View Full Version : Hi, my name is Justinian
Since 2008 I have been seeing psychiatrists, most of whom barely speak English.
This is because junior doctors here are treated appallingly and so as soon as they can, they move to Australia or New Zealand. The NHS then scours the former colonies (third-world countries) for the dregs of so-called doctors who can increase their pay and living conditions ten-fold by moving to the UK. I wonder what their motives are?
The previous paragraph (above) is completely politically incorrect, but happens to be true, so I probably won't be able to say this, or if I am able to say this, my thread will be joined by socially posturing point-scorers on their high horses calling me a racist and a bigot.
I encourage them to ask themselves if a medical degree from a third-world country (with endemic corruption and institutionalised inequality) is worth the paper it is written on? My experience suggest it isn't.
Because of this merry-go-round of never seeing the same psychiatrist more than once, and being unable to effectively communicate with the majority of them, I have derived little to no benefit from my 'treatment'.
I now take three psychiatric medications and every three months I see a new psychiatrist who hasn't been bothered to read my medical notes (or hasn't had the time to) so that I can mime my concerns and questions to him or her and then he or she can ask me the same questions from a list someone wrote for them and then ignore or dismiss my answers to those questions.
I'm thinking of moving to Australia or New Zealand to see a real psychiatrist, but I haven't the means to do so, and Australia's and New Zealand's entirely legitimate and 'racist' immigration apparatus doesn't have mental patients at the top of their priority list.
Welcome to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in July 2016. (Is it still July?)
venusbluejeans
30-07-16, 13:26
Hiya Justinian and welcome to NMP :welcome:
Why not take a look at our articles on our home page, they contain a wealth of information and are a great starting place for your time on the forum.
I hope you find the as site helpful and informative as I have and that you get the help and support you need here and hope that you meet a few friends along the way :yesyes:
Hiya Justinian and welcome to NMP :welcome:
Why not take a look at our articles on our home page, they contain a wealth of information and are a great starting place for your time on the forum.
I hope you find the as site helpful and informative as I have and that you get the help and support you need here and hope that you meet a few friends along the way :yesyes:
Thanks. I'm sure I will like this new site and make many friends.
MyNameIsTerry
30-07-16, 14:55
I worked with a guy from India about 18 years ago and his dad was a doctor. When they came here his dad had to take non medical work and resit his qualifications before they would grant him a licence due to the difference in medical training that you mention.
There was a TV programme on last year about junior doctors in their F1-2 years. One was a doctor who had already practiced in Italy but was made to resit from part way. He was useless but the point is they made him train up to UK standards before certifying him fully qualified. They ended up knocking him back to F1.
Junior doctors have always had it rough, it was an accepted part of becoming a doctor. It's only really the government contract changes that seem to have truly brought it all to the current climax. Besides, you can't become a psychiatrist a a junior doctor anyway, you have to qualify as a doctor first and then go on to study it as since it's a specialism.
I wouldn't buy into the leftie posturing over Oz & NZ immigration policy, Justinian, it's not racist. They just don't let in any old Tom, Dick or Harry to let them sponge off their systems. Besides they turn down any white people too.
I wouldn't buy into the leftie posturing over Oz & NZ immigration policy, Justinian, it's not racist. They just don't let in any old Tom, Dick or Harry to let them sponge off their systems. Besides they turn down any white people too.
It's curious that I've never seen an NHS doctor from Canada, Australia or New Zealand. Never. Not once. Are we beating them back and turning them away?
Besides, you can't become a psychiatrist a[s] a junior doctor anyway, you have to qualify as a doctor first and then go on to study it as since it's a specialism.
Well, with respect, that isn't correct. Junior doctors HAVE ALREADY qualified as doctors. A "junior" doctor is a misleading term since any physician below a consultant, and working in a hospital, is technically a junior doctor. Some junior doctors are in their early forties.
MyNameIsTerry
31-07-16, 13:56
Well, with respect, that isn't correct. Junior doctors HAVE ALREADY qualified as doctors. A "junior" doctor is a misleading term since any physician below a consultant, and working in a hospital, is technically a junior doctor. Some junior doctors are in their early forties.
To me a junior doctor is one still in training, F graded. Once completed, I see them as doctors. Of course, they may still be juniors in rank one qualified. So, I take your point.
If you consider everyone below consultant a junior then that means GP's too since they have no specialism.
---------- Post added at 13:56 ---------- Previous post was at 13:53 ----------
It's curious that I've never seen an NHS doctor from Canada, Australia or New Zealand. Never. Not once. Are we beating them back and turning them away?
I seriously doubt we are turning doctors away. We let in plenty from these countries who are not so important to society.
Perhaps there are no incentives for them to come here? Perhaps they don't fancy being run off theirs feet if they are underneath a consultant grade and being a GP offers nothing to them either?
I have a chronic illness. I've seen a lot of Drs. I've also lived in different areas of the uk. Most of my drs have been British.
I've had 2 American Drs an India Dr, and an Irish Dr.
They were all doctors.
I have a chronic illness. I've seen a lot of Drs. I've also lived in different areas of the uk. Most of my drs have been British.
I've had 2 American Drs an India Dr, and an Irish Dr.
They were all doctors.
Lucky you. Few I've consulted had anything approaching competency in the English language. They may be excellent, top-rate doctors, but if he or she can't communicate with me then it makes no difference how good a doctor they are. I had an excellent Portuguese psychiatrist in hospital (basically 4 months locked up -- what a jolly that was!) who probably spoke better English than I did! He also must have skipped the arrogance classes at med school, too, as he talked to me man-to-man with no airs and graces and we even had a laugh occasionally. He prescribed me electroshock therapy (called ECT now), too, and that wiped out not only many memories but crucially left me with a permanent memory impairment, i.e. forming and recalling memories on a day-to-day basis. But he was so nice and down-to-earth that I forgave him the destruction of my livelihood and quality of life. How's that for bedside manner? Nice chap, he was.
---------- Post added at 16:36 ---------- Previous post was at 16:24 ----------
He had an ironic and wry sense of humour and we bonded in a doctor-patient way. Hospital wasn't bad, but, to give you a flavour or it, we had to pass through three locked doors (in single file and escorted by three nurses) down a corridor to get to the canteen. I affirm and believe that I was the only sane person in there. Others may disagree. I was bankrupt, too, which was the last straw which made me snap and have a 4-month holiday there with free board and lodging.
---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:36 ----------
To me a junior doctor is one still in training, F graded. Once completed, I see them as doctors. Of course, they may still be juniors in rank one qualified. So, I take your point.
If you consider everyone below consultant a junior then that means GP's too since they have no specialism.
---------- Post added at 13:56 ---------- Previous post was at 13:53 ----------
I seriously doubt we are turning doctors away. We let in plenty from these countries who are not so important to society.
Perhaps there are no incentives for them to come here? Perhaps they don't fancy being run off theirs feet if they are underneath a consultant grade and being a GP offers nothing to them either?
I was being sarcastic in the second instance that you quoted me. Doctors from other wealthy countries don't want to come here, so the NHS scrapes the bottom of the barrel for the dregs whose primary motivation is a ten-fold pay rise and a ten-fold increase in living standards in a peaceful and safe society. The exception, of course, is the doctor who arrived here because he lost his licence to practice in Germany. He then accidentally gave an elderly patient a lethal dose of diamorphine (aka heroin). He was told not to do that again and was allowed to keep 'practising medicine' here. If that isn't desperation then I don't know what is...
---------- Post added at 17:02 ---------- Previous post was at 16:41 ----------
I don't have much snow here. And gambling losses mean I may not see any more this summer...
Honestly I've no been lucky with Dr's but they have all spoken perfect English. A lot of them are arrogant aren't they!? Or patronizing. I really struggle to find Dr's or mental health professionals I feel comfortable talking to.
ECT? That's very extreme. My goodness.
When it comes to treatment it's beyond hard to find the right people and the right one. This place is pretty good for suggestions, I'm endlessly suggesting people have a browse on the success storied board, can be some real gems in there.
Justin,
I'm not even going to start to point out how generalising and prejudiced your views are. I really don't have the time. All I suggest is that you open your mind a little and think about things from a perspective other than yours. A few points to get you started:
Free health service vs insurance-based system. I know how the mentally ill are treated in other countries if they don't have insurance
Choice to work in other countries if it will improve you and your family's quality of life
Underestimating other countries' rigour of training
Underestimating the NHS's entry criteria
I'm sure you'll want to reply to say how idealistic I am and that I haven't experienced the same things you have. The latter may be true but I have experienced the worst of mental illness and the best of NHS care to get me to where I am today. Perhaps I've been lucky. However, I've been very persistent along the way and insisted on involvement in my own care. I know not everyone can do the same but the NHS does encourage this, where appropriate.
Whilst I recognise that the NHS needs more financial support, I wouldn't exchange our health system for any other in the world. I've experienced others and I know where I'd rather get treatment for a mental illness.
Take care
Pip
I think whilst Justinian's post might be automatically jumped on as prejudiced or racist (why is that card ALWAYS bandied about so readily??) I think that a lot of truth is spoken in his post, which may be hard for less cynical members to swallow, but truth it is.
Let's not talk about race or colour here, but let's just THINK about basic communication issues. I worked in the NHS for 10 years, 13 if you count my student years and training. I worked with good and bad doctors, good and bad staff in general, but what was very evident throughout was just how many staff - and let's include nurses in this too - did not have English as their first language, and how many really struggled to communicate not just well, but EFFECTIVELY and SYMPATHETICALLY with patients, wherever the patients happened to be from themselves!!
People may say, 'oh well, it doesn't affect the care', well sorry, yes it does. Communication is a huge part of healthcare. Lack of understanding can create massive issues in a patient/carer relationship. It can also be dangerous.
This isn't melodramatic. This is true.
I personally don't give a monkeys where someone is from, as long as their credentials, experience and knowledge is good and that they are able to communicate with the people they are treating. I lost count of the number of times a doctor OR a nurse left the room, and a patient asked me what they had said to them.
Whichever side of the left/right fence you sit, that just is NOT acceptable.
I agree with you, Debs. I know how much Justinian loves a bit of controversy but good communication is absolutely essential in all areas of healthcare and particularly in psychiatry. My daughter and I have both been in farcical situations where the consultant psychiatrist's command of English is completely inadequate and causes a complete breakdown in communication. This is frustrating for everyone and just shouldn't happen.
On one occasion when I was admitted to hospital the doctor's English was so poor that not one staff member was able to make out what he was trying to ask me. I'm not a racist but these doctors shouldn't be allowed to work in our hospitals if they only have a negligible command of English
Honestly I've no been lucky with Dr's but they have all spoken perfect English. A lot of them are arrogant aren't they!? Or patronizing. I really struggle to find Dr's or mental health professionals I feel comfortable talking to.
ECT? That's very extreme. My goodness.
When it comes to treatment it's beyond hard to find the right people and the right one. This place is pretty good for suggestions, I'm endlessly suggesting people have a browse on the success storied board, can be some real gems in there.
When the psychiatrist broached the subject of ECT he did so very delicately, almost meekly, like I was gonna freak out and scream the house down and say how barbaric it was, but, according to my notes and a hazy memory, I immediately said, even before he'd finished speaking, "Yes, I'm very keen to try that". He continued in a very grave and delicate way that there were risks and that complications could occur (death and whatnot), and I just said, "Yes, I don't mind. I'm keen to try it". He went on with this serious-faced kid-gloves approach and solemnly handed me an 'informed consent' form and I signed away my life. Happily. Anyway, I had a course of eight ECT treatments, twice a week, Tuesdays and Thursdays, for four weeks. After that, I asked for more and he blathered some nonsense which amounted to an accusation that I was using ECT as a medical-sponsored form of self-harm and he declined to continue ECT treatment. I'm not really sure about the precise technical reasons. I expect they're buried somewhere and they certainly weren't given to me. I just received an anodyne edited version. It was under general anaesthetic with about four medics present (and other attendants, pre- and post-care people) and then administered a general anaesthetic and then shoved a mouth guard in my gob (I didn't experience this, obviously, but they explained the procedure before I was knocked unconscious) and electrocuted my brain. I woke up seemingly instantly in a bed in another room with a nurse at my bedside ready to calm me down, tell me where I was and what had just happened, but that was entirely wasted as I just woke up slightly dizzy but not particularly disoriented and certainly not in a panic. I know I always took off my belt and shoes, socks and I think I emptied my pockets and took off my watch, etc., but I'm not really sure what else. I know I was wearing regular clothes (they didn't put me in those hospital pyjama things, anyway) during the procedures. I expect I removed my shirt what with all the things they stuck on me with wires here and there. It was a jolly and I always looked forward to my next brain electrocution. My 'vital signs' were normal before I was wheeled into the ECT Suite (which wasn't signposted anywhere lest the words spook patients or, more probably, visitors to the complex). They don't do psychosurgery anymore in the UK, probably because it was barbaric and its practitioners were quacks with no idea what they were doing nor any theory even to start with. Psychosurgery just turned patients into potatoes which I suppose is one way of 'curing' mental distress, but then it's a little like curing mental illness by killing the patient. You can cure any illness by killing the patient. You can cure a broken leg by killing the patient. For these reasons, lobotomies/leucotomies never really took off...
---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:26 ----------
I agree with you, Debs. I know how much Justinian loves a bit of controversy but good communication is absolutely essential in all areas of healthcare and particularly in psychiatry. My daughter and I have both been in farcical situations where the consultant psychiatrist's command of English is completely inadequate and causes a complete breakdown in communication. This is frustrating for everyone and just shouldn't happen.
On one occasion when I was admitted to hospital the doctor's English was so poor that not one staff member was able to make out what he was trying to ask me. I'm not a racist but these doctors shouldn't be allowed to work in our hospitals if they only have a negligible command of English
Well said. Personal experience of doctors' language inadequacies isn't racism. In any case, I liked the Portuguese and he was a 'swarthy foreigner'... In any case, I'd have no problem WHATSOEVER dealing with a black, brown, green, or red British person who speaks English like a native. No problem whatsoever. My issue is COMMUNICATION, not skin colour or ethnicity.
No one has thrown the race card out there have they? I don't think anyone had suggested that bad communication between Dr and patient is fine either.
I would imagine the main issue people had was with the language used. Which I think is fair enough, be them left or right.
I think people should be able to say what they like on here be it left or right. But in doing so it's going to attract those who disagree.
Gets the blood pumping. It's probably good for you.
---------- Post added at 20:44 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------
Wow that is very dark. Thank you for sharing, you paint quite the picture. You could write a book!
It's actually shocking how often I hear stories about medical things that have little to no backing. Then you have "hollistic" medicines which the NHS use that have high success rates but are never officially researched and as such, remain underfunded and not widely known.
I thought they still did ECT, glad they don't.
I think whilst Justinian's post might be automatically jumped on as prejudiced or racist (why is that card ALWAYS bandied about so readily??) I think that a lot of truth is spoken in his post, which may be hard for less cynical members to swallow, but truth it is.
Let's not talk about race or colour here, but let's just THINK about basic communication issues. I worked in the NHS for 10 years, 13 if you count my student years and training. I worked with good and bad doctors, good and bad staff in general, but what was very evident throughout was just how many staff - and let's include nurses in this too - did not have English as their first language, and how many really struggled to communicate not just well, but EFFECTIVELY and SYMPATHETICALLY with patients, wherever the patients happened to be from themselves!!
People may say, 'oh well, it doesn't affect the care', well sorry, yes it does. Communication is a huge part of healthcare. Lack of understanding can create massive issues in a patient/carer relationship. It can also be dangerous.
This isn't melodramatic. This is true.
I personally don't give a monkeys where someone is from, as long as their credentials, experience and knowledge is good and that they are able to communicate with the people they are treating. I lost count of the number of times a doctor OR a nurse left the room, and a patient asked me what they had said to them.
Whichever side of the left/right fence you sit, that just is NOT acceptable.
Hear! Hear! I agree 100%. I would have no issue dealing with a black person whose mother tongue is English. I wouldn't even notice his or her colour nor even particularly remember it. There would be no reason to. And a foreigner who speaks fluent English, not holiday English or 'conversational' English. Fluent is the word.
---------- Post added at 20:54 ---------- Previous post was at 20:46 ----------
No one has thrown the race card out there have they? I don't think anyone had suggested that bad communication between Dr and patient is fine either.
I would imagine the main issue people had was with the language used. Which I think is fair enough, be them left or right.
I think people should be able to say what they like on here be it left or right. But in doing so it's going to attract those who disagree.
Gets the blood pumping. It's probably good for you.
---------- Post added at 20:44 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------
Wow that is very dark. Thank you for sharing, you paint quite the picture. You could write a book!
It's actually shocking how often I hear stories about medical things that have little to no backing. Then you have "hollistic" medicines which the NHS use that have high success rates but are never officially researched and as such, remain underfunded and not widely known.
I thought they still did ECT, glad they don't.
No, they do still do ECT. They don't do psychiatric brain surgery (commonly, and erroneously, known as lobotomies), but they still do neurological brain surgery. Neurology is the medical discipline concerned with brain injuries and psychiatry is the pseudo-medical discipline of mind injuries (mental illnesses). I did indeed have ECT in hospital in 2014.
I have not read this whole thread, but ECT is still done. It is MUCH different than it used to be and actually can be effective, although there are definitely risks as well. In my experience, it is really used as a last resort when medications have been tried repeatedly, psychotherapy, etc and symptoms are unrelenting.
I'm not even going to start to point out how generalising and prejudiced your views are.
And I'm not "even going" to read the rest of your post. (And you did go on to point out how "generalising and prejudiced" you think my views are.) Read my post properly and then read several other posts from "prejudiced" people who agree with me, one of whom worked in the NHS for 13 years and another who has similar communication problems with doctors who can't speak English beyond ordering a cup of tea and thanking the waiter and then asking where the tourist information office is. Don't insult me with ignorant accusations, please, and I'll afford you the same courtesy. Oh and please apologise to debs71 and pulisa who you just accused of being prejudiced. I don't need or require an apology.
My gripe is purely from the communication difficulties arising when a doctor doesn't have a working knowledge of the English language. This happens across all disciplines in healthcare-within mental health it can be catastrophic due to the nature of the condition.
I've just been through a year-long safeguarding procedure against a flagship care home where my Father was a temporary resident. Major communication difficulties with language resulted in a tragic outcome for my Father. I'm not prejudiced but my experiences with this have been bad.
I have not read this whole thread, but ECT is still done. It is MUCH different than it used to be and actually can be effective, although there are definitely risks as well. In my experience, it is really used as a last resort when medications have been tried repeatedly, psychotherapy, etc and symptoms are unrelenting.
To the contrary, the "much different than it used to be" propaganda has been comprehensively debunked by intelligent examination of the facts by curious minds. That phrase that you used and that I quoted is almost word-for-word organised psychiatry's PR 'spin' to sell ECT. (There are too many conflicts of interests between influential psychiatrists and ECT machine manufacturers to bore everyone with, too.) I think what that phrase really means is that ECT is now less traumatic for people watching ECT procedures "than it used to be". I presume you think that general anaesthesia and muscle relaxants has made it 'nicer' and more humane for the patient? No more broken bones and no experiencing pain and terror due to being conscious during the procedure? Well, yes and no. It's just not that simple. It has been known for a long time (but curiously never publicised by organised psychiatry...) that muscle relaxants and general anaesthesia actually increase the seizure threshold and this means that a higher voltage and a longer discharge are needed to induce a seizure than in the 'barbaric past'. More electricity and for a longer period of time is better? It's more humane? Tell that to the thousands of 'ECT survivors' whose brains have been damaged (corroborated by brain scans in clinical trials), whose memories have been wiped and who now have difficulty in forming new memories. What is a life if it isn't memories? If you can't remember your past... then did you really live your past or has that been stolen? What is a person but a long interconnected series of memories forming the chronology of their life? Without a past and an impaired present, who is this person after 'modern' ECT procedures?
---------- Post added at 22:20 ---------- Previous post was at 22:13 ----------
My gripe is purely from the communication difficulties arising when a doctor doesn't have a working knowledge of the English language. This happens across all disciplines in healthcare-within mental health it can be catastrophic due to the nature of the condition.
I've just been through a year-long safeguarding procedure against a flagship care home where my Father was a temporary resident. Major communication difficulties with language resulted in a tragic outcome for my Father. I'm not prejudiced but my experiences with this have been bad.
Pipkin thinks you are a racist bigot. That helps him sleep at night.
---------- Post added at 22:22 ---------- Previous post was at 22:20 ----------
No hard feelings, Pipkin. I disagree with your arguments, I don't dislike you personally.
And I'm not "even going" to read the rest of your post. (And you did go on to point out how "generalising and prejudiced" you think my views are.) Read my post properly and then read several other posts from "prejudiced" people who agree with me, one of whom worked in the NHS for 13 years and another who has similar communication problems with doctors who can't speak English beyond ordering a cup of tea and thanking the waiter and then asking where the tourist information office is. Don't insult me with ignorant accusations, please, and I'll afford you the same courtesy. Oh and please apologise to debs71 and pulisa who you just accused of being prejudiced. I don't need or require an apology.
1) I don't believe I did actually point out why I believe your post to be generalising. I just gave a few points to consider.
2) I didn't call you or anyone else prejudiced. I said your comments were.
3) Not funny. Again generalising around people's level of English. I agree that it's true in some cases and can be a problem but is it necessary to be so deriding to people who have travelled to this country to fill vacancies which would otherwise leave us with little or no service? You can point out the facts as you see them without being rude to people. Have you considered that there are non-English speakers on this forum? Your comments will hardly make them feel welcome.
4) No ignorant accusations from me. Just opinions.
5) I don't recall calling anyone prejudiced. As I have already said, I just pointed out that I consider (and continue to consider) your comments to be generalising and prejudiced.
6) Indeed, I don't owe you an apology. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. As such, you can air your views and I can point out why I don't agree. I don't need or require (tautological) an apology either.
Pip
MyNameIsTerry
01-08-16, 05:32
I was being sarcastic in the second instance that you quoted me. Doctors from other wealthy countries don't want to come here, so the NHS scrapes the bottom of the barrel for the dregs whose primary motivation is a ten-fold pay rise and a ten-fold increase in living standards in a peaceful and safe society. The exception, of course, is the doctor who arrived here because he lost his licence to practice in Germany. He then accidentally gave an elderly patient a lethal dose of diamorphine (aka heroin). He was told not to do that again and was allowed to keep 'practising medicine' here. If that isn't desperation then I don't know what is...
Fair enough, sarcasm doesn't always come across so I didn't see it.
One of the GP's at my surgery is Spanish. So, not all are coming here because they are the exception like the German doctor you mention.
To be honest though, he has a very thick accent and mumbles so he was difficult to understand.
I totally agree on the point made by Debs & pulisa about being able to speak English. It's not racist to ask for the ability to speak the language in a role that includes communication. Only Guardian readers & Corbynistas will jump up & down about that and probably tell us we should learn 50 different languages ourselves to converse with them! :doh: SJW's are like that.
You don't have to have English as a first language, just be able to speak it well enough to do the job. Other than that, I want competence in a doctor.
I disagree that other countries and their training are a problem since they can't get licenced, to my knowledge, without ensuring their standard of training matches ours. Have standards slipped? Or more accurately been "relaxed" to allow them to hit their quotas? :winks: I don't know.
---------- Post added at 05:08 ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 ----------
They don't do psychosurgery anymore in the UK, probably because it was barbaric and its practitioners were quacks with no idea what they were doing nor any theory even to start with. Psychosurgery just turned patients into potatoes which I suppose is one way of 'curing' mental distress, but then it's a little like curing mental illness by killing the patient. You can cure any illness by killing the patient. You can cure a broken leg by killing the patient. For these reasons, lobotomies/leucotomies never really took off...
Yes, they do.
http://ocduk.org/neurosurgery
There are now only two remaining NMD centres in the UK, Dundee and Cardiff. The University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff and in Dundee the service is based at Ninewells Hospital which has adopted the title of an Advanced Interventions Service (AIS) to emphasise that neurosurgical treatments are only one component of a comprehensive service delivery that also includes medication and specialist psychological therapies.
I remember a new member in Italy talking about having treatment with Gamma Knife. This seems like a new thing:
http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182747
---------- Post added at 05:14 ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 ----------
Wow that is very dark. Thank you for sharing, you paint quite the picture. You could write a book!
It's actually shocking how often I hear stories about medical things that have little to no backing. Then you have "hollistic" medicines which the NHS use that have high success rates but are never officially researched and as such, remain underfunded and not widely known.
I thought they still did ECT, glad they don't.
HJ,
Yes, they still do ECT and it's recommended as a possible treatment.
https://www.nice.org.uk/Guidance/TA59
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Depression/Pages/Treatment.aspx
Electric shock treatment
Sometimes electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) may be recommended if you have severe depression and other treatments, including antidepressants, haven't worked.
During ECT, you'll first be given an anaesthetic and medication to relax your muscles. Then you'll receive an electrical "shock" to your brain through electrodes placed on your head.
You may be given a series of ECT sessions. It is usually given twice a week for three to six weeks.
For most people, ECT is good for relieving severe depression, but the beneficial effect tends to wear off after several months.
Some people get unpleasant side effects, including short-term headaches, memory problems, nausea and muscle aches.
Read more information about electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) on the Mind website.
http://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/drugs-and-treatments/electroconvulsive-therapy-ect/#.V57LkY-cHIU
Personal experiences
People’s experience of ECT varies enormously. Some people find it the most useful treatment they have had, and would ask for it again if they needed treatment for depression. Others feel violated by it, and would do anything to avoid having it again.
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/treatmentswellbeing/ect.aspx
One famous example is Beverly Callard.
---------- Post added at 05:17 ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 ----------
No one has thrown the race card out there have they? I don't think anyone had suggested that bad communication between Dr and patient is fine either.
I would imagine the main issue people had was with the language used. Which I think is fair enough, be them left or right.
I think people should be able to say what they like on here be it left or right. But in doing so it's going to attract those who disagree.
Gets the blood pumping. It's probably good for you.
I think it was generalisations and use of language. Regardless, Justinian needs to be aware that this can be perceived a certain way whether he intended it to be or not.
Pip has mentioned about the standards, as have I. Without understanding this and factoring it in, unless it has been, it could be considered ignorance.
I see no issue in discussion but labelling entire countries is where you start to enter dodgy ground.
---------- Post added at 05:24 ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 ----------
Pipkin thinks you are a racist bigot. That helps him sleep at night.
---------- Post added at 22:22 ---------- Previous post was at 22:20 ----------
No hard feelings, Pipkin. I disagree with your arguments, I don't dislike you personally.
No, Pip didn't call pulisa a racist bigot at all - YOU added that to attempt to cause a problem between pulisa & Pip. I would suggest that is a discussion between the two of you without dragging others unwillingly into it.
Pulisa merely made the point that English speaking staff are necessary in an English speaking country.
This isn't confined to the UK though, our doctors work in countries without knowing the language too. They tend to be filling gaps in where they can't get help so must accept it on face value whereas we are recruiting for positions we can afford to be more choosey about when it comes to making demands on the applicants.
---------- Post added at 05:32 ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 ----------
And I'm not "even going" to read the rest of your post. (And you did go on to point out how "generalising and prejudiced" you think my views are.) Read my post properly and then read several other posts from "prejudiced" people who agree with me, one of whom worked in the NHS for 13 years and another who has similar communication problems with doctors who can't speak English beyond ordering a cup of tea and thanking the waiter and then asking where the tourist information office is. Don't insult me with ignorant accusations, please, and I'll afford you the same courtesy. Oh and please apologise to debs71 and pulisa who you just accused of being prejudiced. I don't need or require an apology.
Pip has no need to apologise to Debs & pulisa. They made respectful points about an issue without the need to generalise about whole countries. Their posts in no way mirror yours.
Debs said this:
Let's not talk about race or colour here, but let's just THINK about basic communication issues.
That's quite valid. It doesn't generalise about nations, it raises the issue purely of having the language skills needed for the environment. No mention of comments aimed at the countries they are from and YOU added the part about the cup of tea, the waiter and tourist board to add more effect to your statements.
Why not make your points in a valid & constructive way without resorting to the remarks about peoples countries? That way we can have a debate about it without the possibility of offence being caused.
Like Pip says, this is an international website. We all want to feel included on here.
...and no I'm not on the left, I can't stand the loony left. :noangel:
Pipkin thinks you are a racist bigot. That helps him sleep at night.
---------- Post added at 22:22 ---------- Previous post was at 22:20 ----------
No hard feelings, Pipkin. I disagree with your arguments, I don't dislike you personally.
Tut tut Justin. You know perfectly well that I didn't call anyone racist or a bigot, not least Pulisa whom I have a lot of respect for. If you're looking to cause tension between other members, you're barking up the wrong tree with me.
As I said, you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to respond. Part of my role here is to ensure posts are balanced and that all members are treated fairly and equally. However, posting 'no hard feelings' doesn't allow you to be rude to people.
Pip
To Terry and Pipkin,
I didn't say Pipkin called debs71 or pulisa "prejudiced" or "bigots", but that he thinks they are.
It seems you are getting all het up by a straw man you built.
So how is it that they make the same points as me, and indeed say that they agree with me, and that only I am a prejudiced bigot?
That takes some warped logic.
Congratulations.
---------- Post added at 20:41 ---------- Previous post was at 20:29 ----------
1) I don't believe I did actually point out why I believe your post to be generalising. I just gave a few points to consider.
2) I didn't call you or anyone else prejudiced. I said your comments were.
3) Not funny. Again generalising around people's level of English. I agree that it's true in some cases and can be a problem but is it necessary to be so deriding to people who have travelled to this country to fill vacancies which would otherwise leave us with little or no service? You can point out the facts as you see them without being rude to people. Have you considered that there are non-English speakers on this forum? Your comments will hardly make them feel welcome.
4) No ignorant accusations from me. Just opinions.
5) I don't recall calling anyone prejudiced. As I have already said, I just pointed out that I consider (and continue to consider) your comments to be generalising and prejudiced.
6) Indeed, I don't owe you an apology. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. As such, you can air your views and I can point out why I don't agree. I don't need or require (tautological) an apology either.
Pip
This is hilarious!
2 -- Does this mean a non-prejudiced person makes prejudiced comments? Is it 1984?
3 -- I'm "generalising", as I've said multiple times here, about the doctors that I have consulted. This is called personal experience.
"people who have travelled to this country to fill vacancies which would otherwise leave us with little or no service"
Ha! People who can't communicate are filling vacancies and endangering patients' lives by being unable to communicate effectively with the patients. Several doctors who have been present during my treatment hampered my treatment and a nurse had to translate or do his job for him while he stood there and watched.
5 -- See point 2
For the record, you'll see that I have never called anyone a 'bigot' and, clearly, someone can make prejudiced comments without being prejudiced. The latter is unlikely but I was correcting as a matter of accuracy. Nonetheless, you have certainly reinforced my opinion with your statement about endangering patients' lives. It's doubtless true on occasion, just as the same could be said for inept doctors of any background. However, balance is key to an evidenced-based discussion. Consider 'misleading vividness'.
No, I don't think this it is 'hilarious' and neither do I believe that as I don't agree with you, my logic must be 'warped'. I suggest you consider that there are valid opinions other than your own and that you accept this with a little more maturity. As I've consistently said, you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to disagree.
Enough said. I'm clearly wasting my time trying to make my point and you're obviously enjoying the discussion more than I am. I prefer discussions of mutual respect, even when two parties disagree.
Pip
MyNameIsTerry
02-08-16, 22:48
I don't recall calling you a prejudiced bigot, Justinian. Again, only you are adding that. I think you can make your point without certain comments that generalise other nations. Personal experience seldom translates to everything and it just cheapens valid points which were later discussed.
For the record, you'll see that I have never called anyone a 'bigot' and, clearly, someone can make prejudiced comments without being prejudiced. The latter is unlikely but I was correcting as a matter of accuracy. Nonetheless, you have certainly reinforced my opinion with your statement about endangering patients' lives. It's doubtless true on occasion, just as the same could be said for inept doctors of any background. However, balance is key to an evidenced-based discussion. Consider 'misleading vividness'.
You a David Brent fan? Gervais's famous creation was a p**s-take about people like you. Haha! Btw, I didn't read the rest of your post. :-)
You a David Brent fan? Gervais's famous creation was a p**s-take about people like you. Haha! Btw, I didn't read the rest of your post. :-)
Thanks for the confirmation of my opinion that you lack respect and maturity. I knew I was a good judge of character.
Pip
Thanks for the confirmation of my opinion that you lack respect and maturity. I knew I was a good judge of character.
Pip
"Never judge a man till you have walked a mile in his shoes"
-- Dolly Parton
"Never judge a man till you have walked a mile in his shoes"
-- Dolly Parton
Ditto.
And again, thanks for the confirmation of my opinion that you lack respect and maturity. I knew I was a good judge of character.
Pip
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