SAMe for depression [Archive]

SADnomore

29-08-15, 05:46

I found the link below when researching supplements, and from that link, on to look at SAMe (2nd link). I have decided to try to augment my antidepressant with natural supplements, in an effort to keep the dose down this winter. Being able to make do with less, if possible, was suggested to me as a strategy against "poop out". I don't know how much this strategy has been studied or anything ... but I figure it's worth a try. And if, down the road, my medication poops out anyway, I will have a natural protocol to follow once that's resolved.

For those of you not taking psychotropics who are trying to cobble together such a natural supplement protocol, the first link may be helpful. And for those of us who need an extra boost and would rather not take yet a higher dose or yet another medication, the second link provides some food for thought!

http://www.omegavia.com/supplements-for-depression-anxiety/
and that link for SAMe,
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.2009.09081198

It's true, it's true, SAMe is very expensive, but it has applications for pain and more, as well.

As for "B vitamins", I have finally found a tonic that doesn't make me anxious (I actually feel calmer since taking it), and gives me lots of energy, too! This is the first time I have been able to take a B supplement without stomach upset, and I love the effects! (Take it before meals). NOTE: cannot be taken with MAOIs. I take an SNRI (Effexor) and have taken it for a couple of weeks, works great for me already!
http://www.avogel.ca/en/herbal-remedies/biostrath-elixir.php

Marie

MyNameIsTerry

29-08-15, 06:49

Hi Marie,

I've just a scan of some of this, the first one is a lot to go through and very helpful.

Are you working with your doctor to add in SAMe? Or just starting small? It doesn't have interacts with Ven, which seems a bit strange when it does interact with some SSRI's, why is that? Is it a matter of SSRI's doing more Serotonin whereas SNRI's being a half & half hence not as potent on the Serotonin? (I've never looked into that so have no clue about it).

I know I've seen SAMe products but I've never really looked any further with there being that many brands of things to try out there.

There no interactions for my Duloxetine either. So, one for the possible list there, thanks :yesyes:

Thanks for the Omega 3 link. I can never remember whether it's EPA or DHA and that will save me saying this on every post from here on! I guess it's a matter of understanding what the impact of the DHA is and whether you can top up the EPA without the DHA affecting it (my product is combined of equal value, but I could add EPA on top if it helped). I'm interested in Omega 3 as it has certainly helped with balancing my moods than the current med ever has but cost is an issue for meat the moment as some of them are so expensive.

Psychobiotics, eh? I'll definately be reading about that one over the weekend. I'm all up for probiotics and making my own when I get chance to start the batches running.

I asked you on another thread but I think you might have missed it, whats the story with the Serrapeptase? I've got some of that as I read it helps with asthma so I thought it worth a try as all doctors do with us asthma sufferers is throw more meds at us and ignore all the stuff the charities are telling us to do. I've got a standard product, not one of those really strong ones they use but I've read it's very credible and used in some surgeries in is it France or Germany?

Glycine is on your list. Seems interesting. Not read much about using that but I know it's a neurotransmitter.

Creatine is an interesting one. Creatine is very very safe and used by many millions of people for sport. It does have some side effects but there are ways around the gastro ones. It can make you short of breath so I will have to be careful with that one with my asthma but I used to take it years ago when I was training. I want to start training again and using this anyway so those studies will be a useful read as I can get the best of both worlds out of that.

Thanks for sourcing this stuff. :hugs:

SADnomore

29-08-15, 22:09

Okay, more on SAMe: I am finding doctors recommendations to try to find 100 mg tablets of SAMe, or else to split the tablets in half, as, indeed, less is more with many people getting satisfactory benefits from just 100 mg daily, or even just 3 times per week. As an aside, I see that my tablets are enteric coated, which is what we want with such supplements intended to pass through the blood-brain barrier to do some good. Therefore I imagine that cutting the coating will subject the contents to stomach acids and render it much less useful. The recommendations of taking one 200 mg tablet with breakfast or up to half an hour beforehand, and for no more than two days in a row, are meant to alleviate possible side effects of insomnia, anxiety and gastrointestinal issues.

It seems that its very effectiveness calls for caution in the use of SAMe. It seems best suited to a protocol for those who are not taking prescription antidepressants and want to include it in a natural regimen, for mood enhancement. Since positive effects can be expected by the two-week mark, it does seem to be worth speaking to one's doctor about!

Cautions abound on two points: SAMe, like some pharmaceutical antidepressants, is not to be taken by those with bi-polar disorder. And, it is not to be taken by those on MAOIs.

For those who have intractable depression, the second link to that shows it to be effective as an adjunct to other drug therapies in relieving treatment-resistant depression is heartening.

Mine is not intractable, I am getting relief from Effexor. So it seems that my doctor would need to concur that SAMe should be taken just in an effort to keep my Effexor dose low. I know that I do feel side effects on startup and dose changes of any medication I have tried, and wouldn't want to increase those with the addition of ANY supplement.

I have also found EPA to be really helpful with mood, especially since I have bumped up to two doses per day. I take a flavoured fish oil liquid to which I add my vitamin D drops, then usually follow it up with a magnesium capsule because magnesium requires vitamin D to work. On the other hand, I just read that magnesium doesn't like fat, so, I will be splitting it off from the omegas and D drops. ...

I hear you about the DHA and will probably add a plain EPA capsule to bring my dose up to 1000 units, rather than add more of both in an extra fish oil dose. *correction: on reflection I realize that eating fish at least twice a week will no doubt cover me off for that :)

Serrapeptase: well, I am happy to report that it is proving to be effective on my arthritic pain! I do take the 120,000 unit capsules because it is something that was advised as working best in high doses to establish blood levels, then reducing as pain subsides. In fact, I am now proceeding to finish the rest of the bottle by taking 4 capsules per day, then switching to 90,000 for a couple of weeks (splitting a bottle with my sister), then on to 60,000 capsules. These are all enteric coated, and taken on an empty stomach, always. The idea is that for acute pain and for start-up, you want to hit it hard with the high dose, then work down to where you have a maintenance dose of 60,000 units 1 to 3 times a day. The lowest dose is the cheapest, I have found them for less than $40. for 120 capsules, on regular sales at the health food store. Because of its systemic application against inflammation body-wide, it makes sense to take it all the time. The breakdown cost of as little as $10 a month (no idea in your currency, ha ha!) should hopefully be worth it. So far, so good! And my sister, who has pain from sciatica as well as fibromyalgia and arthritis, has definitely noticed a difference. She, like me, is happy for any appreciable pain relief, and is looking to a magnesium oil application to do even more.

So, the serrapeptase, and the amazing Swiss elixir, have been the biggest finds for me and I plan to continue with those regardless. I also picked up a bottle of L-tryptophan which is also said to cross the blood-brain barrier with the assistance of a simple carb like corn syrup, on an empty stomach, to go on to facilitate serotonin increase there. I think that once I have dropped down to taking fewer serrapeptase per day (freeing up an "empty stomach" time), then I will start up with that for awhile. Again, I figure that by increasing the amount of serotonin to work with, I may be able to keep the Effexor increases down this winter.

Terry, do you know what happened to the thread the young lady started on natural supplementation against anxiety and depression? There was a lot of good info on there and I remember you posted to it as well as me?
Marie

---------- Post added at 15:09 ---------- Previous post was at 13:12 ----------

Wait, i think it was more about foods to increase serotonin! Anyone??

Greenman50

29-08-15, 22:35

Not wanting so sound negative but i,m skeptical about ANY claims from any product , to help when someone is making money out of it .

You could just research the best diet online and add that from the health store .

Please let us know how you go on but its not for me

SADnomore

30-08-15, 05:09

Hi, Mel!

Right. My position is that, since we have to eat anyway, we do need to try firstly to get our nutrients for body and brain from our diet. It's just that there are some diets, and some nutrients, that call for some supplementation for certain results. I always research thoroughly any that I'm interested in, and only incorporate them when they've been proven to work in double-blind scientific studies. Really!

For sure, a lot of unscrupulous companies are jumping on what they see as trends, and trying to make money from inferior supplements (not enough of the active ingredient, or a cheap version that doesn't work). That's why I research to death what it is that is proven to work, in what amounts, what to look for and what to avoid. And I take this information with me when I shop. I don't want to waste my money and time. It takes discipline for me to stay on track with what I take as it is, ha ha!

Trust me, I am really committed to getting the majority of my nutrients from good food, and making up shortfalls, only, from supplements. And when I hit on some that work, I like to share them!!! Wooo hooo! :yahoo:

MyNameIsTerry

30-08-15, 05:49

It can be daunting researching all this stuff, I've done my share over the last year or two and you find one thing then see something attached to it or a study reference and off you go. I often end up with a lot of tabs open and a slow lappy because of that! :doh:

Then it comes to the companies and the prices. I like to be as cost efficient as possible so that just adds another layer of complication to the searches and ties me up in knots for a bit sometimes.

Some companies you have to be careful with but you also have to remember that all the big supermarket chains and even the health food chains don't make any of these supplements so what old Fred sells on Ebay for a few quid can be coming off the same production line as the biggest supermarkets for their generic ranges. I've saved plenty by taking chances on companies that show a decent image on Ebay or Amazon.

It's great if you can get it from food, but also don't get ripped off by your supermarket in the process :whistles::winks: but some things just aren't possible. A good example of this is Mari's Serrapeptase, unless you like eating silk worms that is? :D

It's sooooop complicated isn't it, Marie? Vitamin D needed for this thing to absorb, calcium for another, etc. I think you will be at certified nutritionalist level soon :D

What dose of Omega 3 are you taking? I go for around 800mg+ of each but I'be been adding a capsule on top as I have a pack to use up. I'm glad it's helping you, I know it's helped me.

I seem to recall that the old advice of "oily fish" isn't accurate and that certain types of fish within that category are best. I can't remember now. Have you come across that?

It makes perfect sense about the Serotonin. It's something I find annoying about our GP's who throw pills at us to stop us wasting it yet don't offer us advice on filling up the tank. I wonder how many people could be helped simply through adopting a diet condusive to more of this?

Have you looked at the Wiki list of Serotonin foods? Spirulina sits at the top. That might be worth a look as thats been touted as a superfood for a while and has a good amount of nutrients like B vitamins in hasn't it?

Cool on the Serrapeptase. I shall get on with that then because I have had what I thought was sciatica for about 15 months now although it is getting better thanks to...transdermal magnesium. I have 90 80,000IU strength of the enteric Serrapeptase but it cost about £8 I think, so it's pretty cheap over. There are loads of generic brands so it's a bargain really. I'm glad you mention that thought because I hadn't looked at it for pain but I knew it was for inflammation too so this is likely to help me on several fronts. I'll probably take a few to ensure no issues and maybe double up to build it up. Any advice on how long you need a loading dose? I think I've seen more expensive specialist brands going up to 250,000IU. I've mentioned it to my GF because she has scare tissue in her shoulder from years of archery and the tearing she had. It is supposed to help with scarring on the surface too I think which is useful as I had Eczema so I have a load of scars all over. I had read it had to be enteric coated or the stomach acid will just destroy it. Did you have any side effects starting? I've heard there are none but it's always worth checking with someone who has tried them as supplements have been (and still are) a battle for me so I have expose myself to them and challenge any thinking or sensations that arise.

Magnesium oil is good stuff. I went for this as my first magnesium supplement. If you rub it on your feet it won't sting. If you rub it on an area that is magnesium deficient, it will sting. It's not painful like some people make out on the reviews, god it won't be to any woman who has been through childbirth :D. I made a mistake a few weeks back when I rubbed it over an area of skin I had scratched in the night that had meant an open wound...and it was like a burn. It has helped me greatly with my knees. I have been having aches & pains in them for about 6 weeks and they would throb in bed. Exercise or no exercise, they ached so I thought I might be getting osteoarthritis. I gave the oil a try and the difference in noticeable. I used it after walking and it takes it off and over the last few weeks it has greatly reduced the daily aches to very little. I really need to do in the morning as well to sort that out. A word of caution though, it can stick to your clothes so I would wash it off after it has absorbed into the skin. It's not a bad price either, cheaper than the chelated forms and last for ages. I don't think I was using enough the first 6 months until I started on my knees. I can't say I've noticed a difference with anxiety yet but it could be because of the other areas needing it so much at the moment.

Can you remember when that thread was on here? Is it a really old one from someone I won't know that was getting updated? I might have a look but I'm trying to remember about it and can't at the moment. I remember seing one about cortisol reduction as well, was it anything like that?

SADnomore

30-08-15, 23:25

Well, I do treat myself when it comes to fish oil, because I have learned if I am to keep taking it, I can't have the fishy taste coming back to haunt me and causing possible tummy problems :(

So, here it is, the one I take. And love. Yum! Contains 525 mg of EPA per 2 tsp serving! Which is more than twice its DHA. And yes, this is what we strive for, more EPA than DHA, unless we have cut out processed foods and bottled salad dressings, etc., which commonly have high levels of DHA needing balance with EPAs. (Due to soy in one form or another.)
http://www.botanicahealth.com/product/omegalicious-peach-mango/

I have looked at topping up with capsules and chewy treats that are said to be "just EPA", but they invariably contain DHA too, but in any case, the amount in mg is laughable. 55 mg and such. Not worth buying. However, once the 3 doses of my yummy liquid are taken, then just one egg at 340 mg of ALA will top up my needs. Not being a fan of eggs and fish every day, though, I am really looking to limit them to twice a week, and to get my nutrients from a plant-based diet the rest of the time. Omega 3s are easy peasy, from just 1/2 ounce (7 halves) of walnuts I get that much! 1 tablespoon of ground flax seeds allows for 1 and 1/2 times the 1000 mg allowance, which is probably one reason we see them in all these healthy smoothie recipes.

For all you who are able to take regular fish oil supplements, you are fortunate, keep at it! These fatty acids, particularly the omega 3s, are essential to brain health, that's been proven now for years!

Terry, just today looking at the sources I have done for this post, I am seeing that you are closer to the new recommendations than I am! Indeed there are some references to 4,000 mg a day as being optimal! Surely though, with all the whole foods that contain them, supplementing with fish oils by more than 2,000 mg isn't necessary?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________

By all means, do try taking serrapeptase as a one-off first thing one morning, and after half an hour have a good breakfast. See how you do. Oddly enough, I did notice an increase in pain for a few days (?) before it then got better. That was it, and could have been for any number of reasons, including an inadvertent intake of oxalic acid from say, tomato sauce or spinach. The improvement since has been slow but then, after about 3 weeks, very steady, with NO side effects, I am happy to say. I am just following the advice of staff at the health food store who have been trained on it, and sell to locals all the time. So far, so good, as I say, and I am optimistic that I can taper down soon for the fall. *In answer to your question: My 120,000 strength is in a bottle of 140 (bonus size), so I would think that if you took 4 per day until your bottle of 90 80,000s are gone, that will concur with what they would tell you* ... I am now taking mine 2 at a time on rising, and 2 at a time 1/2 hour before dinner.

*I just took my first l-tryptophan, empty stomach, 2 hours + since lunch, and have had no side effects. The label reads: L-Tryptophan (glucose fermentation) 220mg; Vitamin B6 (pyridoxal 5 phosphate) 50mg. Because of the glucose fermentation, I skipped the corn syrup, lol! I trust it is being used now to create more serotonin. I'm not at all sleepy, so I doubt it went the other way to melatonin :yesyes:

*Forgot to mention, I have seen it advised that for SAMe, optimal dosing is to be taken, empty stomach but with 100 mg of a B-complex, and with a fat like coconut oil to follow, perhaps in warm tea or coffee. This is for best absorption, and to disarm any homocysteine that may be formed. I think that following with my tonic just before breakfast will provide my Bs. I will be waiting on it for a bit until I am on a roll here with everything else.

I may need to bump the serrapeptase up again mid-winter if the arthritis flares badly, and have extra bottles of 60,000 to work with in that case. However, winter is when I typically juice my greens for a few weeks, and otherwise avoid the nightshades to keep oxalic acid out (this aggravates arthritis). Fingers crossed this will do enough so that I may not need to increase serrapeptase or at least, not for long. Keep us posted on your progress, and your gf's and her shoulder if she tries serrapeptase too!

Finally, re: sciatica, Terry is the mag oil best applied directly to the lower back?

Thanks for info, my sister has some at the ready!
Marie

---------- Post added at 16:25 ---------- Previous post was at 16:20 ----------

SAMe:
http://wholehealthchicago.com/2009/05/19/714/

SADnomore

31-08-15, 06:39

I think this is probably the most comprehensive article by a doctor that I have read on the subject of SAMe. Conditions helped, dosing, etc. I have also read other things that also make me feel more confident about trying it!

http://wholehealthchicago.com/2009/05/19/714/

Oh, yes, spirulina! I have indeed heard that it is very high in tryptophan, and have trialed one tablet a couple of times to make sure I could take it fine, as I wanted to purchase a raw protein powder that contains it. I was fine! (A reputable company is essential, because there can be toxins in algae if it's not tested properly. And you find out right quick :P )

MyNameIsTerry

31-08-15, 06:48

Thanks Marie,

I'll give them a try for tolerance for a few days and then ramp them up. It says 1-2 anyway but I known I've seen 250,000IU units. It's an interesting enzyme and seems to do quite a lot. It's also pretty cheap in the UK. The benefits to arterial plaque alone are good as thats normally meds only territory. I will let you know how I get on.

For my sciatica I have been rubbing the oil on the lower back & buttock (left side). I've only been doing it a couple of weeks so it's better but still up & down some days. I don't know if I really have sciatica or something causing it like making something pinching. So, I thought it worth a go but I had added glucosamine (started at 750mg for a bottle, now 1500mg) and later added MSM (500mg) hoping it would help. when I started Glucosamine I did notice a difference within days but after a week or two it didn't seem to keep getting better.

Have you looked at taurine? There are chelated magnesium versions but they are sparse so they are a bit pricey. Taurine is a GABA precursor but the only problem is that it is used all over the body too so it might mean dosing upwards until you see a change.

Something I have started looking into is L-Glutamine. This is one that could be a double edged sword because it supplies not only all the muscles in the body in large amounts but the exhitory neurotransmitter Glutamate. Thats not a bad thing as it's the largest neurotransmitter but it needs to be balanced by GABA, the 2nd largest. That could be an issue for experimentation in those of us with anxiety as who knows if we are lacking in GABA. But maybe along with taurine there may be something. The interesting thing is that L-Glutamine is very cheap as it's been a mass market bodybuilding product and it's just an amino and it's high in all the protein powders and weight gainers. Taurine is as well but other than in protein powdes & weight gainers, in tablet form it will be a higher dosage (probably, not checked yet) but probably more costly on it's own than L-Glutamine tends to be.

A new version of magnesium chelate has come out from one company so far so it's pricey. It's called Threonine, I think. I can't remember for sure but I think it's a theanine version so that might be worth checking out given that helps in the teas? It's being more touted for the brain but I don't think there are any studies beyond the manufacturer's own.

What is the 4000mg against though? Is that all Omega 3? So, EPA, DHA & ALA? Some products e.g. hemp milk, contain quantities of SDA but I don't know what use they are as they aren't considered part of our physiology :shrug:. I am certainly interested in Omega 3 though, I know it has some studies in asthma too so a potential double whammy for me.

Have you looked at the ratio of 3 vs. 6? I've read before that too much 6 can be a problem for anxiety/depression. I haven't got any further with it though.

I haven't looked at 9's either but I do eat a little bit on peanut butter daily on a couple of crackers with a big dollop of Quark so I'm getting some.

Oosh has a thread called "Fish Oils". There is some issues with competition of EPA vs. DHA hence Oosh was saying the DHA should be less. I posted an article in there somewhere. I have been stuck on this due to cost so I'm not sure whether I could be gaining more by limiting DHA somehow but it's tricky with cost involved. It also mentioned about GLA being connected to DHA, I think, so may need some balancing.

I suppose if price is no problem, you could look at chia seeds. They are tiny so you could probably add them to flatbreads or crackers if you were making them. Perhaps add some sunflower or sesame seeds?

On the subject of L-Tryptophan, as far as I read it was competition from BCAA's which would take priority with the meal being protein in nature. So, they said to add carbs because it destabilises this balance to allow L-Trytophan to take proirity. If you are taking it alone, this may not be needed as the competition won't be there so all you would need is the carried across the blood-brain barrier (thats the B6 isn't it?).

SADnomore

31-08-15, 19:13

Right, that's what they have said all along, that DHA should be less than EPA, and also that 3s should outnumber 6s, mainly due to their preponderance in our diet. Sorry, I misremembered that! Sometimes I just make notes of what to look for, once I am convinced of the merits of these recommendations, and go to the stores and online to compare prices.

Once I have bought and incorporated a supplement, I may not remember just why it is I am taking it, but, I am now trying to group them accordingly, and make a point of remembering generally why I am taking which. ... For example, thus far today I have taken my serrapeptase ("pain") and now am about to eat and take my omegas ("brain"). I have "tag-alongs" like B12 which is best taken on an empty stomach, so I took a sublingual a bit after. As always, plenty of water is suggested when taking anything on an empty stomach. Empty stomach really is imperative with the serrapeptase, so I am religious about that. Yesterday I ended up out for dinner and missed taking it beforehand, so I waited and took the last 2 at night, then gave a half-hour between that and the rest of my meds.

*My understanding with the L-Tryptophan is that the B6 is included for homocysteine elimination as this may be otherwise problematic. ? And while what you have said about adding carbs to destabilize competition from BCAAs is probably the technical explanation, it was said in one study that the size of the carbohydrate molecule allows it to take priority as carrier for the trypt. Corn syrup was successfully used in the study I read. I'm thinking that if a "fancy" glucose-fermented kind isn't available, then a tablespoon of a concentrated carb like that would do just as well, on an empty stomach. I'm just going to take it for maybe 10 days and call it good for now. I will be ramping up my ven more as time goes on, and will be considering the addition of SAMe. I think it is prudent to be a bit conservative so as not to go too far with serotonin.

Also of course there is the critical Vitamin D, which I drop in with my omegaliscious. (I don't mean to keep harping on it but, as I say, while I have been taking my magnesium along with these last, I am concerned about what I read briefly about magnesium being best taken without fat? Does that include fish oil? I wonder.) I take it morning and evening, but am now considering taking both capsules at bedtime. I take the bisglycinate, 200 mg capsules. I will likely need to adjust once I start using mag oil. Naturally, as a topical, with that it shouldn't matter what's also in your stomach, am I right?

Lastly on the fish oils/omegas, I don't really know anymore either what the ratio of 9 should be, and whether, like 6 from soy, it abounds in salad dressings, packaged goods and so forth. I am sure a person could spend a couple of hours looking at the 3-6-9s and, by choosing one for a lower ratio of 6 to 3, also manage to fit in the 9s appropriately? Meanwhile, whole foods have proven themselves again. Junk food is bad for anxiety and just about everything else! There are reasons behind that, clearly. I have to say that if you are eating pretty clean, Terry, your equal proportions of 3 and 6 are probably okay! It is when we eat soy in all its ubiquitous forms in prepared foods that we tip the balance the wrong way and need to claw in more 3s. That said, the balanced 3-6-9 supplements appear to be cheap enough at least here that you might look at those for future reference.

*Chia seeds/Flax seeds. Actually, when looking at detailed nutritional profiles of these two, Flax seeds presented as being 4 times as rich in omega 3s as Chia seeds. Of course, Flax have to be ground though.

*I keep hearing the same as you report about the glucosamine supplements, they help at first, but then that's it. I am looking to the anti-inflammatory effects of the serrapeptase to at least ease the pain issues for now, until something comes along that really helps to regenerate cartilage itself. Someday!

*Taurine and L-Glutamine. No, I haven't looked at them and what with being on an anti-depressant, I confess I am reluctant to start such delicate tinkering in fear of opening up a real pandora's box, you know?

*Glycine. I am clueless about it, but it is present in that protein powder I mentioned.

Well, fingers crossed that the serrapeptase successfully augments the relief you are finding with magnesium oil against your pain. I will be hoping for similar with the addition of the mag oil to my serrapeptase supplementation. As has been commented, at least if nothing else we are reducing inflammation nevertheless, and that's a hugely positive thing. :)

MyNameIsTerry

01-09-15, 04:59

I've seen ratios for 3-6 but I thought it was 1:1 or 1:2? I've seen one 1:3. Have I got those the wrong way around? I likely get a fair bit of 6 and this concerns me as well for my asthma with that being an inflammatory condition but there are safe limits on 3's as well so I'll have to see if I can go up to that. I also need to read the article I posted in Oosh's thread again to check on the DHA & GLA impacts.

I didn't know that about Chia, I thought it was the other way around. Flax are cheaper aren't they? Chia seemed to be the new in thing. Pricey though. You can get flaxseed oil as well, can't you?

Have you looked at hemp? Usually it's seeds but you can get (or make your own) hemp oil. In my local supermarket they have Hemp milk and there won't be any EPA/DHA in that but I know it's got a low SDA value so I suspect the rest if the dose is ALA. It's reasonably priced like but milk so maybe an alternative?

Glutamine is one I'm unsure about. I know it can be used to create glutamate and too much of this will be a bad thing, especially for anxiety, but maybe it would be useful in depression? I know they are working on meds that hit that neurotransmitter so maybe there is some research out there for them that offers some hints? NoPoet has a new meds thread where several are mentioned and I think they were in the vein of SNRI's in that it would be perhaps HRI or HSNRI, HDSNR, etc? With OCD this is tricky for me as some supplements that are emerging to help with OCD (some have shown 40% effectiveness for related spectrum disorders) that work on reducing certain glutamate rich areas. But glutamine is used for muscle energy (hence thinking about depression & brain energy) in great quantities so in any protein powder or weight gainer. I guess it's going to be another one of those you try and then hit a ceiling with where it becomes too stimulating.

On the subject of brain energy, L-Carnitine is one I've seen mentioned. That works all over as well though so perhaps the same issue unless you load it with a carrier?

I've not looked at Glycine much myself. It's another major one in protein powders so it will be used throughout the body and I seem to recall it has competition with some other neurotransmitters. It does seem to be a popular chelate with magnesium...and it's cheap!

Transdermal magnesium won't go anywhere near your digestive system, it's purely absorbed through the skin which is much better anyway. I'm not sure on the fat, so one for a Google I think. It may be the type of fat as well as they all have their different impacts on other substances and some are carriers.

How much D3 do you take? I know this one will be very important to you and I expect you have researched it a lot. I was looking at my cod liver oil and it only has 400UI which I believe is really low. Part of my problem is lack of sunshine with my sleep issues and I noticed I felt more tired when I started seeing the sleep schedule slip. Part of this may be an effect by my meds as well but it won't be helping. I'm thinking of getting some of these to help me with this issue as I have fatigue a lot but I was reading about it and how the RDA's are considered too low. The upper limit seemed to be where the supplements end (10,000UI?) but I saw someone talking about how once you hit 10,000UI you needs to add in K2 or you are making things worse as it can cause calcium to leech from your bones. I've also read that it's more around the 8,000UI level you need to even increase your blood plasma levels to make a positive shift if you are low. (I was a bit shocked to read that doctor's use D2 in their prescriptions which is a far inferior version!)

Interesting one for you on antioxidants here:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/04/10/can-you-use-food-to-increase-glutathione-instead-of-supplements.aspx

That ties in with your ALA. It looks like supplementation isn't easy with this but it's more about precursor material, synthesis supplements and inhibitory supplements. It's interesting. I only came across that because I was looking at NAC, which is coming along in med trials for OCD sprectrum disorders. NAC converts to it.

Do you know anything about NAC? It says it's one to be monitored by a doctor on if you have asthma but it's used to treat various lung disorders and there are testimonials by asthma sufferers. This might be a boon to me as my current med feels too activating.

blue moon

01-09-15, 06:41

Hemp milk? I am moving to your place Terry :D

I make LSA use it in everything,it is nice with yoghurt and salads. Chia,Gobi Berries are on trend and are expensive,I have papita seeds and flax seed on cereal with LSA.
Just thought I would mention that,hope it does not kill the thread.

MyNameIsTerry

01-09-15, 08:05

Whats LSA, Petra?

Yeah, hemp milk in the supermarkets...it's hemp seeds though so not what you will be thinking :D It's supposed to be good for the Omegas and other things.

blue moon

01-09-15, 09:04

LSA is Linseed,Sunflower and Almonds you put them in a blender.I make it up for my sons and a couple of docs at the hospital...So it is medicinal Hemp?

I am now trying green lipped mussell capsules spose to be better than fish oil and Krill,probably a load of bull but will give them a shot.:D

MyNameIsTerry

01-09-15, 09:27

Ah, ok.

I had seen a product advertised as the new in thing after krill oil so these lipped mussell capsules must have been that.

You can make hemp milk in a blender from hemp seeds and water. It's only got trace amounts of what you find in cannabis so you wont be getting stoned off it :D They do have a decent amount of magnesium in them too but the Omega ratio is 3:1 6-3. It won't be medicinal, thats a drug isn't it? :winks:

SADnomore

02-09-15, 00:50

Further research is telling me nothing further about magnesium and dietary fat, argh! However, it has revealed that it is apparently best absorbed when taken apart from competing minerals. This would include the mineral-form C fizzy drink I take, soooo I will try taking it later with lunch, and at bedtime still.

Yes, I knew but had not been thinking about the need for K2 as "policeman" to calcium, so that the calcium doesn't deposit in joints and arteries instead. That has lit a fire under me to get back to the health food store and pick some up! Indeed, I have been taking increased doses of vitamin D since spring, when I asked my doc about going with 10,000 units and he said by all means! These past couple of weeks I have increased again to 20,000 units, at my DIL's urging. She lives in a cold climate, too. It has long been known that those of us in northern countries get little vitamin D from the sun, and a study done in Canada discussed how the "quality" of the D we get from the sun, especially in winter, is not adequate either. My doctor has stopped testing his patients for D levels, as he "knows" we are all too low. I will run by him that I am now taking 20,000 units next time I'm in. I just take the liquid drops, in each spoonful of omegas, but some instructions even say they can be licked off the back of a clean hand! Honestly, I just buy whichever drops are on sale, but they're really cheap.

Chia seeds are pretty cool in mixtures, aren't they? I used to add a few big spoonfuls of Greek yogurt, stir, and wait a few minutes while it turned all fluffy, then stir in berries and enjoy, but then the dreaded lactose intolerance reared its ugly head ... Still, it would be lovely in smoothies for thickness, especially if not using bananas. It's possible you are right about the higher omegas? I'm just going by an interactive nutrient profiles online site.

Lol! Now that you mention it, I happen to have a bottle of flaxseed oil in my fridge, purchased just before we went away, so I can use it to make my own salad dressing "to order".

Calcium. I have some lactose-free cheese in the fridge, and am going to get on that. I am trying to get most calcium from my diet, as it really is the best way for it to absorb, they say. But having said that, I am now taking a good cal-mag supplement again, one per day, I think it's only 650 mg calcium, but I have read that we can only absorb 500 mg at one time anyway. Because of my arthritic joints, I am being more cautious about supplementing with calcium, and as I say, if I can ever establish dairy again I will get up to at least the new RDA with that!

*http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/12/16/vitamin-k2.aspx

Haven't looked into the other things you've mentioned; I was using almond milk in my oats but there are so many additives and I don't have time to make my own, so, will be eating nuts and taking a run at lactose-free milk now.

Lol! Petra, at first I thought the LSA you were referring to was an acronym for a partner with whom you share your breakfast! Pepitas,or pumpkin seeds, are a great source of protein too! I sprinkle them on everything.

I bought a new vegan protein powder made with sacha inchi, a Peruvian seed/nut. Naturally high in protein, and is supposed to have omegas and antioxidants as well. I plan to use this on my "vegan days". Kind of expensive, I wouldn't want to rely on it totally, but it will top up my needs on those days. I bought a book on sprouting lentils and such, and look forward to lots of hot soups and other bean dishes this winter!

Terry, I was looking at SAD lamps and found one for about $85, over 10,000 lux, which is what is recommended. It even has battery backup! Maybe you could save up for one? I will be setting my alarm and getting up to have tea and look at my emails of a morning. My local health food store manager confirms that she will be bringing in a couple of different models this winter. I have looked online, but there are a lot of inferior ones there :P I really hesitate to tinker much more with meds, venlaxafine is stimulating too, another reason I don't want to use any more than I have to. 300 mg kept the depression at bay last February, but I was more propelled around to do what's needed, than self-motivated, lol!

---------- Post added at 17:50 ---------- Previous post was at 13:52 ----------

Time to split some of these other great topics off, yes?! Lol!
Petra, are you by chance vegetarian too, or vegan?

MyNameIsTerry

02-09-15, 06:21

I was looking at the lamps last year. The only issue for me right now is the risk of mania and the side effects of this med I'm on as I'm not sure whether I've suffered some slight mania with them.

Lactose issues - may have a solution for you. Ever heard of kefir? It comes as milk kefir and water kefir. It's an old thing, water has been around hundreds of years and the milk one for thousands. It's just fermenting from a starter culture. But the interesting thing is, the probiotic colony eats the lactose so if you leave it long enough, it eats it all. This is the common stage when you transfer the batch to the fridge anyway and start a new one as leaving it longer starts to increase the alcohol content from very low to something that can be beer strength.

When I was researching this to start brewing, I noticed articles where people have stated they are lactose intolerant but have no problems with it. there are even articles about people who drink it before a lactose meal and tolerate it fine which is presumed to be because the probiotics are in the stomach and eat the lactose so it is not digested.

So, perhaps that could be a solution because you could use normal milks so you get the calcium and this would give you a massive probiotic boost too because kefir is far richer than anything you can buy OTC in probiotic supplements. It's very cheap as you buy a starter culture, some brewing jars (which I bet you already have), cheesecloth or towel, elastic band, a sieve and then you just keep buying the milk you need. You will end up with too much culture too so people give it away, sell it, eat it for a massive massive boost or give it their pets. I know water kefir gives about 1-1.5 trillion bacteria (I think some say 5 trillion but I haven't checked that out so unsure whether it's accurate or not but I think it's about quantity when comparing to other probiotics like yogurt) across a number of strains. Milk kefir has a load of strains in it and I think delivers about the same. It only takes a couple of days to brew it in the pantry.

I'm going with water kefir as I lack the fridge space and need to store it in the pantry. The strains differ between the 2 but they contain many more than what you will find in cultured products in supermarkets. There is only 100 trillion healthy bacteria in the human body.

http://www.growyouthful.com/recipes/water-kefir.php
http://www.growyouthful.com/recipes/kefir.php
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/12/dr-campbell-mcbride-on-gaps.aspx
http://www.culturesforhealth.com/water-kefir-grains-composition-bacteria-yeast
http://www.culturesforhealth.com/milk-kefir-grains-composition-bacteria-yeast
http://www.orhaolam.com/uploads/KefirInShort.pdf

Milk kefir is also pretty versalite and some people make cheese with it or yogurt. So, how about some probiotic cheese you make from the milk you put through your ferments and then drink a little bit of the kefir brew? (assuming you don't want to drink that much of it?) I wonder if making cheese from it will allow you to prolong the life a bit? People use it like yogurt in receipes too.

You could always culture cerain veggies too like sauerkraut, pickle, etc. (I know you like your veggies) I'm just thinking all this could be a way to work your probiotics in off your link in the original post.

I wonder if this is why I am so fatigued as well and why I have started to have joint problems and this sciatica? I eat probiotic yogurt, probiotic cheese (Quark) and have an actimel drink a day at the moment. Maybe the calcium just isn't getting used due to low vitamin D due to my lack of sunlight?

I was looking at K2 after seeing this and it's not cheap. It's far cheaper to buy it with the D3 included from what I've seen so far. I was going to go for 5000UI so I thought I may try D3 on it's own at first unless there is a good price on a combined product. Just be careful about the MK issue. 4 & 7 are supposed to be the best with 7 seeming the popular one from what I've seen so far.

SADnomore

02-09-15, 20:40

Hmm. I hear you on the mania thing. Except for me, the "high" doesn't include good mood and delusions of grandeur. Just nervous energy :P No, I trust my diagnosis of SAD. ... And, as much as I have read that SSRI drugs can induce mania, these cases are normally those who were bi-polar, diagnosed or no. In my gut I feel that by this point in my life, I would have had the extremes that would qualify me already. But I understand your fear. ...

To me, it seems like all the more reason to try to manage on the lowest dose of med that works. I took another L-tryptophan this morning, empty stomach, an hour after my serrapeptase which was also on an empty stomach and so far so good. Now, the other day, mid-afternoon after taking the L-tryp I became suddenly very drowsy so I figure something (fat maybe?) hadn't quite digested from my lunch yet, and so it converted to melatonin instead of serotonin, lol! I want to get the "stores" up, so will continue with taking it probably every other morning or so until about mid-month. I think I will forego the SAMe after all, as it's main function is to increase serotonin as well, and by mid-October I expect to be doing an increase with the Effexor to 150 mg (and more yoga!)

Thank you so much for all the info on kefir, both milk and the water type that seems like a good fit for most of us. I had read a bit on it a while back, and goat kefir was being touted as the "best", can't remember why. I thought, hmmm, well, if anything is going to put me off it, the goat version will be the one, haha! So I bought a bottle at the health food store, plain, and also with blueberries. The blueberry was quite tasty, and actually the plain was fine too. A bit thick for using on cooked oats, I thought, but palatable which is key! Didn't get to finish them before they went out of date, sadly. More control with the water kind it seems, which is good.

Yes, I have read that also about MK-4 and MK-7. It is of note that MK-7 partially converts to 4, so I don't think it's critical to get an MK-4 exclusive source, but as the 4 is the one that binds most to calcium and ferries it where needed, I would still choose to feature it. I noticed the same as you, the kind with vitamin D is cheaper, oddly enough. But since the whole point is to be sure we are complementing increases of calcium with D and K2, any one with the others, then that may explain it! A good thing.

Not being vegetarian, maybe you could try having some pate, either goose liver or beef, as they are very high sources of K2? Not sure how you feel about those! Eggs contain roughly 50 mg each, and some cheeses such as Brie and edam are considered good choices too.

But, if we are going to be taking as much as say, 20,000 iu of Vitamin D, then a K2 (4) supplement of 5,000 mg does seem a good choice. This I say without knowing exactly what the ratio is of each of D and K2 as they relate to calcium, but wanting to increase the latter along with the D.

Here is one that fits the bill, and should keep us going for 180 days! :D Pricey to buy but cheap over the long haul!
http://www.amazon.ca/Carlson-Labs-Vitamin-Menatetrenone-Capsules/dp/B003IGHCU4/ref=pd_sim_sbs_121_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0JQYJ1V2PC6P7YBYFEWY

SADnomore

03-09-15, 04:19

Update. Went to the health food store only to find that the only ones in stock were all made up of mk7! :P Came home and had some cheese and a pickle, lol!

Will try the other health store further out, before week's end.

This supplier ships fast to the UK, same Carlson MK4, bottle of 60, lower price!
http://ca.iherb.com/product-reviews/Carlson-Labs-Vitamin-K2-5-mg-60-Capsules/6116/?p=8

MyNameIsTerry

03-09-15, 08:37

Some of the MK7's are made from natto to add further confusion. In fact, I was looking at this last night where it said that if you go for MK7 it should always be from natto! So, why not have MK4? What's the difference? I had read that MK7 is better than MK4. :shrug:

Well, I eat about 100g of Quark on a couple of crackers each day and thats a curd cheese I believe (it's similiar to cottage cheese without lumps though, so like a sour cream cheese) and I've read curd cheese is good for one of the other MK's. I love eggs too and eat those once or twice a week (may have to hard boil a few which I like and you can just down them as a snack easily).

I picked up some cheap D3 5000IU last night off Ebay. The wrong type of label colouring had been used so they were seconds. 354 for £6.99. I also found a MK7 (from natto) product that works out cheaper to buy on it's own along with D3 so this helps me out but it's not 100mcg, it's only 75mcg. I guess I will make a start and maybe add some in here & there but look towards diet where possible.

I saw a guy on one of the Amazon reviews stating above 10,000IU means adding K2 but came across a clinic's site saying from 5000-10,000UI they recommend adding K2 and they were talking about dosing up to 50,000 for their patients as once a week doses to make corrections.

People make kefir with coconut too but the problem is you need a high lactose content or they won't grow or ferment. So, only certain milks can be used. Whilst coconut can be used it will ruin the SCOBY so you need a backup to keep going. Changing the milk can alter the taste I seem to recall. Just be careful you don't add things like honey into the ferment, add it afterwards because it's antimicrobial properties will kill the kefir grains.

Have you read much about the brain-gut connection? There have been some reputable studies of this. There was one in rats/mice where they even severed the connection from the brain to observe that the fight or flight response was invoked by the gut-to-brain pathway. There are certainly some mood studies out there and one of the flora has been shown to impact on serotonin production. This is why I thought kefir would be good for you as it is very high and time tested.

Eggs seem like a double whammy here, K2 plus high in tryptophan (1g in 100g of egg whites). Is it the yolks or whites for the K2?

I've seen that turmeric can help with serotonin too as the curcumin in it crosses the blood-brain barrier and impacts on both serotonin and dopamine. Might be worth a look into that. Turmeric can be useful for inflammation and it's one that can help asthma sufferers so potentially a very useful (and cheap) supplement there.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2929771/

Ven gets a mention in there for depression and how curcumin enhanced it.

http://kellybroganmd.com/article/move-over-prozac-how-turmeric-helps-with-depression/

I saw on one website where it said it can be combined with SAMe safely.

I've seen people on here say turmeric helps them, I recall MrAndy mentioning it a few times. I wonder if this is why?

---------- Post added at 08:37 ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 ----------

I think I might give the linseed a go myself. I eat yoghurt daily anyway so it might make a good addition. Never tried it before.

I'll have a lookout for pumpkin seeds too as they seem to be good for tryptophan so would make a good addition to the linseed, maybe?

blue moon

03-09-15, 10:06

No I am not a vegie or vegan Marie I just like Tofu,chickpeas and all legumes.
Terry add LSA to your yoghurt.
Now I have been told not to eat so much legumes,I should be on the Paleo Diet....pfft.
amel milk is very good for you,if you can get it try it:D

MyNameIsTerry

04-09-15, 08:55

Marie,

Useful list of nuts & seeds by highest to lowest in trytophan:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-012079000000000000000-w.html?maxCount=52

Camel milk, Petra? That must be risky with those angry beasts :D

SADnomore

04-09-15, 14:52

Lol! Was thinking the same thing myself ... :D

Thanks for the list, Terry. Probably best to get from food, ongoing, meanwhile, I am boosting with the L-tryp. Empty stomach, 1/2 hr after my serrapeptase, so far so good... Today is my last day on the 120,000 units form, tomorrow I switch to the 90,000 units serrapeptase. I have just 10 days supply of these, after which I will decrease to the 60,000 units.

The idea is to find the lowest effective dose and carry on with that. I will mix up some magnesium oil and augment with it, and work in my physio exercises as well, it all helps! My sister takes curcumin, which is meant to reduce inflammation too, so I will look at taking that alongside. When I have bad flare-ups, I figure I can double up the 60,000s for a bit again, and will continue especially with the mag oil. I generally do get flares in the coldest part of the winter, and am hoping to minimize the acetaminophen (paracetamol) this year.

Petra, I know, I too have been told by the Paleos that by being vegetarian I am missing out, however, I do eat fish, shellfish, and eggs, I just prefer the days when I don't, lol! I love lentils and beans, and am trying to sprout them to avoid all these antinutrients they all point to. However, last time I did this using apple cider vinegar in the water, I bloated up like a balloon and couldn't get to sleep for the gas, even with the digestive enzyme for beans. ... Legumes of all sorts are such an economical choice, and large parts of the world have done well with them and rice for eons. I also love the idea of having assorted bags of dried ones in the cupboard, and a few different types of rice, and not having to head out to the store as much. Which is great when it is -60 with the windchill out there! :mad: ... Is it any wonder I have seasonal affective disorder? :wacko:

blue moon

05-09-15, 05:53

Camel milk is 3 times as rich in Vitamin C as cows milk,it is rich în iron,unsaturated fatty acids and B Vitamins,they have been drinking camel milk for years in the middle east.
I have made homemade Ricotta using Camel milk it has a slight salty taste and it is pure white,unlike cows milk.I also drink goat milk and make my cheese from it also :D

pulisa

05-09-15, 08:45

Can you still get the hump with camel milk?:winks:

MyNameIsTerry

06-09-15, 06:36

blue moon

06-09-15, 10:39

Terry.You said you would not post that picture of me and my camel,:blush:

MyNameIsTerry

09-09-15, 08:13

Marie,

What do you make of magnesium when it comes to working out the actual elemental magnesium?

As I understand it, there is usually a smaller amount of elemental and the rest is the stuff to allow it to digest. Good explanation here:

https://www.paleohacks.com/magnesium/help-me-figure-out-magnesium-how-to-calculate-elemental-magnesium-17726

The problem I have with it is that manufacturers don't all state the elemental values so you may have 400mg citrate but that won't deliver 400mg of magnesium, it will be far lower, and then digestion will lose some too. Some forms are more easily absorbed so we tend to head for the chelates for that reason but people heading for the salt versions like citrate may not be aware of just how llittle the product will even try to deliver before they fail to absorb some anyway.

Also, did you notice one of the comments on that website you posted that mentioned a bathing routine to rebalance magnesium? I know you can get magnesium chloride flakes these days (and they look pretty cheap when compared to the oils) but I think this would probably be the old Epsom salts as well which a few people on here have mentioned helped them feel better. I know you can get creams as well. Would any of that help your sister?

---------- Post added at 08:13 ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 ----------

Terry.You said you would not post that picture of me and my camel,:blush:

I thought it was the only one I could post, that one in the S&M gear would surely get me a ban...:winks::roflmao:

blue moon

10-09-15, 03:13

S&M photo is an old one,now I have cellulite I have decided to wear chaps and long leather sleeve to cover my tuck shop arms...lol :D

SADnomore

10-09-15, 05:53

Lol! Blue Moon, you slay me!

... Terry, I agree that most people probably don't realize how little elemental magnesium they are getting from most supplements, and the fact that some of that is lost to digestion. I am leaning towards the transdermal for at least part of my dose now for that reason alone. Plus I do think it helps some against pain. Just had a therapeutic massage yesterday and had the therapist use straight mag gel instead, and I don't ache today like I did last time.

I did look at the spray and the lotion, but the elemental magnesium for these was pitiful, and they were much more costly than the gel, which at least can be mixed with distilled water, for more applications. Although, at only 60 mg elemental mag per 1 ml gel, even with several diluted applications per day a person would probably still need to supplement with capsules.

No, I missed that part about Epsom salts baths, Terry. However, I have just read a commentor on the "oil" site, stating that magnesium flakes are the chloride form which is more absorbable than epsom salts, (the sulfate form), and therefore much less needs to be used in the bath. Even epsom salts are no longer as cheap as they once were, and I was finding it starting to get costly to be going through so much when I used to get a killer massage regularly, and then come home to try to forestall the aches with them in a bath. maybe a mixture of both types would be cheaper and more effective at the same time.

I am now considering the flakes for making "oil spray" as well. Tbh, I didn't buy those just because of their weight. It cost a lot as it was to mail/pack the small bottles of gel I bought, and we were interested mainly in trialing them for pain relief. Now back at home, I don't know that I will be able to find the flakes here, but if I do I will try to find a spray bottle, and use Wellnessmama's recipe. I imagine this is the link I posted before?

http://wellnessmama.com/5804/make-your-own-magnesium-oil/

One commenter advises warm rather than hot water is best for transdermal absorption, I see. Warnings are there against pregnant women taking baths altogether! I knew about sauna/hot tubs, but nothing about baths as such ...

I think their weight would make magnesium flakes prohibitive to buy online, unless one could wangle free shipping. I will check the pharmacies and health food stores here for them, fingers crossed. I don't think the bottle of gel is going to last as long as I had initially figured!

M.

---------- Post added at 22:53 ---------- Previous post was at 21:37 ----------

Update: In the comments section of the maker of the Ancient Minerals brand of magnesium oil spray, someone posted this recipe for a bedtime cream application. (Note: many people use coconut oil as a carrier, as it is believed to assist in absorption)

Hi - I used raw organic shea butter, raw organic coconut oil, heated together very slowly, using very low heat in a double boiler until both oils melted. I added magnesium chloride liquid, and blended with a hand blender (stick blender). Put the mixture in a clean mason jar, then in the fridge. This method seemed to work - the liquids all blended and have not separated at room temp. I use this topically on my arms, legs, feet and stomach before bed. I may have made the mix a bit too strong, as it makes me really sleepy! My husband too.

-can you share the ratios you used. I would like some sleepy moisturizer. =)

1/4 coconut oil to 3/4 raw organic shea butter. The magnesium separated out in the next batch I made :( -- which I don't understand! THe only difference is that my old handblender broke and we have a new one. Still, it's really good! You can even pat on the magnesium and then follow with the shea/coconut oil mix. That works too.
Oh! Pat the magnesium on your armpits -- absorbs more quickly.

-Can you specify how much magnesium oil you used?

About a tablespoon.

.... I also read about homemade transdermal "patches" created by soaking gauze or cheesecloth in the oil, applying, and then wrapping with heavy plastic wrap. :shades:

MyNameIsTerry

15-09-15, 06:28

Looking at the goat's milk kefir, it can be made the same way as with cow's milk. So, it won't affect the grains like coconut milk and others do. (ones that affect the grains mean you will end up damaging (lack of food to nourish them) them so need another "mother" to start with which means more than one colony of starter which is impractical with kefir reall).

Here is link explaining the issues with using raw milk that you will need to know if you are avoiding pasteurised products:

http://www.culturesforhealth.com/raw-milk-kefir

If you are OK with goat's milk, how about using it to make some cheese too? You can even make kefir cheese. Quark seems to be a good source for K2 too which is good for me as I eat it daily. You can make quark out of goat's milk too but you will probably find store bought quark will be cow's milk. I plan on making my own shortly anyway and it's supposed to be nicer. I've tried two brands so far and one was very acidic in taste so I didn't like it (quark is supposed to be sour but mild) but the better branded one was fine. It took a few "eats" to get used to the sourness but after that I liked it. It's pretty versatile too as it can be put on things in the same way you do with yogurt and this is how they tend to eat it a lot where it comes from (Germany). It's very easy to make at home as well.

There is a question on here about pasteurisation and vitamin K and it says it is heat-resistant so perhaps worth checking the attached article as it mentions observation through tests of some kind:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/dear-mark-vitamin-k2-washing-eggs-tapioca-flour-short-term-grain-feeding-and-a-raw-fed-pack/#axzz3lmQUTLFz

Some more alternatives in fish shown on here that links back into the article in the link above I think as it talks about the same person:

http://www.mothering.com/forum/365-traditional-foods/659399-magic-ingredient-vitamin-k2-article-nina-planck.html

It's interesting that K2 deficiency can result in fatigue and that K2 is in it's largest quantities in saliva to protect from tooth decay and in the brain. I wonder why in the brain? Something to look into there to see whether it's any help with anxiety/depression maybe?

It does say in a section in a post on there that there was a study of K2 helping children with asthma. So, something for me to look into there as that would be very helpful. I notice the kefir allergy link too and thats another interest for me to see if that could help with my asthma.

Did you notice it mentioned fermented veggies in there? So, you could easily make some sauerkraut or perhaps some pickles? That way you also get some more probiotics too.

Here is the quantity of K in goat's milk:

http://milkfacts.info/Nutrition%20Facts/Nutrient%20Content.htm

It's seems to be MK7 for kefir. I'm struggling to find a quantity though.

How about kombucha? You can buy this or you can make it. It takes more care than kefir though.

SADnomore

16-09-15, 04:08

You may be right, or, rather, Mark et al may be right about Vitamin K and pasteurization. Most links I see are either government or else from the dairy industry, and call me cynical, but I can't imagine them saying anything negative about pasteurization, it being the law 'n all ...

http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.ca/2010/05/cheeses-vitamin-k2-content.html This link kind of supports the use of (aged) cheeses and notes the increase in Vitamin K due to fermentation. I'm thinking it may be the best sort of dairy source we can buy, at least in North America (unless you can find a friend with a cow or a goat!) I noted the comment from the guy about Gruyere cheese from Switzerland, made from raw milk.

In my obsessive reading on the subject, I have learned that the Swiss are adamant about their use of raw milk for their cheeses. And jealously protective of their Brie. Yes, traditional, award winning, beautifully healthy and sinfully delicious Brie was first created in Switzerland, and the French are mere pretenders. In fact, lawsuits erupted when they tried to use the same seals of excellence awarded the Swiss Brie, and they do not have rights to these European seals. Although they continue to trumpet their own seals. I would dearly love to buy some of the true Brie, but I have not been able to find any.

"The Raw Milk Cheesemakers Association hold that cheese produced from raw milk have distinctive complexity and depth of flavor absent from pasteurized-milk cheeses.[38]"
Wikipedia.

Thanks for the advice, but I'm afraid I would still manage to kill myself if I tried to make my own cheeses, haha! ... I did spot a cheese today from Spain made from raw milk, however, it contains animal rennet so I didn't buy any. :mad:

I confess, I love the bottled kombucha I tried in BC health food stores. High in sugar though, and also quite energizing, so best taken in the morning. I will have ... We don't have a real health food store where I live, the three we have each have only one refrigerated case filled with nutritional enzymes, and maybe the kind of omegas that require refrigeration. Expensive vitamins, huge vats of whey protein. A few dry goods. That's it. There is a larger spinoff store run by the same people as the "hulk" place downtown, I may check it out, but it too is a franchise, so fresh foods and bottled items are probably not in the script. Unfortunately I have too much on my plate to make my own foods, more's the pity ...

No "real" delicatessens either. So, not much in the way of imported cheeses, or even really good domestics. I did see some goat brie (pasteurized) in two grocery stores today, am holding out for a double cream if I can find one! Oddly, a serving contains only 2% of the RDA for calcium (?) and no cheeses list vitamin K at all. I did find a nice cheddar from the UK though, ha ha! A Snowden smoked cheddar, made with vegetable rennet. :) It lists 'milk' without specifying that it's pasteurized, and being aged, it is possible that it may not be (?) 20% calcium per serving. I will take my enzymes and try it with some fruit tomorrow, I'm sure it will be good! ... Tonight I tried a grilling cheese. Forgot the enzymes and I have blown up like a balloon here. Chased dinner with the enzymes, that at least stopped the burning in my gut ... Ugh.