serotonin/adraline glands ?

[tricia56]

Just want to ask if anyone knows if anxiety is caused by low serotonin or too much adranaline only asking because im abit confused as i thought that anxiety was caused by too much adrenalin not low seritonin as the physciatrist i saw wensday said anxiety is caused by seritonin levels not adranalin so just i would ask on here if anyone knew if that is true.

[Danron]

I think the confusion is because they both have a part to play. The current thinking on the cause of anxiety disorders is that low serotonin has a part to play in causing anxiety disorders (amongst other things such as genetics and environment). So that can be the cause of the problem. Adrenaline on the other hand is produced by your body when you feel fear to help you respond (fight or flight mode) so it is part of the cause of the way you feel when your anxious. I'm sure the answer is much more complex then that but in a way your both right. Hope that helps and really sorry if it doesn't make sense xx

[pulisa]

I don't think it has been proved for sure that low serotonin plays a critical part in anxiety/depression. At the moment the experts latch onto it but in years to come I reckon it'll be something else which will be hailed as the "culprit"

[MyNameIsTerry]

The issue is balance.

Too much glutamate, the largest neurotransmitter, and you will be bouncing off the walls with racing thoughts. That's where GABA comes in, the one the Benzo's work on, as the second largest. Then you have ones like Serotonin, Acetylcholine, Dopamine, Epinephrine & Norepinephrine (adrenaline), Histamine, etc.

Glutamate has been seen as a possible issue in OCD, and some substances have been seen to help with parts of it. So, if it was just Serotonin, that wouldn't be possible. NAC, for instance, has been seen to produce results with skin picking/hair pulling, a related OCD issue, and that has been found to work on a specific Glutamate system.

If it was only about Serotonin, why do many of the meds fail people? It's obviously a complex issue.

Low Serotonin has been observed in anxiety & depression but the science is still inconclusive whether it is a cause or effect issue.

It could be that a psychiatrist wants to keep things simple for a patient and just talk the basics? The question tends to be in us GAD people, what is keeping the adrenaline flowing at a higher level most of the time? Is it low Serotonin i.e. we are burning through too quickly or simply have experienced a decline in it (remember I was in my thirties when my GAD started).

So, in terms of what is causing you to feel so anxious, it's adrenaline being pumped out. It's very easy to understand that in panic. What is the reason behind it can be many things and it's not just about low Serotonin as there are many physical disorders, meds or even deficient states that can cause anxiety e.g. dehydration.

[Danron]

It's blooming complex that's for sure! :)

[pulisa]

Nobody knows really. It's just the theory of the day...

[MCan]

Histamine intolerance is the intolerance towards “normal” levels of histamine in food caused by a decreased activity of the histamine-degrading enzymes diamine oxidase (DAO) or histamine N-methyltransferase (HNMT). In the gut the main enzyme is DAO while in other parts of the body like the skin and brain the enzyme HNMT degrades histamine.
Histamine intolerance is caused by an impaired enzyme activity.
Enzyme production problems (inflammatory bowel diseases, food deficiences)
Enzyme inhibitors (certain biogenic amines, certain medicines)
Enzyme competitors (biogenic amines)
Enzyme genetic defects
Mast cells are part of the body’s defence system to protect against infection and injury. Mast cells contain histamine, heparin, prostaglandins and other pro-inflammatory mediators. A well-know unwanted mast cell degranulation is via an allergic reaction to an allergen which raises IgE levels in the blood.
Non-allergic mast cell degranulation is also possible which is then called Mast Cell Activation Syndrome. One example is Mastocytosis which leads to too many mast cells.
Skin: itch (pruritis), skin redness/flushing, red spots, skin rash/eczema, hives (urticaria).
Gastro-intestinal tract: stomach acid reflux, diarrhea, nausea, vomiting.
Respiratory: runny nose (rhinitis), bronchocontriction –> asthma, chronic cough.
Vascular: vasodilation –> low blood pressure (hypotension), dizziness, fainting, anaphylaxis, oedema
Histamine Intolerance & Mast Cell Activation cascade of symptoms
Bronchocontriction makes you more sensitive to low oxygen levels and so you may develop symptoms of hypoxia when for example room ventilation is bad.
Shortness of breath
Chest pain
Tension-type headache
Muscle pain/cramp, Frozen shoulder
Problems with speech, Stuttering
Hearing problems
Hair loss , Cold feet (the extremities of the body)
Tired eyes
Vision/Focus problems
Confusion , Disorientation
Tinnitus
Brain white matter lesions –> Vascular dementia
Sleep-apnea , Nose pain
Coma, Death
Dysmenorrhea
The production of Levo-dopa from which dopamine is synthesized requires oxygen!! Hypoxia therefore may cause low dopamine levels.
Cognition: problems with memory, attention/concentration, problem-solving
Motor control (Parkinsonism): unsteady gait
Prolactin secretion: low libido
Chemoreceptor Trigger Zone: Nausea, Vomiting, Lack of appetite (anorexia)
Mood: Depression
Migraine-aura
Hallucinations: noise, smell
Your body will respond to hypoxia by producing adrenaline which increases your heart- and breathing rate.
Rapid heart beat
Rapid breathing
Insomnia –> Fatigue
Nightmares
Migraine
Anxiety
Panic attacks
Hyperactivity
Sweating
Urination
Thirst
Constipation
Vasoconstriction –> High blood pressure (hypertension)
Pheochromocytoma?
Parotid gland
Thyroid
Myeline
Mouth (sores)
Nose (nasal congestion)
Throat
Etc.
Uterine muscle contraction
Unexplained bruising / bleeding
Check if you recognize the symptoms of histamine intolerance and/or mast cell activation. Yes, then go to the next step.
Understand histamine intolerance and/or mast cell activation. Read, read, and read.
Register in a diary what you eat, which medicines you take, other possible triggers and the symptoms you experience.
Eliminate the suspicious food and other triggers.
Re-introduce the food/trigger after a while, in order to find out, if this particular food/trigger does or does not provoke adverse reactions.
When your family members have the same type of symptoms you could test for genetic defects in the enzymes.
Hypoxia can be determined by monitoring with a finger-pulse oximeter.
Remove your dental AMALGAMS (50% toxic mercury!!) SAFELY
Prevent leaky gut
Increase the activity of enzymes
Decrease histamine input
Prevent mast cell degranulation
Avoid vasodilators
Decrease aggressive prostaglandins
Increase oxygen saturation
Prevent the effect of histamine

[MyNameIsTerry]

These are just chemical transmitters at the end of the day, mental disorders are about far more otherwise the simple & only required strategy would be to rebalance them. That is achievable, so why don't they do it? It would save them billions a year. Because they don't actually know and have a bunch of theories and interconnecting factors.

Take neuroplasticity, for instance. This process changes how we think & behave because we "learn" to be another way. So, if you have spent 9 years, like me, simply correcting your imbalances isn't going to alter the fact my thinking is different and skewed to the negative - I have to do that. It may help me get their quicker though.

Also, we often talk about side effects but we probably don't always know why they are there. For instance, Serotonin is used in short term memory & learning. So, if it low it is no wonder you are struggling to learn new healthy behaviours and struggling to concentrate.

It's also not all about meds, many things boost Serotonin levels in the brain, and the others too, because the brain decides to make these chemicals in response to something. Hence why exercise or meditation can help, because they encourage that system and more is made.

[pulisa]

Psychiatrists are only going to plug their own products after all. Which in turn have been pushed on them by the drugs companies

[uru]

Nobody knows really. It's just the theory of the day...

This. :yesyes:

[tricia56]

Hi thkS every one , i think the info some of you hav e mentioned is abit too confuseing to me and abit complecated for me to be honest, the only reason i asked is because of wat the physciatrist said to me reguarding the seritonin and that she said that every person who has any kind of mental health problem has to take meds along side any talking therapy which i thought surely she cant be right as if that was the case then every single person who has any kind of metal health issues and asked for therapy of some sort would have to take meds (thatsonly my opinion by the way) i dont know if weather she was correct in wat she said or weather she just said it because she knew how i felt about not taking the meds to try and get me to take them.

[Fishmanpa]

i dont know if weather she was correct in wat she said or weather she just said it because she knew how i felt about not taking the meds to try and get me to take them.

Obviously, she has access to your records and the fact that therapy alone has not been effective thus far for you. Please re-read my analogy of that walk in the rain again. The way I see it, the worse that can happen is it doesn't work for you. Even with side effects, a few weeks worth of possibly feeling rough in the big scheme of your life is worth the risk if it helps your quality of life in the long run and/or makes the therapy more effective.

Best wishes and good luck in whatever you decide.

Positive thoughts

[tricia56]

Hi fishmanpa sorry i did read your reply and i do understand what your saying to try and look at the meds in s diffrent way, but to be really honest with you even trying to think about them in a positive way to try and bring myself to take them i just cant do it im just too fearful of them i get so scared even at the thought of taking them and end up crying because i just cant seem to take them and beat myself up everyday because of the way i feel about the meds which just makes me even more anxiouse everyday because im worring so much shall i or shall i not take them and or why cant i even try to take them and give them ago to see if they will help me and i just get so overwelmed by it all and start to think that everyone thinks that im not helping myself by not even trying to take them .
.

[Fishmanpa]

Hi fishmanpa sorry i did read your reply and i do understand what your saying to try and look at the meds in s diffrent way, but to be really honest with you even trying to think about them in a positive way to try and bring myself to take them i just cant do it im just too fearful of them i get so scared even at the thought of taking them and end up crying because i just cant seem to take them and beat myself up everyday because of the way i feel about the meds which just makes me even more anxiouse everyday because im worring so much shall i or shall i not take them and or why cant i even try to take them and give them ago to see if they will help me and i just get so overwelmed by it all and start to think that everyone thinks that im not helping myself by not even trying to take them .
.

Well hopefully, this fear is something that can be addressed in therapy if all goes well. Keep in mind there are non SSRI type meds that may help with little or no side effects. I'm on Buspar and I can start and stop without issue. I start taking them about two weeks prior to my follow up appointments and they really help me with the stress and "scanxiety".

Again... good luck in whatever you decide to do. It would be a wonderful thing to see you start kicking some dragon behind for a change! :)

Positive thoughts

[tricia56]

Thk you so much fismhmanpa anfd ill look into the busbar xx.

[Danron]

What ever you decide with the meds I hope you start feeling better soon, hugs xxx

[tricia56]

Thk you danron xx

[MyNameIsTerry]

You are right, Tricia. We have NICE guidelines alone that completely contradict what your psychiatrist said. Those were produced by field experts on panels, people more respected than who we see, top of the game people.

Something you often see in the medical profession is how they drip feed what they want you to hear. If your psychiatrist has knowledge of a patient afraid of meds they may choose to say this to avoid introducing more doubt. I don't agree with personally, it's an old fashioned NHS approach from the days when our doctors answered to no one. Could it be this?

You could ask about the Buspar. But it's only licenced for short term treatment in the UK and it's not seen as having evidence that it works at all. Even on licence, you don't take it "as and when" you take it several times a day, everyday. Getting to a psychiatrist means you have someone who is willing to prescribe "off label", in other words they will prescribe based on need if clinical judgement means it is best. You won't get this with GP's because "off labelling" means sticking your neck on the block if it goes wrong. Psychiatrists are specialists so they have more understanding of when this is ok.

So, there is no harm in asking.

Personally, I don't think it's something they would use long term in isolation. Buspar is used like Benzo's, short term symptom relief. Every med comes with side effects profiles, even Buspar, but they can be less aggressive than other like SSRI/SNRI's. It's not the only med, there are others a psychiatrist can consider that are also licenced long term that may be more appropriate. But you won't avoid the possibility of side effects as they all come with them. Some are known to have less of a chance to cause them than others so talk to them and see if they can factor this in. However, it will always been individual.

You have our support on here and hopefully you have the support of your family. Whilst it would be nice if they factored in getting onto meds into your therapy, it's unlikely. You can certainly work in it after, but these people tend to push to start meds as opposed to treating a pill phobia first. It's crap to me, but it tends to be this way from others on the forum having the same problems. Also, any side effects periods tend to prevent much movement in therapy as (if you have side effect that is, you may be lucky and have very few!) you can feel rough.

See what they say, tell us and we can try to help you.

I'm all for the realistic approach but it's not what you want to hear when you are already struggling. The reason I am this way is I have tried two meds so far and the first time I ended up under the care of the crisis team and the second I didn't. I bet you are thinking "the first med must have had worse side effects"? But you would be wrong. The second med had far worse side effects for me. The difference was that the first time I was completely unprepared by my GP who when asked about side effects answered "some sweating and loose stools". This was a world away from what I experienced and I was new to anxiety/depression back then. It hit me hard BUT the second time around when I asked he again said "some sweating and loose stools", I knew he was probably talking rubbish. Again, it was a world away from that and it was hard BUT I kept telling myself it's only side effects, it will change any day now. After a shorter period of intense problems compared to the previous med, it did. I felt relief.

I got through that because I took the realistic view that these meds are likely to make me feel worse before they made me feel better. I also took the view that I could either sit & suffer, or try. I decided to find the courage to try but I was very very worried about it all as I remembered my first experience.

It never leaves, Tricia. I need to switch mine at some point and those thoughts are still in there, the questions, the worries. They are just rationalised, realistic and not as strong anymore as I am stronger now.

Fear of meds is very common. But you can do it. So many of us start like that too. :hugs:

P.S. don't worry about the complex science. I doubt many GP's would understand some of this either :winks: Recovery is about some learning and a whole bunch of "micro steps". You don't focus on the end goal, you work towards a better stage and then you do it again. All movement towards your goal is progress and that's all that matters however you achieve it.