View Full Version : Has google created more people with Health Anxiety?
Blue23Blent
08-09-18, 19:36
I've posted on here occasionally and I'm still struggling with throat concerns and back of tongue concerns. I still think I have cancer in my throat someplace or at the base of my tongue. This was all caused back when I had a mucocele and I started inspecting my mouth and throat thoroughly! Then I began the whole google road.
Everything I google and everything I still look up points to potential cancer. The only way I would even have a risk of cancer is because of oral sex and the HPV risk.
So I'm sure 90% of us have fallen into the google search bar when we get sick. How do you combat this? I still have symptoms and can't get over thinking about my throat and continuing my search even after a General Practitioner visit back in June and July visit to the ENT.
It's been about a month and a half now since my ENT visit and I keep reading how misdiagnoses happen in most cases and what not. So the google searches and worry continue.
Google = The Devil
It comes down to being strong enough to resist doing something which you know is very detrimental to your mental health. Google will always be there but you have the power as to whether you visit the site or not. It's your choice.
venusbluejeans
08-09-18, 20:08
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Google when used correctly can be a great tool. Google when used by HA sufferers probably has around a 90+% inaccuracy rate. Something worth thinking about.
MagpieWitch
08-09-18, 21:01
https://themighty.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/daa539e921be3a550f46b22404a144fa.jpg
unsure_about_this
09-09-18, 16:58
Certainly for me, it has made things worst. I got bad health anxiety and googling health condition has made things worst.
Shadowhawk
09-09-18, 22:24
In every shape of possibility it has made things worse for me.
What really compounds it, is that there are so many places that will say one thing, while a different site says another (this has recently been an issue for me). I completely understand medicine is variable, and always in context of the patient; but when different sites define the same thing differently (or are overly broad in definitions), it feeds the panic even more.
Blue23Blent
09-09-18, 22:27
I'm pretty sure all of my symptoms were caused by Health Anxiety because of Google. I remember everything was fine then I had my mucocele and started researching and mouth and throat issues came up and all sorts of things.
Now I think I have either Cancer on my voice box, epiglottitis, or throat or base of tongue cancer. So annoying. The symptoms are more annoying and uncomfortable then anything.
I keep googling though. Then when I feel better I keep messing and touching my throat.
All thanks to GOOGLE!
I don' think google causes HA, but it is a fuel. Since it is more ubiquitous than having to go to the library and find a medical book, there is an immediate way to satisfy the brain's desire for fear. Maybe that magnifies the degree of it. But, I think there are underlying factors that cause the actual HA as a mental state or behavior pattern. Not everyone exposed to Google gets HA ir obsessively seeks out information about disease and death. There are reasons some of us do that go beyond the info being available.
Shadowhawk
09-09-18, 22:56
I don' think google causes HA, but it is a fuel. Since it is more ubiquitous than having to go to the library and find a medical book, there is an immediate way to satisfy the brain's desire for fear. Maybe that magnifies the degree of it. But, I think there are underlying factors that cause the actual HA as a mental state or behavior pattern. Not everyone exposed to Google gets HA ir obsessively seeks out information about disease and death. There are reasons some of us do that go beyond the info being available.
RE the bold: That is actually a big part of the problem actually - anyone can start a website today, post up vague, incorrect, or badly repeated "health" info, and have it show up in searches. Even "respected" sites can post vague or scaremongering info (ahem... all heart dysfunction is failure!!!.. yeah, ask me how I know that.... :whistles:).
You are right, lots of people can search and not get worried at the results; primarily because they are able to accept when a doctor tells them they are ok, or they aren't feeling bad enough to take the bad stuff seriously. Even then though, I have read more than a few cases where good people get led down the wrong path because of all the unvetted information being put out.
Its easier to obsess for us, but there were plenty of hypos before the net. We are seeing a rise in cyberchondriacs now though....
MyNameIsTerry
10-09-18, 01:47
Guns don't kill people, people do. Not a bad comparison in some ways when we are all debating why the US won't remove guns from society which are killing lots of people...because so many have one. But it's really just an object and people would still kill each other with knives, baseball bats, toasters, etc.
Perhaps a false equivalence but you get the point. I'm talking about the ease of access issue as NervUs mentioned.
I suspect the bombardment of information doesn't help though so perhaps those susceptible are more easily sucked into it? Think outside the HA box for a minute. As a GADer the news, and all the negativity, has been a trigger. The GAD board gets posts about war & terrorism. The OCD board gets posts about poisoning and other subjects that could be made worse merely by the hysterical nature of the reporting; I wonder whether we had so many intrusive thoughts about sexual abuse as we do now considering the big media push to highlight sex crimes over the past couple of decades?
And lets not even get into the damaging HIV/AIDS campaigns of the early years.
TV, posters, etc all add to the cumulative effects. Look at the old crime posters the police put up everywhere, and on TV, with rabid evil looking bats and hyenas.
I've seen it talked about how the speed of modern day living is a cause too. We haven't evolved along with it so we struggle. It sounds plausible to me but the human race has been about struggle, war, poverty, suffering, etc so I'm unsure.
I'll be honest, I don't google anymore, and maybe it helps- however I still worry a great deal because at this point I know the symptoms of a lot of the terrible diseases, or I'll just attribute something I'm undergoing to some terrible disease.
I do still crave reassurement, however I generally come here for that.
unsure_about_this
10-09-18, 13:55
I worry about every symptom I get/have keep thinkign everything the big c
MagpieWitch
10-09-18, 14:25
I think Google definitely made my HA worse.
Before I learned to Google my symptoms I did have HA but since my dad is a doctor and surgeon and my mother is a nurse I would just ask them if there's something wrong, they would say no (or if yes tell me what to do) and I was happy and didn't bother.
Now I keep reading and then asking my parents because of the things I read and they do get really pissed off about that whole thing because I am telling them that years of med school are wrong compared to a news paper article.
Blue23Blent
10-09-18, 16:10
I think Google definitely made my HA worse.
Before I learned to Google my symptoms I did have HA but since my dad is a doctor and surgeon and my mother is a nurse I would just ask them if there's something wrong, they would say no (or if yes tell me what to do) and I was happy and didn't bother.
Now I keep reading and then asking my parents because of the things I read and they do get really pissed off about that whole thing because I am telling them that years of med school are wrong compared to a news paper article.
I don't have any medical doctors or nurses in my family. Due to the ongoing throat issues I'm experiencing the past few months I've been bugging my wife constantly looking for reassurance. Even though I've been to the ENT and he says "no cancer" and he promises and everything looks normal if anything it reaffirms acid reflux.
Since I'm not getting better I keep obsessing over it and seeking answers online. I keep saying "I can't take my mind off it cause I feel symptoms"
I blame google for everything. I wish I didn't know about sicknesses. lol
Google has made me crazy with my HA. My carcinophobia is off the charts, and when I do get a real symptom that has a relatively high chance (20%) of being C, like I do now, then it sends me into overdrive, and legitimate panic attacks. And I'm in my late 40's now, so the older you get, it seems the higher the actual chances of something bad occurring. I hate google. I know so many symptoms from past googling, that even if I can refrain from it, it seems too late and that the damage is done.
MyNameIsTerry
12-09-18, 01:54
Google has made me crazy with my HA. My carcinophobia is off the charts, and when I do get a real symptom that has a relatively high chance (20%) of being C, like I do now, then it sends me into overdrive, and legitimate panic attacks. And I'm in my late 40's now, so the older you get, it seems the higher the actual chances of something bad occurring. I hate google. I know so many symptoms from past googling, that even if I can refrain from it, it seems too late and that the damage is done.
That's just the facts I'm afraid. Luckily the way to deal with accepting it without it ruining your life is the same as the way out of the HA, or rather unlikely as it's a hard path for all of us with anxiety.
Probably,
BUT
Google can help too. I found NMP because of it, as well as other articles and things that at times calmed me down from anxiety.
Part of it is being strong enough to stay away when vulnerable. I think another part is if you do pull up that browser window, to type the right search text. Like "symptom x anxiety" rather than "what does having symptom x mean". I think that even with Google, we end up finding what we "want" to find.
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willieverbefree
12-09-18, 13:05
The internet has given/allowed us access to so much information- in some instances it may be beneficial, but I believe a lot has caused/encouraged a lot more anxiety than before it existed... I know that my health anxiety has increased ten fold, I worry now about things that I have experienced/done in the past, and fear illness because of it ..I have to take medication to try to control my anxiety/depression - more people than ever are on medication for anx/dep/panic attacks etc - they were not before the internet/google etc - so that in itself says a lot I think
I think another thing to remember is that google provides us with only part of the picture. An example would be you worry about a symptom and someone without HA might visit their doctor and if they get the all clear move on with their life. Whereas someone with HA googles and can't 'un-know' what they have read and convinces themselves it must be true. But this is only our interpretation of what we have read and doesn't represent the whole story or consider the expertise and experience of the doctors.
willieverbefree
12-09-18, 13:53
Im48
you are so right I think - I have a predisposition to anxiety, and I struggle to " Unthink" what I have read on the net re health issues - I can go to a GP, get tested and it shows up ok - then read/see something that creates doubts ..
Blue23Blent
12-09-18, 15:00
Im48
you are so right I think - I have a predisposition to anxiety, and I struggle to " Unthink" what I have read on the net re health issues - I can go to a GP, get tested and it shows up ok - then read/see something that creates doubts ..
And I think the hard part is when you feel physical symptoms. For example: my throat issue that’s ongoing and ENT said everything look fine yet I still have cough, dryness, and feeling like something is there you know.
Im48
you are so right I think - I have a predisposition to anxiety, and I struggle to " Unthink" what I have read on the net re health issues - I can go to a GP, get tested and it shows up ok - then read/see something that creates doubts ..
Yes I completely agree. For me one of the hardest things is reading something online and then the doctor saying the opposite. It is a complete contradiction and you don't know what to trust and if you don't feel trust you are obviously going to worry the doctor has missed something. An example for me would be skin. I have a mole I'm concerned about, ticks alot of the boxes yet despite this the doctor said it's fine. So to me it's like - but how can it be? If change is bad/new is bad etc etc, why am I an exception? It defies logic for me and creates doubt which isn't the friend of someone with HA.
---------- Post added at 17:23 ---------- Previous post was at 17:21 ----------
And I think the hard part is when you feel physical symptoms. For example: my throat issue that’s ongoing and ENT said everything look fine yet I still have cough, dryness, and feeling like something is there you know.
Completely this! For me it's moles. They are so visible and the common self-help techniques such as googling the problem + anxiety don't work because anxiety can't create moles. So when someone tells you it's fine, but you are still living with it it's very hard to accept compared to something that goes when you are reassured.
But that "someone" is medically trained...unlike Dr Google or all the other online medical sites. It comes down to perceiving yourself to be better informed and knowledgeable than someone examining you IN PERSON with years of medical training behind them
Im48
you are so right I think - I have a predisposition to anxiety, and I struggle to " Unthink" what I have read on the net re health issues - I can go to a GP, get tested and it shows up ok - then read/see something that creates doubts ..
Yes. Yes. Yes. This is exactly how I feel. Especially right now. I have a clear CT, but since I've read that many bladder cancers cannot be seen on CT, especially the flat ones, which are the more aggressive variety, and the ones that tend to recur, I am still having panic attacks about what my cystoscopy will find, and it's still a week away. I was at my regular doc this morning, we talked about the CT results, and he insisted that my chances of having bladder cancer are rare, especially since I've never smoked, and I'm still in my 40's, but I just can't find peace with that reassurance. I am still convinced that the worst will be found at the last minute.
But that "someone" is medically trained...unlike Dr Google or all the other online medical sites. It comes down to perceiving yourself to be better informed and knowledgeable than someone examining you IN PERSON with years of medical training behind them
Yes I know but I’m not referring to “Dr Google”. Im referring to information written by dermatologists who are the leaders in the field. The type of Melanoma I worry about has a misdiagnosis rate of 25-36%. How can you choose to ignore that type of statistic? All those “someones who are medically trained” got it wrong. Thats not rare, thats shocking. So a quarter or more cases are missed and its a cancer not to be trifled with. Is it any surprise i have no trust?
Blue23Blent
12-09-18, 18:55
Yes I know but I’m not referring to “Dr Google”. Im referring to information written by dermatologists who are the leaders in the field. The type of Melanoma I worry about has a misdiagnosis rate of 25-36%. How can you choose to ignore that type of statistic? All those “someones who are medically trained” got it wrong. Thats not rare, thats shocking. So a quarter or more cases are missed and its a cancer not to be trifled with. Is it any surprise i have no trust?
Then you read stories at least in my case on how Michael Douglas had throat cancer and it was misdiagnosed forever. So now I'm thinking "I still have symptoms" maybe something was missed!
It drives me nuts.
Then you read stories at least in my case on how Michael Douglas had throat cancer and it was misdiagnosed forever. So now I'm thinking "I still have symptoms" maybe something was missed!
It drives me nuts.
Agreed :( it’s pure hell.
Blue23Blent
12-09-18, 19:05
Agreed :( it’s pure hell.
I've seen regular doctor and she said everything looks fine. I've had a dentist exam (yearly cleaning) and nothing was mentioned. I've had ENT scope my throat and say it looks normal if anything acid reflux.
Drives me nuts! I still struggle and experience symptoms. Have to keep thinking "I"M OKAY!"
This is an interesting thread and the subject has been discussed several times. I truly believe the internet has both fed existing cases and started many on the path to the dragon's rabbit hole.
Prior to the internet (and I was around at that time), people would use books (remember them?). I recall people sitting in the library, white as a ghost, reading medical journals ;)
The thing is, Google really is a wonderful tool but when your mind is skewed with anxiety and you look up illnesses and diseases, it creates a monster. I'm not a sufferer but when I found out what kind of cancer I had, stage etc., it scared the bejeebers out of me! :scared15: It wasn't until I spoke to other warriors, survivors and my team of doctors that I heard the mantra "Everyone's different". According to Dr. Google, I had a 50/50 shot at making it 5 years. I'm past that and I was Stage IVa. So even when 'statistically' things look ominous, everyone is different.
And even when you 'think' you have all the symptoms of XYZ, it's not up to your anxiety ridden mind and a search engine to determine it.
Positive thoughts
So what's the point of going to the GP/getting a referral to a specialist dermatologist? Why not just read medical reports online and make your own diagnosis? Pay to see a private dermatologist and pay to have a biopsy? Would you believe the results of a biopsy?
So what's the point of going to the GP/getting a referral to a specialist dermatologist? Why not just read medical reports online and make your own diagnosis? Pay to see a private dermatologist and pay to have a biopsy? Would you believe the results of a biopsy?
Im not going to argue with you about it Pulisa. At the end of the day it’s me who has to live with this so if I feel I need to pay for a skin check because I feel uncomfortable with one specialists opinion that is my choice. I get one life and I’m not being pushed into doing something I feel puts it at risk just because someone else deems it disrespectful to not trust professionals.
Im not going to argue with you about it Pulisa. At the end of the day it’s me who has to live with this so if I feel I need to pay for a skin check because I feel uncomfortable with one specialists opinion that is my choice. I get one life and I’m not being pushed into doing something I feel puts it at risk just because someone else deems it disrespectful to not trust professionals.
Where did I say it was disrespectful not to trust a doctor's opinion? It IS your choice as to how you spend your money of course. Would you believe a biopsy result though?
Where did I say it was disrespectful not to trust a doctor's opinion? It IS your choice as to how you spend your money of course. Would you believe a biopsy result though?
Your entire attitude is that of it is disrespectful to think I know more than a professional. I don’t think I know more than a professional, I think people are human and make mistakes and I’m not comfortable with taking the risk of being one even if it is 0.01 or whatever figure you want to give it. If guidelines from specialists say A, B and C and then another says D, are they all right because by your logic specialists are seldom wrong? In this scenario who do I trust? And yes I would believe it because a biopsy is factual and not opinion.
Why not have a biopsy then? I'm not interested in an online argument.
Yes I am aware, I saw it thanks.
I know you have had a horrendous time, one that I cannot begin to imagine but it doesn’t mean that my own doctors are by default correct and that I’m not entitled to worry about my own health just because someone else deems it unnesercary.
Patronising everyone and then putting positive thoughts at the end doesn’t help much either.
---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:54 ----------
Why not have a biopsy then? I'm not interested in an online argument.
Because I can’t afford it as mentioned earlier.
I understand you are very worried. I have HA too you know. I just don't allow myself to google and scare myself witless. I have reasons why I can't get ill but I know how to protect myself from online triggers and don't go there.
Wow!... Excuse me? Ok then.. Worry away!
Positive thoughts
Many of your comments offer nothing other than patronising the OP and belittling their HA with how they are unfounded for worrying because you have real health issues that therefore make theirs null and void. If you can’t see that then that’s fine, but I don’t need your ‘positive thoughts’ but thanks all the same.
---------- Post added at 20:05 ---------- Previous post was at 20:03 ----------
I understand you are very worried. I have HA too you know. I just don't allow myself to google and scare myself witless. I have reasons why I can't get ill but I know how to protect myself from online triggers and don't go there.
I know Pulisa and I admire your strength and I have really appreciated your support on this forum. I just live a life where people constantly belittle me for my HA and I find it very difficult when I feel I’m being attacked for something that is who I am. Yes I can choose not to google and not doing so is my own weakness. But I can’t do anything in terms of trust and I feel so hideously responsible for my own health I feel like Im the only one who will look out for it.
Blue23Blent
12-09-18, 20:06
Calm down folks. I'm the one with potential throat cancer and haven't been back to ENT yet.
I apologise for my anger toward you Pulisa. I really do greatly appreciate how you have helped me here. I’m having a tough time at the minute and while it’s no excuse your comments touched a nerve and I overreacted. I really am sorry for that.
---------- Post added at 20:12 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------
Calm down folks. I'm the one with potential throat cancer and haven't been back to ENT yet.
For what it’s worth, even just a few moments of reassurance, I really don’t think you have throat cancer :hugs:
Then with respect, why are you here? If you don’t have HA and find it so disrespectful, what do you have to gain from a forum full of people who can make you feel that way? HA is an illness, to you maybe it isn’t as valid as what you have been through but sufferers still have a right to have a safe space to talk about their fears without feeling belittled because someone else has had it worse and therefore their experiences don’t mean anything. It’s unfair and it is wrong. You don’t know us, you don’t know our minds so you haven’t any right to tell us how we think. If you truly believe we want to be right in our anxieties then you are foolish. Feel free to block me, it will be no loss of mine that’s for sure.
I honestly think you get enjoyment in mocking other people because your life has been harder and that’s sad, very sad.
Having trust in the validity of a diagnosis is never going to be straightforward for someone with HA. Without wanting to sound patronising I think the danger lies in willingly searching for reasons why the diagnosis may be flawed because a diagnosis is always open to inaccuracy. Is a biopsy 100% accurate? I'm sure there are cases online where there were mistakes made. My dad's post mortem was flawed ironically.
I suppose it comes down to asking yourself who would you trust to look after your health and if it's only yourself then that puts you under immense pressure to get it right every time.
Having trust in the validity of a diagnosis is never going to be straightforward for someone with HA. Without wanting to sound patronising I think the danger lies in willingly searching for reasons why the diagnosis may be flawed because a diagnosis is always open to inaccuracy. Is a biopsy 100% accurate? I'm sure there are cases online where there were mistakes made. My dad's post mortem was flawed ironically.
I suppose it comes down to asking yourself who would you trust to look after your health and if it's only yourself then that puts you under immense pressure to get it right every time.
Yes you are right. Most of my issues come from the fact I ever googled it in the first place. Had I not I wouldn’t even know the condition existed to worry about so I would have trusted the specialist by default. I’m my own enemy in that sense and it’s the case of once you know you can’t take it back so the trust suffers. I’m sorry to hear about your Dad.
I certainly don’t trust myself, I’m the least reliable of the lot. So I guess that’s me stuffed :blush:
No I think you could look after yourself very well. Too much knowledge can be a poisoned chalice though especially when it doesn't apply to your particular case but you know this. It's like opening Pandora's box online..
I appreciate that you are going through a very challenging time and I don't take offence at anything you've said to me. I don't know whether these threads help people or whether we all just go round in circles with our different takes on things?
AMomentofClarity
12-09-18, 21:13
I don't know whether these threads help people or whether we all just go round in circles with our different takes on things?
This is a phenomenal question. There are certainly instances where people come on and say “I have abc symptoms, I’m worried about xyz condition, has anyone had something similar and turned out fine?” Then they’re reassured by the replies and disappear.
The threads that I struggle with are the ones where people post a concern, and despite pages and pages of reassurance, they’re back day after day, hour after hour practically demanding that they’re dying. To these posters I’m always curious what benefit they’re receiving from using this forum, or what exactly they’re hoping to get out of it.
I also have a hard time with people who dismiss any suggestions of anxiety or recommendations for help. I mean, you’re on an anxiety website after all.
i don't know if it creates more people with health anxiety but it definitely makes it worse for those with it already.
i regret going on google because it just makes everything harder. i google to reassure myself but only end up with 1000 more diagnoses. when i cant find a proper answer to my questions i just wanna cry.
Blue23Blent
12-09-18, 22:27
I apologise for my anger toward you Pulisa. I really do greatly appreciate how you have helped me here. I’m having a tough time at the minute and while it’s no excuse your comments touched a nerve and I overreacted. I really am sorry for that.
---------- Post added at 20:12 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------
For what it’s worth, even just a few moments of reassurance, I really don’t think you have throat cancer :hugs:
I want to not. However, I STILL have symptoms of the back of my throat feeling irritated and like something is there. :/
MyNameIsTerry
13-09-18, 02:09
This is a phenomenal question. There are certainly instances where people come on and say “I have abc symptoms, I’m worried about xyz condition, has anyone had something similar and turned out fine?” Then they’re reassured by the replies and disappear.
The threads that I struggle with are the ones where people post a concern, and despite pages and pages of reassurance, they’re back day after day, hour after hour practically demanding that they’re dying. To these posters I’m always curious what benefit they’re receiving from using this forum, or what exactly they’re hoping to get out of it.
I also have a hard time with people who dismiss any suggestions of anxiety or recommendations for help. I mean, you’re on an anxiety website after all.
I work on the basis that this is the attitude I will see. With many they are more receptive and accept they are flawed in what they are saying which then makes it a more positive experience in discussing what they can do/try.
Frustration comes from within. Life is full of people who will frustrate you. I find it better these days, after years of being the other way and fighting with people, to let it wash over me...afterall they're not my loved ones, merely a name on a screen.
But I understand the frustration. My belief is to expect it as part of the disorder, although it varies and there will be cases where it's not about a disorder, and be dispassionate about it.
But I think pulisa was talking more about threads about the root causes of HA than of any particular poster. To be honest it at least makes a change from endless symptoms threads. What causes what is a bit of a rabbit hole when the medical world don't know either but I think we are perhaps more in our element discussing what aggravates these conditions as it relates more directly to experiences we can put our finger on as opposed to what gene threw a wobbly one day and decided our fate. :biggrin: It can be useful in some cases e.g. a PTSD element.
---------- Post added at 02:03 ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 ----------
Yes you are right. Most of my issues come from the fact I ever googled it in the first place. Had I not I wouldn’t even know the condition existed to worry about so I would have trusted the specialist by default. I’m my own enemy in that sense and it’s the case of once you know you can’t take it back so the trust suffers. I’m sorry to hear about your Dad.
I certainly don’t trust myself, I’m the least reliable of the lot. So I guess that’s me stuffed :blush:
I think you are both right. Complete trust in the medical world is what led us to where we are now, untouchable doctors and we are still seeing scandals coming out.
But like many reactionary periods we often veer to the opposite end of the spectrum. Doctors are god > doctors are devils.
They make mistakes but thankfully it's uncommon when it's more serious. I believe they make more mistakes when it's a range of benign things with overlapping or subtle symptoms. But we can't argue that doctors do make life threatening mistakes too since even the NHS have published reports detailing it in order to improve it.
You do also have to be careful with statistics. Lies, damned lies and statistics. They tell you what political message they want you to accept. One of the first lessons I had in my economics studies at college from the teacher was "anyone who shows you a graph on TV, typically a political programme, that doesn't state the scales should be ignored" and she explained how it was one of the most basic flaws in statistics but also used to look pretty with little info so anyone can take it in, and it used to drive opinion in the direction they want.
That stuck with me and later on I ended up in a role producing, debunking and translating such things for senior managers. The savvy senior manager could be spotted by asking about detail that analysts would spend their days talking about. I saw many people get lambasted by such managers for not knowing what they were talking about...and provided some of the questions myself on many an occasion :winks:
So, it matters to delve a bit with high level statistics. For instance, cancer survival rates over 5 years. They can look bleak. They are on every top cancer site there is. But ask a consultant, someone in the know behind the scenes, and they will tell you that these statistics are based on populations from previous generations pf data as they are yet to be updated to match current success rates and new treatments.
And what about complications? How many in those statistics are caused by "dirty" data? The NHS has many problems and those stats include them e.g. half asleep doctors, stressed out doctors, later scandals coming up over botched testing, etc. It's not good to hear but sadly it's part of the system. And this can where the knowledge of the professional comes in because they know all this, not simply a number on a sheet.
I agree with holding doctors to account. I disagree with agreeing simply because someone is trained. That leads up back to the old days. But there has to be a fair balance. This is tricky though and perhaps if comes down to your impressions of the doctor?
---------- Post added at 02:09 ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 ----------
Having trust in the validity of a diagnosis is never going to be straightforward for someone with HA. Without wanting to sound patronising I think the danger lies in willingly searching for reasons why the diagnosis may be flawed because a diagnosis is always open to inaccuracy. Is a biopsy 100% accurate? I'm sure there are cases online where there were mistakes made. My dad's post mortem was flawed ironically.
I suppose it comes down to asking yourself who would you trust to look after your health and if it's only yourself then that puts you under immense pressure to get it right every time.
I think that's a good point to raise but there is more than one angle, one of which we see more of a problem with on here.
Any test is only as good as the person, procedures, equipment and people that ensure it's working. Biopsies can come back unclear but that's a trigger to further testing to a doctor as it's essentially a failed test. My GF's mum's biopsy came back this way and the result was a PET scan which revealed what the doctors suspected. A doctor not following up is an incompetence issue. Maybe there is the ethical questions about cost, need, etc if they were conducting a biopsy with little weight behind it but I suspect they are very careful here and guidelines are in place to stop guesswork for the sake of cost?
But for me the interesting point raised from your question is essentially the same as why people struggle to believe their doctor's opinion. The disorder itself. It can find any number of "what ifs" from possible to impossible and it comes down to us accepting this is just how brains work and it matters what we consciously give importance to. I'm sur we've both seen how extreme those "what ifs" can be on here alone with some people even worrying about evil people tampering with tests or manufacturers for kits just for their sick pleasure?
Pulisa's comment about trusting the training of the medical professionals is key, it really cannot be stressed enough until it sinks in and is accepted.
Yes, doctors can and DO make mistakes. Hell, I've seen it firsthand with my inner ear problem this year. First I was told I had BPPV and then told sinusitis, and neither were accurate. Mine is a very difficult one to diagnose statistically (Google said so! But it is right, it really is a difficult one) in fact the third diagnosis of vestibular neuritis was potentially inaccurate as well I've now been told (I'm too far recovered to know for sure :yay:). We do know that it is/was an inner ear issue though.
Point is, I diagnosed myself with the help of Google plenty. I thought I had a heart problem, I thought I had a brain tumor, I thought I had a blood flow problem like a compressed or soon to dissect artery, thought I had MS, or hell a few other totally random things. I thought the docs had it all wrong and I was soon to keel over or was beginning a long life of neurological disability. An inner ear problem didn't even get on my radar screen, or Dr. Google's!
I also recently saw second-hand with someone else, where a doctor got it wrong. I won't go into detail to keep from triggering anyone, but bottom line was my diagnoses on this one were wrong too...
So sure, in some situations there is a 25-36% chance of misdiagnosis, or maybe more, maybe less....but the trained professional is going to have those odds, while Dr. Google misdiagnoses 90%+, and we piddly non-medical students misdiagnose probably 95%+!
So which should we put more faith in? Doctors don't know everything, but they know enormously more than any of us do! When we need medical assistance, a trained professional is our best bet. Ask questions to them, not to Google. Get a second opinion if needed (but not if you have a pattern/history of unnecessarily doing so because of HA), but not from Google. If you do see something on Google that gets you worried, present it to the doctor! They'll very likely know if it applies to your unique situation or not.
The day may very well come that Google or some other technology will exist to accurately self-diagnose and have a better track record than trained humans, but we are still far from that in 2018.
Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
My grandmother used to talk about all her symptoms regularly and she said that doctors buried their mistakes, a saying I've always remembered. In those days no one challenged a doctor's diagnosis and you did as you were told re treatment options.
Maybe things were better then in terms of living with HA? There is far too much accessible "knowledge" now in my opinion and this can lead to confusion and misery.
Maybe the key lies in a second opinion. Doctors can make mistakes of course, but if a second agrees then I guess it is less likely. Otherwise you are in the impossible situation of either too much or too little trust. I read something once that said you can only do your best and then the rest has to lie in the hands of fate. I suppose it also depends on the situation. Someone having had infinite tests and still not believing is different to someone anxious about something with no tests at all. But then even here lies a problem as I might feel a biopsy would be reasonable, someone else might not and then another person might have a biopsy and still not be satisfied. You can’t really win. I agree though - a life without HA is a better one that’s for sure.
---------- Post added at 10:09 ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 ----------
No I think you could look after yourself very well. Too much knowledge can be a poisoned chalice though especially when it doesn't apply to your particular case but you know this. It's like opening Pandora's box online..
I appreciate that you are going through a very challenging time and I don't take offence at anything you've said to me. I don't know whether these threads help people or whether we all just go round in circles with our different takes on things?
Yes I definitely agree with the poisoned chalice. All the googling in the world still can’t give you the experience of working in the field, so whatever knowledge I have or think I have, still won’t ever be the full picture and I do know that.
I really appreciate that thanks Pulisa, you are very kind. I think with any philosophical kind of post this is often how it ends up, especially when you are on a forum of highly strung, anxious folk. :blush:
---------- Post added at 10:12 ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 ----------
This is a phenomenal question. There are certainly instances where people come on and say “I have abc symptoms, I’m worried about xyz condition, has anyone had something similar and turned out fine?” Then they’re reassured by the replies and disappear.
The threads that I struggle with are the ones where people post a concern, and despite pages and pages of reassurance, they’re back day after day, hour after hour practically demanding that they’re dying. To these posters I’m always curious what benefit they’re receiving from using this forum, or what exactly they’re hoping to get out of it.
I also have a hard time with people who dismiss any suggestions of anxiety or recommendations for help. I mean, you’re on an anxiety website after all.
I think there is a spectrum of types of sufferer. There are those like you say who want to hear someone else has a similar problem before they are satisfied and others who never will be. What I personally find beneficial about the forum is to ask for advice on how better to deal with my concerns, it’s sometimes helpful to hear from someone who is outside your way of viewing things and can give you a better way of looking at things. But it seems for a quite a few people (despite being on an anxiety forum :ohmy:) they don’t seem to realise they have anxiety and just want you to tell them they aren’t dying so they can go on their way and come back when they think they have a new disease.
Terry and Jray - I agree with everything you have both said but I didn’t want to quote your posts and take up this whole page with my comment :blush:
there would still be HA but not quite at this scale, we'd be unaware of half the symptoms we say we have.
I find it quite telling that people in the midst of a crisis of repeated posts themselves happily write off the concerns of others with worrying symptoms, give rational advice and then go back to obsessing about their own spiralling health concerns. They just don't want to know when it comes to themselves.
I think a forum such as this one can be very helpful for people who want to get a handle on their HA and learn from the experience of others who have found a way to manage it long term. I'm not sure how helpful talking about symptoms is in terms of potential recovery/improvement in anxiety levels but maybe people just need an outlet to express their fears as opposed to committing to a recovery plan? Just lessening anxiety can be a real achievement and therapy doesn't help everyone.
I find it quite telling that people in the midst of a crisis of repeated posts themselves happily write off the concerns of others with worrying symptoms, give rational advice and then go back to obsessing about their own spiralling health concerns. They just don't want to know when it comes to themselves.
I think a forum such as this one can be very helpful for people who want to get a handle on their HA and learn from the experience of others who have found a way to manage it long term. I'm not sure how helpful talking about symptoms is in terms of potential recovery/improvement in anxiety levels but maybe people just need an outlet to express their fears as opposed to committing to a recovery plan? Just lessening anxiety can be a real achievement and therapy doesn't help everyone.
It's an interesting one because I myself find it easy to rationalise when it comes to others but not myself. I guess it comes down to the comfort with uncertainty. If it's someone you don't know, 99% certainty seems essentially a guarantee or at least enough of one. But when it's your own mortality you only see the 1% chance and that becomes your focus. It sounds selfish but for me personally it isn't actually because I don't care if something happens to them, I just genuinely don't believe it will because I am able to focus on the opposite statistic.
I agree that talking about symptoms doesn't achieve much because for a start we can't even be sure we are all describing or experiencing something the same. What is one person's minor headache is another's migraine etc. I think sometimes it just helps to rant, particularly when you don't want to burden your loved ones with your fears anymore.
I find it quite telling that people in the midst of a crisis of repeated posts themselves happily write off the concerns of others with worrying symptoms, give rational advice and then go back to obsessing about their own spiralling health concerns. They just don't want to know when it comes to themselves.
I think a forum such as this one can be very helpful for people who want to get a handle on their HA and learn from the experience of others who have found a way to manage it long term. I'm not sure how helpful talking about symptoms is in terms of potential recovery/improvement in anxiety levels but maybe people just need an outlet to express their fears as opposed to committing to a recovery plan? Just lessening anxiety can be a real achievement and therapy doesn't help everyone.
I've observed the same behaviors. The purpose and name of the site is "No More Panic" not "Feed the Dragon". Talking about symptoms and spending hours and hours here and googling is perpetuating the cycle. Ultimately, these are just words on a screen. It's up to the individual to follow advice and take the steps necessary to recover. There is a Facebook page of former members in recovery. Most of which I know from my time here. So it is possible.
The reality is, regardless of reassurance and advice, there are some that for wherever reason, cannot or will not address their real illness. For those in that situation, this site is essentially a daily diary of symptoms and fears and an audience for some reassurance.
Positive thoughts
I really don't see how a daily record of symptoms can help anyone and I think in these circumstances it would be good to have admin intervene to break the cycle. This happens on the OCD UK website but I expect it would be controversial on here.
I really don't see how a daily record of symptoms can help anyone and I think in these circumstances it would be good to have admin intervene to break the cycle. This happens on the OCD UK website but I expect it would be controversial on here.
I know on the Facebook page about recovery, admin steps in when the posts become about reassurance seeking. I don't expect anything like that here nor do I see anything changing concerning journal like entries. Perhaps a Symptoms Journal sub-forum where people can post their daily symptoms to their dragon's delight and not expect feedback?
Positive thoughts
I know on the Facebook page about recovery, admin steps in when the posts become about reassurance seeking. I don't expect anything like that here nor do I see anything changing concerning journal like entries. Perhaps a Symptoms Journal sub-forum where people can post their daily symptoms to their dragon's delight and not expect feedback?
Positive thoughts
It would be interesting to assess just how important feedback was to the daily symptom blogger? Do you think many people would choose to use such a sub forum if there was no feedback?
It would be interesting to assess just how important feedback was to the daily symptom blogger? Do you think many people would choose to use such a sub forum if there was no feedback?
Not that there wouldn't be feedback, but it certainly would reduce traffic. Look at the results of moving all the rabies threads into it's own sub-forum. If feedback didn't matter at all, I think people would have their own private blogs and such but I think there is a level of seeking reassurance regardless and an audience helps.
Positive thoughts
AMomentofClarity
13-09-18, 19:07
It would be interesting to assess just how important feedback was to the daily symptom blogger? Do you think many people would choose to use such a sub forum if there was no feedback?
I think an audience is very important, but who the audience is and what their replies are often seem meaningless. I’m thinking of the threads that start “I’m worried about ABC symptoms”, followed by reassuring replies, to which the OP responds with just another variation of “Im worried about ABC symptoms.” Clearly they love having the audience provide an opportunity to discuss their fears, but they have no interest in engaging in discussion with the audience or often times even acknowledging the replies.
I’m not saying this goes for every poster here, just an observation, particularly about those who are deeper down the rabbit hole.
I think those who have the most severe HA would be grateful for any help and support they received. Those who have an intense need for attention and reassurance are not necessarily those who suffer the most in my opinion.
Blue23Blent
14-09-18, 05:16
Yeah, I think people need that reassurance. Whether it’s doctors or other people.
willieverbefree
14-09-18, 15:34
I agree!! I think those of us that struggle with severe HA are grateful for any help and support - and its not a form of attention seeking ..
I agree!! I think those of us that struggle with severe HA are grateful for any help and support - and its not a form of attention seeking ..
Those that struggle severely are always receptive to support because why do they need to attention-seek? They want help and advice pure and simple.
I think those who have the most severe HA would be grateful for any help and support they received. Those who have an intense need for attention and reassurance are not necessarily those who suffer the most in my opinion.
The squeakist wheel gets more grease - sadly works in all aspects of society
I honestly think people with severe HA want quite the opposite of attention. I’m sure many of us would far rather never have a need for a forum like this again if we could. Not because there aren’t lovely members and help available, but because frankly we’d rather not need it. Most people don’t want sympathy, they are just desperate for a way to cope with their problems and don’t know what else to do by this point.
The squeakist wheel gets more grease - sadly works in all aspects of society
Very true. No prizes for those who quietly cope as best they can with very challenging circumstances.
MyNameIsTerry
15-09-18, 01:44
Very true. No prizes for those who quietly cope as best they can with very challenging circumstances.
Like in real life, many people don't talk so don't get. You don't even know they are ill.
I've known people on here who have not wanted to inform the whole forum about their illnesses for fear of triggering others which I think is wrong because they are entitled to support. But I've also known some who won't tell you they are ill because they don't want to be defined by their illness and want to be treated the same as they want normality in their lives and to have their minds taken off it. My parents have said this, and they've had to see a lot of people leave from their generation, that it's important to make someone even terminal feel like life is just going on and let them talk when they want to.
---------- Post added at 01:44 ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 ----------
I honestly think people with severe HA want quite the opposite of attention. I’m sure many of us would far rather never have a need for a forum like this again if we could. Not because there aren’t lovely members and help available, but because frankly we’d rather not need it. Most people don’t want sympathy, they are just desperate for a way to cope with their problems and don’t know what else to do by this point.
In the diverse world of mental health we have conditions that do work for attention and illness can be seen as a great way to achieve that. Certain Personality Disorders, for instance. But I think it will be rare they are on here because there are other characteristics that point them out as their behaviour tends to be toxic.
There is the issue of poor insight into disorders but also the severity. It's hard to do much of anything when every minute of the day revolves around obsessive-compulsive cycles. Depression is often a good way to understand how this manifests into destruction of your life, wards have people on them who are those extremes.
But for the vast majority no one wants what they fear. It's like saying people enjoy feeling like this. You would have to be insane to think that, it's a horrible way to struggle through your life everyday. But there is the avoidance/safety issue in anxiety, the "better the devil you know", which is fear cycle 101 stuff which is there to stop you going outside of that bubble to pet the angry looking bear. The trouble for us is we do have to work towards petting that bear, or rather the cute bunny that is manifesting as a bear in error :D
willieverbefree
15-09-18, 10:35
I have struggled with bouts of extreme health anxiety for over 20 years, its a living hell at times -I can have periods when I feel almost normal ( able to enjoy life), then unfortunately something will happen and I am on that train again..It becomes a relentless struggle to control the thoughts,fears,worries etc... It is the most frightening and isolating experience and no one can take it away ..It is a life sentence - and an ongoing battle... I want to feel able to enjoy life - not fear it, its an awful place to be in..I know many people that really do not suffer or understand - I envy them that..Sometimes I feel that I am being weak, but trying to be strong takes every ounce of strength to just live and carry on..
I know I angered you by touching a nerve, lucymarie but maybe this could be seen as a positive thing? I'm as guilty as anyone of "avoiding" painful stuff and as a result my life has been geared around trying to cope with an untreated eating disorder/OCD and failing. I always attempt to challenge people because I want them to get better and not be held hostage longterm to a mental health issue. I can see you as having the strength and determination to get to grips with your HA and to be able to manage it successfully. I think it's all about having confidence in yourself to resist all known triggers and to keep your mind focussed on fact not speculation or general information aimed at an avid online readership of HA sufferers.
I know I angered you by touching a nerve, lucymarie but maybe this could be seen as a positive thing? I'm as guilty as anyone of "avoiding" painful stuff and as a result my life has been geared around trying to cope with an untreated eating disorder/OCD and failing. I always attempt to challenge people because I want them to get better and not be held hostage longterm to a mental health issue. I can see you as having the strength and determination to get to grips with your HA and to be able to manage it successfully. I think it's all about having confidence in yourself to resist all known triggers and to keep your mind focussed on fact not speculation or general information aimed at an avid online readership of HA sufferers.
I agree it is good to be challenged. But what angered me was the presumption that doctors are always right and should be implicitly trusted. Therefore if you dont, its disrespectful. That isnt something I agree with and while I know people with HA often distrust when it isnt warranted, that doesnt mean it always is nor do I feel it is disrespectful. Its funny because alot of the time the members on this forum who seem to think that, are the ones who mock other members on their threads which is far more disrespectful to me than wanting a second opinion about your health. Im not saying that applies to you by any means, but it something I have personally observed and believe to be true. Many statements seem to come across as if they are gospel and that a stranger knows more about someones mental health than the individual themselves. Such as the conversation above about who does or doesnt have the most severe HA and their resulting behaviour. Who really are any of us to say how others should or shouldn’t cope or what that says about the depth of someones illness. I think there is a bit of a culture here where established members think they are better advised than the rest of us when it comes to mental health and therefore reserve the right to judge. Frankly its unpleasent and when I first joined the forum I thought it was a place of support and now most of what I see is knocking people down and telling them why they are stupid.
AMomentofClarity
15-09-18, 19:24
I agree it is good to be challenged. But what angered me was the presumption that doctors are always right and should be implicitly trusted. Therefore if you dont, its disrespectful. That isnt something I agree with and while I know people with HA often distrust when it isnt warranted, that doesnt mean it always is nor do I feel it is disrespectful. Its funny because alot of the time the members on this forum who seem to think that, are the ones who mock other members on their threads which is far more disrespectful to me than wanting a second opinion about your health. Im not saying that applies to you by any means, but it something I have personally observed and believe to be true. Many statements seem to come across as if they are gospel and that a stranger knows more about someones mental health than the individual themselves. Such as the conversation above about who does or doesnt have the most severe HA and their resulting behaviour. Who really are any of us to say how others should or shouldn’t cope or what that says about the depth of someones illness. I think there is a bit of a culture here where established members think they are better advised than the rest of us when it comes to mental health and therefore reserve the right to judge. Frankly its unpleasent and when I first joined the forum I thought it was a place of support and now most of what I see is knocking people down and telling them why they are stupid.
I’ve had more than my share of health anxiety in the last 15 years, I understand what it’s like. But, I think that what some people may feel is “mocking” or “judging” is really just challenging the sufferers thoughts.
When I was in the midst of a terrible stretch, I was going on and on to my family about my symptoms and how I must have cancer, etc...very similar to a lot of threads here. Finally someone asked me, “what do you want me to tell you? If I say you’re fine you argue, but if I agree your sick that will certainly upset you!!”
That conversation resonates with me to this day...most of the time there’s nothing you can say to HA sufferer to reassure them or make them feel better. For that reason, I don’t think challenging thoughts is a bad approach, you can hopefully help someone understand the flaws in their logic.
I'm sorry you feel like this, lucymarie.
I’ve had more than my share of health anxiety in the last 15 years, I understand what it’s like. But, I think that what some people may feel is “mocking” or “judging” is really just challenging the sufferers thoughts.
When I was in the midst of a terrible stretch, I was going on and on to my family about my symptoms and how I must have cancer, etc...very similar to a lot of threads here. Finally someone asked me, “what do you want me to tell you? If I say you’re fine you argue, but if I agree your sick that will certainly upset you!!”
That conversation resonates with me to this day...most of the time there’s nothing you can say to HA sufferer to reassure them or make them feel better. For that reason, I don’t think challenging thoughts is a bad approach, you can hopefully help someone understand the flaws in their logic.
Exactly! It comes back to saying the sky is green when it's a fact it's blue. I get that even medical professionals can get it wrong. Heck, my wife was somewhat misdiagnosed with her illness but several doctors and multiple scientific medical tests? When is enough enough and what can an internet forum of anxiety sufferers say that the medical professionals haven't?
If people want to chase a diagnosis that will never come, that's their prerogative. The "Told Ya So Gang" is always on standby :winks:
Positive thoughts
Challenging the thought is a pillar of CBT.
Whether it's coming from within or from someone else it shouldn't be in the form of mockery, but it should still be a firm challenge to the distorted thought(s).
Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
Challenging the thought is a pillar of CBT.
Whether it's coming from within or from someone else it shouldn't be in the form of mockery, but it should still be a firm challenge to the distorted thought(s).
Part of it is also perception IMO. Perception of the symptoms as well as the words challenging the thoughts. The extreme examples of skewed perception seen in many posts is evident. The fact is that the perceptions of sufferers are skewed and one can take words on a screen in a way that is an attack on that skewed perception, thus a defensive posture and again, the member almost arguing they have the illness they fear. I get that the anxiety ridden mind sometimes cannot see facts but they are facts nonetheless.
At any given time there are a couple hundred or less members posting. When you take into account the odds of the various diseases they fear vs. the general population and the fact this is an anxiety board, what are the real chances that the member has the illness they fear?
Positive thoughts
MyNameIsTerry
16-09-18, 02:04
Challenging the thought is a pillar of CBT.
Whether it's coming from within or from someone else it shouldn't be in the form of mockery, but it should still be a firm challenge to the distorted thought(s).
Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
Yes, it is. But a therapist acts professionally at all times as they have a code of conduct to adhere to.
With human beings it's a different matter and comes down to the person themselves. And then there is the frustration issue.
Honestly, this "being straight" argument was going on before I joined and NEVER has there been any agreement from members on here about the best way to do anything. In truth there is a scale between "tea & sympathy" (enabling) and being a aggresive. It's caused many an argument between members, in most cases not even the OP's of the threads.
But all that matters is what Admin say how we should conduct ourselves but sadly this is not what happens at all times on here and so posts get deleted. In some cases that is more frequent than others.
Challenging has nothing to do with intentionally inflammatory comments.
---------- Post added at 02:04 ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 ----------
I agree it is good to be challenged. But what angered me was the presumption that doctors are always right and should be implicitly trusted. Therefore if you dont, its disrespectful. That isnt something I agree with and while I know people with HA often distrust when it isnt warranted, that doesnt mean it always is nor do I feel it is disrespectful. Its funny because alot of the time the members on this forum who seem to think that, are the ones who mock other members on their threads which is far more disrespectful to me than wanting a second opinion about your health. Im not saying that applies to you by any means, but it something I have personally observed and believe to be true. Many statements seem to come across as if they are gospel and that a stranger knows more about someones mental health than the individual themselves. Such as the conversation above about who does or doesnt have the most severe HA and their resulting behaviour. Who really are any of us to say how others should or shouldn’t cope or what that says about the depth of someones illness. I think there is a bit of a culture here where established members think they are better advised than the rest of us when it comes to mental health and therefore reserve the right to judge. Frankly its unpleasent and when I first joined the forum I thought it was a place of support and now most of what I see is knocking people down and telling them why they are stupid.
What you have to remember is that there are hundreds of members on here yet what you speak off will be a vocal minority. Unfortunately Admin can't police threads like a walk-in session. There have been many discussions on here that would not be tolerated in the walk-in sessions I have been too as co-ordinators are strict on rules for very obvious reasons with people in delicate states.
But Admin can't achieve that as the only way would be to vet every single post before they show. The other way is to trust people to stick to the respect rules. Sadly, the latter can't always work in an emotional environment and it's been proved over & over that some won't listen to Admin anyway.
Please be careful with generalisations. Remember, some people don't post much. There are older members on here who have stated they disagree with things like this but there comes a point where you get sick of the inevitable debates about what's the right way when views are entrenched so nothing much changes and then there are the arguments which we don't need. That's not a criticism, it's just to point out that what you might not reflect what some of us know about other members views on here and why they no longer get involved in this stuff so things can appeared skewed to the views of those who do.
There is a need to be able to question medical advice and the NHS even encourage this as their charters show. We should trust in our doctors but blind trust is another matter. The difficulty it knowing when you are searching out Confirmation Bias rather than being objective about things. I don't have HA elements in my anxiety but I do have OCD and OCD is under the fictional HA banner so learning about the theme is something I did to add to my non HA OCD understanding. But it's true that it is important to read what the professionals say, in the anxiety world I've come across plenty of ignorance about disorders. I think having a HA label doesn't help with this when many people actually have OCD which doesn't know this fictional HA barrier and can cross into any other theme.
willieverbefree
16-09-18, 12:03
We human beings are a complex species, we can only really know as individuals how we think and feel and cope/dont cope etc .. We can all wear a mask, and go around smiling and appearing care/worry free - but behind closed doors the mask comes off...We are all influenced/shaped by our parents/upbringing, experiences, situations, circumstances etc - Every one is an individual, everyone has different fears/behaviour traits,reactions etc ...My parents ( elderly ones now) have never understood my thoughts/fears - their very unhelpful response is " Dont know why you get like this"? - its an ignorant remark/comment..I always try to put myself in someone elses shoes, see things from their perspective and understand - Some people unfortunately are incapable of empathy/sympathy/understanding ( and/or it does not come naturally)..Some people are very self absorbed/narcissistic - only really care about themselves and can only see things from their perspective....
---------- Post added at 12:03 ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 ----------
Just to add on the subject of "Doctors and not always being right" I personally know of someone that was told by their GP twice that their mole was nothing ( when infact it was cancerous) - so they do and can make mistakes, I would always get a second opinion now for my own peace of mind if I was that concerned about something
Me too but I would draw the line after a second opinion. I would pay for a second opinion too if I wasn't happy with an NHS consultation.
Me too but I would draw the line after a second opinion. I would pay for a second opinion too if I wasn't happy with an NHS consultation.
When faced with a serious real illness or diagnosis, a second opinion is prudent and I got one. Not for the fact I had cancer, but to discuss treatment options. That 2nd opinion at Johns Hopkins is what ultimately saved my life. The vast majority of what we see on the boards are not just 2nd opinions, but 3rd, 4th, 5th+ opinions and multiple medical tests trying to diagnose something that just isn't there. We also see a plethora of unnecessary referrals (and self referrals out of pocket) for reassurance that ultimately feed the dragon and escalate anxiety. Even a normal referral as part of CYA medicine is taken as something troubling. I said on another post that of the tens and tens of thousands of posts and fears, I know of two that actually had something serious going on. In those cases and in my case as well, it wasn't multiple doctors and tests, it was obvious something was amiss. Again, people with anxiety/HA do get sick. We all do at one time or another but it's almost never (if you count the two I mentioned) the worst case scenario. And you know what? If it is, you'll deal with it. What choice do you have?
Going back to the original point, IMO, Google has definitely fed the dragon and birthed quite a few newbies as well. I've also noted that the ages are getting younger and younger which is a product of technology IMO. There have always been hypochondriacs but I believe it's being fed with 24/7 access to information. There's nothing wrong with valid information but HA has a tendency to overlook facts and cherry pick information to affirm irrational thoughts. I haven't actually counted but I believe the words "I read" are one of the most prevalent phrases used on the boards.
Positive thoughts
Kingdawson
16-09-18, 16:48
It's done wayyyyyy more harm then good imo.
willieverbefree
17-09-18, 08:55
I can remember the days before the net ( being a bit of an oldie) - I know for a fact that people young and older did not experience health anxiety to the extent they do now, I am not saying that people did not experience anxiety - but nothing like now and on such a scale that it affects thousands...The internet has given us access to so much ( too much ) information - we dont even know if all of it is accurate, as its written/reported by so many different sources...The newspapers/media also report stuff and we can never really be sure of all the facts etc ..Of course this all has had an impact - I know that I never used to worry as I do now, and I do try to avoid googling and some stuff in newspapers because I know it will affect me ..
Blue23Blent
17-09-18, 17:18
I can remember the days before the net ( being a bit of an oldie) - I know for a fact that people young and older did not experience health anxiety to the extent they do now, I am not saying that people did not experience anxiety - but nothing like now and on such a scale that it affects thousands...The internet has given us access to so much ( too much ) information - we dont even know if all of it is accurate, as its written/reported by so many different sources...The newspapers/media also report stuff and we can never really be sure of all the facts etc ..Of course this all has had an impact - I know that I never used to worry as I do now, and I do try to avoid googling and some stuff in newspapers because I know it will affect me ..
Also, everytime you turn on the TV you get a cancer commercial. Doesn't help.
I feel like there is also just a lot more anxiety type issues overall these days too. The Internet and social media have contributed quite a bit to this rise it seems for a multitude of reasons. Technology is changing faster than we can change, and it controls us more than we control it now.
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ScaredAsHeck
17-09-18, 22:30
I vote yes 100%. Every single time I’ve had a panic attack that forced me to rush to urgent care or the ER or calling 911 to have an ambulance come to my house have been from googling too deep or remembering things I googled. And every single time I was told I was okay. In fact, most of my panic attacks have been from googling and reading a stupid irrational comment or post made by someone with zero credentials and by reading that I somehow convinced myself that I was the chosen one, who would have that 1/1,000,000,000,000 next to impossible chance happen to me. So yes, most of my anxiety and panic attacks have been because of Dr.Google and I am convinced that I would probably not even be on this website if it weren’t for me stupidly googling nonsense through the years.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had anxiety most of my life and have had a few panic attacks here and there before the internet but nowhere near as bad as after googling things, google has supercharged my anxiety.
And I’m sure many others here can relate to me.
MyNameIsTerry
18-09-18, 02:06
I can remember the days before the net ( being a bit of an oldie) - I know for a fact that people young and older did not experience health anxiety to the extent they do now, I am not saying that people did not experience anxiety - but nothing like now and on such a scale that it affects thousands...The internet has given us access to so much ( too much ) information - we dont even know if all of it is accurate, as its written/reported by so many different sources...The newspapers/media also report stuff and we can never really be sure of all the facts etc ..Of course this all has had an impact - I know that I never used to worry as I do now, and I do try to avoid googling and some stuff in newspapers because I know it will affect me ..
Years ago there was less connectivity between people and I'll bet peer groups were few & far between. So, the volume is likely skewed by the fact we see it more these days. Just as these boards are crammed with negativity rather than positive messages and the meds boards are all about people struggling with meds as most people who have no problems with them aren't going to post to say everything is fine. We see that with things alcohol, only those that have problems will post, no one logs on to post about having a pint last night and it not bothering them for the same reasons I don't post twice a day saying I had a cup of tea and the caffeine didn't bother just as it didn't the last 2000 times.
There's no doubt the internet, not Google, makes it all
Also, everytime you turn on the TV you get a cancer commercial. Doesn't help.
Amen. This in particular drives me crazy. Makes me think of cancer even if I'm avoiding internet and google.
MyNameIsTerry
18-09-18, 02:43
Amen. This in particular drives me crazy. Makes me think of cancer even if I'm avoiding internet and google.
Most bus shelters and many billboards too.
Charities have latched onto modern advertising techniques too so it's a massive bombardment these days. Charity execs are so often private sector directors who sell whether it's cancer or mobile phones.
willieverbefree
18-09-18, 11:46
I often find myself turning the tv over or volume down - adverts re Cancer, sepsis, stroke etc etc - signs/billboards - ( subliminal messages) and rammed down our throats... Of course its wise to be aware of things - and charities raising money for reseach/good causes is a good thing ..Maybe its me being more conscious, but seems to me that we are surrounded by it all - and its having a very negative impact on peoples mental health/anxiety
Shadowhawk
18-09-18, 13:56
I often find myself turning the tv over or volume down - adverts re Cancer, sepsis, stroke etc etc - signs/billboards - ( subliminal messages) and rammed down our throats... Of course its wise to be aware of things - and charities raising money for reseach/good causes is a good thing ..Maybe its me being more conscious, but seems to me that we are surrounded by it all - and its having a very negative impact on peoples mental health/anxiety
Nope, its not just you at all. I agree charities can be good, but it feels like EVERY store has some charity drive running for some disease. The magazines leading up to registers are chock full of attention grabbing titles (i saw a WebMd magazine (oh god, why does that even exist?!!) with the title "Do you have lupis?). And as you pointed out, we have commercials at every turn for some new medicine being marketed directly to you (why?? The doc should be advising me what i need, not the other way around!!).
Even more, sites like bing and google have their "news" headlines populated with "health" news (half the time, its just a "Do you have X disease, check here!"). Anywhere you go or look, its something about a new disease, research, or superbug.
willieverbefree
18-09-18, 14:45
Its been regularly reported here, that mental health issues are on the increase ( all ages) and more people than ever are prescribed anxiety/depression medication ..Is it any wonder? Like you say shadowhawk - we are bombarded with so much - magazines are something that I stopped buying years ago, lots full of sensationalised stories re health..Its made us increasingly aware and conscious, and not always easy to avoid..There is that old saying " A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" - now we seem to have way too much thrust at us
Blue23Blent
19-09-18, 16:11
Yeah, My doctor told me to send her an email instead of googling. :)
Yes definitely.
It's now quite common practice for GPs to ask patients when they present "have you read anything online?" - as if to say, what has Google told you?
I think, however, there are some instances where Googling can actually be good. For example, to find out side effects of a new drug you're taking. But, generally, Googling for people with Health Anxiety is a BIG NO-NO!
I think, however, there are some instances where Googling can actually be good. For example, to find out side effects of a new drug you're taking. But, generally, Googling for people with Health Anxiety is a BIG NO-NO!
Actually, that's talked about a lot here and it causes undue additional anxiety.
Good things that Google can do. Recipes, shopping and pretty much anything non-health related. For non-sufferers, it's a great tool.
Positive thoughts
Capercrohnj
19-09-18, 17:16
For me google, especially google scholar have been excellent sources. It is very important that you vet your sources and stick to peer reviewed scientific studies instead of random newspaper articles, naturopathic drs websites and anything trying to sell you something. Once you become familiar with pseudoscience garbage it becomes much easier to spot it and label the source as a bad source.
Be aware that newspapers and tv shows seriously CHERRY PICK scientific studies so it's better to read the study itself rather than a reporter's biased opinion which often picks up small insignificant things that sound sensational and ignore most of the information. For example the study that shows processed meat may increase your colorectal cancer risk. What they failed to mentions is increasing risk by 20% just means your overall risk rises from 5% to 6% if you eat processed meat every single day so it's pretty insignificant. Also it's important to vet studies too. Always read the methodology. Was it a small number of participants, are they self reporting their diet, is there a control group, how long did it last, was there long term follow ups? Look for words like may, can possibly further research is needed, inconclusive. Studies with a small number and/or self reporting, no control group, no long term follow up, etc and use the above mentioned words raise major red flags. It's also important to understand the difference between correlation vs causation. The most obvious example of this are the ones that say diet soda causes obesity. These ones are mostly self reported (people tend to underestimate their calorie intake). So it's a correlation. Like how everyone who gets cancer drinks water. Correlation not causation. Also look for human studies. Rat studies are only confirmed in about 33% of human studies on the same subject. The breed of mice used in studies have a high rate of spontaneous cancerous tumour growth, way higher than humans. This is important in aspartame studies because they also give them doses that are way way higher than anyone would ever drink/eat in a day. Equivalent to something like 300 cans of diet soda a day. So giving massive doses to mice who will mostly all die from cancer anyways does not prove anything other than it was a poorly designed study. A little bit of scientific knowledge about study design really helps a lot with not freaking out about them.
It's sad that the education system doesn't emphasize critical thinking skills. In academia none of the pseudoscience sources would ever be accepted as valid sources in research papers/thesis.
I have found invaluable information about my chronic illnesses and complications (Crohn's and gastroparesis) and actually correctly diagnosed myself before getting actual diagnoses using google scholar. It would be a great disservice to the medical, scientific and chronic illness communities if we lost this service. I actually researched and found treatment options on it that for gastroparesis (which has very limited treatment options) that my dr never suggested or even mentioned beforehand.There are many great things on it and should not be dismissed because it causes some people to have anxiety.
Charity events are VERY helpful also. Just like anxiety, people with other chronic illnesses often feel isolated and lonely and walks/runs are great places to connect with others with the disease and feel like part of the community. There is so much stigma and misunderstanding about Crohn's, ostomies and gastroparesis so awareness campaigns are also important but we don't focus on doom and gloom more about how you can still live a semi normal life with them. Also scientific research is VERY VERY expensive and they are doing important research in curing/finding out causes of many diseases. Most of their revenue comes from donations not the government. I have 2 incurable diseases so I would be devistated if the labs who are doing research on them would close to lack of funding.
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