View Full Version : Copyright Directive Panic
Guys, this is an emergency! The fate of the free world is at stake! The corporatists are desperate and Article 13 can give them the opportunity to regain the upper hand. You should know that a law like this could mark the beginning of a totalitarian future, because it is impossible to predict how the big companies will abuse it! As you can imagine, I'm terrified. If this goes through I'll have to leave the country, and I can't take that! Please... tell me there's a good side in all this...?
MyNameIsTerry
01-06-18, 11:59
Well, one thing that springs to mind is that this is from the EU and last I looked they could only impact their member states:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52016PC0593
Until we understand what Brexit will even be we won't have a clue how the UK is affected.
Given companies like Facebook just ship out of the EU to avoid things they don't want to do I wonder how ISSP's might respond? And will the EU be able to stop anyone outside of their jurisdiction allowing users within their jurisdiction still doing it?
nomorepanic
01-06-18, 12:00
I have no idea what it is - can you explain?
Why do you have to leave the country?
MyNameIsTerry
01-06-18, 12:16
I have no idea what it is - can you explain?
Why do you have to leave the country?
Me neither, had to look it up. A bit of a quiet potential future EU directive. Look towards the bottom of that link.
There are a few online articles about it. It seems to be an attempt to prevent copyright infringement by forcing ISSPs to add technology to stop it or find infringements.
---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 ----------
On another note, Uganda are imposing a social media tax. That would help the NHS if we did it, diamond encrusted beds all round from the cash that would rake in :biggrin:
https://saveyourinternet.eu/about-this-campaign/
"Article 13 is a provision in the proposed EU Copyright Directive mandating that all content uploaded to the internet be monitored and potentially deleted if a likeness to existing copyrighted content is detected. This provision will be voted on by the end of 2018."
"If you are a creator or independent business, the content that you upload to share with your audience might be deleted without your consent. Creators include but are not limited to artists –such as cartoonists, gamers, illustrators, photographers, documentary filmmakers, animators, musicians, DJs, and dancers,– bloggers, journalists, and technologists."
"Online platforms will be required to implement complex and expensive filtering systems and will be held liable for copyright infringement, potentially incurring fines that threaten their economic viability."
This would be disastrous. We wouldn't be able to create anything anymore!
nomorepanic
01-06-18, 12:40
I don't think it is disastrous at all - it is stopping people stealing other people's work.
Why do you have to leave the country over this - I don't understand.
Check it again: Article 13 would restrict the ability of Internet users to consume content – meaning they won’t be able to find and enjoy diverse kinds of cultural expressions that they have grown accustomed to. The days of communicating through gifs and memes, listening to our favourite remixes online or sharing videos of our friends singing at karaoke might be coming to an end.
Ultimately, the internet culture that has emerged in recent years – a culture that enables connections and democratises information – will become bureaucratic and restrictive. Many of your daily activities on the Internet will no longer be possible, blocked by automated filters that are unable to recognize your rights under EU law.
MyNameIsTerry
01-06-18, 13:11
That's one interpretation of it. I can't say in too concerned about memes to be honest.
Another might be that companies will have to invest more money in this technology, hence be adversely affected and as big companies lobby against it, and copyright owners will have to field tons more requests costing them money.
And what about software that allows copyright infringement, or perhaps enables it is a better phrase? Won't that need banning across the EU too? So more lost cash by companies.
I doubt banning karaoke is likely. By a similiar token will they also be banning you using copyrighted phraseology? Funnily enough much of this actually gains publicity for brands.
I don't think it is disastrous at all - it is stopping people stealing other people's work.
Why do you have to leave the country over this - I don't understand.Nor me Nic cant see what all the fuss is about and really don't give a monkey's about it there's more important things to worry about :huh: ATB
there's more important things to worry about :huh: ATB
True, but then again, is it any different or irrational than a brain eating amoeba or the myriad of irrational fears posted here?
Positive thoughts
I refer you to my post above.
True, but then again, is it any different or irrational than a brain eating amoeba or the myriad of irrational fears posted here?
Positive thoughtsTrue I guess it's another fear to some people :) Have you read the article? ATB
MyNameIsTerry
01-06-18, 15:57
True I guess it's another fear to some people :) Have you read the article? ATB
Well it could be a problem for any website including this one. All those memes we've posted on here for instance would be illegal as the owner hasn't agreed their use on here. :winks:
Imagine any of us cut & pasting sections of websites, we would have to ensure the owner has stated that's allowed and how is Nic going to know? And Nic would also have to have a policy about use of info on here that she owns.
But it's a very vague policy and as such is likely to get thrashed out into something a bit more realistic. At the moment it's open to the conspiracy theorist.
But then don't the EU parliament vote down various bilge raised?
Anyway I thought the internet was going to collapse because the government want age verification and people buying porn passes from the local newsagent? "A pack of polos, copy of The Times and oh, erm, a porn pass please" :noangel::biggrin:
True I guess it's another fear to some people :) Have you read the article? ATB
Yep, and I see it as a positive to protect the original artists. I'm in the music/print industry and understand these laws (at least the US laws) quite well. I wouldn't want something I created or a likeness to be used without permission. Creativity is about originality. I can't see how this would hinder anyone's creative process.
Positive thoughts
MyNameIsTerry
01-06-18, 16:20
We've already got copyright laws that can be enforced and have had for a long time. This is an advancement to tighter regulation of the Single Market.
It seems it's about putting the emphasis onto ISSPs employing software to stop it more thoroughly. The rest of the world outside of the EU member states can keep doing what they do now but those inside member states will be getting shielded by new software in a way that sounds like how they already have media blackouts for super injunctions.
But won't people just get around it with VPN's?
The argument for Internet people is that it's all the slippery slope. Our government wants to protect children from accessing damaging online porn through age verification and you want to see the complaining that has unleashed...by adults. The government wants to push the Dark Web further away and the same crowd complain their rights are being infringed because the internet should be a free place.
That "free place" has been a festering pit of hate & criminality since it's creation. But people are also concerned this is the slippery slope to being another Russia or China. And now Uganda where the pres is annoyed with dissent so now he can collect taxes and tie you better to your comments...which is worrying in such a country. I bet a lot if Americans would be annoyed given their Amendments arguments.
It's a Trump wall! :biggrin: But then so are many areas of EU policy that maintain higher standards e.g. US foods being prevented from our shores, a concern for our post Brexit world.
Well it could be a problem for any website including this one. All those memes we've posted on here for instance would be illegal as the owner hasn't agreed their use on here. :winks:
Imagine any of us cut & pasting sections of websites, we would have to ensure the owner has stated that's allowed and how is Nic going to know? And Nic would also have to have a policy about use of info on here that she owns.
But it's a very vague policy and as such is likely to get thrashed out into something a bit more realistic. At the moment it's open to the conspiracy theorist.
But then don't the EU parliament vote down various bilge raised?
Anyway I thought the internet was going to collapse because the government want age verification and people buying porn passes from the local newsagent? "A pack of polos, copy of The Times and oh, erm, a porn pass please" :noangel::biggrin:Tbh with you I think its unforcable every corner of the Globe has some sort of internet connection So it's impossible to 'police' every single post, comment, pasted things etc. so that's another reason why it's not really worth worrying about. Exactly it will get amended lots of times before this gets passed. ATB
---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:35 ----------
We've already got copyright laws that can be enforced and have had for a long time. This is an advancement to tighter regulation of the Single Market.
It seems it's about putting the emphasis onto ISSPs employing software to stop it more thoroughly. The rest of the world outside of the EU member states can keep doing what they do now but those inside member states will be getting shielded by new software in a way that sounds like how they already have media blackouts for super injunctions.
But won't people just get around it with VPN's?
The argument for Internet people is that it's all the slippery slope. Our government wants to protect children from accessing damaging online porn through age verification and you want to see the complaining that has unleashed...by adults. The government wants to push the Dark Web further away and the same crowd complain their rights are being infringed because the internet should be a free place.
That "free place" has been a festering pit of hate & criminality since it's creation. But people are also concerned this is the slippery slope to being another Russia or China. And now Uganda where the pres is annoyed with dissent so now he can collect taxes and tie you better to your comments...which is worrying in such a country. I bet a lot if Americans would be annoyed given their Amendments arguments.
It's a Trump wall! :biggrin: But then so are many areas of EU policy that maintain higher standards e.g. US foods being prevented from our shores, a concern for our post Brexit world.Exactly Terry And yes the use of VPN's and heavily encrypted browsers so people will get round it for sure ;) And rightly so we have to protect our children (the internet has a lot to answer for regarding this sadly) As the same applies to the horrible dark web, I am sure I read some where the creator of the WWW is actually saddened by this, who is to blame? The damn people of this planet (not every one mind you) ATB
---------- Post added at 16:54 ---------- Previous post was at 16:47 ----------
Yep, and I see it as a positive to protect the original artists. I'm in the music/print industry and understand these laws (at least the US laws) quite well. I wouldn't want something I created or a likeness to be used without permission. Creativity is about originality. I can't see how this would hinder anyone's creative process.
Positive thoughts Yes I can understand that FMP Guess we see what happens! ATB
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44546620
Good bye internet https://forum.zdoom.org/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif
Catherine S
22-06-18, 23:10
Not sure losing the internet would be a problem Frank...frankly. However, if Maccie-D's stopped making Big Macs, THAT would be catastrophic :ohmy:::D
You should know that I started having suicidal thoughts since I heard the news. I mean, I reckon I'll be okay with Amazon and Steam and that, but... how can I go on without fan sites, fan works - any of that? I'll never be able to watch Twitch TV again! What'll be the point of going on?
You should know that I started having suicidal thoughts since I heard the news. I mean, I reckon I'll be okay with Amazon and Steam and that, but... how can I go on without fan sites, fan works - any of that? I'll never be able to watch Twitch TV again! What'll be the point of going on? Frank I think you are putting too many eggs in one basket (and yes we are all different) but seriously you can go on with out it, there is more to life than the internet Frank take care ATB
MyNameIsTerry
23-06-18, 12:42
It will now go to the wider European Parliament to vote on in July.
Who may vote it down. Remember it's a bunch of MEP's on a committee not the wider Parliament.
Not everything is passed just like in our system. So plenty of opportunity for some thickly stuffed brown envelopes :whistles:
If your life is not worth living without internet freedom then you already need to be seeing your GP for help. It's unhealthy to be so revolved around the internet.
On another note I strongly dislike this lazy journalistic trend of "a Twitter user said..." which lifts a comment from any loon on what is a network for daft hyperbole. They create whole stories from a few people having a moan on Twitter these days. An expert, fine, but not the man down the pub.
It will now go to the wider European Parliament to vote on in July.
Who may vote it down. Remember it's a bunch of MEP's on a committee not the wider Parliament.
Not everything is passed just like in our system. So plenty of opportunity for some thickly stuffed brown envelopes :whistles:
If your life is not worth living without internet freedom then you already need to be seeing your GP for help. It's unhealthy to be so revolved around the internet.
On another note I strongly dislike this lazy journalistic trend of "a Twitter user said..." which lifts a comment from any loon on what is a network for daft hyperbole. They create whole stories from a few jump times having a moan on Twitter these days. An expert, fine, but not the man down the pub. Nicely put Terry and yet so true :) Love the last few words btw, but not the man down the pub:yesyes: ATB
If your life is not worth living without internet freedom then you already need to be seeing your GP for help. It's unhealthy to be so revolved around the internet.
I don't think my GP is an MEP who can stop this madness. Do you remember SOPA? This is just like that... we need everybody to band together and fight back! And I do mean everybody! If we can't do that, it's over!
MyNameIsTerry
24-06-18, 16:23
I don't think my GP is an MEP who can stop this madness. Do you remember SOPA? This is just like that... we need everybody to band together and fight back! And I do mean everybody! If we can't do that, it's over!
What use is a MEP? Anyway with Brexit this may not ever cover us. And you do realise it's just the EU? You can VPN around it. Companies themselves host outside of certain areas to avoid regulation (Zuckerberg, for instance).
I think your GP is far more relevant. Your mental health is important. Your going to see many big world affairs throughout your life but how many even touch on hit life? The nuclear warnings of my childhood went away, the IRA troubles went away, etc and people just got on with life but if you can't do that because of anxiety it is time to access help.
Maybe you're right, Terry. I've become dependent on the Internet. I know that much. ...but what sort of help can, you know, help me on this?
Anyway with Brexit this may not ever cover us.
Two MEPs from the UK were among those who approved it. I think it'll cover us pretty well!
My anxiety attacks have worsened. Nobody here seems to understand that I'm going to lose everything that matters to me! And so are you! It's going to tear you and the people you care about away from each other!
MyNameIsTerry
29-06-18, 06:06
Frank,
Politicians over here vote for & against all sorts of stuff, good & bad. Voting records are public and it's easy enough to see how many big names in Parliament voted against increasing our rights. So, a couple of MEP's is irrelevant since it's the main vote that matters.
And we don't yet know what our post EU agreements will be (2 years on and it's still like the vote was only last week :doh:) so it's impossible to predict how this could affect us. If we never had the referendum then it would come down to the EU voting and then there may be little we can do as it's so remote other than complain at our MEP's (who I doubt care what most of us think).
But your worries over this are clearly skewed because even if it did happen many people wouldn't even notice and the rest would adapt. It's not so long ago we didn't even have the internet.
We always adapt. Look at the impact of losing manufacturing and traditional industries (coal, steel, pottery, etc) had on the UK. It decimated local towns and causes a lot of hard times for many people. How would you say this possible internet change would compare to that? Or the collapse of the USSR? The Berlin Wall? The Cold War? Increasing terrorism?
Losing your job in an industry that the region was formed around, and nob hunting with many thousands of others made redundant around the same time with the same skills, is understandably a bit impact on your life and that of your family. But losing access to images, music, video, etc seems far less by comparison since you can still pay your bills and not worth where your food & clothing are going to be coming from.
I love in The Potteries and the scars of the collapse can still be seen. But the city has moved on and newer industries have come here.
Is your worry really about what this policy will do? Or more about fearing a perceived big change of anything?
I do think you need to be seeking strategies to challenge your thinking and reduce your reactions to perceived threats such as you can learn in therapy.
I had never even heard of these new controls they wanted to introduce. It makes me wonder whether outside technical circles did anyone care because the industries will lobby it out? I doubt the press would keep a lid on it because we have large circulation by anti EU media outlets and any clamping down on the internet sends many on the left into a frenzy so that brings in left leaning media too as this seems more right wing.
Is your worry really about what this policy will do? Or more about fearing a perceived big change of anything?
You could say that. The whole thing will likely destroy free speech!
MyNameIsTerry
29-06-18, 17:45
You could say that. The whole thing will likely destroy free speech!
If that were the case though I expect our government would be under enormous pressure to change it given the fight for freedom of speech through history. In a democratic country it's just not going to happen without some serious change and I just can't see it whilst we are allowed a vote as eventually it would mean a big shift back to booting out any government that restricted rights...look at the Tories now who are struggling and how an acceptable Labour front bench would have likely landslide May out.
The rise of far right in the EU is obviously a concern but our politics means more voters congregate around the centre hence the current minority government issue.
Given the lack of media attention I just question whether this is considered a bit of a fringe idea that will get nowhere? Or maybe it's piggybacking valid legislation hence will be amended out?
More likely they're just covering it up.
MyNameIsTerry
30-06-18, 01:31
What the anti EU press? Or the left leaning Guardian?
Are they protecting the press from the impact of this? If not, what motive do the press have to cover it up when they live to expose anything like this?
https://www.change.org/p/european-parliament-stop-the-censorship-machinery-save-the-internet?recruiter=20596265&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition
MyNameIsTerry
30-06-18, 18:48
Both suppressed!
And that includes every left wing politician across the EU?
I had never heard of this but it took <1 minute to find the legislation once you posted this thread.
And that includes every left wing politician across the EU?
Outnumbered!
MyNameIsTerry
01-07-18, 01:43
Outnumbered!
You misunderstood my point which was that left leaning politicians would be criticising this. Remember how vocal everyone was about The Snoopers Charter? Or RIPA?
We always adapt. Look at the impact of losing manufacturing and traditional industries (coal, steel, pottery, etc) had on the UK. It decimated local towns and causes a lot of hard times for many people. How would you say this possible internet change would compare to that? Or the collapse of the USSR? The Berlin Wall? The Cold War? Increasing terrorism?
Losing your job in an industry that the region was formed around, and nob hunting with many thousands of others made redundant around the same time with the same skills, is understandably a bit impact on your life and that of your family. But losing access to images, music, video, etc seems far less by comparison since you can still pay your bills and not worth where your food & clothing are going to be coming from.
That's another thing! If we stand by and allow the EU to block the world wide web and strangle one of the largest economies in the world and an outlet for free expression, it would be disastrous for everyone!
MyNameIsTerry
02-07-18, 02:07
That's another thing! If we stand by and allow the EU to block the world wide web and strangle one of the largest economies in the world and an outlet for free expression, it would be disastrous for everyone!
But how is it strangling anything? It's cutting down on those already costing companies money, that would be taxed, because of sharing? How much does sharing memes and other links really generate?
I know they want to try to tax it too but I think some of this stuff is blue sky with a lack of available technology. Trying to trace & charge every website is just never going to happen and what about everyone registering outside of the EU but with a local country extension (who may just jump ship to a different one to get around it)? It's not like with superinjunctions where the law demands all outside sources are blocked to the country.
---------- Post added at 02:07 ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 ----------
https://www.change.org/p/european-parliament-stop-the-censorship-machinery-save-the-internet?recruiter=20596265&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition
627, 580 signed. When did it start?
It would be good to raise one that means Parliament have to address it. Not sure if this does as it looks to be from outside the UK so a lot of the signatories will be invalid to our government.
Trying to trace & charge every website is just never going to happen and what about everyone registering outside of the EU but with a local country extension (who may just jump ship to a different one to get around it)? It's not like with superinjunctions where the law demands all outside sources are blocked to the country.
They can certainly try. Websites would have to segregate EU countries into their own thing where they can be watched.
MyNameIsTerry
02-07-18, 15:43
They can certainly try. Websites would have to segregate EU countries into their own thing where they can be watched.
That would be like hosting services chasing every corner shop & market trader for a few quid. It's nice for governments wanting to force tax chasing onto private business but in reality it just means write offs of lots of small amounts.
Wikipedia have put up notices on their pages. And there's only two days to go now!
The Italian Wikipedia has just blacked out (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Comunicato_3_luglio_2018/en) and we only have less than a day left, so contact your MEP(s) (https://saveyourinternet.eu) (European users) or sign this petition (https://www.change.org/p/european-parliament-stop-the-censorship-machinery-save-the-internet) (Non-European users). DO IT NOW!!!
Well - so we did OK!
https://twitter.com/EFF/status/1014815462155153408
MyNameIsTerry
06-07-18, 15:45
Have to wait and see what amendments they make and see how the re-vote pans out.
That petition is still rocketing up. It will be well over a million although I suspect a lot of non UK signatories in there so out of 500b in the EU countries it might not seem as much let alone the worldwide protesting on it. Still looks good though.
It's interesting some of the "big business" affected by this have been arguing opt outs which might go some way towards explaining why the big media haven't been picking this up since they are going to benefit from it. But at least the BBC are finally reporting on it.
The plans are rejected go to www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology so nothing to worry about :)
It's not over yet.
https://saveyourinternet.eu/
With such a slim majority, I don't know quite what to expect, but if this passes, we'll be stuck with it even if we secede from the EU!
Bump cause this is happening tomorrow. EU users should go here. (https://www.saveyourinternet.eu/)
We lost.
https://musically.com/2018/09/12/article-13-approved-by-european-parliament-by-438-votes-to-226/
---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 ----------
I'm so scared. Surely we should have learnt from SOPA and PIPA. I can't believe this is all happening again. :weep:
nomorepanic
12-09-18, 15:08
What are you scared of?
Haven't you been paying attention?
nomorepanic
12-09-18, 18:28
Things out of my control don't scare me to be honest. I can't change it so just go along with whatever the powers that be decide. What can the "little people" do?
As an American... that's heinous. But, then again, we did elect Donald Trump president, so who am I to talk? I'd also say that things like this usually don't end up as bad as they start/sound. There is A LOT of money to be lost over this and major corporations with an interest in stopping it. Special interest usually wins out in the end, at least over here.
If you don’t know what this means, it's basically then end of how the internet currently is in Europe. Memes? Nope. Youtubers? Bye!
You'd need a license for everything!!!!
And my fellow Americans my be all like, well, what's the big deal for us? It's a Europe deal. No, because the Youtubers there that you love so much? This affects them too!
venusbluejeans
13-09-18, 13:29
que sera sera
Some people I've spoken too have suggested that rioting is the only way forward now.
MyNameIsTerry
15-09-18, 11:51
Some people I've spoken too have suggested that rioting is the only way forward now.
Always a good solution for the need to replace your TV :winks:
Brexit looms. It maybe goodbye EU. Let's remember Europe is a much bigger place than the EU.
nomorepanic
15-09-18, 11:56
Rioting is NOT the way forward at all.
MyNameIsTerry
16-09-18, 01:50
Rioting is NOT the way forward at all.
People are dying due to poverty, losing disability benefits, waiting in hospitals or without adequate nursing care...and idiots want to riot over their rights to write silly remarks over a picture on the internet :doh:
This isn't just about internet pictures. It's about the total annihilation of freedom of speech and human rights! And it ties in with the rise of fascism in Europe too!
nomorepanic
16-09-18, 12:31
I really don't see it as that Frank.
MyNameIsTerry
16-09-18, 13:04
Some things to consider are the fact the experts say the tech doesn't even exist. This is politicians voting for something they want to see but it firmly pushes all the work on the companies to achieve it.
It will be interesting to see if they try to introduce charging mechanisms. That would mean armies of staff chasing payments when this is to spot millions of people posting the odd thing as well as those who do it commercially.
But then all you need to do is host your images outside of the EU and they have no way to enforce anything on you. So does that mean they will have to force search engines to censor what is legally done in other countries?
There are people now who have for years avoided breaches in professional standards simply because they put their websites in another country.
Didn't Facebook do something similar to avoid recent EU law changes? They just shifted their operations outside of the EU yet the customers being serviced are in the EU.
Anyway, Brexit :winks:.
---------- Post added at 13:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:02 ----------
This isn't just about internet pictures. It's about the total annihilation of freedom of speech and human rights! And it ties in with the rise of fascism in Europe too!
Isn't the core issue taking someone else's work without their permission?
That it may be - but if you remember: the politicians behind these articles seem to be either oblivious or completely unconcerned with the issues their constituents have with the bills. I'm getting a sense of financial collusion, and, as I said before, corporatism.
I'm getting a sense of financial collusion, and, as I said before, corporatism.
It's already that way Frank. In the music industry, they quickly figured out a way to monetize the system and record companies, music retail sites and streaming sites are making a fortune and the artists get squat.
My CD gets streamed all over the world. I can look at my stats on CD Baby. Do you know how much I make on a stream from Spotify? Try $.001! That means I have to have 1000 streams to make $1!
There's NOTHING I can do about it either so.....
Positive thoughts
MyNameIsTerry
17-09-18, 01:59
That it may be - but if you remember: the politicians behind these articles seem to be either oblivious or completely unconcerned with the issues their constituents have with the bills. I'm getting a sense of financial collusion, and, as I said before, corporatism.
I seriously doubt they understand it. The whole legislation just demands something but doesn't define how to achieve it and pushes all the hassle onto private companies. In some ways this might be a bonus because it will give those companies a powerful lobby to push back with. The other side will be such as the music companies & artists so it might become a matter of who moans the most and I get the impression this has been a bit muted as where are the likes of Google not wishing to spends many millions on this project?
It may just be removed again?
I don't think constituents really matter with this one. It's just not a big issue to many of them. And it's MEP's, can anyone even point their MEP? That's been one of the reasons for Brexit, the remoteness of Brussels. How do Brussels have a clue what the average person wants?
The EU was conceived for big business, it helped the common man with some rights along the way but it was always about fat cats. It's nice to be able to move around Europe (I should say the EU such Europe is a much bigger place) but hasn't anyone thought that if it wasn't in the interests of the employers to get all those cheap workers, and drive down wages, those so called rights would never have come into being?
The EU is trying to tighten regs up in some areas e.g. taxation. There are some good things, like harmonisation to cut down on tax haven style countries like ROI (and Junkers country which he was PM for when he introduced these tax reductions! :mad:), but there is too much need for centralisation of it all i.e. an EU minister for finance. They seem to lurch back & forth.
But remember Frank they can't stop VPN's this way. They only cost a couple of £ per month and they are located in countries that don't have legislation supporting divulging client names for a reason. Unless the EU bring in legislation to sort that out they won't stop a lot of people anyway unless they are planning on going full China mode and blocking out lots of websites.
Unless they block out I can't see how this is going to work. Does the legislation prevent me taking material from a US site and posting it inside the EU? If the copyright was infringed on the US side aren't they liable rather than me?
On top of that, some sites are just outright blocking EU IPs at the moment until they can figure out some sort of content filtering system to make their site legal in the EU.
MyNameIsTerry
17-09-18, 10:07
Is that over the GDPR though?
Yes, that is entirely possible. But that's an easier thing to solve - unlike this.
I know it was asked and you gave a general answer, but if something like this became the norm and law, how does this affect you personally and why? What about the thought of this happening is causing you so much anxiety?
Positive thoughts
I already explained this! European People will be basically banned from uploading any fan content!
I won't get new fanfics from people in Europe. I won't get new fan art from people in Europe. Not even memes, or YouTube, or anything!
Because they'll be automatically filtered and blocked!
actualWeeaboo
18-09-18, 18:56
I can honestly empathise in being terrified of how the freedom of the internet may get censored or abused from here on. After the Net Neutrality stuff that happened in the US recently, I got really concerned about how that sort of thing might actually go through and spread to other countries.
Because of how much the internet means to me, and does for me, I shudder at the idea that it could become a restricted place.
I'm bad at keeping up with worldly events, so I generally don't know much about this EU situation at the moment apart from the 'memes are actually going to be banned!!!' junk I've been hearing - which sounds both horrifying and hilariously ridiculous at the same time - but I really don't think it's gonna be that crazy. I may just be talking out of my butt with all this, but I see this whole thing as negative, though not particularly alarming yet. I mean, what can they do? Shitposters and creators aren't gonna stand idly by and let THAT sort of thing happen - it's guaranteed that people would find workarounds.
Besides, like... I know barely anything about law-related stuff, but unless a piece of fan media is being used for monetary gain, shouldn't a lot of creations fall under fair use anyway? Memes, particularly, would without a doubt fall under 'parody or satire' - fair use! Otherwise, censorship often comes from direct wishes of a creator, so unless every media studio on Earth decides they no longer want their fans to have fun with their works, I don't think you should worry about that too much.
Unless you like some of those really stingy game companies, ahahah~
I mean, if we're looking at copyright censorship, YouTube's been doing that forever. YouTube's video removal already happens, no matter what country you're in. If a company doesn't want your content up, they'll strike it. How ridiculous, unnecessary and difficult is it gonna be to keep track of every piece of content on every part of the web? It'll take a long time to sort out even just what the big tech have on their sites alone. Ahaha~
Also, don't VPNs allow users to 'change' a region they're in? Surely if it actually becomes insanely impossible for EU users to retain online freedom, they can utilise those sorts of services. Heck, people will continue to make more of these services available (and better!) to combat that sort of insanity. The amount of online content is incomprehensibly huge and the internet is chock-full of clever folks who want to use it!
I haven't even started on what kind of effect this'll have on the economy. It'll come crashing down!
nomorepanic
18-09-18, 21:57
I really don't think that is going to happen Frank.
I really don't think that is going to happen Frank.
Exactly. Do you really think Europe or any other country or continent would accept that?
Positive thoghts
MyNameIsTerry
19-09-18, 01:31
Yes, that is entirely possible. But that's an easier thing to solve - unlike this.
GDPR wasn't much of anything and I'm unsure why some sites are having trouble with it. :shrug: It is annoying though, constantly being asked to approve cookies every time you go onto certain sites.
I think with this one it will be a matter of seeing what comes out as the final agreement because I just can't see how they can police billions of people linking to any site in the world unless they are going to start blocking non EU sites and even then it's easy enough for someone inside the EU to infringe this over the top element of copyright by linking to an image without permission.
I suppose one way they can get around that is just ensure their site disclaimers are up to date. That covers all material on the site and whether you can copy. They could just add some extra text about whether they allow links or not.
The whole meme and mixing copyrighted music I'm less clear on. We already have copyright laws for the music and if those laws already state you can't do this, what is the issue with this legislation? Is it infringing on personal use?
The tax part is an area to be concerned about because it could affect every internet user. I link to tons of information on here and will continue to do so. But will sites I post, the NHS is one, just add it to their disclaimers that I am entitled to do so hence I avoid being taxed? How on earth can they collect it? What about the revenue chasing side chasing a new pence of billions of users?
That element sounds a bit like the government's mad announcements about chasing small traders for black market work...which is ludicrous.
Exactly. Do you really think Europe or any other country or continent would accept that?
Positive thoghts
Yes, I do!
The whole meme and mixing copyrighted music I'm less clear on. We already have copyright laws for the music and if those laws already state you can't do this, what is the issue with this legislation? Is it infringing on personal use?
Yes, it is!
MyNameIsTerry
19-09-18, 11:32
I haven't even started on what kind of effect this'll have on the economy. It'll come crashing down!
It really won't. The economy is a lot larger than this. And besides, the economy got on well enough long before the internet.
But... all those start-ups! Those little ma-&-pa businesses? All trampled underfoot by the big guys!
I'm struggling to see the logic of how Article 13 will do anything to the economy? It's shortsighted legislation that will hopefully fall by the wayside to a certain degree when people realise just how unworkable it is in real life.
I work with copyright to a certain degree in my line of work and it's a complex business already. But these articles will be interpreted by lawyers in member states. It's not like people will go "no, we have to slump into an economic decline because subclause seven on paragraph three of Article 13 says we have to!".
People are bothered about this because the wording is vague and how it could be interpreted could lead to a crackdown on certain innocent online practices. But theres been many instances of what sound like insanely tight copyright laws that have been softened and clarified by case law.
So by all means write to your MP or MEP about your concerns and add your voice to the dissent, sign petitions, etc., but don't be unduly scared by this. Your anxiety has allowed this to be blown out of all proportion and the dystopian vision of society it's popped in your head is overblown and unnecessary.
What's the point, it's not like they're going to listen...
What's the point, it's not like they're going to listen...
Then what's the point of worrying? :shrug:
Positive thoughts
MyNameIsTerry
22-09-18, 02:15
Activism does clearly work, Frank. But there is a massive difference between doing something for those reasons and reacting to an irrational anxiety disorder. The latter is destructive to your mental health.
Of course they won't listen! Politicians don't care about us, only what they can get for their careers. The trick is to bully them into having to be arsed to do something they would normally not as they just want to phone it in and collect their paychecks. Remember, they are causing deaths through lack of funding so they are hardly going to be concerned about this stuff.
Like axolotl said, this is vague legislation. It's been left that way because the EU are putting the onus on businesses to do the work. Politicians can demand teleporting be introduced if they want but it doesn't mean it will happen.
So, it's the detail that matters. It could come in and be of little influence. There are so many ways around it as it stands and none of those questions have been answered yet.
It's not going to have much influence on the economy, this isn't a big sector and if it was anyway it would be concerning that the economy was dependant on copyright infringements.
I wonder if now it's going ahead there will be a challenge under human rights legislation somehow as this is going to potentially infringe on all citizens who may post links to things and the fair use policy actualWeeaboo mentioned?
---------- Post added at 02:15 ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 ----------
I can honestly empathise in being terrified of how the freedom of the internet may get censored or abused from here on. After the Net Neutrality stuff that happened in the US recently, I got really concerned about how that sort of thing might actually go through and spread to other countries.
Because of how much the internet means to me, and does for me, I shudder at the idea that it could become a restricted place.
I'm bad at keeping up with worldly events, so I generally don't know much about this EU situation at the moment apart from the 'memes are actually going to be banned!!!' junk I've been hearing - which sounds both horrifying and hilariously ridiculous at the same time - but I really don't think it's gonna be that crazy. I may just be talking out of my butt with all this, but I see this whole thing as negative, though not particularly alarming yet. I mean, what can they do? Shitposters and creators aren't gonna stand idly by and let THAT sort of thing happen - it's guaranteed that people would find workarounds.
Besides, like... I know barely anything about law-related stuff, but unless a piece of fan media is being used for monetary gain, shouldn't a lot of creations fall under fair use anyway? Memes, particularly, would without a doubt fall under 'parody or satire' - fair use! Otherwise, censorship often comes from direct wishes of a creator, so unless every media studio on Earth decides they no longer want their fans to have fun with their works, I don't think you should worry about that too much.
Unless you like some of those really stingy game companies, ahahah~
I mean, if we're looking at copyright censorship, YouTube's been doing that forever. YouTube's video removal already happens, no matter what country you're in. If a company doesn't want your content up, they'll strike it. How ridiculous, unnecessary and difficult is it gonna be to keep track of every piece of content on every part of the web? It'll take a long time to sort out even just what the big tech have on their sites alone. Ahaha~
Also, don't VPNs allow users to 'change' a region they're in? Surely if it actually becomes insanely impossible for EU users to retain online freedom, they can utilise those sorts of services. Heck, people will continue to make more of these services available (and better!) to combat that sort of insanity. The amount of online content is incomprehensibly huge and the internet is chock-full of clever folks who want to use it!
The trouble is the internet needs some level of control as it's creators forget the golden rule about giving humans a toy...we have lots of idiots. So, some laws are always going to be needed unless we want unchallenged criminal behaviour.
It seems the push is from the material owners e.g. record companies. They don't want them used without their permission. The same with image creation and recently Google removed the button to access images for download due to pressure so you have to go around it. This is why I question whether so many people can simply update their privacy policies to say whether you can have fair use or not?
There are some good articles explaining the legislation via Google but the full document is linked earlier in the thread if you want a read.
Yep, we already do all this stuff. This is just tightening the grip on existing copyright laws. But it comes with the introduction of a tax too and this is concerning as these are cash cows to politicians so I guess we have the worry they may choose to try to charge us for fair use. I can't really see that as they would be chasing billions of people for tiny sums of cash. Normally a government would have to admit they can't afford to pay for this, and the public would have them over the cost in other services to chase an ideology aimed at helping corporations anyway, but this legislation is so woolly and aimed at the companies doing the work so one concern is whether they will be expected to collect this "tax" on behalf of somehow. That pushes a lot of work onto hosting, searching companies that I wonder whether the push back would just halt it.
Yep, with VPN's you can choose the server location from what I remember. VPN's are incredibly cheap too. But I guess the question is whether part of this will demand tackling the issue of VPN's with it? There are already discussions about cracking down on the dark web in the UK and the EU has a lot of right wing politicians in power so could we end up going the way of Russia and banning them? Do the EU just get the companies to block VPN IP's?
Then what's the point of worrying? :shrug:
Positive thoughts
There's an answer to that above.
Frankly Frank (had to ;)), IF something happened where the internet were restricted or policed to the point of removing freedoms, the people wouldn't stand for it. I understand that it is an intricate part of our lives now but as someone who grew up without it, when there were 7 TV channels and stations signed off a little after midnight, I could get used to the way things were quite easily. Life was simpler and less stressful 40 years ago before all of this.
This thread relates to a thread about the internet causing more mental health issues. While it's opened up the world at our finger tips, it's also created more stress and vitriol as illustrated clearly in the comment sections of news sites and on forums. Let's put it this way... 40 years ago, a "troll" was an imaginary creature that lived under a bridge :shades:
All we can do is vote. We have no control otherwise. I'm seeing things happening in the US that have directly affected my life (such as health care etc.) and I'll be voting in November. Until then, as sucky as it is, there's nothing I can do :shrug:
Positive thoughts
What good is voting when the people who share my opinion are largely outnumbered?
MyNameIsTerry
01-10-18, 11:34
What good is voting when the people who share my opinion are largely outnumbered?
I don't think you can really gauge people's opinions because this is an obscure vote in a remote chamber we have little impact in. If it was a manifesto pledge then voters would be me directly engaged.
So it comes back more to activism than voting unless you are voting for the MEP's...which again probably won't mean anything other than you can vote for a candidate you understand doesn't share these values. The trouble is, it's a widespread population with vastly different politics so again I think lobbying your government is perhaps all we plebs can do and the big companies & powerful people can meddle in their usual ways.
It's like trying to change UN policy.
What good is voting when the people who share my opinion are largely outnumbered?
It's no different than writing in your vote or voting for the underdog in any election. It's about doing what you feel is right. I wrote my vote in the last two presidential elections here in the States knowing full well it wasn't going to make a difference with the exception of my conscious. I did what I felt to be the right thing and I feel good about that. There's nothing I can do to change the way things are except to exercise my right to vote again. If it doesn't go my way then I have no choice but to live with it.
Positive thoughts
You mean I'll have to live with memes, fanart, everything being banned?!
MyNameIsTerry
02-10-18, 02:02
You mean I'll have to live with memes, fanart, everything being banned?!
Possibly, yes. We don't know at this stage as the legislation is unclear.
But people see changes to their liberties through their lifetimes and you adapt. Not so long ago smokers were raging of not being able to pollute everyone's air so they could smoke wherever they wanted. They adapted, they had no choice.
Like I said, this is a bit of a niche area. Most people in the UK won't care about memes, fanart, mixes on YouTube, etc. Some of this is already supposed to be illegal via existing copyright laws anyway.
If "the people" can adapt to the smoking laws they can certainly adapt to this.
I think the internet has created a lot of people who have got used to complete freedom. That freedom has included the ability to harass people to the point of suicide and there have been some horrible crimes due to the internet's ability to hide people. The law is playing catch up all the time. Not so long ago people were raging about not being able to pirate music & film, which was already illegal under existing copyright laws.
Why should the internet be a place of total freedom? Real life never has been. The minute you give access to something like this you only invite crime and some very unpleasant sides of human nature that may remain hidden in real life as a broken nose often offends :whistles:
Right now you don't know what is going to happen with this one so you have to accept the uncertainty of that. You can't change it. If you wish you can try activism to apply pressure along with other.
As for voting on MEP's to get them to do anything...:roflmao: The EU will always go it's own way. It tells whole countries to bugger off (they are losing a big net payer for not taking our concerns seriously) so it's not going to listen to a small number of the public. It's too large and too remote. We can't do much other than try to change the size of the political parties across the whole EU. We don't even share common values with all these countries. What do we have in common with Poland? The struggles of the Greeks with austerity? Italy turning to the far right? You can try to shift your limited MEP seats to left wing parties but it only achieves so much if the right wing parties have the majority across the EU. The people with bigger voices are the ones that can push so activism can help to get behind them.
I think the key issue in this is what big business say is the worst of the two evils. If it turns out the cost to implement this will be far worse than putting up with what we have now will the MEP's listen to a smaller bunch of big business who pushed for this legislation? Possibly not.
Like I said, this is a bit of a niche area. Most people in the UK won't care about memes, fanart, mixes on YouTube, etc. Some of this is already supposed to be illegal via existing copyright laws anyway.
If "the people" can adapt to the smoking laws they can certainly adapt to this.
That's outrageous.
MyNameIsTerry
02-10-18, 12:31
That's outrageous.
Why is it?
Compare this to issues like the disability benefits issues and it's a non issue. Which would most people care about? The inability to create memes or the ability to eat and have heat?
Well, obviously we need both free speech and access to utilities. I don't value one over the other.
MyNameIsTerry
02-10-18, 16:43
You might disagree if you were in poverty but I understand what you mean, it's just a matter of priorities. But my point is simply that this EU issue is going to be quite remote, the reporting in the media was scarce.
We can never truly have free speech, someone will always be too much to be tolerated. I guess the question is where that line is and how politics could shift it. That's the concern here isn't it? Is it a slippery slope? Whilst we have democracy we can keep things in check but could that change? Yes, it could but I don't buy all the media doom & gloom comparing us to how the Nazis started, especially when there is far worse going on in other EU countries. It's not like our police were throwing grannies around just for voting on independence...:whistles: But the argument for a completely free internet just in case governments become more autocratic is a bit like why Americans won't give up their guns.
The same argument with things like The Snooper's Charter. They can already get that data but having it without going through legal access channels opens up the ability to start fishing if unscrupulous governments get in. The question is checks & balances and who can change them.
With this legislation they are going to be fighting big business on one side all the way. They won't want to do it. They could push back, demand money, force legislation to be revisited, etc.
But my point is simply that this EU issue is going to be quite remote, the reporting in the media was scarce.
Well, it'll have been covered up, as I said before.
https://tsubasaart.tumblr.com/post/180051281555/article-13-has-been-changed-to-the-worst
They want to ban social media now! This thing just keeps getting worse! It may be a hoax but I'm not taking any chances!
venusbluejeans
13-11-18, 09:46
https://media1.giphy.com/media/l0MYG9l7DV1fyJWHm/200w.gif?cid=3640f6095bea9d3e5436316d519ef4b4
I know! This isn't about copyright any more, it's about our freedom and our freedom alone!
Suziewuzie
13-11-18, 14:23
I literally have no idea what this thread is about.
MyNameIsTerry
13-11-18, 14:35
https://tsubasaart.tumblr.com/post/180051281555/article-13-has-been-changed-to-the-worst
They want to ban social media now! This thing just keeps getting worse! It may be a hoax but I'm not taking any chances!
Is there a source for the changes, Frank?
When that guy said Germany could be affected I did think well they could always leave the EU :roflmao:
I don't know, it'll probably turn up sooner or later!
venusbluejeans
13-11-18, 17:45
you first posted this back in June........ Nothing has happened, we still have social media and will have for a long time to come. You haven't had to leave the country or won't have to.
You are doing nothing but listening to all the scaremongering about things that we can not change...... what is the point??
Are you going to keep worrying about it indefinitely?? We can't help with your anxiety IF you can't help yourself in actually trying to stop worrying about things you can't control!
To be completely honest all I can see here is someone who has no intention in working on improving his anxiety (which is what NMP is for) BUT has taken to then sharing the scaremongering on an anxiety site!... The thing being is that there is noone that I know of on NMP who would actually take it seriously
You really couldnt live without the internet? some of us were alive even before the internet started and we are still here :)
Maybe actually start working on how to combat your anxiety? how are you going to do that?
I am trying, but I'm on a waiting list - as I previously mentioned!
Suziewuzie
13-11-18, 18:58
Can I ask what you're doing to help reduce your anxiety surrounding this? I've tried really hard to get the gist of the thread but I'm failing. But it's obviously very distressing to you & might be worth trying a new technique.
Stewing in my worry is all I can do, especially if I'm going to be affected so drastically.
Suziewuzie
13-11-18, 20:53
So you're not actually doing anything to help yourself? Well living like this can't be fun. Would you LIKE to stop worrying about it?
MyNameIsTerry
14-11-18, 02:44
you first posted this back in June........ Nothing has happened, we still have social media and will have for a long time to come. You haven't had to leave the country or won't have to.
You are doing nothing but listening to all the scaremongering about things that we can not change...... what is the point??
Are you going to keep worrying about it indefinitely?? We can't help with your anxiety IF you can't help yourself in actually trying to stop worrying about things you can't control!
To be completely honest all I can see here is someone who has no intention in working on improving his anxiety (which is what NMP is for) BUT has taken to then sharing the scaremongering on an anxiety site!... The thing being is that there is noone that I know of on NMP who would actually take it seriously
You really couldnt live without the internet? some of us were alive even before the internet started and we are still here :)
Maybe actually start working on how to combat your anxiety? how are you going to do that?
Any changes will take time and what those changes are going to be are still vague. The legislation is fact though, that can't be denied. It could take ages as they were saying the technology had to be considered. Who knows, it could get dumped back out.
Frank just needs to concentrate on the anxiety and leave any activism off here. The latter seems to be the petition, the rest seems relevant to his anxiety I would think.
So you're not actually doing anything to help yourself? Well living like this can't be fun. Would you LIKE to stop worrying about it?
Oh, obviously! But it's going to take time, isn't it? And let's be honest, time is something I don't have a lot of.
And let's be honest, time is something I don't have a lot of.
You must be a very busy man, Frank :shades:
MyNameIsTerry
14-11-18, 12:17
Oh, obviously! But it's going to take time, isn't it? And let's be honest, time is something I don't have a lot of.
What do you mean by that?
Well... I have other things to worry about on top of that! It takes a lot of my resources.
Well... I have other things to worry about on top of that! It takes a lot of my resources.
But the point is that whilst treatment won't change the facts and reality, it will alter the way you currently react to these fears. You will view all this in a more rational and less distorted way when your panic and fear have been alleviated.
Well, I mean, if you say so...
Well, I mean, if you say so...
What do you mean, Frank? I'm trying to help, not playing games.
Suziewuzie
14-11-18, 19:48
Oh, obviously! But it's going to take time, isn't it? And let's be honest, time is something I don't have a lot of.
But if you really WANT to get better - and I'm sure that you do - you need to make the time mate! It's fine if you're not in a place yet where you want to commit to getting better, I don't think anybody on here would judge you for that, but I think there's little that anyone on here can do or say to help if that's the case.
What do you mean, Frank? I'm trying to help, not playing games.
But the thing is, I don't think any of this is distorted at all.
venusbluejeans
14-11-18, 20:59
So if you don't think any of it is distorted and you think your worry is warranted then what are you trying to acheive with this post? We obviously can't help with your anxiety about this so what do you want us to do?
Help me try to stop it from happening, of course!
venusbluejeans
15-11-18, 00:28
So you don't want anyone to help your anxiety with this.... you just want to 'recruit' people into helping you. This is an anxiety site not a politics one....
When you look at this, it's really no different than any of the HA threads where the poster is "convinced" they have xyz disease. Nothing said, regardless of facts and reality helps.
Now, that said, the events taking place in the world certainly are troubling and real but its been that way since I can remember and we don't have control over it. Other than Trump becoming president, none of those fears has happened ~lol~ Again, it's much like the fear of getting cancer (which can happen) and again, other than eating well, not smoking etc., we have no control over it.
Lack of control, IMO, is the crux of the issue and no amount of reassurance will quell that fear. Acceptance is difficult, anxiety or not. Sometimes its best to leave well enough alone and move on to those that can accept it.
Positive thoughts
MyNameIsTerry
15-11-18, 01:43
Well... I have other things to worry about on top of that! It takes a lot of my resources.
You will find they are all linked. Certainly the ones I've seen you raise. They are all overreactions that clearly cause you anxiety.
---------- Post added at 01:43 ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 ----------
But the point is that whilst treatment won't change the facts and reality, it will alter the way you currently react to these fears. You will view all this in a more rational and less distorted way when your panic and fear have been alleviated.
Well, I mean, if you say so...
But the thing is, I don't think any of this is distorted at all.
Help me try to stop it from happening, of course!
Some people believe they are crusading for justice. Stopping the world imploding.
But do they find it affects their mental health to the point of anxiety/panic? Do these people, and their over emotional rhetoric which is very popular at the moment, cause anxiety to those susceptible to these types of worries? They won't care if they do as they just want a result, just like the media just want the clicks.
Recently you raised a thread about Brazil electing a fascist. Is it because the word "fascist" was in there or because the media are currently making a big issue out of it? Because Brazil isn't exactly a great place to live (not if you are a regular Joe anyway) and there are countries killing their own citizens for heinous reasons yet they are democracies.
You have accessed help so you obviously recognise there is a problem that needs resolving and that problem is your mental health as you know a therapist isn't going to help you with any campaigning.
If you don't think it is distorted at all, why ask for the help?
Thinking again there is nothing wrong with the petition, I've added a few on here too, but more as a Misc thing. Doing it because you are scared is a different matter and obviously we have to be mindful of how we respond as to not feed your anxiety further.
I hadn't ever stopped to think about it that way.... please, give me time while I think this over very carefully.
I'm deeply sorry. I hadn't realised that I'd been trying to exploit people who panic about these things like I do to join my cause. That was selfish of me. It's not as if we alone could solve the world's problems anyway. :emot-fail: I'm going to drop this subject, because there's nothing else I can do with it at the moment, and everything else is beyond me. I'll put my focus on to REAL worries, like that pain I've got in my lower back.
MyNameIsTerry
16-11-18, 02:24
I'm deeply sorry. I hadn't realised that I'd been trying to exploit people who panic about these things like I do to join my cause. That was selfish of me. It's not as if we alone could solve the world's problems anyway. :emot-fail: I'm going to drop this subject, because there's nothing else I can do with it at the moment, and everything else is beyond me. I'll put my focus on to REAL worries, like that pain I've got in my lower back.
There is no reason why you can't talk about any subject that is causing you anxiety, Frank.
I don't believe that you have been exploiting anyone on here.
Well if I can't do much to solve it, what's the point? It's like you said.
MyNameIsTerry
16-11-18, 14:24
Well if I can't do much to solve it, what's the point? It's like you said.
But we are saying you can work to resolve how it makes you feel.
And I appreciate that. Most times it helps.
...but it's clearly getting worse. Twitch have banned all music from livestreams!
https://www.twitch.tv/p/legal/community-guidelines/music
This is clearly Article 13's influence. This is a catastrophe! It's only going to make corporations stronger still - as if they aren't powerful enough already!
"It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine"
R.E.M.
:D
Positive thoughts
I mean... say what you will, but this idea of a dystopian society genuinely frightens me.
I mean... say what you will, but this idea of a dystopian society genuinely frightens me.
I know this is a genuine fear for you and I'm sorry it causes you such distress. As many have said, it's totally out of your control and the reality is, we'll all be dust before something like that happens. The best way to address it is to seek professional help to address your fears because nothing said here and no amount of reassurance will quell this fear :shrug:
Good luck and as always...
Positive thoughts
MyNameIsTerry
21-11-18, 02:19
That could just be a company pre-empting legislative changes. Sometimes companies go steaming in and go way over the top and have to adjust later when their customers start bashing them about it.
I've seen that happen a fair few times in my old career.
If no one even knows what that legislation means how can they know? They are most likely stopping all of it on the off chance it breaks a rule. Others do exactly this when they remove content that doesn't even break any rules, Facebook being one of them.
http://thebucca2.tumblr.com/post/180456876510
So here's an update...
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190118/11062441423/eu-cancels-final-negotiations-eu-copyright-directive-as-it-becomes-clear-there-isnt-enough-support.shtml
And I thought I could relax... but no, some guys on Twitch brought it up. If it's come back, I haven't heard about it, but now the worry's coming back...
MyNameIsTerry
12-02-19, 14:36
So here's an update...
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190118/11062441423/eu-cancels-final-negotiations-eu-copyright-directive-as-it-becomes-clear-there-isnt-enough-support.shtml
And I thought I could relax... but no, some guys on Twitch brought it up. If it's come back, I haven't heard about it, but now the worry's coming back...
Frank, have you misread it? It's blocked for now as the revised proposal was seen as worse than the initial by some countries. They will have to revive it via a new schedule and vote again so it's effectively a piece of failed legislation that never came to pass at the moment.
That's good news. There is more time to keep kicking them. And some countries citied users rights in this so it opens the possibility that they are listening to their people?
No... it's back with a vengeance.
https://juliareda.eu/2019/02/eu-copyright-final-text/
I was born before the internet, youtube and memes, and streaming music, know how I survived, I called friends on my corded landline phone, I played video games, I wrote letters to my friends put a stamp on it mailed it waited for a reply for weeks, read, went over to friends houses, I gathered from your first post they want to stop people from stealing. using, downloading other peoples work, images etc, without that person's permission.
I was born before the internet, youtube and memes, and streaming music, know how I survived, I called friends on my corded landline phone, I played video games, I wrote letters to my friends put a stamp on it mailed it waited for a reply for weeks, read, went over to friends houses, I gathered from your first post they want to stop people from stealing. using, downloading other peoples work, images etc, without that person's permission.
That's right! But the way they're going about it is draconian!
MyNameIsTerry
14-02-19, 14:30
No... it's back with a vengeance.
https://juliareda.eu/2019/02/eu-copyright-final-text/
Yes, but your previous link said it had been halted by several countries stating the revisions were a step too far into individuals rights.
It's dead legislation. They have to decide whether to revise it further but they obviously will need to back peddle from this revision.
---------- Post added at 14:30 ---------- Previous post was at 14:27 ----------
I was born before the internet, youtube and memes, and streaming music, know how I survived, I called friends on my corded landline phone, I played video games, I wrote letters to my friends put a stamp on it mailed it waited for a reply for weeks, read, went over to friends houses, I gathered from your first post they want to stop people from stealing. using, downloading other peoples work, images etc, without that person's permission.
Me too.
There are some additional concerns with this legislation that could affect a lot of us, even on this forum. There is some very woolly wording around what constitutes acceptable posting of text from other sites (media wrangled an exemption) so I could be posting an excerpt from a medical site on NMP and Nic has to stop it or potentially face copyright legal action and I might face it and a link tax too. But I suspect sites may just include an anti-copyright clause allowing acceptable levels of their sites to be copied which would render the whole thing worthless overnight. :winks:
Another potential concern might be smaller sites. If you look at the EU GDPR change we are finding we can't access sites in the US anymore because your side haven't made a GDPR update and just block us out. The US host basically sees an EU server and stops us accessing the site (I assume). So, without a VPN, and potentially choosing a location outside of the EU for that VPN, we can't get around that.
Yes, but your previous link said it had been halted by several countries stating the revisions were a step too far into individuals rights.
It's dead legislation. They have to decide whether to revise it further but they obviously will need to back peddle from this revision.
It's not dead at all. Germany caved in to France on the issue, and they've agreed to go along with it.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190204/09090341521/article-13-is-back-germany-caves-to-france-as-eu-pushes-forward-ruining-internet.shtml
MyNameIsTerry
14-02-19, 17:20
Ok, you posted a link to an older article. This new one isn't certain as it's reporting whispers and the media often use "a source says" which can mean anyone rather than someone who would really know. Without any corroboration it will mean awaiting the vote.
Is it a qualified majority vote? Whilst Germany may have caved in what about Poland, The Netherlands and Italy? Do the pro lobby only need one more?
I wonder if France will start rioting again? Macron is the big businessman's best buddy.
The pro lobby hardly needs one more, they already had a majority last time.
MyNameIsTerry
15-02-19, 03:10
It's odd that the pro lobby have turned against it yet politicians are pushing on with a piece of legislation no one even wants any more. :shrugs: That's a recipe for disaster and later wrangling over changes.
A typical sledgehammer to crack a nut. :doh:
There's going to be rioting over this, I guarantee it.
Guys, this final text is about as good as it's going to get. And that's not good enough.
(But better than nothing...)
MyNameIsTerry
20-02-19, 02:08
(But better than nothing...)
I think Frank is concerned about the revision. The articles said rather than improving it based on people's concerns it actually went even more strict and that's why Germany (and several other countries) turned it down when they had been in favour before.
The new revision has caused the original lobby, the media firms, to walk away because it had a clause added in along the lines of "unless you want to opt out" which took controls away from them. I would have thought that would please the opposition as it's better than nothing so it's confusing why some countries are saying it's gone too strict when that suggests the opposite. Without reading the text, it's hard to say. So much politics, they could be lying to appease the media firms to get that taken out?
If we don't stop them, this site could be among the many taken down.
MyNameIsTerry
21-02-19, 01:54
If we don't stop them, this site could be among the many taken down.
I disagree with that. Nic may have to ensure anything quoted material is inline with the new regulation, and considering the billions upon billions of retrospective breaches I would imagine it won't affect anything pre-regulation change, but she would have to update the site to reflect her agreement on us sharing information from her site and to it. From it she could simply state, providing no rule is created to prevent it, "I don't care, use what you want" and that would change nothing.
The whole point of this law is to allow the EU and governments to control what people see. They don't actually really care about the economic effect.
WiredIncorrectly
05-03-19, 11:17
Guys, this is an emergency! The fate of the free world is at stake! The corporatists are desperate and Article 13 can give them the opportunity to regain the upper hand. You should know that a law like this could mark the beginning of a totalitarian future, because it is impossible to predict how the big companies will abuse it! As you can imagine, I'm terrified. If this goes through I'll have to leave the country, and I can't take that! Please... tell me there's a good side in all this...?
Provided the UK leaves the EU it will not affect the UK. But, the UK wants to control it anyway so that's not really good news.
WiredIncorrectly
05-03-19, 12:02
The whole point of this law is to allow the EU and governments to control what people see. They don't actually really care about the economic effect.
Censorship of the Internet is required for businesses to operate lawfully and ethically. A lot of the world is dependent on it for communication, and business. So it has to be done.
But, I do not agree with it one bit. The state of the Internet today is far removed from the original definition by Tim Berners-Lee's. Not so long back Facebook redefined the "open web" as to shadow Tim Berners-Lee's definition of the "open web" and redefine it.
The Internet is now a place for commerce, click bait, false/bias news, censorship, spying, intentional backdoors left in software and everything else nasty.
It's affected political outcomes that have destroyed democratic values. Look at Facebook. After all their scandals and flaws (and even today they have another one relating to 2FA and data harvesting) they still exist, and they still thrive. There's only 2 reasons for that:
1. Facebook is funded by agencies that work with the Government (I need mention no names)
2. People give Facebook the power they have by continuing to invest and support the platform
But in either case that doesn't negate the fact the platform is bad. The Internet has become a place for propaganda and indoctrination by all sorts of cults, political parties, conspiracy theorists, psdueoskeptics etc.
People in general are becoming more aware of the bad actors on the Internet that are controlling it. But, it's the users that put them there and keep them there, so who is really to blame? Do you know how easy it would be to kill Facebook? If the world deletes their account by the morning they'll be hanging out to dry. The problem is people won't do it. They're invested in it for whatever reason be it business, personal etc.
The battle is lost when you can't even trust the operating system or software you're using. Most of society will just nod in agreement and do nothing about.
They're people, they're just people... :weep: I don't want to lose my friends, I really don't.
MyNameIsTerry
09-03-19, 02:00
Frank, why would you lose your friends?
Well, if I won't be able to share my work online, nobody will know me! Why.... without anywhere to share my work to the world, I've got nothing... I wouldn't want to carry on. :weep:
Midnight-mouse
09-03-19, 18:38
Well, if I won't be able to share my work online, nobody will know me! Why.... without anywhere to share my work to the world, I've got nothing... I wouldn't want to carry on. :weep:
I have been reading about this today, what makes you think that you wouldn’t be able to share your works? I’m also a creator and am interested in your thoughts on this :)
Positive vibes,
Mouse
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fan art, fan literature. Work that shows I'm a fan of something.
MyNameIsTerry
10-03-19, 17:29
You still could but wouldn't it mean avoiding imagery already owned by someone else? I realise that's a big backward step in this particulr market but I'm wondering just how big you are and whether you can work around it?
I do think you need to look at your thought processes on this though, Frank. You are not defined solely by one thing in your life, there are many parts to you.
Maybe you want to be big & successful but you know most don't make it. Good luck to you and so you should aim for the stars if that's what you want but please try to remember everyone else finds other ways to carry on and makes the best of what life deals them.
Yes... but without the internet, that's going to be all the harder.
MyNameIsTerry
14-03-19, 01:49
What I was wondering is whether even if this came in you and others could reduce it to the point of being largely worthless by a large collective of image sharers who allow full use of their images to create memes? They can't stop you allowing others to use your images from what I saw of the original draft legislation (I haven't read the two updates) but it left a hole allowing for the creator to waive their copyright just as sites now add disclaimers about fair use.
You could all collaborate a large library online and the EU couldn't do anything about it.
There are also VPN's that allow for crossing boundaries for those who want to look outside the EU.
I do have a VPN, but a) They won't protect us from the economic effects, and b) What's stopping the EU from banning VPNs as well?
MyNameIsTerry
15-03-19, 02:50
Hmm,
a) maybe not as there will be a short term hit but I guess it means the industry changes how it operates so it recovers?
b) who knows, the EU could turn into anything as it marches more towards federalisation. But VPN's are used heavily by business so they would have a major input...not considering the EU giving them special dispensations as they have done for the media outlets in this current legislation.
My God, it's over.
https://t.co/h3qi992ZBF
My God, it's over.
https://t.co/h3qi992ZBF
I will have a detailed read of this later.
Take your time, it's much too late anyway.
I don't agree. Words in a document is one thing, enforcing it in practice another :lac:
They'll do it, you know. Upload filters, everything. It's over.
Well, isn't anyone going to say anything?
Is there anyone on this stupid island that will listen to what I'm saying!?
Frank, what do you want people to say?
I hate the state of the world right now, I'm worried, but I'd also rather not live my life in a state of existential dread. As such, I try to assume the worst won't happen and that I'll cope when it does.
I don't think getting hostile with a bunch of internet strangers is going to help you any, though.
You know what hurts most? This is what's going to get UKIP, the BNP, and the fascist vote into the European Parliament this May!
Is there anyone on this stupid island that will listen to what I'm saying!?
This is an anxiety website with, at any given time, several hundred active posting members. I think we're all concerned about the state of our world today but most do the best they can under their own circumstances. As I've stated before, there's not much we can do about these types of things anyway. I think I can safely say you're the only one who is fixated on this one aspect as thus far, no one shares the level of concern you do. It's really no different than some of the HA threads where a freckle is cancer and gets the proverbial eye roll.
If you feel this strongly, why not find a political group that feels the same and do some real life activism to make people who care about this aware?
Positive thoughts
If you feel this strongly, why not find a political group that feels the same and do some real life activism to make people who care about this aware?
Positive thoughts
I agree. Try and do something about it in the real world as moaning on here will achieve nothing, Frank. I'm sure there are online SM groups you could join too.
MyNameIsTerry
28-03-19, 01:52
I agree. Try and do something about it in the real world as moaning on here will achieve nothing, Frank. I'm sure there are online SM groups you could join too.
I think I would be wary about this. We wouldn't advocate a HAer worrying over cancer joining a group to work on awareness of cancer because we know it would only feed their obsessiveness further.
Frank obviously has issies with catastrophizing and his themes are more towards social issues so he needs to work on his perceptions and the usual thoughts stuff.
EDIT: I'm not saying there couldn't be merits to it but I think at the minimum he would need to do both as a political group won't give a toss about the mental anguish it causes him.
MyNameIsTerry
28-03-19, 01:57
You know what hurts most? This is what's going to get UKIP, the BNP, and the fascist vote into the European Parliament this May!
Why would it? You equate the far right with control but forget the far left advocate the same.
UKIP are dead in the water and they have no power. They are not equivalent to the likes of the AfD or the far right parties of Austria, Italy, etc.
Why would the far right be connected to the entertainment industry wanting greater copyright controls? The entertainment industry aren't so much known for their far right connections.
If you want consider the further right of conservativism it wouldn't';t be this. You are equating internet control with this but that's a very different story and if anything, the far right love the internet as they've never had it so good babbling online in their forums about stuff they would get arrested saying on the street.
And the BNP are dead. Even at their height they couldn't get any power.
You need to be wary of news media flogging lines like this, they love to paint everything as the end of times. The BNP can't even get local seats so how are they going to get something bigger?
UKIP aren't, or weren't but could be now, in the same group as the far right parties across the EU. UKIP became popular largely due to be the only party giving an anti-EU voice. BNP types moved over to them but so did Labour & Tory voters as has been proved by later elections where UKIP have bombed as traditional anti-EU voters returned to their original parties. UKIP have now pushed onto being an anti Islam party...and this will keep them where they are. That's getting closer top BNP and despite all the stuff about immigration the BNP never gained much traction. Lets remember the BNP are the racist party and anyone with issue with immigration control isn't just going to float over to the skinhead violent party with their history.
If you want consider the further right of conservativism it wouldn't';t be this. You are equating internet control with this but that's a very different story and if anything, the far right love the internet as they've never had it so good babbling online in their forums about stuff they would get arrested saying on the street.
That's exactly my point! A vote for them in protest of this would give them the voice they've been after for who knows how long.
I think I would be wary about this. We wouldn't advocate a HAer worrying over cancer joining a group to work on awareness of cancer because we know it would only feed their obsessiveness further.
Frank obviously has issies with catastrophizing and his themes are more towards social issues so he needs to work on his perceptions and the usual thoughts stuff.
EDIT: I'm not saying there couldn't be merits to it but I think at the minimum he would need to do both as a political group won't give a toss about the mental anguish it causes him.
Frank doesn't like talking about himself much and where he's "at" in life so it's hard to gauge how exposure to his worries and fears in the "real" world would affect him. But I sense his exasperation that others don't share his fears - when I'm fairly sure plenty do - just not on NMP.
I've constantly mentioned therapy and meds (which Frank said he takes) but a level of participation in real life is necessary to crack out of one's own head and to gradually break down the years of avoidance and inhibition I believe is keeping him there. There is no doubt Frank has an anxiety disorder which he projects on the world around him, and as you say, on catastrophising.
Joining a political party and waving banners in protest wasn't what I was advising Frank to do. Although he is always free to do so if he feels like it :shades:
You're right, I do need to get out more. And in fact, that's what I'm hoping to do.
It's been a week, and I'm starting to wonder - was there something I could have done to stop this disaster? I even thought of taking the blame for it, but I know even they wouldn't have listened to me. They betrayed me, they betrayed us all!
It's been a week, and I'm starting to wonder - was there something I could have done to stop this disaster? I even thought of taking the blame for it, but I know even they wouldn't have listened to me. They betrayed me, they betrayed us all!
There is nothing any of us can do to avert or change current situation, Frank. And the blame-game is your anxiety looking for ways to chip away at your sanity. Don't let it :lac:
MyNameIsTerry
04-04-19, 02:12
KK is right. Are you a world leader? If not, how could you influence it either way?
You can ad your voice and do things to help but beyond being someone like Bezos or Zuckerberg they don't care about the rest of us.
I doubt they would've listened to Bezos or Zuckerberg either!
Pea Tear Griffin
04-04-19, 15:23
Get yourself a good VPN it will make you feel better :)
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