View Full Version : HA turning into depression?
I've reached a point where I've exhausted myself from the 24/7 anxiety - my adrenals are probably shot - and have just become more or less resigned to the idea of having ALS. I can't even get into a proper panic about it anymore. It is what it is. I guess the gloomy weather isn't helping, nor my low vitamin D levels. Anyone else found themselves going from high anxiety to low, low depression?
(Please don't tell me to see a doctor; I can't until the new year. There's one shrink in the county and I've already exhausted his expertise. He didn't want to do talk therapy, just wanted to prescribe all the drugs.)
MyNameIsTerry
03-12-17, 01:31
You can't be pumping out adrenaline all the time. High periods of anxiety are often followed by periods of feeling "washed out" or after panic attacks too where DP/DR can also occur.
It's a transient, short term depression which is more low mood than a clinical form. And it's common with anxiety.
I found my latest med put me into cycling moods but resolved it with high strength Omega 3. My moods have been balanced ever since.
Thanks for the reminder! I have some fish oil I keep forgetting to take. I think you're right. It's not a true depression, more a generalised numbing fatigue.
---------- Post added at 17:38 ---------- Previous post was at 17:37 ----------
I do feel pretty hopeless, which is why I thought depression
If you're ruling out meds and therapy ("until the New Year") then at least try a good multivitamin supplement and additional Vit D. Perhaps you've tried all that too?
Then lay off all these forums and watch an episode of Family Guy :D
MyNameIsTerry
03-12-17, 01:48
Science is undecided on Omega 3, some studies show they work and others show they do nothing but I know it worked for me because I stopped it once and slid back into the same cycles and restarting took it away. It wasn't about my anixety, it had only started happening since my new med.
It;s supposed to be about "unopposed" EPA. The supplements make that hard because they contain DHA too. But even with a small unopposed EPA % per day I have found them really helpful.
The vitamin D is likely a benefit too.
I've seen anxiety "gurus" talk about how anxiety & depression can't come together simply because one has you bouncing off the walls and the other has you slumped in bed all day. It shows a total lack of understanding on their part, anxiety & depression have high comorbidity levels but it's common sense you don't spend 24/7 on high alert every day of your life but can still have anxiety symptoms. The body is releasing adrenaline keeping us having anxiety symptoms but we have opposing neurotransmitters that aim to balance it, such as GABA & Serotonin, so we end up swinging a bit. It's when you are at the severe end of anxiety that's it's non stop but that doesn't stop you having periods where you drift into more depressive states and back again.
I spent some time looking into whether I was bipolar because of this issue. Then I wored out it had only started when I went onto this med. At that point I just loked for natural solutions to balance it out and get lucky. I've seen others talk about wondering about being bipolar due to the mood swings in their anxiety and coming to similiar conclusions.
What I do is not be quick to judge a new symptom. Unless you see a pattern, it's not worth considering (which isn't easy obviously, I'm in a better place to do it these days), and even then it can just be your anxiety changing or passing through different stages.
SADNoMore used vitamin D as she was in an area of Canada were her doctor even said he no longer tests for vitamin D deficiency because they all have it. She found it helped greatly. If you try vitamin D supplements then look at her threads, there is useful information about dosing because over a certauin volume you need to add vitamin K which prevents calcium build ups in the body. You will be fine with fish oil supplements with vitamin D in, vitamin K is more when you start using high strength vitamin D supplements.
Yeah, I try to avoid supplementing with D because it's a hormone, not a vitamin, but I do know about the importance of K2 in avoiding calcium ending up where you don't want it. Good thing I LOVE gouda!
Off to eat me some adaptogens and watch me some Family Guy. Thanks for listening, you two :)
MyNameIsTerry
03-12-17, 02:17
Hah! I've just watched it. I'm onto American Dad now. Laughing - the best medicine! :yesyes:
I'm a Quark eater so I'm sorted for K2. :yesyes: (that's the cheese, not the alien bar owner in Star Trek Deep Space Nine! :biggrin:)
Adaptagens are interesting. I'm thinking of trying ashwagandha out. I used to take Siberian ginseng years ago (before my anxiety days started) and found it helpful for health.
How about some self-help books, Mel?
I feel this way too, only just last night realised my HA is ruining my life and making me feel depressed. I agree the time of year and weather etc probably is adding to it.
Currently I'm trying meditating and getting back to exercising/eating better to see if it brings me back. Just now I feel like I'm not living my life and just hurtling through the weeks. :/
Wow Mel...
This is a very sad post to read :weep: You don't want to hear about real life professional help nor do you want to take meds, the free CBT self help doesn't work for you and you've resigned yourself to dying from something you don't have :shrug:
All I can say is I hope you find a way out of the rabbit hole.
Sending best wishes and as always...
Positive thoughts
This happened to me 10 years ago, ironically over a fear of MND as well. I went from a period of high anxiety into a period of darkness. Looking back now, it must have been quite bad because I have very few memories of that year, it just seemed as if there was a veil between me and what was going in in the outside world. After several months, I couldn’t take the worry any more and went to see my GP who referred me for CBT. I didn’t think it would work, but it did. I still have HA, but rarely reassurance-seek, preferring to rationalise instead. You can come back from this. I agree with others that the time of year magnifies your feelings, particularly when you see others getting excited by the festivities and enjoying life.
It's not that I don't want help, I just can't find it where I live. Ugh.
I do have a huge book on health anxiety that's actually designed for therapists, and I've read a lot of it. it's a fantastic resource. The problem is, I don't actually fully believe what I have is health anxiety. I still think a lot of the time that I am a hypochondriac who happens to have ALS. So that's the battle I'm having with myself. That's where I'm at.
I have a bunch of legit health concerns too. I am a glaucoma suspect. And I've just developed Raynaud's, which at my age is probably secondary to an autoimmune issue. So there's a lot going on and I am weary.
Darwin, how did you finally get over your ALS fear?
Mel, the only way you're going to get out of this is if you change your mindset. You just rattled off all the things that could be going wrong with you, what about the things going right? What are the faculties and abilities that you still have?
Legit health concerns are wearying. I know that first hand. I don't doubt you have physical symptoms. Hell, if anyone here spent 24 hours on this old beat up body of mine, I could only imagine the thread they's write! :scared15:
The difference I see is that the physical symptoms I have don't lead me immediately to the worst case scenario or consulting Dr. Google and other websites trying to validate something I "know" isn't true. And believe me, some of my physical symptoms I wouldn't wish on anyone! You on the other hand are hanging onto the least possible scenario with all your might and don't ever realize it :weep:
I'm glad you have some written resources you're reading. Have you looked into face to face therapy via the internet? I know there are some very good and reputable therapists that can meet face to face online. Why not contact www.mentalhealth.gov and ask for recommendations or a resource you can look into? You gotta do something 'cause this sure ain't working too well :shrug:
Positive thoughts
Darwin, how did you finally get over your ALS fear?
The CBT really helped me to see my symptoms in a different light, and to appreciate that I always jumped to the worse possible, least likely, scenario instead of far more likely explanations. I guess it helped me get some perspective which I really didn’t have. Also, the passing of time with no progression made me realise that my symptoms must be attributable to more benign causes.
Don’t get me wrong, I did have real symptoms; twitching in all muscle groups that were observed by other people, a feeling of weakness; even cutlery felt heavy and I felt I couldn’t control a fork properly. If anyone had told me at the time that all these symptoms were exacerbated by anxiety, I would never have believed them. What I think now is that I did have some initial muscle twitching (which I still get from time to time), but the stress and anxiety of worrying about it 24/7 just made the whole thing seem out of control. I think the chemicals released by your body when you are subjected to periods of prolonged anxiety can also cause twitching.
Hi Melfish,
A lot of times psychiatrists won't do the therapy part of treatment. They will just do medication management. So you may need to find a separate therapist who you can do regular sessions with and talk to more.
Anxiety is exhausting. And sometimes I feel down when my anxiety gets the better of me. It only makes sense that your body can only stay in that heightened state for so long.
If you are unable to do any treatment right now, there are other things you can do if you want to. One thing I have really found helpful is yoga. You don't have to pay for yoga classes either. There are lots of free yoga teachers on youtube. The one I love is "Yoga with Adriene" who offers hundreds of videos for all levels and the focus really is on self-care and health. She's got videos for low moods, anxiety, etc. There are ones that really are not too difficult. I have Raynaud's as well, though mine is hereditary. It's a pain in the a** in winter. But keeping my joints loose and blood flowing can be helpful sometimes.
There are lots of options if you can't get into treatment. Self-help books, CBT4Panic, etc. It just comes down to picking one and giving it a chance.
I hope you feel better and wish you the best.
Hi Melfish,
A lot of times psychiatrists won't do the therapy part of treatment. They will just do medication management. So you may need to find a separate therapist who you can do regular sessions with and talk to more.
Anxiety is exhausting. And sometimes I feel down when my anxiety gets the better of me. It only makes sense that your body can only stay in that heightened state for so long.
If you are unable to do any treatment right now, there are other things you can do if you want to. One thing I have really found helpful is yoga. You don't have to pay for yoga classes either. There are lots of free yoga teachers on youtube. The one I love is "Yoga with Adriene" who offers hundreds of videos for all levels and the focus really is on self-care and health. She's got videos for low moods, anxiety, etc. There are ones that really are not too difficult. I have Raynaud's as well, though mine is hereditary. It's a pain in the a** in winter. But keeping my joints loose and blood flowing can be helpful sometimes.
There are lots of options if you can't get into treatment. Self-help books, CBT4Panic, etc. It just comes down to picking one and giving it a chance.
I hope you feel better and wish you the best.
Thank you! I bought a little meditation cushion ages but have been overwhelmed by where to start, as I have a poor track record with stilling my mind long enough to meditate. I am going to find a mindfulness youtube video today and make a start. Enough procrastinating!
I have only had two "episodes" of Raynaud's. Just my middle right finger went white after cold exposure each time. It didn't go blue or red. I'm taking a bunch of supplements already which should be beneficial to it, as I have migraine and retinal vasospasm already. I think I just have wonky blood flow in general, along with the low blood pressure. It doesn't freak me out in and of itself, but I do need to get the ANA test to see if anything else is lurking behind it.
I didn't realise that about psychiatrists! I thought it was all about talking. So I was surprised each time I went to this Stanford professor (!) and we just made general chitchat as he figured out what to prescribe. He was a very nice man and someone I could be friends with, but he had no intention of working my brain out lol.
---------- Post added at 09:06 ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 ----------
Thanks Darwin, Fish and Antsy. I have realised I indulge my negative thinking, let it run riot. I need to challenge and redirect it, duh, rather than being at its whim. Even in what could be beautiful moments, I let it raise its ugly head. I guess in a way I'm scared of shutting it down - fearful of what will replace it, and also of letting my guard down and being horribly surprised down the track. I need to learn to live in the moment, and hopefully meditation/mindfulness will help with this.
I have similar difficulties with meditation, which is why I focus more on mindfulness, where you don't "quiet" your mind but instead practice acknowledging your thoughts without judging them and letting them pass. I also find yoga helpful because it's like a moving meditation, so I can focus my mind on the body sensations and that seems to be a little easier for me. I'm glad you are going to give the mindfulness videos a try!
Poor you Melfish- sorry you are having such a rough time at the moment. Periods of low mood and feelings of hopelessness are normal interludes in the adrenaline fuelled horror of high anxiety. The brain cannot sustain panic for long, so that is when the dip - and feelings of depression- occur.
You don't have ALS, and I think you know that deep down. You have been worrying about this for a long time and your symptoms have not progressed and also it is a REALLY rare disease. But your brain has trained itself to THINK you have ALS. The problem is in your brain not your body.
Have you ruled medication out? I actually find it does help. I take Setraline. (I'm still mad- but I'm worse without it!!!)
I really do relate to what you are going through though Mel - I am going through just the same cycle of panic and depression myself.....
Stay strong
Xxx
I found a piece of music which is allegedly the most relaxing peace of music ever recorded. Big claim. Personally, I like Chopin and Bach.
I think we both posted at the same time!
"Just wanted to prescribe all the drugs"
You don't think you need one or two of them? Hanging onto fatal obscure diseases you don't have is not healthy. Like, I actually remember PM'ing you from the beach several months ago about ALS. My cold ass is so far removed from that sand that the idea you still think you have ALS despite not having any actual symptoms is complete lunacy to me.
Poor you Melfish- sorry you are having such a rough time at the moment. Periods of low mood and feelings of hopelessness are normal interludes in the adrenaline fuelled horror of high anxiety. The brain cannot sustain panic for long, so that is when the dip - and feelings of depression- occur.
You don't have ALS, and I think you know that deep down. You have been worrying about this for a long time and your symptoms have not progressed and also it is a REALLY rare disease. But your brain has trained itself to THINK you have ALS. The problem is in your brain not your body.
Have you ruled medication out? I actually find it does help. I take Setraline. (I'm still mad- but I'm worse without it!!!)
I really do relate to what you are going through though Mel - I am going through just the same cycle of panic and depression myself.....
Stay strong
Xxx
I've not ruled out medication at all. Benzos, yes. I don't want to get hooked on those *******s of diminishing return. But I've made a note of a few SSRI's people have mentioned have helped them. I really don't want to live like this, as much as my posting might suggest the opposite. It's bloody miserable. Thanks for your reply :)
---------- Post added at 14:19 ---------- Previous post was at 14:18 ----------
"Just wanted to prescribe all the drugs"
You don't think you need one or two of them? Hanging onto fatal obscure diseases you don't have is not healthy. Like, I actually remember PM'ing you from the beach several months ago about ALS. My cold ass is so far removed from that sand that the idea you still think you have ALS despite not having any actual symptoms is complete lunacy to me.
Was it really summer when you were bollocking me via PM? My how time flies when you are mired in misery.
I love my med. I would tell you to try it if I thought you would. However, usually the worst HA people freak out over meds.
I love my med. I would tell you to try it if I thought you would. However, usually the worst HA people freak out over meds.
Not me. I'll eat em all if they'll help. Which one do you take?
---------- Post added at 19:20 ---------- Previous post was at 19:18 ----------
(When I went to see the shrink, I was after talk therapy. It was way before my HA started back up)
I take Lexapro. 15 mg daily. Had no start up effects except for a craving for potato chips. No libido problems either. If anything, I’d say the libido is better on it.
In regards to psychiatrists, they aren’t all intent on prescribing medication. Mine certainly wasn’t. In fact, he steered me away from meds. Also, every single session we had for almost 3 years was dedicated to talking.
You always come across as very logical. I sometimes think it is the more logical individuals who need therapy more than those who aren’t so logical. Although I believe everyone with HA can benefit from therapy. Logical individuals just can’t deal with something as illogical as HA. Psychiatrist are very logical individuals and you should keep searching for one you can work with.
In the UK psychiatrists prescribe and psychologists "talk". From my experience it wasn't possible to see a psychiatrist unless I was prepared to take med after med. I think your experience sounded hugely beneficial, swajj. And it obviously worked!
My psych helped me recover pulisa. Psychologists here also provide CBT. Surely there are some psychiatrists in your country who provide CBT. It is very common here.
My psych helped me recover pulisa. Psychologists here also provide CBT. Surely there are some psychiatrists in your country who provide CBT. It is very common here.
I don't think so but maybe there are some somewhere? There's a clear demarcation line between psychiatrists and psychologists here.
Well I’m glad I’m not there. A good psychologist, preferably with experience in treating anxiety then.
Hopefully Mel will have a better option where she is?
Yes hopefully she will pulisa xx
Here in the states it really depends on the provider, where they work, and what type of work they choose to do. At every clinic I worked at, the psychiatrist only did the medication piece and the therapists did the talk-therapy. That is usually what will happen if you go to an agency or a clinic for treatment.
However if you search for a private psychiatrist, again it depends on that provider. Some psychiatrists do offer therapy services. A lot of them do not and strictly do the medication management piece. If you can find a good psychiatrist who also does therapy, you are lucky.
Another factor to consider would be if your insurance is willing to pay a LOT more for a psychiatrist to provide therapy to you vs. a lesser rate for a therapist. Sometimes our insurance plans make that choice for us.
---------- Post added at 07:45 ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 ----------
But, believe it or not, psychiatrists are not trained as extensively in counseling and therapy as therapists are. Psychiatrists are medical doctors, so they have to go through all of the medical training that any doctor goes through on top of psychiatry. So yes, they can be very well-versed in certain therapies if they have gotten additional training, but a masters-level therapist truly focused all their schooling on therapy. But that's just my opinion and I am a little biased :)
Well, this sheds some light. I'm from Australia originally, and there psychiatrists talk. I saw one for ages and we didn't even discuss meds. I didn't know about the demarcation here. I just assumed it was the same. I guess I need to be looking for a psychologist. Thanks, all.
Pulisa, that's an interesting point you make about logical people and HA. It baffles me so much and I think I spend about as much time fretting about the absurdity of my situation as I do worrying about ALS.
---------- Post added at 08:49 ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 ----------
JoJo, I reread my reply to your last comment and it sounded curt and/or dismissive. That wasn't my intention. I found your post really helpful and encouraging and it gave me some perspective last night, which is why I read it again this morning. Thank you :)
Mel, swajj is the one who made the link between logical thinking and HA. I'm sure this will give you something to think about and consider?
I hope today has been more bearable for you.
oops, my mistake. Yes, it has been actually! I worked out yesterday and today, and feel more positive overall :)
[/COLOR]JoJo, I reread my reply to your last comment and it sounded curt and/or dismissive. That wasn't my intention. I found your post really helpful and encouraging and it gave me some perspective last night, which is why I read it again this morning. Thank you :)[/QUOTE]
nooooo! It wasn't curt or dismissive! Actually, just knowing you are out there, riding this same silly rollercoaster, really helps ME! I just wish this beast would let up for a while - I am exhausted and by the sounds of it you are too.
Xxxx
[/QUOTE]nooooo! It wasn't curt or dismissive! Actually, just knowing you are out there, riding this same silly rollercoaster, really helps ME! I just wish this beast would let up for a while - I am exhausted and by the sounds of it you are too.
Xxxx[/QUOTE]
Yes, a breather would be nice! I am thinking the key is to stop fighting it. It's just hardwiring our brains to perceive our symptoms as a threat, and to react accordingly, which results in more symptoms. There's nothing I can change through worry anyhow. It's a wasted effort. I need to redirect my energy somewhere else. Like mindfulness. :shrug:
---------- Post added at 18:21 ---------- Previous post was at 14:43 ----------
Ugh, triggered by a post on here :weep:
[/COLOR]Ugh, triggered by a post on here :weep:[/QUOTE]
Mediatate! Then go for a run! You are fine!
It's crazy how a random comment by a stranger on the internet can send me into a nosedive. So irrational, yet so real
What was it about?
ALS, of course :/
That ALS twitches required a "special light" to detect
How long do you think you have had ALS/bulbar for? How does your perceived ALS affect your ability to work out?
I'm worried about bulbar, so it doesn't affect my ability to work out. I feel like my speech is affected
Ok googled . Also feeling a bit triggered by it! But you are right - it is highly irrational. Highly highly irrational. It is no more likely to apply to you or me than the bubonic plague!
(So says my sensible brain. The other bit is detecting micro fasiculations I my leg!!).
---------- Post added at 21:20 ---------- Previous post was at 21:17 ----------
I'm worried about bulbar, so it doesn't affect my ability to work out. I feel like my speech is affected
Me too! And I run everyday. My dad - a retired doctor - saw me running the other day and actually laughed at my stupid conviction I have ALS. To the outside world it does look beyond absurd!
---------- Post added at 21:23 ---------- Previous post was at 21:20 ----------
Of course you do know bulbar onset is the rarest - and fastest progressing - form of the disease?
[/COLOR]Of course you do know bulbar onset is the rarest - and fastest progressing - form of the disease?
That's the only thing keeping me from going off the deep end, tbh
That's the only thing keeping me from going off the deep end, tbh
The only thing? If you have your rational brain on - and I can tell you are good at thinking rationally- what evidence is there that you have bulbar onset ALS ?
Quivering tongue; asymmetrical and/or deviated tongue, uvula, and palate; speech difficulties. They are the main ones. I also feel like my left hand and arm are a bit off (but I'm right-handed and the mind is powerful). I also scared shitless I have abnormal reflexes to the point where I avoid touching my feet and won't let my husband give me foot massages, which he is finding very odd :/
Quivering tongue; asymmetrical and/or deviated tongue, uvula, and palate; speech difficulties. They are the main ones. I also feel like my left hand and arm are a bit off (but I'm right-handed and the mind is powerful). I also scared shitless I have abnormal reflexes to the point where I avoid touching my feet and won't let my husband give me foot massages, which he is finding very odd :/
Ha ha - yes! I am constantly testing my "brisk" reflexes too! Do you think anyone who didn't suffer from health anxiety would've noticed your symptoms?
Ha ha - yes! I am constantly testing my "brisk" reflexes too! Do you think anyone who didn't suffer from health anxiety would've noticed your symptoms?
No, but tbh I don't find that particularly reassuring. Have you seen the state of some people when they finally go to the doctors? Some people have boils as big as their heads
No, but tbh I don't find that particularly reassuring. Have you seen the state of some people when they finally go to the doctors? Some people have boils as big as their heads
Ha ha! No I've never noticed that!:scared15:
It's an exaggeration, but my point is hypervigilance doesn't preclude actual illness, specifically noticing it early
MyNameIsTerry
07-12-17, 01:40
Ha ha - yes! I am constantly testing my "brisk" reflexes too! Do you think anyone who didn't suffer from health anxiety would've noticed your symptoms?
As a non HAer, yes & no. Yes, I may notice something but no I won't think it's anything more than the body doing what the body does.
I'm symptom focussed so I notice things more than I ever did before but I know they are just anxiety or something else that's benign and whilst I hate how they feel, I just don't go into obsessing over them being something more.
I get a thought flashing in "what if it's more" and an automatic "whatever" comes with it. That same response is what comes with the intrusive thoughts that used to scare me, and I know I'm long over my intrusive thoughts, so I see this as a good measure of where HAers will get as they beat it. Just like with intrusive thoughts (and a lot of HA includes these) it's not getting rid of them since they are just part of human brain function, it's not giving them importance so the mind just moves on intuitively.
Prior to anxiety, I may or may not have noticed something, most likely not.
---------- Post added at 01:40 ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 ----------
No, but tbh I don't find that particularly reassuring. Have you seen the state of some people when they finally go to the doctors? Some people have boils as big as their heads
It's an exaggeration, but my point is hypervigilance doesn't preclude actual illness, specifically noticing it early
But these people may have a range of reasons a) can't be arsed, b) hate doctors c) afraid of what may be found (not HAers, just a genuine worry anyone may have),d) don't like to bother doctors (older generation especially) etc.
None of those validate hypervigilance, both are out of balance.
Here’s something that adjusted my perspective today: at least we aren’t having our homes burnt down by the fires. Forty horses were lost up by Fillmore/Santa Paula. Makes me sick to my stomach, as an animal lover. I hope your area is safe with these winds, Mel.
Here’s something that adjusted my perspective today: at least we aren’t having our homes burnt down by the fires. Forty horses were lost up by Fillmore/Santa Paula. Makes me sick to my stomach, as an animal lover. I hope your area is safe with these winds, Mel.
Oh I know. The animals break my heart too. Nice and still up here. The Santa Ana winds don't reach this far
Gotcha. I know you said NorCal, but it’s a big state, so I wasn’t sure.
Gotcha. I know you said NorCal, but it’s a big state, so I wasn’t sure.
Yeah, people say NorCal when they're in the Bay Area. I guess that makes me NorNorCal. I'm about halfway between Portland and San Francisco
Glad you are safe ... the footage was terrifying on the news :weep:
Glad you are safe ... the footage was terrifying on the news :weep:
Just awful
Being in Socal, it's all NorCal to me until you get to Oregon LOL
Being in Socal, it's all NorCal to me until you get to Oregon LOL
I must have forgotten you were in CA. Are you away from the fires?
Yes, we had a small one that broke out on a hillside this morning, but they put it out quickly. I live by the beach, so usually fires aren’t too big of a thing here *knocks on wood*
Hi Mel- how are you doing? X
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.