Intrusive thoughts vs real thoughts

[Shih tzu lover]

Hi. I'm new to this forum, and I suffer from intrusive thoughts. I have not yet been diagnosed with any disorders. Sometimes I doubt that my thoughts are intrusive. How do you tell the difference between intrusive thoughts and real thoughts? Is it possible to suffer from intrusive thoughts without any disorders? Sometimes I feel like I actually want to act out these thoughts. Are intrusive thoughts reasonless or do we have a reason for why we want to act out these thoughts? What causes these thoughts?

[hanshan]

Intrusive thoughts feel like they don't fit with who you think you are. Most people have this kind of thought from time to time, but they can put it out of their mind and soon forget they ever had it.

Yes, you can have intrusive thoughts without other disorders. Feeling that you want to act out an intrusive thought is frightening, but if you feel it is an intrusive thought, you won't act on it - it just isn't you.

Nobody knows for sure why intrusive thoughts occur. For the moment, be assured that they are not from the "you" that you know yourself to be.

If the thoughts keep coming back and are disturbing to you, you should seek some help from a doctor or counsellor.

[Shih tzu lover]

My intrusive thoughts started differently that others. I deliberately thought of myself killing a loved one, with no intention of doing it, but then I felt the urge to do it. Does this still count?

[hanshan]

I think that counts. Thinking of killing a loved one is a common intrusive thought, and so is the urge to do it. It is because it is a loved one that makes it irrational, frightening and an intrusion on who you are.

[MyNameIsTerry]

I've typed a lot of this up so many times on the OCD board but I've put quite a lot in this one which may help you:

http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=184847

Intrusive thoughts have been proven in studies to be experienced by all people. So, because of this they can also be experienced with any anxiety disorder. When they are the predominant issue, a diagnosis of OCD may be made.

I suggest you read about them. I good place in the US is Steve Seay's articles. He is a practicing licenced psychologist who treats OCD and his articles are excellent.

Intrusive thoughts can come on their own or they can be triggered. They will appear to pop into your mind out of nowhere. That's the normal description of an intrusive thoughts, that and that they are unpleasant. As hanshan also mentioned, they are "ego dystonic", the opposite of true character & beliefs and this is why you react with revulsion to them. The irony is, that will keep them reinforced and going and freeing yourself of them means changing that reaction as I will have covered in that other thread.

Something that is seem as a compulsion in OCD is "testing" and this differs to the usual cycle whereby a compulsion is an action following. With this the sufferer attempts to trigger their thoughts to check they react with revulsion. I've covered this in the other thread too.

So, were you trying to test yourself when you consciously considered violence?

I would say that it's not even worth analysing the origin, you may never find it. You don't need to know that to recover from them. The thing that matters is that you are not what you fear you may be, you are a normal balanced person because truly violent people don't worry about thoughts like this or acting them out - and I've known people like that and anxiety was certainly not an issue for them. It's not a judgement of your character, the fact you react with revulsion was your character...and this can change as you work through them as explained in that other thread so please don't worry if you because desensitised to them either. Facts in the medical world prove it's extremely rare for anyone to act out these thoughts but instead you will likely act out some level of compulsion instead (which won't be violent at all, it's often a covert or mental compulsion).

Intrusive thoughts can come in different form too. You can have thoughts, imagery, urges or a combination. I've had all of those and I've beaten my intrusive thoughts twice now.

[Shih tzu lover]

Triggered?

[MyNameIsTerry]

Triggered?

The subconscious is constantly monitoring what we experience and it makes checks to memory in case something is relevant. So, there can be a trigger in some cases like seeing something that is in some way a reminder of the thought.

A good example of this is how we may have a panic attack in the same place. Memory has recorded such a strong fearful experience and it can be triggered again.

Does that make sense? I don't mean "caused by", just that the subconscious has made some sort of link, often subtle or based on a poor connection.

Other forms of memory phenomena work like this such as the emerging accepted research into Mind Pops. These are without the horrible subjects found in intrusive thoughts but work in the way I've just described.

[Shih tzu lover]

The tests you mentioned started my intrusive thoughts. I felt pleasure when seeing someone in a movie die, so I felt guilty. To get rid of the guilt, I decided to "test" myself, like you mentioned. I deliberately thought of the worst thing a person could do and thought of myself doing it. Then I felt the urge to do it.

[hanshan]

Unfortunately, somewhere in the human subconscious is a fascination with death and destruction - perhaps it is part of our survival mechanism. Some movies focus on this with guns, bombs, knives killing people, aliens threatening the entire human race ... Many people enjoy this without feeling guilty - if they do they tell themselves that it is just a movie.

So if you enjoyed a movie with killing in it doesn't make you a potential murderer, and there is no need to devise tests for yourself. At some stage you will have to ask yourself whether you really want to watch that sort of movie, but you have time for that, and it's not such a scary decision.

[Shih tzu lover]

How do I tell the difference between my thoughts and desires? Sometimes I feel like I actually want to act out the thought.

---------- Post added at 23:06 ---------- Previous post was at 22:43 ----------

Also, can intrusive thoughts start like the way I mentioned above, by testing. I keep doubting these are intrusive thoughts.

[hanshan]

Many intrusive thoughts have a desire component, to do something you feel is wrong, so you don't need to distinguish between intrusive thoughts and desires - they are the same.

Terry is probably the best person to comment on this, but testing is probably part of the whole intrusive thought complex.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Many intrusive thoughts have a desire component, to do something you feel is wrong, so you don't need to distinguish between intrusive thoughts and desires - they are the same.

Terry is probably the best person to comment on this, but testing is probably part of the whole intrusive thought complex.

We have to be careful with desires, hanshan. Intrusive thoughts are by their nature ego dystonic so they clash with out internal belief systems. A good example is POCD, no POCD sufferer has a desire to want to molest a child. I think what you said about our views of violence are correct and we even daydream about being the hero in the film which includes potentially graphic violence but we see it as fantasy and don't engage in the self analysis that comes with these Pure O themes. People who have problems with these forms of OCD start to question everything like this and wonder if the "real them" is starting to seep out and their lifelong self has been a falsehood.

Something interesting with sexual themes in intrusive thoughts (e.g. molestation, rape, forms of sexual conduct regarded as immoral by the sufferer, etc) is that the area of the brain that influences sexual response is upstream of the process that would consciously react to these thoughts with disgust. Hence it's well known that sufferers can have a sexual response that includes erection, lubrication increase in women, and sufferers are even known to masturbate to relieve themselves from these uncomfortable feelings. You can image how this leads to further guilt, self analysis, incorrect self confirmation, depression, etc.

And danger, violence, etc can be linked to arousal and excitement. Even pain, just look at BDSM.

So, it can be a bit of a minefield for the OCD sufferer to navigate and this is why it is so important to read about these themes otherwise you just make incorrect conclusions about what you are experiencing. The amount of times I spoken to people who have concluded they are evil or potentially dangerous because they react with a normal bodily function to an inappropriate thought, well if I had a £1 for each time...as the saying goes.

---------- Post added at 05:47 ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 ----------


The tests you mentioned started my intrusive thoughts. I felt pleasure when seeing someone in a movie die, so I felt guilty. To get rid of the guilt, I decided to "test" myself, like you mentioned. I deliberately thought of the worst thing a person could do and thought of myself doing it. Then I felt the urge to do it.

So, you engaged in a compulsion (a mental or covert compulsion, as they are called) to create a scenario in your head to test your reaction. Your reaction was an urge to do what was in the thought BUT what came after that? That urge was nothing more an intrusive thought popping up in response to a trigger, it's exactly how the mind works whether something horrible or something nice.

What came next? Did you feel anxious? Did you feel guilty?

I'm not condoning "testing" by the way, I was just explaining that OCD sufferers are known to do it. In CBT, a therapist would organise a Behavioural Experiment to test a belief and this is slightly different because you are being guided in some way (so there is a level of control by the therapist) and you record your feelings, conclusions, etc. Then you discuss it all with the therapist. This comes to something positive, "testing" is only aimed at reproducing a fear response hence it's compulsion.

---------- Post added at 06:01 ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 ----------


How do I tell the difference between my thoughts and desires? Sometimes I feel like I actually want to act out the thought.

---------- Post added at 23:06 ---------- Previous post was at 22:43 ----------

Also, can intrusive thoughts start like the way I mentioned above, by testing. I keep doubting these are intrusive thoughts.

This happens, it's the urges that are known with intrusive thoughts. That doesn't mean you want to act them out, just that you feel like you could.

So, what is the difference? It's quite simple, why are you on an anxiety sight asking for help with thoughts you are afraid of? Bare in mind all people can experience intrusive thoughts. Have you ever heard of seriously violent people fearing such thoughts and worrying so much they search out reasoning for them?

I've known plenty of people on here saying all the same as you and they are lovely people who are the total opposite. If you read Steve Seay's articles he makes the point that the people with such violent thoughts are some of the nicest people he has ever met and he asks "I wonder why that is?". What he means is, these people are reacting this way because their internal belief systems are clashing. That's the point with intrusive thoughts, the subconscious is making checks to what is considered "appropriate" and saying "Ok conscious mind, I've checked and non of this matches to anything appropriate so here is all the date, please tell me what to do with it". That's all it is. When you react with fear, you reinforce the importance of it. Have a look at this from the experts:

http://psychology.tools/intrusive-th...-metaphor.html

That's exactly what they say. This is why learning not to react with fear is so important and why acceptance based strategies work really well with intrusive thoughts.

Here is the cognitive model for OCD:

http://psychology.tools/cognitive-model-of-ocd.html

There can be a trigger to them. "Testing" is clearly a trigger that you consciously engage in, just without realising it's a negative behaviour. But there can be many triggers e.g. the action films hanshan mentioned. You could see an image and your subconscious sees this too. The subconscious however is much more powerful in that it will see everything on that screen, not just the bits you are are consciously focussing on and it will check them looking for internal mechanisms to apply e.g. it's just fantasy = ok, nothing to be done with it. If an image contains something that can be partially linked to your intrusive theme, and the subconscious does a lot of partial linking to then pass it to the conscious mind for a decision, then it will flag up the link asking you what to do. If you react with fear, it will learn to associate fear with it. If you literally go "meh", it will do little with it knowing it's not important to the conscious mind, just like the example above by the experts.

You are going to doubt these are intrusive thoughts. Don't be surprised to find yourself worrying you are turning into a monster or that this the "real you" coming out and the rest of your personality is a fake. That's just how the thought processes go with such self analysis, the conscious mind is trying analyse it and come up with "possibilities". That is a world away from what is real, it's just you working through to determine what is garbage and what could be a risk. If you treat such things as "options" and treat them dispassionately, you will not create yourself more problems with anxiety. This is hard though, its something you learn to do through recovery so don't worry about such things taking time.

[Shih tzu lover]

Thank you.

[LG18]

One thing I will say about intrusive thoughts and OCD, is that asking that very question is part of the problem.
Dealing with the uncertainty and being able to tolerate it is how you start to squash your OCD.

[Shih tzu lover]

One more thing. I feel pleasure when the intrusive thought comes to me when I feel upset with the person I have the urge to kill.

---------- Post added at 01:30 ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 ----------

Doesn't pleasure mean it's dangerous?