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Reading these posts from the states where people are having insurance / money problems getting treatment just makes me glad for the NHS in the UK
me too! we are so fortunate
We had a great system until Obummer effed it up.
But Trump will straighten it out.
---------- Post added at 16:37 ---------- Previous post was at 16:34 ----------
But this doesn't sound so hot for the NHS
http://www.libertylawsite.org/2017/01/13/the-british-national-health-service-is-in-crisis-what-else-is-new/
---------- Post added at 16:42 ---------- Previous post was at 16:37 ----------
...nor this...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2825969/Yet-NHS-horror-story-Wales-Dying-elderly-cancer-patient-left-screaming-pain-trolley-E-nine-hours.html
---------- Post added at 16:44 ---------- Previous post was at 16:42 ----------
...or this...
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/500868/NHS-ambulance-scandal-as-heart-attack-victims-forced-to-wait-up-to-four-hours
:D
ServerError
25-10-17, 19:39
I wouldn't rely on the Daily Mail or Express as sources for anything NHS-related.
The truth is that the US system is brutal and leaves thousands of people exposed to the terrifying scenario of essentially not being able to access help they desperately need. You see them on this forum often enough. To lay the blame entirely at Obama's door is madness, and I am not for a minute suggesting his reforms were perfect (or even good).
The NHS also has deep flaws. As with the US examples, you also see plenty of people on here struggling to get the help they need in time on the NHS. Nevertheless, I do personally feel grateful that there is something there for me if I need it - no questions asked.
Lol! What!? Do you live here? Do you pay taxes here? Have you ever had any medical attention here?
Paging Dr Howard Paging Dr Fine Paging Dr Howard!
---------- Post added at 19:19 ---------- Previous post was at 19:16 ----------
It is 100% Obama's fault. 100%
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/23/iowa-obamacare-aca-markets-215736
---------- Post added at 19:26 ---------- Previous post was at 19:19 ----------
How bout The Mirror...is that acceptable to you, SE?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-case-study-sunday-mirror-4957123
Lol! What!? Do you live here? Do you pay taxes here? Have you ever had any medical attention here?
Paging Dr Howard Paging Dr Fine Paging Dr Howard!
---------- Post added at 19:19 ---------- Previous post was at 19:16 ----------
It is 100% Obama's fault. 100%
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/23/iowa-obamacare-aca-markets-215736
Don't be so politically biased, old boy - you know it's not quite as simple as laying blame at one person's door. NHS has its (major) issues as does US system, and this isn't a contest of best health "service". There are fundamental differences.
Now back to HQ for a briefing :lac:
Worldwide Rankings. Let me know if you can sense a theme here.
http://hospitals.webometrics.info/en/World
---------- Post added at 19:41 ---------- Previous post was at 19:38 ----------
I hear you KK...but did you see how this thread began?
The NHS is first class in an emergency. No questions about have you got the money before we treat you...It's always been free at the point of entry. The Heil, the Express and the Mirror are just tabloids and no one takes their reporting seriously.
ServerError
26-10-17, 00:02
I haven't had treatment in the United States. I do, however, know people who live there. Some have needed treatment and received first class service and prove that the system over there can work. Their insurance covered it and they got better and were hugely grateful to the doctors who helped them. I also know people without insurance who've had their lives altered more by attempting to pay for treatment than by the original affliction. I know someone right now who is, in her own words, "working on being able to seek help" for her severe depression because she doesn't have insurance or any money. She needs help right now, but it isn't there for her. It's a flawed system. It was before Obama got involved, it is since he got involved. And it will be even if his reforms are blocked completely. People without insurance will still suffer.
The NHS, on the other hand, groans under the weight of demand. People are forced to wait for procedures they really should receive much quicker (although emergencies are always treated as such). Services are patchy depending on where you live. If the government wants to close a service, they just close it. My local children's A&E closed a few years back. Local people were powerless to stop it. Staff are overworked and underpaid. But at the same time, it doesn't discriminate on the basis of ability to pay. When I was suicidal, I got help straight away. I never once had to question if I could afford it. I got further help pretty quickly. The NHS has managed my mum's MS for two decades. We never had to pay a penny (other than taxes, of course).
I'm not saying I think one service is better than the other. I couldn't really say that without exposing myself to them. I accept the outcomes of unbiased studies that show Britain's health service leaves a lot to be desired, though. People sometimes overreact on this issue. I think national pride comes into it. Americans don't like being lectured by liberal Europeans (I get that) and Brits take a certain national pride in "our NHS" (though not enough to stop the government selling it off). I have no idea what the best way to run a health system is. All I know is, when me and my family have needed sometimes urgent help, I'm glad we haven't had to consider how we'll finance it or to "work towards being able to get the help we need". I guess you could say that, warts and all, I'm grateful for what my grandparents built after World War II.
Nobody takes them seriously...or nobody on the left takes them seriously?
How bout The Guardian? Or is that another lying rag?
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/08/nhs-mental-health-care-readers-stories
ServerError
26-10-17, 00:06
The Guardian is a (mostly) reputable centre-left publication, just as say The Telegraph is a reputable centre-right publication.
The Mail and Express are just hateful bullshit.
I haven't had treatment in the United States. I do, however, know people who live there. Some have needed treatment and received first class service and prove that the system over there can work. Their insurance covered it and they got better and were hugely grateful to the doctors who helped them. I also know people without insurance who've had their lives altered more by attempting to pay for treatment than by the original affliction. I know someone right now who is, in her own words, "working on being able to seek help" for her severe depression because she doesn't have insurance or any money. She needs help right now, but it isn't there for her. It's a flawed system. It was before Obama got involved, it is since he got involved. And it will be even if his reforms are blocked completely. People without insurance will still suffer.
The NHS, on the other hand, groans under the weight of demand. People are forced to wait for procedures they really should receive much quicker (although emergencies are always treated as such). Services are patchy depending on where you live. If the government wants to close a service, they just close it. My local children's A&E closed a few years back. Local people were powerless to stop it. Staff are overworked and underpaid. But at the same time, it doesn't discriminate on the basis of ability to pay. When I was suicidal, I got help straight away. I never once had to question if I could afford it. I got further help pretty quickly. The NHS has managed my mum's MS for two decades. We never had to pay a penny (other than taxes, of course).
I'm not saying I think one service is better than the other. I couldn't really say that without exposing myself to them. I accept the outcomes of unbiased studies that show Britain's health service leaves a lot to be desired, though. People sometimes overreact on this issue. I think national pride comes into it. Americans don't like being lectured by liberal Europeans (I get that) and Brits take a certain national pride in "our NHS" (though not enough to stop the government selling it off). I have no idea what the best way to run a health system is. All I know is, when me and my family have needed sometimes urgent help, I'm glad we haven't had to consider how we'll finance it or to "work towards being able to get the help we need". I guess you could say that, warts and all, I'm grateful for what my grandparents built after World War II.
Hey we have something in common SE...I know people who live here too!
Did you check out my rankings list?
Hypothetical question. Both SE and Noivous wake up tomorrow morning in their respective countries with a pain in the ass (no not your significant other). Here I call my doctors office and say I have a pain in the ass. the receptionist says can you come in today at 3:30? I say I will see you then. and when I get there I do not see a nurse practitioner I see my doctor. And he treats me appropriately. I do not have to go to the emergency room. I do not go to urgent care. I see my doctor in his office. What happens in the UK?
N.
ServerError
26-10-17, 00:17
All I can tell you in that circumstance is that I've been to the doctor's several times lately for various issues (all minor). I called at 8am and was given a same day appointment. I also have an online system where I can book in advance if I want to, which is usually fine.
I've never failed to get a same-day appointment as long as I ring up in the morning. But I do appreciate some people don't have this experience. As I said, the system is patchy. Your question points out flaws I already referenced and accepted. My whole point is that there are flaws wherever in the world you look. I'm just grateful I don't have to think about money when I need to see a doctor.
Nor did anyone here until Obamacare happened. Do you realize he lied right to the face of every single American to sell Obamacare? Do you realize he said everyone's insurance premiums would go down $2400 per year without change in coverage? Premiums increased 400% SE. Do you realize yhe government is taking hard working Americans money and giving it to giant insurance companies? Think about that. First we bailed out the banks cause they effed up. Then we bailed out the auto makers because they effed up. Now we're bailing out the insurance companies because Obama effed up. the system isn't bad it's just that Americans can no longer afford it because of Obama. That is a fact.
---------- Post added at 23:31 ---------- Previous post was at 23:26 ----------
Here's the Obamacare architect talking about how they sold it to the stupid Americans. The guy should be in jail.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UA5XIzIdb5s
---------- Post added at 23:32 ---------- Previous post was at 23:31 ----------
Just for the record though I didn't buy the BS for one second.
ServerError
26-10-17, 00:32
All I know is, I'm glad I don't have to worry about insurance premiums, and I'm certainly glad my mum, with two chronic illnesses, has never had to worry about it. She's had quality care for two decades, and that's why I keep returning to the word "grateful". I'm not saying I don't see weaknesses in our healthcare system. I just know I've benefitted from the fundamental principle of free at the point of delivery, as have people I care about.
I am happy to bow to your greater knowledge of and exposure to Obamacare and its consequences rather than get into a debate about that.
And I've had quality healthcare here in the states for almost 5 decades. by the way it has always been against the law to refuse treating someone because of inability to pay here in the United States.
but I appreciate your frankness and honesty friend. Good discussion.
N.
ServerError
26-10-17, 01:09
Some people thrive on debate. I just find it exhausting. Especially on the internet. I mostly avoid it. There's the expression "older and wiser", but I just feel I know less and less as I get older. I envy people who are sure of what they believe. I rarely feel what you might call conviction.
Probably one of the reasons I'm so anxious. I don't have a grip on what my identity is.
Not debate...just discussion. Don't sell yourself short you taught me a few things about the NHS. And until talking to you I thought it was sacrilegious to say anything even remotely negative about the NHS in GB. Certainly any system the size and scope of a country's medical system is going to always have issues. But we're both fortunate to have good healthcare.
N.
MyNameIsTerry
26-10-17, 01:45
All I can tell you in that circumstance is that I've been to the doctor's several times lately for various issues (all minor). I called at 8am and was given a same day appointment. I also have an online system where I can book in advance if I want to, which is usually fine.
I've never failed to get a same-day appointment as long as I ring up in the morning. But I do appreciate some people don't have this experience. As I said, the system is patchy. Your question points out flaws I already referenced and accepted. My whole point is that there are flaws wherever in the world you look. I'm just grateful I don't have to think about money when I need to see a doctor.
That's nothing short of incredible, SE. My surgery would do this for emergency appointments, but getting in for anxiety would be a non emergency in most cases unless there was risk involved (in my opinion) so my surgery wouldn't let me in for this (not judging why you get in to yours obviously, it's great you can).
What we always had (for decades until cutbacks finally removed it last year) was a morning walk-in for anyoine. For something long term like anxiety they would see you, as the service would see anybody, but try to get you into regular appoiitnemtns which allow them slightly more time oer patient. Now anything outside of those walk-ins meant a possible 3 week wait. Now the service has gone, it's cut dn the waiting times a lot but there is zero chance of a same day outside of emergencies which are a limited number of daily appointments.
---------- Post added at 01:45 ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 ----------
The Guardian is a (mostly) reputable centre-left publication, just as say The Telegraph is a reputable centre-right publication.
The Mail and Express are just hateful bullshit.
The media are what they are and aim to their market. The Guardian are well known for their BS just as The Telegraph (or Torygraph as it's known), The Independant, The Mirror (Labour paper but not Corbyn's Labour :winks:), etc.
They put their slant on things, but if you read the sources, you may find the real facts. Even the DM quotes valid medical studies you know, they just cut out the bits to fit their narrative. Even the BBC do that.
Read them knowing the pitfalls. When the DM tells me foreign rats are invading the UK...I laugh, but I laugh just as much when The Guardian are telling us Strictly viewers are racists because a black person gets voted out.
Dismiss tem based on name alone and I guess we have to dismiss them all, the BBC included. Either that are it's just eco chambers & bias?
ServerError
26-10-17, 01:51
Terry, just to be clear, the issues I recently needed to see a doctor for were physical rather than mental. I had an injury in an embarrassing place caused by, shall we say, poor toilet technique. Very painful and uncomfortable. I rang at 8am for an appointment and got one. I also had a changing mole looked at, and received prescriptions for restless leg syndrome and GERD. In all cases, I called at 8am and got same day appointments. But I've used the online system to book in advance too. In any case, I've never had to give the receptionist a reason for wanting appointments.
When I lived in London, my GP was my only support initially during my crisis. Anxiety and panic were my only issues then, but I still got same day appointments - including emergencies. On one occasion, I just walked in begging to see a doctor and my GP saw me for ten minutes and prescribed some diazepam.
I got CBT after three weeks waiting. This year, I waited about the same amount of time. I've had brilliant treatment, but I do recognise I've been very lucky. I know people who've had anything but.
I will always stick up for the NHS because of the amazing people working on it who saved my life and save lives every day, and I do believe in the principles at the heart of it. But I don't for a second want to pretend that it's perfect or even good enough. It's a messy mix of sometimes brilliant, sometimes inadequate care, delivered by genuinely brilliant people at the forefront, but hindered by an overwhelming bureaucracy and poor management.
Oh, I was very much simplifying on the newspaper thing. The Guardian cracks me up at times. I think there's a BuzzFeed list called something like 20 Times We Reached Peak Guardian in 2016 or something like that. I generally despise BuzzFeed, but it's hilarious.
MyNameIsTerry
26-10-17, 02:05
Not debate...just discussion. Don't sell yourself short you taught me a few things about the NHS. And until talking to you I thought it was sacrilegious to say anything even remotely negative about the NHS in GB. Certainly any system the size and scope of a country's medical system is going to always have issues. But we're both fortunate to have good healthcare.
N.
It depends who you talk to like pulisa said.
Talk to someone who has had cancer or a heart condition or been in an accident are you will hear someone very positive about them. The NHS are spot on with critical care work.
But then ask someone who has experienced the non critical side (think of Carnations's thread) and see how the NHS failed them time & time again. The deaths that could have been avoided. The suicides that could have been prevented (we have one such case right now on a thread on the HA board).
It's night & day between front line services and general hospital wards. When my mum was in last time there was a poor man wailing in mental anguish hours at a time and it was left to one other elderly man to calm him down on a full ward. Only one nurse would go to comfort him, an Indian man, the others just walked on by...
It has many good points but it's perhaps more rosey from the outside as the media, government & NHS portray it to you. But the private sector has many disadvantages too and I would prefer to sort out public care over go down that route.
---------- Post added at 02:05 ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 ----------
Terry, just to be clear, the issues I recently needed to see a doctor for were physical rather than mental. I had an injury in an embarrassing place caused by, shall we say, poor toilet technique. Very painful and uncomfortable. I rang at 8am for an appointment and got one. I also had a changing mole looked at, and received prescriptions for restless leg syndrome and GERD. In all cases, I called at 8am and got same day appointments. But I've used the online system to book in advance too. In any case, I've never had to give the receptionist a reason for wanting appointments.
When I lived in London, my GP was only support initially during my crisis. Anxiety and panic were my only issues then, but I still get same day appointments - including emergencies. On one occasion, I just walked in begging to see a doctor and my GP saw me for ten minutes and prescribed some diazepam.
I got CBT after three weeks waiting. This year, I waited about the same amount of time. I've had brilliant treatment, but I do recognise I've been very lucky. I know people who've had anything but.
I will always stick up for the NHS because of the amazing people working on it who saved my life and save lives every day, and I do believe in the principles at the heart of it. But I don't for a second want to pretend that it's perfect or even good enough. It's a messy mix of sometimes brilliant, sometimes inadequate care, delivered by genuinely brilliant people at the forefront, but hindered by an overwhelming bureaucracy and poor management.
Oh, I was very much simplifying on the newspaper thing. The Guardian cracks me up at times. I think there's a BuzzFeed list called something like 20 Times We Reached Peak Guardian in 2016 or something like that. I generally despise BuzzFeed, but it's hilarious.
It's a cottage industry. Surgeries need much tighter governance.
It's A&E for injuries around here. They would try to get in emergencies if they have slots but but you do have to give details because otherwise people try to get around them for non emergencies as you can expect.
It just shows the widespread differences. It sounds like your surgery were very hot on patients first. At mine even if they mess up your prescription you spend your time fighting with a receptionist for them to go & ask the doctor to sort it out. They try to get you into the appointment system which is ludicrous since it ties up a doctor and takes an appointment away. We have one really good receptionist thogh who will go and sort it out for you. The new clinical pharmacist is also very proactive.
One of the things thaty annoys me is the IAPT target time. Unless it has been changed as I've not checked for a while, it was only to see the patient the first time which we all know is the assessment. There was o follow up target for starting treatment. Compare that to physical ailments where it is "treatment must commence". I've always thought IAPT was a service improvement to improve some statistics rather than a patient centric one.
But...the treatment my mum has received in urgent care has been amazing. Spot on doctors moving the earth to get the job done.
MyNameIsTerry
26-10-17, 06:46
Sometimes I just despair at the b*llock brained ideas some people come up with:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/25/nhs-to-pilot-airbnb-type-scheme-for-patients-recovering-from-surgery
God please tell me the elderly are exempt from this.
:doh::wall:
Oh dear. I've started something here. The NHS is flawed simply because it does so much. All I know is I can get primary and emergency care immediately by picking up the phone. No questions asked, no invoices raised.
I really don't understand Obamacare or what Trump is doing.
Getting escalated care can be a problem in the UK because all resources go on primary care, and, it is true, people abuse the system.
I didn't meant to offend anyone.
I had a friend who had a major psychotic crisis and was in hospital being cared for straight away. She is now functioning fully and enjoying life. She doesn't work and didn't pay a penny. That's what socialised health care means to me.
Hey Scott no offense here. It's a good subject and a good discussion. I just think there are many misconceptions in the UK about the States and our healthcare is another of them.
Noivous, if you needed emergency care in a crisis situation would you be asked for payment first and what would happen if you had no funds to pay the extensive bills and none of your relatives could either?
Thanks Noivous. You are right, we only hear the bad in the UK about people being asked for credit cards and insurance before getting treatment. I do struggle to understand how such a sophisticated country as the US, which I have immense respect for, can tolerate this. If true.
Noivous, if you needed emergency care in a crisis situation would you be asked for payment first and what would happen if you had no funds to pay the extensive bills and none of your relatives could either?
Absolutely positively and without a doubt you would not be asked for payment before treatment. As I've said it's against the law to deny treatment for lack of ability to pay.
COYP!!
How soon after saving your life is the bill for medical costs incurred presented though? I'm just curious as like most people I know next to nothing about your healthcare system.
COYP...please?!!
If someone truly can't pay they don't get billed. Now if someone can pay they should pay. By the way the NHS is not free. Free healthcare is a fallacy. There is no such thing.
Also, a lot of Americans feel that we should have a choice in regards to our healthcare instead of having no choice...i.e. the government Health Care system.
---------- Post added at 20:43 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------
Oh yeah...COYP!
---------- Post added at 21:02 ---------- Previous post was at 20:43 ----------
Now it should be noted that Obamacare has made if financially impossible for millions and millions of people to afford health insurance...people who pre-Obamacare had no problem paying health insurance premiums. But if someone can afford health insurance and they don't buy it then shame on them.
MyNameIsTerry
27-10-17, 02:09
How soon after saving your life is the bill for medical costs incurred presented though? I'm just curious as like most people I know next to nothing about your healthcare system.
COYP...please?!!
They attach an invoice to your gown after they finish the stitching.
Suture, stapler, scrub up. :D
---------- Post added at 02:09 ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 ----------
Oh dear. I've started something here. The NHS is flawed simply because it does so much. All I know is I can get primary and emergency care immediately by picking up the phone. No questions asked, no invoices raised.
I really don't understand Obamacare or what Trump is doing.
Getting escalated care can be a problem in the UK because all resources go on primary care, and, it is true, people abuse the system.
I didn't meant to offend anyone.
I had a friend who had a major psychotic crisis and was in hospital being cared for straight away. She is now functioning fully and enjoying life. She doesn't work and didn't pay a penny. That's what socialised health care means to me.
I'm sure no one has taken offence, Scott, there is none to be taken from what I can see. Just differing opinions & discussion. So, don't worry.
I critical of many areas of the NHS but I would much rather we retain & fix it than sell off to insurance leeches. There are parts of private that are better for patients but the public system provides many more safeguards that we would be better keeping.
Aside from making efficiency improvements, as the public sector can be terrible for wasting cash, we should pump more money in. I would like to see a party include a % increase in taxes that goes only to the NHS as part of their manifesto. Sadly, people value their Xboxs more and moan.
What would a 1% increase do for the NHS? Surely a lot. Yet people will moan they can't buy some shoes or a pack of fags.
I agree, Terry. Mustn't stop people being able to afford their fags and plasma screens though..
My son was born with major congenital abnormalities and had to spend months at Great Ormond Street hospital for extensive and complex surgery just to enable him to be able to eat. (He has Vater's syndrome and was born with no oesophagus and other organ abnormalities)God knows what I would have done if it weren't for the NHS because how on earth could an average couple pay for that?
Hi Pulisa...God bless you (and your son)...a tough road to hoe. Just to let you know if you were here your son would also receive the very best of care no matter their income level. Up until Obamacare people would buy health insurance which in turn would pay fot their healthcare. But Obamacare has caused insurance premiums to skyrocket out of sight. And that's the problem.
N.
Thanks for explaining. Do you buy different levels of healthcare according to what you can afford or could the poorest person with the most complex illness/condition access the highest level of medical expertise? My son is now 32 by the way and surviving nicely with his stomach in his chest cavity but he sees the experts in this field and will do for life. I suppose the premiums for this would be at the top of the scale?
MyNameIsTerry
27-10-17, 17:56
We've all got insurance too but we call it NI. I prefer this way rather than lining insurance company's pockets when all they really do is finance each other & shuffle paper around.
---------- Post added at 17:56 ---------- Previous post was at 17:52 ----------
Sometimes I just despair at the b*llock brained ideas some people come up with:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/25/nhs-to-pilot-airbnb-type-scheme-for-patients-recovering-from-surgery
God please tell me the elderly are exempt from this.
:doh::wall:
Thankfully this bonkers scheme has been ditched now..."We never planned on doing it until the safeguarding was right", yeah whatever mate. This idea never should have made it out of a management consultants brainstorming session. A legal minefield.
The cottage hospitals used to greatly help. They can't simply argue it's because they closed them years ago either as there is still one near where I live and they were trying to shut yet more wards in it just over a year ago. So, despite the dire need they still close then down. :doh:
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