: