Caffeine, anxiety's no.1 evil potion.

[lavender]

Im an avid coffee drinker, today ive had no coffee at all and it seems because of this i feel absolutely fantastic tonight, seriously i would think about stopping coffee if you drink it, i knew caffeine was bad for anxiety but damn, what a difference!

It seems this stuff is the no.1 thing to avoid permanently.

[DustingMyselfOff]

Wow, that's great news - hope the "feeling fantastic" continues for you! BUT, if you are an avid coffee drinker and stop cold turkey, I'm sure you know you will experience some withdrawal side effects, right? Maybe wean off slowly?
Sue

[BlueIris]

Coffee and migraines is a weird one. I love the stuff, but before I quit it I was getting migraine auras at least once a week (sometimes several in a day). Since giving up, I haven't had a single aura since last August.

[DustingMyselfOff]

I've been rethinking my thoughts on caffeine for the past few weeks, too. I have been drinking coffee since I was a teenager, and I remember when I went to see my doctor about my panic attacks he, of course, asked me tons of questions and got a thorough history on me. One of his questions was about my intake (alcohol, caffeine) and I remember telling him that I probably average 10 cups of coffee every day, and had for years. I am now shocked when I think back on that that he didn't bat an eyelash and never even suggested that I try to cut back. As a matter of fact, when I questioned it, he said if I had been drinking that quantity for years, that that would not be the cause for why I was now having panic attacks.

I now average 3 cups of caffeinated a day, and think that's a good number, but may someday even go down to 2. BUT, a couple of days ago, I was having a fairly good day, running lots of errands, and then suddenly went bad. Started feeling antsy, anxious, sickly, tired, and just wanted to rush home and crawl into a hole. it lasted the remainder of the night, and in trying to figure out what went wrong (because that's what us anxious people do!) I remembered that while out running errands I had ordered a large black coffee and had ingested the entire thing, in addition to the three I had at home before leaving the house. Could that be the cause? Will never know for sure, but very possibly!
Sue

[Phill2]

Coffee is a big no no.
I changed to decaffeinated tea for just that reason.

[lavender]

I've been rethinking my thoughts on caffeine for the past few weeks, too. I have been drinking coffee since I was a teenager, and I remember when I went to see my doctor about my panic attacks he, of course, asked me tons of questions and got a thorough history on me. One of his questions was about my intake (alcohol, caffeine) and I remember telling him that I probably average 10 cups of coffee every day, and had for years. I am now shocked when I think back on that that he didn't bat an eyelash and never even suggested that I try to cut back. As a matter of fact, when I questioned it, he said if I had been drinking that quantity for years, that that would not be the cause for why I was now having panic attacks.

I now average 3 cups of caffeinated a day, and think that's a good number, but may someday even go down to 2. BUT, a couple of days ago, I was having a fairly good day, running lots of errands, and then suddenly went bad. Started feeling antsy, anxious, sickly, tired, and just wanted to rush home and crawl into a hole. it lasted the remainder of the night, and in trying to figure out what went wrong (because that's what us anxious people do!) I remembered that while out running errands I had ordered a large black coffee and had ingested the entire thing, in addition to the three I had at home before leaving the house. Could that be the cause? Will never know for sure, but very possibly!
Sue

I'd say so Sue yes.

Ive cut right down to 2 small cups a day, since ive done this the anxiety has calmed down a lot, since caffeine is a very aggressive stimulant (worse than smoking) so much so it can actually kill you instantly with too much of the stuff! and it helps anxiety to kick in bigtime, as with us neurosis sufferers we have a lot of nervous energy inside that needs to be got rid of, and coffee just adds to it and amplifies the problem, a simple weird thought turns into a big panic attack because of this.

After 5PM i highly recommend Twinings chamomile herbal tea, or something similar, also dark chocolate (not full fat milk chocolate)

Another massive thing i will mention too, keep busy im in the process of re-decorating two rooms, this alone has dropped my anxiety from 9/10 to 2/10, and please take note this is very important, NEVER EVER drink energy drinks, these things are pure poison to the body in about 10 different ways, i call them "canned anxiety" at one point france banned them all completely, to be perfectly honest they need to be banned worldwide, theyre absolutely no good for the body in any way.

But going back to coffee, yea, by all means have a small one in the morning and a small one at mid-day, but late afternoons should be avoided at all costs for the sake of sleep and panic attacks.

I know America has a big coffee culture, they do love the stuff, its boomed here in the UK in the past 5 years too, ive never seen so many coffee machines on the shelves of currys!

Please dont let anxiety dictate your life, its all about portion control, easy does it always wins the race in the end.

Look after yourselves folks

[DustingMyselfOff]

Good advice, Lavender.
If I miss the taste I can always drink decaf. I would never dare drink an energy drink, I won't even drink soda. Water and coffee and occasional tea are my only beverages. And yes, when I am engrossed in a major project my anxiety is much better, but I also want ot be able to have days where I do nothing but relax and enjoy them. Baby steps..... years of anxiety and a fast pace won't be fixed in a month.
Sue

[lavender]

I love painting! lol, from walls to model trains hehe, bought myself a professional airbrush recently i absolutely love it! no more horrid smelling canned spraypaints! they are an incredible tool to have i tell you.

I do N gauge model railways, such a great hobby to get into and so relaxing and rewarding, when im at the baseboard doing modelling i literally forget the world!

[ankietyjoe]

You don't have to stop it forever. At one point in my life I used to drink 2-5 strong coffee's a day and ultimately gave it up completely by switching to decaf.

Recently however, I've re-introduced one or two real coffee's again and it seems to be fine. By real, I mean good ground coffee through our espresso machine at home. I take them relatively strong, and black. The key thing here though is that I've been 'recovered' from anxiety for a couple of years. I think it's only at that point that your body can take the stimulant without reacting with too much adrenaline.

I can feel the effects of caffeine much more than I used to, and I think I always will now. I also know 100% when I've had enough, some days I'll only have one cup.

[DustingMyselfOff]

Everything in moderation. I don't ever want to give anything up completely because then your body reacts strongly when the item is re-introduced (either intentionally or accidentally). If I could stay at 2-3 cups a day I think that's a good number.
Sue

[ankietyjoe]

Everything in moderation. I don't ever want to give anything up completely because then your body reacts strongly when the item is re-introduced (either intentionally or accidentally). If I could stay at 2-3 cups a day I think that's a good number.
Sue

I don't agree with that. If you're struggling to recover, then quit. Let go of past vices. My body didn't react strongly when I reintroduced it, although it would have done if I had a triple espresso.

[pulisa]

If you are happy with and enjoy your 2-3 cups of coffee a day I'd say stick with that, Sue. I'd disagree that caffeine is a vice provided it's not drunk later on in the day. We all need to have things in life we enjoy in moderation?

[ankietyjoe]

That's fine, but my point is about people struggling to recover. My observation is that DMO is struggling to recover. Caffeine is a significant stimulant, and known to aggravate anxiety. Just because you're used to it, doesn't mean it's not having a negative effect.

[DustingMyselfOff]

Thanks for the thoughts and replies. I actually agree with both of you: if I were still struggling with anxiety that I couldn't seem to get under control, then it would definitely be time to try cutting caffeine completely. But, for the past week or so I have been feeling pretty darn good mentally and mostly anxiety free. Not sure what or why, just grateful, and also know that it's apt to sneak back up on me when I least expect it.

I really think my anxiety ebbs and flows when things change physiologically, mostly my fluctuating TSH levels. I also notice more anxiety if I indulge in sweets too much, probably set off by blood sugar issues?

I still remember my doctor, who I adored, not even batting an eyelash 30 years ago when I told him I drank about 10 cups of coffee a day and asked him if I should try to cut back. He said that of course I should try to bring that number down but that that intake wasn't the reason for my "all of a sudden" drastic increase in anxiety and panic attacks. He said that we should be able to get it under control without me making any drastic dietary changes because if I were getting away with that much coffee before, to all of a sudden have it be the main cause of my increased anxiety was not likely and he didn't want me to put any additional stress on my body by trying to go through caffeine withdrawal.

Thanks again - appreciate all opinions and comments.
Sue

[ankietyjoe]

I still remember my doctor, who I adored, not even batting an eyelash 30 years ago when I told him I drank about 10 cups of coffee a day and asked him if I should try to cut back. He said that of course I should try to bring that number down but that that intake wasn't the reason for my "all of a sudden" drastic increase in anxiety and panic attacks. He said that we should be able to get it under control without me making any drastic dietary changes because if I were getting away with that much coffee before, to all of a sudden have it be the main cause of my increased anxiety was not likely and he didn't want me to put any additional stress on my body by trying to go through caffeine withdrawal.



This is bunkum I'm afraid. The stress of withdrawal is minimal and short term.

Your Doctor was isolating a potential cause of anxiety at one cause, which is almost never the case. Stress is almost always a compound trigger, and doesn't always have to be perceived as stress. People who love to succeed at work (for example) and spend 65 hours a week at the office drinking gallons of coffee.....100% stress. We're simply not designed to live that way, and our minds and bodies suffer over time because of it. Not to mention all the other little side project stresses that life has a habit of throwing our way on top of the pile.

Once anxiety hits, it's not a linear slope down that you can simply turn around and walk back out of. It's like falling off a cliff, and in most respects means that something you could handle yesterday, can't be handled any more. You have to come back to absolute basics to truly let your system recover.

I'm glad you're feeling better now though. It sounds like you're finding the post corporate balance that you need right now :)

[DustingMyselfOff]

Hi Joe.
I agree with your explanation of stress and anxiety, and I, too, was always looking for that ONE thing that caused it so I could eliminate that and be anxiety free. Now that we are anxiety experts, we know that's not possible nor the case. And looking back, yes, I think he probably should have told me to slowly work my way out of caffeine, but with all that was going on in my life at that point, it was probably the one thing that was keeping me upright and functional (albeit filled with anxiety).

Actually, now that I'm not working and living that 65 hours a week stress of a global job, I do understand that there is not ONE magic bullet (or pill) that will make it all go away. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if anyone who is required to continue that stressful lifestyle would be able to get a handle on their anxiety very well because that job stress is a necessary evil.

I'm just grateful that I am on my way out of it, and wish I had the answer for those who are 20 or 30 years behind me and struggling with this.
Sue

[ankietyjoe]

Hi Joe.
I agree with your explanation of stress and anxiety, and I, too, was always looking for that ONE thing that caused it so I could eliminate that and be anxiety free. Now that we are anxiety experts, we know that's not possible nor the case. And looking back, yes, I think he probably should have told me to slowly work my way out of caffeine, but with all that was going on in my life at that point, it was probably the one thing that was keeping me upright and functional (albeit filled with anxiety).

Actually, now that I'm not working and living that 65 hours a week stress of a global job, I do understand that there is not ONE magic bullet (or pill) that will make it all go away. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if anyone who is required to continue that stressful lifestyle would be able to get a handle on their anxiety very well because that job stress is a necessary evil.

I'm just grateful that I am on my way out of it, and wish I had the answer for those who are 20 or 30 years behind me and struggling with this.
Sue

I have a couple of takes on this, from the perspective of also working in a stressful job when I lived in London. I don't think it is a necessary evil. I think it's a subconscious choice for a lot of people to believe that it's what they MUST do. A lot of people work 50-70 hours a week to pay for the things they don't need. I know it's a tired old cliche to say so, but when I left that job in London and moved down the the South coast in the UK, my eyes were opened. I think it's common in the USA to measure success only in terms of financial gain or box ticking achievements. Now I have kids, I realise that success is pretty much just not being an a55hole and raising happy, confident children. Everything else is just BS.

For example. Paying $1000 for a new phone, but really paying $1500 over three years because you're effectively leasing it....and then staring at it for 5 hours a day while your life slips by has got to be a mental health problem, right? But you go to a coffee shop (topical) and witness almost everybody doing it. Madness, madness.

And in terms of magic bullets, meditation IS the magic bullet. It deals directly with the part of the brain that creates the anxiety in the first place. It's not possible for meditation not to work. If it's not working for you, then you're not doing it right, period. I know it sounds stupid and maybe even arrogant to say, but I genuinely believe it's true. The only exception to this is trauma based anxiety (real trauma) because that works in a very different way.

[DustingMyselfOff]

I agree with the madness of spending more money than we need to. The first thing I did when I stopped working was get rid of my $60,000 vehicle and instead am driving a $26,000 vehicle. That was my first of many more cutbacks and I hope to make "being frugal" one of my new hobbies and challenges.

Regarding meditation, I do believe you when you say it's the magic bullet, and I've heard and read that SO many times that it must be true, but I just can't seem to find a practice that works for me that isn't a guided meditation. Those are great when you can have access to the audio assistance, but there are times throughout the day and night that I want to meditate, even for 5 minutes, but have no idea how to do it. I put myself in a quiet place with no distractions but then have no idea what to do with my brain. I try chanting a mantra, I try counting backwards from a very high number, I try picturing peaceful scenes, etc. Any suggestions on how to meditate without guided assistance?
Sue

[ankietyjoe]

Meditation is like juggling. No....hear me out.

If you explain juggling to somebody you'll tell them to throw a few things in the air and then catch them alternately with each hand....right? It's gonna be easy isn't it?

But no. Practice. If you (or anybody) applied the same logic to juggling as most people do with meditation they would proclaim after a few days or even a few weeks that TRUE juggling is impossible. But it's not, it's just practice.

First thing to do is set yourself a schedule. 5 minutes in the morning, and 5 minutes in the evening. 5 minutes is more than enough to begin with. Do it at the same time every day.

Secondly, all you do with your brain is slowly re-focus your attention when it wanders. And it will wander. Repeatedly. If you focus on your breathing (which I still recommend) then choose exactly what about your breathing you want to focus on. It could be the movement, the sound, the sensation of the air in your nose etc. Anything. Then just focus on that. And when your mind goes elsewhere every 5 seconds just re-focus on the breathing. There is no way you'll stop the random thoughts/wandering, but that doesn't matter at all. The point here is the gentle re-focusing. You keep doing that for weeks/months and it works. One day you might find a great sense of relief out of it, the next day it might be frustration, but it's that practice of not judging your thoughts, emotions and even bodily sensations that creates the long term effects of meditation.

When you say you haven't found the practice that works for you, it's possible that your expectations are out of sync with what meditation does. A guided meditation can be more of a relaxation tool, and there's nothing wrong with that. It can help take you to a place that you can't get to yourself yet. Perhaps you're expecting the same results from 'real' meditation which will never be realised.

The expectation should not be calm or enlightenment with meditation. All meditation is is re-focusing practice. I would start with that.

[DustingMyselfOff]

Ugh, give me a suggestion for anything other than "focus on your breathing". I hate that statement and it's so over-used in so many aspects of life. I get very irritated when I try to focus on my breathing - I don't hear myself breathing, I don't "feel" the air moving through my nose, there is nothing about breathing that I can focus on. What if I tap my fingers or something? Can I focus on something more tangible?
Sue

[ankietyjoe]

Ugh, give me a suggestion for anything other than "focus on your breathing". I hate that statement and it's so over-used in so many aspects of life. I get very irritated when I try to focus on my breathing - I don't hear myself breathing, I don't "feel" the air moving through my nose, there is nothing about breathing that I can focus on. What if I tap my fingers or something? Can I focus on something more tangible?
Sue

There's a reason it's used a lot, but for meditation it's because it requires no effort to do. Finger tapping is more of a distraction exercise used to intercept anxiety in CBT, and not suitable for meditation.

There are many other things you could try and focus on though. Visually you could use something like a candle (focus on the flame), a water feature etc. I think it's easier at the start to focus on something audible though so maybe try and find something you like using like white noise, the hum of a fan, running water or a constant tone. I don't believe music is meditative at all. The point is to have something benign to focus on, something that you can move your awareness back to when your mind wanders. Not something that in itself can provide stimulation (music, tapping etc).

[DustingMyselfOff]

Wow, you're really helping me to get the drift of what meditation is supposed to be, and I'm learning a lot. I'm still thinking it's going to be a real struggle for me but as you've said, PRACTICE. And it makes sense that someone who's life has been full of anxiety would find it a struggle to meditate. My most prevalent thought when reading your reply was: "How long can I possibly focus on a white noise or the flicker of a candle? I'll hear it (or see it) and then think, OK, I saw the flicker or heard the repetitive sound, now what? How much can I focus on something mundane and repetitive?"

I guess that's the whole point, and it seems I have a LOT of practice to do.
Sue

[ankietyjoe]

Wow, you're really helping me to get the drift of what meditation is supposed to be, and I'm learning a lot. I'm still thinking it's going to be a real struggle for me but as you've said, PRACTICE. And it makes sense that someone who's life has been full of anxiety would find it a struggle to meditate. My most prevalent thought when reading your reply was: "How long can I possibly focus on a white noise or the flicker of a candle? I'll hear it (or see it) and then think, OK, I saw the flicker or heard the repetitive sound, now what? How much can I focus on something mundane and repetitive?"

I guess that's the whole point, and it seems I have a LOT of practice to do.
Sue

This 'and now what' attitude is quite common. There's an expectation that you meditate a couple of times and a dramatic transformation is going to happen. Meditation literally changes your brain physically, it rewires it. This has been scientifically proven. Now, the rewiring that happens is undoing 10, 20, 30 years or more of bad habits. It would be unusual to see any profound changes in the short term. What I found was that after several weeks I had an experience or intuition that something was happening. It was a period of profound depression, and after the meditation session it lifted considerably because all of a sudden I realised that one day it would go, so therefore it 'was cool'.

I think in some respects there's a goal driven attitude in the USA that on one hand 'gets shit done', but on the other hand places immense pressure on the mind. Without contrast to that ideal, without rest and awareness there can only be anxiety. It's very similar here in the UK now.

As you are realising, there is no 'and now what'. The what..is now. Does that make sense? That moment of awareness and focus IS the point. So...when you start your meditation and you think 'how long can I focus on this', that's the trigger for you to re-focus on the subject of your meditation without judgement. Don't question the time or the success of your meditation, simply re-focus.

You may also find mindfulness complements your meditation practice too. The book by Mark Williams is worth a read as it instructs in the technique of mindfully going about daily tasks. For example, if you sit down and eat an apple you focus your attention only on eating the apple. You focus on the texture, taste, temperature etc etc. It sounds benign, but it's powerful (over time). You are basically doing the opposite of everything you've done your whole life. Multi tasking is overrated, and your anxiety kinda proves that. Just because you can, doesn't necessarily mean you should.

[MyNameIsTerry]

Sue, just to chime in with Joe mentioning Mark Williams, if you check out the signature on my post the first post in that thread that will take you to his website where the guided meditations from his first book are free to download. There are a couple not in the book too. There are more exercises in the book. In the book they start with breathing thypes because they are seen as the foundation but there are others.

The first exercise in the first book is an example of how Mindfulness is applied to an everyday activity such as eating.



Here is an example starter meditation practice from Professor Mark Williams book:


The Raisin Meditation


1. Holding
Hold it in the palm of your hand or between fingers, etc, approach it like it's the first time you've seen on, consider weight, does it throw a shadow.

2. Seeing
Really see it, use full attention, find it's highlights where the light shines, the darker hollows, folds, ridges.

3. Touching
Explore it, turn it over, feel the texture, how does it feel between thumb & forefinger on the other hand.

4. Smelling
Put it under your nose. With each inbreath consider scent, consider no scent, lit it fill your awareness.

5. Placing
Put it to your mouth noticing how your hand & arm does knows where to go automatically. Place it gently in your mouth, noticing how your tongue receives it. Without chewing, explore the sensations of having on your tongue for 30 seconds or more if you choose.

WARNING: Step 5 not advised with a Rowntrees Fruit Pastel (thats all mine
:D
)

6. Chewing
Take a conscious bite, notice how it affects the object and your mouth, notice taste, feel the texture whilst biting, chew slowly but don't swallow, noticewhat happens to your mouth.

7. Swallowing
See if you can detect the first intention to swallow as it enters your mind, experiencing it with full awareness before swallowing. Notice what how the tongue prepares it for swallowing. Try to follow the sensations of swallowing it and if you can, consciously sense it as it moves down into your stomach. Repeat if any more in your mouth. After each swallow, notice what your tongue does.

8. After-effects
Register any after-effects, is there any aftertaste, what does does the absence of the raisin feel like, is there an automatic tendency to find another?

Spend 20-30 seconds on each of these steps.

Now spend a few minutes writing down your thoughts.

[DustingMyselfOff]

Thanks, Terry, on my way to the fridge to get a grape (don't have any raisins) and then off to the link in your signature. :)
Sue

[WiredIncorrectly]

Today my partner made me a coffee. We had ran out of t-bags. She drinks decaffeinated. I drank it, and then shortly after started sweating. I remember Google "why causes butt sweating". I also started to feel anxious. Immediately I asked if the coffee was caffeinated. Positive. It's really not good at all.

[ankietyjoe]

To come back to this thread, I just wanted to say that I'm back on proper coffee on a daily basis now with no ill effects, so don't think it's gone for good if you enjoy it. I limit myself to two cups (fairly strong) in the mornings otherwise it makes me feel jittery, but that's normal. I have zero anxiety from coffee any more, but about 18 months ago it would have knocked me on my ass for a day if I had any.

It's about letting your mind and body come back down to where it used to be, then it can better handle the stresses you are exposed to on a daily basis again. Coffee being a source of stress.

[Carnation]

I've been on decaf for several months now.
The first week or so I didn't notice any change in the calm of my anxiety, but I do now.
I've noticed a massive improvement and with the help of an occasional chamomile tea, no fizzy drinks, just water, I would say it's helped my lightheadedness and blurry eyesight by incredible amounts.
I wouldn't go back to normal tea and only have a weak latte very occasionally. That's half a teaspoon of coffee.
It's just not worth losing your life over a cup of coffee or strong tea!

[Lola-Lee]

I honestly can say coffee doesn’t effects me,never has am I wrong?

[Carnation]

No, you are not wrong, it depends on the person and their constitution. But it is known for its adrenalin rush.

[Lola-Lee]

Thanks for your reply Carnation.:D
its nice too get one Thanks.

[pulisa]

You enjoy your caffeine, Lola!

[ankietyjoe]

I honestly can say coffee doesn’t effects me,never has am I wrong?

My argument here would be that of course you're not wrong for not feeling ill effects, as everybody is different, but would you suffer with anxiety less if you didn't have it, or would your recovery be faster? I have no idea, but I guess it's possible.

But if you're enjoying it, what the hell!

[KK77]

I honestly can say coffee doesn’t effects me,never has am I wrong?
Quite right too! I like to spit my coffee out on unsuspecting people all the time :D

[pulisa]

There's nowt like a good ol' CaffAttack!

[MyNameIsTerry]

Thanks, Terry, on my way to the fridge to get a grape (don't have any raisins) and then off to the link in your signature. :)
Sue

Sue,

I was searching through some old posts and was prompted to a book I have. In the post I was talking about some of the Mindfulness in the book and this may be of interest to you as it isn't so much about breathing, although that always is the beginning, and offers movement style forms:

https://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/showthread.php?169503-*******Articles-of-interest*******/page4

See the first half of post #31.

[DustingMyselfOff]

Wow, Terry, thanks so much for doing that searching! The book and the exercises look very interesting and promising. Can never have too much mindfulness and meditation, right? And it's good to have many tools in our toolbox so we can shake things up and not become bored. :)
Sue

[Alexandrah]

If you are drinking 5 cups of coffee per day, of course, it will harm your body and mental health. Obviously, drinking too much coffee when having anxiety is not the best choice you can ever make. When having anxiety, it is better to consult a therapist and not get addicted to alcohol, medicine and caffeine. Personally, when I was in depression, I chose to give up drinking coffee for a while. Now, I feel better, and I drink coffee just once per day, in the morning. I like to make coffee at this Essenza Mini machine, if you need a review of it check here https://www.friedcoffee.com/nespresso/best/