View Full Version : cbt massive waste of time AVOID!
So here i am on a friday night, feeling super anxious and worrying about different things all week
from ``is my manager at work angry at me``
to ``a person said i look older than i am - shock horror, this is awful, its the end of the world``
these kind of stupid nagging thoughts are driving me crazy all day now, despite me having finished an entire cbt course
im actually worse off than before
i hate cbt all its done is cost me the four pounds or so bus pass i used every week for 3 months to go to the session
my anxiety, and ocd worrying (usually needless rubbish like ive said above, is almost at an all time high), i just dont know what to do :(
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:weep:
CArl_34_m_UK
13-05-16, 21:45
I've had cbt amd it was rubbish. Therapists don't try to help you with your thought processes. I got told to try colouring books and I was freaking out and scared about being alive\existing.
I've had cbt amd it was rubbish. Therapists don't try to help you with your thought processes. I got told to try colouring books and I was freaking out and scared about being alive\existing.
i know, kept asking me stupid questions such as ``so how do you think we can approach dealing with this``
when IF I KNEW THE ANSWERS I WOULDNT BE THERE!!
Im having CBT too.
This week my therapist wants me to hyperventilate on purpose for homework to induce a panic attack.:weep:
I think she's crazier than me! :blush:
Ive tried to tell her that I will not overcome my problems that Ive had for 9 years in 6 sessions.:lac:
People that dont suffer really do not know what its like.
x
While it's not for everyone, "you get out of it what you put into it" still applies as it does with anything we do in life. I hope you find some peace.
Positive thoughts
---------- Post added at 16:58 ---------- Previous post was at 16:51 ----------
Ive tried to tell her that I will not overcome my problems that Ive had for 9 years in 6 sessions.:lac:
'Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.'
Henry Ford
I used the techniques to help with some depression and "scanxiety". You have to work at it. It's not a quick fix nor can any therapist give you the "answers". It's about learning to change the way "you" think about things and it takes time, effort and practice. It's no different than practicing an instrument. You have to go over it time and time again before it becomes second nature. And if you stop, you stand to lose the progress you've made.
I understand you're not felt like you were helped but to say "AVOID" frankly is irresponsible and very negative message to send to others who may benefit.
Positive thoughts
I'm having CBT and it's fantastic. You have to put the work in otherwise you are just wasting your time and your therapists time too.
Hi
I've been having CBT for the last couple of years and have not seen much improvement. It all makes perfect sense but I just don't seem to be able to apply it. I've heard it has been so helpful for others.
It's such a struggle, meds don't seem to help me much either.
I understand your frustration.
MyNameIsTerry
13-05-16, 22:58
I think we all need to start looking at it from a different angle - IAPT CBT is NOT CBT in it's intended form and even the main association for psychologists in the UK made that criticism.
CBT can help BUT I believe there is a massive difference between CBT and IAPT CBT from my own experience, reading and talking to others who had much better CBT that made mine look like some self help sessions.
And no, 6 sessions will never address all but mildest of disorders. They can't deliver CBT in that short time frame and in fact, the Level 2 services are about 5 sessions. NICE have criteria for CBT and it's more than 6 sessions as a minimum if you read their various guidelines. IAPT ates supposed to work to those guidelines but I can't see that they are anymore.
I've had two sessions of cbt so far and in the second session my therapist asked me the same questions regarding my childhood as she did in my first session, so it was just a repeat of the first session! I think she just didn't write my answers down the previous season.
Also, I said to her that I think I need to be in a pysch ward and all she said was "hmm" !
MyNameIsTerry
14-05-16, 04:42
I've had two sessions of cbt so far and in the second session my therapist asked me the same questions regarding my childhood as she did in my first session, so it was just a repeat of the first session! I think she just didn't write my answers down the previous season.
Also, I said to her that I think I need to be in a pysch ward and all she said was "hmm" !
The first few of mine were more information gathering. They don't need to know much about childhood at all for CBT as it doesn't seek to address any of that, only have an understanding of what may have contributed to your thinking now. For instance, mine asked about any drug use, whether I had a happy upbringing and are there any mental health issues in family history...and that was about it. Literally 5 minutes of sessions 1.
I'm having CBT and it's fantastic. You have to put the work in otherwise you are just wasting your time and your therapists time too.
erm, are you saying i am wasting the therapists time if i dont feel it was useful?
i did all the ``homework`` that they gave me, and put into practise everything i was told , between the sessions and did so for 3 months
you telling me i am ``wasting the therapist`s time``? :scared15: :scared15:
I tried it for one visit and that was enough to realise it wasn't going to work.
I found that the only one one that can cure you is YOU.
I don't know how your system works over there, any chance you could see a different person or try out a different type of therapy? It may well just be that the person you saw wasn't any good.
I only did online CBT in conjunction with talking therapy. My therapist admitted flat out that CBT was helpful but did take quite a bit of work and wouldn't work for all situations. For situations where there is a clear "answer" or I can be more logical, it works beautifully. For example, I noticed I had some red marks on my hand. Freaked out. I'm very sensitive to redness/bumps showing up anywhere. Took a step back and tried to work out what it could be instead...remembered that I'd been playing with my dog earlier and he'd mouthed my hand. Instant relief. In the past, I'd have spiraled out and not been able to reach the more accurate conclusion.
However, there are certain topics where there just IS no clear answer and/or I will feel very frustrated or sad or otherwise emotional and CBT can't touch that. My therapist tried to help me find other coping skills - such as doing a puzzle to keep my mind busy or going for a run to get some energy out. Sometimes it is helpful, sometimes not.
I think there's major trial and error here unfortunately.
I've tried cbt in 2013 & 2015. I totally agree complete and utter waste of time for me:doh::doh::doh::doh:
I've tried cbt in 2013 & 2015. I totally agree complete and utter waste of time for me:doh::doh::doh::doh:
It's like hypnotism.
If you don't have the right sort of "receptive" mind it won't work.
I was turned down for cbt four years ago because my mental state was to bad I've self refered for it again as it's the only help available pretty much my last hope before the funny farm , been waiting three months now , self refered the same time as I joined this forum while sitting down a river bank thinking what's the point can't carry on the way I am , when they do get round to seeing me is it realy going to be such a disappointment , surely the nhs has somthing to offer , bit disheartening to read the negative comments on it .
MyNameIsTerry
16-05-16, 07:54
The way I approach this now is to take what you can from it, however small it may be. I found I couldn't engage with it but was quite bad back then but after I finished I had seem some gains and started working on the things I couldn't get past in the CBT.
I think a second round can be useful but they won't do it in my area.
I would recommend getting a CBT resource like a book alongside CBT as it will show you all the things you may be missing. IAPT is a stripped down CBT, even the professionals have raised that concern.
---------- Post added at 07:54 ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 ----------
I don't know how your system works over there, any chance you could see a different person or try out a different type of therapy? It may well just be that the person you saw wasn't any good.
However, there are certain topics where there just IS no clear answer and/or I will feel very frustrated or sad or otherwise emotional and CBT can't touch that. My therapist tried to help me find other coping skills - such as doing a puzzle to keep my mind busy or going for a run to get some energy out. Sometimes it is helpful, sometimes not.
Not over here, Poppy. England & Wales have an IAPT service and all they offer for anxiety is CBT. There are other forms of psychotherapy available but you have to get beyond these people into the traditional CMHT's to access a psychologist. They tend to have long waiting lists (mine is over a year minimum). Scotland is a different NHS so they just have the old system of the CMHT's which explains to me why they have better quality CBT from talking to another member on here who got taught far more than I ever did.
It's a drawback of having a NHS - you get what you're given. We have little say unless we fancy taking on "the system".
There are forms of 3rd wave CBT that can work with emotions such as DBT which was created to treat Personality Disorders and is more effective in them than traditional CBT. That teaches working with emotions. Then there are other 3rd wave forms like ACT that could be helpful too.
Hi
We have such a long wait here for DBT, and suicide attempts get first priority.
Self referral for IAPT CBT just means that the system is overwhelmed and people in genuine need just have to join the queue before they are weeded out. I absolutely loathe the questionnaires that are part and parcel of this offering. Totting up scores appears to be more important than face to face assessment/ competent and appropriate questioning in order to reach a considered diagnosis/plan of action.
IAPT CBT just seems to me to be an attempt at a quick fix no matter what the history. I'm sure it's perfectly adequate for some people but it barely skims the surface for others imo hence the disillusion and disappointment.
MyNameIsTerry
16-05-16, 11:16
That's how I see IAPT, a funnel aiming to weed out the mild cases. Sadly, this means everyone goes through it unless they have been suicidal or harming themselves in which case they can make it straight to the correct service in the CMHT's.
If you go into A&E, you face triage. They don't put the heart attacks in the queue behind the kid with the saucepan on his head! In mental health - they do! :doh:
Mine even told me I couldn't have the CBT I was referred to because I had to advance through the levels yet told me the first level would not be appropriate for my issues! :doh: So, 3 months wasted and a fight then because they put me in the back of the queue because you drop out of the queue once you are allocated to a service...another NHS figure massaging trick.
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Hi
We have such a long wait here for DBT, and suicide attempts get first priority.
The sad thing is over here, you could be in & out of psych wards and still be in a queue or even fighting for any treatment. Some on here have been through that dance.
There was a really sad depression case a few miles away from where I live which was just over the boarder into a different local trust/CCG area. He had battled on his own for 6 months and his wife took him to his GP because he was getting worse. His GP referred him to one of these services so he felt he was actually getting some help. They assessed him and told him he had to wait 3 months. Sadly, this was too much for him and he walked in front of a train a few days later. The mental health service said he wasn't suicidal and saw him as low risk due to his scores but the coroner ruled they hadn't done enough.
What will change? Nothing. This is the NHS. It's like fighting the government for change. "Lessons learnt" which just means nothing changes.
Not too many miles into another trust region from me there is a psych hospital that has been in the local news a few times over patients leaving (despite being sectioned) a secure centre and being found wandering along busy roads or on bridges by the police and they hadn't even been reported missing. Welcome to the NHS, the jewel in the crown. :doh:
The trouble is that loads of people think they have a mental health issue these days when they are just experiencing life's ups and downs. The system gets flooded and the genuine get downgraded behind the attention-seekers.
I think this week is Mental Health Awareness Week and I don't think this does any of us any favours because for all the "parity of esteem" nothing changes and it won't do because mental health is just too complex and people in genuine distress will just be lumped in with those who think they are due to all the media exposure of mild cases.
MyNameIsTerry
16-05-16, 13:28
It gets worse from a professional point of view too when you consider how the US people with their diagnostic manual in it's most recent form had been criticised for that very issue. One example was how grief would be considered a mental health disorder. That's normal grief that we will all go through at some point in normal life, not something turning into Adjustment Disorders and depression.
We don't officially use that manual over here but looking at the OCD charities alone I can see they take their steer from that manual for certain disorders to connect them to OCD.
Sadly we do live in the "OMG" generation where everything is over the top. Celebrities make up the biggest root cause for misclaiming of mental health disorders in my opinion and so others see themselves as the same.
bit disheartening to read the negative comments on it .
Don't be discouraged. CBT and the variations aren't for everyone, that much is true. As Phill2 said, you have to have the right mindset for it to be effective. It also takes practice and commitment. He's also right in that the only person that can heal you is you.
The same thing is true for psychotherapy IMO. My personal experience with both was very positive. I found both effective in opening my mind to the right paths to overcome my depression and "scanxiety". They aren't answers to your problems but they are suggestions in overcoming them.
I did the CBT4PANIC that was offered here along with one on one therapy. My therapist was 100% for it. I found the CBT to just make sense. Some of it didn't apply to me but I found much that did and it helped and still does. In fact there are some techniques I have found beneficial in dealing with everyday life stresses. Not everyone can benefit and unfortunately, sometimes, one's illness is so severe that they can't see the forest for the trees or their mindset just isn't in a place to absorb it. That's why I believe meds are sometimes needed to help cut through the underbrush so to speak, so that one can effectively employ the techniques without the interference and mind chatter.
There are many here who have successfully overcome their anxiety and are healing. Read the Success Stories thread. I also know for a fact that many who have achieved success with CBT and therapy have moved on from the forum. There's a FB page with former members that's dedicated toward healing and I stay in touch with several former members that are doing great now.
So again, don't be discouraged. While you're waiting, look into one of the many free CBT workbooks/courses available and work on some of the techniques. There are plenty of free worksheets (like a thought record)and text to read. As Phill2 said, it's up to "you".
Positive thoughts
Beckybecks
16-05-16, 14:22
I did an online CBT course so I had almost no contact with my therapist, just a weekly email.
However, I found the exercises really helped me.
I had to make a lot of effort but what I liked was that it made my mind really think about my condition and each situation.
I liked it that I felt I was in control as opposed to taking medication to mask the symptoms.
It's all about removing the old bad habits we have learnt and replacing them with new healthy ones.
---------- Post added at 14:22 ---------- Previous post was at 14:21 ----------
Worth while putting in a bit of effort.
I was turned down for cbt four years ago because my mental state was to bad I've self refered for it again as it's the only help available pretty much my last hope before the funny farm , been waiting three months now , self refered the same time as I joined this forum while sitting down a river bank thinking what's the point can't carry on the way I am , when they do get round to seeing me is it realy going to be such a disappointment , surely the nhs has somthing to offer , bit disheartening to read the negative comments on it .
It's a joke I self referred two weeks ago just to see what's available other than cbt and what would've been nice is to get a reply saying it was received:doh::doh: but no that would be far to efficient!
almamatters
16-05-16, 18:18
I'm on my third session of CBT , I had a course 8 years ago . I'm not sure if it's helping or not. I'm doing the exercises and filling the diary in at home but can't see any changes so far. My therapist is nice and i feel I can open upto him but I was referred for health anxiety and my GAD is more of a problem at the moment , so I feel I'm confusing my therapist with switching from worry to worry. I don't see any other options for me but to stick with it , seeing as I won't take medication at the moment.
MyNameIsTerry
16-05-16, 22:53
It's a joke I self referred two weeks ago just to see what's available other than cbt and what would've been nice is to get a reply saying it was received:doh::doh: but no that would be far to efficient!
IAPT only offer a short list of therapies. It will tell you on the IAPT site which toy can access and the local providers site will explain anything they offer.
There is a newer therapy offered for depression but for anxiety we can expect CBT.
NICE guidelines for GAD state CBT or Applied Relaxation but I've never heard of anyone on here even hearing about the latter and IAPT providers seem to make no mention of it.
Goodness, Terry, I'm so sorry that you all seem to be so stuck in regards to options on your side of the pond. Is it like that with all health care, or just mental health care?
I'm just thankful to still be on my parent's insurance and hope to find a good plan of my own when I start working...so I have a few more options, based on what's available locally.
I have no idea what people here who don't have private insurance and have to go through Medicaid have to do. I know in my state we have a massive budget deficit (thanks, Brownback) so they are trying to make it so that with ALL health issues for people on Medicaid doctors have to try the cheapest options first before moving onto the next best thing. Mental health advocates are of course against it, as the "cheapest" options often do jack squat for many.
Sad that with so much "awareness" so many are losing out.
I do agree that sometimes there are people out there just looking for attention, but how to know? Everyone experiences these things differently. I've been told I have depression by my GP and my psychiatrist, and I even took "self assessment" quizzes that told me I have severe depression but honestly? Despite the crap way I feel and the massive breakdowns I have, I still feel like I should be able to just brush it all off and move on.
You know, it's a catch 22 with diagnosing here in the USA just to jump off what you said, Terry. A lot of things get categorized in the DSM V, which does make "normal emotions/reactions" look like something diagnosable. I don't always agree and think we over diagnose. However we NEED a diagnosis - and a certain level of diagnosis - to have insurance pay for the service being provided. So say somebody wants to talk to a therapist about grief issues - which is a normal part of life but could use support from a professional - we need to diagnose that person with SOMETHING so that insurance will cover it.
It's a flawed system and is frustrating.
Despite the "system" it still comes down to being your own self advocate and seeking help and methods to help yourself. Therapy and meds are tools but it still comes down to you.
There are CBT courses on line. There are books you can read and you can at least make an effort or you can be complacent and continue to suffer. One step forward and two back is better than no step forward.
Positive thoughts
MyNameIsTerry
17-05-16, 02:46
It's not necessarily about complacency. Remember our own psychologists over here have made the same criticisms about IAPT and this is why we have to be careful on this issue because we are not all talking about the same therapy. CBT is different to IAPT CBT and so is the training of the person delivering it.
Whilst it's true that the work had to come from us, if the therapist is training you in the tools & techniques to even do CBT then the fault lies very much with the therapist, of governance of them, and the patient suffers.
The OP has had an experience like many of us. I didn't want my therapist to tell me how to resolve the situations causing my anxiety disorder initially, I was in a role where I was trained to already implement such changes but fighting a culture issue. I needed help with the anxiety itself.
I learnt more CBT when I joined a charity. It was a springboard to more knowledge. I can easily look back and review my therapy due to this and say what I learnt of true CBT could have been delivered in 1-2 seasons.
I don't discourage people from going through it but I believe in taking a reasonable view of what you may get. There are realities in play here in the NHS.
Our systems differ. If a service is failing, that's NOT the fault of the patient.
MyNameIsTerry
17-05-16, 11:11
You know, it's a catch 22 with diagnosing here in the USA just to jump off what you said, Terry. A lot of things get categorized in the DSM V, which does make "normal emotions/reactions" look like something diagnosable. I don't always agree and think we over diagnose. However we NEED a diagnosis - and a certain level of diagnosis - to have insurance pay for the service being provided. So say somebody wants to talk to a therapist about grief issues - which is a normal part of life but could use support from a professional - we need to diagnose that person with SOMETHING so that insurance will cover it.
It's a flawed system and is frustrating.
I see what you mean. It does seem frustrating that rather than correct the flaw in insurance, they open the flood gates to labelling people over normal life experiences just because they visit a doctor about it.
The DSM is still referred to over here, it's just that the ICD is the official manual for us. This alone is very confusing when these manuals have differences in naming of disorders, categorisation and even the criteria for some. Even the doctors get them mixed up e.g. BPD is EUPD over here but BPD seems to get used a lot and this causes people to struggle finding information until they realise this.
---------- Post added at 11:11 ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 ----------
Goodness, Terry, I'm so sorry that you all seem to be so stuck in regards to options on your side of the pond. Is it like that with all health care, or just mental health care?
I'm just thankful to still be on my parent's insurance and hope to find a good plan of my own when I start working...so I have a few more options, based on what's available locally.
I have no idea what people here who don't have private insurance and have to go through Medicaid have to do. I know in my state we have a massive budget deficit (thanks, Brownback) so they are trying to make it so that with ALL health issues for people on Medicaid doctors have to try the cheapest options first before moving onto the next best thing. Mental health advocates are of course against it, as the "cheapest" options often do jack squat for many.
Sad that with so much "awareness" so many are losing out.
I do agree that sometimes there are people out there just looking for attention, but how to know? Everyone experiences these things differently. I've been told I have depression by my GP and my psychiatrist, and I even took "self assessment" quizzes that told me I have severe depression but honestly? Despite the crap way I feel and the massive breakdowns I have, I still feel like I should be able to just brush it all off and move on.
In all, Poppy. You get what you're given as we have little control other than complaints and that's not easy. The old attitude was not to involve the patient and make the decisions for them and so that is going to take some decades to shrug off. Mental health lags way behind since the NHS was always set up for physical health in history.
The cheapest options are how our NHS certainly work.
I think ricardo put it best when he said they were excellent for when you had an emergency, so you get into A&E or a similar dept and also for something life threatening (they are top notch for cancer treatment, for instance) but when it is something chronic then the standards slip. There is a massive difference in standards between emergency wards and general wards.
Anyone with a lot of money over here will go private, just as they do for their kids education.
It's not all bad, they are there when we need them and they are free. The downsides come with that and so does the lack of service unless we are willing to pay more in our taxes...which always goes down like a lead balloon with the masses.
I've read all the posts on cbt and like most things if you have a bad experience like anything in life you are going to slate it , I'm in a pretty bad place right now so I haven't got a lot to lose if they ever do get back to me I will be giving it a try worst case I get to talk to somone face to face which is more than I have right now , the nhs really need to put somthing in the gap between the crisis team which are bit useless , being sectioned and cbt there is a big void which a few of my freinds have fallen in literally and not come out , think I might give them a ring and a nudge see where I am in the que , cheers all
Therapy depends greatly on the skill, motivation, intelligence and experience of the psychotherapist (I'm assuming, of course, your therapist is qualified up the wazoo and not just some junior doctor or medical student).
Private therapy, which can be expensive, is in my experience greatly superior to the limited free stuff some people occasionally manage to get on the NHS. The NHS has such long waiting lists that your problems can significantly worsen (as you develop bad thinking habits) and its staff just don't seem skilled or knowledgeable enough.
It also depends on the willingness of the person to use what they learn in therapy. This requires a lot of work in their own time, not just in the therapy room, and can require additional support from friends, family, even the Samaritans, since therapy can kick up a lot of crap (a necessary evil).
A talented, motivated and intelligent therapist can make outstanding contributions to your recovery.
CBT is worthwhile. I have been attending therapy for years, frequency goes with needs. It is not a pill, as others said it requires work. I meditate, practice and I have even tried some hypnosis. I force myself to the treadmill, I force myself out for walks, it's all part of feeling better for me. This has all come through my therapy. It is not a cure but my personal investment combined with meds helps. I would love six sessions, a couple of pills and a few sessions to cure me - but I don't have a stomach ache I have anxiety disorders. Go at it with an open mind and give it chance, if you can find a therapist you connect with as that helps a ton.
MyNameIsTerry
19-05-16, 08:03
I've read all the posts on cbt and like most things if you have a bad experience like anything in life you are going to slate it , I'm in a pretty bad place right now so I haven't got a lot to lose if they ever do get back to me I will be giving it a try worst case I get to talk to somone face to face which is more than I have right now , the nhs really need to put somthing in the gap between the crisis team which are bit useless , being sectioned and cbt there is a big void which a few of my freinds have fallen in literally and not come out , think I might give them a ring and a nudge see where I am in the que , cheers all
I think that's the right attitude to take, Buster. When I was referred by my GP to be told he couldn't do that and I had to pass through Guided Self Help first I thought some help is better than none.
I think if I was in a support group, or on here, back then it would have done more for me as I would have people to talk to about it all. Rather than my 20 mins on the phone and then being left alone.
In my area there is local charity who run free CBT based courses. Services like this are stepping in to help us.
I think with the NHS it's a lottery as to how long you have to wait and as to how experienced, knowledgeable your allocated therapist is. Private therapy is easily accessible but incredibly expensive and of course there are no guarantees as to how successful therapy will be despite the financial outlay..
I have always been advised by GPs that private care is vastly superior to anything the NHS can offer but as everyone says, it's all about having the "right" therapist for you which can be frustrating if you get allocated someone you know is just regurgitating text books.
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