View Full Version : New Debate:G4s Prison Riots
Debate time again folks lets make it a good one :) Takes your mind off things a bit: These riots have already cost around £2 million guess what it's over a smoking ban in prisons ha ha Well I am all for it on the outside we have had a ban on smoking in certain places so why not in prison? I mean you are sent there because you have committed a crime right these idiots who decide to cause may hem in prison all because of this new law is outrageous and IMHO should be dealt with severely what do others think on this? Once again comments are welcomed Cheers
When I was in high school not only were the students allowed to smoke they were given a place and time to do so in-between each class. Of course there was a lot more going on in the "smoking areas" than smoking cigarettes. Looking back one has to ask - what were they thinking? Answer: They weren't.
As for prisons...I'm with 100% BB. Prisons should not be comfortable. I guess the only way to implement the ban would be cold turkey. And if you've ever seen someone withdraw from nicotine it ain't pretty. Not to bad when one's mom is giving up smoking but when a vicious brutal killer is doing it...well there could be a little...acting out shall we say. It should have been expected.
N.
When I was in high school not only were the students allowed to smoke they were given a place and time to do so in-between each class. Of course there was a lot more going on in the "smoking areas" than smoking cigarettes. Looking back one has to ask - what were they thinking? Answer: They weren't.
As for prisons...I'm with 100% BB. Prisons should not be comfortable. I guess the only way to implement the ban would be cold turkey. And if you've ever seen someone withdraw from nicotine it ain't pretty. Not to bad when one's mom is giving up smoking but when a vicious brutal killer is doing it...well there could be a little...acting out shall we say. It should have been expected.
N. Ahh that was back in the good old days:whistles: Excactly right as per my previous debate which had many replies it's way too comfortable in some jails especially the Cat 'C' ones, the thing is they could start a 12 step smoking group based around AA and GA groups which I presume do run in some prisons but to set fire and cause mayhem sorry there is absolutely no excuse for that behaviour and they should be punished accordingly in my book!! Cheers
I'd heard there were "riots" in a few prisons but didn't know it was over a smoking ban. I didn't know they were bringing in smoking bans in prisons in England.
I'm sure that the main people in the riot - maybe get moved prison, lose some time for good behaviour, get put on basic regime or something like that. They will get punished.
I think it's crazy them banning smoking in prison. When I was there I'd say that 80 or 90% of prisoners smoke. I've smoked since I was at school - 13 or 14 - so don'y agree with a ban but it is crazy to think they thought they could do it without any problems. Smoking is one of the things that keeps you sane in prison and helps you relax. There are other things they should crack down on before smoking. When I was there we were only allowed smoke in out cells and the exercise yard so it didn't bother anybody.
I've been in police cells and they don't let you smoke in there and it's really hard especially when they keep you in for the weekend before court - I would have done anything there to have a smoke. And that was only for a couple of days so can only imagine what a ban in prison would be like.
In army jail it was different. We only got to smoke a few times a day - after meals and at recreation in the evening and it was only allowed under supervision of the staff. And it was a privilege they could take away any time for a day or a few days if you messed up with something. It wasn't a bad punishment but we all hated getting it.
I'd heard there were "riots" in a few prisons but didn't know it was over a smoking ban. I didn't know they were bringing in smoking bans in prisons in England.
I'm sure that the main people in the riot - maybe get moved prison, lose some time for good behaviour, get put on basic regime or something like that. They will get punished.
I think it's crazy them banning smoking in prison. When I was there I'd say that 80 or 90% of prisoners smoke. I've smoked since I was at school - 13 or 14 - so don'y agree with a ban but it is crazy to think they thought they could do it without any problems. Smoking is one of the things that keeps you sane in prison and helps you relax. There are other things they should crack down on before smoking. When I was there we were only allowed smoke in out cells and the exercise yard so it didn't bother anybody.
I've been in police cells and they don't let you smoke in there and it's really hard especially when they keep you in for the weekend before court - I would have done anything there to have a smoke. And that was only for a couple of days so can only imagine what a ban in prison would be like.
In army jail it was different. We only got to smoke a few times a day - after meals and at recreation in the evening and it was only allowed under supervision of the staff. And it was a privilege they could take away any time for a day or a few days if you messed up with something. It wasn't a bad punishment but we all hated getting it. Hi good to see back Ryan :) I mean come on some set fires of in the prison all remission should be lost its arson after all Yeah agree move those involved and put in solitary confinement after all it was serious what happened wasn't a question of smash a few cells up (you could Google the story think it was in Birmingham)
You make a good point re army jail seemed more disciplined all round etc thanks for your valued comments :) Cheers
These prison riots are just a symptom of a bigger problem which is that modern Britain is now perceived as being "soft". Real criminals don't fear the law or the police because under the umbrella of "human rights" they can get away with anything.
The judiciary and the police force along with every other institution in Britain has been infiltrated by those with a sinister agenda to destroy this country from within. Soon we will see riots outside prisons too because this is the price you have to pay for being a "tolerant" country.
https://i.imgur.com/AuEbRnn_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
Catherine S
13-09-17, 22:42
So Ryan, what "other things" do you think should be cracked down on in prison if not smoking? No library books, television, computer games etc? And why do you think it should it be important to help people serving sentences to 'relax' in the prison system.
This is just curiosity on my part by the way, so I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.
Cath S.
Hi good to see back Ryan :) I mean come on some set fires of in the prison all remission should be lost its arson after all Yeah agree move those involved and put in solitary confinement after all it was serious what happened wasn't a question of smash a few cells up (you could Google the story think it was in Birmingham)
You make a good point re army jail seemed more disciplined all round etc thanks for your valued comments :) Cheers
Like I said I am sure they will be punished and might even get more charges and extra time over what happened. When I was in prison I was never there for a major disturbance or whatever but spoke to other lads who were at other times and they said it was easy to get caught up in something like that when it kicks off.
I just don't see the reason to ban smoking when they know it will cause so much trouble for no reason.
---------- Post added at 22:58 ---------- Previous post was at 22:51 ----------
So Ryan, what "other things" do you think should be cracked down on in prison if not smoking? No library books, television, computer games etc? And why do you think it should it be important to help people serving sentences to 'relax' in the prison system.
This is just curiosity on my part by the way, so I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.
Cath S.
There are hard drugs that get into prisons too and they should be cracked down on before smoking which is legal - that's what I was thinking off. Spice is one that's around alot these days and people are off their heads on it.
No all those things you mention are important. If you didn't have TVs etc there would be more trouble in prisons as you are locked up for so long that you need things to keep you occupied and "relaxed" - prob not the right word but you probably know what I mean. If you talked to prison officers they would say the same as they don't want extra hassle or trouble either.
Although what happened in those "riots" was wrong it just shows what happens if you take away peole's privileges. You make prison worse for both prisoners and staff. Just giving my opinion - I know you might not agree.
These prison riots are just a symptom of a bigger problem which is that modern Britain is now perceived as being "soft". Real criminals don't fear the law or the police because under the umbrella of "human rights" they can get away with anything.
The judiciary and the police force along with every other institution in Britain has been infiltrated by those with a sinister agenda to destroy this country from within. Soon we will see riots outside prisons too because this is the price you have to pay for being a "tolerant" country.
https://i.imgur.com/AuEbRnn_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium For sure Hollow and who is going to pay the bill for those damages not the prisoners yeah think it will happen for sure one day (: BTW couldn't open the attachment in my email notification any one else had that problem? thanks for your comments :) Cheers
---------- Post added at 23:17 ---------- Previous post was at 23:02 ----------
Like I said I am sure they will be punished and might even get more charges and extra time over what happened. When I was in prison I was never there for a major disturbance or whatever but spoke to other lads who were at other times and they said it was easy to get caught up in something like that when it kicks off.
I just don't see the reason to ban smoking when they know it will cause so much trouble for no reason.
---------- Post added at 22:58 ---------- Previous post was at 22:51 ----------
There are hard drugs that get into prisons too and they should be cracked down on before smoking which is legal - that's what I was thinking off. Spice is one that's around alot these days and people are off their heads on it.
No all those things you mention are important. If you didn't have TVs etc there would be more trouble in prisons as you are locked up for so long that you need things to keep you occupied and "relaxed" - prob not the right word but you probably know what I mean. If you talked to prison officers they would say the same as they don't want extra hassle or trouble either.
Although what happened in those "riots" was wrong it just shows what happens if you take away peole's privileges. You make prison worse for both prisoners and staff. Just giving my opinion - I know you might not agree. Yeah but not to actually make them realise what happened was very serious and possibly extra couple of years. Ha ha easy to get involved just go back to your cell opps sorry room but with peer pressure I guess some would go along with it!
Nah you cant smoke in pubs or other public places that's one reason why pubs are closing down by the bucket load no riots about that on the outside nah need to get more tougher on crime etc and reflect that in the sentences simple as that.
Sure tackle the drug problem big time but reckon they only touch the surface on this Cheers
Catherine S
13-09-17, 23:23
Yes its certainly debatable. Prison officers obviously want a quiet life so prisoners are allowed their 'privileges', we don't want to go back to the system portrayed in the Green Mile do we, and I do realise that there are different categories in the UK system, which means different entitlement to different levels of 'privileges'.
I think it's difficult for people on the 'outside' so to speak, to accept the system of privileged convicts who have committed crimes. Being a victim myself, I do find it very difficult to sympathise. Also, your alternative to banning smoking is to ban illegal drugs? Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? The drugs shouldn't be there in the first place, so banning something that shouldn't be there is your compromise?
Sorry but to me, the word prisoner means somebody locked up, doing time for a crime. End of. No easy relaxing time, and that goes for the prison staff too. They want an easy time they shouldn't be looking after prisoners should they really...it's not boot camp.
Yes its certainly debatable. Prison officers obviously want a quiet life so prisoners are allowed their 'privileges', we don't want to go back to the system portrayed in the Green Mile do we, and I do realise that there are different categories in the UK system, which means different entitlement to different levels of 'privileges'.
I think it's difficult for people on the 'outside' so to speak, to accept the system of privileged convicts who have committed crimes. Being a victim myself, I do find it very difficult to sympathise. Also, your alternative to banning smoking is to ban illegal drugs? Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? The drugs shouldn't be there in the first place, so banning something that shouldn't be there is your compromise?
Sorry but to me, the word prisoner means somebody locked up, doing time for a crime. End of. No easy relaxing time, and that goes for the prison staff too. They want an easy time they shouldn't be looking after prisoners should they really...it's not boot camp. With out a doubt very debatable
Think you are right that PO's do want a quite life not saying they don't work hard and hmm maybe why not go back to the green mile days some might say it's harsh well its gone to soft now IMHO and totally agree with that statement in your last paragraph, But boot camp is tough well the American ones seem to be from what I have watched on Tv Yes I too would have no sympathy if some one commited a crime on me no chance Cheers
MyNameIsTerry
14-09-17, 01:45
Aw, poor little poppets. :roflmao:
Ryan, how about cancer? What of the 10% who don't smoke? What of the staff? Why should they be exposed? And there is no argument about not entering into the job on that basis, the prison service have a duty of care to their staff and why should they potentially suffer due to the "priveleges" of people who chose to break the law? Isn't that punishing the innocent?
Obviously bringing in a ban needs to be done in a sensitve way to deal with the withdrawal that comes with it. However, that doesn't mean pandering to the worry that violent thugs might get a bit violent, surely?
There is rhe issue of human rights. Whether it you should not be allowed to conduct a legal activity but that issue is long gone in smoking as society has moved on despite the protests of smoking groups. The only issue here, to me, is the fact they are locked up. Is a smoking area the way it should be done to compromise on both human rights for smokers and protection of non smokers? It doesn't solve the issue for PO's though. Many of a prisoner's legal rights are removed anyway.
As far as PO's wanting smoking to continue, is there evidence to back this up? So, they are happy for the cancer then? My brother's GF is a PO and she doesn't agree with not tackling issues because the little poppets will kick off. At some point you have to stop pandering to people "just in case".
Yet it seems the MoJ are taking a considerate approach...
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/08/prison-smoking-ban-overturned-by-court-of-appeal
And already banned in communal areas anyway. Still not good if you are a non smoker in a cell with a smoker though. of course, the smoker would tell you to leave the cell (obviously not always possible) than forego their cancer stick.
Ryan makes a valid point. Not that I don't think smoking shouldn't be banned. I have mixed feelings on that. But drugs are rampant in many prisons here. I've visited many prisoners here in the US in both minimum and maximum security prisons. I will say on more than one occasion I've seen the transfer of drugs right in front of my eyes. Usually out of one rectum and into the other. I routinely speak with addicts who tell me drugs are relatively easy to get in jail. It would help people a lot more if they stopped the drugs than if they stopped the fags.
N.
MyNameIsTerry
14-09-17, 02:25
Same here, N. It's always been an issue. I doubt they are replacing action against that with this smoking ban.
There will always be trouble with drugs in prison. It never stopped prisoners getting access to more facilities though so it can apply the other way too.
Just did a little math. If a bloke started smoking when he was 20 and he had a $10 per day habit and he smoked till retirement age of 65...compounded @ 6% (historical stock market average) annually...at 65 he would have...drum roll please... $823,104.65
Wow! That's a friggin pension plan. Of course if you smoke you won't need a pension. Like I've always said everyone stops smoking eventually.:D
MyNameIsTerry
14-09-17, 02:48
Where's my $823,104.65?!!! :yesyes:
Good point, N. How about we spin it "MoJ helps prisoners to NOT die of lung cancer but prisoners reject policy because 'I should have a choice to kill myself'" Or perhaps "prisoners give two fingers up to the NHS".
That's the Dail Mail's headlines sorted! :roflmao:
But there is something in that. Smokers were branded selfish for wanting to continue to smoke indoors because for the sake of preserving their rights they damned non smokers to a potentially similiar fate. Hence they got little sympathy with this argument.
The obese get branded selfish for their treatment in the NHS. Smokers too. So, the NHS also became a point against the smoking groups. They got nowhere. People will have even less sympathy for lags.
They haven't caught on yet though. They are offering ecigs to them. Surely it will be pretty easy to get some drug flavours in them? :whistles:
I can remember the smokers complaining they should get more breaks at work than non smokers at my last place. Oh, how we laughed. :roflmao: (I'm an ex smoker myself but taking the pee is taking the pee)
Not to bad when one's mom is giving up smoking but when a vicious brutal killer is doing it...well there could be a little...acting out shall we say. It should have been expected.
N.
I couldn't help but laugh when I read this because only a little over a year ago, that mom was me only I'm a little old grandma - but everyone around me thought I could easily become the vicious brutal killer! :scared15:
Now for my opinion, I agree that prison was never intended to be a resort where the prisoner's comfort and desires mattered. What about those that were harmed to put them there? The prisoners didn't care one lick for the comfort of their victims. They are lucky to have it the way they do. They could give them the patch to help with the violence. Maybe their arms will turn red and burn from the patches!
---------- Post added at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:05 ----------
Aw, poor little poppets. :roflmao:
Is a smoking area the way it should be done to compromise on both human rights for smokers and protection of non smokers? It doesn't solve the issue for PO's though. Many of a prisoner's legal rights are removed anyway.
This is how it's been handled in all of the places where smoking is banned inside, like bars. The customers go outside and most bars have created an area for that so the non-smokers can avoid the smoke and the smokers are fine. As for the PO's, those that smoke can already go out to have theirs and I mentioned before, the patches will get the prisoners through. That's what they send out for free to people who want to quit smoking. If it's good enough for people on the outside, it's fine for those on the inside as well. Too good in some cases.
MyNameIsTerry
14-09-17, 04:48
I will say on more than one occasion I've seen the transfer of drugs right in front of my eyes. Usually out of one rectum and into the other.
What? Without using their hands? That takes some real skill!!! :yesyes:
---------- Post added at 04:48 ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 ----------
I couldn't help but laugh when I read this because only a little over a year ago, that mom was me only I'm a little old grandma - but everyone around me thought I could easily become the vicious brutal killer! :scared15:
Now for my opinion, I agree that prison was never intended to be a resort where the prisoner's comfort and desires mattered. What about those that were harmed to put them there? The prisoners didn't care one lick for the comfort of their victims. They are lucky to have it the way they do. They could give them the patch to help with the violence. Maybe their arms will turn red and burn from the patches!
---------- Post added at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:05 ----------
This is how it's been handled in all of the places where smoking is banned inside, like bars. The customers go outside and most bars have created an area for that so the non-smokers can avoid the smoke and the smokers are fine. As for the PO's, those that smoke can already go out to have theirs and I mentioned before, the patches will get the prisoners through. That's what they send out for free to people who want to quit smoking. If it's good enough for people on the outside, it's fine for those on the inside as well. Too good in some cases.
Yep, the victim doesn't get off so easily. Some of them get a life sentence, whether still alive or not, yet the criminal gets let out.
Within these %'s we have people ranging from low level offences right up to the worst we've seen. This is why the public just won't give a toss about prisoners been banned from smoking.
It's the same over here since we banned it in public places. Years ago it was common to have a smoking room but fire safety improvements took over and pushed them to outside areas (common sense really!). If you are at work you will get breaks to go for a smoke...prisoners don't have that problem.
Well done for getting on the cigs. :yesyes::yahoo: That's really not easy with anxiety involved. And those prisoners who will have to give up really have little concept of anxiety on top of quitting.
I have worked in a Prison and it is not easy,have seen something's you should not see,as far as Prison Staff wanting it easy, I wish.
More drugs go through the prison gates than a packet of durries,a lot of short termers come out needing to go too rehab,or continue on the path that put them in prison.
Its like a double edged sword if you allow smoking than you are exposed to the ill health effects of the smoke and second hand smoke yet on the otger hand if you ban smoking outright it will only raise tension amongst the inmates and officers once that craving kicks in. Maybe have designated areas for smoking just like most pubs and bars?
Only been gone out for short while and great more replies :) Re Drugs yes it seems to easy to get them inside even on Drones which can be perfectly controlled on the outside and there is nothing that can be done about it or at least no one has come up with a solution to stop drones from bringing contraband in, as for passing drugs from ass to ass well bugger me that has to be seen to believed puts a new meaning on mouth to mouth :whistles: So what could be done about drones getting access in prisons I would have thought some invisible signal blocking device would do the trick and if not invented already could make some one money ;) and of course a lot of prisons do have sniffer dogs but they aren't always deployed so many drugs will get through sadly but it's a big issue and needs sorting out.
Saf you mention about designated areas for smoking (it's a good idea) would it really work? As I believe some prisoners will still smoke in their cells regardless of any new ruling and will laugh at any officer who tells them other wise and many would just turn a blind eye and save on hassle and making out a long written report which to me is a joke! No for me the whole system needs a reality check sadly PR wont allow it! Cheers
---------- Post added at 16:27 ---------- Previous post was at 16:17 ----------
I couldn't help but laugh when I read this because only a little over a year ago, that mom was me only I'm a little old grandma - but everyone around me thought I could easily become the vicious brutal killer! :scared15:
Now for my opinion, I agree that prison was never intended to be a resort where the prisoner's comfort and desires mattered. What about those that were harmed to put them there? The prisoners didn't care one lick for the comfort of their victims. They are lucky to have it the way they do. They could give them the patch to help with the violence. Maybe their arms will turn red and burn from the patches!
---------- Post added at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:05 ----------
This is how it's been handled in all of the places where smoking is banned inside, like bars. The customers go outside and most bars have created an area for that so the non-smokers can avoid the smoke and the smokers are fine. As for the PO's, those that smoke can already go out to have theirs and I mentioned before, the patches will get the prisoners through. That's what they send out for free to people who want to quit smoking. If it's good enough for people on the outside, it's fine for those on the inside as well. Too good in some cases. Very true but sadly it's turned the other way a typical eg is Featherstone Prison near Wolverhampton has any one seen it on the news or Google I have only 2 stories high no bars on the windows and a high wire fence wonder how cushy it is on the inside though! but it just looks like a housing association complex from the out side ha ha Cheers
Yes its certainly debatable. Prison officers obviously want a quiet life so prisoners are allowed their 'privileges', we don't want to go back to the system portrayed in the Green Mile do we, and I do realise that there are different categories in the UK system, which means different entitlement to different levels of 'privileges'.
I think it's difficult for people on the 'outside' so to speak, to accept the system of privileged convicts who have committed crimes. Being a victim myself, I do find it very difficult to sympathise. Also, your alternative to banning smoking is to ban illegal drugs? Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? The drugs shouldn't be there in the first place, so banning something that shouldn't be there is your compromise?
Sorry but to me, the word prisoner means somebody locked up, doing time for a crime. End of. No easy relaxing time, and that goes for the prison staff too. They want an easy time they shouldn't be looking after prisoners should they really...it's not boot camp.
As well as the different category prisons there are different status levels in the prisons - basic, standard, enhanced and super enhanced. That's what I meant when I was saying privileges - you do get more if you get enhanced or super enhanced but can lose them as well on standard and basic.
Even I can understand why victims would hate the thought of me talking about "privileges" but that's the way the system is meant to be to get people to stay out of trouble.
I agree that the drugs shouldn't be there in the first place but they are. I just meant it would be better if they concentrated on keeping them out instead of banning smoking which is legal.
Catherine S
14-09-17, 22:56
But as another member pointed out, smoking actually ISN'T legal inside public buildings, public houses etc is it...it's been banned in alot of places. People can smoke in their own homes...and that doesn't extend to rented accommodation where the landlords are always against it. I'm really sorry Ryan, but any kind of argument in favour of making prisons more comfortable for criminals is going to rub some of us up the wrong way. But then, if we all thought the same it wouldn't be a debate would it :D
Cath S ☺
Aw, poor little poppets. :roflmao:
Ryan, how about cancer? What of the 10% who don't smoke? What of the staff? Why should they be exposed? And there is no argument about not entering into the job on that basis, the prison service have a duty of care to their staff and why should they potentially suffer due to the "priveleges" of people who chose to break the law? Isn't that punishing the innocent?
Obviously bringing in a ban needs to be done in a sensitve way to deal with the withdrawal that comes with it. However, that doesn't mean pandering to the worry that violent thugs might get a bit violent, surely?
There is rhe issue of human rights. Whether it you should not be allowed to conduct a legal activity but that issue is long gone in smoking as society has moved on despite the protests of smoking groups. The only issue here, to me, is the fact they are locked up. Is a smoking area the way it should be done to compromise on both human rights for smokers and protection of non smokers? It doesn't solve the issue for PO's though. Many of a prisoner's legal rights are removed anyway.
As far as PO's wanting smoking to continue, is there evidence to back this up? So, they are happy for the cancer then? My brother's GF is a PO and she doesn't agree with not tackling issues because the little poppets will kick off. At some point you have to stop pandering to people "just in case".
Yet it seems the MoJ are taking a considerate approach...
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/08/prison-smoking-ban-overturned-by-court-of-appeal
And already banned in communal areas anyway. Still not good if you are a non smoker in a cell with a smoker though. of course, the smoker would tell you to leave the cell (obviously not always possible) than forego their cancer stick.
Prisoners who don't smoke are put in cells with other non-smokers so that really isn't a problem. It's one of the things they ask you when you go into prison. You were only allowed smoke in your cell not in common areas so it wasn't really a problem.
Not everybody in prison is a violent thug. In fact what about people on remand who haven't even been found guilty of anything?
About POs wanting/not wanting smoking I'm not really sure. Alot of them smoke themselves and it's just what I thought from talking with some of them.
---------- Post added at 23:08 ---------- Previous post was at 23:00 ----------
I couldn't help but laugh when I read this because only a little over a year ago, that mom was me only I'm a little old grandma - but everyone around me thought I could easily become the vicious brutal killer! :scared15:
Now for my opinion, I agree that prison was never intended to be a resort where the prisoner's comfort and desires mattered. What about those that were harmed to put them there? The prisoners didn't care one lick for the comfort of their victims. They are lucky to have it the way they do. They could give them the patch to help with the violence. Maybe their arms will turn red and burn from the patches!
---------- Post added at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:05 ----------
This is how it's been handled in all of the places where smoking is banned inside, like bars. The customers go outside and most bars have created an area for that so the non-smokers can avoid the smoke and the smokers are fine. As for the PO's, those that smoke can already go out to have theirs and I mentioned before, the patches will get the prisoners through. That's what they send out for free to people who want to quit smoking. If it's good enough for people on the outside, it's fine for those on the inside as well. Too good in some cases.
But that's the difference with prison you can't just go outside to have a smoke and then come back in. You might only get out to the exercise yard a couple of times a week.
In Colchester (army jail) we could only smoke outside but we were outside most of the day and for recreation. We only got a couple of smoke breaks a day and we were supervised smoking. There were alot fewer soldiers there than prisoners in prison so it isn't exactly the same and probably wouldn't work
MyNameIsTerry
15-09-17, 01:47
Prisoners who don't smoke are put in cells with other non-smokers so that really isn't a problem. It's one of the things they ask you when you go into prison. You were only allowed smoke in your cell not in common areas so it wasn't really a problem.
Not everybody in prison is a violent thug. In fact what about people on remand who haven't even been found guilty of anything?
About POs wanting/not wanting smoking I'm not really sure. Alot of them smoke themselves and it's just what I thought from talking with some of them.
I know they are not all violent, Ryan. The point is by arguing for the sake of all, you also cater to the worst in there. Am I concerned that the worst are going to lose a cancer stick privelege? Nope.
What did they do when a smoking ban came along? Had a riot. Violence.
There might be a reason why you are on remand.
So, the PO's who don't smoke who have to go into those cells...
It's interesting that it was a non smoking prisoner who actually took this into the courts. His lawyer speaking after the High Court overturned his successful case in the first court:
Responding to the decision, Sean Humber, head of human rights at the law firm Leigh Day, which represented Black, said: “The court of appeal’s judgment is disappointing as it denies non-smoking prisoners and prison staff the same legal protection from the dangers posed by secondhand smoke as the rest of us.
“It seems absurd to our client that, despite the Health Act specifically identifying controls on smoking in ‘prisons’, the act is to be interpreted as not applying to public sector prisons that make up the vast majority of prisons in England and Wales.
“Given that our client’s case was successful in the high court, we are now discussing an appeal to the supreme court with our client.”
The MoJ were arguing it should be stopped in court simply because they are bringing it in a phased fashion. so, it's happening. The High Court only made a ruling based on current law. The MoJ can easily get that changed with the government through Parliament. I can't see many MP's outside of more liberal ones being too bothered about criminals.
The mentioned flouting of the rules. I wonder if this is PO's not taking a tough enough stance? Don't annoy the prisoners or they kick off?
I think I would like to spare PO's a potential cancer risk:
Air-quality tests carried out last year in six prisons showed staff were spending at least one-sixth of their time breathing in secondhand smoke levels higher than World Health Organisation standards.
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Only been gone out for short while and great more replies :) Re Drugs yes it seems to easy to get them inside even on Drones which can be perfectly controlled on the outside and there is nothing that can be done about it or at least no one has come up with a solution to stop drones from bringing contraband in, as for passing drugs from ass to ass well bugger me that has to be seen to believed puts a new meaning on mouth to mouth :whistles: So what could be done about drones getting access in prisons I would have thought some invisible signal blocking device would do the trick and if not invented already could make some one money ;) and of course a lot of prisons do have sniffer dogs but they aren't always deployed so many drugs will get through sadly but it's a big issue and needs sorting out.
Saf you mention about designated areas for smoking (it's a good idea) would it really work? As I believe some prisoners will still smoke in their cells regardless of any new ruling and will laugh at any officer who tells them other wise and many would just turn a blind eye and save on hassle and making out a long written report which to me is a joke! No for me the whole system needs a reality check sadly PR wont allow it! Cheers
It's happening, Dave. The MoJ are pushing ahead with their plans. I can't see the public complaining other than left wing pressure groups and other interest groups/certain MP's.
MoJ sources said the ruling would not affect the phased introduction of the ban on smoking in prisons in England and Wales. It will eventually be implemented in all 136 prisons in England and Wales.
A Prison Service spokesperson said: “The result of this appeal means we are able to roll out smoke-free prisons in a safe and secure way. While the Health Act 2006 will not legally bind the crown properties, including prisons, the smoking ban will be implemented as a matter of policy.
“Our careful approach will ensure staff and prisoners are no longer exposed to secondhand smoke, while not compromising the safety and security of our prisons.”
It's interesting that ISIS use drones and tech firms have been working on drone technology that takes over the signal so they can then pull the drone in.
Lets hope they don't go for sniffer dogs. Cranky dogs, not a good idea! And the thought of them getting cancer is too much.
There is an elephant in the cell....
If you can't keep an ILLEGAL drug out of prisons, then what chance is there of controlling the use of a legal one like cigarettes? I visit secure mental health units and patients have to use ecigs or NRT - smoking cigs is banned due to second-hand smoke and fire hazard. The same should apply to prisons - cigs should be banned. Using NRT products or ecigs is NO reason to riot. It's just a poor excuse to take advantage of the fact that many prisons are overcrowded and understaffed :lac:
MyNameIsTerry
15-09-17, 01:53
Agreed. I wonder if the stance against ecigs by prisoners is more because they are making a stance on their rights? And there is the issue of currency too.
They won't ever stop it. They will just smuggle the stuff in up their bums like everything else but that's not the point.
Thanks for telling me about the cell arrangement for no smokers, Ryan, I wasn't aware of that.
Prisoners who don't smoke are put in cells with other non-smokers so that really isn't a problem. It's one of the things they ask you when you go into prison. You were only allowed smoke in your cell not in common areas so it wasn't really a problem.
Not everybody in prison is a violent thug. In fact what about people on remand who haven't even been found guilty of anything?
About POs wanting/not wanting smoking I'm not really sure. Alot of them smoke themselves and it's just what I thought from talking with some of them.
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But that's the difference with prison you can't just go outside to have a smoke and then come back in. You might only get out to the exercise yard a couple of times a week.
In Colchester (army jail) we could only smoke outside but we were outside most of the day and for recreation. We only got a couple of smoke breaks a day and we were supervised smoking. There were alot fewer soldiers there than prisoners in prison so it isn't exactly the same and probably wouldn't workHi Ryan Don't totally agree with this statement but while they do their best to accommodate this, it cant always be possible to have 2 none smokers in a cell every single time! Cheers
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I know they are not all violent, Ryan. The point is by arguing for the sake of all, you also cater to the worst in there. Am I concerned that the worst are going to lose a cancer stick privelege? Nope.
What did they do when a smoking ban came along? Had a riot. Violence.
There might be a reason why you are on remand.
So, the PO's who don't smoke who have to go into those cells...
It's interesting that it was a non smoking prisoner who actually took this into the courts. His lawyer speaking after the High Court overturned his successful case in the first court:
Responding to the decision, Sean Humber, head of human rights at the law firm Leigh Day, which represented Black, said: “The court of appeal’s judgment is disappointing as it denies non-smoking prisoners and prison staff the same legal protection from the dangers posed by secondhand smoke as the rest of us.
“It seems absurd to our client that, despite the Health Act specifically identifying controls on smoking in ‘prisons’, the act is to be interpreted as not applying to public sector prisons that make up the vast majority of prisons in England and Wales.
“Given that our client’s case was successful in the high court, we are now discussing an appeal to the supreme court with our client.”
The MoJ were arguing it should be stopped in court simply because they are bringing it in a phased fashion. so, it's happening. The High Court only made a ruling based on current law. The MoJ can easily get that changed with the government through Parliament. I can't see many MP's outside of more liberal ones being too bothered about criminals.
The mentioned flouting of the rules. I wonder if this is PO's not taking a tough enough stance? Don't annoy the prisoners or they kick off?
I think I would like to spare PO's a potential cancer risk:
Air-quality tests carried out last year in six prisons showed staff were spending at least one-sixth of their time breathing in secondhand smoke levels higher than World Health Organisation standards.
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It's happening, Dave. The MoJ are pushing ahead with their plans. I can't see the public complaining other than left wing pressure groups and other interest groups/certain MP's.
MoJ sources said the ruling would not affect the phased introduction of the ban on smoking in prisons in England and Wales. It will eventually be implemented in all 136 prisons in England and Wales.
A Prison Service spokesperson said: “The result of this appeal means we are able to roll out smoke-free prisons in a safe and secure way. While the Health Act 2006 will not legally bind the crown properties, including prisons, the smoking ban will be implemented as a matter of policy.
“Our careful approach will ensure staff and prisoners are no longer exposed to secondhand smoke, while not compromising the safety and security of our prisons.”
It's interesting that ISIS use drones and tech firms have been working on drone technology that takes over the signal so they can then pull the drone in.
Lets hope they don't go for sniffer dogs. Cranky dogs, not a good idea! And the thought of them getting cancer is too much.Agree on that Terry, Am I bothered that they will lose their right to smoke Nah not one bit and like you say violence happened because of the announced ban pathetic really a eg should now be made of the prisoners but it wont happen may be loss of privelges or a few lousy extra months in side that should teach them ha ha NOT, they wont learn nothing from it atall
Yes think you are right a few mp's and various do gooders will complain that it's not fair, to me it's totally just and fair what's good for the goose is also good for the gander! Well that's good to know that tech firms are working on this trouble is it will be flawed and the drone users will find away round it very quickly I would have thought.!! Cheers
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There is an elephant in the cell....
If you can't keep an ILLEGAL drug out of prisons, then what chance is there of controlling the use of a legal one like cigarettes? I visit secure mental health units and patients have to use ecigs or NRT - smoking cigs is banned due to second-hand smoke and fire hazard. The same should apply to prisons - cigs should be banned. Using NRT products or ecigs is NO reason to riot. It's just a poor excuse to take advantage of the fact that many prisons are overcrowded and understaffed :lac:KK that's what I like there is no if's or buts in these secure MH units take it or leave it but that is what is going to happen a no nonsense approach does it work though? I would say Yes and this is spot on understaffed and overcrowded tackle those 2 problems and you are on the right track:yesyes: Like your approach on this mate Next!! :roflmao:
MyNameIsTerry
15-09-17, 18:31
Severely mental struggling people in secure units can take it at the worst moments of there lifes. Precious princesses inside can't. Why would the public support them over those who genuinely are struggling? When you think about the concerns we all have over the NHS, terrorism, Brexit, the disabled losing out (yes, a lot worse than a bunch of lags losing their smokes!) I don't think it's much on the radar, probably a little higher than human rights for ISIS terrorists.
Some prisoners get off the booze & drugs in there, and fair play to them. I think that's a little harder than giving up smoking. :whistles:
MyNameIsTerry
03-10-17, 00:53
My brother's GF is now working in a Cat A. She says her last prison, a Cat C open, was worse for abuse of PO's and lack of respect.
Sounds like a lack of discipline to me.
She is happier in the Cat A. Read until that what you will...
My brother's GF is now working in a Cat A. She says her last prison, a Cat C open, was worse for abuse of PO's and lack of respect.
Sounds like a lack of discipline to me.
She is happier in the Cat A. Read until that what you will... Terry can quite believe that and would say many PO's would feel the same. Don't think there should be different cats of prisons atall. Update on the Prison riots in Birmingham think there was 6 main prisoners involved in total 36 years have been added to their sentences to run consecutively so not bad but not good enough in my book and tbh they wont do their full extra sentences either the dreaded remission will be given load of ********:huh: Cheers
MyNameIsTerry
05-10-17, 02:04
Wow, 36 years!!! Who did they kill? :winks:
There need to be different cats unless you want to be in a cell with a violent armed robber or drug dealer when you have just committed a minor offence.
But when you get into open prisons it's too far for me. Country club jails they ship off the rich prisons to like politicians. Part of it is supposed to be to transition you to being responsible on the outside but it doesn't sound like it's as good as it could be. My brother's GF said they had some that would be back inside quite soon afterwards as they just couldn't do life outside.
Geezus,,over hear you are lucky, I know of one arseole that killed his wife and got 10yrs,bloody madness and in the clink he bragged about,he ended up with two broken legs, I was on duty that night, I gave him a sneaky kick to his balls.:D.
Wow, 36 years!!! Who did they kill? :winks:
There need to be different cats unless you want to be in a cell with a violent armed robber or drug dealer when you have just committed a minor offence.
But when you get into open prisons it's too far for me. Country club jails they ship off the rich prisons to like politicians. Part of it is supposed to be to transition you to being responsible on the outside but it doesn't sound like it's as good as it could be. My brother's GF said they had some that would be back inside quite soon afterwards as they just couldn't do life outside. Not nearly enough in my book Terry! Sorry I disagree why because you can still get padded up in cell with some one that's done a much worse crime than you have so that one is out of the window in some respects there's one on the way to Werrington that's open style ,and tagain I say a short shock would bring many back in to reality but we cant be seen doing that it's in humane oh what a shame etc and human rights would soon put a stop to it so we are buggered which ever way you look at it. Cheers
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Geezus,,over hear you are lucky, I know of one arseole that killed his wife and got 10yrs,bloody madness and in the clink he bragged about,he ended up with two broken legs, I was on duty that night, I gave him a sneaky kick to his balls.:D. Yeah wouldn't say it's luck though lol more stupidity more like. I have watched many prison docs about American jails and they are pretty tough places :) Cheers
Terry can quite believe that and would say many PO's would feel the same. Don't think there should be different cats of prisons atall. Update on the Prison riots in Birmingham think there was 6 main prisoners involved in total 36 years have been added to their sentences to run consecutively so not bad but not good enough in my book and tbh they wont do their full extra sentences either the dreaded remission will be given load of ********:huh: Cheers
Just reading this now. 36 years between 6 means an average of 6 years each. That's more than just a slap on the wrist that you predicted! Surprised it was all done so quickly. thought it would take alot of time going through court.
If you didn't have different Cat prisons you's be putting everyone in to Cat A type prisons (am guessing you wouldn't want a reduction in security for the most serious prisoners) I am sure it is much more expensive to run Cat A prisons than Cat C prisons or open prisons. In Cat D open prisons there are mainly people who aren't violent or coming to end of long sentences so you don't need to have as much security
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Geezus,,over hear you are lucky, I know of one arseole that killed his wife and got 10yrs,bloody madness and in the clink he bragged about,he ended up with two broken legs, I was on duty that night, I gave him a sneaky kick to his balls.:D.
Plenty of people end up in prison for assault - that's what I was inside for. You might hate to think it but you did the same "crime" as me so you could have ended up as a prisoner too. I always think it's strange that people think that people in prison are totally different to them. Anyone van end up doing something stupid to land themselves in prison. There was a guy I knew growing up who lived on my road and we were at school together. When I was in prison I met him again but he was a prison officer and I was a prisoner. From what he was like at school you would have thought he was more likely to end up in prison than me but it turned out the other way.
Yep,, I did commit a crime and I was lucky it was not caught on camera,but I would do it again.
I don't think people in prison are no different than me,Oh wait the prick who killed his wife by choking and stabbing her then dumping her body in a garbage dump I am sorry too say is different.:mad:
Just reading this now. 36 years between 6 means an average of 6 years each. That's more than just a slap on the wrist that you predicted! Surprised it was all done so quickly. thought it would take alot of time going through court.
If you didn't have different Cat prisons you's be putting everyone in to Cat A type prisons (am guessing you wouldn't want a reduction in security for the most serious prisoners) I am sure it is much more expensive to run Cat A prisons than Cat C prisons or open prisons. In Cat D open prisons there are mainly people who aren't violent or coming to end of long sentences so you don't need to have as much security
---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 20:04 ----------
Plenty of people end up in prison for assault - that's what I was inside for. You might hate to think it but you did the same "crime" as me so you could have ended up as a prisoner too. I always think it's strange that people think that people in prison are totally different to them. Anyone van end up doing something stupid to land themselves in prison. There was a guy I knew growing up who lived on my road and we were at school together. When I was in prison I met him again but he was a prison officer and I was a prisoner. From what he was like at school you would have thought he was more likely to end up in prison than me but it turned out the other way. Hi Ryan still it's a paltrey sentence in my book they will be out in 3 years each for good behaviour it's not enough in my book sorry :)
Yeah me too glad it was dealt with quickly though. And Yes it can work out for the better so peoples lives can be turned around for the better :) Cheers
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Yep,, I did commit a crime and I was lucky it was not caught on camera,but I would do it again.
I don't think people in prison are no different than me,Oh wait the prick who killed his wife by choking and stabbing her then dumping her body in a garbage dump I am sorry too say is different.:mad: While there are different severity's of crime (totally agree) a crime is a crime and you say you would od it again?? That's quite sad to hear really Lola-Lee Cheers
MyNameIsTerry
14-10-17, 13:03
I doubt it, Ryan. Kicking someone in the nads wouldn't land someone in jail unless they did some damage. That would suggest a rather draconian law system where everyone was put away for everything.
How many of us have been in a fight in our lives? Many at school for a start. I don't think people view prisoners different over trivial things but there are reasons they view serial offenders, serious offenders and the drop outs who have little respect for the rest of society, differently.
MyNameIsTerry
28-10-17, 06:25
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39654095
Look at the maximum possible sentence. How is that justice for what these monsters did to a baby? :doh:
RIP :flowers:
14 years!! The arseoles, if it's anything like our prisons they will be bashed on a regular basis,the prisoners don't like child killers or rock spiders and neither do I.:mad::mad:
I am speechless, and what makes it worse is they appealed (which should not be allowed especially in cases like this) and got a year less each:mad: A poor innocent child suffered and they call it justice WTF. It's like Acid attack crims can look forward to a prison term of 6 months that is just outrageous and yet the victims will suffer long term pathetic Grrrr ATB
MyNameIsTerry
28-10-17, 16:14
14 years!! The arseoles, if it's anything like our prisons they will be bashed on a regular basis,the prisoners don't like child killers or rock spiders and neither do I.:mad::mad:
Women's jails are supposed to be hard on them. Good, they deserve it.
What's a rock spider?
Another sad thing with cases like these is how we will end up paying for their protection when they get out :mad:
Imagine finding a poor baby or child dead at all let alone abused & murdered? That would take some getting over.
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I am speechless, and what makes it worse is they appealed (which should not be allowed especially in cases like this) and got a year less each:mad: A poor innocent child suffered and they call it justice WTF. It's like Acid attack crims can look forward to a prison term of 6 months that is just outrageous and yet the victims will suffer long term pathetic Grrrr ATB
Crazy isn't it? How any judge can reduce a sentence like this is just beyond belief.
Agreed on the acid attacks. I think that's worse than beating somebody as the damage is permanent yet I bet you get more for breaking a jaw or limb which will most likely heal.
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Here's a much lesser offence but again beggars belief:
http://metro.co.uk/2017/10/27/ex-police-officer-turned-to-child-pornography-to-cope-with-seeing-dozens-of-car-crashes-7032327/
Some crimes are too serious to brush under the carpet with "well he's seeking help" :doh why can't he serve his time and still face that counselling mentioned?
Hi Terry
Rock spiders are what prisoners and prison guards call paedophiles,the term has been around for decades.According too some studies,they cannot be rehabilitated I believe that same goes with rapists.
Nothing but a bullet will help them.
Folks think this debate is going good :) But it's drifting OT slightly just a observation LOL Lola-Lee while the majority of people hate the crimes you mention and rightly so I have beliefs that some may be rehabilated but that certainly doesn't mean total freedom and you are back in society with out the proper supervision, there again how many mistakes have been made when dangerous criminals have been released from secure hospitals/etc like Broadmoor only to reoffend :eek: ATB
Folks think this debate is going good :) But it's drifting OT slightly just a observation LOL Lola-Lee while the majority of people hate the crimes you mention and rightly so I have beliefs that some may be rehabilated but that certainly doesn't mean total freedom and you are back in society with out the proper supervision, there again how many mistakes have been made when dangerous criminals have been released from secure hospitals/etc like Broadmoor only to reoffend :eek: ATB
Think the reason why vast numbers of prisoners reoffend is because there is NO rehabilitation, apart from those addicted to drugs perhaps. And if rehab isn't working for serious crimes like paedophilia/rape, it's because they need to come up with more effective treatments/rehab progs. You cannot keep these people locked up forever I'm afraid...and we owe it to society as a whole to be "safe".
MyNameIsTerry
29-10-17, 14:51
Hi Terry
Rock spiders are what prisoners and prison guards call paedophiles,the term has been around for decades.According too some studies,they cannot be rehabilitated I believe that same goes with rapists.
Nothing but a bullet will help them.
Never heard that one, Lola. I've heard a lot of less printable ones though :whistles:
It's interesting how science is finding difference in brain regions in some of these people. The question then will be whether that can be altered in some way or controlled. Similiar things emerge in studies between schizophrenia & OCD but science just hasn't got far enough to come up with a proper answer yet.
Think the reason why vast numbers of prisoners reoffend is because there is NO rehabilitation, apart from those addicted to drugs perhaps. And if rehab isn't working for serious crimes like paedophilia/rape, it's because they need to come up with more effective treatments/rehab progs. You cannot keep these people locked up forever I'm afraid...and we owe it to society as a whole to be "safe". KK Partyl agree it is to do with the lack of rehab programmes and other things to cut reoffending down, but will also add with some crimes it must be a one way ticket as some will never get rehabilitated sadly. ATB
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