View Full Version : Advice need for a 9 Year old,please
I have found this website and I am desperately concerned for my 9 year old daughter. Off and on since my daughter was around 2 she has gone through phases of a fear of going places and getting very upset and worked up prior to the event/place and when she is finally there seems to be ok and would have a good time. I at the time put this down to age and part of growing up and being left without mummy. However lately in the past year things have become more serious. She sees her dad every 2 weeks and is very regular with him loves him to pieces. When going to her Dad's or a friends or even a family friend, the evening before she becomes very upset is constantly asking what time is she going what time will she back and it needs to be specific. Come the morning she complains of having tummy aches/crams she often has diorrea. She becomes hysterical at some points. When I ask her why she just says ' i don't know why, I want to go but...and then she can't explain it any further. I believe that she genuinely cannot explain it. There was also an icident recently. She was very moody, quiet tearful and during these days she walked around continuously with a pencil case full of pens and she spent the whole 2 days walking round with it and constantly reshaping them so that they were perfectly aligned. She misbehaved and I said to her that if she did it agin her pens would be taken away. She did it again and I took her pencil case and I cannot explain to the full effect of her reaction but she screamed in absolute terror at me not because I had taken them but because i had moved them out of alignment. Her eyes and her face I will never forget to be totally honest she frightened me. Her reaction was totally overreactive. I am sorry that this has turned into a long one but I honestly don't know what to do. I feel on one hand that I may be blowing things out of proportion but in my heart I know that this is not just an age thing and not just a case of I don't want to go. Any advice greatly appreciated...
hya,
my reply is going to be short,because meg,and nicola,will be able to advise you much better than me.
i found this wonderful site,when i was researching OCD for a friend of mine...it could be your little girl has a similar problem,but eary diagnosis,is essential...post here as often as you want...my very best wishes for you both...bryan
nomorepanic
01-11-03, 21:12
Hi there
This sounds very serious to me. Are you sure she is happy going to the places that you send her - i.e. her dad's. My first reation (and I apologise for this) was that she was being abused in some way so that is why she didn't want to go.
I am sure this is not the case but that was my gut feeling! sorry if that offended you
Have you asked her dad how she is when she is there?
She needs to see a counsellor of some sorts as these problems can only escalate out of control and get worse. I have not heard of a child this young having these problems as they have no concept of panic/anxiety/ocd etc.
How do you feel about that?
Nicola
Dear Karen
This is so hard for you if you've not met it before but rest assured this is fairly common. 1 in 200 children show classic OCD signs which these are.
It is very treatable and in classic anxiety based troubles the treatments are CBT/ exposure therapy with/or one of the SSRI's antidepressant but these are used widely for a variety of anxiety based illnesses.
A couple of books - one for you is
Brain Lock : Free Yourself from Obsessive-Compulsive Behavior by Jeffrey M. Schwartz
One for your daughter is - Up and down the worry Hill - by Aureen Pinto Wagner - it's excellent.
One of the most commonest symptoms in children is :
'Obsessive need for order or symmetry: An overwhelming need to align objects "just so." Abnormal concerns about the neatness of one's personal appearance or environment. '
Others are concerned with germs , safety of family members etc
My suggestions to you would be:
See your GP and ask for a referal to a child psych. Do not accept him/her messing about in general practice. The sooner she sees someone who deals with this day in day out the better.
Get the book for her whilst you wait and see what her reaction is to it..
Ensure she's eating very nutritiously or add in a mineral and vitamin supplement.
Keep life as normal as possible - don't use her obsessions as rewards / punishments but equally play them down and keep her going out and about .
She possibly started with an excess of seperation anxiety which has moved to OCD.
Hobbies wise - keep her active and focussed alternating with time relaxing and feeling very safe probably with you.
An odd one but try to give her responsibilities of looking after something else living that makes her feel needed and valued - ie walking the dog- but not as a chore- , a neighbours pet when on holiday - working in rescue kennels etc
Let us know how you get on. We're here for you ...
Meg
Watch your thoughts, they become your words...
Watch your words, they become your actions... Watch your actions, they become your habits... Watch your habits, they become your character... Watch your character, it becomes your destiny...
I was not offended but a little shocked at the suggestion of abuse. Her Dad and I are still very close and I have discussed this problem with him as he sees how upset she gets. She is fine when she is there it is just the getting here there. I didn't mention in the 1st posting that it seems to be with people that she knows. She is happy to go to school and has been attending a holiday club during half term with strangers and has been happy to go. Last weekend it was to go to the cinema with her godmother and she just got so worked up before she went was crying when we got there but managed to calm down and I spoke to her Godmother (who was the one who suggested panic attack) and asked how she was once she was with her and she was fine had a good time wasn't quiet or withdrawn. It seems to be the build up to where she is going and the thought of it. You can see in her face that she desperately wants to get it under control but she just can't which is why I know it's not just a simple case of tears because she doesn't want to go. The only thing she ever says is 'I want to go but' and she always stops there or she says I just want to be with you. I have never been late to pick her up or not been there when I said I would be and I thought perhaps she was just a little insecure but we have tried talking to her she just cannot explain it I am so grateful to all your advice and the books sound a great idea and I have got a doctors appointment for her and I on thursday. I am so frightened of going down this road the last thing that I want to do is make her feel abnormal, or indifferent. It terrifies me that I might get this all wrong and I don't want her to grow up and there be a problem and her say that my mum never understood me...does this sound all wrong? Thanksxxxx
nomorepanic
02-11-03, 11:20
Hi again
Sorry I wasn't implying that her dad was sexually abusing her or anything, I just wondered if someone close was maybe smacking her or punishing her and that is why she was scared of people she knew - because she didn't trust them.
Radar's advice is excellent - she knows much more than me about these things.
I am glad that you have a doc's appointment booked - get this thing sorted out whilst she is still young so she can have a normal healthy and happy childhood. I wouldn't wish panic attacks on my worst enemy let alone a young child with all her life ahead of her.
I wish you luck and please let us know how it goes :-)
Nicola
Dear Karen,
It so sounds like classic anxiety.. but kiddies cannot express the fears they feel.
You could ask her to draw what she's feeling. Often much more is expressed in these pictures then in their words. Watch for colours, grinding in of the crayons in certain part of the picture- any little details that she may add in that looks like not very much to you. Leave her to do it alone - don't watch over her for this.
When you take her to see a specialist don't worry of making her feel abnormal. Have the conversation with her so she knows what it's all about. It's your choice whether you go down meds route or a combination or just try out CBT first. It is important she's assessed. Take as much evidence with you as possible - dates when first noticed it, specific incidents, any school reports that refer to her behaviour- especially if she's fine there. it helps them build up a fuller picture.
You would be in the wrong if you didn't do anything and she grew up like this with no intervention. What do Dad/grandparents think ?
In the meantime teach her abdominal breathing- slow deep tummy rising breathing with the out breath longer than the in one.In for 2 out for 3. Practice it lying down to start with when she's fine, then sitting and when she's good at that - standing. When you first see her get agitated insist you do a 3 minute stint of these and see if it has any calming effect.
Have you tried her with rescue remedy ? It's may be worth a try - any Boots complementary counter and ask them ? for kids too. (It's also a very common treatment for pets on firework night) Just 2 drops in her drink. It's flower essences preserved in grape alcohol. 2 drops will not have much alcohol content . Try www.bachcentre.com for further advice on this with chidren.
It's interestng that it's mainly with social trips and people she knows. I do wonder whether she's holding an image in her head - from a film, a book, a friend's chatter or some other experience that triggers her off. Could be surrounding kidnapping, a child being lost and alone etc.
What's she like with going to friends houses or having them over to hers, or somewhere where there are several people to meet up with.
All the best for Thursday. Do let us know how you're doing.
Meg
Watch your thoughts, they become your words...
Watch your words, they become your actions... Watch your actions, they become your habits... Watch your habits, they become your character... Watch your character, it becomes your destiny...
hi karen
good luck with finding help and support for your daughter.
alot of fellow strugglers that i've spoken too over the last couple of years can see anxiety and o.c.d. traits running all the way back to and through our own childhoods. how you've described your daughters behaviour sounds very similar.
your doing the right things, talking to her, rest of your family, friends and even coming here to ask opinion. the next step is to get her treated, its not a terminal illness or insanity, shes picked up some 'thought processes' that are causing her some distress and she needs to unlearn them. keep your feet on the ground, if she wants to know whats happening - keep it simple, your trying to help her understand whats happening and to help make it stop. if you have to, be totally insistant with the DR for a referal to a suitable source of help.
its nobodies fault, just a situation that needs to be dealt with it. it may take a while, keep in touch, ask whatever.
take care andrew
Thank you so much once again. I have today spoken to my mum about it,she has seen Alice become upset although not to the full extent. She agrees that it is not good for her to be so upset and also agreed that you can tell she desperately tries to get in under control and she just can't. On Friday she was going to her frinds for tea, her best friend knows her parents very well and the same thing but again was ok once she was there. I will let you know how I get on on Thursday. She has always been a very deep thinker and does tend to stew and worry about things that seem small. Thank you once again I truly have found you all a great help....
nomorepanic
02-11-03, 20:52
Hi Karen
I am pleased that we have helped - I think maybe Radar did more than me but we all have our own opinions and advice and it helps to get different views on life.
Let's hope the doc comes up with some good advice!
Nicola
Karen,
We'll be thinking of you tomorrow. How has this week been so far ?
All the best.
Meg
Watch your thoughts, they become your words...
Watch your words, they become your actions... Watch your actions, they become your habits... Watch your habits, they become your character... Watch your character, it becomes your destiny...
I can't believe it - the doctors have called to say that the doctor I had the appointment with has been called away from the surgery and is not expected back today!!! I therefore have now got to wait until next Friday!!! This appointment is with a female doctor which I think may make her more at ease. She has been ok. She has not got any plans between now and her appointment. I am going to talk to her over the weekend and explain to her why I am taking her. I haven't mentioned it before now as I didn't want her to worry and work herself up, I was going to talk to her after school today before her appt. I have ordered the books that were suggested and they are due in on Monday! I will keep you posted and thank you for thinking of me.
nomorepanic
06-11-03, 20:27
Oh no - what a disappointment!
At least you can talk to her and she may understand more about why.
Good luck for next week now :-)
Nicola
Also Karen,
If your books do arrive on Monday you may have had a chance to read bits of them and thus be able to have more of a two way conversation with the GP, as you'll be better informed than you were a week ago.
Meg
Watch your thoughts, they become your words...
Watch your words, they become your actions... Watch your actions, they become your habits... Watch your habits, they become your character... Watch your character, it becomes your destiny...
Dear Karen
Please, please, please carry on exactly as you are with your daughter.
I started with exactly the same symptoms when I was a very similar age. I'm 32 now, and still suffering (although I get periods where I'm "fine". (These can last for years).
However, my mum and dad didn't know how to handle this, and it's only know that I am a grown up (although one that doesn't feel very grown up when I get panic attacks!) that I have been able to get help.
My mum once took me to a therapist, but he wanted to see the whole family together, and after seeing my interaction with my parents, tried to suggest that it was the relationship with them that set me off. Of course, they didn't want to hear that, and I never went back (he was right though - I love my parents and they love me, and I had a happy childhood, but as some people are, we are very different people - it's only as you get older you can learn to live with this).
I missed out on lots of things I wanted to do, with exactly the same symptoms as your daughter - Alton Towers, holidays, parties etc. etc. The list is endless.
Please tell your daughter that everything will be ok. It is most important for her to realsie that she isn't the only one, and that YOU and her dad are behind her. I wish my parents had been more proactive. Then I wouldn't be on this site now!
CBT is fantastic. If it's not available on the NHS in your area, then I recommend you go privately if at all possible.
Please don't give up hope. Your daughter is just a bit different, and because of her age is finding it hard to express herself. Continue to love, support and accept her for what she is.
Good luck with the doctors.
Charlie
Lottie I have only just read your mesg, in need of some final preparation and ammunition for the doctors this afternoon. What is CBT - still catching up on terms!!! She is not going to her dads this weekend as he is ill (one of the times she becomes anxious) so in a way that is good so that she can have a restfull weekend. I do feel guilty that I didn't recognise it before and I am aware that down the line I may hear something that I won't like but I am an adult and I can deal with it. I just hope that I can get across to this doctor just how much it does affect her. The more that I have been thinking about this I realise and remember things that have happened and they now make sense. Her constant time keeping, worrying about things that seem trivial her need for things to be symmetrical (although there have been only 2 incidents of this). But when she used to get so upset and get stomach aches and cramps/diorrhea ,because it was with people that she knew well logic in my mind was that it would be strange places or people she should be frightened of. I am going to talk to her before we go in adn take her in with me. I'll let you know later how we get on. Thanks once again for all your help.
CBT is cognitive behavioural therapy.
I still get wound up about going to places. I haven't had a holiday for four years. I don't go and stop with friends any more either.
Last year I got really bad, and didn't even want to go and visit my best friend who had just had a baby (and who lives a five minute drive away)!!! I too get the stomach upsets.
CBT works by listing all the things you don't/can't do (i.e. eating out) and then repeatedly exposing yourself to small tasks, leading up to being able to do your problem things (i.e. going out for a meal). You should try and do it without using props, and once capable, keep doing it. Basically you are re-training your brain that going for a meal doesn't equal panic.
I hope this makes sense.
Can I suggest that you make a list to take to the doctors. I always forget things, and only remember when I get outside the surgery. Just make a note of key events and symptoms for example.
Please don't worry about not spotting the symptoms. It's only now at 31 that I have finally got my problems recognised, and am receiving treatment. Alice is a very lucky girl that you got in so early and realised there was a problem.
Try and stay positive. You are taking action, you are going to get help for her, and she will get better. Beating yourself up about why, how etc. will serve no purpose at all, and is not really relevant.
Best of luck at the doctors! Look forward to hearing how you got on.
Take care
Charlie
hi karen,
i havent posted on this,because of alice/s age.
but ive been reading all the posts,and my thoughts have been with you both.
as charlie said,alice is in good hands with a mother that cares so much,as you do.
wish you both well at the doctors....bryan.
Thank you both! I only just found your postings. Charlie thank you so much for your explanation of CBT, and for helping me understand things a little more from her point of view. She hasn't said much about it since Friday. The only things she has said to me is that she asked me if I could tell her Dad what was going on (I had said to her that it was her choice to tell people if she wanted them to know) so that he would understand that it wasn't because she didn't want to see him or stay at his house but she just couldn't help it! She is due to stay overnight next weekend so I know that come Friday night she will start getting worked up. Charlie, is there anything that you can suggest when she starts getting worked up how i can make it easier. I know that down the line I will get to understand more and the counselling will help her but in the meantime it's hard to know what to do. It so hard to see her suffer.
I think the thing that helped me cope when I was younger (and now for that matter) was having some control, which is very difficult to achieve when you are only young!!!
Try to give Alice as much information as you can. I know It made a huge difference if I knew exactly what time I was being collected, who was collecting me, where, if anywhere we were going to stop on the way back etc. etc. Perhaps you could try asking Alice what time she wants collecting (within reason obviously, you have your life to lead too, and must make sure you look after yourself!).
With regard to staying with her dad. Do you live near to him? If so, might it be possible for Alice to visit with an overnight bag, but have the option of deciding whether to stay over or not. You could give her the option, and tell her that if she wants to come home you need to know by 8.00pm or something. I found that if this was done a few times, it could take the pressure off, and then I would actually be ok about doing something that upset me.
I think you really need to emphasise to your ex husband that none of this is personal. I used to get into such a state if i thought I had offended or upset somebody. It really isn't personal when I didn't visit relatives or friends, I just didn't feel able. I even used to let my mum buy me the most horrendous outfits, because I didn't want to upset her by saying she had terrible taste. Then I would spend ages agonising over the fact I couldn't possibly wear it, because it was too horrible.
Obviously, you need to draw a fine line, and set some guidelines with Alice about what she can and can't opt out of. I know when I got older, and didn't have any parental pressure, I stopped doing everything for a while, and you obviously don't want to get to this point. Maybe you could sit down with Alice and discuss the things she finds very hard, and you are willing to make allowances over (i.e. she must visit her dad, but can have the option of staying over).
I hope that this is making sense. I struggled terribly when I was Alices age, as I couldn't understand what was wrong with me and why! Being older now, I have learnt to accept that it's just a part of who I am, but it's very difficult for a child to "get her head round"!
Also, diet, exercise and having a hobby are very good, as is routine.And if Alice really wants to do something, and it's within your power to let her, then encourage her to do it. I got on various teams at school, and wanted to train and compete outside of school hours, but my parents were too busy to take me. I quite often think that if I had the opportunity to challenge myself more when I was a teenager, I would have got myself under control by now. Who knows?!!!!
Sometimes, going for a walk used to help me. My body had created too much adrenalin, and walking helped use it up, and therefore calm me down.
Above all, the best thing you can do for Alice is exactly what you are doing now. Be loving and understanding and above all listen to her, and I know that very soon, you will begin to see an improvement.
Charlie
I really appreciate all that you have shared with me. The last time that she was due to stay her Dad actually said to her well bring your overnight things with you and then if you change your mind you can stay and she did. He lives 15minutes away and they have planned to take her to one of his relatives for the day and at the moment she seems ok with it but it is the Friday night before. She does have a good routine with most things and she always had routine with her Dad. However in the past year he has changed things due to his work slightly and they may have contributed to it - who knows. She has had a lot of change we moved 18mths ago her Dad moved the month before and at the time she seemed to take it all in her stride but maybe it is catching up with her and this is part of the result I don't know. I am eagerly waiting the letter from the counsellor so that I can run through some of the questions that you have recommended. She has taken up running and she did the trials for a cross country run for the schools in the county and she made the team. She competed on Saturday and had a fantastic time with no worries at all. I was surprised when she said that she had done the trials because she lacks confidence in herself and is very conscious of what others think. She is very bright at school and has read from a very early age she just needs to believe in herself more.
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