So scared, please help [Archive]

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Chrisapp

17-03-16, 08:44

At the moment I am having thoughts that are telling me that I believe in a cult, which is incredibly weird as before I had any anxiety I was a total atheist, at times I get moments of clarity where I don't feel anxious and I know I don't believe in it, but my mind keeps trying to tell me I do, no matter how hard I protest and fight, the idea of being in the cult disgusts me and their theories are utterly ridiculous with no scientific backing whatsoever, and I am very anti-religion anyway (apologies to all with any faith), but everytime I try and logic my way out of it, my mind drags me back in with a ridiculous argument, I'm worried to take my meds I was given in case I start to believe in it when I am calm.... Please help!

BrokenAge

17-03-16, 16:12

Chrisapp

17-03-16, 16:47

Here your problem Chris. You keep fighting the thoughts. Accept them as what they are, just thoughts. Think of it this way. Has anyone told you to imagine a pink elephant in your head. And then they told you to stop thinking about it. You'll keep thinking about it because the more you tell yourself "hey I need to stop thinking about it" the more your mind will dwell on it. You need to stop attacking the thoughts. Just let them come in and go out. If you fight then they'll last longer.

I know.... I just really struggle to accept them as just thoughts, it is really my worst nightmare and I worry my brain is going to make me believe in it when I drop my guard down, I am trying to accept them right now, but as soon as I do I start to panic....:weep:

Xtrastrongbint

17-03-16, 18:10

Chrisapp

17-03-16, 18:23

Hi Chris - sadly this is a common side effect of anxiety for a lot of us! Intrusive thoughts which really go against your own beliefs/morals are very common...the kind of sciency explanation is that because your anxiety is high your brain is "searching" for a threat, almost like finding something to explain your "fight or flight" response. Usually this is ego-dystonic = meaning they are the opposite of an individual’s true nature, desires, values, and self-image. What meds have you been prescribed? If it's an SSRI I guarantee once they've settled in those thoughts wont exist xx

Thanks for the reply :) it's good to know that I don't actually believe these thoughts because at the moment I am sat here terrified I do! And I hate that, I would hate that more than anything, I just want to be an ordinary guy with no religious belief but my head is telling me I believe in a nonsense racist cult with no scientific backing, even as I type these words my head tells me that I'm lying, and it bothers me beyond belief :( is it common in OCD that you are made to doubt yourself? I don't want to doubt myself...

Xtrastrongbint

17-03-16, 18:30

Yep, the brain can seriously try to f*ck with you...you don't believe it and that's your brain trying to make you doubt yourself..there are loads of techniques to help with this - just google it...have you started meds recently as this can make your anxiety worse before getting better or having any therapy?:hugs:

Chrisapp

17-03-16, 18:33

Hi Chris - sadly this is a common side effect of anxiety for a lot of us! Intrusive thoughts which really go against your own beliefs/morals are very common...the kind of sciency explanation is that because your anxiety is high your brain is "searching" for a threat, almost like finding something to explain your "fight or flight" response. Usually this is ego-dystonic = meaning they are the opposite of an individual’s true nature, desires, values, and self-image. What meds have you been prescribed? If it's an SSRI I guarantee once they've settled in those thoughts wont exist xx

Oh and I've been prescribed Mirtazapine :)

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:30 ----------

Yep, the brain can seriously try to f*ck with you...you don't believe it and that's your brain trying to make you doubt yourself..there are loads of techniques to help with this - just google it...have you started meds recently as this can make your anxiety worse before getting better or having any therapy?:hugs:

I haven't taken my meds just yet, I've been scared because I'm so scared that I'll believe these thoughts :( I'm getting an assessment and hopefully getting CBT on 4th April

Xtrastrongbint

17-03-16, 18:43

Oh Chris I feel for you x I promise once you start on your Mirt and get through the initial bit you will feel better (and I promise you won't join a cult. I won't let you -lol!)...honestly you will get through this - I know it's crappy to feel like this but it is more common than you think...I think what made me feel a bit better was knowing that most people have these weird thoughts that come and go (my best mate once told me whilst we were driving that she could just pull the car into the crash barrier and kill us both - and she laughed her head off). And that's the difference - she wasn't worried about that thought. She thought it was hilarious, however, when you have anxiety you become worried about having that thought in the first place...I promise you it will get better:hugs:

Chrisapp

17-03-16, 19:03

Xtrastrongbint

17-03-16, 19:15

Chrisapp

17-03-16, 19:18

I know...but a few weeks down the line you will wonder what you were worrying about...get some mindfulness meditation going - it's lovely and relaxing and take it step by step - you will get better :hugs:

Promise? I just don't want these thoughts, why are they here? Please tell me I don't believe them :(

Xtrastrongbint

17-03-16, 19:28

I do promise Chris - because I've been there! You don't believe them. It's anxiety and only temporary. They are there because of adrenaline, fight or flight and responses to that. Now, google some relaxation stuff and start your meds - you can do this! Seriously, check out Claire Weekes, Reneau Peurifoy on youtube, theres a million relaxation apps, find mindfulness techniques on the interweb. Try distraction - adult colouring in is helpful, mindful tasks that keep you occupied - anything to help...this is temporary..believe it x

MyNameIsTerry

18-03-16, 05:05

I agree with everything that has been said, there are some good examples and good advice in previous posts.

Chris, I'm another on here who has had intrusive thoughts and I've beaten them. They made a bit of a comeback with a new theme some time ago but I've worked out of them again. I would seriously recommend Mindfulness as this was a big success for me with intrusive thoughts. I've put some in the thread in my signature if they could be of use.

The thing about fighting is like Nick says, fighting is a negative action. You can't stop intrusive thoughts, they are experienced by all human beings as the example XSB gave you and there are studies that have proven that all people have them, they just didn't realise it until trained to spot & understand what they were.

The area of the brain that looks for feedback from the conscious mind is only looking for a negative response, especially emotion and the stronger the better. It's a process, nothing more. If you fight these thoughts and try to push them away and get upset you send a negative signal back and the subconscious says 'yep, that's a tick in the box and I did something valid'. Note the use of the word "valid", not "correct"?

Here is another thing as XLB mentioned, you have a set of very deep beliefs that guide your brain known as "Schemas" and these are linked to your identity. When the fight or flight response is working it will make checks to memory and against such beliefs that guide it and when it can't find a match, it can't do anything. At this point it is literally saying 'ok conscious brain, I don't know what to do so here is all the data, tell me what I should do'. Just see it that way.

Currently you are reacting with shock, anger at yourself, guilt, shame, anxiety, panic, etc. Subconscious brain gets it's negative response back and says 'Woohoo, I know this is valid and so I will send it again & again'. Bare in mind that memory stores associated data together, including even situational stuff, time data, etc which can cause triggering later. As time goes on, the intrusive thoughts can become more complex in terms of theme or what is associated with them as you are teaching the subconscious to make associations between these negative elements which it will store.

Remember I said the area of the brain on the lookout only looks for negative? It's called the Amygdala, you've probably come across it? There are 2, but the fear centre is the right Amygdala. So, if you change how you react and become positive/neutral, it doesn't get it's "feed" and over time, with repetition, you will starve it. This means it will send it less & less and also because you are changing your response, the subconscious will note this and change the associations or build new ones. You've probably heard of Core Beliefs. It's all about neurons being connected by synapses in the brain when it comes to learning and by changing this you teach it to change which neurons those synapses connect to. This causes old beliefs about intrusive thoughts to become mothballed and new ones to form or be reformed from old healthy beliefs that had been mothballed. It's all the same process of learning to the brain, under the neuroplasticity banner.

So, either challenge thoughts in constructive positive/neutral ways, as taught in therapy like CBT, or go the acceptance route. Acceptance comes in different forms and for me, Mindfulness worked best because it trains you through exercises to monitor yourself from a position of neutrality as the "curious observer".

Have a look at this medical professionals worksheet about the feedback issue:

http://psychology.tools/intrusive-thoughts-brain-metaphor.html

This was what Nick was saying with the pink elephant, this is just the white bear exercise:

http://psychology.tools/thought-suppression-and-intrusive-thoughts.html

Some more useful stuff:

http://psychology.tools/schema-metaphors.html
http://psychology.tools/core-belief-magnets.html
http://psychology.tools/schema-bias.html
http://psychology.tools/safety-behaviors-example.html

You won't be joining a cult. There are clear points I can see in your posts which tell me why this bothering you from my experience, from my reading and from talking to other on here. Intrusive thoughts look for maximum impact, XSB might have mentioned this earlier. After all, what would be the point of an intrusive thought about something that doesn't matter? Well, in a non anxious person that's how they work but in someone engaging the fight or flight too much, it looks for things to attach to fear to get it the feedback it wants.

You say you are non religious. Tick in a box for me. You say you are strongly against religion. Big tick in the box for me.

How about an example to show you how those ticks work as it's often easier to look outside of your own situation at someone else? Here's one of mine.

- I love my parents deeply.
- I am protective of my mother.
- I would die for them if it was needed.
- I respect my father greatly.
- I often buy them little thank you gifts if I see something, usually my mother e.g. some flowers on reduced if they are nice to brighten her kitchen up or a rose plant for the garden (her favourite).

So, what were my intrusive thoughts? I won't mentioned the compulsions as they won't add any value to the example for you.

I had two primary types.

1) I have thoughts of harm coming to my parents, perhaps more my mother than my father, and I would believe I was often wishing harm onto them.
2) I would have thoughts of committing a violent act on a stranger or someone else I knew who wasn't a loved on or friend (e.g. a boss from work) and would have further thoughts about then going to prison for life.

So, what out of my thoughts about my parents in the earlier section would apply to these 2 types of intrusive thoughts? What in there tells you I would commit such acts? I bet you are going to tell me - none.

The first thought is obvious, it's direct on them. For the second I worked it out to be a matter of bringing shame on the family and how much that would hurt them emotionally.

Now apply that to you.

I could give you plenty of examples of OCD sufferers I have spoken to since being on this forum who show the exact same patterns. How about the mother or father having violent or sexual abuse thoughts about their baby or young child and feeling sick to their core? How about someone who has coached children in a team who felt horrific about having POCD thoughts? How about the teacher who is terrified of losing her job because of her thoughts? Can you spot the strong morals towards children in those examples? I've spoken to people on here who went through that.

Remember, the conscious mind is the executive brain - it makes the decisions. Without you agreeing to joining a cult, it won't ever happen.

Chrisapp

18-03-16, 13:20

I agree with everything that has been said, there are some good examples and good advice in previous posts.

Chris, I'm another on here who has had intrusive thoughts and I've beaten them. They made a bit of a comeback with a new theme some time ago but I've worked out of them again. I would seriously recommend Mindfulness as this was a big success for me with intrusive thoughts. I've put some in the thread in my signature if they could be of use.

The thing about fighting is like Nick says, fighting is a negative action. You can't stop intrusive thoughts, they are experienced by all human beings as the example XSB gave you and there are studies that have proven that all people have them, they just didn't realise it until trained to spot & understand what they were.

The area of the brain that looks for feedback from the conscious mind is only looking for a negative response, especially emotion and the stronger the better. It's a process, nothing more. If you fight these thoughts and try to push them away and get upset you send a negative signal back and the subconscious says 'yep, that's a tick in the box and I did something valid'. Note the use of the word "valid", not "correct"?

Here is another thing as XLB mentioned, you have a set of very deep beliefs that guide your brain known as "Schemas" and these are linked to your identity. When the fight or flight response is working it will make checks to memory and against such beliefs that guide it and when it can't find a match, it can't do anything. At this point it is literally saying 'ok conscious brain, I don't know what to do so here is all the data, tell me what I should do'. Just see it that way.

Currently you are reacting with shock, anger at yourself, guilt, shame, anxiety, panic, etc. Conscious brain gets it's negative response back and says 'Woohoo, I know this is valid and so I will send it again & again'. Bare in mind that memory stores associated data together, including even situational stuff, time data, etc which can cause triggering later. As time goes on, the intrusive thoughts can become more complex in terms of theme or what is associated with them as you are teaching the subconscious to make associations between these negative elements which it will store.

Remember I said the area of the brain on the lookout only looks for negative? It's called the Amygdala, you've probably come across it? There are 2, but the fear centre is the right Amygdala. So, if you change how you react and become positive/neutral, it doesn't get it's "feed" and over time, with repetition, you will starve it. This means it will send it less & less and also because you are changing your response, the subconscious will note this and change the associations or build new ones. You've probably heard of Core Beliefs. It's all about neurons being connected by synapses in the brain when it comes to learning and by changing this you teach it to change which neurons those synapses connect to. This causes old beliefs about intrusive thoughts to become mothballed and new ones to form or be reformed from old healthy beliefs that had been mothballed. It's all the same process of learning to the brain, under the neuroplasticity banner.

So, either challenge thoughts in constructive positive/neutral ways, as taught in therapy like CBT, or go the acceptance route. Acceptance comes in different forms and for me, Mindfulness worked best because it trains you through exercises to monitor yourself from a position of neutrality as the "curious observer".

Have a look at this medical professionals worksheet about the feedback issue:

http://psychology.tools/intrusive-thoughts-brain-metaphor.html

This was what Nick was saying with the pink elephant, this is just the white bear exercise:

http://psychology.tools/thought-suppression-and-intrusive-thoughts.html

Some more useful stuff:

http://psychology.tools/schema-metaphors.html
http://psychology.tools/core-belief-magnets.html
http://psychology.tools/schema-bias.html
http://psychology.tools/safety-behaviors-example.html

You won't be joining a cult. There are clear points I can see in your posts which tell me why this bothering you from my experience, from my reading and from talking to other on here. Intrusive thoughts look for maximum impact, XSB might have mentioned this earlier. After all, what would be the point of an intrusive thought about something that doesn't matter? Well, in a non anxious person that's how they work but in someone engaging the fight or flight too much, it looks for things to attach to fear to get it the feedback it wants.

You say you are non religious. Tick in a box for me. You say you are strongly against religion. Big tick in the box for me.

How about an example to show you how those ticks work as it's often easier to look outside of your own situation at someone else? Here's one of mine.

- I love my parents deeply.
- I am protective of my mother.
- I would die for them if it was needed.
- I respect my father greatly.
- I often buy them little thank you gifts if I see something, usually my mother e.g. some flowers on reduced if they are nice to brighten her kitchen up or a rose plant for the garden (her favourite).

So, what were my intrusive thoughts? I won't mentioned the compulsions as they won't add any value to the example for you.

I had two primary types.

1) I have thoughts of harm coming to my parents, perhaps more my mother than my father, and I would believe I was often wishing harm onto them.
2) I would have thoughts of committing a violent act on a stranger or someone else I knew who wasn't a loved on or friend (e.g. a boss from work) and would have further thoughts about then going to prison for life.

So, what out of my thoughts about my parents in the earlier section would apply to these 2 types of intrusive thoughts? What in there tells you I would commit such acts? I bet you are going to tell me - none.

The first thought is obvious, it's direct on them. For the second I worked it out to be a matter of bringing shame on the family and how much that would hurt them emotionally.

Now apply that to you.

I could give you plenty of examples of OCD sufferers I have spoken to since being on this forum who show the exact same patterns. How about the mother or father having violent or sexual abuse thoughts about their baby or young child and feeling sick to their core? How about someone who has coached children in a team who felt horrific about having POCD thoughts? How about the teacher who is terrified of losing her job because of her thoughts? Can you spot the strong morals towards children in those examples? I've spoken to people on here who went through that.

Remember, the conscious mind is the executive brain - it makes the decisions. Without you agreeing to joining a cult, it won't ever happen.

Thank you for the informative post Terry, I am in a painful merrygoround at the moment, I managed to look at my thoughts without feeling anxious for a while and deemed this to be a sign that I actually believe the thoughts, now I am anxious that I believe them. I am arguing with myself at the moment as I KNOW I don't believe in God, but my mind keeps telling me I do and that evolution isn't real, which Makes me question what I actually believe. For some reason my anxiety isn't as strong at the moment which makes me think it isn't OCD.... But at the same time I'm going through all usual compulsions against it (shouting No in my head, arguing with myself, avoiding pictures of things on the Internet), so this means it must be OCD right?

MyNameIsTerry

18-03-16, 13:45

The term used in the OCD community for an intrusive thought that doesn't generate anxiety which then causes then to become anxious about not being anxious is called "backdoor spike". I've had them too.

As mine progressed I even had feelings of "liking" and this can make people panic because they think they are changing into what they fear. They aren't. I've seen a pattern to this with some on here where they start off panicking from theintrusive thought, to a lack or anxiety or even apathy and then onto "liking". The latter two caused anxiety from them panicking over what the change signified.

I think over time it becomes more complex and muddled so this can happen although that doesn't mean it will be the same for everyone. But if this does happen, remember we've had it too and that includes those of us who are over our intrusive thoughts.

So, yes it's OCD, nothing more sinister.

To be honest as I was getting rid of mine I saw my reactions change anyway and it wasn't just that the anxiety faded, I had times where I felt amused and smiled or laughed and at the same time I was thinking automatically how ludicrous the thought was and if passed quickly. I knew at that point that I passed a really big milestone with them. Remember XSB said her friend laughed them off? I knew I had beaten them then and I felt some feelings of happiness at that point and when you consider Dopamine is the reward system in the brain, that was probably a little bit of that being released because it had been triggered by that feeling of achievement.

It sounds like you've got some solipsism going on in there too and that's another known theme in OCD. A lot of my OCD combined so don't worry if you have overlaps and combinations of themes.

Avoidance will reinforce it. So will compulsions which are obviously mental compulsions in your case. If you stop the compulsion it will be hard sort term but long term will help you break the cycle as that compulsion is a feedback too and has a similar function to the negative mentioned above, the subconscious will just been seeing it as needed in the process.

I found I broke that chain with some of my compulsions to then fine myself doing them without any anxiety. From speaking to another guy on here who was further ahead in recovery than me, who had also seen this, we agreed it was like we were dismantling the cycle and some remnants needed a bit of extra work. Many of my compulsions though, I just stopped or flipped my thinking to making it my choice and these all worked for me in different ways.