View Full Version : Enabling Vs Tough Love
I am posting here to stop another thread being hijacked.
I understand that many of you get frustrated by the fact that some posters seem to ignore the sensible advice and cling onto their fears.
I do not believe in enabling people to explore their fears which has been a common theme on here in the past, however some of the sarcastic and nasty comments being made are OTT in my opinion.
Trust me I have been as guilty of it in the past and have learned that it serves no-one.
The poster goes away feeling victamised and bullied and I feel frustrated, put upon and ignored.
If a poster is annoying you to the extent that you feel the need to accuse them of attention seeking or trolling perhaps it is time to ignore that person's posts.
Until you are able to converse with them in a manner that makes them want to listen to you little is going to be achieved.
Just my thoughts, and believe me I have been around here long enough to know how things tend to go.
Thanks for taking the time to read and please keep your responses respectful.
Elen
With all due respect it isn't that easy to ignore some people. Some need to be called out on certain things. A hijacked thread is one which gets taken over and taken off topic. Most threads go off topic to some degree. The thread that is being referred to as hijacked did not appear that way to me. We are all adults here and I understand the need for reasonable moderation but over moderation is another matter. I also think that we have the right to call a spade a spade. If we don't then I figure it won't be long before I am banned because I will continue to do that. Sobeit.
I support swajj with that view.
With all due respect it isn't that easy to ignore some people. Some need to be called out on certain things. A hijacked thread is one which gets taken over and taken off topic. Most threads go off topic to some degree. The thread that is being referred to as hijacked did not appear that way to me. We are all adults here and I understand the need for reasonable moderation but over moderation is another matter. I also think that we have the right to call a spade a spade. If we don't then I figure it won't be long before I am banned because I will continue to do that. Sobeit.
To clarify I did not say that any one post had been hijacked, I just felt that this post would be better on its own rather than starting a discussion on a post relating so a single member's problem.
I am a Chat Room Mod not Forum Admin. I have absolutely no more authority here than any other member, yourself included. I am merely posting as a long time member of NMP.
In MY personal opinion some recent remarks are unlikely to persuade the OP's to listen and evaluate what is being said to them. The normal knee jerk reaction to being accused is to defend yourself.
As I said it is just my opinion and others are more than able to disagree.
Elen
Yes I get that Elen and I just did disagree. I don't see that thread being hijacked. It is still on topic so it isn't hijacked. The thread that was deleted was not hijacked either. Not according to my understanding of a hijacked thread. I would say that thread evolved. Pulisa thank you but don't. I don't want you getting banned. I've been banned from other forums for being too outspokem. I'm used to it. Lol
Yes I get that Elen and I just did disagree. I don't see that thread being hijacked. It is still on topic so it isn't hijacked. The thread that was deleted was not hijacked either. Not according to my understanding of a hijacked thread. I would say that thread evolved. Pulisa thank you but don't. I don't want you getting banned. I've been banned from other forums for being too outspokem. I'm used to it. Lol
Sorry I repeat "To clarify I did not say that any one post had been hijacked, I just felt that this post would be better on its own rather than starting a discussion on a post relating so a single member's problem."
No accusation of threads past or present being hijacked. I simply feel that this subject merited a thread of its own.
We are in danger here of focusing intently on one sentence while ignoring the actual message I was trying to convey.
Elen
I read most posts on here when my anxiety is under control, and I try and contribute as much as I can to try and help people through whatever they're going through.
I'm going to be completely honest, I've noticed a trend here lately, where it seems that some members of this forum have suddenly come into possession of extremely high horses....
I think each and every one of us needs to remember that we all suffer from the same thing here, albeit different degrees of it. Right now I am in quite a rational state of mind, but if I was to go back and re-read some of my posts from say, September last year, when I was at my whits end waiting for an MRI result of my brain, I think I'd see myself quite differently. And the problem that some people seem to be having here is that they are forgetting that someone who is in the midst of a health anxiety panic is NOT THINKING RATIONALLY. Therefore trying to rationalise their posts in your otherwise rational mind is going to be difficult. I feel like a lot of people have decided that it's tough love all round for everybody now because that's what everyone needs. When I first joined this board last year it was actually a very different place. It was a lot kinder, and it felt safer. Thankfully a lot of people helped me on here, but I'll be honest, if I had been met with the attitudes of certain people here now, back in September, it would have made me feel awful.
I agree that sometimes tough love is required, but maybe let's reign it in a little bit and remember that people often stumble upon this place in a terrible state, and are looking for some sort of help, reassurance or maybe just someone to speak to. Let's not turn this into the rest of the internet.
countrygirl
22-07-15, 11:04
I agree with Kaye and Elen, I have been a member here almost since it started and in the past everyone was very supportive, if they could not offer advice or the poster seemed to not be listening then they still posted understanding if not helpful replies.
I had a few years off because I am managing my HA much better which probably comes with age and experience:) and have recently come back daily in the hope of being of help to people as I totally understand how they are feeling and I was unpleasantly surprised at the agressive replies. Not everyone even with a lifetime of therapy and or medication can overcome HA, they probably have tried and failed so to be lectured at about not trying hard enough to be cured is not nice at all to see.
I also understand how frustrating it is to read posts where the original poster seems to totally ignore all replies and suggestions and just moans constantly but that is health anxiety, refusal to be reassured and wanting to constantly ask and see reassurance. In this instance I may point out nicely that the poster does not seem to be taking any advice but also telling them I understand without being in any way agressive.
Compared to years ago there are very few people on her and I wonder if having dismissive or agressive replies to posts is sending people away?
What if a member is constantly posting things that are quite clearly either exaggerated or completely untrue? What if they're posting constant stories and examples from Dr Google which will in turn set off alarm bells in other people who might otherwise have been making progress?
Certain issues I can understand and tolerate when people are hysterical. Like someone waiting on an MRI result or someone suffering a rather alarming symptom. Others, well, frankly, are absurd. I've saw examples of people posting saying they were terrified because they'd drank too much water and were scared they'd die from it. I've saw examples of people posting saying their nostril was blocked and it was scaring them senseless. To call these examples anything other than absurd is to simply give that fear credit. If you respond with "aww honey I know it's scary, but just relax, you'll be fine..." is doing nothing more than feeding the fear. If you curtly and assertively tell this person that their concern is utterly ridiculous then at least you're enforcing the idea.
Also, I have to disagree that there's an angry attitude straight off the bat. I'll respond to almost any query that I think I can assist with, but if it goes from one fear to the next, if my response only encourages that person to go off and look for something else to be fearful of, then I'm simply not helping, I'm enabling. I'm giving that person a security net, a place to act out safety seeking behaviour. We all know that safety seeking behaviour like constantly visiting doctors etc is a cycle that must be broken, so what makes that type of thing any different?
If the person knows I have a limit and will eventually constantly respond with "deal with your anxiety", it discourages that person from using me as a safety net. This, in my opinion, will help in the long run as its breaking the safety seeking cycle.
It's a grey area, of course, and there's probably a few occasions when I was a bit of an ******* when I really shouldn't have been, but nothing I ever write here is designed to hurt anyone. If I'm assertive, it means I've reached a point that I feel I'm actually not helping and I want to make this person realise it.
MyNameIsTerry
22-07-15, 11:22
Certain issues I can understand and tolerate when people are hysterical. Like someone waiting on an MRI result or someone suffering a rather alarming symptom. Others, well, frankly, are absurd. I've saw examples of people posting saying they were terrified because they'd drank too much water and were scared they'd die from it. I've saw examples of people posting saying their nostril was blocked and it was scaring them senseless. To call these examples anything other than absurd is to simply give that fear credit. If you respond with "aww honey I know it's scary, but just relax, you'll be fine..." is doing nothing more than feeding the fear. If you curtly and assertively tell this person that their concern is utterly ridiculous then at least you're enforcing the idea.
Something I have said a few times now is that the HA board isn't just posted on by people with HA. I see threads that are clearly OCD, usually contamination and some of the HIV/AIDS ones and fear of developinng more serious mental illness.
So, you could say that someone terrified of damage due to swallowing a small piece of glass is "absurd". But not in OCD circles and it would not be answered in that manner on the OCD board.
So, I disagree 100% with you on this point. Someone's OCD contamination fears are as relevant as any HA thread and should not be treated any different.
I'm not stated you have though, I haven't see you do it on OCD threads, but I do think people just see the HA board and make an assumption its always HA. It's not and I know more than one person who posts on here who has OCD.
I think people should take that into account. To call it absurd in an instance like that would just tell me the issue is ignorance.
I used to touch hundreds of items a day many times over in my OCD, some because of my intrusive thoughts. Trivial?
In regards to giving fear credit, is even 1% of the threads/posts on the whole of this forum since it began a credible fear? I doubt it. If you took that 1% to a forum of non anxiety sufferers, what would they say? Isn't that the point of a disorder, fearing things that we shouldn't.
You are right that these issues need to be tackled but they can be credible to the person.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration and even felt it myself in a recent thread, but I just think in our moments of absolute frustration, we should just take a breath and remind ourselves of a time in our own lives where we were driven almost to insanity over an irrational health worry.
I totally agree that some of the things posted here, like the ones you mentioned can seem ridiculous and might even SEEM almost like they are mocking, but let's just all make an effort to assume these people truly are worried, no matter how trivial the symptom, and post encouraging messages. If it then carries on and becomes clear that the kind of help offered on this forum is not going to help them, then we can post what we think they should do, and then I say we just leave it there, rather than (as in a recent thread), let it carry on for 7+ pages with a constant back and forth. I agree again that it can get to a point where it becomes 'enabling', in which case I think we all take a step back and back off, rather than risk the OP feeling attacked/ganged up on, even if that's not actually what's going on. I really like thinking of this place as a safe environment where people will be understanding. It helped me HUGELY in the last few months of last year. I want other people to feel the same way.
Also, I agree with that Terry said. What might seem like a ridiculous issue to us, is a very real thing for someone with HA, OCD etc. We should be understanding of all conditions as these are genuine mental health issues.
From an outside perspective and having read and responded to innumerable posts, it becomes quite evident (to me) which posters are seeking help and which are just feeding the dragon. There are those that respond to a cyber slap and those that just want tea and sympathy. That latter being prevalent on this forum ad others IMO.
In the big picture, these are just words and words are open to interpretation. One's writing skills, comprehension and state of mind can influence a response and interpretation.
Certain threads have caused an visceral emotional response recently. Direct questions go unanswered. Facts are skewed and contradictions abound. One can plainly see the level of psychosis unfolding and it's alarming and frustrating knowing nothing being said can or will help. When members, many of which are dealing with some pretty persistent demons of their own, are advising getting help, the OP should take notice but that's very often not the case. Subsequently, I understand the level of frustration.
There's much more I can say concerning this subject but my day beckons.
Positive thoughts
Tea and sympathy gets you absolutely nowhere with HA. It's nice and comforting though but is this what any poster wants? Maybe it is?
The thing is you never know. Maybe all a poster wants is to let it out to people who understand what they are going through and who aren't going to respond with things like "oh pull yourself together" or "get over it" like many who don't understand health anxiety tend to say. Sometimes, just having someone say to you "I understand what you're going through, I've been there and come out the other side" can be enough to settle nerves a little and get you through a period of anxiety.
Why are so many people talking (writing) in riddles ?What is an OP I Know what an OAP is , because I am one.:)
Which thread was hijacked so that one can read it and see what the problem is/was.
I like this comment from Fishmanpa
In the big picture, these are just words and words are open to interpretation. One's writing skills, comprehension and state of mind can influence a response and interpretation.
If we can generally help or advise someone and they never resond it's disappointing but it's the Internet.
There is definitely more aggression being shown by some members to others but usually through frustration but as has been mentioned by many this is a site for people with a vast range of mental problems and some are more disabling than others.
My beef mainly is that many a thread goes completely off track from the original question or discussion and also several threads involve just two people , one asking and one answering, and one feels nervous to step into the discussion.
I would also say that attention seeking titles to threads could be watered down a bit.
What is an OP
OP = Original Poster
Urban Dictionary is a good source for acronyms. I've been immortalized with my word and definition of "Porch Cramp" ~lol~
Positive thoughts
OP = Original Poster
Urban Dictionary is a good source for acronyms. I've been immortalized with my word and definition of "Porch Cramp" ~lol~
Positive thoughts
LOL I love this.
It may well be the case sometimes, but I think we should strive to give people the benefit of the doubt on here, and keep it a safe, friendly place. I'd hate for people to come here, read some threads and then feel scared to post in case people thought they were lying or something.
Kaye, there are some very specific threads here to which we are referring.
Nobody just comes on here and replies coldly to people in genuine distress.
It's when the "genuine" bit is questionable that I feel it is reasonable to be a bit suspicious.
And no, we will never know for sure as we are not 100% sure of people's circumstances.
When you look at the pure definition in the title of this thread, they are polar opposites.
Enabling in this sense is "tea and sympathy" and that is not beneficial to the HA sufferer. Perhaps a better word would be "Empathy". One can offer support without enabling. I've said this many times; While it's comforting to know you're not alone and there is a cathartic benefit to writing out your feelings, ultimately, in many cases, the forum feeds the dragon. The focus should be on ways to overcome as opposed to "I know how you feel". In other words; "I've felt that way before and this is what I did to overcome it".
Tough Love is an expression used when someone treats another person sternly with the intent to help them in the long run. Even though it may seem and is sometimes harsh to read, that, IMO, is the intent. It's not always pleasant to look in the mirror and see yourself how others see you or how you really are being at that moment. So things like the example of an irrational fear of drinking too much water or bats biting you in the night while you sleep or some of the other 1 in a billion fears on the boards, while legitimate for the person feeling the fear, is totally irrational to many/most others.
Positive thoughts
Maybe it's just me, but I can't see why anyone would come here with the purpose of drawing people in, worrying them, and then disappearing or using what you've said against them. Maybe it might come across that way, but in reality their actions are due to the state they've gotten themselves in?
I might be completely wrong here but it just seems odd to me that someone would do that :/
Maybe it's just me, but I can't see why anyone would come here with the purpose of drawing people in, worrying them, and then disappearing or using what you've said against them. Maybe it might come across that way, but in reality their actions are due to the state they've gotten themselves in?
I might be completely wrong here but it just seems odd to me that someone would do that :/
It seems strange to me too, Kaye but unfortunately some people get satisfaction from these behaviours. The internet makes people easy targets.
Sadly Kaye it does happen, I too learn the hard way.
Maybe it's just me, but I can't see why anyone would come here with the purpose of drawing people in, worrying them, and then disappearing or using what you've said against them. Maybe it might come across that way, but in reality their actions are due to the state they've gotten themselves in?
I might be completely wrong here but it just seems odd to me that someone would do that :/
This is the internet and it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Trolls come in all shapes and sizes and populate the underside of bridges in forums all across the virtual world. I've seen it on other forums and even on the cancer boards of all places. People are whacked in general far and above legitimate illnesses be it physical or mental.
That being said, pertaining to this thread, mental illness and the need to feed the dragon can make people do and say almost anything. The examples on this forum and others are many. In many ways, it's like an addition and the subsequent behaviors are similar. When you call someone out on it, you're met with a more outrageous explanation, defensiveness, denial or out and out deflection and/or silence.
I had a situation fairly recently when I questioned such a thing. The posts were as plain as day in that the poster said something and then a week later said they were doing the very thing they said they had already done. When questioned, I was told "Ohhh, I meant to say......." There's just no way at all that was true and besides, the verbiage was totally 180* different. There was no question what was "meant" by the words.
I've made the comparison of mental illness, in particular anxiety/HA, being similar to a co-dependent/abusive relationship. The person knows it's unhealthy but it's all they know and despite the negative and detrimental aspects of their situation, will actually defend their actions. Again, there are examples of that on the boards like smoking and fearing lung cancer or continuing to drink when the aftermath causes more anxiety. How often have you seen a post where the poster says they feel anxious because they're not feeling anxious?
There's much to this subject and I think it's a good thing to examine it as it may help others see or recognize behaviors they haven't seen before in themselves.
Positive thoughts
Outing myself as a jaded and highly suspicious individual, I abhor the idea of vulnerable people being duped and manipulated.
I think this thread gives people the opportunity to discuss a variety of significant issues affecting how the HA board operates as Fishmanpa has already said. The co-dependency issue is a very important one to take into account, in my opinion
Haha don't get me wrong, I'm not completely naive and have often thought of myself as being overly pessimistic sometimes, but I guess with this particular thing, a HA message board, I can't imagine the type of person you'd have to be to come here and basically mock people that are genuinely suffering... Fishmanpa... the fact you said you've seen this even on cancer message boards shocks me...
Anyway... I think we can safely say that the majority of people on this board, and certainly the ones in this thread are all genuine and simply want to help others. I'm personally glad I'm a member here and hope I didn't come across as if I was criticising people too much for their responses. Maybe I am being too naive in regards to the particular couple of recent cases on this board...
I think this thread gives people the opportunity to discuss a variety of significant issues affecting how the HA board operates as Fishmanpa has already said. The co-dependency issue is a very important one to take into account, in my opinion
Giving people that opportunity was one of the reasons I posted this and also why I didn't add it onto anyone elses post.
Things are rarely black and white and it is good to get others perspective on things.
Over the years I have learned a lot from this forum. I have a rough understanding of various mental issues that I never even knew existed before but above all I think that I have learned a measure of tolerance and how hard it can be to maintain a non judgmental stance.
I do not suffer from HA but I do have other "issues" that people may think are silly, Most of the time I know when I am being totally irrational but it still helps to express my fears. I am not a great believer in labels for illnesses but I do believe that irrational and complulsive behavours and thoughts can take many forms.
I was going to use the word empathy in the title then decided that might imply that I thought people were not trying to be helpful, and this is not what I think. The reason I chose enabling is because of the co dependent way threads have been known to go in the past with people feeding each others fears.
There are many people on here who's common sense but respectful posts I greatly admire and some of you have contributed to this post.
Speaking only for myself here, but I can think of two members I personally have lost the place with. One seems to really really want to have some terminal illness, to the point there's almost an "I'll be the first one to say 'told you so' when I'm diagnosed with a horrific illness" attitude, the other is, quite frankly, telling lies to make their fears seem more credible.
Neither of these cases, in my opinion, warrant sympathy. Why would you want to "rub it in" to someone who's trying to tell you that you're fine and have nothing to worry about? Why would you want to lie about the severity of your symptoms? If you're genuinely worried, surely you wouldn't need to lie to anyone to give it credit?
There are people here in the absolute pitts of despair, and I for one want very much so to help them. I will not, however, give my sympathy and help to a person who only wants me to tell them the worst, or to someone who is pissing about making up drama in some bizarre quest for attention.
Are there anxiety disorders that cause attention seeking behaviours? Yes, I suppose there is. Does that mean I should stand idly by and watch someone fall victim to the symptom? I don't think I should, no. I think I should be trying to tell these people that their fears, thoughts and perceptions, while real to them, are ultimately not real. Isn't that what this forum is for? Or is it just a place for people to give well meaning but ultimately ineffective responses?
Some people need a warm hug and a gentle word. Some people need a stern lecture and a kicked ass. Trying to differentiate between the two is tricky on the other side of an Internet connection, but I like to think that most of the time, the majority of us here start out by giving people a genuine and well meaning response.
MyNameIsTerry
22-07-15, 23:05
Tough Love is an expression used when someone treats another person sternly with the intent to help them in the long run. Even though it may seem and is sometimes harsh to read, that, IMO, is the intent. It's not always pleasant to look in the mirror and see yourself how others see you or how you really are being at that moment. So things like the example of an irrational fear of drinking too much water or bats biting you in the night while you sleep or some of the other 1 in a billion fears on the boards, while legitimate for the person feeling the fear, is totally irrational to many/most others.
Positive thoughts
That doesn't mean they are a candidate for tough love though. Think about the OCD cases as I said earlier. Someone with contamination OCD may easily display what you are saying here. If they are a case for tough love then they need to steer clear of the HA board as theirs fears may be seen, by some, as less worthy than the many equally irrational fears of serious illnesses that are posted daily.
I have no idea which specific threads you are referring to as I have not been around enough recently to read all the threads. However, I have been on these HA forums in one form or another since the late 90s and I have noticed a trend with this one more recently where some people are giving others a hard time by almost accusing them of not dealing with their anxiety.
I do kind of understand this, as it can be mightily frustrating when you take the time to type out a reasoned, supportive and constructive reply to someone and they seem to take no notice of it and carry on with their destructive train of thought. However on the other hand, recovery from HA is a journey and some are further along that road than others. I know I have been through times when I am SO focused on having an illness that I am 100% sure I am suffering with, that those thoughts have consumed me entirely. I've wanted to be able to engage with people who are talking about the possibility of that not being true but in those moments of acute anxiety, it is impossible to believe that you are wrong and others are right, and you actually believe that they are deluded for not seeing things accurately as you see them.
I'm rambling here and I hope you will forgive me, but I think sometimes when we are offering advice to someone who seems very resistant, we do need to think 'there but for the grace of god go I' and remember that the kind words we say to other people may not have any apparent affect at the time but may be stored up for another time when the person is ready to receive them.
If you ain't got nothing nice to say then say nothing at all....... ignore the post.
Health Anx is awful.... if a doctor cannot give reasurrance then how will we?
I've seen this over the years on here, we all suffer with our own disabilities, some are needier than others.
We can only give our own experiences and sometimes our anxiety levels are just so high we cannot take that advice on board.
If you see a poster is continually posting and ignoring your advice, they are probably in such a bad place. Move on from it if its annoying you. Its as easy as that.
That doesn't mean they are a candidate for tough love though. Think about the OCD cases as I said earlier. Someone with contamination OCD may easily display what you are saying here. If they are a case for tough love then they need to steer clear of the HA board as theirs fears may be seen, by some, as less worthy than the many equally irrational fears of serious illnesses that are posted daily.
I've saw some posts from people that I have to say I found quite concerning, some of the symptoms mentioned were indeed worrying. I won't give examples because that's just asking for trouble. So I guess what I'm saying is that, generally, 99% of queries here will of course be minor ailments or nothing at all physical. However, the symptoms sound, to me (and I consider myself to be reasonably knowledgable on medical subjects) pretty concerning and I can understand the concern a little easier.
For something like OCD, which I have no experience of and, honestly, know little about, if I've ever called any of those queries absurd or whatever then it is simply a case of me not recognising OCD. It's much easier for someone who actually has the condition to recognise the signs of it, after all. Maybe I need to educate myself on that aspect of anxiety, and it's a point well taken.
When it comes to responding, each person has a style or way of answering. In this medium, it's difficult at best to determine the manner in which to respond. From what I've seen and from my own personal experience, a sympathetic response is what is most often offered first. As the posts and threads continue, you begin to see the frustration and "tough love" responses. One cannot determine, based on the initial posts, what actual issue they're dealing with (OCD, depression, HA etc.), although there are some obvious clues many times.
Personally, I have a certain "candor" in my posts along with as much logic as I can muster as well as some hopefully well placed humor (sarcastic or not). Having a daughter that suffers from depression and anxiety, my responses are not much different than the responses and conversations I have with her. I'm a firm believer in therapy and meds as needed.
That being said, the diversity and level of illness of the sufferers is so extreme that again, it makes discernment challenging when it comes to responding. For one person, that style works and for others, it can feel like an attack. Either way, I feel I'm being truthful.
Again, I go back to the point that for many, the forum facilitates their HA. It comes down to the individual to take the steps toward healing. It's really no different than recovering from a physical illness. For me, recovering from the physical illnesses requires hard work both from a physical standpoint as well as a mental standpoint. It's really a simple choice. Either do it and take the steps forward or not do it and deal with the consequences.
While there are obstacles to overcome from many aspects (financial, insurance, country of origin etc.), It still comes down to the inner fortitude to take positive steps toward healing.
Positive thoughts
MyNameIsTerry
23-07-15, 04:29
If you ain't got nothing nice to say then say nothing at all....... ignore the post.
Health Anx is awful.... if a doctor cannot give reasurrance then how will we?
I've seen this over the years on here, we all suffer with our own disabilities, some are needier than others.
We can only give our own experiences and sometimes our anxiety levels are just so high we cannot take that advice on board.
If you see a poster is continually posting and ignoring your advice, they are probably in such a bad place. Move on from it if its annoying you. Its as easy as that.
Is this a personal view?
Yes Terry this is my personal view.
I personally don't think there is a perfect solution, if in fact one is required.
As already mentioned we are all different, we express ourselves in different ways, some more articulate than others but that has never been a barrier, but sometimes it really is hard to give genuine advise or reassurance as we are not doctors (not that I have a great deal of trust in them) and can only really reply if one has experienced something which appears to be the same as the concern.Reading up on it and then replying could be misinterpreted.
I suffer badly from HA but know that the answers lie within myself. For me personally I would not make any progress by going down the tea and sympathy route. We are all very different of course but we mustn't make excuses for ourselves. At some point in time all HA sufferers have got to take responsibility for their recovery. We are fortunate to have a choice in how we go about this.
I greatly admire FMP for his patience and for the time he spends trying to help people on the HA board after all he has gone and is still going through with his treatment.
I suffer badly from HA but know that the answers lie within myself. For me personally I would not make any progress by going down the tea and sympathy route. We are all very different of course but we mustn't make excuses for ourselves. At some point in time all HA sufferers have got to take responsibility for their recovery. We are fortunate to have a choice in how we go about this.
I greatly admire FMP for his patience and for the time he spends trying to help people on the HA board after all he has gone and is still going through with his treatment.
Couldn't agree more, tea and sympathy does no-one any good. I too admire FMP, among others. He tends to be very pragmatic without being aggressive.
I understand we do all have slightly different viewpoints on what is acceptable and not on a forum, which is great, but it is nice that on the whole the posts on this thread have been respectful of each other's differences.
Elen
My health anxiety has been quite severe at different times over the last couple of years. I have rarely come here and asked for advice. I have offered advice on many threads because I can totally relate to what people are experiencing at times. I have had the cancer fears, the heart disease fears, fears of diseases like ALS, the fear that something is very wrong with my vision etc etc. HA is vicious and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. When I see people here making up stories to either gain attention or to stir people up it sits very badly with me. When I have gone to the trouble to confide my own experiences then it sits even worse. So don't ask me not to get angry with the people who come here to seek attention and stir. I have enough self-control to not start thread after thread hysterically crying out for help for a new imagined illness every other day. So having self-control while I'm here is not a problem. I say what I say because I want to say it and no amount of telling me to ignore will work. I don't agree that we should ignore people who lie about and make a mockery of HA. It is my belief that some of the people complaining about the harsh treatment of a couple of members are doing so because they want permission to keep posting their own hysterical threads. By hysterical I mean the continual onslaught of threads started by members seeking reassurance for one feared illness after another. Having said all that I'm not saying that people shouldn't come here to seek reassurance and advice. Obviously that's the whole reason the HA forum exists. My remarks are directed at people who start thread after thread hoping that members can help them. If you are starting thread after thread about illness after illness then this board isn't helping you so go and get help in the real world. Finally, I notice the same thing being repeated over and over again here and it is something along the lines of "if you don't like what someone is saying then either ignore them or don't read their posts". So to all tose people who find my posts to certain members too harsh I have this to say "if you don't like what I am saying then either ignore me or don't read my posts. Its a simple concept really.
That doesn't mean they are a candidate for tough love though. Think about the OCD cases as I said earlier. Someone with contamination OCD may easily display what you are saying here. If they are a case for tough love then they need to steer clear of the HA board as theirs fears may be seen, by some, as less worthy than the many equally irrational fears of serious illnesses that are posted daily.
Terry that was the point I was trying to make and as usual you did it so much more eloquently than I could manage.
Personally I think that a lot of our worries, whether health, contamination, social anxiety or many many others are down to irrational fears. Sometimes we know that our thought patterns are irrational but other times it is so much harder.
I still think the best policy when either you feel yourself losing patience with someone or the first thought that going through your head is "can you be serious" is to try as hard as you can you walk away.
Is perhaps the feeling of needing to "heal" the other person a kind of OCD all of its own? :D
Elen
---------- Post added at 10:11 ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 ----------
Firstly well done on overcoming your dragon.
My remarks are directed at people who start thread after thread hoping that members can help them. If you are starting thread after thread about illness after illness then this board isn't helping you so go and get help in the real world.
Finally, I notice the same thing being repeated over and over again here and it is something along the lines of "if you don't like what someone is saying then either ignore them or don't read their posts". So to all tose people who find my posts to certain members too harsh I have this to say "if you don't like what I am saying then either ignore me or don't read my posts. Its a simple concept really.
Sorry have to disagree with you there. To ignore a post you feel is attention seeking is denying the poster the attention they are looking for and perhaps is the quickest and kindest way to stop the cycle.
If you reply to the poster then it is not as simple as ignoring your post as it is there a direct response to a member.
Personally I believe in down to earth advice, trying to get people to recognise the real problem but not the recent trend towards more aggressive retorts
Going back to Terry's post, is there a difference between someone posting on a regular basis re health fears to someone who posts regarding contamination fears or any other fear for that matter?
I am sure if people traweled through my posts they would see a theme, does that make me less worthy of a polite reply?
Elen
I guess we can agree to disagree then. I will continue to post as I always have. I'm not sorry for anything I have posted to beckie and crazymum who are probably the same person. If I get banned I get banned. It is what it is.
countrygirl
23-07-15, 11:19
Reading all these replies, maybe I am a bit niave as when people repeat post with all different illnesses I just assume they are in a very bad way with their HA. I have only once I think, had the thought that a poster was taking the xxx and possibly did not have HA, but it seems as if it happens more than I noticed!
I now don't know if I am doing right or wrong as I tend to reply to posts where I have personally experienced either the symptoms or an illness and I can explain my experience or because I worked in medical area and by nature of HA absorbed medical information like a sponge I can explain say what happens in the background when you have blood tests at your Drs surgery and so hopefully give some reassurance.
I still stick by what I said that even with endless therapy some people do not improve with their health anxiety and they will always want reassurance as that is the nature of the beast. If I can help just one person for one hour feel less panicky about a symptom then I am happy to reply to posts as best I can.
Why would you question whether or not you are doing right or wrong by responding to posts to which you can relate. That's what many people here have said they do. Including myself. Others have stated that they may not have HA but they have a desire to help those who do by offering advice, of course you are entitled to post as many times as you want. If you have the patience to keep giving advice even ehen it is not ackowledged then that's your choice but you can't expect everyone to feel or react the same way as you do.
countrygirl
23-07-15, 11:40
Why would you question whether or not you are doing right or wrong by responding to posts to which you can relate. That's what many people here have said they do. Including myself. Others have stated that they may not have HA but they have a desire to help those who do by offering advice, of course you are entitled to post as many times as you want. If you have the patience to keep giving advice even ehen it is not ackowledged then that's your choice but you can't expect everyone to feel or react the same way as you do.
I have never expected anyone to react the way I do:) Sadly I do not have the confidence to assume that what I do is always correct which is why I made the comment about am I doing right or wrong in how I reply.
Ressurance seeking once again:whistles:
You don't come across like that in your posts. You are not shy about offering your opinions or advice. You wouldn't be posting on this thread if you were that worried about saying the wrong thing. Lol
countrygirl
23-07-15, 15:31
Ah but you see although I get quite a few personal messages of thanks for my advice from people on here just one comment like your " you are not shy of offering advice or opinions" makes me doubt myself.
Wouldn't it be boring though if we were all the same:):)
If you ain't got nothing nice to say then say nothing at all....... ignore the post.
Health Anx is awful.... if a doctor cannot give reasurrance then how will we?
I've seen this over the years on here, we all suffer with our own disabilities, some are needier than others.
We can only give our own experiences and sometimes our anxiety levels are just so high we cannot take that advice on board.
If you see a poster is continually posting and ignoring your advice, they are probably in such a bad place. Move on from it if its annoying you. Its as easy as that.
well said....... this it what I do now:)
just one comment like your " you are not shy of offering advice or opinions" makes me doubt myself.
agreed
I agree with the mindset of ignore it if it bothers you. Here's the thing ... If you think one of the posters in question is trying to get attention, by responding at all you have fed into it. I mean look how many responses and threads happen as a result. If you truly believe somebody is lying on purpose, it's best and most effective to not give them any attention at all - at least in my opinion.
I also occasionally am worried about the amount of people who are trying to force people to change. They might not be in that place where they can make the changes you know they should make. You have to meet people at the stage of change they are at ... For our research-minded people, look into stages of change. If you approach somebody who isn't even thinking about their anxiety as the problem in the same manner that you approach somebody who has already taken steps to change, it won't be effective. If you get nowhere, move on.
It's wonderful that everybody is so caring, but at some point we can't take responsibility and personalize other people's difficulties as our own. That's up to them.
---------- Post added at 14:35 ---------- Previous post was at 14:33 ----------
Just to add ... A lot of the work has to be done gently. I look at my own posts from when I joined several years ago and see how different I am now. Tough love sometimes is useful, but I think you need to really know the person and have a rapport with them or it can be insulting.
Another aspect one must consider is the post history. Sadly, there are some that have been here for years and very little has changed. There's just too much head trash to wade through. Also, for some, this board is their only source of help. Unfortunately, it can't take the place of a trained mental health professional and/or meds.
Positive thoughts
Fishmanpa, I understand what you are saying and I know from your posts you have the best intentions; however I'm not personally a fan of the term "head trash." Just adds to the mental health stigma. Hope you understand and correct me if I misunderstood.
Bother we need a like button on here :)
that was meant for FMP
Fishmanpa, I understand what you are saying and I know from your posts you have the best intentions; however I'm not personally a fan of the term "head trash." Just adds to the mental health stigma. Hope you understand and correct me if I misunderstood.
But it is "head trash"-undesired and unwanted. Certainly for me. And I know I need to address it.
I appreciate that others think differently.
Fishmanpa, I understand what you are saying and I know from your posts you have the best intentions; however I'm not personally a fan of the term "head trash." Just adds to the mental health stigma. Hope you understand and correct me if I misunderstood.
"Head Trash" is not meant to be derogatory. It's a descriptive term that denotes too many negative mental obstacles or thoughts, values etc. that have a negative effect on a person or situation. In fact, in my line of work it's used to describe a mindset that can detract from making a sale. For example, if I think that something is too expensive, I may, intentionally or not, push my thoughts onto the customer. So, instead of just saying how much something costs, one would say something like "Oh, that's an expensive option" thus planting that thought onto the customer.
The same applies here. It could be low self esteem thoughts that cause anxiety in a social situation or negative thoughts concerning meds or any number of negative thoughts or self talk that prevent a person from healing.
Positive thoughts
Ok, thanks for clarifying.
Ah but you see although I get quite a few personal messages of thanks for my advice from people on here just one comment like your " you are not shy of offering advice or opinions" makes me doubt myself.
Wouldn't it be boring though if we were all the same:):)
Goodness countrygirl I was giving you a compliment. I had no idea that your lack of self confidence was as bad as you say it is. I'm not familiar with your issues. I only remember your id from a thread about blood pressure that we both posted on. I only read a few threads when I come here and I rarely read all the posts on a thread. I don't even recognise all the ids on this thread including the op's. Have you ever sought help for your self esteem issues?
MyNameIsTerry
24-07-15, 06:53
I agree with the mindset of ignore it if it bothers you. Here's the thing ... If you think one of the posters in question is trying to get attention, by responding at all you have fed into it. I mean look how many responses and threads happen as a result. If you truly believe somebody is lying on purpose, it's best and most effective to not give them any attention at all - at least in my opinion.
I also occasionally am worried about the amount of people who are trying to force people to change. They might not be in that place where they can make the changes you know they should make. You have to meet people at the stage of change they are at ... For our research-minded people, look into stages of change. If you approach somebody who isn't even thinking about their anxiety as the problem in the same manner that you approach somebody who has already taken steps to change, it won't be effective. If you get nowhere, move on.
Here is an example for anyone who wants to see stages of change:
http://psychology.tools/stages-of-change.html
I think we can be at various stages in that for different problems we are dealing with.
I agree with the ignoring bit. FMP uses the phrase "feeding the dragon" a lot and it not only applies to people chasing for reassurance but in the OP getting it too. Certainly if you ignore it does cause further anxiety as the OP's post again and can even get annoyed but perhaps this is better than "feeding"? Just like the phrase "don't feed the troll". If you don't feed them, they look for another forum to rile up and maybe this helps people with health concerns look at themselves? Not sure, what do people think?
---------- Post added at 06:45 ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 ----------
Terry that was the point I was trying to make and as usual you did it so much more eloquently than I could manage.
Personally I think that a lot of our worries, whether health, contamination, social anxiety or many many others are down to irrational fears. Sometimes we know that our thought patterns are irrational but other times it is so much harder.
I still think the best policy when either you feel yourself losing patience with someone or the first thought that going through your head is "can you be serious" is to try as hard as you can you walk away.
Is perhaps the feeling of needing to "heal" the other person a kind of OCD all of its own? :D
Elen
Thanks Elen,
Yes, I think it can be OCD or even HA because its obsession and both share that as a big problem. Perhaps that drives frustration in some too?
What I have found is to try to be neutral with your emotions as best you can. This goes back to my work where a lot of arsey mails would fly around and plenty of people were disciplined for it. The advice always given was that you should act professionally and be in mind of your t&c's. I think that applies in life but for different reasons.
I think Mindfulness helped me with this too because I was more inclined to challenge for the wrong reasons before.
Anxiety stage will play a part too. It's so much harder to do the self checks when you are easily affecting by all sorts of things.
---------- Post added at 06:53 ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 ----------
I've saw some posts from people that I have to say I found quite concerning, some of the symptoms mentioned were indeed worrying. I won't give examples because that's just asking for trouble. So I guess what I'm saying is that, generally, 99% of queries here will of course be minor ailments or nothing at all physical. However, the symptoms sound, to me (and I consider myself to be reasonably knowledgable on medical subjects) pretty concerning and I can understand the concern a little easier.
For something like OCD, which I have no experience of and, honestly, know little about, if I've ever called any of those queries absurd or whatever then it is simply a case of me not recognising OCD. It's much easier for someone who actually has the condition to recognise the signs of it, after all. Maybe I need to educate myself on that aspect of anxiety, and it's a point well taken.
I haven't ever seen you in a thread where I believe it is more OCD, Gary.
I found myself in the same situation with HA. I have health concerns like everyone else but I don't catastrophize and I can easily Google something and look for the rational possibilities. In truth, if something serious pops up I just say "whatever" and the same if I find a lump or bruise, or anything else. So, for me its just an element of my GAD but I can apply the correct thinking to get myself to a possible solution. There are probably others with GAD posting and I know Ricardo has mentioned this about himself. So, this board is a bit of a catch all really.
I found learning more about some of the OCD forms around health, learning about the somatoforms, reading threads on the HA board, learning how differential diagnosis is based, etc helped me to understand a bit more about HA and to separate out the OCD ones more. Contamination is often easy to spot but the HIV/AIDS and psychosis/schizophrenia stuff can be complicated as that can easily be seen in someone with HA too. I've just found it tends to be the same person and the same theme with some of these.
Many of the things said to help HA with help OCD sufferers too though. OCD has reassurance as a compulsion and it largely seems to work just like HA. Googling isn't always an issue but I would say some would use it.
So, I think you will know more than you realise on OCD.
I think Terry’s point is the one that resonates with me most on the board.
How exactly do you handle a response to an individual’s specific fears or anxieties - which sometimes CAN sound wildly irrational and yes, even absurd to some people – without it sounding like you are verbally beating up or belittling/humiliating the individual for having those fears. The fact that they experience the anxiety and fear itself, that is never absurd. Phobias and OCD behaviours/compulsions particularly can sound very far out – even to other sufferers – but those fears, as well as those with more classic HA, are completely real. They exist, and they are a sufferer...a victim of them.
A couple of times recently I have seen one or two very sarcastic replies to some posts – and even the use of a forehead slapping emote and the “Duh” expression - which I really felt was probably not required, however irrational the original poster’s concerns may have sounded.
I think posting on this site to try and help people effectively really does require that you separate the specific subject of a person’s fears – from the illness that is causing them to experience those fears in the first place. And try to ensure that in addressing or providing reassurance about a specific anxiety – you are not making them feel stupid or ridiculous for the having this underlying psychological problem that causes them to feel it. I know myself, it can be very challenging to construct a response that is designed to dispel or provide reassurance against the fear, whilst being supportive and acknowledging that the real illness they have is valid, and is not stupid – and is taken seriously here.
There a couple of example threads and posters around that have proven to be extremely challenging to help. I don't call them attention seekers per se... but yes, sometimes it honestly does feel like certain posters want to absorb an awful lot of time and energy from the forum, without really doing anything to effectively use the advice and support they recieve or otherwise help themselves. And you can clearly see people's patience taking the strain and ebbing in those threads. However some of those threads I simply decided to ignore in the end, on the basis I am clearly not equipped to help that person. Perhaps others would do well to do the same in some cases. That is food-for-thought for those people though and their choice to make.
Of course we are all different – with different styles of communication – but really (like any good therapist will tell you), keeping a neutral tone as much as possible (without losing your entire personality, of course) is often the best way to help someone and avoid being misconstrued or perceived incorrectly. It is a fine line and a skill, I know, because sometimes part of helping someone is to actually point out or constructively “prove” or demonstrate to someone how their specific fear may be exaggerated by their anxiety – but I really think that needs to be handled without sarcasm or by belittling the person.
Empathy and understanding are not always "enabling" my view. Just as patronising someone or beating them up with sarcasm shouldn't be confused as being "tough love"....
"Enabling" and "tough love" encompass a huge spectrum, though, especially on the internet where we are totally at the mercy of usernames and typed words. We aren't pretending to be professional therapists. We can only take posts at face value to begin with and then watch them evolve when-occasionally-discrepancies may develop etcetc. I think it is possible to then respectfully challenge certain points-not aggressively but with an aim to clarify the situation.
I would like to think that the vast majority of posters on the HA board are genuine but I'm realistic and realise that there is the opportunity here for abuse of people's good nature and time- as there is on any internet forum. We can't be mega-suspicious but we should be vigilant and protect others on NMP from those who are not worthy of attention
Thanks for the chart, Terry. I was on my phone, so it was hard to look up links and post at the same time ... at least for me :D
Frenchy, I agree with your post a lot. Especially the last part - "Empathy and understanding are not always "enabling" my view. Just as patronising someone or beating them up with sarcasm shouldn't be confused as being "tough love"...."
We all have to make our own decisions regarding posts, but we also have to be realistic. This is the internet and we cannot completely moderate who posts what all the time. The admins have to prioritize their limited time to people who are blatantly breaking rules and being abusive - and that's not meant to be offensive to admins, as I appreciate how much they volunteer to run this place. We all have lives, including them. But my point is that with the internet, you are going to get people posting things that you don't like or that frustrate you. You have to make your own decision about whether it is worth it for you to respond or not.
Yes, there is the opportunity for abuse of people's good nature. It happens a lot on the internet and in the real world. It's up to us to decide how much of our own energy and time we are willing and able to give without draining ourselves or putting our own wellbeing at risk. We can't control other people - be it with sarcasm, tough love, etc. We can only control ourselves and our own reactions.
I would like to think that the vast majority of posters on the HA board are genuine but I'm realistic and realise that there is the opportunity here for abuse of people's good nature and time- as there is on any internet forum. We can't be mega-suspicious but we should be vigilant and protect others on NMP from those who are not worthy of attention
I think that's the point I was making. If there are people that aren't worthy of the attention - then that's the moment to stop giving it to them rather than continuing to respond to someone in a way that makes your frustration very obvious (I don't mean you specifically, I'm using the royal "your" here :D)
I don't think continuing to reply to these particular people is always all that effective as a way of protecting others on MNP... in fact - as a fairly new poster here, I can say first hand that when you see these threads take that kind of downward trajectory (and even eventually turn in to complaints of aggressiveness or abusiveness) that can create an even more negative view of the board than a handful of attention seekers or "hopeless cases".
At the end of the day, I completely accept everyone has to make their own personal judgement in terms of deciding when things have gotten to a point where they can no longer constructively contribute to helping another poster deal with their problem without things moving from "tough love" over the line in to something more negative. And people will differ in terms of where the threshold is. But I do think there have been times recently where people have probably over-stayed their time in some of those threads and things have escalated somewhat as a result. Just my 2 cents.
How exactly do you handle a response to an individual’s specific fears or anxieties - which sometimes CAN sound wildly irrational and yes, even absurd to some people – without it sounding like you are verbally beating up or belittling/humiliating the individual for having those fears.
It's a double edged sword in many cases. Often times, the OP will say "I know this is crazy but..." or the post is an attempt at rationalization ending with the question "Am I being irrational?" I saw a post where the OP actually said not to ask about their anxiety after a laundry list of anxiety symptoms and clear test results!
When you affirm that indeed it is an irrational fear, it's often countered with a "Yeah but..." thus the forehead slap or "huh?". It's almost as if the poster wants something to be wrong. I guess it goes back to chasing a diagnosis vs. treating the real illness.
Positive thoughts
countrygirl
24-07-15, 14:45
Goodness countrygirl I was giving you a compliment. I had no idea that your lack of self confidence was as bad as you say it is. I'm not familiar with your issues. I only remember your id from a thread about blood pressure that we both posted on. I only read a few threads when I come here and I rarely read all the posts on a thread. I don't even recognise all the ids on this thread including the op's. Have you ever sought help for your self esteem issues?
Haha just goes to show that I immediately took your comment to be a negative rather than a compliment. I was thinking oh no they all think I am really pushy and outspoken!! So thank you for it being a compliment. You have done me some good as now I will try hard to not assume that type of comment must be a negative one.
I am a strange mix of appearing to be really confident and calm but am anything but inside. The swan comes to mind, calm and peaceful on the surface and paddling like heck underneath!
Haha just goes to show that I immediately took your comment to be a negative rather than a compliment. I was thinking oh no they all think I am really pushy and outspoken!! So thank you for it being a compliment. You have done me some good as now I will try hard to not assume that type of comment must be a negative one.
I am a strange mix of appearing to be really confident and calm but am anything but inside. The swan comes to mind, calm and peaceful on the surface and paddling like heck underneath!
I saw it as a compliment too. No-one knows what goes on inside our brains and I think that plenty of apparently confident people have low self esteem-they just don't talk about it.
---------- Post added at 16:42 ---------- Previous post was at 16:37 ----------
It's a double edged sword in many cases. Often times, the OP will say "I know this is crazy but..." or the post is an attempt at rationalization ending with the question "Am I being irrational?" I saw a post where the OP actually said not to ask about their anxiety after a laundry list of anxiety symptoms and clear test results!
When you affirm that indeed it is an irrational fear, it's often countered with a "Yeah but..." thus the forehead slap or "huh?". It's almost as if the poster wants something to be wrong. I guess it goes back to chasing a diagnosis vs. treating the real illness.
Positive thoughts
I really dislike emoticons. I know that every forum has to have them but they can cause a lot of upset and confusion when used to "control", shall we say?
I'm the same countrygirl. I sound strong and confident but there are days when I am sitting here typing a reassuring reply to someone while at the same time I am an anxious mess.
Pulisa thank you for supporting me. I know you don't like emoticons but you're getting this one anyway :hugs:
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