Fire Safety tests How Safe Are High Rises A Tonight Special

[Bigboyuk]

Those who are interested do watch this shocking report ITV 19:30 or ITV +1 on 20:30 or itv hub cheers Watched it and was shocked that fire safety assessments aren't carried out as often as they should be and the fire service no longer does this the government has out side companies to do these risk assesments it used to be over 2hrs 45 mins now the assesments are done in 45 mins says the councils that allow these people to get back to their normal job In Germany it's a different matter altogether and a lot better for everyone don't want to spoil the programme for any one else who want to watch it Cheers

[bottleblond]

I've set that to record Bboy. I think it will be very enlightening.

[Bigboyuk]

Let me know what you think when you have watched it Cheers bb :)

[bottleblond]

I will do!. I'll probably watch it about half past nine so will pop back after that. :yesyes:

[Bigboyuk]

I will do!. I'll probably watch it about half past nine so will pop back after that. :yesyes: Ok And you will be enlightened and shocked at the findings Cheers

[bottleblond]

I'm so mad because it didn't record. I won't even be able to get it on catch up until tomorrow I would imagine. :mad:

[saf138]

Cant believe I missed it hopefully ill catch it on catch up. why is it in the modern age there is no value put on human lives anymore that old saying that money makes the world go round must have some truth to it.

[Bigboyuk]

Cant believe I missed it hopefully ill catch it on catch up. why is it in the modern age there is no value put on human lives anymore that old saying that money makes the world go round must have some truth to it. Hi Saf well it is on Catch Up but it's not titled Tonight even though the EPG on the tv last night called it tonight so if you put tonight in the search box it will bring up Tonight At The London Paladium which obviously is NOT the show in question Have watched it again just incase I have missed anything really well worth watching It's actually a very shocking report as hopefully you and bb will find out. I will have a look and get the correct title for every one who is interested in watching it :) Ok It's a bit long winded but I found it again ok go to ITV HUB click on shows> Get to last 5 of the 'T' 's and it's is called tonight you click on Tonight and the Title is Fire How Safe Are Our High-Rises Phew ITV Need to make it easier than that to find a programme but still worth the effort to watch it Yeah I thought that to Saf it seems many buildings including High Rise buildings are affected the problem is huge and has been going on for years :eek:Let me know what you think Just tried searching for it the normal way by typing in Fire How Safe Are our High-Rises and nothing showed up so it's long way round or nothing, will be calling ITV HUB help line and raise a complaint Cheers

[bottleblond]

Thanks for that Bboy because I couldn't find it. Will go see if I can get it now.

[Bigboyuk]

I'm so mad because it didn't record. I won't even be able to get it on catch up until tomorrow I would imagine. :mad: bb I too have had the same problem with tv shows not recording on my pvr and they too were ITV shows so nothing new there it's not your recorder at fault it's some thing to do with the coding that is sent out over the air waves which instructs your PVR when to start a programme and when to stop recording but it's a pain! Cheers

---------- Post added at 21:22 ---------- Previous post was at 21:14 ----------


Thanks for that Bboy because I couldn't find it. Will go see if I can get it now.Np bb it is there but it's a pain to find it it's under shows 'T' if you get stuck let me know Cheers

[saf138]

Cheers Dave I finally found it your programme navigational skills was tip top lol ill report back once I watched it.

[bottleblond]

I don't even know where to begin about this one. It was failure after failure after failure. Grenfell tower was completely avoidable had councils not decided to go with the cheapest tender offered.

These failings have been going on since the 50/60's. It was proven years ago that these products were dangerous eg: highly flammable but not only are they still being manufactured but still being used in social housing for insulation. That's completely inhumane.

These people need answers, they needs the fire safety records that I am quite sure will be 'altered' before being released to the public.

In my books, this should be a criminal investigation. :lac:

[Bigboyuk]

Cheers Dave I finally found it your programme navigational skills was tip top lol ill report back once I watched it.
Hey Np Saf :yesyes: Tbh though it should have been easy just to search for it ITV have messed up again Yeah look forward to your comments Cheers

---------- Post added at 22:21 ---------- Previous post was at 22:08 ----------


I don't even know where to begin about this one. It was failure after failure after failure. Grenfell tower was completely avoidable had councils not decided to go with the cheapest tender offered.

These failings have been going on since the 50/60's. It was proven years ago that these products were dangerous eg: highly flammable but not only are they still being manufactured but still being used in social housing for insulation. That's completely inhumane.

These people need answers, they needs the fire safety records that I am quite sure will be 'altered' before being released to the public.

In my books, this should be a criminal investigation. :lac: bb A total failure I mean taking routine fire testing away from the Fire Service and allowing the government to take over this important task is criminal and that Artitech Guy was not listened to is insane You obviously saw How Germany handles it top notch across the board Yes and it will be a criminal investigation too to me the first people to go in the dock should be the manufactures of this dangerous cladding who fitted it to many bulidings across the Uk second should be the councils involved in signing off the works as safe as they clearly wernt. Yes those victims of Grenfell deserve a full and througher enquirery No cover ups Thanks for your comments bb Cheers

[saf138]

Oh my the incompetence is overwhelming I would even go as far as to say this is corporate manslaughter. I get that the government has made drastic cuts over the years but you can't play Russian roulette with human lives they should spend more money on the safety of the british public rather than spending 100s of thousands on stupid things like sculptures that sit outside city halls. Grrrrr

[Bigboyuk]

Oh my the incompetence is overwhelming I would even go as far as to say this is corporate manslaughter. I get that the government has made drastic cuts over the years but you can't play Russian roulette with human lives they should spend more money on the safety of the british public rather than spending 100s of thousands on stupid things like sculptures that sit outside city halls. Grrrrr Saf totally agree but I actually don't get the cuts not just lack of funding but in the number of checks time wise like a full assessment should take many hrs as recommended by the fire service down to paltrey 45 mins after this fire well everything is going to be re thought and I can see huge riots taking place if the residents get bull shit and a watered down enquiery truly a serious lack of common sense on many peoples (high up people) parts I am gob smacked and words fail me thanks for your input on this Cheers

[saf138]

Definately my friend how on earth can you carry out a fire assessment on high rise buildings in 45 mins I could now just imagine some jobsworth with a clipboard ticking the boxes away like there's no Tommorow. Its beyond incompetence its lack of due care and laziness and I guarantee you Dave if the enquiry is commisioned by the government which it will there will Definately be a watered down enquiry. I don't even accept the narrative about only 80 people had died I would say you could put that figure well into the hundreds considering the fire started at night making the building full of people. It is believed that a fireman came out and said they found 40 bodies in 1 flat so how can 80 dead be the "official" figure.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Did the products pass safety regs at the time? If the answer is yes, the issue should be the regs surely?

We used to freely use asbestos. We found out it was dangerous. Regs were changed. How could you retrospectively argue it was dangerous when expected safety standards are passed on a product?

It's up to our government to protect us from dangerous products.

[saf138]

Did the products pass safety regs at the time? If the answer is yes, the issue should be the regs surely?

We used to freely use asbestos. We found out it was dangerous. Regs were changed. How could you retrospectively argue it was dangerous when expected safety standards are passed on a product?

It's up to our government to protect us from dangerous products.

I'm afraid the cladding used on high rise buildings did in fact fail safety regulations and the programme that was aired on ITV mentioned that on 4 occasions (1973, 1991, 1999 and 2009) a high leisure centre and 3 high rise tower blocks went up in flames killing multiple people all had the same external cladding which was the cause for such infernos. It took only 4 and half minutes for 1 building to be engulfed in flames. So my argument is that the government knew that the cause for those fires was the external cladding yet not only left the cladding on buildings that already had it but also continued to use such cladding on buildings.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Thanks, I haven't seen the programme.

So, did the product itself pass manufacturing regs?

Then if those fires proved the product was a failure were the building safety regs changed to prevent further use of them? And were the HSE taking it to the manufacturer to remove the product from the market?

This is where I struggle with this. Who has allowed this product to even be fitted if they knew it was a fail? The safety regs at the buildings then become the next issue.

It's important because were the manufacturer unaware? Have the HSE not acted to make changes to prevent future occurances?

The government has changed, the councils have changed. But people like the HSE were there all the time and supposed to be doing their jobs just as local safety inspection isn't subject to politics. Have the government hamstrung the HSE?

[Bigboyuk]

Definately my friend how on earth can you carry out a fire assessment on high rise buildings in 45 mins I could now just imagine some jobsworth with a clipboard ticking the boxes away like there's no Tommorow. Its beyond incompetence its lack of due care and laziness and I guarantee you Dave if the enquiry is commisioned by the government which it will there will Definately be a watered down enquiry. I don't even accept the narrative about only 80 people had died I would say you could put that figure well into the hundreds considering the fire started at night making the building full of people. It is believed that a fireman came out and said they found 40 bodies in 1 flat so how can 80 dead be the "official" figure. It's not possible to do and as it said in council guide lines by reducing the time spent on these assessments means the person can quickly resume his 'normal' job which could mean they aren't really trained in fire risk assesments as we saw on the programme you can complete a 5 day course in fire risk assesments and get a cert to say you can now peform these assesments as a qualified person :eek: I couldn't believe it when I heard that :huh: Yes the council will deffo try and cover their back I can see many emails and or docs being got rid of which is wrong, but what goes round, will come round. Thanks for your comments mate :) Cheers

---------- Post added at 11:11 ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 ----------


Thanks, I haven't seen the programme.

So, did the product itself pass manufacturing regs?

Then if those fires proved the product was a failure were the building safety regs changed to prevent further use of them? And were the HSE taking it to the manufacturer to remove the product from the market?

This is where I struggle with this. Who has allowed this product to even be fitted if they knew it was a fail? The safety regs at the buildings then become the next issue.

It's important because were the manufacturer unaware? Have the HSE not acted to make changes to prevent future occurances?

The government has changed, the councils have changed. But people like the HSE were there all the time and supposed to be doing their jobs just as local safety inspection isn't subject to politics. Have the government hamstrung the HSE? That's a good point Terry but it wasn't mentioned on the programme (which I recommend you to watch) As for the manufacturer (Ryndon's)knowing that the material was indeed posing a fire risk we cant say, Apparently on the programme, regs were changed and updated each time there was a fire in a high rise block. so were they changed enough to stop the use of the dangerous cladding and now because of Grenfell The whole regs should be changed and the use of the cladding 'Banned' for use in future buildings and refurbs, but will it??? I doubt this very much
As for HSE Iam surprised that they haven't got involved as it was a major incident at Grenfell Unless I have missed something they haven't been called in?? Terry if you have 30 mins to spare it's well worth watching Cheers

---------- Post added at 11:25 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------


I'm afraid the cladding used on high rise buildings did in fact fail safety regulations and the programme that was aired on ITV mentioned that on 4 occasions (1973, 1991, 1999 and 2009) a high leisure centre and 3 high rise tower blocks went up in flames killing multiple people all had the same external cladding which was the cause for such infernos. It took only 4 and half minutes for 1 building to be engulfed in flames. So my argument is that the government knew that the cause for those fires was the external cladding yet not only left the cladding on buildings that already had it but also continued to use such cladding on buildings. Yes and 3 decades have since gone and yet this suspect cladding is still being used (as a cheaper but much more dangerous product) The product should have been banned years ago you know the deeper you delve in to this the worse it gets, I hope residents of Grenfell will do their 'own' research too on this matter Edit: There is another programme aired on Thursday the 15 July 2 days after this fire with special guests in the studio where a councillor for the borough many times raised issues with the borough council who turned a blind eye to residents concerns. so any one who watched the first programme do watch the other again very shocking and damning Thank you. Cheers

[saf138]

Yes and 3 decades have since gone and yet this suspect cladding is still being used (as a cheaper but much more dangerous product)

That's why I used the term Corporate manslaughter the construction company Rydon who won the £10m contract to carry out the refurbishment would install the cheaper more flammable cladding saving just under £300,000 no sprinkler system was installed saving £200,000 there were only a handful of fire alarms scattered through the building and not every flat so in a way you could understand the savings would have been in some way justifiable if they knew the refurbishment was in danger of going over budget however the whole project that was carried out came to a grand total of £8.6m.

I would also like to point out that even though the cladding was known to be dangerous by the authorities they were assured by the fact that the building was designed to contain fires and that the fire service would have enough time to get in and combat the fire before it spread and that's why they had a stay put policy for the residents but you cant rely on designs that were in place before any major refurbishments it needed stringent testing on the whole building starting from scratch and unfortunately that just didn't happen.

[Bigboyuk]

That's why I used the term Corporate manslaughter the construction company Rydon who won the £10m contract to carry out the refurbishment would install the cheaper more flammable cladding saving just under £300,000 no sprinkler system was installed saving £200,000 there were only a handful of fire alarms scattered through the building and not every flat so in a way you could understand the savings would have been in some way justifiable if they knew the refurbishment was in danger of going over budget however the whole project that was carried out came to a grand total of £8.6m.

I would also like to point out that even though the cladding was known to be dangerous by the authorities they were assured by the fact that the building was designed to contain fires and that the fire service would have enough time to get in and combat the fire before it spread and that's why they had a stay put policy for the residents but you cant rely on designs that were in place before any major refurbishments it needed stringent testing on the whole building starting from scratch and unfortunately that just didn't happen. I think that term is quite correct and justifiable in these circumstances and there is no getting out of it, it is what it is.

Yeah but Rydon only did what they were asked to do, but did they say well we do other cladding it's a bit more expensive but will be ultimately a safer product in the long term and come on the tower block was in one of the richest parts of London, Fire Prevention in such a populated area should have been top priority In the second Tonight programme which I have just watched both the council for the area and the tower block management company declined to appear on that programme which to me is very strange.

A total over haul of regs and fire legistraition must now happen and older blocks must be brought up to date costly for sure but it has to happen as all councils must now make fire assesments available to all residents in all blocks this too should not be a guide line but mandatory across the country any thing less just wont cut it You know maybe you haven't read my whole thread, but will mention it again I work in a small shop in a small town ok, it has 10 fire extinguisers both water and CO 2 ones several fire alarm call points and a 4 zone fire panel, many smoke detectors through out the shop and store room, emergency lighting through out the building and 3 clearly marked and lit fire exits ,the shop never gets busy but I do feel safe working there, the residents at Grenfell lived in this tower block and have been let down by the management company and the borough council, simple and there's no escaping from that :mad: Cheers

[saf138]

I agree what a damn shame for the residents of grenfell tower it now seems you have multiple parties scrambling to blame each other whilst the victims are still waiting for honest answers which they are not getting.

[Bigboyuk]

I agree what a damn shame for the residents of grenfell tower it now seems you have multiple parties scrambling to blame each other whilst the victims are still waiting for honest answers which they are not getting. Yeah for sure and they are 'running' scared oh will we be found out what can we do so we don't get the blame. It is not good enough the Council must be held responsible as must the managing company who probably manages many high rise towers in the area Big corners were cut just to save money it stinks mate Deffo think there is solidarity amongst the tenants And don't think they will give up either. Honesty and justice must prevail on this horrific disaster for all residents of tower blocks across the country Cheers

[saf138]

And to top it all off you now have the conspiracy theorists coming out with all kinds of claims which really doesn't help the matter at all as for honesty and justice prevailing I dont think it will happen yes you might get the odd sacking here and there and a few stepping downs here and there but what good is it when the sweeping brushes were already out mere days after the tragedy? And The government can keep barking on about "how we should learn a lesson from past mistakes" well past mistakes have been happening for far too long and far too often its time laws were put in place for authoritative bodies to be responsible for such actions and dealt with accordingly with those laws. What do you think a tad over the top?

[Bigboyuk]

And to top it all off you now have the conspiracy theorists coming out with all kinds of claims which really doesn't help the matter at all as for honesty and justice prevailing I dont think it will happen yes you might get the odd sacking here and there and a few stepping downs here and there but what good is it when the sweeping brushes were already out mere days after the tragedy? And The government can keep barking on about "how we should learn a lesson from past mistakes" well past mistakes have been happening for far too long and far too often its time laws were put in place for authoritative bodies to be responsible for such actions and dealt with accordingly with those laws. What do you think a tad over the top? I think you are right on this very few will get the sack like you say others will either step down and leave and get a bonus pay out for leaving which is so damn corrupt and others will be moved to other depts. never to be seen again.

Tbh the whole lot should be gone and a fresh start but you know, I know it's not going to happen which is a shame, You only have to look at the Social Services being allowed to make mistake after mistake it took a long time for anything properly to change with reasurances that new measures and procedures have been put in place Yeah who were they kidding. Yeah I do think it's a tad OTT People will be covering their own backs on this and I hope the enquiery will show the failures for what they are. Cheers

[MyNameIsTerry]

As for the manufacturer (Ryndon's)knowing that the material was indeed posing a fire risk we cant say, Apparently on the programme, regs were changed and updated each time there was a fire in a high rise block. so were they changed enough to stop the use of the dangerous cladding and now because of Grenfell The whole regs should be changed and the use of the cladding 'Banned' for use in future buildings and refurbs, but will it??? I doubt this very much

But it should already be banned. If the authorities are happy with it being made for this purpose, they should be investigated.

Industry regs for safety change and they don't always apply them retrospectively. When I worked in the elec industry I saw many reg changes and some were safety related. They didn't apply them retrospectively.

For instance, we would still find meters underneath sinks close to water pipes. We would fnd meters at ceiling height that were prepayment (ours is!). When they recert these meters, they don't report this for any change and the location is often known and easily retrievable (done data retreival like that many times).

So, if the regs changed they need to explain whether there was a clause to retrospectively apply it and a period of expected works for this. Such works were overseen by the regulators in the elec market when we did anything like this.

This is why I'm waiting to hear about things like this.

---------- Post added at 01:39 ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 ----------


There is another programme aired on Thursday the 15 July 2 days after this fire with special guests in the studio where a councillor for the borough many times raised issues with the borough council who turned a blind eye to residents concerns. so any one who watched the first programme do watch the other again very shocking and damning Thank you. Cheers

The councillor also turned a blind eye. He/she was part of that council.

If I saw a trip hazard, I would report it and forget about it hence leaving it in someone's hands.

If I saw a catastrophic risk to hundreds of human lives...

That councillor should be facing the same investigation in my eyes.

[Bigboyuk]

But it should already be banned. If the authorities are happy with it being made for this purpose, they should be investigated.

Industry regs for safety change and they don't always apply them retrospectively. When I worked in the elec industry I saw many reg changes and some were safety related. They didn't apply them retrospectively.

For instance, we would still find meters underneath sinks close to water pipes. We would fnd meters at ceiling height that were prepayment (ours is!). When they recert these meters, they don't report this for any change and the location is often known and easily retrievable (done data retreival like that many times).

So, if the regs changed they need to explain whether there was a clause to retrospectively apply it and a period of expected works for this. Such works were overseen by the regulators in the elec market when we did anything like this.

This is why I'm waiting to hear about things like this.

---------- Post added at 01:39 ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 ----------



The councillor also turned a blind eye. He/she was part of that council.

If I saw a trip hazard, I would report it and forget about it hence leaving it in someone's hands.

If I saw a catastrophic risk to hundreds of human lives...

That councillor should be facing the same investigation in my eyes.
Ok one question which I ought to know but need it clarifying It could be a general question regarding regs as a whole but it's more about Building Regs are these mandatory or just mere guilde lines? So we are talking about a already banned product was huge stocks of the banned product actually being moth balled for future fitting to buildings knowing these panels were in fact banned? Or purposely new ones made to the old spec? (which is highly unlikely in the latter)

Interesting briefly OT you worked as a sparky then, like rewiring houses etc meter installs? A meter and service cut out installed under a sink :eek: not seen that and have done quite a few rewires in my time (first rewire at 15! and got it passed via MANWEB as it was back then) Have seen many meters and service cut outs in my time (at ceiling height!)and many are still present to this very day in the same positions, interesting though :) Any way back on topic! You mention the councillor also turned a blind eye and should be investigated (is this re the Grenfell Tower Block Fire) 100% they should be investigated. I think the 3 main parties should get involved in this mess lets face the government are as much to blame about this fire even if indirectly, warnings/sound avice was issued up to 3 decades ago and still these sort of fires made the headlines ending with worst of them all at Grenfell . Cheers

---------- Post added at 12:10 ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 ----------

The other thing that should be looked at is the paper work during the planned refurb work I would guess there would have been many meetings on this with the housing management team (who manages Grenfell and surrounding blocks) and the planning dept there has to be records of these meetings for such a expensive refit of Grenfell tower block this should be made available in this investigation process and also for the residents, what do others think? Cheers

[MyNameIsTerry]

Nah, Dave. I worked at the supplier end and earlier on I was dealing with all sorts of metering issues when I was working my way up. This included arranging jobs for things like meter installs after rewires as well as dealing with all the engineers notes that came back which were where the weird & wonderful could be seen.

Even now when someone on the ALS threads mentioned Bulbar, it means something totally different to me!

Meter installs at celing height are a pain if they want a prepayment meter. If the tails are long enough the engineers can often do some resiting (if they are also sparkys) but sometimes the customer is stuck or so is the supplier if they want to force fit one for debt. Like anyone wants to pay the distributor to do the work just because the regs have changed!

Where you a spark then?

[Bigboyuk]

Nah, Dave. I worked at the supplier end and earlier on I was dealing with all sorts of metering issues when I was working my way up. This included arranging jobs for things like meter installs after rewires as well as dealing with all the engineers notes that came back which were where the weird & wonderful could be seen.

Even now when someone on the ALS threads mentioned Bulbar, it means something totally different to me!

Meter installs at celing height are a pain if they want a prepayment meter. If the tails are long enough the engineers can often do some resiting (if they are also sparkys) but sometimes the customer is stuck or so is the supplier if they want to force fit one for debt. Like anyone wants to pay the distributor to do the work just because the regs have changed!

Where you a spark then?Ahh ok so sort of admin work then in a office? Or did you do site visits too? Think you mean Busbar :D Yeah seen many regs changed too a lot for the worst. Nah self taught Terry! The house was huge (not terraced) 1/2 mile of cable was used, 2 Wylex 8 way dis boards were installed and 1 Wylex 4 way disboard (for lighting) and 2 Mem 60 amp (fused) switch fuses to supply the (via 2 16mm tw/e cables) 2 Wylex 8 way dis boards for skts (Radial) circuits for 15 amp round pin skts ;) Cheers

---------- Post added at 10:27 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

So any one seen the other Tonight doc on Grenfell? This too was interesting and there was specialsts in the studio too :) Going to get another coffee in me still need to fully wake up, well it is a Monday after all ;) Lmfao ha ha Cheers

[Bigboyuk]

Interestingly over 4,000 doors (in it's social housing) across the borough in London re the Grenfell disaster nearly a year ago are going to be replaced at a cost of £3 million the thing is when Grenfell was refurbished a couple of years before the fire last year fire doors and flat doors was replaced in the block, but these door didn't meet the 30 min requirement to hold fire back in fact these doors only held fire back for 15 mins so again in my view this also helped the fire spread quickly.


The other disturbing thing after the disaster the council went off the radar and left it to communities and charities to help the victims I find this a heartless act but thank goodness for the general public and these charities, we need heads to roll and criminal proceedings to take place lets hope this happens and soon. What do others think? ATB

[MyNameIsTerry]

The other disturbing thing after the disaster the council went off the radar and left it to communities and charities to help the victims I find this a heartless act but thank goodness for the general public and these charities, we need heads to roll and criminal proceedings to take place lets hope this happens and soon. What do others think? ATB

The media go into a frenzy over s big event and months later they couldn't care less. Governments, councils, etc know it will go away as the media get bored with it.

The same in the US. Mass shooting, media frenzy...2 weeks later no one gives a monkeys.

Ongoing governance is needed. If not, all a council like this will do is address the issue the big boss is jumping up & down about at the moment and sod the rest of the issues until one of them gets the boss jumping up & down. Typical firefighting attitude of large organisations.

[Bigboyuk]

The media go into a frenzy over s big event and months later they couldn't care less. Governments, councils, etc know it will go away as the media get bored with it.

The same in the US. Mass shooting, media frenzy...2 weeks later no one gives a monkeys.

Ongoing governance is needed. If not, all a council like this will do is address the issue the big boss is jumping up & down about at the moment and sod the rest of the issues until one of them gets the boss jumping up & down. Typical firefighting attitude of large organisations.Yes so true I bet some of them in the council are bricking it tbh as the enquires continues and enters a new phase. This is what we and foremost all the victims and surviours of that tower block need to know who signed off the refurbishment work, was cost a factor when buying substandard fire doors on the previous refurb? And have lessons been really learned after this fire. and why was a disabled resident given a flat on the 18th floor (irregardless of any lack of fire safety arrangements) it seems a very bad decision on some ones part. I will be watching this enquire as it un folds. ATB

[Bigboyuk]

The fact finding phase has now started in the enquires so far no one has admitted responsibility and I doubt they will this doesn't seem fair or right the surviours must continue to fight their corner and get justice for their loved ones that perished on that night if the fire. I expect sadly many who should face a mass murder charge will GET off lightly or not even face court. It's learned from the LFB that they told people to stay in their flats 30 mins after the fire had started by then it was too late to save many of the victims. so reopening this debate what do others think and what should happen now? ATB

---------- Post added at 13:26 ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 ----------

I have just watched BBC news at one and have sadly learned the company Rydon who supplied the panels for the refurb of the tower block didn't warn the council or housing management for the block that dangerous panels were being installed. The council says this should have happened, but actually the council are also at fault here by signing the work off so imho all are to blame, I am also saddened that it could take up to several years to bring companies to justice and other agencies more should be done to speed this process up what a mess this is turning out to be. ATB

[MyNameIsTerry]

But were the panels considered dangerous prior to their fitting? If so, how the hell are they not removed from the market by the authorities? Or were the manufacturer producing products that fail safety standards?

Protection of the public is a task that falls to public bodies who we pay to do so. They set & control safety regs. They should be signing off on major works or works affecting safety. They are quick enough to involve themselves in matters of heritage or someone building a slightly too large shed or checking works after planning permission is issued.

If the manufacturer makes something that regulations state is legal then the regs are the bigger problem since every manufacturer could legally be doing the same. Best practice is nice but minimum standards and cost are often a driver to their use.

[Bigboyuk]

But were the panels considered dangerous prior to their fitting? If so, how the hell are they not removed from the market by the authorities? Or were the manufacturer producing products that fail safety standards?

Protection of the public is a task that falls to public bodies who we pay to do so. They set & control safety regs. They should be signing off on major works or works affecting safety. They are quick enough to involve themselves in matters of heritage or someone building a slightly too large shed or checking works after planning permission is issued.

If the manufacturer makes something that regulations state is legal then the regs are the bigger problem since every manufacturer could legally be doing the same. Best practice is nice but minimum standards and cost are often a driver to their use. Tbh Terry I don't know what Iam saying is these panels were made of polyethelene which isn't not fire retardant and highly flammable, saying that they were employed on the out side of the building, so would they need to be fire retardant?? What do the current fire regs say on this, do you know is there a link to these regs? Rydon the manufacturer off the panels are very quite and haven't spoke out about these panels. Cost was a deciding factor on the refurb of the tower (I know we are covering old ground here again )
Some one in Council HQ rubbered stamped the cladding that was to be used and the rest is history, same with fire doors to each flat and corridor doors. I caught the last 20 mins of a ITV doc last night Grenfell First 24 hrs and at the end some words on the screen said even after a year later 297 tower blocks still has the same cladding on that was fitted to Grenfell this is truly unbelievable after what happened at Grenfell my question is Why??? ATB