Have had solipsism obsession for 5 years. can i still recover?

[Otulissa]

Hello. Some of you might remember me. I've still got fear of solipsism...five years now. I got a little better for awhile but it was still there. Just feeling like after so long I don't have much hope of living without it. I know better than to try to disprove it. I cannot. But I want to stop thinking about, or feel confident its false again.

So...anyone think I can still pull out? Have you ever had such a convincing obsession you got past?

[eggs]

hey there! fellow solipsism obsessor here. mine is a very on and off thing for 4 years. currently going through the worst relapse ever.

i was actually looking at some of your posts a couple months ago and was very surprised to see you make a new post here (i decided to finally join today)

as for solipsism... look at how real the world is. and if you experience the unreality feeling, a temporary but mind opening solution is to focus on a sense, any sense. next time you eat, think about the taste, texture, smell... all that. what else could you possibly be in except for reality when you realise how real it feels?

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[Chasingmyowntail]

Hey Otulissa,

Thanks for sharing your experience and fears here. I went through what you're going through for 3 long years, and I was there too. It didn't feel like it was ever going to leave. Just an endless relentless pure nightmare, right? The good news is that it does get better, and will for you. There isn't one "quick fix" that I know of, no surefire way to break free in an instance or anything like that, at least from my experience. And probably no single forum post or philosophical answer that's going to relieve your mind of the constant thoughts that have consumed you--and that's exactly what the problem is- thoughts. Your thoughts right now, like mine were at the time I suffered this, are on an overload, a constant battle with itself. Really, it could have been over anything, but it chose this quirky and perplexing philosophy called solipsism to fixate on and waste all of your precious time with. Your OCD/DP/depression/anxiety/whatever it is that you deal with, is to blame, not some philosophy of radical skepticism penned by some ancient philosopher. It's just an idea. But what your mind has found with it (and what countless other minds have found with it) is an escape. Consider this: Somewhere deep down, as preposterous as this might be to admit, your subconscious right now in your life, for some reason, actually wants or maybe even needs to feel like this theory is true. Or at the very least, your imagination has a strong unrelenting desire to explore the realms of that possibility and what it would mean for the nature of your existence if the theory were true. So, one idea is, and of course, not suggesting you try exposure if it makes you uncomfortable, but if you can bear the thought for a minute... You've already gone 5 years you say, living with this obsession of "what if it's true?", so try just testing the theory and really "feeling out" experiencing what it feels like if it were true without any moral judgement or guilt Don't worry, you'll of course be able to return to your rational state of mind where you are "unsure" and go back to your constant obsession--as its always there for you when you need it. In doing so and kind of imagining the scenario that it's true, you'll of course notice that there will be no consequences and nothing in your reality will change, except for maybe that utter sense of despair and pure dread that you feel deep in your gut when those spikes or ruminations occur. I know each and every one of those, I went deep into the rabbit hole myself. Just consider that feeling for a moment if you can, I know it's painful to go there. Most importantly, ask yourself this when you consider those emotions... "Is this (solipsism) really the true nature of things and therefore is the fear and feelings I experience when I think about the theory a natural feeling that I should feel knowing the true nature if in fact this is the true nature? Does this feel "right"? Does it feel pure, does it make sense, does it ground me, does it satisfy me, does it serve its purpose to make my life meaningful and content? Of course, you'll hear a resounding "no"-- an emotional "no", a small but real "no" that although is small and stifled by the reverberating and distorted echo chamber through the halls of what you tell yourself is logic/reason/order/truth/etc in your bizarre new construct, that "no" is still more real than any philosophical argument that can be made. More real than ethics, more real than physics, more real than math, and more real than truth itself. Because without this voice that's saying "no", you are nothing but flesh and a brain. That voice saying
"no" is your emotional, human self. It's what makes you human, just like all of us. It's the thing that believes, that trusts, and that relies on common sense, good will and humanity. You see, no one will ever be able to use logic to approach places and fill the voids of unanswerable mysteries of the Universe. We can only use emotions, faith, trust, and most importantly for you--deduction. Because while you cannot prove that other minds exist, you can deduce from your senses, that they appear to. Now, in order to get out of this "vat" you've stumbled into, you need to realize that somewhere along the way, you've probably without even realizing it, ended up convincing yourself that "by default" it's more reasonable to assume that other minds don't exist. And at this point, you're trying to actually disprove what part of your subconscious mind is already assuming is the nature of reality (only because you've kept repeating the damn thing over and over). So you'll want to re-wire yourself back to assuming that, well, everything is what it seems. And to do this, it will help to trust yourself, trust that you can make a logical deduction-- while maybe not 100% solid proof logical according to occam's razor blah blah, doesn't matter, because when were you ever a cold hard scientist anyway, right? This is life we're talking about, not a graduate exam or science lab. STOP USING LOGIC WITH EVERYTHING. Just trust your senses, they're here for a reason.
Now, you might be surprised what could be waiting for you once you've kind of jumped out of that vat so to speak... if you're like me, it was almost pure nihilism, meaninglessness, nothingness, feeling so insignificant, and I'll say with a smile-- those feelings/thoughts was 1000x better than the solipsism and I gradually phased out of it and life was purposeful again. It actually makes perfect sense (that transition from solipsism into nihilism), because both are essentially opposites of another. As for solipsism, once you've shed this time-wasting, OCD-loving "theory", you'll realize that what's behind it is perhaps a subconscious need to feel special and unique, to feel safe, to feel untouched and unhurt by other "real" people around you, maybe to escape something in your life. Even though you probably think you utterly hate and want to reject this solipsism thing and what its "imaginary" consequences would mean, there's maybe a part of you that's captivated by it, or at the very least needs to explore this cosmic possibility out of pure boredom, curiosity, unsatisfactory of everyday life. From my experience, you will not likely "escape" this thing by pondering it or by arguing away with it or even by trying to reject it. You will "escape" it by taking action, recognizing your feelings, and trying to better yourself. You need others in your life. You need fulfillment, fun, interests, and most importantly, love. Without love, we are alone, maybe not literally but figuratively.
You need to replace this relentless mental exercise that causes anguish with other pursuits and interests that cause growth and satisfaction. You need to immerse yourself. Walk into the fire. Become human again. You need to become VULNERABLE. Realize you are mortal and fragile and sensitive and that you need other people in your life and that you need to trust yourself and the ones around you. Trust life. It will be a journey but a marvelous one, because you will look back and be able to tell others how you escaped this prison that you created, and kind of laugh back at it and say "man, I could have been at least doing lsd and taking shrooms, travelling the world, etc etc and experience this stuff as a wild hallucination but instead I actually went head first into an absurd loglcal construct that I convinced myself of for 5 years and sulked in my bedroom about lolol"... You will be able to look back at this time, and of course not regret it, because it will have actually shaped your journey. I don't regret a single moment of the anguish and despair that I went through for 3 years with this, because it actually helped me build a strong foundation of faith, spirituality and self love. I'm not a religious nut or guru or anything, far from it. Just that my journey led me to feel very content with my developed world views. I actually borrowed a more subtle take on the theory-but just a sprinkle (like subjective reality and the idea of a collective unconscious) and added doses of other things that I actually believe and its become my view of the world around me. You see, you may be in a transition period of your worldviews, faith, spirituality, philosophical pursuit, meaning of life, what have you. And it's a scary transition, but this may just the process your mind has to go through (even though its a long 5 years of mental torment) in order to put some new ideas together. Eventually, something will hit and you'll realize solipsism (nor any existential philosophy) isn't meant to be taken literally, but rather a metaphor for describing something or someone totally self-absorbed and utterly narcissistic and why would you want to uphold or concern yourself with a theory/trait like that? :D

Sorry for the unformatted rant-style response, but it helps me to just go stream of conscious with these kinds of things. Also, please let me know if you ever need any support or to chat regarding this matter, as I could go off at lengths as you can see here haha.. I know how distressing this obsession can be. After defeating this thing myself, I've made it a priority to try and reach out other people who are stuck there and offering a helping hand if they need one.

Best wishes, and keep us posted on your journey.

[Otulissa]

Yes, you're right in that no one thing stops it. And while I know the arguements against are logical they don't stop it. I'm kind of just accepting I can't out logic this problem.
Though I always get nervous when people talk about reading about solipsism and getting the obsession. The idea popped in my head one day, and later I learned about the philosophy term. I've seen plenty of people that said they accepted it was possible, and only then they got better. So...I've been trying to stop the compulsive convincing myself it isn't true, just leave it alone. I'm terrified it might last forever and I know that's not helping me get over it though.

[Chasingmyowntail]

Yes, you're right in that no one thing stops it. And while I know the arguements against are logical they don't stop it. I'm kind of just accepting I can't out logic this problem.
Though I always get nervous when people talk about reading about solipsism and getting the obsession. The idea popped in my head one day, and later I learned about the philosophy term. I've seen plenty of people that said they accepted it was possible, and only then they got better. So...I've been trying to stop the compulsive convincing myself it isn't true, just leave it alone. I'm terrified it might last forever and I know that's not helping me get over it though.

There you go, well said re: you can't outlogoc it and obsessively trying to convince yourself it isnt true. If you were confident enough that its truly just rubbish and waste of mental energy, you wouldnt need to keep repeating to yourself that its not true.

Imagine someone that had a thought one day that an actual real life demon is hiding in the grocery store down the street, and for five years straight, the person locked their doors, closed their shades and repeatedly said in their head "There is NOT a demon at the grocery store right now" over and over and over and over and oooover. (them of course youd be obsessed with demons and might think there is one there) That's pretty much what you've been doing for 5 years, except replace "demon in grocery store" for some weird philosophical theory called "solipsism"!

Here's what really kinda sealed it for me-- basically you have no reason to believe the theory is true and that other minds arent real... ya know? Just like no reason to beliebe in the grocery store demon. :)

[Otulissa]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Even deciding to view it that way doesnt stop the doubt or anxiety. Did that just take time to die down with you? All the bad feelings? Like you said I need to stop chasing the need to feel a certain way... but I want to at least hope this wont be a bother forever.

[Chasingmyowntail]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Even deciding to view it that way doesnt stop the doubt or anxiety. Did that just take time to die down with you? All the bad feelings? Like you said I need to stop chasing the need to feel a certain way... but I want to at least hope this wont be a bother forever.

Ugh, yeah I hear you. I'm not gonna lie. It wasn't easy. It was without a doubt the most difficult time in my life and the hardest thing to slip out of. It took changing my life entirely and just totally re-focusing my entire purpose in life. I thought my case was hopeless and that I was going to lose my mind. My mom even thought I was kind of losing it and was very concerned. My ocd made it so bad that I couldnt even bare the thought of seeing a therapist or take meds for it cuz that would "be a symbol that it won" or whatever.

And I know what you mean with the anxiety and point of feeling doubt etc. it kinda goes through phases right? At one point, you just have a hard time thinking you may ever feel youll "believe in reality again"... almost realizing wow ive trapped myself too far in that im just stuck here in limbo forever. I remember that. Very well. It's depressing, sad, lonely, terrifying, and often numb. It's okay. It's okay to feel this way.

Whatever it is that's causing you all of this, there's a reason. Something in your life that you're running from or preventing yourself from doing/being/feeling. Ask yourself what that is.

You're clearly a passionate deep creative thinker (like most of us that suffer this), but youre putting all of your creative energy into a bankrupt philosophy and its dragging you down. Your OCD / anxiety is having a heyday with it because its an endless subject. If you can manage to replace the theory with something else to think/obsess/ponder/fill your mind with, you can transition. Running to help family w sonething right now... more later... post to be continued...

[Otulissa]

Is it like what the second post on this says?
http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/1821-please-help-no-where-to-turn/?hl=gstile#entry20989
Ive been trying to follow that advice....

[Chasingmyowntail]

Is it like what the second post on this says?
http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/1821-please-help-no-where-to-turn/?hl=gstile#entry20989
Ive been trying to follow that advice....

I think that's a great post, and while you may not need to follow the advice to a tee, there are some good tips such as forcing other things to occupy your mind / time, and putting aside the whole thought that not being concerned with the theory means your somehow being ignorant or "fake" as the op says.

But yeah, in general, these are valid points. Just don't go taking ppl at face value or being black or white about it all. What works for some people may not work for others and vice versa, were all programmed, triggered, etc differently in many ways. But yes, it would be worth trying out that advice. Remember that being black or white, yes or no, 0 or 1, on or off, about things is prob what got you into this crisis in the first place. Life is not black or white or on or off, its shades and multicolors. Where I found myself in the last days of my crisis in terms of mentally percieving the theory, was if i remember correctly, somewhere between embracing the unknown (essentially realizing ill never know if its true or not and just kind of realizing that i just dont have any reason to belueve the theory is true. Which to me kind of just translated to "sure i cant be suuuuper sure, but ehh its most likely not true just cuz its probably not amd lets leave it at that. I sort of paid it less importance, dumbed it down and turned inward about my own personal life and pursuits rather than about the nature of reality and turned outwards to important ppl in my life and meeting new ppl instead of looking for answers etc.

Trust me that taking action can work wonders. Just action. Any action. Learn an instrument or new language. Go on an adventure. Do gardening. Do something crazy and daring with friends, prank calls etc, find new music, etc. You may one day look back and miss these forums lol but you may also find yourself helping people who went through what you did.

Life: so many possibilities and potential to experience and such little time. Life is precious, get out there and shake things up! Push yourself out of your comfort zone. Stop taking the fabrics of reality so seriously and pretentiously and get silly. No seriously. Ocd/theories/this forum aside, we all need morr sillyness in our liiiiiivessssss. Take a cold shower. Buy a pet. Create an fb event for a public pillow fight in your house and invite a bunch of random ppl. Put together a scavenger hunt. Switch careers / goals randomly. Help the homeless. So many things you can do. Get creative, be playful and take your life back.

[eggs]

honestly i have no idea how to see the idea as irrational. sometimes i think to myself "isn't it easier that i just made all this up" rather than there be a physical reality

anyone else?

[Otulissa]

Ive had that too eggs. As odd as it is.
Chasing, do you think though that even if I just try to leave it alone, put up with all the weird feelings and live life that one day it will be gone for me too? I mean, I dont want to be a solipsist, its not something I want to believe in. I just feel so stuck with it that what scares me most is that this is going to always be here. Even when I see people like you recover there is that worry that it isnt going to be me.

[Chasingmyowntail]

honestly i have no idea how to see the idea as irrational. sometimes i think to myself "isn't it easier that i just made all this up" rather than there be a physical reality

anyone else?

Just like you're reading the words I thought consistently back in 2008. I also got to a place where I just could not see reality and the world around me as outside of my mind anymore. That sentiment is so familiar. It was man, well for the whole first year or so, I was just trying to convince myself that it can't be possible and to "not worry about it being true", and then somewhere along the line like magic, I was looking in from the other side. I was in it, I had internalized it, like I imagine you guys are both experiencing, and I couldn't quite seem to figure out how to escape and NOT see the world as a dream or reality as just in my head. It seemed just natural, and it almost felt perverted that I felt that way, like I should feel ashamed. When people talked about science and the universe, I shunned and thought to myself how silly they are for thinking anything exists as objective reality outside of their minds-- and what a bizarre concept at that!

Many years later, and now while I don't necessarily believe there's this cartoon-ish grade book version of objective reality that we've been led to believe exists, I also don't believe its quite a figment of our imagination. I think there are internal AND external things. Maybe more internal than external, or maybe we don't see everything or the whole picture. And you see, i say we not I, because by default, I've returned to believing in people and other minds and it's a more than natural outlook for me, just as it was before I discovered the theory and went through the existential crisis. Every now and then, I think of it and I can make myself "go there" a little bit for a few seconds and feel that same feeling but I return right back to normal, because my OCD has discovered other more "productive" thoughts to concern itself with. lol

This is really about ocd/anxiety and until we see that, we're all lost. We've been programmed since birth to trust that the world around us is real, we are hard wired to communicate with others with consideration that they are just like us as full conscious beings. Just because a theory can mess with our head and suck us into an existential void, it doesn't make that hard wired truth of the world existing around us not real. Otherwise you guys wouldn't be visiting this forum if you all of the sudden fully believed with every ounce that only your mind exists.

Because, of course you would not walk into a crowded restaurant, pull down your pants and take a shit onto the floor right there in front of everyone. That's why. Your primal mind knows the world exists around you, so it wouldn't let you do that stuff unless of course you're on some crazy drugs or brain damaged, etc. You believe common sense things in your most basic mind deeper than you think. It's hardwired in us. It's just your OCD and depression and anxiety that interferes with your logical, intellectual mind and infects that area with doubt and worry. OCD can be an incredibly brilliant trickster and make you think you believe something when you really don't. It can make us question our nature, every thought, word, action. We know this, but the theory is so captivating, right, that it becomes everything. Well, it's not everything if you don't want to focus on it or let it be everything. Be gentle with yourselves. Give your mind some distance from philosophy and give yourself a break. But as that post you mentioned said, don't just sit at home and try to chill and do nothing. You NEED to do things, pick your life back up and start taking action. Or your mind will keep taking action for you. I hope that makes sense?

---------- Post added at 12:56 ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 ----------


Ive had that too eggs. As odd as it is.
Chasing, do you think though that even if I just try to leave it alone, put up with all the weird feelings and live life that one day it will be gone for me too? I mean, I dont want to be a solipsist, its not something I want to believe in. I just feel so stuck with it that what scares me most is that this is going to always be here. Even when I see people like you recover there is that worry that it isnt going to be me.

Yes, I do think so. Like even just listen to your question. Seriously, just take it apart into pieces.... DO YOU THINK THAT (...words, words, words...) IF I LIVE LIFE..."? You already know you aren't living life the way you want right now. So don't consider or hypothesize whether you should or shouldnt do something or if it will be like this if you do this. Just do it. Seriously. This goes for anything. The reason such a small percentage of us eat healthy and work out regularly or save money or reach goals etc etc (not that im competent at any of this haha), is because we rationalize ourselves out of everything. There's always a reason why maybe we shouldn't "live life"! lol This is one more reason for you right now they way you are considering this question.

So there are two options I see it in terms of where your mind can go...

A.) you can actually sit and take more time than you've taken already (5 years) and really just try and work things out--maybe just a little more than you have, just trying to get deeper and deeper into the workings of this theory/problem and really wonder, truly deeply wonder whether you will "recover" and/or how long it will take. You can do endless research on forums and articles and wikipedia and find out how others discovered or dealt with it and compare their situations to yours. You can keep thinking of it as "this little secretive thing" you have, a tragic problem that most people around you will never understand or never deal with and keep making yourself different from them and cut off the outside world. You can postulate and meditate on whether or not you truly deeply believe the theory or if it's just ocd or just a phase or whatever. You can wake up every day and finish off where you were the night before in your ponderings, worryings and logical constructs, and remind yourself of "your" problem, your issue and how it continues to effect you. Every day. For exactly as long as you want.

or

B) You can choose to move forward. Whatever that means for you. Move forward in whatever goals, dreams, hopes, aspirations you've had before this thought came into your head. Even if baby steps at a time. You can choose engagement, energy, life, passion, humor, love, connection, and warmth. It's always going to be there for you, because it's a part of all of us as humans. We're never doomed or tied to some destiny. We have free will, and more importantly (because ppl can even debate free will), you have the potential for change and growth. That will never go away. But it's a muscle and you need to train yourself to work out those kinks and strengthen those inactive muscles that haven't been able to move right since you started thinking and worrying about a nonsense theory. :)

It's your choice. Either way, you will be safe and fine, and the world around you will still be relevant and real. But I guarantee you life will feel more real and you eventually won't feel stuck if you choose B. Just a matter of whether you want worry and dread or pleasure and life.

---------- Post added at 14:08 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------

I want to add one more thing. The advice of others on forums like this can absolutely provide some good advice, esp from us ppl who have been there and gotten out of it. However, and this is really important... These ideas can only be a catalyst, a starting point, or if anything, inspiration or different ways to look at where you are. Only you know what it takes to move your life forward and what drives you to make a change. Even if you think you don't know, you really do. You just have to find your purpose. Do some soul searching. Figure out what it is you really want out of this life, and chart out steps to make it happen. You're stuck in your mind, because you're stuck in life for some reason. That's where I was at least. And re-purposing my entire life (I even made a 20 year plan etc) helped me move out of the endless pit. I'm talking epic shit, like what do you really want out of your experience. We don't know much about our lives or the universe or the future, but we know we're here and we have whatever we need to make the best of it. So with all these tools and resources, what are you going to plan and create and do? It's actually incredibly exciting and fun if you look at like starting over and just finding your purpose. Let this daunting strange phase in your life be the jumping off point for something marvelous, something magical. Let this dark place be a phase that you'll one day look back and realize that it was painful, but somehow essential for you to rise from the darkness and become the person you will soon be. Trust me. You got this.

Oh and you're not "gonna be a solipsist" haha don't worry. Nobody willfully decides to just believe that, you can't, we're not wired like that. Probably feels like you are at this point, but that's just your OCD and anxiety that makes you feel that way. Even the most radical schools of ancient Hindu thought who claimed to reject all notions of existence outside of the mind knew it was all just a bunch of bs, and more of a metaphor for life, rather than to be taken seriously. You're not an actual solipsist, no one really is, because it doesn't fit within out human nature and wiring. We're social animals.

---------- Post added at 16:54 ---------- Previous post was at 14:08 ----------

btw, i realized i may have sounded a little harsh on some of my response in that last post.. was meant to speak kind of collectively to all people's ocd about this and really look at the issue in the eye and break down the rationalization, wasn't trying to talk your issues down or come off as judgy.. so sorry if it came off like that.

[eggs]

been dealing with this for 4 years, fed up...

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