And Yet Another Terrorist Attack (London) [Archive]

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 10:13

It seems that you cant turn the news on with something like this happening,
This is another Van Attack in Finsbury Park out side a mosque. 1 person dead 10 injured Theresa May is now in yet another Cobra Meeting The attacker isn't dead (which is more the pity) and being treated in hospital sorry but I think he should be interrogated to the point where he cant take it any more again and breaks down, so sad for the people of London, this sort of cowardly attack is not going to break people down. Cheers

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 10:32

KK77

19-06-17, 11:06

I heard all this going on last night. These people are not Muslims, or of any other true religion, which all forbid taking a life/murder. They are fanatical, brainwashed, deeply disturbed terrorists (of whatever 'political' ideology).

Unfortunately, I think it's going to be a long summer of high tension and I send strength to all those involved...

Gary A

19-06-17, 11:15

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 11:19

It's an attack on Muslims in this case as is being reported by the media. The guy was white and shouting he wanted to kill Muslims.

It may be a retaliation to recent attacks.

Religion has never stopped murder in it's name anyway, it gets called a war instead or something else. And I'm pretty sure people of all faiths have committed crimes including murder. People are people so are capable of anything.

---------- Post added at 11:19 ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 ----------

They most certainly are Muslims. Fundamentalist Muslims, yes, but Muslims nonetheless.

Agreed. Isn't it how some attempt to remove the bad elements from Islam? They seem to think we are all thick and will view Islam & all it's followers as the same. I think they end up annoying people more by trying to deny it.

Gary A

19-06-17, 11:19

It's an attack on Muslims in this case as is being reported by the media. The guy was white and shouting he wanted to kill Muslims.

It may be a retaliation to recent attacks.

Religion has never stopped murder in it's name anyway, it gets called a war instead or something else. And I'm pretty sure people of all faiths have committed crimes including murder. People are people so are capable of anything.

The best of us will do the best of things, the worst of us will do the worst of things, but if you want the best of people to do the worst of things you'll need to give them religion.

KK77

19-06-17, 11:20

They most certainly are Muslims. Fundamentalist Muslims, yes, but Muslims nonetheless.

It was an attack on a Mosque - and there is a difference between Islamists and Muslims.

Hollow

19-06-17, 11:21

Finsbury mosque is a very dodgy place, it's been linked with several high profile "terrorist attacks" in the past. I believe the infamous Abu Hamza used to be a preacher there, and there's information which suggests that this place is being run by the security services. It looks like this attack will he blamed on a " right wing white supremacist" type, very predictable as usual. They're not going to stop until people wake up and call them out on this bs.

Gary A

19-06-17, 11:24

It was an attack on a Mosque - and there is a difference between Islamists and Muslims.

My apologies, I didn't realise this discussion was about the attack on a mosque. Note to self, read things properly first. :doh:

I completely disagree with you, however. Muslims may interpret the Quran and hadiths in different ways, but it's all the same hymn sheet.

KK77

19-06-17, 11:24

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 11:28

I noticed people talking about this on another forum but didn't check the news to find out more so thanks for this, Dave.

Was this an attack specifically on Muslims? If so, I guess that's because of their more recent openness over reporting these nutters?

Wishing all the support to the injured & upset and RIP to the deceased. I hope they all get the help they need, both mental & physical, to get through this terrible tragedy. :hugs::flowers:

EDIT: Caught up on the news now, the heat was knocking me out last night.

Remains to be seen if this is an ultra far right attack or something else but it doesn't change sentiments over support of those harmed by this nutter. Yes sadly it was a attack on muslims (law abiding) when the attacker was asked my he just said I want to kill muslims and guess you are right Terry think nutters is too kind a phrase really, More to the point Terry I still say enough isn't being done in deleteing threads and accounts on social media I bet there are ppl now celebraiting this attack on SN sites and yet their posts and comments will not be removed ever good person who uses SN sites now should be putting pressure on the owners of such sites to start the clean up process IMHO at 11:30 the pm is speaking from outside no 10 on BBC 1 Iam going to watch this with baited breath. Cheers

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 11:30

KK77

19-06-17, 11:31

My apologies, I didn't realise this discussion was about the attack on a mosque. Note to self, read things properly first. :doh:

I completely disagree with you, however. Muslims may interpret the Quran and hadiths in different ways, but it's all the same hymn sheet.

They could say that they carry out all this in the name of the Queen. Would the Queen agree with them? In the same way, they can call themselves Jihadis following Muslim religion but totally denigrate the religion, as these people do.

In Islam it is Haram (forbidden) to murder. The Muslim Community does not accept them or their actions, and if people start lumping all Muslims together, it will feed more division and conflict.

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 11:33

Yes sadly it was a attack on muslims (law abiding) when the attacker was asked my he just said I want to kill muslims and guess you are right Terry think nutters is too kind a phrase really, More to the point Terry I still say enough isn't being done in deleteing threads and accounts on social media I bet there are ppl now celebraiting this attack on SN sites and yet their posts and comments will not be removed ever good person who uses SN sites now should be putting pressure on the owners of such sites to start the clean up process IMHO at 11:30 the pm is speaking from outside no 10 on BBC 1 Iam going to watch this with baited breath. Cheers

I'm sure there will be idiots celebrating whether there is an attack on Muslims or an attack by them. That's just the internet, it empowers idiots to be bigger idiots.

Is it so different to the distasteful jokes & vitriol whenever someone dies?

Gary A

19-06-17, 11:37

Your reply was right, the point wasn't even about what happened, it was about separation of ISIS types from the rest of Islam.

Sam Harris does an excellent talk on this type of thing.

It's centred around the problem being a Muslim one. He makes the excellent point about religious fundamentalism not being the problem, that is unless the fundamentals of the religion are fundamentally warped and violent to begin with.

I honestly have no idea how people can deny that Islam is the problem, frankly. The prophet Muhammad stated in the Hadith that he reigns supreme by inflicting terror. He openly calls for martyrdom in the name of Islam.

This is the chap whom they all worship. Yet, it seems that the less you act on his commands the more Muslim you are?

Of course all Muslims aren't terrorists, but there really has to be less effort put into excusing the faith itself. Everything these maniacs do can be directly traced back to commands from their prophet. How the hell does that not make it a problem with the faith?

Hollow

19-06-17, 11:39

I completely disagree with you, however. Muslims may interpret the Quran and hadiths in different ways, but it's all the same hymn sheet.

Hi,

These "islamists" hate muslims that follow mainstream Islam more than anyone else. You can see this in Syria right now where these Wahabbists are murdering muslims that don't believe in their ideology. Basically they don't consider anyone to be a muslim if they are not a wahabbist, that's a bit of a problem because 80% ot muslims are not.

Gary A

19-06-17, 11:40

They could say that they carry out all this in the name of the Queen. Would the Queen agree with them? In the same way, they can call themselves Jihadis following Muslim religion but totally denigrate the religion, as these people do.

In Islam it is Haram (forbidden) to murder. The Muslim Community does not accept them or their actions, and if people start lumping all Muslims together, it will feed more division and conflict.

They don't blame the queen though, they blame the prophet Muhammad. If you don't think he would agree then you should probably read some more about him.

Also, it is forbidden to murder unless it's for a just cause. Jihad is just cause, and it is directly stated in the Quran that martyrdom in the name of jihad will bring great reward.

This is not an attempt at lumping them all together, it's an attempt to stop people claiming that these nutcases aren't Muslim.

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 11:46

Sam Harris does an excellent talk on this type of thing.

It's centred around the problem being a Muslim one. He makes the excellent point about religious fundamentalism not being the problem, that is unless the fundamentals of the religion are fundamentally warped and violent to begin with.

I honestly have no idea how people can deny that Islam is the problem, frankly. The prophet Muhammad stated in the Hadith that he reigns supreme by inflicting terror. He openly calls for martyrdom in the name of Islam.

This is the chap whom they all worship. Yet, it seems that the less you act on his commands the more Muslim you are?

Of course all Muslims aren't terrorists, but there really has to be less effort put into excusing the faith itself. Everything these maniacs do can be directly traced back to commands from their prophet. How the hell does that not make it a problem with the faith?

Absolutely. We have Christian lunatics too and quite rightly they should be viewed as a branch rather than denied. There's no point putting our heads in the sand over it.

The Bible was happy enough with murder in it's name wasn't it? But we just don't follow these elements just as I'm sure the majority of Muslims don't from their faith.

I don't think the Queen has ever called for murder. If you twist following her into your right to murder others then she can easily deny any involvement in that thinking. The same can't be said for Quran.

Why can't it be accepted that they do this because of their views on their religion without lumping all Muslims together? Why do they need to be separated due to this? It just seems a way to deny the link.

Gary A

19-06-17, 11:51

Absolutely. We have Christian lunatics too and quite rightly they should be viewed as a branch rather than denied. There's no point putting our heads in the sand over it.

The Bible was happy enough with murder in it's name wasn't it? But we just don't follow these elements just as I'm sure the majority of Muslims don't from their faith.

I don't think the Queen has ever called for murder. If you twist following her into your right to murder others then she can easily deny any involvement in that thinking. The same can't be said for Quran.

Why can't it be accepted that they do this because of their views on their religion without lumping all Muslims together? Why do they need to be separated due to this? It just seems a way to deny the link.

That's precisely what we see in the aftermath of more murder and slaughter in the name of Islam. PC hand wringers scrambling to ensure they aren't called Muslim rather than directly confronting the elephant in the room.

This problem stems directly from the barbaric fundamentals of Islam, so to deny its the faith causing the problem is utterly ridiculous.

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 11:51

Hi,

These "islamists" hate muslims that follow mainstream Islam more than anyone else. You can see this in Syria right now where these Wahabbists are murdering muslims that don't believe in their ideology. Basically they don't consider anyone to be a muslim if they are not a wahabbist, that's a bit of a problem because 80% ot muslims are not.

Yes, that's why I wondered if this was am attack on the Muslim community by ISIS because they are communicating with the police.

It takes Muslims to call them out on their radical views. They understand it the best. If they stay quiet, they risk our disdain but if they speak up they paint a target on their backs for these nutters.

I can understand there must be fear in the Muslim communities across our countries as they must have an idea they are near to potential nutcases. That can't be easy to live with as they risk the safety of their families in doing the right thing.

KK77

19-06-17, 11:51

Sam Harris does an excellent talk on this type of thing.

It's centred around the problem being a Muslim one. He makes the excellent point about religious fundamentalism not being the problem, that is unless the fundamentals of the religion are fundamentally warped and violent to begin with.

I honestly have no idea how people can deny that Islam is the problem, frankly. The prophet Muhammad stated in the Hadith that he reigns supreme by inflicting terror. He openly calls for martyrdom in the name of Islam.

This is the chap whom they all worship. Yet, it seems that the less you act on his commands the more Muslim you are?

Of course all Muslims aren't terrorists, but there really has to be less effort put into excusing the faith itself. Everything these maniacs do can be directly traced back to commands from their prophet. How the hell does that not make it a problem with the faith?
You should be more respectful to those peaceful people who are religious. I'm not religious - however these remarks would serve to offend and divide further. A murderer is a murderer - there cannot be an excuse. To my knowledge, all religions are based on non-violence, even though religion has unfortunately also caused wars, as in the Holy Crusades. But religion was always used in a distorted way. As I said, it is haram to kill in Islam.

If you go to a mosque or church or temple etc and start talking about killing people, you will be thrown out, as it should be. And that is what actually happened to many of these so-called Islamist terrorists who attended mosques and discussed their 'ideas'.

Hollow

19-06-17, 11:56

Sam Harris and others like him all have something in common, they are Jewish and/or are big supporters of Isreal. Obviously it suits their agenda to blame Islam and muslims for all these problems.how else will they get the West to fight their wars for them? e.g Iraq, Libya, Syria.

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 11:56

That's precisely what we see in the aftermath of more murder and slaughter in the name of Islam. PC hand wringers scrambling to ensure they aren't called Muslim rather than directly confronting the elephant in the room.

This problem stems directly from the barbaric fundamentals of Islam, so to deny its the faith causing the problem is utterly ridiculous.

And they don't realise how they align with the likes of Erdogan who tries to deny it too. Yet he's far from the left leaning that we usually see trying to avoid looking at that elephant.

We don't have to be far right ignorant islamophobes to accept the problem without tarring everyone yet that's how the PC brigade seem to approach it. It's true there will be ignorant idiots but surely educating them is better than telling them they are wrong & ignorant? Denying the links just seem to irritate the rest who are able to see it as not reflective of all Muslims.

Gary A

19-06-17, 11:58

If "to your knowledge" all religions are based on peace then you really haven't looked into religion.

Surely an "extremist" Muslim, if the religion were based on peace, would be extremely peaceful?

The Jayen monks are a peace based religion and the more extreme they are in their faith the more peaceful they are.

The same certainly cannot be said for Islam.

---------- Post added at 11:58 ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 ----------

Sam Harris and others like him all have something in common, they are Jewish and/or are big supporters of Isreal. Obviously it suits their agenda to blame Islam and muslims for all these problems.how else will they get the West to fight their wars for them? e.g Iraq, Libya, Syria.

Sam Harris is an atheist. He is just as critical of any form of faith.

Hollow

19-06-17, 12:06

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Sam Harris is an atheist. He is just as critical of any form of faith.

Someone can be a athiest and still be Jewish, jews see themselves as belonging to a race not a religion. Also don't see him criticising his own tribe as to what they are doing in Palestine and elsewhere.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 12:07

KK77

19-06-17, 12:08

If "to your knowledge" all religions are based on peace then you really haven't looked into religion.

Surely an "extremist" Muslim, if the religion were based on peace, would be extremely peaceful?

The Jayen monks are a peace based religion and the more extreme they are in their faith the more peaceful they are.

The same certainly cannot be said for Islam.

---------- Post added at 11:58 ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 ----------

Sam Harris is an atheist. He is just as critical of any form of faith.

Catholics would call Protestants barbaric too. I don't think you have looked into religion at all. You are quoting Wahhabism which is an intolerant strain of Islam in Saudi Arabia. That's why they still execute so many people for adultery and theft.

Get your facts straight before you speak to me :lac:

Gary A

19-06-17, 12:12

Someone can be a athiest and still be Jewish, jews see themselves as belonging to a race not a religion. Also don't see him criticising his own tribe as to what they are doing in Palestine and elsewhere.

Here we go, someone is pointing out a few home truths and the defence mechanism and "whataboutery" kicks in.

Sam Harris is one of the worlds best known atheists, and I'll challenge you to produce one scrap of evidence that he still considers himself as an active Jew.

---------- Post added at 12:12 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------

Catholics would call Protestants barbaric too. I don't think you have looked into religion at all. You are quoting Wahhabism which is an intolerant strain of Islam in Saudi Arabia. That's why they still execute so many people for adultery and theft.

Get your facts straight before you speak to me :lac:

Is Wahhabism a form of the Muslim faith? Please try and have a debate without acting like you're above it.

KK77

19-06-17, 12:17

Here we go, someone is pointing out a few home truths and the defence mechanism and "whataboutery" kicks in.

Sam Harris is one of the worlds best known atheists, and I'll challenge you to produce one scrap of evidence that he still considers himself as an active Jew.

---------- Post added at 12:12 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------

Is Wahhabism a form of the Muslim faith?

Check it out and you will see.

It's pretty clear you are bigoted Gary. Get over your moronic self and go reply to some HA sufferers in your usual compassionate way as you are out of your depth here ;)

And keep away from East London with your views :lac:

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 12:19

Did any one listen to the pm's speech out side no 10 just now, I did very disappointed by it, Same ole stuff being said and a re newed promise of tackling it in cyber space too I actually cant see this happening soon Theresa May should get Twitter and facebook bosses in to no 10 to get the ball rolling on taking celebration posts and other hatred posts off these sites, yes it's a big task but it has to start now not next week /month The Guy arrested was white and 48 Not enough is being done, however she has set up a 'new' commity wonder what that is going to do. Cheers

I don't see how they can ever stop it bar locking up all human beings.

Is she saying they will tighten security around Mosques? I hope that isn't just Mosques as that went down like a lead balloon last time.

The trouble is when you say you want to clamp down on the Internet you get an outrage that people may not be able to surf for their porn quite so much :winks:

Gary A

19-06-17, 12:20

Check it out and you will see.

It's pretty clear you are bigoted Gary. Get over your moronic self and go reply to some HA sufferers in your usual compassionate way as you are out of your depth here ;)

And keep away from East London with your views :lac:

Question dodged, shouts of "bigotry" and a personal attack.

The usual rubbish.

Hollow

19-06-17, 12:22

Sam Harris is one of the worlds best known atheists, and I'll challenge you to produce one scrap of evidence that he still considers himself as an active Jew.[COLOR="blue"]

.

https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

KK77

19-06-17, 12:24

Question dodged, shouts of "bigotry" and a personal attack.

The usual rubbish.

I have explained (go back and reread) but your brain is not accepting info. So go play elsewhere. And you are a bigot. You are the reason why divide and rule works so efficiently!

You are full of ****ing shit Gary :lac:

Gary A

19-06-17, 12:25

https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

:roflmao:

Did you even read that before you posted it?

Try again.

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 12:25

Question dodged, shouts of "bigotry" and a personal attack.

The usual rubbish.

Being willing to discuss the issue to understand it and draw sensible conclusions is bigotry?

So, heinous acts under Wahhabism are accepted as carried out by Muslims but not further branches into fundamentalism? Or are we now saying Saudi Arabia isn't Muslim?

Phuzella

19-06-17, 12:27

There is no way of stopping 'terrorism'. There will always be nutters, religious or otherwise, wanting to cause mayhem.

---------- Post added at 12:27 ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 ----------

And ffs stop bloody bickering amongst yourselves

Gary A

19-06-17, 12:27

I have explained (go back and reread) but your brain is not accepting info. So go play elsewhere. And you are a bigot. You are the reason why divide and rule works so efficiently!

You are full of ****ing shit Gary :lac:

The simple question was, is Wahhabism a form of the Muslim faith. You know and I know that it is.

Why is it bigoted to say that the faith of Islam is a problem when these barbaric acts can be directly traced to their religious texts?

My brain is processing everything you say, just because I think you're talking out of your arse doesn't mean I'm not processing it.

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 12:37

If if turns out the guy who attacked this Mosque follows a fundamental form of Christianity, will we all be trying to distance their faith from the rest or shall we accept they exist?

Surely the Muslim community can be credited with enough intelligence to read and understand it? Of course there will be the ignorant minorities who won't and even turn to racism over it but I'm willing to believe the vast majority would see it as an extremist end of the Christian spectrum.

Hollow

19-06-17, 12:39

Or are we now saying Saudi Arabia isn't Muslim?

Hi Terry,

A lot of mainstream muslim scholars in the past actually did say that Wahabbists are not muslims but this has been changing because of the influence Saudi Arabia has in terms of controlling the 2 most important sites in Islam as well as the petrodollars they have used to spread Wahabbism. However still a lot Muslim scholars have said that they are not muslim.

KK77

19-06-17, 12:41

The simple question was, is Wahhabism a form of the Muslim faith. You know and I know that it is.

Why is it bigoted to say that the faith of Islam is a problem when these barbaric acts can be directly traced to their religious texts?

My brain is processing everything you say, just because I think you're talking out of your arse doesn't mean I'm not processing it.

Is Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs a form Conservatism? Your question is crass. It's that far removed from the true teachings Muslims follow.

Your head is so far up your own ar$e, it's permanently engaged :roflmao:

And Terry... You're like a whore, jumping in and out of bed with whoever suits your agenda :lac:

---------- Post added at 12:41 ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 ----------

Hi Terry,

A lot of mainstream muslim scholars in the past actually did say that Wahabbists are not muslims but this has been changing because of the influence Saudi Arabia has in terms of controlling the 2 most important sites in Islam as well as the petrodollars they have used to spread Wahabbism. However still a lot Muslim scholars have said that they are not muslim.

At least someone here is actually thinking...

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 12:42

Is Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs a form Conservatism? Your question is crass. It's that far removed from the true teachings Muslims follow.

Your head is so far up your own ar$e, it's permanently engaged :roflmao:

And Terry... You're like a whore, jumping in and out of bed with whoever suits your agenda :lac:

So, that's me, Gary, Lola-Lee and Buster you've attacked today. You're on a roll! :yesyes:

KK77

19-06-17, 12:44

Counting are we? I've lost count of your shite TBH Tim :doh:

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 12:45

I don't see how they can ever stop it bar locking up all human beings.

Is she saying they will tighten security around Mosques? I hope that isn't just Mosques as that went down like a lead balloon last time.

The trouble is when you say you want to clamp down on the Internet you get an outrage that people may not be able to surf for their porn quite so much :winks: No But they the government could actually try and do something about it if you follow? like said before Terry we aren't just talking about a handful of accounts that are preaching ISIS propagander or posts that are enjoying this sort of attack thousands of these accounts are on line and too allow these accounts to continue fuelling this fire is outrageous and yes sorry more police presence outside mosques only and only in London:huh: Cheers

Gary A

19-06-17, 12:47

Counting are we? I've lost count of your shite TBH Tim :doh:

Are you ok? Jesus, someone doesn't like being disagreed with.

Go and have a big glass of calm down juice and try again.

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 12:47

Hi Terry,

A lot of mainstream muslim scholars in the past actually did say that Wahabbists are not muslims but this has been changing because of the influence Saudi Arabia has in terms of controlling the 2 most important sites in Islam as well as the petrodollars they have used to spread Wahabbism. However still a lot Muslim scholars have said that they are not muslim.

Hi Hollow,

How do the Wahhabists consider themselves?

It's interesting that scholars say this but what are their leanings? A dreadful shame they can't speak freely.

KK77

19-06-17, 12:48

Are you ok? Jesus, someone doesn't like being disagreed with.

Go and have a big glass of calm down juice and try again.

4/10 for humour, ye olde bigot-face :shades:

NEXT!

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 12:50

Counting are we? I've lost count of your shite TBH Tim :doh:

Well it is easy. Personal insults tend to stand out.

So, I'll add Bee, Ian and KeeKee then. KeeKee has even left over it.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 12:51

Gary A

19-06-17, 12:52

4/10 for humour, ye olde bigot-face :shades:

NEXT!

I think now we can see why you spend your time in one thread talking meaningless drivel all day.

KK77

19-06-17, 12:52

I didn't even speak to KeeKee - so cross that one off!

And wake up a lot earlier (than 7pm) if you're going to try to humiliate me Timmy Boyo ;)

Gary A

19-06-17, 12:53

Complaints status: KK has lost it.

KK77

19-06-17, 12:54

I think now we can see why you spend your time in one thread talking meaningless drivel all day.

Come and join us - and we will be happy to sort your boring life out by deleting your complaint :D

So you like a wee read of our thread, as you seem to know how it works, eh? ;)

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 12:54

No But they the government could actually try and do something about it if you follow? like said before Terry we aren't just talking about a handful of accounts that are preaching ISIS propagander or posts that are enjoying this sort of attack thousands of these accounts are on line and too allow these accounts to continue fuelling this fire is outrageous and yes sorry more police presence outside mosques only and only in London:huh: Cheers

Some backlash will be due from other communities then given the attacks in France. Hopefully this guy is another lone attacker and they can get back to normality soon.

They need to throw more money into intelligence too. They are the ones who can help us.

Gary A

19-06-17, 12:57

Come and join us - and we will be happy to sort your boring life out by deleting your complaint :D

So you like a wee read of our thread, as you seem to know how it works, eh? ;)

Yeah, I read threads on a forum, dafuq is wrong with me?

Hollow

19-06-17, 12:58

Hi Hollow,

How do the Wahhabists consider themselves?

It's interesting that scholars say this but what are their leanings? A dreadful shame they can't speak freely.

Wahabbists consider themselves to be the true muslims and anyone who doesn't believe in their doctrine is considered to be a heretic, to them this is worst than being a "infidel". A lot of these scholars have been murdered in muslim countries after speaking out against Wahabbism so you can understand they are a bit wary. The people actually claiming to speak in the name of muslims for example Muslim council of Britain here in UK are infact Wahabbists so obviously they won't criticise Saudi Arabia.

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 12:59

I didn't even speak to KeeKee - so cross that one off!

And wake up a lot earlier (than 7pm) if you're going to try to humiliate me Timmy Boyo ;)

I didn't see KeeKee's thread but I did see the other one that Admin had to remove. I wasn't the only one that did.

Oh dear, more digs at my OCD, eh?

I'm not trying to humiliate you, that again is your perception issue just like when you falsely accuse others of anger, if i did I would be pointing out your hypocrisy and childish behaviour. Why the need to call names and poke at people's mental health? How do you think a forum of anxiety sufferers will view that?

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 12:59

Some backlash will be due from other communities then given the attacks in France. Hopefully this guy is another lone attacker and they can get back to normality soon.

They need to throw more money into intelligence too. They are the ones who can help us. Yes probably I hope this attacker isn't released on bail pending further enquires as he is a risk to others any one with a brain can see that. Absolutley more cash should now be made available still think it's too little to late. Cheers

KK77

19-06-17, 13:01

Yeah, I read threads on a forum, dafuq is wrong with me?

Street cred Gary? Trying to be a hard man? :shades:

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 13:02

Ahh respectfully Guys stop this bickering We all have our own opinions on this attack in London but we are all adults so lets act like them :) All Iam after is a good debate on something that affects all of us Thank you

Agreed Dave. Some of this is going on across the forum and knackering threads. I wish Admin would do something.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 13:03

I didn't see KeeKee's thread but I did see the other one that Admin had to remove. I wasn't the only one that did.

Oh dear, more digs at my OCD, eh?

I'm not trying to humiliate you, that again is your perception issue just like when you falsely accuse others of anger, if i did I would be pointing out your hypocrisy and childish behaviour. Why the need to call names and poke at people's mental health? How do you think a forum of anxiety sufferers will view that? Terry think personally this should be discussed on a new thread and not on this thread certainly not having a go, just a observation :) Going to take my dog out if the bickering continues then the thread will go. Cheers

KK77

19-06-17, 13:04

Wahabbists consider themselves to be the true muslims and anyone who doesn't believe in their doctrine is considered to be a heretic, to them this is worst than being a "infidel". A lot of these scholars have been murdered in muslim countries after speaking out against Wahabbism so you can understand they are a bit wary. The people actually claiming to speak in the name of muslims for example Muslim council of Britain here in UK are infact Wahabbists so obviously they won't criticise Saudi Arabia.

Yes, it's a complex issue Hollow. One that people like Gary will have difficulty following I'm afraid. They prefer the line of least resistance and making life easier for their brains by lumping disparate 'groups' together. The ironic thing is, this is just what the 'terrorists' want too.

Such is life.

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 13:05

Yes probably I hope this attacker isn't released on bail pending further enquires as he is a risk to others any one with a brain can see that. Absolutley more cash should now be made available still think it's too little to late. Cheers

I can't see be would get bail. For a start they would have to protect him costing us tons of money and that would cause further public backlash on top of the scandal of bail alone.

Yes, definitely too little too late. They do head off attacks but we need an inquiry into why it's failing now. Obviously anyone can use a van and can't be stopped if they intend it but it's the monitoring & status that needs investigation I think.

Gary A

19-06-17, 13:05

Street cred Gary? Trying to be a hard man? :shades:

Sometimes you just gotta late haters know innit?

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 13:08

Terry think personally this should be discussed on a new thread and not on this thread certainly not having a go, just a observation :) Going to take my dog out if the bickering continues then the thread will go. Cheers

Don't blame you Dave. Admin probably wouldn't like a thread just for an argument. .

People have a right to defend themselves though. It shouldn't be needed in the first place, we have respect rules after all.

I'm sorry your thread has joined the list of those descending into personal insults, it's become a problem recently. We need more Admin presence or I expect it will only continue and more will leave. I'm sick of digs & names.

Phuzella

19-06-17, 13:12

I don't remember the forum being so argumentative few years back. :(

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 13:12

Wahabbists consider themselves to be the true muslims and anyone who doesn't believe in their doctrine is considered to be a heretic, to them this is worst than being a "infidel". A lot of these scholars have been murdered in muslim countries after speaking out against Wahabbism so you can understand they are a bit wary. The people actually claiming to speak in the name of muslims for example Muslim council of Britain here in UK are infact Wahabbists so obviously they won't criticise Saudi Arabia.

Yes, and some have fled due to supporting the right to be homosexual. One Imam came out after fleeing. He will be top of their list along with those who don't follow their doctrine.

Saudi are pumping too much money in to the UK so no one will want to say a word just like the weapons we sell them.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 13:14

I can't see be would get bail. For a start they would have to protect him costing us tons of money and that would cause further public backlash on top of the scandal of bail alone.

Yes, definitely too little too late. They do head off attacks but we need an inquiry into why it's failing now. Obviously anyone can use a van and can't be stopped if they intend it but it's the monitoring & status that needs investigation I think. True but that's the law often people do get bail pending further enquires but for a terrorist attack there are already laws in place that can keep people in custody but it,s not infinite perhaps these laws need looking at again? Sure some attacks are foiled which is always good to hear. But something is failing here wether it's intelligence or the monitoring etc but it does need looking into for sure :) Cheers

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 13:18

I don't remember the forum being so argumentative few years back. :(

You missed months of it, Phuzella. Luckily you came back after various people left on both sides due to some very unpleasant arguing. I remember it well and the nasty PM's I got. A sad period indeed and we are having another now.

But it's just minorities since most on here just continue as BAU and don't even see any of it.

---------- Post added at 13:18 ---------- Previous post was at 13:14 ----------

True but that's the law often people do get bail pending further enquires but for a terrorist attack there are already laws in place that can keep people in custody but it,s not infinite perhaps these laws need looking at again? Sure some attacks are foiled which is always good to hear. But something is failing here wether it's intelligence or the monitoring etc but it does need looking into for sure :) Cheers

Hopefully this guy will be another Jo Cox case. Mosques have been attacked by individuals before in recent years.

Then there were attacks on Jews that seem to be coordinated with the US.

Just ultra far right nutters. We've just got to carry on and see them as the nutcase murderers they are.

Gary A

19-06-17, 13:19

Yes, it's a complex issue Hollow. One that people like Gary will have difficulty following I'm afraid. They prefer the line of least resistance and making life easier for their brains by lumping disparate 'groups' together. The ironic thing is, this is just what the 'terrorists' want too.

Such is life.

The only label I've given these people is Muslim. If they aren't Muslim then tell me why. You haven't attempted to do so, you've given lists of garbled nonsense about Snow White and tried to state that somehow a form of Islam more prominent in Saudi Arabia is less, what, Muslim?

I do not think all Muslims are the same. I do not think that they're all trying to kill us. I do think that hand wringers like you are too busy trying to differentiate between them than actually look further into the fundamentals of the religion to see where the problem is.

The personal insults are water off a ducks back to me, but the arrogance of your replies that, frankly, amount to nothing more than deflection and denial are utterly hilarious.

Do us and yourself a favour, stick to babbling crap in your complaints thread and let us talk about things we have an interest in without throwing labels and tantrums around would you?

Thanks.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 13:20

Don't blame you Dave. Admin probably wouldn't like a thread just for an argument. .

People have a right to defend themselves though. It shouldn't be needed in the first place, we have respect rules after all.

I'm sorry your thread has joined the list of those descending into personal insults, it's become a problem recently. We need more Admin presence or I expect it will only continue and more will leave. I'm sick of digs & names. Sure they do Terry but not in the way I have seen some of these posts so don't get involved with these sorts of posts rise above it I have a lot of respect for you :) And Admin please keep a eye on this thread if possible and post a reminder to those who seek to argue right back in a bit and I don't want to delete this thread, but will do if there is any more arguing I simply wont put up with it Thanks

Phuzella

19-06-17, 13:22

Gary A

19-06-17, 13:23

Sure they do Terry but not in the way I have seen some of these posts so don't get involved with these sorts of posts rise above it I have a lot of respect for you :) And Admin please keep a eye on this thread if possible and post a reminder to those who seek to argue right back in a bit and I don't want to delete this thread, but will do if there is any more arguing I simply wont put up with it Thanks

Threads on subjects like this are always going to get a bit heated, but I think only one member has brought it to the level of personal insults, even to the point of mocking someone's mental illness.

I think this topic is something that should be debated more, and right or wrong we all should be capable of hearing other opinions without launching the toys out the pram.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 13:24

The only label I've given these people is Muslim. If they aren't Muslim then tell me why. You haven't attempted to do so, you've given lists of garbled nonsense about Snow White and tried to state that somehow a form of Islam more prominent in Saudi Arabia is less, what, Muslim?

I do not think all Muslims are the same. I do not think that they're all trying to kill us. I do think that hand wringers like you are too busy trying to differentiate between them than actually look further into the fundamentals of the religion to see where the problem is.

The personal insults are water off a ducks back to me, but the arrogance of your replies that, frankly, amount to nothing more than deflection and denial are utterly hilarious.

Do us and yourself a favour, stick to babbling crap in your complaints thread and let us talk about things we have an interest in without throwing labels and tantrums around would you?

Thanks. Actually I too don't feel all muslims are the same and I also don't think it's a religious thing driving the few who want to kill people in the name of Islam it's simply isn't true. Cheers

Gary A

19-06-17, 13:25

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 13:30

It's a shame. I used to find it reassuring to know people were feeling the same way anxiety wise, but now it can get nasty. And I've noticed a few threads that could be troll led. Mentioning no names but some seem just to be trying to wind people up

---------- Post added at 13:22 ---------- Previous post was at 13:21 ----------

I don't mean this thread in particular either :)

Yes, I agree.

It baffles me as angry exchanges aren't good in anxiety although it can make you more irrational and you jump on people.

I think the majority are the same as they always were though. I try to keep this in mind when stuff like this happens otherwise I think I would have left long ago. There's many more great people on here.

---------- Post added at 13:30 ---------- Previous post was at 13:27 ----------

Actually I too don't feel all muslims are the same and I also don't think it's a religious thing driving the few who want to kill people in the name of Islam it's simply isn't true. Cheers

I don't think it's solely religion but it's a big part of it. These groups are about power too and I would question whether the foot soldiers hold the same views as the money & power grabbers in charge.

There is also the complexity of hatred for the West. But I seriously doubt they would stop at their borders and leave us alone if they grew. I think that's just a way to blame it all on the West.

KK77

19-06-17, 13:30

Actually I too don't feel all muslims are the same and I also don't think it's a religious thing driving the few who want to kill people in the name of Islam it's simply isn't true. Cheers

I am sorry for the ignorance on this thread BigBoy. Some people need to be told it as it is. I will always do that...whether you hate me or not, that's not a problem for me. Cheers, as you say :shades:

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 13:32

Sure they do Terry but not in the way I have seen some of these posts so don't get involved with these sorts of posts rise above it I have a lot of respect for you :) And Admin please keep a eye on this thread if possible and post a reminder to those who seek to argue right back in a bit and I don't want to delete this thread, but will do if there is any more arguing I simply wont put up with it Thanks

Cheers Dave, I appreciate your kind words. I tend to, there are threads I've stayed clear of where it's going on. But there are limits.

Sorry for my part in this in your thread, it's not your fault and it's unfair.

But Gary is right too. It's not the first thread.

Gary A

19-06-17, 13:32

I am sorry for the ignorance on this thread BigBoy. Some people need to be told it as it is. I will always do that...whether you hate me or not, that's not a problem for me. Cheers, as you say :shades:

I always prefer that people who "tell it like it is" actually have the slightest clue what they're talking about and aren't utterly delusional as to their ability to tell it like it is.

But that's just me.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 13:33

Threads on subjects like this are always going to get a bit heated, but I think only one member has brought it to the level of personal insults, even to the point of mocking someone's mental illness.

I think this topic is something that should be debated more, and right or wrong we all should be capable of hearing other opinions without launching the toys out the pram. Sure they are well it only takes one to knock a thread off balance and you side you can rise above insults, put it this way if some one insulted me Admin would be contacted instead of getting heated in the thread :) Sure this sort of topic should be talked more about :) Yes like the way you put that the toys should remain in the pram at all times ;) Thank you

KK77

19-06-17, 13:35

I always prefer that people who "tell it like it is" actually have the slightest clue what they're talking about and aren't utterly delusional as to their ability to tell it like it is.

But that's just me.

Your sentence doesn't make sense but who is being insulting now? Who is "delusional"? Please explain...

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 13:35

Sure they are well it only takes one to knock a thread off balance and you side you can rise above insults, put it this way if some one insulted me Admin would be contacted instead of getting heated in the thread :) Sure this sort of topic should be talked more about :) Yes like the way you put that the toys should remain in the pram at all times ;) Thank you

Elen has tried several times, Dave.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 13:36

What is driving them then?Tbh Gary it's possibly a power thing or simple hatred, but it's a very complex issue this is why the SN sites should be moderated more if it means more staff then Iam all for that too :) Whats your stance on this? Cheers

Hollow

19-06-17, 13:37

What is driving them then?

That's a interesting question. If you actually look at the profile of these "terrorists" in particular their lifestyle, it doesn't really make sense in terms of them being "good muslims. Because they are mostly criminals, drunks, and into drugs and prostitution so not exactly role models for other muslims. Also they are almost always " known to the security services" make of that what you will.

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 13:39

Tbh Gary it's possibly a power thing or simple hatred, but it's a very complex issue this is why the SN sites should be moderated more if it means more staff then Iam all for that too :) Whats your stance on this? Cheers

It's definitely complex. Some will already be maladjusted individuals that would just end up committing crimes at some point in their life's but there is an obvious argument for those who see the West bombing their settlements, especially when innocents get caught up in it.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 13:42

Cheers Dave, I appreciate your kind words. I tend to, there are threads I've stayed clear of where it's going on. But there are limits.

Sorry for my part in this in your thread, it's not your fault and it's unfair.

But Gary is right too. It's not the first thread. Sure Terry and I am not blaming you, apologies accepted!
Cheers

---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 13:40 ----------

Elen has tried several times, Dave. Yes have seen her presence in other threads so sure but not seen it on this thread as yet, hopefully there will be no need. back in bit Cheers

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 13:42

That's a interesting question. If you actually look at the profile of these "terrorists" in particular their lifestyle, it doesn't really make sense in terms of them being "good muslims. Because they are mostly criminals, drunks, and into drugs and prostitution so not exactly role models for other muslims. Also they are almost always " known to the security services" make of that what you will.

I agree but non extremist Muslims over here commit crimes too. People are people.

We have had Muslim gangs fighting white supremacist gangs in my city for various issues.

Gary A

19-06-17, 13:45

Your sentence doesn't make sense but who is being insulting now? Who is "delusional"? Please explain...

Erm...you are.

You think you can insult people and throw names around and just because you said it it's gospel?

If you're going to label me a bigot then give me an example of anything remotely bigoted that I've said. You don't feel you need to that though, do you? You said it so it must be true.

And theirin lays the delusion.

---------- Post added at 13:45 ---------- Previous post was at 13:43 ----------

That's a interesting question. If you actually look at the profile of these "terrorists" in particular their lifestyle, it doesn't really make sense in terms of them being "good muslims. Because they are mostly criminals, drunks, and into drugs and prostitution so not exactly role models for other muslims. Also they are almost always " known to the security services" make of that what you will.

I live in Glasgow, our airport was attacked in 2007. The perpetrators were fully qualified doctors.

That surely proves that intellect and lifestyle has very little to do with it.

KK77

19-06-17, 13:48

Erm...you are.

You think you can insult people and throw names around and just because you said it it's gospel?

If you're going to label me a bigot then give me an example of anything remotely bigoted that I've said. You don't feel you need to that though, do you? You said it so it must be true.

And theirin lays the delusion.

---------- Post added at 13:45 ---------- Previous post was at 13:43 ----------

I live in Glasgow, our airport was attacked in 2007. The perpetrators were fully qualified doctors.

That surely proves that intellect and lifestyle has very little to do with it.
I think you need to take a look at what you've written here. Go on! Read it. Then look up the meaning of the word bigot. Make sense? Understand?

Like pulling out teeth :lac:

Gary A

19-06-17, 13:49

I think you need to take a look at what you've written here. Go on! Read it. Then look up the meaning of the word bigot. Make sense? Understand?

Like pulling out teeth :lac:

Nope, I don't see anything bigoted in anything I've written. Perhaps you could point it out to me. If you don't, I'm afraid I'll have to assume that this "bigot" thing is just a baseless accusation.

KK77

19-06-17, 13:51

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 13:52

o
Erm...you are.

You think you can insult people and throw names around and just because you said it it's gospel?

If you're going to label me a bigot then give me an example of anything remotely bigoted that I've said. You don't feel you need to that though, do you? You said it so it must be true.

And theirin lays the delusion.

---------- Post added at 13:45 ---------- Previous post was at 13:43 ----------

I live in Glasgow, our airport was attacked in 2007. The perpetrators were fully qualified doctors.

That surely proves that intellect and lifestyle has very little to do with it. Sure Hollow I know it's not if you are super intelligent or have a exurberant life style it can come from any way and life style sadly so yes agree it's not that

Gary start your own thread and ask for examples there please regarding your point out of respect for the dead and injured thank you :)

Gary A

19-06-17, 13:53

Sure Hollow I know it's not if you are super intelligent or have a exurberant life style it can come from any way and life style sadly so yes agree it's not that

Gary start your own thread and ask for examples there please regarding your point put of repect for the dead and injured thank you :)

BB, sorry, but why must I start my own thread?

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 13:56

Nope, I don't see anything bigoted in anything I've written. Perhaps you could point it out to me. If you don't, I'm afraid I'll have to assume that this "bigot" thing is just a baseless accusation.

Agreed.

Bigotry being irrational intolerance of the opinions of others, something I can definitely see in this thread but not from you, Gary.

If being willing to sensibly discuss opinions from all sides to learn is bigotry, we can never discuss anything.

Gary A

19-06-17, 13:57

Go to local feckin' Specsavers then! Glasgow is big city :roflmao:

Nice dodge.

Still waiting on an example though.

---------- Post added at 13:57 ---------- Previous post was at 13:57 ----------

Agreed.

Bigotry being irrational intolerance of the opinions of others, something I can definitely see in this thread but not from you, Gary.

If being willing to sensibly discuss opinions from all sides to learn is bigotry, we can never discuss anything.

We still on for tonight then Terry. :bighug1:

KK77

19-06-17, 13:57

BB, sorry, but why must I start my own thread?

So now you're starting on BigBoy. He's kindly asked you to desist asking more questions. You're a Timmy clone - Last Post Saloon Cowboys :shades:

Gary A

19-06-17, 13:59

So now you're starting on BigBoy. He's kindly asked you to desist asking more questions. You're a Timmy clone - Last Post Saloon Cowboys :shades:

No, I asked BB a question because I don't really understand what he means.

I'm sure he's capable of answering me himself if you would stop yammering nonsense for two minutes.

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 14:00

Nice dodge.

Still waiting on an example though.

---------- Post added at 13:57 ---------- Previous post was at 13:57 ----------

We still on for tonight then Terry. :bighug1:

I've got you a pint all ready for you! :yesyes:

Don't you find it hilarious you are being called a clone of me considering the differences of opinion we've had on here?

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 14:00

BB, sorry, but why must I start my own thread? Well basically the thread isn't about bigots well that wasn't my intention any way :) Cheers

KK77

19-06-17, 14:00

No, I asked BB a question because I don't really understand what he means.

Yes, you seem to suffer terribly with that affliction :lac:

Gary A

19-06-17, 14:01

Well basically the thread isn't about bigots well that wasn't my intention any way :) Cheers

I have been accused of bigotry though, I'm not the accuser. I've tried to stay on topic.

---------- Post added at 14:01 ---------- Previous post was at 14:01 ----------

I've got you a pint all ready for you! :yesyes:

Don't you find it hilarious you are being called a clone of me considering the differences of opinion we've had on here?

Yeah it's hilarious.

And really sexy. :D

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 14:02

So now you're starting on BigBoy. He's kindly asked you to desist asking more questions. You're a Timmy clone - Last Post Saloon Cowboys :shades:

Dave also asked everyone to stop the bickering. I'm sure that meant even you. So, how about return to some rational debate out of respect for Dave?

Gary A

19-06-17, 14:02

Yes, you seem to suffer terribly with that affliction :lac:

Yeah.

Still waiting on this example by the way.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 14:04

So now you're starting on BigBoy. He's kindly asked you to desist asking more questions. You're a Timmy clone - Last Post Saloon Cowboys :shades: Hey he isn't if he was I would have said so and sadly it takes 2 to tango KK and I will ask you too to lets get back on track I have no hesitation in deleting this thread when all I asked for is debate on this title nothing more ahh I could do with a pint too thank you :) Cheers

Gary A

19-06-17, 14:05

Hey he isn't if he was I would have said so and sadly it takes 2 to tango KK and I will ask you too to lets get back on track I have no hesitation in deleting this thread when all I asked for is debate on this title nothing more ahh I could do with a pint too thank you :) Cheers

Thanks BB, hope you know I was only wanting some clarification of what you meant.

That'll be us lovers now then.

KK77

19-06-17, 14:06

Hey he isn't if he was I would have said so and sadly it takes 2 to tango KK and I will ask you too to lets get back on track I have no hesitation in deleting this thread when all I asked for is debate on this title nothing more ahh I could do with a pint too thank you :) Cheers

You would make a good moderator BigBoy...

Cheers ;)

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 14:07

Well basically the thread isn't about bigots well that wasn't my intention any way :) Cheers

We understand, Dave. It's a perfectly reasonable debate to have just as the Manchester thread was.

Like Gary said, we should discuss things more anyway and that's what you have been saying for a while. But sadly some veer off into the personal rather than debate the point. Classic attack the messenger. It's just trying to shut down debate. At least racism hasn't been called. :winks:

It's interesting. Religion is not something I know much about so I only learn from others or get signposted to more reading through it.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 14:14

I have been accused of bigotry though, I'm not the accuser. I've tried to stay on topic.

---------- Post added at 14:01 ---------- Previous post was at 14:01 ----------

Yeah it's hilarious.

And really sexy. :D So if it.s not true don't worry about it simple really and yes you have. Terry you crack me up right Iam never going to get my dog walked at this rate ha ha so compose your selves PLEASE it's the last time Iam asking. Thank you and get my Guiness please extra cold bottoms up :)

---------- Post added at 14:14 ---------- Previous post was at 14:11 ----------

Yeah.

Still waiting on this example by the way.ER Gary I said let it rest the thread will go I have had ENOUGH STOP IT

KK77

19-06-17, 14:15

We understand, Dave. It's a perfectly reasonable debate to have just as the Manchester thread was.

Like Gary said, we should discuss things more anyway and that's what you have been saying for a while. But sadly some veer off into the personal rather than debate the point. Classic attack the messenger. It's just trying to shut down debate. At least racism hasn't been called. :winks:

It's interesting. Religion is not something I know much about so I only learn from others or get signposted to more reading through it.

That's what I mean - just can't help yourself Tim. Have to try for a parting shot :lac:

Status: Missed

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 14:15

You would make a good moderator BigBoy...

Cheers ;) Thanks KK :) Appreciated!

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 14:19

So if it.s not true don't worry about it simple really and yes you have. Terry you crack me up right Iam never going to get my dog walked at this rate ha ha so compose your selves PLEASE it's the last time Iam asking. Thank you and get my Guiness please extra cold bottoms up :)

---------- Post added at 14:14 ---------- Previous post was at 14:11 ----------

ER Gary I said let it rest the thread will go I have had ENOUGH STOP IT

They used to do a nice pint of mild at the Hogs Head in Hanley many years ago :yesyes:

You need a docking station that attaches to a dog harness. Then get on Dragon's Den! :woof

---------- Post added at 14:19 ---------- Previous post was at 14:16 ----------

It would be nice to be called Terry. Can you do that?

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 14:21

We understand, Dave. It's a perfectly reasonable debate to have just as the Manchester thread was.

Like Gary said, we should discuss things more anyway and that's what you have been saying for a while. But sadly some veer off into the personal rather than debate the point. Classic attack the messenger. It's just trying to shut down debate. At least racism hasn't been called. :winks:

It's interesting. Religion is not something I know much about so I only learn from others or get signposted to more reading through it. Of course it is Terry And Agree on Gary point on this yeah I am coming back to this thread when I finally get out Yes well this debate will be no more if it carries on if some one doesn't matter who decides to post silly questions but delete their post fine, if not this debate will go.

Gary A

19-06-17, 14:22

So if it.s not true don't worry about it simple really and yes you have. Terry you crack me up right Iam never going to get my dog walked at this rate ha ha so compose your selves PLEASE it's the last time Iam asking. Thank you and get my Guiness please extra cold bottoms up :)

---------- Post added at 14:14 ---------- Previous post was at 14:11 ----------

ER Gary I said let it rest the thread will go I have had ENOUGH STOP IT

BB, in debates people have to provide examples when making accusations, otherwise its baseless. This isn't me trying to create more fighting, it's me trying to see what this person feels I've said that's bigoted.

Bigotry isn't a nice thing, it's not a nice thing to be accused of either, so unless either an example or an apology comes my way then I'm afraid I'm going to push the issue.

This is not in any way meant to attack or disrespect you, it's just a part of the debate.

KK77

19-06-17, 14:28

BB, in debates people have to provide examples when making accusations, otherwise its baseless. This isn't me trying to create more fighting, it's me trying to see what this person feels I've said that's bigoted.

Bigotry isn't a nice thing, it's not a nice thing to be accused of either, so unless either an example or an apology comes my way then I'm afraid I'm going to push the issue.

This is not in any way meant to attack or disrespect you, it's just a part of the debate.

Whose rules would they be? You'll be waiting a LONG time chuck, I can tell ya.

I'm sorry BigBoy but he's dragging this out :lac:

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 14:32

They used to do a nice pint of mild at the Hogs Head in Hanley many years ago :yesyes:

You need a docking station that attaches to a dog harness. Then get on Dragon's Den! :woof

---------- Post added at 14:19 ---------- Previous post was at 14:16 ----------

It would be nice to be called Terry. Can you do that? Is that pub still going Terry another good pub still there is the Coach Makers Arms I must o there again soon Yes remember that on Drgaon's Den always watch the series Cheers

---------- Post added at 14:32 ---------- Previous post was at 14:29 ----------

BB, in debates people have to provide examples when making accusations, otherwise its baseless. This isn't me trying to create more fighting, it's me trying to see what this person feels I've said that's bigoted.

Bigotry isn't a nice thing, it's not a nice thing to be accused of either, so unless either an example or an apology comes my way then I'm afraid I'm going to push the issue.

This is not in any way meant to attack or disrespect you, it's just a part of the debate. I understand that to a point Gary I personally don't think you will get answer you can debate this another 10 pages but this thread will go before it gets to that and then how are going to continue this argument you wont so kindly leave it thank you.

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 14:35

No Dave it went years ago. It was turned more into a Yates' style bar. I can't remember what it was called.

The Coachmakers I can remember. How about The Unicorn?

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 14:42

Whose rules would they be? You'll be waiting a LONG time chuck, I can tell ya.

I'm sorry BigBoy but he's dragging this out :lac: Yes I can see that but it will have to continue else where as this thread is on the verge of being deleted I keep saying then you will be no where to debate this issue over bigotry if the 2 of you cant respect that then I have no alternative Sorry Cheers

---------- Post added at 14:42 ---------- Previous post was at 14:36 ----------

No Dave it went years ago. It was turned more into a Yates' style bar. I can't remember what it was called.

The Coachmakers I can remember. How about The Unicorn?Do you ever have a bevvy occasionaly Terry? The unicorn I have heard of it was is that is it Hanley duck LOL :) Cheers

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 15:18

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 15:39

I think it's still there. I've not been up Hanley for a couple of years though. It was down by the old Odeon.

I used to drink, mostly after work. I gave up with the relapse though as the side effects were pretty bad from meds which continued for a long time so I didn't want to endure the hangovers as my anxiety symptoms included the various aches & pains (well any sensations in my body at first). I missed it for years but these days I rarely even think about it.

Back then my mates always went out drinking and that's one of reasons my avoidance cost me them.

---------- Post added at 14:54 ---------- Previous post was at 14:46 ----------

Sadly through the wonder that is the internet I see people are blaming this on right wing media before even trying to understand what has caused this. The very same thing the right wing media do.

:doh:

Why whip up tensions? It's using the poor victims to score some cheap points and is equally vile whichever side is doing it.

---------- Post added at 15:18 ---------- Previous post was at 14:54 ----------

Heard the police have said he wasn't on the watch list. Remains to be seen if they can trace any affiliations to nutter groups. Well that's all gone now Oden is no more used to be the ABC if I remember rightly? The Unicorn was further up on the corner before you turn in to Marsh Street again If I remember correctly! Yes that's sad Terry when a illness takes over and you lose your friends through it. Can I ask where are you at in your recovery? (completely OT though)

To a point the internet is to blame for a lot of these attacks and grooming vunerable people to this vile cause, last nights attack was probably different in the fact they don't like muslims it's just a thought and quite a valid one as the authorities don't believe this person who drove the van and killed one and injured 10 had any one helping them but it does have the hall marks of ISIS to some degree Glad this thread have now got back on track and respect to the ones who have left this thread so it can continue with out argument so thank you so much :) Cheers

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 15:46

Gary A

19-06-17, 15:47

Whose rules would they be? You'll be waiting a LONG time chuck, I can tell ya.

I'm sorry BigBoy but he's dragging this out :lac:

So you admit that you made a baseless accusation then? Also made a total fool of yourself with it.

Well done, you must be so proud of your contribution. :yesyes:

KK77

19-06-17, 16:03

I'm an argumentative git...

I note that on your old "Leaving" thread last year you said the above about yourself, as you've obviously been arguing on here before. Your attitude is rather hostile - eg, you came on this thread not even knowing the attack was on/near a mosque and got straight down to politics.

You chose the wrong person to argue with this time, however :shades:

Status: Binned

Gary A

19-06-17, 16:08

I note that on your old "Leaving" thread last year you said the above about yourself, as you've obviously been arguing on here before. Your attitude is rather hostile - eg, you came on this thread not even knowing the attack was on/near a mosque and got straight down to politics.

You chose the wrong person to argue with this time, however :shades:

Status: Binned

Oh yeah, you sure showed me. :roflmao:

KK77

19-06-17, 16:13

Oh yeah, you sure showed me. :roflmao:

Yes, I showed what an utter MUPPET you are. Now have some respect for BigBoy :lac:

Gary A

19-06-17, 16:21

Yes, I showed what an utter MUPPET you are. Now have some respect for BigBoy :lac:

By dodging questions, insulting people and making baseless accusations?

Props also for mocking someone's mental illness.

What an absolute star. :yesyes:

MyNameIsTerry

19-06-17, 16:24

It looks like there's been another attack in Paris. A car rammed into the police and an armed assailant put down. No real details yet but it's being investigated as a possible terrorist attack.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 16:45

I guess he just used their methods against them in his mind.

And lots of respect to the people there who detained him as well as helped others.

The ABC was lower down where the new Tesco is. Near the Museum. The old Odeon was further up past those lights into the pedestrian area. That's a theatre now but The Unicorn was up there somewhere (where you turn left after the job centre).

No problem talking about my position in recovery, Dave, but I'll PM as I'm not allowing anything to be used in further personal comments as has been happening. Ok Terry np on that :) Yes some were beating him which again I don't normally justify but Londoner's have had enough. Cheers

---------- Post added at 16:45 ---------- Previous post was at 16:43 ----------

by dodging questions, insulting people and making baseless accusations?

Props also for mocking someone's mental illness.

What an absolute star. :yesyes: ENOUGH YOU ARE DRIVING ME CRAZY STOP IT

Gary A

19-06-17, 16:54

Apologies BB, I'll quit now.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 17:23

It looks like there's been another attack in Paris. A car rammed into the police and an armed assailant put down. No real details yet but it's being investigated as a possible terrorist attack.
So Sad Terry and I remember a while back me saying it will become more often these attacks and others said they are quite rare. Does any one think its time the government talked to ISIS and ask what do they want, through some negotiations ?

Phuzella

19-06-17, 17:55

I thought it said on the news this morning that there were 3 men in the van? Anyone else hear that?

Hollow

19-06-17, 18:06

Does any one think its time the government talked to ISIS and ask what do they want, through some negotiations ?

I think that's a great idea Bigboyuk, the government should ask ISIS to hold a press conference to state their demands But i'm afraid that's not going to happen as ISIS is probably another fake organisation like Al Qaeda.

https://haveyoumetislam.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/robin-cook-there-is-no-al-qaeda.jpg

Bee84

19-06-17, 18:07

I thought it said on the news this morning that there were 3 men in the van? Anyone else hear that?

Yeah and the two ran away. That's what I heard.

Bigboyuk

19-06-17, 18:58

Yeah and the two ran away. That's what I heard. Hmm Interesting as I heard it was a lone attacker a father from Cardiff his mother spoke on a audio recording who was devastated The 48 year old man was not on any lists and wasn't known to the intelligence agencies either he just hatred muslims seems to me he is tarring all muslims as terroists which is very wrong in my book. I see a very angry man here and only vaguely do I understand why he may have done this but certainly don't agree with his actions one bit.So what now? Just a horrible world we live in Cheers

MyNameIsTerry

20-06-17, 00:52

So Sad Terry and I remember a while back me saying it will become more often these attacks and others said they are quite rare. Does any one think its time the government talked to ISIS and ask what do they want, through some negotiations ?

Well they are rare, Dave. How many people are murdered in our cities or killed on roads? How many are injured? It dwarfs terrorism.

People worry about being killed in a terrorist event but just like our HA sufferers, the statistics tell another story. How many smokers do we have in the UK? See what I mean?

They can talk to them but if you mean talk to them to end this, I really can't see that happening. How do you talk to someone willing to murder children? You can't reason with people like that.

---------- Post added at 00:52 ---------- Previous post was at 00:49 ----------

They still report this as one man. Where are the stories of the other 2 coming from?

MyNameIsTerry

20-06-17, 04:52

Turns out the Paris attacker was on the watch list. .

It's a bit sinister that there were gas cannisters. I haven't seen mention of what was in them yet.

They say he was badly burned. Oh well...

Phuzella

20-06-17, 06:13

I heard on the news yesterday morning that there were 3 in the van and 2 ran away, I'm sure they said that. But since then nothing else has been said.

Hollow

20-06-17, 09:37

I heard on the news yesterday morning that there were 3 in the van and 2 ran away, I'm sure they said that. But since then nothing else has been said.

You are exactly right, it looks like the government is lying again! 4 witnesses say there were 3 men in the van.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2017/06/19/finsbury-park-cover-up-pm-may-says-lone-wolf-but-4-separate-witnesses-say-three-men-were-in-attack-van/

Couple of interesting quotes about the suspect in question. It looks like this guy is being framed or he has been coerced by the " authorities" in to doing this.

Saleem Naema lives next door to Darren Osborne.

Saleem says of Darren Osborne: "If I ever needed anything he would come. I am a Muslim."

Khadijeh Sherizi, who said she lives next door to Darren Osborne, said: "He has been so normal. He was in his kitchen yesterday afternoon singing with his kids.

"He seemed polite and pleasant to me."

Gary A

20-06-17, 11:01

Bigboyuk

20-06-17, 11:53

Well they are rare, Dave. How many people are murdered in our cities or killed on roads? How many are injured? It dwarfs terrorism.

People worry about being killed in a terrorist event but just like our HA sufferers, the statistics tell another story. How many smokers do we have in the UK? See what I mean?

They can talk to them but if you mean talk to them to end this, I really can't see that happening. How do you talk to someone willing to murder children? You can't reason with people like that.

---------- Post added at 00:52 ---------- Previous post was at 00:49 ----------

They still report this as one man. Where are the stories of the other 2 coming from? Terry yes sure but ok what I am saying is wether only 1 or 2 innocent people di these attacks are now happening more regular now than in the past, and there's no getting away from this. There is millions of smokers in uk for sure and Iam sadly one of them No I guess you cant reason with the likes of ISIS etc the fight against this sort of attack needs to step up a gear sure we will never stop it but it must be lessened as much as possible :) Yes I heard only one man was involved not sure why other reports are coming in saying there was 3 in total though? Cheers

---------- Post added at 11:53 ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 ----------

You are exactly right, it looks like the government is lying again! 4 witnesses say there were 3 men in the van.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2017/06/19/finsbury-park-cover-up-pm-may-says-lone-wolf-but-4-separate-witnesses-say-three-men-were-in-attack-van/

Couple of interesting quotes about the suspect in question. It looks like this guy is being framed or he has been coerced by the " authorities" in to doing this.

Saleem Naema lives next door to Darren Osborne.

Saleem says of Darren Osborne: "If I ever needed anything he would come. I am a Muslim."

Khadijeh Sherizi, who said she lives next door to Darren Osborne, said: "He has been so normal. He was in his kitchen yesterday afternoon singing with his kids.

"He seemed polite and pleasant to me." Something doesn't ring true here as Darren Osborne said I only want to kill muslims no one can deny that, so why didn't Osborne try and kill Saleem who is a muslim??? Makes no sense to me and feel there are lies being spread around the media any one else agrees? Cheers

Gary A

20-06-17, 12:07

What about all the Muslim eyewitnesses? Are they being coerced by the government? The people who actually witnessed the event, saw this man mowing down a group of innocent Muslims and shout out his warped idiocy? Are they all in bed with the media?

Are they all in bed with the government also? Things really are bad enough without putting all this conspiracy stuff alongside it.

When people feel afraid they become irrational, certain types will decide to take the law into their own hands because they feel that those tasked with protecting us and "doing something about it" appear to be failing.

I hate to say it, but an attack like this on innocent sections of the Muslim community was only a matter of time.

Unfortunately, there are always people who like to make out they know a lot more than anyone else. Their heads can't process the notion that a lone nutcase can and will drive a van into a load of innocent people, so they need to align mysterious and shadowy forces like governments, MI5 and the CIA.

The 9/11 attacks showed that with nothing but a bit of planning, brute force and psychotic determination, a group of less than ten men managed to bring the worlds biggest superpower to its knees in one day. People feel vulnerable and uncomfortable with that, so they seek comfort in claiming a force much more powerful was involved.

I kind of get it, but I find it tiresome in the extreme.

Phuzella

20-06-17, 12:33

The only news I saw yesterday morning was the BBC. Someone on there must've said 3 men because I definitely heard it. That is all. No conspiracy theories, stealth bombers, ufo sightings etc. :D

Bigboyuk

20-06-17, 12:45

Yes the ole saying goes never trust a politician but really no I don't think the government are that corrupt, surely not. but it's a interesting thought though!! Hmm Cheers

MyNameIsTerry

20-06-17, 16:50

You are exactly right, it looks like the government is lying again! 4 witnesses say there were 3 men in the van.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2017/06/19/finsbury-park-cover-up-pm-may-says-lone-wolf-but-4-separate-witnesses-say-three-men-were-in-attack-van/

Couple of interesting quotes about the suspect in question. It looks like this guy is being framed or he has been coerced by the " authorities" in to doing this.

Saleem Naema lives next door to Darren Osborne.

Saleem says of Darren Osborne: "If I ever needed anything he would come. I am a Muslim."

Khadijeh Sherizi, who said she lives next door to Darren Osborne, said: "He has been so normal. He was in his kitchen yesterday afternoon singing with his kids.

"He seemed polite and pleasant to me."

There are some strange things coming out. This guy was also said to hate Muslims. So, has he been pretending to like them by being nice whilst concealing his true beliefs?

Is he really that clever?

I've found people so bigoted rarely keep themselves hidden but to help the people they hate is a strange one.

I guess we will know more after they have done a psychological assessment and looked into his online/offline activity.

I wonder if the reports about two fleeing were early witness reports that the police have since found to have no basis?

Hollow

20-06-17, 17:50

There are some strange things coming out. This guy was also said to hate Muslims. So, has he been pretending to like them by being nice whilst concealing his true beliefs?

Agree with you Terry lots of strange stuff going on, some people are also asking why this guy drove down to London when there are plenty of mosques in Cardiff. I mentioned earlier about Finsbury mosque being a very a dodgy place, i came across this interesting article on this mosque from back in 2002.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/feb/17/terrorism.religion

Corbyn is making the most of it though...

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/19/12/418BB26C00000578-4617070-image-a-14_1497872004806.jpg

MyNameIsTerry

20-06-17, 18:00

Indeed Hollow, the only motive I can see is because of the likes of Abu Hamza who was allowed to preach hate for so long before the government grew a pair.

But wouldn't that make it more an attack of extremism rather than Muslims in general? Or perhaps perceived extremism as I wouldn't want to imply that Mosque is an extremist one but allowing hate preachers gives an image to the outside world, whatever may be the truth.

It's Corbyn's seat so he is bound to be heavily involved in this incident as any MP would be but he seems to be using Grenfell for his policies so I guess we will have to wait & see what he starts saying in a few more days?

bottleblond

20-06-17, 22:22

And now Brussels. :lac:

MyNameIsTerry

21-06-17, 01:03

Yes, Belgium again. Best wishes to the people over there.

Bigboyuk

21-06-17, 09:13

Agree with you Terry lots of strange stuff going on, some people are also asking why this guy drove down to London when there are plenty of mosques in Cardiff. I mentioned earlier about Finsbury mosque being a very a dodgy place, i came across this interesting article on this mosque from back in 2002.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/feb/17/terrorism.religion

Corbyn is making the most of it though...

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/19/12/418BB26C00000578-4617070-image-a-14_1497872004806.jpg Just read this it's interesting, but harrowing too if this really went on at this mosque Could be it still be happening now? Thanks for posting this :) Cheers

Hollow

21-06-17, 12:37

Indeed Hollow, the only motive I can see is because of the likes of Abu Hamza who was allowed to preach hate for so long before the government grew a pair.
/QUOTE]

Yes the infamous Abu Hamza, why was he allowed to preach hate for so long? This might explain it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10814816/Abu-Hamza-secretly-worked-for-MI5-to-keep-streets-of-London-safe.html

---------- Post added at 12:37 ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 ----------

[QUOTE=Bigboyuk;1689139]Just read this it's interesting, but harrowing too if this really went on at this mosque Could be it still be happening now? Thanks for posting this :) Cheers

This mosque has since won an award for being "peaceful" :eek: :roflmao:

Bigboyuk

21-06-17, 13:27

[QUOTE=MyNameIsTerry;1688972]Indeed Hollow, the only motive I can see is because of the likes of Abu Hamza who was allowed to preach hate for so long before the government grew a pair.
/QUOTE]

Yes the infamous Abu Hamza, why was he allowed to preach hate for so long? This might explain it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10814816/Abu-Hamza-secretly-worked-for-MI5-to-keep-streets-of-London-safe.html

---------- Post added at 12:37 ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 ----------

This mosque has since won an award for being "peaceful" :eek: :roflmao:Yes I remember him being moved from preaching inside to being allowed to carry on his horrible crusade, was deal made by the intelligence agencies and the government to allow him to carry on for information about planned attacks etc?? It beggars belief that it was allowed to go on for that amount of time. And reading this article in the telegraph well I am shocked and again Finsbury Park Mosque was mentioned Safe place don't make me laugh :eek: He should die not be put in prison for life. Cheers

MyNameIsTerry

21-06-17, 13:28

Agree with you Terry lots of strange stuff going on, some people are also asking why this guy drove down to London when there are plenty of mosques in Cardiff. I mentioned earlier about Finsbury mosque being a very a dodgy place, i came across this interesting article on this mosque from back in 2002.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/feb/17/terrorism.religion

Corbyn is making the most of it though...

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/19/12/418BB26C00000578-4617070-image-a-14_1497872004806.jpg

They are getting some backlash about hijacking Grenfell Tower now. McDonnell will be unhappy his buddies are being criticised:

https://www.metro.news/grenfell-victims-urge-public-to-veto-day-of-rage/646448/

Hollow

21-06-17, 16:53

They are getting some backlash about hijacking Grenfell Tower now. McDonnell will be unhappy his buddies are being criticised:

https://www.metro.news/grenfell-victims-urge-public-to-veto-day-of-rage/646448/

Scary stuff Terry, are the powers that be about to kickstart a fake revolution via Corbyn and his fellow Marxists? Rivers of blood and all that? The government is so weak that it won't be able to respond effectively if this happens. The 1.5 million apartments being given might cool some of those hot-heads down.

MyNameIsTerry

21-06-17, 17:22

I doubt most would be on board with the kind of things people like McDonnell & Co want. They don't care about Grenfell, it's just another stick to use to get Corbyn in.

I'll put money on a lot of people being sick of the endless protests.

Give them all their nice apartments then turn on them because they are now the "haves"? :biggrin:

They all sell out for cash. Chakrabarti was a lovely example.

Whilst Corbyn won seats he lost strongholds too. I don't think it was a ringing endorsement of his politics despite the current "we won" spin. Lots of spin about Tory marginals yet Labour has them too.

The government is indeed weakened but if it turns to violence do you think it will get the public behind the government?

Hollow

21-06-17, 18:29

The government is indeed weakened but if it turns to violence do you think it will get the public behind the government?

Not if Theresa May is still there, she doesn't have any authority. Is it just me or Corbyn is already being portrayed as if he's Prime Minister, i mean he probably will be soon but he's being very impatient this could be his downfall.

MyNameIsTerry

22-06-17, 01:43

Since the GE they have been portraying Corbyn as the winner. It seems the press that backed May have turned on her too.

But the reality is while they bang on about taking over government, they had less votes as well as less seats and it's very unclear whether that majority would accept Labour via the back door. There would be some backlash from that. Better to have another GE. If they want to try that route, let the LibDems lay claim to the throne too. even better Lord Buckethead! :yesyes:

I think May's had it anyway. She led a dreadful campaign.

Protesters turning to violence to get the government out (and a new TV :winks:) is something the wider population wouldn't like. They don't just stick to government, they tend to start attacking people with anything including small business owners.

Labour have the chance of getting in at the next GE. But I wonder whether a better Tory PM might change some of this as May seems to have tanked? Prior to all this she was killing Corbyn in all the polls for a long time. That lead disappeared as she started announcing her manifesto.

---------- Post added at 01:43 ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 ----------

This one is looking more & more like a very serious mental health issue:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/finsbury-park-suspect-thrown-out-10651036

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/finsbury-park-terror-suspect-split-10651753

Is this like the cases where someone under treatment has attacked people trying to kill them?

His mother mentions he was on meds for something but doesn't give any details, most likely due to the investigation. I wonder if this is someone coming off their meds? Mixing meds with booze is a known catalyst to certain serious mental health conditions where violence occurs.

I think I read on today's Mirror that his sister mentioned he talked of suicide, throwing himself into a river and asked for sectioning.

Hollow

22-06-17, 11:16

[/COLOR]This one is looking more & more like a very serious mental health issue:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/finsbury-park-suspect-thrown-out-10651036

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/finsbury-park-terror-suspect-split-10651753

Is this like the cases where someone under treatment has attacked people trying to kill them?

His mother mentions he was on meds for something but doesn't give any details, most likely due to the investigation. I wonder if this is someone coming off their meds? Mixing meds with booze is a known catalyst to certain serious mental health conditions where violence occurs.

I think I read on today's Mirror that his sister mentioned he talked of suicide, throwing himself into a river and asked for sectioning.

This is a classic stich up, it seems obvious this guy has been framed. The 2 men that ran away were probably his "handlers". Fake media right on que to label it as right wing extremism. Every fairytale has a hero...

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/06/21/16/419BF72700000578-0-image-a-1_1498060413116.jpg

Gary A

22-06-17, 11:58

Hollow, do you have any evidence to back any of this up? You're making some pretty big claims here and all on the basis of one or two eyewitnesses who, in the pandemonium, could easily be mistaken.

Hollow

22-06-17, 13:39

Hollow, do you have any evidence to back any of this up? You're making some pretty big claims here and all on the basis of one or two eyewitnesses who, in the pandemonium, could easily be mistaken.

Gary A, i don't think they are going to spell it out for us, at some point we have to go beyond the headlines and the spin. It's a personal choice as to whether you believe the narratives the government & mainstream media is putting out. I for one don't see these events as random but part of a continuous narrative.

Gary A

22-06-17, 13:59

Gary A, i don't think they are going to spell it out for us, at some point we have to go beyond the headlines and the spin. It's a personal choice as to whether you believe the narratives the government & mainstream media is putting out. I for one don't see these events as random but part of a continuous narrative.

That'll be no then.

saf138

05-07-17, 20:48

MyNameIsTerry

06-07-17, 01:01

Hi Dave thought id pitch in on this brilliant thread to say that the driver of the van lived in an area called Pentwyn which is roughly about a mile an half away from where I live and since what happened you can feel the tension in the air most people ive come across are so on edge and than a few weeks later you have some guy outside the millennium stadium while a Justin beiber concert is going on brandishing a machete screaming hes going to cut up all Muslims. Such a shame that living in the 21st century people are still living in fear for what they believe and stand for. Wether your old, young, female or male Christian, Muslim, jew, Atheist and so on we all have a right to live out our lives without someone cutting it short.

Hopefully it will calm down soon. I think we don't really take things in until they get closer to us and then you feel a strange kind of shock about it all. Like with the first London attack because my GF commutes in Birmingham daily where they travelled from. She saw the police descending on areas not far away from her workplace the next day.

I can't imagine living in a country where they deal with this daily.

Has there been an update on this guy? He was shaping up to be another case of mental health issues from the strange things printed about his life spiralling up to the attack.

saf138

06-07-17, 02:07

Hopefully it will calm down soon. I think we don't really take things in until they get closer to us and then you feel a strange kind of shock about it all. Like with the first London attack because my GF commutes in Birmingham daily where they travelled from. She saw the police descending on areas not far away from her workplace the next day.

I can't imagine living in a country where they deal with this daily.

Has there been an update on this guy? He was shaping up to be another case of mental health issues from the strange things printed about his life spiralling up to the attack.

I'm hoping for things to calm down the people here in cardiff are pretty mellowed out they tend to just get on with day to day life but it makes you wonder what the state of affairs would look like in years to come such a scary outlook.

As for the guy who carried out the attack I havent heard any recent updates on him and your not wrong about his mental state rumour has it that the day before he did what he did he was heard by his neighbor's singling and playing along with his kids and that's typically not how someone behaves before carrying out such an act you would have thought he's be in a high state of stress and anxiety.
Very strange indeed

Bigboyuk

06-07-17, 10:31

Hi Dave thought id pitch in on this brilliant thread to say that the driver of the van lived in an area called Pentwyn which is roughly about a mile an half away from where I live and since what happened you can feel the tension in the air most people ive come across are so on edge and than a few weeks later you have some guy outside the millennium stadium while a Justin beiber concert is going on brandishing a machete screaming hes going to cut up all Muslims. Such a shame that living in the 21st century people are still living in fear for what they believe and stand for. Wether your old, young, female or male Christian, Muslim, jew, Atheist and so on we all have a right to live out our lives without someone cutting it short.
Hi Saf welcome along to the debate :) I mean no one expects this sort of thing in their town or city, Bet Pentwyn isn't that big a population as a guess <10,000 that's over estimating it lol Sure it's shook a community up that was a peacfull,tolerant area to live in, I mean what drives these people to carry out such evil acts towards another fellow human being?

Is it all indocteration, Is it a religious thing, Is it a power thing? etc we can only presume what makes this sort of thing appeal to certain people also could there be underlying MH problems with these people ( I do doubt this though). I mean come on ISIS training camps, many followers on FB/Twitter and I mean many thousands
it all adds up so when attempts are foiled and stopped we are only just touching the surface IMHO Cheers

saf138

06-07-17, 12:14

Bigboyuk

06-07-17, 12:33

That is not a bad guess Dave unfortunately you underestimated it by quite a margin as it is the population of pentwyn stands roughly around the 16,000 mark according to the 2011 Uk Census. It is believed to be one of most densely populated areas in cardiff.

To understand what makes people carry out such evil acts we have to look at both sides of the coin sure you can say religion has a part to play but I dont see religion as the main cause for what's going on I see religion being used as a tool by way of misinterpretation, misunderstanding and blatant lies by so called hate preachers around the globe to brainwash, manipulate and even to confuse young foolish minds to become monsters and to go fight for a cause which they believe is a just cause. On the flip side of the coin We also have to look at where is the funding coming from? Who is pumping millions upon millions to recruit, arm, feed, clothe, shelter and even pay a wage to those who carry out such heinous crimes against humanity.

As for the guy who ploughed into those Muslims at finsbury park mosque I don't believe he was religiously motivated I believe he may have did this out of sheer Anger,desperation and ignorance which is not justifiable at all for what he did. Hi Saf well ok a little out but 16,000 isn't really big as such But sure it's not just one cause that turns people in to crazed humans I think it many causes and not a single cause? As for hate preachers they really shouldnt be allowed to have any platform to put their points over free speech well yes but there has to be line drawn on this. As for funding some say it's oil that has caused this what do you think? I think by seizing assets of such organisations could help quell this evil activity but there isn't a simple answer really is there? Think you are right probably the Guy was totally frustraited who knows thanks for you comments :) Cheers

Hollow

06-07-17, 13:16

On the flip side of the coin We also have to look at where is the funding coming from? Who is pumping millions upon millions to recruit, arm, feed, clothe, shelter and even pay a wage to those who carry out such heinous crimes against humanity.

Saudi Arabia has 'clear link' to UK extremism, report says - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40496778)

'' BBC security correspondent Frank Gardner said he understood the report was "largely finished and sitting on Theresa May's desk", but there was probably a reluctance to publish it because of "embarrassing" content.''

The government and the authorities know exactly where the money comes from and a lot of it goes into their pockets.

saf138

06-07-17, 13:35

Unfortunately we only get told what is the truth through various media outlets rather than seeing it with our own eyes so your right who really knows where all the funding is coming from and what assets are being used so in reality it would make it impossible to seize the funding when there are so many avenues which are not known that fund these criminals.
As for free speech well I'm all for it I believe everyone is free to do as they wish as long as they dont cause any loss,harm or injury to any other person but in this instance I dont look at it as free speech I look at it as hate speech as it goes against the good of mankind.

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Saudi Arabia has 'clear link' to UK extremism, report says - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40496778)

'' BBC security correspondent Frank Gardner said he understood the report was "largely finished and sitting on Theresa May's desk", but there was probably a reluctance to publish it because of "embarrassing" content.''

The government and the authorities know exactly where the money comes from and a lot of it goes into their pockets.

I agree with you Saudi Arabia plays a big role in all this as does many other countries but the media will carefully select its words to ensure they dont open a can of worms By publishing snippets here and snippets there but refuse to point the finger at the real perpetrators. So to the general public who rely on the media for the main soruce of information is only being told what to believe is true.
You see how they use words like "embarrassing conrent"
Trying to water down the situation Just imagine the reaction of the public if they used words like "there was probably a reluctance to publish the reports because s**t could really hit the fan" after it showed who was really involved.

Hollow

06-07-17, 14:04

I agree with you Saudi Arabia plays a big role in all this as does many other countries but the media will carefully select its words to ensure they dont open a can of worms By publishing snippets here and snippets there but refuse to point the finger at the real perpetrators. So to the general public who rely on the media for the main soruce of information is only being told what to believe is true.
You see how they use words like "embarrassing conrent"
Trying to water down the situation Just imagine the reaction of the public if they used words like "there was probably a reluctance to publish the reports because s**t could really hit the fan" after it showed who was really involved.

Exactly! The media plays a big part in the cover up and carefully controls the narrative so that the main players do not get exposed. As you say they publish small pieces of truth here and there just to keep the public confused but won't publish the whole truth. I for one won't believe the BBC if they said the sky is blue, i would go out and see for myself. Remember they covered up for Jimmy Saville until he died and then shut the whole thing down because they knew the whole establishment including the royals were up to their necks in it. Even if people do manage to get to the truth nothing can be done about it as every institution in UK has been compromised. Sad times we live in!

MyNameIsTerry

06-07-17, 14:32

They also use crime to fund their activities. Human trafficking, for instance. They will make their money however but dismantling as much as we can of their means is worth it.

Countries like Saudi Arabia know we can't do much as we need them. The ultimate joke was them sitting on anything to do with human rights.

But it's like Tim Pigott Smith said in Quantum of Solace, "M, if we only deal with nice guys we won't have anyone to trade with!"

And who is a "nice guy"? A lot of people dislike the US for their meddling & destabilising. Now we have Trump they are sneered at even more.

We are happy selling countries like Saudi Arabia weapons. We just have with Turkey and look what they are turning into.

Other countries may view the UK the same but still work with us.

I doubt it matters much to leaders. The plebs jump up & down about right & wrong but it's easy when you don't have to balance the books. Leaders probably just see another suit to talk to rather than a dictator.

Whilst it's about money, things will never change that much.

I wonder with people like ISIS whether it's just good old fashioned human greed & corruption? The foot soldiers believe but the masters aren't so true, despite what they preach?

saf138

06-07-17, 14:58

Remember they covered up for Jimmy Saville until he died and then shut the whole thing down because they knew the whole establishment including the royals were up to their necks in it.

Sad times indeed and who can forget the whole cover up with Seville and many other public figures and how blatantly they do it yet they keep banging on about how unbiased and fair they are LOL oh btw here's 140 odd quid a year for a tv license for the hard honest service you provide.

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I wonder with people like ISIS whether it's just good old fashioned human greed & corruption? The foot soldiers believe but the masters aren't so true, despite what they preach?

The people of Isis are nothing more than useful idiots for a more political cause rather than a religious cause hence why more Muslims have been killed by Isis than any other ethnic and religious group. They are merely pawns on a chess board fighting for the interests of they're masters.

RKJ

06-07-17, 15:00

Bigboyuk

06-07-17, 16:02

Yes, I agree. It's far too much anymore. They need to stop and the terrorists closely monitored on social media. The agencies say that the suspects are on a list but don't act on it. That's what gets me. Prayers to all affected. Yeah agree on the SM sites there's too many extremists on these sites, it's time to delete these accounts, big task yes think it will be, has this started to happen well personally I don't the bosses of the SN sites have made much if any head way in the right direction, and Yet May promised this as one of her things to do. So Is it now becoming a thing that's taken a back seat?

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Sad times indeed and who can forget the whole cover up with Seville and many other public figures and how blatantly they do it yet they keep banging on about how unbiased and fair they are LOL oh btw here's 140 odd quid a year for a tv license for the hard honest service you provide.

---------- Post added at 14:58 ---------- Previous post was at 14:53 ----------

The people of Isis are nothing more than useful idiots for a more political cause rather than a religious cause hence why more Muslims have been killed by Isis than any other ethnic and religious group. They are merely pawns on a chess board fighting for the interests of they're masters. It does make you wonder has the BBC become a corrupt organisastion that used to be the flag ship of tv broadcasting. Big wigs at the BBC probably did know about Saville and his evil practices and did nothing to prevent it truly terrible and unforgivable:mad:

Deluded ISIS Followers well possibly scared that they have to carry out orders well maybe not Political maybe but is it? Controlling to point of taking over the world well it did seem like it but ask your self this question ISIS have never really tried to take over China I wonder why? Cheers

mezzaninedoor

06-07-17, 16:23

[/COLOR] It does make you wonder has the BBC become a corrupt organisastion that used to be the flag ship of tv broadcasting. Big wigs at the BBC probably did know about Saville and his evil practices and did nothing to prevent it truly terrible and unforgivable:mad:

I dont buy that the BBC is a corrupt organisation. The Saville stuff is a multi generational failure of the BBC's HR department in all honesty, they will have had complaints and initially an old school network reaction to it will have prevailed, sadly it was an absolute travesty but not a failure of the whole organisation.

The Saudi Arabia thing is something that really demands a huge News investigation and I think here the BBC is not corrupt but sadly is scared, especially as the Government of the day has a very pally relationship with Saudi Arabia.

There are 3/4 topics demanding big hitting BBC investigations:-
Saudi Arabia funding of terrorism
General UK Arms Sales
Westminister Child Abuse ring
Election Fraud

Hollow

06-07-17, 16:27

[/COLOR] It does make you wonder has the BBC become a corrupt organisastion that used to be the flag ship of tv broadcasting. Big wigs at the BBC probably did know about Saville and his evil practices and did nothing to prevent it truly terrible and unforgivable:mad:

The BBC has always been corrupt but back in the days it was more subtle about it's motives. Now it is better known as the British Bullshit Corporation or the British Buggering Corporation, after the Saville episode. The license fee should be scrapped and an enquiry should be launched to find out why there was a cover up. Also it should not be allowed to investigate itself as any unwanted results will be brushed under the carpet, this often happens in 3rd world countries, we're very close to becoming one. The BBC is out of control and is engaged in subversion not just in Britain but around the world.

saf138

06-07-17, 17:04

Yeah agree on the SM sites there's too many extremists on these sites, it's time to delete these accounts,

Deluded ISIS Followers well possibly scared that they have to carry out orders well maybe not Political maybe but is it? Controlling to point of taking over the world well it did seem like it but ask your self this question ISIS have never really tried to take over China I wonder why? Cheers

Personally I think alot more has to be done I think they have to be made an example of that if they are conspiring to take the rights of humans away than they themselves should not expect any human rights when it comes to justice so it does nothing by deleting accounts except it makes the offenders meet at private gatherings and private talks just to be mind manipulated and brainwashed by some self proclaimed so called scholar.

I don't think Isis members are scared I would rather use the term criminally ignorant of the truth they themselves are seeing the picture through beer goggles they are commiting the worst of crimes thinking that they will be rewarded with everlasting bliss but that is simply not true they are just told that. It has also been reported that countries like Saudi and Qatar were releasing 1000s of prisoners who were on death row to go fight in Syria it was either die as a martyr or be decapitated and if they live they live its like being between a rock and a hard place. Why is that not getting out to the masses how are now they fighting with state of the art weapons? when at the start of the Arab rising you had a small groups here and there bearing AK's and handguns. The arming of Saudi has to stop Now but there's too much money involved at the end off the day war is big money.

Just to add you mentioned why china has not been attacked by isis well I believe sooner or later China will be sucked into it as they are very close friends with Russia as is Iran and as long as the tension between NATO and Russia intensifies things will start to get alot more interesting.

MyNameIsTerry

06-07-17, 17:09

I dont buy that the BBC is a corrupt organisation. The Saville stuff is a multi generational failure of the BBC's HR department in all honesty, they will have had complaints and initially an old school network reaction to it will have prevailed, sadly it was an absolute travesty but not a failure of the whole organisation.

The Saudi Arabia thing is something that really demands a huge News investigation and I think here the BBC is not corrupt but sadly is scared, especially as the Government of the day has a very pally relationship with Saudi Arabia.

There are 3/4 topics demanding big hitting BBC investigations:-
Saudi Arabia funding of terrorism
General UK Arms Sales
Westminister Child Abuse ring
Election Fraud

It's more than a failure by a HR dept. They have less motivation to cover things up than the bosses do.

Saville was one of many cases. They knew about Stuart Hall and his room for play.

Then there was the recent issue with Tony Blackburn which suggested someone more senior than a HR boss was playing games.

It's seems they had a culture that was allowed to exist to keep them happy. And obviously things are different now.

When I was at school we had cases of teachers having sexual contact with children or letching. It was a disciplinary matter and they didn't get fired.

We stopped burying our heads in the sand over it. I still can't believe the existence of PIE being tolerated not so many decades ago.

I suspect the BBC now are the same as any big corporation. They do love overpaying their elite like any other corporation. Maybe not corrupt but they have self interest.

saf138

06-07-17, 17:20

It's more than a failure by a HR dept. They have less motivation to cover things up than the bosses do.

Saville was one of many cases. They knew about Stuart Hall and his room for play.

Then there was the recent issue with Tony Blackburn which suggested someone more senior than a HR boss was playing games.

It's seems they had a culture that was allowed to exist to keep them happy. And obviously things are different now.

When I was at school we had cases of teachers having sexual contact with children or letching. It was a disciplinary matter and they didn't get fired.

We stopped burying our heads in the sand over it. I still can't believe the existence of PIE being tolerated not so many decades ago.

I suspect the BBC now are the same as any big corporation. They do love overpaying their elite like any other corporation. Maybe not corrupt but they have self interest.

Not to mention the cover up of people like greville jenner and Leon Britton remember the whole thing about Elm guest house Why is all that now dead and buried pardon the pun.

MyNameIsTerry

06-07-17, 17:26

Not to mention the cover up of people like greville jenner and Leon Britton remember the whole thing about Elm guest house Why is all that now dead and buried pardon the pun.

Indeed.

Aren't they looking into Heath again since the operation ended?

saf138

06-07-17, 17:38

Indeed.

Aren't they looking into Heath again since the operation ended?

I'm not sure to be honest with you it makes me sick how they still identify him as SIR Edward Heath as if he demands to be respected what a total disrespect to the victims.

Hollow

06-07-17, 18:05

Why is that not getting out to the masses how are now they fighting with state of the art weapons? when at the start of the Arab rising you had a small groups here and there bearing AK's and handguns. The arming of Saudi has to stop Now but there's too much money involved at the end off the day war is big money.

The fake "Arab Spring" was organised by the usual suspects to create chaos in the middle east to get rid of secular nationalist arab leaders like Gaddafi and Assad using fake revolutions. Assad is still holding out with the help of his army and more importantly Russia, but still he is under great pressure. They supplied and armed the "rebels" who are basically ISIS operating under different names. As you say ISIS is being supplied with state of the art weapons by the US and it's lackies, this includes brand new Toyotas Suvs.

http://www.rense.com/1.mpicons/900ISIStoyota.jpg

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Not to mention the cover up of people like greville jenner and Leon Britton remember the whole thing about Elm guest house Why is all that now dead and buried pardon the pun.

There seems to be a pattern, they conviently "die" before they are brought to justice. I doubt this scandal will ever be fully exposed, it involves people at the very top of the pyramid.

saf138

06-07-17, 22:20

There seems to be a pattern, they conviently "die" before they are brought to justice. I doubt this scandal will ever be fully exposed, it involves people at the very top of the pyramid.

Yeh quite ironic huh its amazing how most of em become so ill to stand trial but than mysteriously pop the old clogs I guess dead men tell no tales.

Just take a look at that photo what a sorry bunch now when I look at that I do not see a people who are oppressed if fact it looks like the total opposite and they are the ones doing all the oppressing.