View Full Version : Useless GP - Getting my own meds?
hi,
I've been living with anxiety, phobias and what not for the past 12 years, now for the first time ever I decided to go to a GP to see what can be done about it because I'm loosing my energy on a daily basis, always exhausted and obviously anxious all day. The thing is this GP here is pretty much useless in my opinion, I went there and told him all my problems and he prescribed me propranolol.
I hardly have any panic attacks I'm more anxious and having constant "crazy" and worrying thoughts. I've got extreme social phobia, immense fear of dying/death, always imagining the worst possible diseases that I have and worrying constantly about everything. My brother has the exact same stuff as I do, however he is not living in the UK so we don't share the same GP etc...his doctor back home prescribed him cipralex and he is totally happy with it for the last couple of years.
So I went to the GP and asked him to prescribe me cipralex instead of propranolol, since I read on the internet that propranolol is mainly to calm down the heartbeat in panic attacks etc..since I hardly have panic attacks (once a week maybe) I don't need stuff like that but more stuff against anxiety. My GP told me basically that this stuff will work for my anxiety too and basically "if I don't like it I can just go to another GP" (his words).
The problem is that there are only two GP's in my area that I can register with, so one sucks and the other one has a waiting list till september (ridiculous!).
Now since I've been taking these propranolol tablets I've not felt any different, I noticed my heart wasnt racing at one point where it normally would have but apart from that its not doing anything, my thoughts are still making me crazy and I still can't leave the house without almost collapsing.
Well here is the thing, my brother has like a 6 months package of cipralex and he can get more if needed (GP back home is a good old friend of the family). So my brother is sending me some Cipralex tablets to the UK, now I'm not sure how to proceed. Should I just stop taking propranolol (have been taken them only since 3 days) or do I need to talk this through with my GP first? The thing is obviously that my GP sucks, his attitude towards me and my anxiety, and especially since I just moved here, it was my first visit ever and basically as I had been told to go to another GP if I'm not happy with his decision (in a rather nasty voice), I rather just stay away from that w**ker and get cipralex through my brothers (and my ex) GP.
My brother said I should take 5mg at first and after couple of weeks increase it to 10mg (half a tablet). Thats how he did it. Now I know I normally should discuss things like that with a GP but he is just refusing everything I say or do and I just don't wanna get back there anymore, especially if I tell him I get the medication sent from my brothers GP he probably will even refuse to tell me anything usefull.
I'm sorry for this long post, just want to make sure people see my reason why I would hate to go back to the GP and also I just wanted to get this all of my chest finally!!
This post has been automatically edited by the NMP post filter
I've been on Cipralex for 2 years now and can't fault your brothers advice re dosage I can't however give any advice re stopping your other med.
Phill :shades:
Hiya
Welcome to NMP.
I just wanted to say that everyone on here will understand what an awful time you are going through. There are people on here that will have one or two of your symptoms and there are people on here that will think they could have written that post themselves as they are going through exactly the same.
But I just wanted to say it's never a good idea to self prescribe. I know they are brilliant for your brother but we all react and have different effects from medication. I know your GP isn't very good but you really need the support of a healthcare professional to support you when starting medication.
Could you not travel a bit further to find a GP or speak to the one that has a waiting list till September and explain your circumstances. If not ask your GP to refer you to your local mental health team and i'm sure they can offer advice regarding medication.
I hope you get the help and support you need.
Lolly X
thanks lolly for your reply.
Well I tried calling other GP's that were near me, however they refused to let me sign up with them since I don't live in their designated area (street/house number), they just refered me to the NHS to get a list of GP's that will serve my area and as I said those are the only two. I did speak to the lady about the waiting list, saying I've got extreme anxiety and wanted to seek help asap as its getting worse but she just said "sorry nothing I can do".
I just moved to london, before I lived up north and actually did see a mental heatlh team called MIND, after speaking with them for about 2 hours telling them that I'm lightheaded, choke on my food at times cause I'm too scared to swallow, hardly leave the house because I'm scared etc..all she said was I should eat healthy, as that helps a lot of people. That was it, as soon as she said that I thought to myself why the f did I just waste two hours of my life, giving my life story to a stranger just to be told to eat healthy. As I asked about mediciation, she said it's best to talk with my GP about it. Great.
So as you can see my options are very limited, all I can do is go back to that GP that prescribed me propranolol, however his attitude is nasty and he didn't even let me finish my sentences and gave me propranolol.
I was about to tell him how I feel, I went there, sat down and said, sometimes I can't breathe properly, just to start the conversation and he already typed on his computer n printed out the prescription, I went ahead and said I'm very anxious and hate to go outside the house, as I'm self employed working from home (due to my anxiety) there is hardly any need to anyways. But he just looked de-interested and said I should take these for 2 weeks and come back.
I said my brother takes cipralex and he is happy with it, is there a chance he could give me that instead of the propranolol, at that point I had no idea what propranolol was. All he said then was , "you should not listen to other people" and I said well its my brother and he has exactly the same stuff I do.
So I don't understand why cipralex (or any other meds apart from propranolol) would be a bad idea for me, since I didn't even get a check up (pyshical), how can he know what's good for me or not after not even listing to me and then as I contacted him later that day after researching the medication and saw that people say its just to slow down the heartbeat etc.. but also read that it's not helpfull for thoughts and social anxiety, only if you would have a public speech, so It might take away the symptoms with mild social anxiety. I said I resaerched the medication and that I wasn't sure if thats exactly what I was looking for, since panic attacks only appear once a week maybe, other then that I need stuff to calm down my thoughts, he repsonded just like that, if I'm not happy with it I should look for another GP. I mean come on, he could have responded differently, maybe saying he thinks they will be good for me and if not we try something else, but a nasty uncalled for response like that just pi**ed me off. So in my opinion pretty useless GP. Therefor I rather take my brothers medication, I'm a healthy person (except for imaginary brain tumors, strokes and heart attacks) :D , I'm 23 yrs old and as they seem to work for my brother they might work for me too. If I don't see any effect I can also just stop taking them, right? If I have no other chance for a good GP or other medication, what else Im supposed to do? Maybe I fly back to Germany to visit my old GP there and get the meds of him directly, other than that I'm just sick of this anxiety, havent done anything about it for the past 12 years, and if I can't get any good help anywhere else, I just have to help myself!
Hi Crackdown and a big welcome to the site.:yesyes:
What a shame you have a doctor who seems unsympathetic however all is not lost as he has to adhere to the NICE guidlines when treating you on this issue. Obviously he has felt prescribing you a beta blocker was the right thing in his opinion and they do work for many people in calming the flutterings etc of the heart.
However you feel you have not been treated sympathetically and are not happy with the outcome and I tend to agree with you. I would go back and tell him you are not happy and ask to discuss possible alternatives, not just medication but the possibility of cognitive behavourial therapy too. This is your right as an NHS patient. It is not acceptable to be fobbed off nor passed to another doctor - all options should be able to be at least discussed.
If he will not meet you half way then there are avenues you can go down - to do this you will need to know the relevent department to contact (sorry I don't know this but I'm sure someone will post soon who does - if not then start a thread about who you report unsatisfactory treatment to).
Meanwhile hun I honestly would not start the other tablets - whilst they may indeed help you it really is most unwise to self medicate.
Love Piglet :flowers:
Alabasterlyn
31-07-07, 14:00
I'm sorry you are having such a hard time finding a good Dr and getting the right meds. If I were you I think I would put my name on the waiting list for the other GP's surgery. Okay you won't get onto their books till September, but it's nearly August and if you have the chance to get a more empathic GP then I would think that is a good way to go.
There are unfortately a lot of GP's out there that do no understand anxiety disorders. I don't think when they train to be GP's that they actually spend much time learning about this kind of thing. That's why a GP that acknowledges they don't know enough about anxiety disorders refers patients to a psychiatrist as they deal purely in mental health issues and are much better equipped to evaluate you and prescribe the right medication for you.
I would agree with the others that self medicating is not a good idea though. These meds may work fine with your brother but everyone is different and your reaction to them could be completely different to his. Also it's always much better if you have a good GP or psychiatrist that you can keep in contact with to give you ongoing care.
Hi, :hugs:
I really feel for you, I've been very lucky with the GP's in my area and they are very aware of mental health issues and very understanding. It's frustrating that GP's behave in this way and I hear the same story so many times. Like the others said there are ways you can complain about your treatment, I seem to remember seeing a leaflet about it in my psych's waiting room. I'll try and spot it next time I'm there.
Like the others have said, I would get on the waiting list for the other GP. At least you will get to see him eventually.
Why not give the tablets a go and see if they help, if not, go back, say that they are not helping and you want to try something different. I would also recomend asking / demanding that you are refered to your local mental health services as they will have a better understanding and will be able to offer you the best treatment options.
Medication is not the only option, it can have very nasty side effects and each person usually reacts very differently to them. Taking an anti-depressant is not something to enter into lightly. They are not instant acting and can have very unpleasant side effects at first.
In the mean time have a read through this site there's some very useful information and techniques that can help a lot. There are some online CBT courses you can do that could be very helpful. Try searching through some of the posts and see what you can find.
Jim :hugs:
hello everybody,
thanks for the support and kind words. I've managed to get an appointment with a psychiatrist on Friday! I was wondering if anybody could tell me if psychiatrists in the UK are also able to prescribe medication or if all they do is "just" talk to me?? If I go there and tell them my concern about seeing the GP as well as the propranolol, will the psychiatrist be able to prescribe me medication too?
If thats the case, maybe I don't need to go back to the GP but rather get new meds through the psychiatrist. That would be great especially as I imagine a Psychiatrist has more knowledge about anxiety then the GP (at least my GP) and could give me something more suitable for my specific anxiety/phobias...
Alabasterlyn
31-07-07, 16:29
Hi
I was actually referred to one for just that reason as they knew more about medication than my GP.
Hope all goes well for you :hugs:
Lolly X
Same thing with me, my GP referred me to a psychiatrist and I was able to talk about all the problems I was having and he prescribed a medication that my own GP had never even heard of. You may also be able to get referred for other help like anxiety management courses or CBT through the psychiatrist too. Good Luck :)
now I'm confused, it said "In-House Services: Psychotherapy", I remember hearing psychiatrists somewhere in the conversation, but now I read psychotherapy could be done by a mental health worker or trained nurse rathern than a proper psychiatrists? and they would not be able to prescribe drugs then would they? Does psychotherapy normally mean its going to be done by a psychiatrist? Sorry, my english is still a bit weak lol...
A psychotherapist is different to a psychiatrist. I'm not sure that a psychotherapist can prescribe meds? (Correct me if I'm wrong)
Where are you seeing this? Is this on a letter or something? It may be that that is just the name of the team that you are seeing as psychotherapy covers a whole range of things. I guess a psychiatrist could offer psychotherapy, if that makes sense? Generally if you are seeing a person with the title 'Dr' they are a psychiatrist.
However, I would go along and see them anyway. Tell them everything about your problems and also how you feel about your GP. Basically what you've said here and they will make an informed choice as to how to go forward. If needed they will get you to see a psychiatrist.
What happened in my case was I was refered to my local mental health team I saw a psychiatrist who writes to my doctor and tells him what to prescribe. I did see an emergency psychiatrist once and he wrote a prescription out for me there and then so they can prescribe directly but they usually prefer that your GP deals with the scripts.
Jim :hugs:
yes I read it on a leaflet. They said I would see a psychiatrist in the same building as the GP surgery so I'm not quite sure what to expect. To be honest I don't want to sit down with a stranger and tell her about all my problems again just to be told to "eat healthy" as some local mental health worker suggested. Also I'm just in the belive that this type of therapy won't help me anyways, I mean whats the point talking about my childhood and what not, I know more or less know where my anxiety comes from, even if she discovers new problems this won't help me get over my messed up thoughts, feeling dizzy and all other 1000000000 symptoms and problems I have. I need a fix now, I can't take it anymore as I'm getting more and more depressed, agressive and just simply exhausted. Thats why I'm all for medication. I will go there on friday and will tell her that I'm taking cipralex (which should arrive tomorrow/thursday) instead of propranolol and see what she is going to say or maybe I wait with taking cipralex until after the therapy on friday.
Ok, I think you need to slow down a bit and not rush into anything.
There is no quick fix for anxiety I'm afraid. It's a long and slow process to recover from it.
It sounds to me like you have ordered some Cipralex (generically: escitalopram) perhaps online? I would say this is a very bad idea. Firstly taking these sort of drugs without the support of a health professional could be life threatening. I was put on prozac first and had an alergic reaction and completely flipped out from it. Also one of the initial side effects are suicidal feelings, I certainly wouldn't want to hear that you're going through a complete nightmare without any support. Secondly ordering drugs online is a risky business, most are manufactured in foreign countries where the standards of quality of the chemicals are little or none. So you could end up with a load of tablets that have nothing like you expected in them and been made in some back yard chemistry lab in India. Thirdly they are going to take a MINIMUM of 2 weeks before you feel any positive effect and probably more like a couple of months.
Please, please, please wait until you've seen this psych before you start rushing into anything.
Whoever you see is going to want to know your history as that is an important part of making a diagnosis. It is difficult to go back over all that, especially if it involves a lot of upsetting stuff. If you search under my first few threads you can read mine and it's not pleasant.
The best proven technique for attacking anxiety is a 2 prong approach; closely monitored meds and some sort of therapy.
There are 2 general techniques when it comes to therapy.
Firstly there is counselling, this is a 'Talking' therapy where you will talk in detail about your past, the present and the emotions that go with all that. It can help greatly to understand why you feel the way you do and you will know yourself better.
However for me, it brought up a lot of difficult memories which are best left forgotten. So I understand your reluctance to go down this route.
Then there is 'Cognitive' based therapy, there are many different types the most common one you will hear about is CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy). This isn't even interested in the past it totally focuses on the here and now and teaches you skills that will allow you to change your way of thinking and deal with the anxiety moment by moment.
Please be careful and don't do anything stupid.
If there is any drug that helps instantly it's a benzodiazapine like diazepam, they work a treat but are incredibly addictive and lead to a lot of problems if you use them for any length of time, so I would try to avoid those if you can. But in an emergency they can be a life saver.
Jim:hugs:
when I meant quick fix, I meant more like a medication which takes couple of weeks to be effective rather then a therapy which can take several years.
Also about side effects, I mean honestly, the doctor prescribed propranolol, without checking me first, if I would have had an allergic reaction to it, it would be the same as if I take medication on my own and have one, either way I will rush to the hospital or GP.
I do understand there there are risks, but even if he prescribes me another drug, I will only know how I react to it once I took it, the GP can't tell before hand how I will react, especially if he doesnt even do checkups, bloodtests etc and knows me for 5 minutes only. I could have had a allergic reaction to propranolo, so its a risk either way...I mean Im a healthy guy, apart from my anxiety, so yea a GP doesnt prescribe propranolol if I would have low blood pressure already, but as it happend with you, an allergic reaction can't be predicted by the GP unless you get things such as bloodtests or whatnot done. Even then I'm not sure if it can be predictaed.
You probably got the prozac from your GP as well. What I'm saying is, if its prescribed through the GP or not, I can only tell how I will react once I take it and even a GP could prescribe mediciation which causes an allergic reaction as in your case, so obviously if I take cipralex and have an allergic reaction I would do the same stuff as if it was prescribed from the GP, as in look for help or go to a hospital. If I get side effects, from what I read throughout the forum, they only last for a bit, headaches and nausea, dizziness etc...symptoms that can even occur by taking aspirin.
As you can see Im in a defensive mood, because I can't see harm done by taking some tablets that are prescribed to thousand of anxiety patients worldwide. If the GP prescribes the tablets or not, I would react to them the same way. I mean from talking to me the other day for 5 minutes, how could he see whats good for me or not anyways? If I will go through a complete nightmare at first by taking those tablets, either way I'm on my own if my GP is a useless f*ck (pardon my french).
And lastly, as mentioned before, I will get these tablets from my Brother in Germany, as he uses them himself as he got the exact same problems as I do. He has a 6 month supply which he can share, since his GP (used to be my GP as well) is a family friend he can easily get a new package.
EDIT: sorry I just read it all over again, and it sounds kinda rude, that wasnt my intention. I was just trying to get my point across so I might come off a bit rude. Sorry again. I'm sitting at home day and night feeling lightheaded, tired, anxious and what not, I just moved to london and instead of enjoying the big life, I leaved in North england before and was feeling like that for the last 3 years aswell, I just wanted things to change once I move but every move I did turned out to be useless (eat healthy bullsh*t), I'm scared to leave the house. its just getting too much for me to handle, therefor the "quick fix" solution. And having a useless GP, just makes matters worse. My family is coming to visit me in 2 weeks, I can't be in a mood like i'm now, thats another reason for the quick, desperate fix. I rather give cipralex a shot then try to argue with my GP which is a waste of breath.
Then there is 'Cognitive' based therapy, there are many different types the most common one you will hear about is CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy). This isn't even interested in the past it totally focuses on the here and now and teaches you skills that will allow you to change your way of thinking and deal with the anxiety moment by moment.
Jim:hugs:
This is the therapy I am on the waiting list for, as like you Crackdown I don't really want or necessarily need to back track to my childhood etc.
Jim has give you very good advice there and a peek at what possible options there are - please do reconsider taking tablets unprescribed, it honestly does not seem a safe option to me!
Love Piglet:flowers:
I can only agree with Piglet there.
Please think carefully. Psychiatric drugs are not things to be experimenting with unsupervised.
Jim :hugs:
nomorepanic
31-07-07, 19:39
Hi there and :welcome: aboard.
Just caught up with this thread.
It is hard to know what to do for the best sometimes but can you not wait until you have see the pysch and maybe changed doctor's before deciding.
One thing that did concern me was ..
"He has a 6 month supply which he can share, since his GP (used to be my GP as well) is a family friend he can easily get a new package."
His GP should be monitoing exactly how many tablets your brother has and not dishing them out willy-nilly. Surely your brother would have to be be doubling his dose to supply you as well and this should ring alarm bells with the doctor.
What if he suddenly can't get them so you have to stop cold turkey with yours?
Just some thoughts anyway.
Hi there and :welcome: aboard.
Just caught up with this thread.
It is hard to know what to do for the best sometimes but can you not wait until you have see the pysch and maybe changed doctor's before deciding.
One thing that did concern me was ..
"He has a 6 month supply which he can share, since his GP (used to be my GP as well) is a family friend he can easily get a new package."
His GP should be monitoing exactly how many tablets your brother has and not dishing them out willy-nilly. Surely your brother would have to be be doubling his dose to supply you as well and this should ring alarm bells with the doctor.
What if he suddenly can't get them so you have to stop cold turkey with yours?
Just some thoughts anyway.
thanks for your comment. Well I'm not sure how to put it, Doctors in Germany are totally different then the ones here, also the whole health system is absolutly different to the UK. The GP in Germany has been the family doctor even before I was born, when I went on holidays to Germany two years ago and had no health insurance (there is no such thing as the NHS in Germany), he still came to visit me when I had mumps and couldnt leave the bed, despite no health insurance, he prescribed me medication and treated me. So when I mean my brother gets me the tablet, it basically means he sends me a like 28 tablets as the GP is on holidays for another 2 weeks, once he is back I will talk to him myself and let him prescribe them for me, through my brothers health insurance. So yea I wouldnt let me brother take a double dosage or whatever just so I can have these tablets.
I will talk to the therapist on friday, see what she says about the medication and if she thinks they are suitable for me. I was just out the house and went to Mc donalds, I almost collapsed at the counter, my head went crazy, I'm just fed up, I couldnt even eat the food now as everytime I swalloed it thought I will choke n die. I normally have one or the other, but today I feel like im going CRAZY. I wonder if thats related to the propranolol.
nomorepanic
01-08-07, 23:24
Have you thought about alternatives to Meds - like CBT and therapy?
Also you can self-help with Vitamin B complex, relaxation, breathing exercises, good diet and exercise.
Funny thing about Vit B
I've been taking it for years - Stopped last month on a friends suggestion and noticed an improvement straight away.
Phill :shades:
How did you get on on Friday?
@nomorepanic
well I did consider CBT but the waiting list seems to be huge, I took multi vitamins n all kinds of stuff a while ago for a couple of month period but there was change in my anxiety/behaviour. I will buy myself some inline skates and plan to go around skating the parks, which I think counts as excercise, looks fun and I can just roll away when things get too much.
@jo61
The therapy was as expected, all I did was talk about my childhood and about my anxiety/panic attacks, when I asked her if she knows anything about medication she said she doesnt know that much about meds and I should talk to my GP again. I must say it was a nice lady and I did feel comfortable talking but I think I won't go back anymore, my next appointment is in 1 month time, she is only in on fridays, so if I do decide to go there I will always have to wait 3 - 4 weeks for another appointment which I think is pretty much useless, with the therapy sessions being so far apart always I feel I got not enough time to "bond" with her and open myself properly. Also I believe 30minutes every month won't help me much with my anxiety etc... by the time my next session starts, I probably already forgot what I said or she said in the earlier session.
I think I'll be better off with the audio CBT tapes/handouts I got laying around here, which I got on the internet, the problem is just that I lack persistent after reading one or two sheets of the handout I usually can't be arsed to do read anymore for a couple of weeks. I'm losing interest too quickly. I know it's just me to blame but for some reason my mind just wants to block out those CBT things I should do and then after a week or so I forgot about them completly.
Well the tablets arrived only today (had expected them already last week), so I think I'll go ahead with the 5mg and see what happens. I think now is a good time to take them as I feel quite good today (and yesterday), so probably better to take them when I feel good, incase it increases the anxiety it won't be as bad as if I feel low already and feel even lower.
I also saw you can buy the cipralex tablets from the US or Canada (no not india as somebody said earlier), surely if these can't be bought without prescribtion in Canada, they can't be too bad?
I can only reiterate what I said before, taking meds without your doc's supervision is not a good idea. I seriously recomend you think again before taking these tablets.
Yes you can buy drugs in US/Canada, as they don't have an NHS and you have health insurance instead to pay for them. However, I'm certain that you require a prescription.
Most of the internet drug order companies get round this by asking you to fill in an online questionnaire that is supposedly reviewed by a physician who issues a prescription. While these companies may be based in the US, where the drugs come from is unknown. Mostly far eastern countries where patent laws on manufacturing brand name drugs do not apply.
I urge you to have a read of this article on the BBC website:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2190217.stm
Jim :hugs:
Cipralex is the best thing that could have happend to me. Already after the first tablet (5mg) I felt quite calm, it took almost 6 hours before I took it, as I was scared of side effects and that I might die or some bs like that, however, I was so calm and relaxed after about 1 hour, I went out on my own, all alone to the park and sat down, read the newspaper, layed in the grass for hours and just relaxed. Normally I can't even go out the house without massive attacks, messed up thoughts and anxious feelings all over. Today after almost 14 days of taking cipralex (10 days 5mg, 4 days 10mg),
I'm such a happy and relaxed person, my family came to the UK to visit, I was their tourist guide, talked to tons of people and just smiled at the ladies (normally I look on the floor constantly). Everything is great, had one or two nightmares (I read that could be a side effect) but they didnt bother me, I havent had a panic attack ever since. I almost fell down the stairs on the bus while looking at some ladies, normally I would have died of shame, but I just didn't care, spilled a drink all over me in middle of oxford street, I didnt care, screamed across the supermarket to ask my family about some food, everybody looked, I didnt care. I'm feeling soooooooooo free inside, its unbelieveable.
I do things I thought I never could do, thanks to cipralex. I must say from time to time there are anxious thoughts, but most of the time they just stop automatically after a few seconds/minutes, rather than going on for hours and hours and driving me mad.
Self medication was the best choice for me, f*ck the GP and his lousy attitude, I'm sticking to cipralex.
Glad things are working out for you, but I still urge you to go and talk to a doctor about this.
If things are serious enough for you to be on an AD you need to be under the care and supervision of a professional.
Possession of a controlled substance without a prescription is illegal in this country and you could face up to 7 years in prison. Also I've no doubt that your brother could end up in trouble for sending them to you.
Just because you are doing ok now, it doesn't mean you wont have problems in the future. Things can change on a day to day basis with mental illness. Escitalopram can cause lots of problems in the long run. Sexual dysfunction being very common (very important for a young guy, tmi :winks:), and whole host of other things.
One important thing to think about is that meds don't solve the root of the problem they just help cover it up and relieve the symptoms. Unless you plan on possibly taking them for the rest of your life, looking at other treatment options is a must. You should try to to address the root cause of this anxiety so you don't need to rely on meds or you could potentially end up with a much more serious illness in the future.
Your profile doesn't say how old you are? Is relying on your brother to send you tablets for the rest of your life an option you want to take?
I'm not a medical professional so I don't know what is best for your health and neither are you. You could end up making yourself very ill by taking these tablets.
Please give it another thought and go see the doc.
Good luck,
Jim :hugs:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.