Whats the point in a PIP assessment when they ignore assessor comments?

[confabulated]

When they ignore everything your ATOS assessor has written and explain that you havent provided medical evidence to back up the criteria. Especially when medical evidence has to be provided in order to obtain a PIP assessment. This renders the whole process obsolete - they may as well get a note from my GP.

My friend is registered blind and inferences were accepted - for example she didnt need to medically prove that she couldn’t walk 100 meters unaided this inference was acceptable as it was obvious.

However, no inferences are acceptable if you have a mental health condition - they have to be backed up with medical evidence (in my case at least). However, how can any medical expert truly provide this evidence if they dont live with me. They also have to accept inferences based on my mental health conditions and my testament.

I am quite sure I could pay for this by explaining to a psychiatrist and then paying for a report but what is the difference between me doing that and explaining to a medically trained PIP assessor. Why isn’t the evidence provided by the PIP assessor seen as medical evidence as they are a medical practitioner? What then is the point in recruiting medical practitioners?

Whole thing seems to stink of contradictions and serves to put people with mental health conditions as a disadvantage. I have had no suicidal ideation for 2 weeks but now its a constant because of this system.

So, as I don't get any support and am seen as capable to go back to work which ended up with a suicide attempt at the end of last year due to my mental state. Despite the fact I am signed off because of my mental state.

[unfit for work]

I have a similar problem with esa. the assessors lie claiming things like "he heard with both ears" when I have been deaf in one ear since birth. The whole process is corrupt. I suggest you complain to your MP. Best of luck

[NoPoet]

The DWP told me I would be entitled to PIP for aspergers, ADHD and GAD until at least December 2016. A month after telling me this, they cut me off, as I was reassessed due to developing psoriatic arthritis.

I could not walk without three medications and physiotherapy, but at their reassessment, they scored me LOWER than they had when I just had autism and ADHD, despite the arthritis being a progressive and incurable condition which has limited the rest of my life.

The DWP work with Capita, who are the least-motivated bunch of unskilled monkeys you'll ever endure. They're this bad because Capita treats its staff like battery hens. It doesn't provide adequate training and it sets stringent targets which staff are disciplined if they don't meet. Meeting these targets makes it nearly impossible to provide adequate service to anyone. Capita also provide customer service for O2, which is why the waiting times are usually 45-60 mins, as well as British Gas, Npower and EE, all of whom are known for having poor customer service (although Capita are way better than those companies' in-house teams, which is why those companies use Capita).

They made numerous mistakes, they cut me off without sending a decision letter and their reassessment was a total joke. In my case, they relied ENTIRELY on the health assessor's distorted and outright farcical report. Both the assessor and the DWP omitted or changed facts to suit their decision, and openly discriminated against me under the Equality Act 2010. I wrote a seven-page letter pointing out 54 mistakes which they ignored.

So I'm seeing those bitches in court. For all my difficulties, they've challenged my intelligence, which was their biggest mistake.

[MyNameIsTerry]

The DWP work with Capita, who are the least-motivated bunch of unskilled monkeys you'll ever endure. They're this bad because Capita treats its staff like battery hens. It doesn't provide adequate training and it sets stringent targets which staff are disciplined if they don't meet. Meeting these targets makes it nearly impossible to provide adequate service to anyone. Capita also provide customer service for O2, which is why the waiting times are usually 45-60 mins, as well as British Gas, Npower and EE, all of whom are known for having poor customer service (although Capita are way better than those companies' in-house teams, which is why those companies use Capita).

Those staff servicing the Npower contract were TUPE transferred from Npower so they were the same people you would be calling before.

Npower designed it's own destruction with it's new >£200m SAP system that they were constantly told didn't work. They switched it on, it didn't work. The complaints skyrocketed and they finally had to admit it didn't work, as their staff were telling them for years, as Ofgem were called in.

Prior to all that, Npower were not always the worst, and they varied on the complaints charts. British Gas sunk to the bottom for some time...due to their new SAP systems which didn't work either. There was a trend in there, the same consultants working on the programmes.

Strategic decisions, and when they go wrong, are the fault of senior management, not the staff who are bashing their heads against walls trying to get them to listen. This is why I sympathise with the workers, they are usually getting it from the customers because their senior managers don't care.

Npower also sacked 600 people and shipped their jobs off the India, something they started a few years before. These staff were highly experience and well trained and worked on very complex account issues, but you won't know that as the media reports downplayed the work. The people in India were badly trained and by people who mostly didn't have a clue, some getting awarded the role because they were mates with the people deciding who went out there. This all happened in the years before it hit the fan for Npower, so something else to consider about their reputation there.

If you think Capita's staff are way better than Npower's then you are joking.

[NoPoet]

Only just seen this. Terry, you are presenting "facts" about companies I know and have worked for. Npower were at the bottom of the big six for their complaints performance since at least 2014, probably earlier, and only moved up one place at the end of 2015. I believe they are currently third or fourth for complaints.

I have seen in depth SWOT analyses conducted by Npower about themselves and their competitors with details and figures that have been released to the public domain, but I have also seen the insider-only stuff too.

I am intimately acquainted with Capita and while I do not claim to be the foremost expert on such a large company, I am very aware of the general level of competency, training and quality of its staff.

You don't sound like you know very much from personal experience and are quoting generic, public domain details published in Facebook "news" articles. Why do you think Npower made so many staff redundant in 2014 and contracted Capita in Yorkshire to do their work? The Indian staff do admin work, and a bloody awful job they make of it too.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Only just seen this. Terry, you are presenting "facts" about companies I know and have worked for. Npower were at the bottom of the big six for their complaints performance since at least 2014, probably earlier, and only moved up one place at the end of 2015. I believe they are currently third or fourth for complaints.

I have seen in depth SWOT analyses conducted by Npower about themselves and their competitors with details and figures that have been released to the public domain, but I have also seen the insider-only stuff too.

I am intimately acquainted with Capita and while I do not claim to be the foremost expert on such a large company, I am very aware of the general level of competency, training and quality of its staff.

You don't sound like you know very much from personal experience and are quoting generic, public domain details published in Facebook "news" articles. Why do you think Npower made so many staff redundant in 2014 and contracted Capita in Yorkshire to do their work? The Indian staff do admin work, and a bloody awful job they make of it too.

Then you don't actually know much about Npower from my point of view. Given I know more about the situation about their back office, we're you front office NE by any chance? There is obviously a lot you don't know about the back office and they would be very unhappy by your comment about Capita being better trained.

I won't go into my connections with Npower but I'm well aware of the situation from the inside and was also privy to a lot information from management level as well as director level, industry level, etc. If you think Npower contracted out on the basis of quality then I can tell you have no knowledge of the back office processing bases as the quality was far worse in India and that was known for years but it didn't stop it going ahead. It's a complex industry that takes years to learn and the staff in the Midlands offices were highly experienced, I knew many of them. Some I still know.

Complaints went into meltdown due to SAP, before that they were not always at the bottom. SWOT analysis? I'm only talking about Ofgems figures, the internal numbers are far worse. The periods before what you quote show the movement. I'll assume you mean the Ofgem complaints reports since competitors wouldn't share such information. SAP implementation caused Bgas to drop to last place in previous years and they had to do a lot of work to recover from that. Everyone knew Npower would plummet, the SAP system was full of issues but they wanted it to go ahead regardless despite quite a few pushbacks on the release.

I'm not sure what you think the staff could do to prevent or resolve complaints when the system wouldn't allow them to do much of anything. You can't blame the staff for that.

Also, remember India was Tata, another outsourcing operation. Their staff in India were treated quite badly too and those who spoke to them came away understanding why - because they just sacked them if they raised an issue.

A lot of complaints side was a mess before though and a lot of that can be blamed on mismanagement, constant moves of staff causing skills to be lost for years, process gaps, the turkey system CCCP migrated into that was worse than the previous system for some of us (remember ICS/IB and the crappy interface?). To be honest, I thought you might have worked out I was an "insider" from my knowledge of the back office migration as that wasn't covered in the media other than the numbers with a bland statement about they process bills which was far from it.

Thank you for trying to downplay it by stating I use Facebook for my information. You really couldn't be more wrong. I don't know about Capita but I know a hell of a lot about areas of Npower's business due to my work. I would suggest you think about why Npower are closing down all their offices. They have been doing this for decades as it allows them to ditch higher paid staff for cheaper resource in developing areas. The staff in India were trained by the wrong people with substandard LWP's (some weren't even right) and very few of those that went to train had the knowledge or experience to do it so to be honest, it's hardly the staff's fault in India for that, it's the management.

[NoPoet]

Then you don't actually know much about Npower from my point of view.

I think my understanding is broader than yours, which means I might be vague about some facts, but I've got the bigger picture, as I also know about their relationship with Capita.


There is obviously a lot you don't know about the back office...
Such as? EDIT: And how is it relevant?


... they would be very unhappy by your comment about Capita being better trained.
At what point did I say this? And what point exactly are you trying to make here? That by being "very unhappy" they are better trained? If so, why do they make so many mistakes? Why are meter exchanges taking at least 90 days to update, if they ever are? Why do they not work handoffs? Why is it virtually impossible to understand the notes they leave, if they feel the need to leave any? Why do they look at something, put a note on to say they can't work it for some reason, then fail to notify the advisor who referred it to them, so it sits with nothing being done until the customer rings back days or weeks later? Why don't they refer things into the correct queues instead of closing it and leaving it unworked? (The latter point wouldn't be an issue if Capita/Npower front line staff did their jobs in the first place.)

The back office team is held in very poor regard by UK-based call centre staff for the above reasons.

I also believe I said Capita staff are poorly trained and motivated. This is because absence rates are so high the management cannot allocate sufficient "offline" time for call centre staff to come off the phones and attend training or meetings. Meetings are regularly cancelled on all of Capita's departments and on many departments people do not have coaching or development, or receive it infrequently. Vitally important briefs are disseminated via email which not everyone receives or reads, or on the intranet which people don't have time to read unless they do it in their own time.



Given I know more about the situation about their back office, we're you front office NE by any chance?
Not exactly, although I am based in the North. I don't want to say too much as what I'm saying in this thread is a dismissable offence.


Stuff about SAP
SAP is not, and has never been, fit for purpose. Npower looked at what British Gas were doing and saw they were having success with SAP, so Npower bought into SAP. However, their corporate espionage was as cack-handed as their customer service, and they didn't realise British Gas spent a significant amount of money customising SAP. Npower refused to do this.

SAP wouldn't allow refunds to be sent to some customers. SAP applied billing blocks which staff cannot see or remove ("ZZ BILLING LOCK IN PLACE") so customers could not be billed. It would produce and then immediately reverse random bills, often of thousands of pounds, and while these were never sent to customers, customers were receiving bills which still referred to these fictional amounts, causing great distress and confusion.

SAP would cancel direct debits, or would say direct debits were live then not collect them, or it would take random payment amounts, or you just could not reactivate them at all. SAP also didn't like Santander bank accounts and would not take direct debit payments from them. Bear in mind all of this led to spiralling customer debts.


If you think Npower contracted out on the basis of quality then I can tell you have no knowledge of the back office processing bases as the quality was far worse in India and that was known for years but it didn't stop it going ahead.
Npower contrated out to CAPITA on the basis of quality, making their own staff redundant (these staff facing redundancy had to train Capita teams to do their jobs). The staff hired by Capita and made redundant by Npower were customer service advisors and various other departments. Capita also has its own complaints team (so there are three complaints teams, one run by Npower, the executive complaints team who I also believe are Npower, the third by Capita!

Nobody contracts outside the UK for quality, they do this for cost.


Complaints went into meltdown due to SAP, before that they were not always at the bottom.
I never said they were. And I agree many complaints were down to SAP, but Npower was in a very bad place for a very long time and I was dealing with manager level and ombudsman level complaints. I was part time but ended up doing full time hours, and still could not keep up with the workload. The situation was an absolute disgrace and Capita staff were being paid hundreds of pounds as a "thankyou" for not leaving (due to massive staff turnover and absence levels).

Npower's systems suck massively, but its processes are convoluted and confusing. They have two separate knowledge bases (SOP Library and Atom) which staff need to consult for processes and advice. They close departments and change phone numbers without advising other units or updating the telephone numbers on the call database.



I'm not sure what you think the staff could do to prevent or resolve complaints when the system wouldn't allow them to do much of anything. You can't blame the staff for that.
As I just stated, Npower was in a hole before the idiotic decision to use SAP, then the even more idiotic decision to do nothing with it for months when it needed a total overhaul. The Ofgem investigation took forever but seemed to help matters along. However, the shoddy training, the convoluted way new material is disseminated, the fact that everyone seems to know or believe different things, these are down to the management and the training staff.


A lot of complaints side was a mess before though and a lot of that can be blamed on mismanagement, constant moves of staff causing skills to be lost for years, process gaps, the turkey system CCCP migrated into that was worse than the previous system for some of us (remember ICS/IB and the crappy interface?)
You just contradicted the previous point you made.


Also, remember India was Tata, another outsourcing operation. Their staff in India were treated quite badly too and those who spoke to them came away understanding why - because they just sacked them if they raised an issue.
As much as I empathise, what's that got to do with this?


To be honest, I thought you might have worked out I was an "insider" from my knowledge of the back office migration as that wasn't covered in the media other than the numbers with a bland statement about they process bills which was far from it.
With respect, and don't see this as a personal attack, whenever you respond to me you try to "dazzle" me with "facts" and "knowledge" which in nearly every case have been incorrect or not even relevant, so I didn't take you seriously this time either.

You do have a lot of knowledge about Npower, but you misinterpret the things I say or else put words in my mouth, and I don't think you know anything about Capita. EDIT: Sorry, you do acknowledge this.


Thank you for trying to downplay it by stating I use Facebook for my information.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a dick, I was tired and frustrated to see yet another lengthy rebuttal of a relatively short post I made and was annoyed that I'd have to waste my time defending it.


I would suggest you think about why Npower are closing down all their offices. They have been doing this for decades as it allows them to ditch higher paid staff for cheaper resource in developing areas.
This is a valid point, but Npower's blunders have cost them so much money they simply can't keep going as they are. You need to factor that in as well. Most companies operating call centres, which require hundreds of staff by their nature, would probably go to India or South Africa if they could get away with it - the only wonder is that more of them don't.

Npower are paying Capita around £17/hr for staff, Capita pays around £8/hr and pockets the rest. However Npower are fining Capita at least £100,000 per month some months due to Capita failing to hit targets (delivered hours, quality, compliance etc). If Npower pays its own staff, say, £9 per hour, it is theoretically costing way more to go to Capita. Why would Npower even consider this, let alone making its own staff redundant, if their own staff were considered capable? Bear in mind this is replacing UK staff with UK staff, not going abroad.

By the way, the redundancies I'm talking about are the ones from 2014, not 2016.


The staff in India were trained by the wrong people with substandard LWP's (some weren't even right) and very few of those that went to train had the knowledge or experience to do it so to be honest, it's hardly the staff's fault in India for that, it's the management.
But the management are Npower's staff, so it does come around to being the staff's fault in the end, just not the "poor bloody infantry".

[MyNameIsTerry]

With respect, and don't see this as a personal attack, whenever you respond to me you try to "dazzle" me with "facts" and "knowledge" which in nearly every case have been incorrect or not even relevant, so I didn't take you seriously this time either.

In your opinion, and your opinion doesn't seem to match with the hundreds of people in Midlands. I guess we were all wrong. :D

Adam, seriously there is little point putting "with respect" in front of a patronising response.

All we can do is agree to disagree on this one.

I think all the people working for years on the SAP implementation would disagree with you over them not being willing to put fixes in. Remember, they purchased SAP Vanilla and spent years building something bespoke. We all knew it wouldn't work, those of us connected to the project in some way we're always telling them. I'm glad Ofgem finally dealt with it.

[NoPoet]

No, you were bang wrong in the other threads and you continue to misinterpret me in this one.

I never said anything about the SAP team. Plenty of minor changes were implemented, which resulted in serious issues nearly every time and never once made SAP faster, easier or more reliable. My criticism was that Npower would not spend the money to rebuild or replace it, with replace being everyone's favourite option among those who actually had to use it.

There is a great deal of difference between building a system and having to actually use it. Systems should only be built by people who use them, or in very close consultation with those who use them. That's certainly not the case here, or if it is, what the hell were you actually doing?

[MyNameIsTerry]

Thank you for telling me I'm wrong, Adam. Regardless of your opinion, I am allowed to have mine.

Remember opinions aren't fact.

Also thank you for your last comment. Things are not as simple but hey, I wasn't responsible for it anyway so I won't be losing any sleep over your opinion of me. :unsure: Besides, I did use them for some years, like I said there were many of us involved telling them it wasn't specced correctly but if senior management won't allow people to fix anything, what can anyone do until they come out of their denial? There were a lot of fixes though, a hell of a lot before it was even turned on.

[NoPoet]

Your opinions are always welcome, but when you start contradicting facts that I provide, you'd better be loaded for bear ;)

I define facts as things that can be empirically proven through research rather than "my take" on something.

I don't have a negative opinion of you as a human being. But I struggled with SAP for two years and the software is like Skynet's dysentery. Unless you're a programmer for SAP, this is not your responsibility. But don't announce to Npower or Capita staff that you had a hand in SAP as a lot of people have very bad feelings towards the whole thing, which may include those who tried to make it work.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Adam,

I'm not discussing your facts, I know my own and that won't change so lets agree to disagree.

I think SAP is garbage, I said it all the way through the programme and like you, I was one of many. The previous systems were also poor, full of holes and missing reports that we kep finding. So you misunderstand. It could work but the programme was full of problems and like you mentioned before, a lot of people recruited to spec what they didn't understand. Then it came back into the business where issues were raised but in many cases, it was too late.

I was an employee long before SAP. Not one of the many consultants milking the gravy train regardless of anything working. I'm well aware of staff unhappiness over it all, I was one of them!

So in your last statement try to acknowledge that you are telling me not to denounce something I have involvement in. It would be hard to denounce myself and personal friends on that one.

---------- Post added 25-03-16 at 00:01 ---------- Previous post was 24-03-16 at 22:36 ----------

Anyway, I'm conscious of the extreme deviation from the topic so...

In the case of the medical practitioners, how able are they to make the assessment? There was a lot of press over this before where many were nurses earning some extra cash. I know people who went through the ESA interviewers to be told picking up a pen and putting it in your pocket or being able to cook for yourself was about all they had.

I can remember on lady saying a friends son was agreed fit for work despite having so little awareness of danger that they can't let him cross the road on his own. In a case like that, now places like Remploy are declining, what employer would take them on?

I often think it's an intentional filter to kick people off and see who re applies. The trouble is, with our disorders it can feel too much to keep fighting.

[littlebutterflygb]

I bet conflabulated wish they'd never started this thread:D