Very interesting video on the impact of medications

[lifeofbrian]

An interesting video.

https://youtu.be/eOScYBwMyAA

Sources: https://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/30446-notes-to-there-is-no-such-thing-as-mental-illness/

[panic_down_under]

Sigh! :weep:

Googling the presenter: Stefan Molyneux may be instructive

Apparently, the cause of all of humanity's problems is parents and siblings and the the solution (http://www.fdrliberated.com/foundation-freedomain-radio/) is to run away from home as soon as you can fend for yourself and never speak to any of them again.

[Magic]

Could not be bothered to listen to all of it as I was falling asleep:shrug:

[lifeofbrian]

Did you listen to the facts and check the sources? I'd like to know what you think about them, I know you're someone that likes to research. I can sit and chat about feelings and anxiety all day, but no nothing about it, yet ask me about music and playing guitar, I used to teach a 60 year old guitarist with 30 years experience and I could teach him new thing's. Just because Stefan Molyneux may have strange ideas on some things that doesn't mean that his research and thoughts on other subjects are wrong. As far as the leaving your parents thing, every video I've ever seen of his where he talks about parenting, he talks about the importance or having both parents there for the child, so I don't know about that claim, which I have seen before.


Sigh! :weep:

Googling the presenter: Stefan Molyneux may be instructive

Apparently, the cause of all of humanity's problems is parents and siblings and the the solution (http://www.fdrliberated.com/foundation-freedomain-radio/) is run away from home as soon as you can fend for yourself and never speak to any of them again.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Sigh! :weep:

Googling the presenter: Stefan Molyneux may be instructive

Apparently, the cause of all of humanity's problems is parents and siblings and the the solution (http://www.fdrliberated.com/foundation-freedomain-radio/) is to run away from home as soon as you can fend for yourself and never speak to any of them again.

So, in line with any cult leader then?

---------- Post added at 03:58 ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 ----------


As far as the leaving your parents thing, every video I've ever seen of his where he talks about parenting, he talks about the importance or having both parents there for the child, so I don't know about that claim, which I have seen before.


A quick Wiki straight away gives details of his spouse being disciplined for using his material in sessions and several investigations into potential cult activity.

I'm extremely wary of these types of people coming into contact with those with mental health disorders.

What exactly are you interested in? If there are interesting points, raise them for discussion and there may be merit because it agrees with credible professionals. However, that doesn't validate the guy, it's important to remember that.

[panic_down_under]

Okay, some points. I stopped about 12 minutes in because there is only so much nonsense I can take at one sitting.


Psych drugs cause addiction, violence and homicide.

Utter male bovine manure on all three counts. Dependence is not addiction and the mentally ill are far more likely to be victims of violence and murder than perpetrators.


Growth of antidepressant use.

Yes, whenever effective drugs for a condition become available doctors will start prescribing them... shock...horror!!! Are they sometimes used inappropriately, yes. So is aspirin.

Then a series of quotes about the 'low serotonin' hypothesis which has been long discredited. From memory the first paper questioning it was published just before Prozac hit pharmacy shelves around 1988. It is merely a convenient analogy that patients can understand. And antidepressants do change brain serotonin and/or noradrenaline/norepinephrine and/or dopamine levels (depending on the type of antidepressant). See the papers referenced in my Serotonin: the chemical imbalance myth (http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?t=193671) post. But this may be a product of the therapeutic response, not its cause.


"... modern psychiatry has yet to convincingly prove the genetic/biological cause of any single mental illness ... Patients [have] been diagnosed with 'chemical imbalances' despite the fact that no test exists to support such a claim, and ... there is no real conception of what a correct chemical balance would look like."

Dr David Kaiser Psychiatric Times (1996, Vol. XIII, Issue 12) (http://www.bible.ca/psychiatry/david-kaiser-against-biologic-psychiatry-psychiatric-times-december-dec-1996-vol-xiii-issue-12.htm)

Firstly, note the date, 1996. Two to three years before the first papers on the currently accepted hippocampal neurogenesis theory for depression were published (that neurogenesis even occurred in the adult brain was only (re)discovered in the 1980s - see this article ('http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_reinvention_of_the_self/?page=all&p=y") about one of its rediscoverers, Elizabeth Gould).

And of course the single quote used only tells part of the story because Kaiser also says in the article:

Biologic psychiatry has had its successes, particularly with recent antidepressants like Prozac and newer antipsychotic medications such as Clozaril. Medications can effectively improve depression, relieve severe anxiety, stabilize serious mood swings and lessen psychotic symptoms. These successes are real in that they improve the quality of life of patients who are genuinely suffering.

Dr Ron Leifer, again a quotation from the mid 1990s by an old time psychiatrist. He published in the 1960s and 1970 before reappearing as a co author in a 2001 paper/rant (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15278978). It seems to ignore that the mentally ill have been involuntarily incarcerated for centuries, indeed millennia, and that thanks almost exclusively to psychiatric medications this is now much less common and of short duration. People aren't locked away in asylums for years, all too often for life, as they were until 50 to 60 years ago.

Dr Joseph Glenmullen, a quote from his book Prozac Backlash published in 2000, so again before hippocampal neurogenesis became mainstream. In it he makes it clear he regularly prescribes psych meds.

And so it goes on, but life is short and I have better things to do with my time. But I urge you to research each point raised yourself.

To reiterate an earlier point, in almost every country with an effective health system there are now far fewer mental hospitals than there were only 50-60 years ago. They weren't closed down because of a lack of people with psychiatric disorders, or because Freudian psycho-analysis was so successful, but because of effective psych drugs.

No one is forcing you to take antidepressants. If you think they are wicked tools of an evil government, medical and pharmaceutical companies conspiracy then therapy is a good alternative. Or you could use the really dangerous 'meds' most used before antidepressants and anti psychotics, etc, became available, booze, otc painkillers and nicotine. Alcohol is still the most widely (self)prescribed anti anxiety/depression 'med' on the market.

[lifeofbrian]

I wanted people on here with knowledge about such things to give their opinions on what he was saying. I would never take anything said by anyone as gospel, be it Stefan Molyneux, my parents my GP or someone on this forum. I would want to hear all sides of the argument so I can make an informed decision, no matter what the subject. But as anxiety is dominating my life this is obviously something I have great interest in, and there are many schools of thought on the best approach to dealing with it. I mean just because one man alone first said the Earth is round, and every single other person on the planet said it's flat, doesn't mean that one man was wrong.


So, in line with any cult leader then?

---------- Post added at 03:58 ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 ----------
What exactly are you interested in? If there are interesting points, raise them for discussion and there may be merit because it agrees with credible professionals. However, that doesn't validate the guy, it's important to remember that.

---------- Post added at 13:13 ---------- Previous post was at 13:04 ----------

If you think this guy is so dangerous, debate him, I bet he'd have you on his show. I'd like to watch that, this guy's show has over 100 million downloads, if he's so wrong on this subject, then he could be causing great harm to those suffering mental health issues and needs to be taught the truth. You could do a great service by taking him down a notch. At least post on his forum.

As I said to Terry, I remain open minded about these things, just because one man alone first said the Earth is round, and every single other person on the planet said it's flat, that doesn't mean that one man was wrong. Science is not a democracy.

And as for "No one is forcing you to take antidepressants. If you think they are wicked tools of an evil government, medical and pharmaceutical companies conspiracy". Really? Did I say that?


Okay, some points. I stopped about 12 minutes in because there is only so much nonsense I can take at one sitting.

[MyNameIsTerry]

His membership is irrelevant. Is he qualified to discuss the subject? He appears to have no more background in this than anyone else.

I'm not saying everything he says will be wrong, but I don't understand why anyone would be taking an unqualified opinion on a scientific subject. It's perfectly possible he reads agreed scientific opinion and regurgitates it with his own spin but I think I would prefer to hear it from someone who understands the subject than an online blogger who doesn't appear to be interested in mental health in the main.

The earth was flat when science was in it's infancy. There is no comparison to today's world.

There are lots of people out there harming others. It's the internet. I know gurus that sound convincing yet I've learned more about anxiety disorders to know they are talking rubbish. I was duped out of money by one so I'm wary of blogger types with little background in a subject for obvious reasons.

Given Ian's point above about violence, I'm getting the anti med vibe here.

I haven't watched it but certainly be careful listening to people like this. Any hint of money involves and their interests won't be your health, in my experience.

Can I ask, what is that you are interested in? You might get more opinions if you point them out as not everyone may want to try to work it out from watching the video.

[panic_down_under]

And as for "No one is forcing you to take antidepressants. If you think they are wicked tools of an evil government, medical and pharmaceutical companies conspiracy". Really? Did I say that?

No, Molyneux is.

[MyNameIsTerry]

No, Molyneux is.

I find it hard to take a guy like this seriously when he trivialises mental illness like this:

https://mobile.twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/823235431487729665

---------- Post added at 05:04 ---------- Previous post was at 04:02 ----------

Am interesting debunk of the video. It's useful because the writer gives the timestamp do you can validate the point he is discussing:

https://debunkingdenialism.com/2011/12/16/stefan-molyneuxs-unfortunate-spiraling-into-anti-psychiatry/

I haven't got the time to watch a video this long but I did watch a few minutes here & there to get a flavour of it.

It was obvious straight away that the sources were very poor quality. Either that or this guy is a lazy journo type since he used other media articles rather than the source material. This is a major problem because it means he is affected by the bias of the article (see The Daily Mail for snipping tiny bits from studies to create scare stories).

The piece stood out as biases towards debunking psychiatry & psychiatric medication. It was interesting that he mentioned family experience of older treatments and how if a physical test, like a blood test, was invented it would still not redress the last fifty years. That started to sound like an axe to grind.

I have less of an issue with his attempt at debunking, although I would prefer a more objective piece examining whether things actually do work rather than when they may fail, but it does make me question his bias towards studies that reinforce his agenda and whether I believe he would consider evidence that invalidates them.

I also come back to the fact that this guy isn't involved in this field. This means without expert review of his work, he will leave holes, not realise something exists if be hasn't encountered it, etc.

The guy in this link mentioned about migraine not having a test. The blogger raised back ache as an injury and not a diagnosis without realising there are physical issues that it falls into. Doctors look at symptoms in diagnosing many physical problems so behavioural diagnosis is valid outside of psychiatry.

Then we have the homosexuality red herring. Science moves forward. Not too long ago in the UK homosexuality was illegal, now it's not. Society changes. In other news, we also stopping burning heretics at the stake and dunking witches. :winks:

[panic_down_under]

I haven't got the time to watch a video this long but I did watch a few minutes here & there to get a flavour of it.

Neither have I, but of the first 12 minutes I watched the only thing I agreed with is the title, There Is No Such Thing As Mental Illness. The Mind is a construct of the brain, not an organ capable of becoming ill any more than a dream can. These are illnesses of the brain, albeit ones which manifest through the mind construct. Imho, it is a great tragedy is that they were differentiated from other, *physical, illnesses because it has coloured how they are perceived and responded to. (*of course every physical illnesses can have/has a psychological component.)


Am interesting debunk of the video. It's useful because the writer gives the timestamp do you can validate the point he is discussing:

Thanks for the link. I see that later Molyneux cites the 2008 Kirsch et al paper to support his antidepressants don't work claim. I wrote a critique of it soon after it was published which drew the ire of some prominent psychiatrists, most notably Ron Pies, MD, none of whom had apparently either really read the paper, or my critique.

The paper was, imho, garbage as it made a number of claims about antidepressants effectiveness in those with mild to moderately severe depression which weren't supported by the data cited. Except for a small sample in just one of the 35 studies analyzed all the participants were initially classified as severely depressed. And that was only just one of the problems with the Kirsch meta-analysis. Which is no doubt why it appeared in the 'pay to publish' PLoS Med 'journal'. He has made a habit of publishing studies showing antidepressants don't work that are, imho, more about pushing an ideology than good science.


Then we have the homosexuality red herring. Science moves forward.

It's not just homosexuality. Med students were taught epilepsy was primarily a mental, not physical, disorder until the 1940s, a form of hysteria. Medicine has indeed moved forward, though perhaps not far enough given anxiety disorders are still classified as mental disorders even though they have brain features in common with epilepsy.


In other news, we also stopping burning heretics at the stake and dunking witches.

Yes, and note the rise in mental health issues since, especially depression. Those liberal tree hugging lefties are always taking the fun out of life!! No wonder folk are increasingly depressed. :mad: :winks:

[lifeofbrian]

Good links, cheers.


I find it hard to take a guy like this seriously when he trivialises mental illness like this:

https://mobile.twitter.com/StefanMolyneux/status/823235431487729665

---------- Post added at 05:04 ---------- Previous post was at 04:02 ----------

Am interesting debunk of the video. It's useful because the writer gives the timestamp do you can validate the point he is discussing:

https://debunkingdenialism.com/2011/12/16/stefan-molyneuxs-unfortunate-spiraling-into-anti-psychiatry/