View Full Version : you wont beat anxiety without meds
hi hope all is ok
id just like to put my thoughts in on something ive only ever been diagnosed with Panic/anxiety no other probs all blood work fine and all other tests seem ok
5 years ago i was a fearless 6 foot 25 year old this last year i couldnt i go shopping without sweating and grinding my teeth off but i had no external worries? i own a nice boat etc so to have people say i thought you was happy youve got no worries really pissed me off
also i had HA and its endless symptoms which basically feeds itself..
anyway since starting sertraline 3 weeks ago ive rode out the one symptom in one out
and yesterday i went and did normal stuff i went shopping and took the kid to the park....... with a normal breathing pattern lol ive also achieved other stuff....
ive noticed a trend that on here we dwell on the fact we may have had a headache for an hour and felt sick a possible side eff SO INSTANTLY THE MEDS ARENT WORKING LMAO i am 100% guilty of this, i dwell on the 1 hour i was panicky but 5 weeks ago i was all day panicky "dont forget that ohwell i have to remind myself"
so im afriad depending on your circumstances that it really is a chemical imbalance i have to now believe this with my own eyes
tk care dont try and beat it alone you wont which is why people still scour forums years later
also moderate your alcohol intake for the time being theres seems to be a lot of people on forums and NMP that despise alcohol at the mere mention of it and i dont believe them for one second every bloke/woman i know polishes off a bottle of wine/ x pints a few times a week,
ohwell xx
It's great the meds are working for you buddy. Although I must say you seem a bit misguided about people not being able to beat anxiety without medication. For some people anti depressants are a life saver, I know at least 2 or 3 people personally who have benefitted greatly from them, but in my circumstances and I'm sure in a lot of other people's they have made the situation worse. I was coping (just about) without medication and my doctor and I decided that anti depressants might be worth a go. It was the worst mistake of my life, within 3 or 4 days I was having multiple panic attacks every day even with 40mg propranolol, I was more stressed and anxious than I've ever been in my life before and I'm still feeling the mental toll that these meds caused nearly 4 months later. That's not to say they work because for some they really do, but for others they keep you down in a place you've maybe never been before.
As I said it's really good they're working for you but every individual is different surely?
---------- Post added at 19:36 ---------- Previous post was at 19:32 ----------
And as far as alcohol goes you seem to be tarring everyone with the same brush again. I've not drunk a drop of alcohol since I was 18 and now I'm 36 and I've had anxiety and depression problems for the last 6 or 7 years. Alcohol has literally nothing to do with anything.
I'm pleased you're feeling better but I completely disagree with the thread title.
Hi , I guess you will get a few who don't agree with the title of the thread I'm also one of the unlucky ones who tried meds with disastrous results I took anti depressants because I wasn't sleeping on the doctors advice within two weeks if had a complete breakdown and was hallucinating through no sleep at all it opened a can of worms I doubt I will ever get the lid back on , we are all completely different some get better on their own , some react well to therapy and some do well on meds , I wasn't warned of how bad things could get , it's great you are reacting well to them but to say no one will get better without them could take away somones hope if they are in a position like me were I would never take them again , I used to drink a hell of a lot every week until I tried meds and haven been drunk since the effect it has now is not a pleasant one , I wish you well with your recovery as I wouldn't wish this illness on any one .
I think it is important to recognise here - from those who have mentioned bad experiences when taking meds - is that what you may well have been experiencing was not a negative experience from taking meds, but the STARTING side effects from taking meds, so in other words, the meds starting to do what they are designed to do, which is treat mental health disorders. A heightening of symptoms are classic side effects. They are also (unfortunately) a stage you have to go through in order to reach the point of feeling better. They often take WEEKS to fully settle things down.
I have yet to encounter anyone who has NOT had side effects at the initial stages of taking meds. This doesn't mean that meds are not 'all that'.....just felt that needed saying, as meds get a bad rep as doing more harm than good.
Meds are a subjectve thing all round. What particular named drug works for one, may not work for another. What may be an effective dose for one person, may not be for another. There is no right or wrong drug, no right or wrong dose. The proof is in the pudding, and how the sufferer feels and benefits LONG TERM.
The key words are 'LONG TERM'. Meds are never a quick fix or an easy option. Often they are trial and error, until you find the right drug at the right dosage.
They are also not something you need to be tied to for life. Some lucky folk find they are able to take them short term, and then wean off.
I am inclined to agree with ohwell here, purely from a personal point of view and my own experiences.
I have been anxious since childhood. In retrospect, I can see what a nervous, whacky child I was. I then had depression during my teens very badly, to the point that my parents wanted me to see an adolescent psych, but I refused point blank. I was frankly a bag of nerves about anything and everything, couldn't handle stress well, and this culminated in depression/GAD/panic attacks and a breakdown in my early 30s.
Only when I started having therapy and started meds did I realise just how screwed up I was before, and I saw how the therapy, but particularly the meds, really helped me. They were hell to start with, but as time went on, I saw my symptoms improve.
Since then I have tried twice to come off of meds, but each time my anxiety and panic returns. Frankly, meds help me live a relatively normal life now.
I agree with the OP primarily you might say because meds have helped me, and the fact that I have tried all of the talking, the breathing techniques, the mental affirmations, the exercise, the relaxation methods, the 'floating above it' nonsense and suchlike during the times without meds, none of which have helped me rid myself of the hell that is depression and anxiety.
Each to their own. I take my hat off to anyone who can fight mental health conditions without meds.
I have to disagree with the title too. I haven't taken Any meds for my anxiety and it has gotten a lot better since I've made some changes in my life. Medication is an option for some people and if it works then that's great. But they aren't a necessity to beat anxiety.
I think my 25 year old daughter would be very distressed if she were to read this thread. She is on the autistic spectrum and also has a diagnosis of OCD and severe anxiety. She is unable to take meds due to life-threatening complications from a wide range of them.
BUT there is hope for her and she is currently having ACT therapy from a specialised psychologist. She may not "beat" her anxiety but she'll hopefully learn to manage it in time ...without meds
I was on cit for about 4 years and came off last year,not felt great since and was prescribed sert but havent gone on them yet as want to be med free. Trouble is I have heard that long term use can cause permanent damage ,is this true or just more anxieties as would probably go back on if I knew it was safe.
thanks debs for explaining to people a little better
i was put on citalopram 5 years ago for intrusive thoughts and urges i remember them getting worse before they got better and i seriousy doubt 4 days of citalopram has caused months of mental toll as you believe?, perhaps thats your own mental health fluctuating/deteriorating?
buster 70 im a little confused you say tried meds but at the same time drank like a fish on the weekend? and had disastrous results so are never trying meds again?
the reason i mention alcohol is because it is like putting a fire out with 5 litres of nitrous oxide to anxiety sufferers, and people on forums seem to be in denial no one ever admits they like a tipple, i did 5 pints a night minimum i still will when im better but not at mo...
pulisa im sorry your daughters not well but shes obviously a different case if she gets life threatening problems etc
what im saying is everyone when im a strapping 6 foot 2 lad and im suddenly scared of stupid things!! plus utterly convinced im going to drop dead when with my young daughter, so much so all my breathing pattern changes host of symptoms overwhelm me fuelling the feeling and dont forget usually NEW symptoms haha you couldnt make it up ...something is clearly wrong
MyNameIsTerry
19-07-16, 11:32
I was on cit for about 4 years and came off last year,not felt great since and was prescribed sert but havent gone on them yet as want to be med free. Trouble is I have heard that long term use can cause permanent damage ,is this true or just more anxieties as would probably go back on if I knew it was safe.
Where have you heard that though?
I could show you sites stating very alarming things...and it's BS, and often alongside someone selling something like a natural supplement. I could show you gurus who are well known stating CBT has never helped anyone...yet there are tons of clinical studies showing the opposite.
If you are getting this from fellow sufferers, it will be highly unreliable.
ankietyjoe
19-07-16, 11:34
I don't think your size has anything to do with it, no matter how many times you mention it.
Neither does your boat.
Your arrogance might though. I used to be arrogant until life kicked my ass.
Where have you heard that though?
I could show you sites stating very alarming things...and it's BS, and often alongside someone selling something like a natural supplement. I could show you gurus who are well known stating CBT has never helped anyone...yet there are tons of clinical studies showing the opposite.
If you are getting this from fellow sufferers, it will be highly unreliable.
Hi thanks so there is no factual evidence of long term damage , I went on site about surviving anti depressants and it was very alarming.
MyNameIsTerry
19-07-16, 11:55
I think it is important to recognise here - from those who have mentioned bad experiences when taking meds - is that what you may well have been experiencing was not a negative experience from taking meds, but the STARTING side effects from taking meds, so in other words, the meds starting to do what they are designed to do, which is treat mental health disorders. A heightening of symptoms are classic side effects. They are also (unfortunately) a stage you have to go through in order to reach the point of feeling better. They often take WEEKS to fully settle things down.
When I went onto the Norepinephrine dose of my current med it hit me the next morning. The worst of it was over in 10 days, the worst anxiety I've ever experienced by far.
Several years later and I still had the side effects that should have gone early on. It also caused mood swings that were only finally balanced by Omega 3. The full blown OCD, something I didn't even have, came our of those initial 10 days and got worse. I spent several years working in that to stop my intrusive thoughts and my compulsions, certain obsessions are still WIP.
Cit was a different experience to this but Duloxetine was a nightmare from the start. I know others with this experience, full blown OCD out of nowhere, who have had to remove the med and still work on intrusive thoughts they never had before. It can be that the anxiety is made detrimentally worse hence remaining so even after withdrawal.
I regard my experience of Duloxetine as negative. The year after starting was far worse than the one before where I had actually relapsed. But I know others who have been fine with it hence I'm open minded when discussing any med but I do disagree on the point that it's the sufferer's anxiety and not the med, my experience differs to this and whilst I was naive back then, I'm not now but I perhaps have the benefit (and loss) of spending longer on a med making things worse than some?
---------- Post added at 11:55 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------
Hi thanks so there is no factual evidence of long term damage , I went on site about surviving anti depressants and it was very alarming.
Did you see any quoted medical studies to show this? If the answer is no, it could just be user stories.
Long term perhaps the medical profession don't fully know themselves? I have seen some evidence emerging that meds like SSRI's may cause depression when initially used for anxiety only and this was is studies but I got the impression they were still searching for the reason why that could be happening.
So in your view there is no evidence of long term damage and it is just user anxieties. I am at a crossroads as dont know whether to stay med free or go back on you see.
That's got me worried now. I do hope there's no long term damage and I'm going with what Terry says as he's never let me down yet x
MyNameIsTerry
19-07-16, 12:13
I don't think your size has anything to do with it, no matter how many times you mention it.
Neither does your boat.
Your arrogance might though. I used to be arrogant until life kicked my ass.
No, it doesn't BUT it's part of the "men don't cry" stereotype in society that often means men are less likely to seek help because they see themselves as emasculated because they don't act a certain way in society. I think that's all he means. I wouldn't jump to conclusions over arrogance on the strength of that.
The boat is quite clear. People saying 'what have you got to be unhappy about? You're doing well' and how that is irrelevant when you're mental health is suffering. Winning the lottery can mean nothing when your health is bad.
---------- Post added at 12:13 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------
So in your view there is no evidence of long term damage and it is just user anxieties. I am at a crossroads as dont know whether to stay med free or go back on you see.
I'm saying, there are many horror stories out there.
I could show you a website making claims that antidepressants kill people. Yet this is just scaremongering because all such concerns are thoroughly investigated. You can find mortality rates against a lot of meds dished out every day by doctors which are safe but those with agendas will seek to distort this in favour of what they are selling. So, be careful.
I can't say there is no evidence because I've not researched it to be sure enough to say to someone with certainty but that doesn't mean I'm worried in the slightest. I've been on 2 so far covering most of a decade. It also means that I won't look on the Meds board at all the threads saying meds don't help or meds have made people worse and believe that is a true reflection of the majority of users.
Think of it this way too. Some meds are known to cause damage long term some are known to cause metabolic changes long term, etc. These are reported. If antidepressants were showing this, there would be warnings. Where are the warnings? Just on a user website? That's not a qualified view.
Ok thanks . My Psych said only meds could help ( thought they may not ) and other therapies were not much use . Im not happy with this as I want to stay med free if I can.
But I know others who have been fine with it hence I'm open minded when discussing any med but I do disagree on the point that it's the sufferer's anxiety and not the med
Respectfully Terry, I didn't actually say it was the sufferer's anxiety and not the med.
I meant that the meds taking effect exacerbate the original anxiety symptoms, so it is directly caused by the meds, but this is pretty much par for the course.
The sufferer's actual anxiety level is doubtless much lower prior to starting meds, but intrusive enough that they need some help, but the meds make things worse, but eventually better. (if that makes sense)
I'm not suggesting all meds are perfection and solve all mental health woes, far from it. As I said, it is subjective.
I personally believe that there is far too much demonization of mental health meds, however. I refuse to read all of the scare stories. I make my evaluation based on my own experiences, and until I see something adverse in my life, I really don't care what conclusion Dr. Whoever has come to about their efficacy and long term (ahem) 'damage'.
Amazing how it is always psych meds that are the root of all evil and yet little is publicised about physical medications, and their 'damaging effects'.
Not quite contraversial or sensational enough, perhaps?
I appreciate your choice to take meds but it is a choice and isn't compulsory. If a particular med works for you then that's good news and make sure you are properly monitored on it.
---------- Post added at 12:22 ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 ----------
Debs, I think psychotropic meds have a bad press because not much is known about them hence the trial and error tactics. If something suits you and helps then all well and good.
MyNameIsTerry
19-07-16, 12:31
Respectfully Terry, I didn't actually say it was the sufferer's anxiety and not the med.
I meant that the meds taking effect exacerbate the original anxiety symptoms, so it is directly caused by the meds, but this is pretty much par for the course.
The sufferer's actual anxiety level is doubtless much lower prior to starting meds, but intrusive enough that they need some help, but the meds make things worse, but eventually better. (if that makes sense)
I'm not suggesting all meds are perfection and solve all mental health woes, far from it. As I said, it is subjective.
I personally believe that there is far too much demonization of mental health meds, however. I refuse to read all of the scare stories. I make my evaluation based on my own experiences, and until I see something adverse in my life, I really don't care what conclusion Dr. Whoever has come to about their efficacy and long term (ahem) 'damage'.
Amazing how it is always psych meds that are the root of all evil and yet little is publicised about physical medications, and their 'damaging effects'.
Not quite contraversial or sensational enough, perhaps?
Whilst I agree with you, Debs, I don't believe it's always the case.
From my experience with Duloxetine, I had many symptoms I never had days before or in the previous 4 years including starting another med that helped me more. That is well known with these meds but it should go.
I never had OCD. It didn't go as the side effects window passed. The side effects continued long after they should have ended.
Was it an intensification of my own anxiety that was taken to a much more complex level? That's possible, but it didn't go without a lot of hard work over years which defeated the object of going on it as therapy could have done that with my anxiety before it.
I think for some like myself, the knock the side effects mean spending time clawing your back too. I had that the first time and never doubted it was a combination of the two. But my later experience was a different matter.
I agree about the demonisation. That's about the people who do it, and many of them do it out of financial incentive. My experience of Duloxetine is bad but I will still encourage people to use it someone else might go around every anxiety forum preaching about how evil it is.
I've watched my mum get experimented on with blood pressure meds for years with doctors in hospital telling her her GP is a numpty. She was one of the unlucky ones that statins didn't agree with, a med that left her needing a walking stick due to It's damage. You no doubt know the mess doctors caused in osteoporosis. My mum had that.
You no doubt know the mess doctors caused in osteoporosis. My mum had that.
Oh blimey, Terry. Don't get me started about doctors, lol. From both working in health and being a patient myself, I could write a book on it.:wacko::wacko::wacko:
I honestly take my hat off to anyone who manages their mental health issues without meds.
MyNameIsTerry
19-07-16, 12:51
Oh blimey, Terry. Don't get me started about doctors, lol. From both working in health and being a patient myself, I could write a book on it.:wacko::wacko::wacko:
I honestly take my hat off to anyone who manages their mental health issues without meds.
I used to think it was just mental health that GP's are bad at, Debs, but my mum has had plenty of problems with physical issues. Now that she is elderly she's at that stage where they just throw pills everything. Not one blood pressure med has helped yet, the water tablets caused problems, she's had persistent coughs for years and fluid on the lungs, the blood pressure meds give her terrible skin rashes with so much itching and the last one caused Cellulitis!
I guess we are focused on mental health on here so perhaps things appear a bit biased but you're right, physical meds cause tons of problems. People might be shocked if they looked up the side effect profile of many of the things we take for granted. But perhaps that's important in dispelling those scary leaflets?
---------- Post added at 12:51 ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 ----------
Ok thanks . My Psych said only meds could help ( thought they may not ) and other therapies were not much use . Im not happy with this as I want to stay med free if I can.
I think your psychiatrist is a dubious one. Therapy is proven to work too so I would want to hear a very good bespoke assessment as to why it wouldn't help me and yours seemed to lack that.
Google will do you more damage to your mind than any med will , look at the trend we all google everything, everyone I know who isn't mentally ill also don't google anything, i spiralled into mental breakdown territory when my bp was a bit high and the nurse said I'm borderline stroke territory instead of just saying i was a bit worked up....started googling and taking my bp way too often....6 years later nothings ever happened physically I've just had years of mental torture, my ocd prior to this was just checking the taps were turned off a few times
I'm bound to be negative because of my personal experience and I do except meds help some people but 90% of my mental problems came after I started the meds before I had no intrusive thoughts no health anxiety no panic attacks , what I meant about alcohol was I drank before I started meds after that it was completely a different experience one of panic and dread not fun , I had to stick with the meds for six months to try and get back to some normality , I couldn't drink at all for two years and now I have no more than two drinks or my anxiety go's crazy , before meds I was stressed and not sleeping after I terrifying thoughts I'd never had before which I can't undo , if somone is already in that position there isn't much to lose from trying them they may well work I guess it all depends on your mental state in the first place .
I used to think it was just mental health that GP's are bad at, Debs, but my mum has had plenty of problems with physical issues. Now that she is elderly she's at that stage where they just throw pills everything. Not one blood pressure med has helped yet, the water tablets caused problems, she's had persistent coughs for years and fluid on the lungs, the blood pressure meds give her terrible skin rashes with so much itching and the last one caused Cellulitis!
I guess we are focused on mental health on here so perhaps things appear a bit biased but you're right, physical meds cause tons of problems. People might be shocked if they looked up the side effect profile of many of the things we take for granted. But perhaps that's important in dispelling those scary leaflets?
---------- Post added at 12:51 ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 ----------
I think your psychiatrist is a dubious one. Therapy is proven to work too so I would want to hear a very good bespoke assessment as to why it wouldn't help me and yours seemed to lack that.
Hi Terry, I was only in there about an hour ,told him my history of always being grumpy ( phobias ,I cannot really go into big cities but ok anywhere else ). He said some people are just born anxious and they either turn to drink or seek help with meds or other therapies. He went onto say that therapies have very limited success and told me of a story of one young patient he has that has never left his room and in his view never would ! He said I had two choices just live with it or try meds which may or may not work . The psych is at a good hospital and I had save up money to see him ,havent paid bill yet though .
He let you see him for an hour and not pay the bill ? Plus he discussed other patients with you ? Think you need to see someone else jimmy
He'll send Jimmy the bill in due course, have no fear of that...
I expect he kept those patients anonymous but even so, his information is very flawed. Standards at "good" private mental health facilities can be very patchy and I'm sorry that you had this "advice", Jimmy. Psychiatrists can be very hit and miss and I think you've had a "miss" from this one.
---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 17:27 ----------
And with respect, ohwell123, I don't think you necessarily need meds to challenge and rise above health anxiety but this has always been a controversial subject and people will discuss the pros and cons ad infinitum. Whatever works is what matters regardless of what it takes to achieve a better quality of life
I think a title change is needed here.
I think a title change is needed here.
I agree. Something along the lines of "How meds have helped me manage my anxiety"?
I don't, because it's my opinion , I have had to admit defeat that if mentally ill now need medication, I used to have pure O with urges again only ever diagnosed as anxiety but in my head I was a physcopath I look bk now and it all seems so stupid the urge to harm someone!!! I'm the kind of bloke who would save someone, very real to me and speaking to a therapist wouldn't have stopped the urges, a chemical inbalance
He'll send Jimmy the bill in due course, have no fear of that...
I expect he kept those patients anonymous but even so, his information is very flawed. Standards at "good" private mental health facilities can be very patchy and I'm sorry that you had this "advice", Jimmy. Psychiatrists can be very hit and miss and I think you've had a "miss" from this one.
---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 17:27 ----------
And with respect, ohwell123, I don't think you necessarily need meds to challenge and rise above health anxiety but this has always been a controversial subject and people will discuss the pros and cons ad infinitum. Whatever works is what matters regardless of what it takes to achieve a better quality of life
Yes Pulisa ,it really set me back ,I was amazed he said that therapies make little difference and either like it or lump it. I also know someone who was housebound that nows gets out so what was he on about saying his patient would never leave his room,Im not sure whether to complain about this " expert".
If it wouldn't cause you too much anxiety I think that may be a good idea. You will be shelling out some hard earned cash and deserve value for money at the very least. He's given you a very negative summing up of your condition-you don't want false hope but it's certainly not all doom and gloom. It's perfectly reasonable to respectfully challenge his opinion.
Yes surely some people with anxiety have happy lives without meds and cope ok?
Of course they do. You've had a bad experience with this psychiatrist.
Thanks Pulisa ,he is a fellow of Royal College of Psychiatrists so thought he would have helped but I suppose there is disagreement in treatments even among top Psychiatrists ?
I would have thought he wouldn't have such a blinkered attitude but as you say they all have different opinions. I don't think his views would be considered as "standard" but I'm not medically qualified and am just speaking as someone who has had numerous consultations in the past.
MyNameIsTerry
19-07-16, 23:05
Thanks Pulisa ,he is a fellow of Royal College of Psychiatrists so thought he would have helped but I suppose there is disagreement in treatments even among top Psychiatrists ?
OCD UK recently wrote to them because several of their members claimed there was no such thing as fearing a change in sexuality in OCD. It's well known as a theme worldwide.
There is still no agreement on how these disorders are created. You can be born with a gene but something has to activate it otherwise it lies dormant. Since that's come out of cancer research, which they throw billions at and are now even bringing out cancer meds to refuse the activation process, I think I'm willing to trust that. You will find it under Epigenetics and the activation process is called Methylation. It disproves what this numpty of a psychiatrist thinks.
I personally had bad experiences with antidepressants and I was on them for almost 6 years so definitely wasn't start up effects. My anxiety is managed without meds. I do have BDD (undiagnosed but pretty obvious I have it to those close to me) but meds never helped with this anyway. My panic attacks were overcome with Propranolol but once I stopped taking it they never returned and I haven't had one in over 3 years.
Everybody responds differently and it's well known antidepressants have side effects which can impact ones life (my main ones were weight gain, loss of libido, loss of emotion/enjoyment, over sleeping every single day), these may not sound significant to some but they have destroyed my relationships with my partner and daughter due to my lack of interest in anything. I have lost most of the weight gained and my libido is back to normal, I also no longer sleep upto 11 hours a night, but I still don't feel the same at all.
I know somebody who overcome a bad patch (anxiety) with less than 6 months on meds. I know people who have been depressed and never touched meds and overcame. I also know people who swear they saved their lives and would happily take them forever. Nobody can say antidepressants definitely do or don't work and nobody can say you will need them forever or only short term. We aren't all clones and everybody reacts differently.
I'm mainly basing my opinion on depression although I do have anxiety just not as much as I do depression. Even if you do need to take antidepressants forever, if it will give you a better quality of life it may well be worth it
I personally had bad experiences with antidepressants and I was on them for almost 6 years so definitely wasn't start up effects. My anxiety is managed without meds. I do have BDD (undiagnosed but pretty obvious I have it to those close to me) but meds never helped with this anyway. My panic attacks were overcome with Propranolol but once I stopped taking it they never returned and I haven't had one in over 3 years.
Everybody responds differently and it's well known antidepressants have side effects which can impact ones life (my main ones were weight gain, loss of libido, loss of emotion/enjoyment, over sleeping every single day), these may not sound significant to some but they have destroyed my relationships with my partner and daughter due to my lack of interest in anything. I have lost most of the weight gained and my libido is back to normal, I also no longer sleep upto 11 hours a night, but I still don't feel the same at all.
I know somebody who overcome a bad patch (anxiety) with less than 6 months on meds. I know people who have been depressed and never touched meds and overcame. I also know people who swear they saved their lives and would happily take them forever. Nobody can say antidepressants definitely do or don't work and nobody can say you will need them forever or only short term. We aren't all clones and everybody reacts differently.
I'm mainly basing my opinion on depression although I do have anxiety just not as much as I do depression. Even if you do need to take antidepressants forever, if it will give you a better quality of life it may well be worth it
Hi Keekee you say you "dont feel same at all" after taking anti-depressants ,what do you mean please ?
Jimmyj do you also take note of any medication success stories? If I was your therapist i would tell you that!! Theres a big difference between a negative thought pattern and actually going in search of the negative stories and not the positives.....if you were seriously physically Ill and got told to take medication would you try and beat it without? You wouldn't and the same should go for your mental health
I have also started Sertraline recently, about a month in. It has been an absolute life saver.
I won't deny that the first 10 days we're utterly horrendous, i was shaking, ultra anxious and more but wow, I am in a much better place than i was 2+ months ago.
Thanks for replying with some positive stories folks, sertraline has made me feel much better although like you I also had two weeks of horrible symptoms, flipp try and come off the benzos mate I've just gone through physcological dependence withdrawal and it is not nice and I was only on them for 6 months .....bloody good though int they drop a nice 2.5mg of lorazepam haha
"Only" 6 months? You have done really well to come off them then. Benzos work really well but are a poisoned chalice due to the addiction issue.
Cheers pulisa but yes your right it was hell on earth for 3 days, some people areseriously wrong they state there mentally cured then later on in the same post they put they just take there three Ativan a day I'm like oh good goddd lol they are in for a shock
Problem for me is the horror stories you hear about SSRI withdrawal and that there maybe some permanent damage ,is any of that stuff true?
These people who describe withdrawals from ssris, have got to be within reason wrong and are most likely suffering a rebout of anxiety as the drug us non addictive, if it was a benzo alcohol or opiate I would agree
These people who describe withdrawals from ssris, have got to be within reason wrong and are most likely suffering a rebout of anxiety as the drug us non addictive, if it was a benzo alcohol or opiate I would agree
I come off antidepressants cold turkey in April 2014 and suffered no ill effects (my depression returned of course but that's hardly suprisinv), I have read some of the withdrawal stories and quite frankly, they attribute every tiny detail to 'withdrawal' such as late periods etc which I think is daft.
However there is such a thing as discontinuation syndrome which can apparently cause withdrawal like symptoms. I've personally never experienced this but it must be awful.
Jimmyj. Basically prior to going on antidepressants I was a very 'normal' person. Enjoyed TV, music, videogames, reading and socialising. This reduced after going on antidepressants. I believe that for me at least, antidepressants work by blunting all my emotions good and bad and I ended up not liking anything. I was tired all day everyday. Now I'm just over 2 years off, things have improved but I still have no motivation to do anything. I find very little funny and don't enjoy being around people anymore.
I think because I was so emotionally blunt for such a long time it's just become my 'norm' and it's very hard to accept that. Although as I previously mentioned, things have improved a little.
Discontinuation syndrome is now recognised by psychiatrists when withdrawing from venlafaxine. It's a particularly difficult one to get off but I'm sure there are people who have suffered no ill effects. It's very much an individual response which doesn't help you, Jimmy...
It's down to trial and error again. I'm sure in the future there will be ways of gauging which AD will be best suited to the individual-now it's down to cost on the NHS. Start with the cheapest and work up to the next class of drug if you're lucky....Privately you have far more options including meds not available on the NHS at present
Thanks I was on Cit for 4 years and came off over a year ago and trying to work out whether feeling miserable all the time is a an after effect of drug or just my mood at moment ,I understand each persons response is personal as you say Pulisa and it seems there is no hard evidence of long term damage . I would like to stay med free so am reluctant to restart .
I had the same side effects when I weaned off of my SSRI as I did when I started them, and that was despite weaning them down very, very slowly.
Meds are designed to alter brain chemistry by refilling the Serotonin tank. It stands to reason that you may not just breeze in and breeze out when it comes to psych meds.
I had the same side effects when I weaned off of my SSRI as I did when I started them, and that was despite weaning them down very, very slowly.
Meds are designed to alter brain chemistry by refilling the Serotonin tank. It stands to reason that you may not just breeze in and breeze out when it comes to psych meds.
--and if you did you may wonder whether the drugs were actually doing anything?
I had the same side effects when I weaned off of my SSRI as I did when I started them, and that was despite weaning them down very, very slowly.
Meds are designed to alter brain chemistry by refilling the Serotonin tank. It stands to reason that you may not just breeze in and breeze out when it comes to psych meds.
Thanks I understand that but wanted to know whether withdrawal symptoms pass in a few months as they do when you initially take them even after long term use .
I hope we can discuss these things without any hatred, I have appreciated peoples inputs regardless of whether I agree....i still don't agree there are withdrawals from ssris otherwise they would make you feel ready for the world after 1 tablet...like benzos alcohol coke etc......there may be an issue in some circumstances but rarely and and my point was jimmy likes to find these rare cases imho and he will never cure his issues if that is his behaviour
Thanks I understand that but wanted to know whether withdrawal symptoms pass in a few months as they do when you initially take them even after long term use .
If they were caused due to you quitting the meds then yes I'd say so. If your anxiety/depression comes back I wouldn't class that as withdrawal personally or long term effects as it's bound to come back for some people.
When I wrote my previous post saying I believe you can have long term effects I was meaning things that you'd had throughout treatment (for example some people gain weight from antidepressants and never lose it, that, to me is a long term effect. The same goes for those of us who experienced blunted emotions). However even long term side effects don't necessarily mean permanent.
I've never experienced the usual side effects from starting antidepressants, upping doses, missing doses or quitting (such as increased anxiety, brain Zaps, whatever they are and so on) so I'm not very sure about all that. I could go around 14 days without taking my meds before I'd notice a decrease in my mood.
I hope we can discuss these things without any hatred, I have appreciated peoples inputs regardless of whether I agree....i still don't agree there are withdrawals from ssris otherwise they would make you feel ready for the world after 1 tablet...like benzos alcohol coke etc......there may be an issue in some circumstances but rarely and and my point was jimmy likes to find these rare cases imho and he will never cure his issues if that is his behaviour
I tend to agree with you and believe scare stories I've read are from people who create a self fulfilling prophecy through their anxieties .
Discontinuation syndrome is now recognised by psychiatrists when withdrawing from venlafaxine. It's a particularly difficult one to get off but I'm sure there are people who have suffered no ill effects. It's very much an individual response which doesn't help you, Jimmy...
It's down to trial and error again. I'm sure in the future there will be ways of gauging which AD will be best suited to the individual-now it's down to cost on the NHS. Start with the cheapest and work up to the next class of drug if you're lucky....Privately you have far more options including meds not available on the NHS at presentBut what about discontinuing venlafaxine while simultaneously introducing an alternative SSRI or SNRI? I'm due to see my GP next week because I'm struggling. To add some extra spice to the mix, I take 45mg mirtazapine as well.
Fishman, my experience is only from coming off ven and not replacing it with another SSRI/SNRI or any other AD
Just out of interest I have a close friend who's a pharmacist and two local rich footballers are on mental health drugs that the general public haven't heard of.....its a bit like the old in joke that you never hear a member of the royal family dying of cancer
Just out of interest I have a close friend who's a pharmacist and two local rich footballers are on mental health drugs that the general public haven't heard of.....its a bit like the old in joke that you never hear a member of the royal family dying of cancer
In my opinion there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking mental health drugs regardless of who you are. I also think there's nothing wrong with choosing not to take medication. There is no wrong or right. I hope your friend didn't give the names of these footballers.
MyNameIsTerry
20-07-16, 23:01
Discontinuation syndrome is now recognised by psychiatrists when withdrawing from venlafaxine. It's a particularly difficult one to get off but I'm sure there are people who have suffered no ill effects. It's very much an individual response which doesn't help you, Jimmy...
It's down to trial and error again. I'm sure in the future there will be ways of gauging which AD will be best suited to the individual-now it's down to cost on the NHS. Start with the cheapest and work up to the next class of drug if you're lucky....Privately you have far more options including meds not available on the NHS at present
If people don't believe withdrawal syndrome exists, it just points to the fact they haven't done enough research.
NICE guidance specifically instructs to inform patients about the potential for it and in particular for Ven and Paroxetine to allow patients to make informed choices.
If anyone wants to dispute it's existence, try looking at professional drug databases and telling them why all that research based science is flawed.
I came off Cit and had the typical brain zaps, cotton wool heads and dizziness. I had never had brain zaps before then. It was pretty easy though compared to onset side effects and went quickly. But I was much better by then.
You have to careful with user stories. Many people are withdrawing when they are still very ill or switching. In those circumstances you can expect a bad experience.
---------- Post added at 23:01 ---------- Previous post was at 23:00 ----------
In my opinion there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking mental health drugs regardless of who you are. I also think there's nothing wrong with choosing not to take medication. There is no wrong or right. I hope your friend didn't give the names of these footballers.
The Data Protection Act alone springs to mind. :doh:
Just out of interest I have a close friend who's a pharmacist and two local rich footballers are on mental health drugs that the general public haven't heard of.....its a bit like the old in joke that you never hear a member of the royal family dying of cancerThe general public haven't heard of these footballers or a new drug that hasn't been heard of? Footballers are certainly not immune to mental health crises of their own despite popular perception of them in the media. The tragic case of Gary Speed springs to mind.
The thread title is contentious and has clearly flown in the face of some members here. It strikes me as a blanket, catch all kind of statement. And yet the question of cutting down on alcohol struck a chord. I spent the first seven years of my anxiety career unmedicated unless you include copious amounts of alcohol. Four years in and I went into meltdown, the following three were spent recovering as I'd refused ADs from my GP. Eventually I gave in and went on prozac which helped me initially but my drinking kept pace and once again another meltdown followed which suggests in my case alcohol played a part in negating any beneficial effects the prozac was having.
But then life contains far more environmental variables than just ADs and booze, leaving me to conclude that the thread title can neither be refuted nor proven.
So if the conspiracy theory of the rich getting drugs to cure mental and physical illness wouldn't David Bowie still be around , gazza would be sober , brian Wilson wouldn't be hearing voices and prince William would have a full head of hair , anyone considering taking any medication needs to look into the pros and cons I probably would have coped better had my doctor told me how bad things could get and better prepared me for it not just given me a script and opened the door , I was recently told to try propranolol instead of diazepam , I said I'd look into it first and the doc said don't google it even parcetamol have side effects like headaches , I googled it and found its a beta blocker that's not suitable for people with asthma which I have it could have killed me , half the docs don't even understand what they are prescribing you , definitely no hatred from me I save that for paedos and animal abusers , this thread doesn't even come close to earning my hatred , take chap.
MyNameIsTerry
20-07-16, 23:49
But then life contains far more environmental variables than just ADs and booze, leaving me to conclude that the thread title can neither be refuted nor proven.
But it already has been refuted, by those who have done it through therapy or other methods. Their existence proves the possibility.
The thread title is opinion, not fact. The OP is entitled to that but it's going to be challenged & discussed. Anecdotal evidence, the OP's own experience is irrelevant in the bigger picture.
I think he has done very well to get off the Benzo's and I'm really pleased to hear he has found a med that is working for him, I hope it continues. But cure is a test of time. There are plenty of people on the HA board who start with 'been fine for weeks', which just means it's part of their pattern and I prefer to look at the longer game with those environmental factors.
But it already has been refuted, by those who have done it through therapy or other methods. Their existence proves the possibility.
The thread title is opinion, not fact. The OP is entitled to that but it's going to be challenged & discussed. Anecdotal evidence, the OP's own experience is irrelevant in the bigger picture.
I think he has done very well to get off the Benzo's and I'm really pleased to hear he has found a med that is working for him, I hope it continues. But cure is a test of time. There are plenty of people on the HA board who start with 'been fine for weeks', which just means it's part of their pattern and I prefer to look at the longer game with those environmental factors.With the greatest respect,how can you claim the thread title has been refuted? Isn't that claim anecdotal in itself? And done what through therapy or other methods? A complete cure? Your argument is reliant upon anecdotes and I never said the OP's 'opinion' shouldn't be challenged.
MyNameIsTerry
21-07-16, 05:15
With the greatest respect,how can you claim the thread title has been refuted? Isn't that claim anecdotal in itself? And done what through therapy or other methods? A complete cure? Your argument is reliant upon anecdotes and I never said the OP's 'opinion' shouldn't be challenged.
Yes, what I said about sufferers were anecdotes but therapy is based on evidence. Are you suggesting therapy does not work at all? No single person worldwide has ever recovered through therapy? So, why do medical professionals recommend something that has no scientific basis for recovery?
NICE state the patient is advised on the pros & cons of drug therapy and psychological therapy and given the choice. In reality, that happens as much as multi coloured elephants fly over my house. But NICE base their recommendations on empirical science.
Meds are mostly so cheap we could be medicated for years before the cost breaks even with a course of CBT. So, the NHS would be very happy to go with the cheap solution and not bring in psychological therapies which cost a lot of money to set up compared to a lazy GP handing over a prescription.
Anyway, back to the anecdotes. The OP raises the hypothesis that it is not possible to beat anxiety without meds. Thus anyone who ever did would need to be analysed to determine if they have or if they are mistaken. By mistaken, I mean as in incorrectly perceiving their recovery. If even one person is found to have done it this way, the hypothesis is proven to be false. This would mean more is needed to analyse why and whether the hypothesis should be changed, but it would still be false at this point.
Spin it another way. You cannot beat anxiety with meds. Now, we all know that meds don't cure anxiety, they were never designed to and the old "anxiety causes low Serotonin" has never been proved anyway as they can't determine whether low Serotonin is caused by anxiety itself, but they provide stability allowing the person to recover. Whilst we can argue that the med hasn't provided the cure, it has substantially tipped the scales.
Meds are only licenced based on evidence they can work, not that they do, well certainly in the case of antidepressants since they were not designed for this purpose, only found to work. The same can be said for anti psychotics, anti convulsants, etc. But therapies such as CBT are evidence based too. And then we have studies comparing CBT vs. certain meds.
So, are all the CBT studies actually incorrect and people like NICE have made a rather catastrophic error?
So, no, my argument is not reliant upon anecdotes. I did include anecdotes because we have people around telling us how they did it without medication, some of them have been on this forum. Are they mistaken? If so, that's some books that people need to stop buying.
There will be cases where dual strategies are needed and NICE are quite clear that for severe or refractory anxiety they are to be considered. But for mild-to-moderate, they disagree with purely meds. The NHS work off NICE guidance.
Here's another anecdote. We have threads on here, and people on the internet, saying you will suffer from depression lifelong and even if you recover, it's only remission and you can fall back into it. My dad had 2 years of it, was on meds for some time and then recovered with no therapy, no self help books, just support from family. He's not had a relapse in 40+ years. Anecdotal yes. But I know he has not suffered in my lifetime since I've been there and that blows such a hypothesis out of the water to me.
---------- Post added at 05:15 ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 ----------
I was recently told to try propranolol instead of diazepam , I said I'd look into it first and the doc said don't google it even parcetamol have side effects like headaches , I googled it and found its a beta blocker that's not suitable for people with asthma which I have it could have killed me , half the docs don't even understand what they are prescribing you , definitely no hatred from me I save that for paedos and animal abusers , this thread doesn't even come close to earning my hatred , take chap.
Buster,
Yes, Propranalol is considered high risk but the NHS do use it with asthma sufferers where it is warranted. There are safer beta blockers otherwise for asthma sufferers. I agree with you though, your GP obviously didn't check because there was no discussion about the risks and you would need stricter monitoring. Basically, it's another epic fail by GP's who can't be bothered to check for contraindications.
However, your pharmacist (if your regular one) will see you are on asthma meds and speak to you. They won't just dispense them if they see your other meds. Unless they can determine your GP is happy with the risks, they will refuse to give them to you. I've been in my pharmacy across from the GP surgery and seen the guy come out and refuse on this basis sending the person back to their GP (and in an understandable bad mood!).
It sounds like Propranolol will possibly be useful even in asthma sufferers in the future. There are studies going on showing it as an alternative to asthma meds so hopefully in the future the science is due a change and more beta blockers will be available to asthma sufferers.
Just out of interest I have a close friend who's a pharmacist and two local rich footballers are on mental health drugs that the general public haven't heard of.....its a bit like the old in joke that you never hear a member of the royal family dying of cancer
Just to be pedantic, the Queen's Father, George V1, died of lung cancer..
Personally I don't think you can beat anxiety with meds alone but that's a whole new thread..
Only read the headline but I totally disagree with it. This is my own personal experience :)
MyNameIsTerry
21-07-16, 08:39
Just to be pedantic, the Queen's Father, George V1, died of lung cancer..
Personally I don't think you can beat anxiety with meds alone but that's a whole new thread..
And of course, cancer like many illnesses are only labelled from their discovery. How many died before it had a name? Just the same as how PTSD suddenly came into existence last century despite the human race terrorising & waging war on each other since the dawn of time!
People are obsessed with giving things labels Terry
and they were more able to just " get on with it" in the old days :)
MyNameIsTerry
21-07-16, 08:45
That's the funny thing, Phuzella, labelling & mislabelling is one of the Cognitive Distortions. Maybe we can tell the psychologists their thinking is skewed. :yesyes:
I still remember the days when a school caretaker wasn't a "plant manager" or some other silly title. :doh:
Yep the world's gone mad or some other psychological based label :shrug::D
A lot of these new labels have contributed to people wanting a diagnosis when they are just experiencing normal emotions.
There are a lot of very dodgy new "diagnoses" out there.
MyNameIsTerry
21-07-16, 09:04
Yep, I'm all for some of them but there seems to be a trend to label the normal stuff too. We've got Adjustment Disorders which can cover a lot but there is some odd stuff coming from the US people in their latest DSM that has been criticised for diagnosing someone with something they could just experience in life and then move on from.
Grief was one that was mentioned. That can be diagnosed as an Adjustment Disorder in the UK per the WHO manual but no doctor is going to attach a diagnosis unless your grief becomes a real problem. There were other ones criticised, swgrl will probably know, I think some were seen as natural processes in childhood?
Perhaps we are swinging from ignorance to indulgence. :biggrin: It reminds me of Duncan Bannatyne telling off someone in Dragon's Den because they had over engineered something into something that didn't need to exist.
---------- Post added at 09:04 ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 ----------
Yep the world's gone mad or some other psychological based label :shrug::D
World Nonsensical Disorder. :yesyes:
Cowellaphobia was a good one. I think I have a variant of that because I don't want to scream when I see him, I want to head-butt the TV. :winks:
Ive read some awful reports about " protracted withdrawal " that can go on for years ,I was on CIT for 4 years and just wonder if there is any substance to this as having been off for a year I feel pretty miserable all the time .
MyNameIsTerry
21-07-16, 10:37
Ive read some awful reports about " protracted withdrawal " that can go on for years ,I was on CIT for 4 years and just wonder if there is any substance to this as having been off for a year I feel pretty miserable all the time .
I've seen them too, Jimmy. Paroxetine tends to have some pretty bad reports from ex users with the whole electric current twang thing. But I've seen people on here also say they came off it no problem.
Similar is said about Ven.
Meds are such a minefield.
They work a certain way. If you think about how they work when we start taking them, and keeping it simple think of SSRI's, they have 2 stages. Stage 1 means stimulating the release of more existing Serotonin into the space between the sending/reuptake receptors and the receiving receptors. So, initially you get more than usual to work with. Stage 2 is the down regulation which basically just means the reuptake receptors get plugged up so there are less holes to reabsorb through. You get the two-fold effect of more in that gap between and less being reabsorbed out of that gap.
Stage 1 is quick as it's all about what the med is doing within hours of you swallowing it. Stage 2 takes time. I can't remember which SSRI it was (not Fluoxetine since it takes 5 weeks just to stabilise this long half life med) but I saw a study showing down regulation taking a month.
It's always a problem to understand this stuff though, I've been on Cit and that didn't start helping me until 2 months in. Does that take 2 months to down regulate, I wonder? Well it can't because we have people on here saying it helped sooner. So, there may be individual factors involved. I can't say I've looked into that yet.
So, when I think about withdrawal I consider how it started. Cutting out the med must mean a quicker drop in Serotonin in that space - so we get withdrawal side effects to match that. But what about those reuptake receptors that were plugged up by the longer term use of the med? Those must unplug themselves to "back out" the process. So, when it comes to the question of a protracted withdrawal, does it mean this element takes longer and some of us feel it? But there's a problem with that too - my withdrawal from Cit was done & dusted in about 15 days.
Does anyone even know? :shrug:
ankietyjoe
21-07-16, 11:15
No, it doesn't BUT it's part of the "men don't cry" stereotype in society that often means men are less likely to seek help because they see themselves as emasculated because they don't act a certain way in society. I think that's all he means. I wouldn't jump to conclusions over arrogance on the strength of that.
The boat is quite clear. People saying 'what have you got to be unhappy about? You're doing well' and how that is irrelevant when you're mental health is suffering. Winning the lottery can mean nothing when your health is bad.
I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm making observations based on evidence.
The title of the thread is the biggest pointer towards arrogance in my opinion, and the reason I mention arrogance is that my experience is that humility is a good trait to nurture when dealing with anxiety.
As far as meds/labels/diagnosis goes it's pretty clear to me it's fuelled by the fact that the more syndromes that are 'discovered', the more expensive medications can be created to treat them.
The issue with modern life is that it doesn't financially allow you to do the things that are required for natural sustained recovery. Rest, relaxation, slowing down the pace of your life, going for walks in nature etc etc etc.
After reading about the withdrawal from AD's I think I will just stay on them what would happen?if I did.
I've seen them too, Jimmy. Paroxetine tends to have some pretty bad reports from ex users with the whole electric current twang thing. But I've seen people on here also say they came off it no problem.
Similar is said about Ven.
Meds are such a minefield.
They work a certain way. If you think about how they work when we start taking them, and keeping it simple think of SSRI's, they have 2 stages. Stage 1 means stimulating the release of more existing Serotonin into the space between the sending/reuptake receptors and the receiving receptors. So, initially you get more than usual to work with. Stage 2 is the down regulation which basically just means the reuptake receptors get plugged up so there are less holes to reabsorb through. You get the two-fold effect of more in that gap between and less being reabsorbed out of that gap.
Stage 1 is quick as it's all about what the med is doing within hours of you swallowing it. Stage 2 takes time. I can't remember which SSRI it was (not Fluoxetine since it takes 5 weeks just to stabilise this long half life med) but I saw a study showing down regulation taking a month.
It's always a problem to understand this stuff though, I've been on Cit and that didn't start helping me until 2 months in. Does that take 2 months to down regulate, I wonder? Well it can't because we have people on here saying it helped sooner. So, there may be individual factors involved. I can't say I've looked into that yet.
So, when I think about withdrawal I consider how it started. Cutting out the med must mean a quicker drop in Serotonin in that space - so we get withdrawal side effects to match that. But what about those reuptake receptors that were plugged up by the longer term use of the med? Those must unplug themselves to "back out" the process. So, when it comes to the question of a protracted withdrawal, does it mean this element takes longer and some of us feel it? But there's a problem with that too - my withdrawal from Cit was done & dusted in about 15 days.
Does anyone even know? :shrug:
How long were you on them for , what I am concerned about is if there is any substance to feeling bad for years after or whether its just " scare stories ".
MyNameIsTerry
21-07-16, 12:02
How long were you on them for , what I am concerned about is if there is any substance to feeling bad for years after or whether its just " scare stories ".
It must have been about 3, maybe 4 years. I came off then and relapsed 6 months later as I hadn't really worked on the issues (I just trusted my GP and so never came into contact with fellow sufferers or any therapy or self help).
Been on Duloxetine now a bit longer than the Cit.
The issue with the scare stories is knowing whether they are even real (some are just sellers or trolls) and whether they have truly worked out why something has happened. I have a problem with the latter because when I read threads about things like alcohol, I see many mistakes in perception.
I'm not sure you will get the answer without looking deeper into research. Scare stories exist out there for anything.
---------- Post added at 12:01 ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 ----------
I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm making observations based on evidence.
The title of the thread is the biggest pointer towards arrogance in my opinion, and the reason I mention arrogance is that my experience is that humility is a good trait to nurture when dealing with anxiety.
As far as meds/labels/diagnosis goes it's pretty clear to me it's fuelled by the fact that the more syndromes that are 'discovered', the more expensive medications can be created to treat them.
The issue with modern life is that it doesn't financially allow you to do the things that are required for natural sustained recovery. Rest, relaxation, slowing down the pace of your life, going for walks in nature etc etc etc.
Sorry Joe, the evidence could be construed in more than one way.
I can easily see how the boat element is completely innocent, I don't see it as a bragging point. But it could be seen either way, depending on what we are looking for.
Of course, your opinion is yours. I was just saying there could be more than one perception to it and in my opinion, the evidence goes more than one way. Some people just write a certain way without intending offence but obviously that's speculation on my part.
I see what you are saying though.
---------- Post added at 12:02 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------
After reading about the withdrawal from AD's I think I will just stay on them what would happen?if I did.
Who knows, Karina. If you & your doctor are happy to do that, it's your choice. Doctors over here are more likely to want us off them for financial reasons alone, as well as the guidance which says they are not for permanent use.
Sometimes they poop out long term, sometimes they don't. Maybe you would just be fine long term?
--and if you did you may wonder whether the drugs were actually doing anything?
Yes, they did do something. While I was taking them. They kept me level and enabled me to function like a normal human being.
My point was that I had both start up and weaning effects. That wasn't an illustration that the drugs didn't help me...:shrug:
Look, bottom line is I am not going to get into arguments or backwards and forwards rows about if meds are good or not.
To repeat myself : THEY ARE SUBJECTIVE.
They helped me, and continue to. If people don't agree, fair enough.
My issue is with the constant demonisation of psychiatric drugs. That annoys me, as that kind of attitude puts off a lot of very mentally sick people from making valued, sensible decisions during a time of great torment about whether they can take meds, as they become petrified of doing so, when they could POSSIBLY be helped by medicinal treatments.
If we are gonna have that discussion then let's have it about ALL MEDS, across the board. Not just spew up harum scarum, hocus pocus, mind altering, brainwashing scare stories about the evils of psych meds.
I'm bowing out here.
It must have been about 3, maybe 4 years. I came off then and relapsed 6 months later as I hadn't really worked on the issues (I just trusted my GP and so never came into contact with fellow sufferers or any therapy or self help).
Been on Duloxetine now a bit longer than the Cit.
The issue with the scare stories is knowing whether they are even real (some are just sellers or trolls) and whether they have truly worked out why something has happened. I have a problem with the latter because when I read threads about things like alcohol, I see many mistakes in perception.
I'm not sure you will get the answer without looking deeper into research. Scare stories exist out there for anything.
---------- Post added at 12:01 ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 ----------
Sorry Joe, the evidence could be construed in more than one way.
I can easily see how the boat element is completely innocent, I don't see it as a bragging point. But it could be seen either way, depending on what we are looking for.
Of course, your opinion is yours. I was just saying there could be more than one perception to it and in my opinion, the evidence goes more than one way. Some people just write a certain way without intending offence but obviously that's speculation on my part.
I see what you are saying though.
---------- Post added at 12:02 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------
Who knows, Karina. If you & your doctor are happy to do that, it's your choice. Doctors over here are more likely to want us off them for financial reasons alone, as well as the guidance which says they are not for permanent use.
Sometimes they poop out long term, sometimes they don't. Maybe you would just be fine long term?
Thanks Terry what do you mean "Scare stories exist out there for anything"?
Do you not think relapse was due to citalopram then ?
MyNameIsTerry
21-07-16, 13:32
Thanks Terry what do you mean "Scare stories exist out there for anything"?
Do you not think relapse was due to citalopram then ?
No chance. My relapse was because the anxiety was still there underneath. The Cit really helped me but it was covering up. If you don't address your issues & the insecurities then you leave a foundation for a relapse. Well that's just what I believe.
My work was constant pressure, which previously I thrived on, so without resolving my problems, some of which was excess pressure due to the work culture, a relapse was likely inevitable for me.
What I meant about scare stories exist for everything was a general comment. You can read about someone having a bad reaction to a commonly used antibiotic, a shark attacking the odd person out of thousands or how a trip to your city centre for a night out has led to someone ending up in a terrible state from booze, drugs or violence. It's all out there and if we lived our lives by that we would live in a little bubble.
There is a an element of risk. Assess the risk and determine whether taking a leap of faith is worse than what you will be like if you don't act. I think we have to look at it that way because there isn't a med used in mental health that hasn't got a scare story with it but there will be many times that number in people who have been helped by the med.
jimmy what im saying is and what terrys saying is you can find scare stories for everything type in your elbow hurts into google youll have everything apart from tennis elbow , youll have bone cancer, and some rare joint eating bug......
also im sorry but when I cant go to a shop without feeling like im gonna faint and my breathing goes all messed up, which Is something that has never bothered me ie I have no fear of shopping ....something is messed up!!! and going for a walk in the country side will not make me better
a lot of people are in denial when it comes to mental health they think they'll beat it and they will still be here 5 years later saying they feel ukk
its everything elses fault the diet, the lack of excersise the lack of water blah blah
if you go on the sober recovery website they have a right laugh on there at the list of stuff that was causing them all these horrible symptoms one cut out cauliflower lmao.....not once did he say to himself perhaps its the 1 litre of vodka I have before dinner time:roflmao:
a lot of people are in denial when it comes to mental health they think they'll beat it and they will still be here 5 years later saying they feel ukk
I don't think it's about denial at all it's about what works for one person may not work for the other. Are you honestly trying to say you think antidepressants work for 100% of people? I took them for just under 6 years and my depression remained for the whole of that time. My emotions were blunted too which meant I enjoyed very little. I still have depression med free but I'm experienced enough to know meds aren't always the best option.
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I do agree about advice such as going for a walk will improve mental health not always being helpful, again this cannot be said for everybody and does not work for me. I don't get that 'buzz' some people get from exercise.
Yes, what I said about sufferers were anecdotes but therapy is based on evidence. Are you suggesting therapy does not work at all? No single person worldwide has ever recovered through therapy? So, why do medical professionals recommend something that has no scientific basis for recovery?
NICE state the patient is advised on the pros & cons of drug therapy and psychological therapy and given the choice. In reality, that happens as much as multi coloured elephants fly over my house. But NICE base their recommendations on empirical science.
Meds are mostly so cheap we could be medicated for years before the cost breaks even with a course of CBT. So, the NHS would be very happy to go with the cheap solution and not bring in psychological therapies which cost a lot of money to set up compared to a lazy GP handing over a prescription.
Anyway, back to the anecdotes. The OP raises the hypothesis that it is not possible to beat anxiety without meds. Thus anyone who ever did would need to be analysed to determine if they have or if they are mistaken. By mistaken, I mean as in incorrectly perceiving their recovery. If even one person is found to have done it this way, the hypothesis is proven to be false. This would mean more is needed to analyse why and whether the hypothesis should be changed, but it would still be false at this point.
Spin it another way. You cannot beat anxiety with meds. Now, we all know that meds don't cure anxiety, they were never designed to and the old "anxiety causes low Serotonin" has never been proved anyway as they can't determine whether low Serotonin is caused by anxiety itself, but they provide stability allowing the person to recover. Whilst we can argue that the med hasn't provided the cure, it has substantially tipped the scales.
Meds are only licenced based on evidence they can work, not that they do, well certainly in the case of antidepressants since they were not designed for this purpose, only found to work. The same can be said for anti psychotics, anti convulsants, etc. But therapies such as CBT are evidence based too. And then we have studies comparing CBT vs. certain meds.
So, are all the CBT studies actually incorrect and people like NICE have made a rather catastrophic error?
So, no, my argument is not reliant upon anecdotes. I did include anecdotes because we have people around telling us how they did it without medication, some of them have been on this forum. Are they mistaken? If so, that's some books that people need to stop buying.
There will be cases where dual strategies are needed and NICE are quite clear that for severe or refractory anxiety they are to be considered. But for mild-to-moderate, they disagree with purely meds. The NHS work off NICE guidance.
Here's another anecdote. We have threads on here, and people on the internet, saying you will suffer from depression lifelong and even if you recover, it's only remission and you can fall back into it. My dad had 2 years of it, was on meds for some time and then recovered with no therapy, no self help books, just support from family. He's not had a relapse in 40+ years. Anecdotal yes. But I know he has not suffered in my lifetime since I've been there and that blows such a hypothesis out of the water to me.
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Buster,
Yes, Propranalol is considered high risk but the NHS do use it with asthma sufferers where it is warranted. There are safer beta blockers otherwise for asthma sufferers. I agree with you though, your GP obviously didn't check because there was no discussion about the risks and you would need stricter monitoring. Basically, it's another epic fail by GP's who can't be bothered to check for contraindications.
However, your pharmacist (if your regular one) will see you are on asthma meds and speak to you. They won't just dispense them if they see your other meds. Unless they can determine your GP is happy with the risks, they will refuse to give them to you. I've been in my pharmacy across from the GP surgery and seen the guy come out and refuse on this basis sending the person back to their GP (and in an understandable bad mood!).
It sounds like Propranolol will possibly be useful even in asthma sufferers in the future. There are studies going on showing it as an alternative to asthma meds so hopefully in the future the science is due a change and more beta blockers will be available to asthma sufferers. I've been reading through my posts and am struggling to find where I have suggested therapy alone does not work. Nor can I find where I've said I agree with the OP's opinion that you won't beat anxiety without meds. In all honesty I'm not in the practice of debating via splitting hairs ad infinitum so will make this post on this subject my last :)
It's such a shame that this thread has caused such controversy. It's very early days for you,ohwell123-if you DO experience a blip even on your meds it will still be OK for you to talk about it on here because we all know how an anxiety disorder can "behave", with or without meds and it's no reflection on anyone's integrity, strength of character or willpower..just the nature of the beast.
im afraid its not early days for me pulisa I was put in st georges mental institute in 2011 through anxiety and pure O, convinced I was to become britains next big serial killer.....made a full recovery through citalopram and olanzapine although one bag of crisps as a weekly treat soon turned me into the size of a house and a complete spaced out shell of my usual self slurring my words ewwwww anti physcotics
made a full recovery through citalopram and olanzapine
Congratulations. As for the weight gain, it's commonplace with psychiatric drugs. I personally would rather a few extra pounds than the stress of watching every thing I ate.
I actually meant it was early days for the sertraline, ohwell123. You obviously have long term experience of how things can go but it's great that you have confidence in your meds and that's half the battle. I'm sure a lot of people anticipate problems and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
when I say weight gain with anti physc drugs that's one effect I do agree with in a bad way....I only had to think about a bag of real mccoys and id get a neck on me like a walrus
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